We recently had this discussion on our web board and thought it would nice to see what other people think.

Should modern firearms be considered a type of martial arts weapon or not? Why?

Dan

I've been surprised that more modern martial arts don't teach the use of at least the pistol--both the obvious issue of marksmanship and the more CQC-oriented issues of using and retaining it when in tight, etc.

Is it a martial arts weapon? I know that gunpowder based weapons have been taught in ninjutsu and the bayonet has its own martial art in Japan. Logically, the answer has to be yes.

But...in my gut, I don't see it as being akin to the things we do in what we call the 'martial arts', and in my gut I feel it isn't.

I would have to take the opposite opinion in that I feel that firearms are indeed an intrigal part of the martial arts. No, perhaps not what we would consider martial arts in a traditional setting. But what is 'Martial'? It is [loosely] the art of war an/or defense. To protect oneself. Look at the 'farmers' instruments that were used because 'real' weapons were banned to the commoner. Now there are forms for these tool/weapons as well as formal/traditional classes.

I have incorporated the use of the pistol into my system. I begin teaching it's use around Brown belt [as an option]. This is partly from an American police standpoint, but mainly from an Israeli Instinctive Shooting standpoint. Points covered for example;

Type of weapon
Ammunition selection
Cover & concealment
Condition 1 & 3 carry
1 handed chambering
1 handed reloads
Tactical reloads
Officer down drills
VIP drills
Instinctive shooting
Shooting with reactionary hand

And various other topics. I believe the firearm can be part of the overall 'toolbox' in self defense.

I also strongly believe in a citizens right to keep and bear arms for lawful self defense.

This should prove to be an interesting forum. :cool:

:asian:

Certainly, why not?

Martial arts include clubs, knives, batons, swords, why not guns?

Shooting can be an art, science, or an ugly but effective way to save your own life.

Also I am a firm believer that the martial artist should learn any reasonable skill in life to increase changes of survival. That to me means Kenpo, changing tires, handgun use & disarm, how to keep enough cash on hand to not run out of gas at 2am on a deserted road, calm in difficult confrontations, awareness of surroundings. These are all the tools of a warrior (ie someone who would rather fight to survive in adversity than die resigned).

That's how I see it. I'm open to other points of view & am interested in what turn this may take. :D

Well said Jill :)

I certainly think one should think in terms of a fight, not just a gunfight. A poor craftsman only has one tool. One must consider the totallity of the fight. I train for all the eventualities that I can. In that regard the pistol(or shotgun or carbine for that matter) is just another option.

Having basically agreed, I log my dry firing and shooting different in my log book than my martial arts weapons practice. I suppose there is no real reason though.

Heck yah!


If you are learning self defence shame on youre instructor if thier not teaching firearms.

In this changing worl we live in criminals are getting more and more violent and hand guns are their prefered weopon, besides when is the last time you have seen or heard of a katana fight in the middle of the road? Try concealing a bow staff ect.


:goop:

I'm not sure what is meant by a "martial arts weapon" but firearms are certainly useful weapons for self-defense.

Not only do I agree with Firearms being taught as a martial arts weapon (both offensivly and defensively) Id go one step further anmd suggest that more arts should incorporate martial arts training while wearing body armor as well...

A lot of you are in law enforcement and the military... so you know how much more limited your movement can be in a vest... but how many of you train in one?

I think that firearms should also be incorporated as a martial arts weapon. It is an extention of yourself. We have weapons which we throw or are projected out. So why not use guns too.

Plus, you might find yourself in a situation where you will have to use a gun and knowing how to handle one could save your life.

As for the body armor. That is a touchy one since in chicago you can not own or possess one unless you are in law enforcement or security related where you need one for work. You can be arrested for having a bullet proof jacket here.

I think that is terrible because people should have a right to defend themselves from criminals and not fear procecution from the system when wearing a bullet proof vest. Also, unless you are in law enforcement or security (armed) or have a special permit own a hand gun in the city of chicago. You can buy one in the suburbs with your FOID card but you can't bring it into the city because you will be charged with possession of an unregistered weapon.... Mayor Daleys way of messing with the honest citizen....

