I have noticed and have actually been told by several Kodanja that there is a very distinct difference between very specific ways of addressing instructors.

The traditional title in Korean for an Instuctor is Sa Bom Nim, of course there are other titles, depending on the rank of your instructor and your organization. The "Nim" is also obviously the honorific term of respect, so depending on the context and your rank, the "nim" can stay or go. I'm wondering if others have run into this distinction as well.

What I'm talking about:
_________, Sa Bom Nim
Sa Bom Nim ___________
Master ___________
(Insert the last name of the instructor in question in the blank)

So has anyone ever heard of a distinction between the 3? Are there other ways that you use to address your instructor (aside from sir or different titles, such as Jo Kyo, Kyo Sa, etc)?

While I was in Korea, my instructor there allowed me to use them interchangeably and told me that they were all the same as far as he was concerned. In the US, I have heard from several different people, yudanja and kodanja alike that there is a specific difference, in fact, down to the level of: Use "Sa Bom Nim _______" for YOUR instructor, use "_________, Sa Bom Nim" for OTHER instructors and use "Master __________" for a Kodanja who is not a certified Sa Bom Nim.

Ive never been told that there is a distinction between any of those. When im speaking to a senior regardless of rank i always just use sir/ma'am whether it be my own instructor or the Grandmaster. When i refer to them in the third person i will sometimes say Sa Bom Nim, and sometimes Master depending on the situation. If i don't know them i will use Master since, as Craig stated above, some Kodanja are not certified Sa Boms and i am not always aware of their certifications. Generally the most consistant use of an honorific that i am exposed to is during the opening and closing of class and then the "Nim" is always retainined. So, at the beinning of class we will bow once to the lead instructor then at the end of class we will bow once to the lead instructor of the class and then to the highest ranking individual in the class (as long as they are at least a Yudanja). Again in this case the Nim is always used.... i.e.: Sa Bom Nim, Kyo Sa Nim, Jo Kyo Nim, Sun Beh Nim...

Actually i think in the back of the USSBDMDKF gup manulas it explains some of this... i will have to take a look when i get home.

In our Dojang they have different titles depending on you Dan rank.

For example:

1st Dan: Sen Seung (Nim)
2nd Dan: Bu Kyo Sa (Nim)
3rd Dan: Kyo Sa (Nim)
4th Dan: Bu Sa Bum (Nim)
5th Dan: Sa Bum (Nim)

This should be obvious, but our western ways here in the US is to use title then sirname, whereas in the east they use sirname then title. Koreans also say their last first-middle name (or last, first middle).

I've asked some higher ranking members about this before, asking if they prefer the last name title order, and their response was "we're here in America, so just use title last name".

In our Dojang they have different titles depending on you Dan rank.

For example:

1st Dan: Sen Seung (Nim)
2nd Dan: Bu Kyo Sa (Nim)
3rd Dan: Kyo Sa (Nim)
4th Dan: Bu Sa Bum (Nim)
5th Dan: Sa Bum (Nim)

Understood - there are many different titles, just like in English...you can call someone "teacher," "Professor," "Instructor," "Assistant Instructor," "Department Head," and so on when referring to them in the third person or even directly in some cases.

So in your Dojang, is there a standard format not for the title that you use, but the way that it is used? Is it ALWAYS name first, then title? Or Title, then name? Do they allow the use of just "Master?"

So in your Dojang, is there a standard format not for the title that you use, but the way that it is used? Is it ALWAYS name first, then title? Or Title, then name? Do they allow the use of just "Master?"

More often than not we just use the title, unless it is the BB and Candidate class, then we use title then name.

When I took tae-kwon-do we referred to the teacher as "Mr" followed by his last name, might just be an American thing.

That is done in a lot of schools that don't use the traditional Korean, so the title question doesn't really apply. the Korean equivalent of Mr. would just be sonsangnim - but ALWAYS with the surname first, then the title sonsangnim.

We use Mr., Ms. Mrs. when addressing senior members who have no certification or other rank title. This applies to all people senior to us from gup level all the way to Sam Dan.

We use Mr., Ms. Mrs. when addressing senior members who have no certification or other rank title. This applies to all people senior to us from gup level all the way to Sam Dan.