:soapbox:

Chicago Green
Dragon :asian:

Technopunk, is a full suit of body armor (I know I'm being vauge) roughly comparable to being all bundled up for a snowy winter storm?

Originally posted by Elfan
Technopunk, is a full suit of body armor (I know I'm being vauge) roughly comparable to being all bundled up for a snowy winter storm?

Welllll...

Since I only have a Vest, I couldn't say...

I would assume the uper body mobility would probably be ALMSOT as resrticted in heavy winter clothing...
(I can't say for SURE as I wear an oversize biker jacket and I'm RARELY bundled up from the cold...)

Chicago Green Dragon,

Is the body armor law Chicago proper only??? The last time I checked in Illinois it was only illegal to wear Body armor durring the commision of a crime... has that law changed or is that Just a chicago law as part of Mayor Hussein er, Daley's bid to make sure that as he continues to break the law blatantly no one can oppose him?

Thanks Technopunk.

Unfortunately in today's society, while I feel this would be a real asset, I think it is unrealistic. You are opening yourself to civil and criminal law suits if you teach firearms to any but military or law enforcement personnel without being a certified instructor of firearms by somone such as the NRA and even then it could be very touchy.

Seig does have a point.

I have to laugh sometimes. The politicians make it so hard for decent people to defend themselves esp with firearms. For some odd reason its like they think that criminals go through the legal process of all the paperwork and background checking for purchasing a firearm.
All these politicians do is hinder law abiding citizens from purchasing the neccessay items for self defense.

Criminals will always have guns whether its against the law or not to have them. Politicians should wake up and smell the coffee. Here in Chicago our aldermen can carry concealed weapons. But, they are the first behind Adolf Daley our mayor to say no guns in the city. I wonder how many of them have ever even taken a class in anything firearm related. Prob. a very small number if any. Scarey isnt it.

:soapbox:


Chicago Green
Dragon :asian:

We in the UKF believe that the knife and the gun are the the Sumurai weapons of today. They are the only weapons that we train in as part of our corriculum. Our founder Grandmaster Michael Robert Pick is currently undergoing very specific weapons training from one of Chuck Taylor's (considered by many to be the the Guru of all combat shooters) top instructors that will qualify him to to be an instructor at that level. When completed Mr. Pick will be putting together a specific course that will be a requirement for Black Belt. Currently the requirement is passing a gun safety program and proficiency in operating a firearm.

Marcus Buonfiglio
Southwest Regional Director
Universal Kenpo Federation

Seig does have a valid point in regards to valid qualifications. The vast majority of Martial arts instructors do not have the qualifications or credentials to teach firearms, at least as far as there use. Retention/disarm is fine. They may know how to use a firearm, but that does not qualify or count towards valid credentials. NRA is valid and has been since it's inception. Same for Police and possibly even military. I would not be concerned about liability in and of itself. You can be 'liable' for simple taking martial arts in general if the opposing attorney decides to go that avenue.

Know the qualifications/credentials of any instructor.

Know Federal, State and local laws in regards to the possesion and use of a firearm. You have the means to take a life...take it seriously.

Know your chosen pistol/revolver/long gun.

Practice as safetly as possible the worst case senerios. Standing in a booth and shooting paper does not prepare you for the real world. Seek the most advanced, intense, realistic training that you can reasonably afford.

I have been training with W. Hock Hochheim since the early 90s He has always tought gun and rifle defence and counter gun and rifle tactics as part of his program. He employees some of the top police and military instructors around. a lot of my martial arts friends think of it as a touchy subject and think that gun training goes against the martial way and all that jaz. Thats why I dont say I'm a martial artist anymore and say I study the Combative Arts.
I learn only things that I feel will save my ass. The gun is high on the list.
I would bet that not even 20% of or troops in Iraq are martial artist, yet they are kicking some real butt. And 95% has nothing to do with hand to hand. So to all the "martial artists" out there, I would say learn to use and defend against modern firearms and like munitions.
The men and women over in the Gulf are the real warriors.

Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

Thats why I dont say I'm a martial artist anymore and say I study the Combative Arts.

Combative arts ...I like that alot! Thank you, I may have to appropriate that term in the future. :)

:asian:

The martial arts have to change with the times... It has always been like that. In the days of archery, MA was a bit different. In the age of cavalry, it was different. As technology and combat tactics improve, hand-to-hand combat needs to change as well to adapt to the new environments.

Originally posted by MartialArtist
The martial arts have to change with the times

To me it's a question of whether one emphasizes the martial or the art. The former must change; the latter means to preserve the past.

That is not necessary true. Ever heard of the expression "state of the art"? That would implies that the "art" evolves and grows, and not necessary restricted to preserving traditions. Besides, "traditions suck rock" :).

Many martial arts were developed and practiced at a time when moden medical and physiology knowledge was not known to the practitioners then. In other words, they were flying blind. It is our duty to question and evaluate the tradition and the so called "old knowledge". It is detrimental to look upon martial arts as some ancient secret knowledge with perfection distilled in them by the ancient wisemen. Martial art is alive and must be allowed to evolve, to be examined, tested, evaluated, and improved, with the cobweb and garbage tossed out.

Originally posted by redfive
I have been training with W. Hock Hochheim since the early 90s He has always tought gun and rifle defence and counter gun and rifle tactics as part of his program. He employees some of the top police and military instructors around. a lot of my martial arts friends think of it as a touchy subject and think that gun training goes against the martial way and all that jaz. Thats why I dont say I'm a martial artist anymore and say I study the Combative Arts.
I learn only things that I feel will save my ass. The gun is high on the list.
I would bet that not even 20% of or troops in Iraq are martial artist, yet they are kicking some real butt. And 95% has nothing to do with hand to hand. So to all the "martial artists" out there, I would say learn to use and defend against modern firearms and like munitions.
The men and women over in the Gulf are the real warriors.

Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

The Delta counter terrorism commandos do not train in martial art beyond what they have learned in the regular services.

Richard Marchenko, founder of SEAL Team 6, openly dismissed martial art.

On the other hand, the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, (the US civilian version of the Delta) is heavily trained in martial art, mostly on the individual agent's own initiative.

what about the japanese system the way of the gun

I was a damn good shooter before I met my teacher. He had only a rudimentary knowledge of firearms, but it was he who turned me into a master shooter.

The mental discipline that is so sadly lacking in modern arts is of great help in using a firearm. The act of firing is similar to that of moving meditation like you find in tradtional Asian archery or blade throwing. I have seen people go nuts in a combat and had them ask me how I could keep so calm under fire.

A person studies a combative martial art to survive on the street. To calm his mind and improve himself he takes the Japanese art of kyudo as well. What is wrong with him shooting a pistol instead of a bow for the same purpose, but with greater uses in the modern world?

I have heard of some pistol competitors meditating before shooting. I once heard an interview with a man who said he prefered to meditate while shotting. He was a world champion as I remember.

Bump this up and see what others think now. :)

Firearms are the most efficient weapons currently available for personal protection...it's that simple.
As I've said in past discussions, I feel that anyone who is serious about self-defense should have at least a working knowledge of the various firearms and action types out there. If you don't want to carry one or don't "like" guns fine (BTW, I think this attitude is pretty dumb), but by knowing a little about the weapon you can at least render it safe if you had to disarm someone.

MAny Martial Arts will use weapons in class...but many will do excersises from a DEFENSIVE veiwpoint (defense AGAINST the gun, how disarm a gun, knife, etc) rather than offensive use of a weapon. For you FMA practioners its the ultimate "largo mano"! You already have a weapon mentality, a gun is no different then a knife or stick, just another tool. Practice doing your footwork patterns with a firearm. The same footwork that helps you get position with a knife or stick works to turrent your firearm as well.