We do the same, although I find it odd that we use the Korean for some people (those with titles) and not for others - those without. I'm a big believer in one or the other....I think I'm going to start using sonsangnim and see what people say!

I like my school.

Adults use first names. We don't use the title Master or Grandmaster at all. The kids will call us Mr./Ms. sometimes, but we don't make an issue.

We use this terms daily:

Black Belt candidate to 1st DAN: Bo Kyo Sa Nim (assistant instructor).
2nd to 3rd DAN: Kyo Sa Nim (Instructor).
3rd DAN & candidate to 4th DAN: Bo Sa Bom Nim (Senior instructor)
4th to 6th DAN: Sa Bom Nim (Master Instructor).
Examiner/judge during a belt test: Shim Sa Nim (any DAN)
7th Dan or up: Kwang Chang Nim (Grand Master)

Sensei has always worked, regardless of rank. :asian: You'll know who they are when they start teaching. :)

Sensei has always worked, regardless of rank. :asian: You'll know who they are when they start teaching. :)
Sensei?

At a Korean martial arts class?

Generally a bad idea.

Sensei?

At a Korean martial arts class?

Generally a bad idea.
Sorry, there are just so many TKD people on the board, and you guy's start most of the threads, I have to get my 2 cents in somewhere. :) I will try and stick to my own kind. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif

We use this terms daily:

Black Belt candidate to 1st DAN: Bo Kyo Sa Nim (assistant instructor).
2nd to 3rd DAN: Kyo Sa Nim (Instructor).
3rd DAN & candidate to 4th DAN: Bo Sa Bom Nim (Senior instructor)
4th to 6th DAN: Sa Bom Nim (Master Instructor).
Examiner/judge during a belt test: Shim Sa Nim (any DAN)
7th Dan or up: Kwang Chang Nim (Grand Master)

Do you always call every instructor with their full title? Do you do it in the Korean way (name first, then title) or the American way (Title first then name)? Have you ever been told that there is a difference?

For me they just say Sa Ba num, with everybody else it is sir or mam. The Korean termonology really means little in my school, but we use it for tournaments with other instructors thst need that recognition.

Maybe this is a good place for this...

In case anyone is wondering, here is a list of titles that can be used in Korean. There may be more, if you know any more, please post them as well. I am still curious in the protocol of how you use them, but I figure we can get this out of the way!

Keep in mind - you may or may not use some of these terms. You may have never heard of them. The term "nim" (님) should be added to every one of these when addressing your senior. (If there is no entry for the third category (Hanmun), it is because I haven't found the hanmun translation yet)

Romaja - Hangul - Hanmun - English
chido sabôm - 지도사범 - 指導師範 - Master
choboja - 초보자 - - Beginner
chodan - 초단 - 初段 - 1st Dan
cheongsa - 정사 - - senior master
doju - 도주 - - founder
hubae - 후배 - - junior
jokyo - 조교 - 助教 - assistant
jokyosa - 조교사 - 助教師 - assistant instructor person
kodanja - 고단자 - 高段者 - master, senior dan person
kwan weon - 관원 - - student member
kwanjang - 관장 - 館長 - head of school
kyobeom - 교범 - 敎範 - assistant of junior instructor
kyosa - 교사 - 教師 - instructor
moosulga - 무술가 - - martial arts student
pukyosa - 부교사 - - assistant instructor
pusabeom - 부사범 - 副師範 - assistant instructor
sabeom - 사범 - 師範 - instructor
seonsaeng - 선생 - - mister
shimsawon - 심사원 - - examiner
seonbae - 선배 - - senior
yudanja - 유단자 - 有段者 - midnight blue (black) belt holder
yugupja - 유급자 - - colored belt holder

Notice that there are several ways to say the same thing. Take assistant instructor for example or instructor for that matter, there are at least four different ways to say them, each of which have a slightly different connotation and meaning in Korean. We use them interchangeably in America, but in Korea, they have very different meanings.

I should also emphasize that in Korea, the PROPER way to address someone is ALWAYS Name first, then title. In America, it is our cultural tradition to address someone as Title first, then name. There are apparently Americans that think that there is more to this cultural difference than there really is, which is why I'm asking how your schools do it.

If your school doesn't use much Korean, then it really won't be much of an issue. This is one issue where mixing Korean and English is a bit of a gray area. Since you are talking to a person, the culture that they come from comes into play. TECHNICALLY, the three ways that I have presented are exactly the same. No difference. We MAKE there be a difference.

I am still very interested in how your schools do it or if you have ever heard that there is some implied difference.

Sorry, there are just so many TKD people on the board, and you guy's start most of the threads, I have to get my 2 cents in somewhere. :) I will try and stick to my own kind. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif

Not an attack and didn't mean it to come across that way. You just replied to a post in the Tang Soo Do section, not General.

Though there are some Korean schools that use Japanese terminology.

Way to go, John. Scaring away the karate people again... ;-)

seonsaeng - 선생 - - mister


Isn't this the Korean equivalent of sensei (先生)? I usually see this used in the context of "teacher," but looking at some other resources I do see its usage connected to "mister." Very interesting.

Isn't this the Korean equivalent of sensei (先生)? I usually see this used in the context of "teacher," but looking at some other resources I do see its usage connected to "mister." Very interesting.

Great observation! The hanmun translation of 先生 is 선생. I have seen the word seonsaeng used in both situations; as mister and as teacher. Although from my conversations with Koreans, it seems that the more common usage is in the teacher connotation. Although In Martial Arts scenarios, seongsaeng is used as "mister" as well. In the Korean dictionary, there are two words for mister, one of which is seonsaeng, the other is 미스터 or miseuteo. Pronounced phoenetically, it sounds like "mee su taw" familiar, huh? I have NEVER heard that word used in actual Korean conversation. Seonsaengnim, I have heard.

The Kanji word, 先生 (sensei) is made up of two separate kanji words (or in this case, hammun): 先 - sae (first) and 生 - saeng (to be born). 師 - 사 - "sa" literally means teach and is the root of our most commonly used word for teacher.

I've never run into a differentiating situation for whether the surname, name, title, or whatever come in any certain order for Korean usage.

However, in the Japanese/Okinawan arts, we say the title of an instructor before OUR instructor's name but AFTER the name of someone who is a known instructor, but not ours. I would assume that the Korean may be similar, but I really have never heard any info on this.

Graham Sensei (as opposed to Sensei Graham, since I am not your instructor)

I've never run into a differentiating situation for whether the surname, name, title, or whatever come in any certain order for Korean usage.

However, in the Japanese/Okinawan arts, we say the title of an instructor before OUR instructor's name but AFTER the name of someone who is a known instructor, but not ours. I would assume that the Korean may be similar, but I really have never heard any info on this.

Graham Sensei (as opposed to Sensei Graham, since I am not your instructor)

Graham Sensei,

Thank you very much, that is actually EXACTLY what I was looking for! Do you know if this is a Japanese arts thing? Is it in your Dojo only or is this done in all Japanese Dojos? I know that some of the Dojangs within my (Korean) style do it this way, but I've never heard of any rule or requirement. Do you know if this is Japanese culture or where it came from?

Thanks again!

My experience with this being the manner of dojo etiquette comes from Masters Jay S. Penfil (Tang Soo Do, Tang Soo Jutsu, Shotokan) and Peter M. Carbone (Kobujutsu, Isshin Ryu). Sensei Carbone has traveled to Okinawa 26 times, he is taking my father along for his 27th trip. According to my Sensei, this is the manner by which we should address instructors in the okinawan arts (karate). I can call Master Carbone my Sensei so I use this word before his name, as in Sensei Carbone, but his instructor Nakamoto Kiichi (I hope I spelled that right) is not yet my personal instructor so when I meet him in May of this year I will refer to him as Nakamoto Sensei. Likewise, Master Jay S. Penfil is my instructor, so I can call him Sensei Penfil.

I can't say for sure whether this is also customary for all the japanese arts. As far as general culture goes, I can ask the woman who teaches japanese language and culture at our school if she can tell us more.

Do you always call every instructor with their full title?
Yes.


Do you do it in the Korean way (name first, then title) or the American way (Title first then name)? Have you ever been told that there is a difference?

American way.

We give high importance to korean terminology in our Dojang, it's even part of the gup tests. Terminology, history, numbers, body parts, etc.

I filled in the blanks from your post...

1. <Last Name>, Sa Bom (Usually when writing a letter or e-mail)..Leave off the "Nim"

2. Sa Bom Nim <Last Name> (in person)

3. Master <Last Name> (in Person)

4. Or you could call the instructor "Sa Bom Nim" (in person)

R. McLain



I have noticed and have actually been told by several Kodanja that there is a very distinct difference between very specific ways of addressing instructors.

The traditional title in Korean for an Instuctor is Sa Bom Nim, of course there are other titles, depending on the rank of your instructor and your organization. The "Nim" is also obviously the honorific term of respect, so depending on the context and your rank, the "nim" can stay or go. I'm wondering if others have run into this distinction as well.

What I'm talking about:
_________, Sa Bom Nim
Sa Bom Nim ___________
Master ___________
(Insert the last name of the instructor in question in the blank)

So has anyone ever heard of a distinction between the 3? Are there other ways that you use to address your instructor (aside from sir or different titles, such as Jo Kyo, Kyo Sa, etc)?

While I was in Korea, my instructor there allowed me to use them interchangeably and told me that they were all the same as far as he was concerned. In the US, I have heard from several different people, yudanja and kodanja alike that there is a specific difference, in fact, down to the level of: Use "Sa Bom Nim _______" for YOUR instructor, use "_________, Sa Bom Nim" for OTHER instructors and use "Master __________" for a Kodanja who is not a certified Sa Bom Nim.

I filled in the blanks from your post...

1. <Last Name>, Sa Bom (Usually when writing a letter or e-mail)..Leave off the "Nim"

2. Sa Bom Nim <Last Name> (in person)

3. Master <Last Name> (in Person)

4. Or you could call the instructor "Sa Bom Nim" (in person)

R. McLain

Sir, is this the protocol for your Dojang or your organization?

Sorry, there are just so many TKD people on the board, and you guy's start most of the threads, I have to get my 2 cents in somewhere. :) I will try and stick to my own kind. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif

there are so many TKD people on the MartialTalk message board....usually found in the TKD section...

This is the TANG SOO DO section....

As for titles....

I generaly agree with rmclain on this one. Though my instructor is the Kwan Jang Nim of my association so I say Kwan Jang Nim...

Sir, is this the protocol for your Dojang or your organization?

No, just a Korean language protocol.

R. McLain

No, just a Korean language protocol.

R. McLain

Correct, which is again, the basis of my question. this is how it is done in Korea, but many American Dojangs mix things up between Korean and American configurations and English. I'm just wondering what others do and how it is explained.

Correct, which is again, the basis of my question. this is how it is done in Korea, but many American Dojangs mix things up between Korean and American configurations and English. I'm just wondering what others do and how it is explained.

Hi MBuzzy,

Sorry, I had to quickly answer in the last post due to a time constraint. I didn't mean for it to be so short.

This is the way my teacher teaches the titles part. Also, when he writes me letters/e-mails or personally addressed people it follows the same. I saw in one of my old Korean-language books that this was addressed as well - only not for martial art titles, just Mr., Mrs. etc. But, same format.

R. McLain

http://www.tangsoodo.pl/terminologia_podstawowe_zwroty.php

I thought this might help. The way it was explained to me was the Nim basically means sir and is dropped off when using they name so John Doe could either be referred to as Sa Bum Nim or Sa Bum Doe Although we have learned proper protocol though, we refer to our instructors as Mr., Mrs., Ms., Sir, Mame or Master when applicable.

Sensei?

At a Korean martial arts class?

Generally a bad idea.

I met someone who's family is from Korea and speaks Korean as a first language that practiced TKD and referred to his dobahk as a gi.... go figure.

Hi MBuzzy,

Sorry, I had to quickly answer in the last post due to a time constraint. I didn't mean for it to be so short.

This is the way my teacher teaches the titles part. Also, when he writes me letters/e-mails or personally addressed people it follows the same. I saw in one of my old Korean-language books that this was addressed as well - only not for martial art titles, just Mr., Mrs. etc. But, same format.

R. McLain

no problem at all! Thanks for the response!

That is right, in all Korean, the name is ALWAYS first, the title last. Their names are even "backwards." (lastname, first name, middle name)

http://www.tangsoodo.pl/terminologia_podstawowe_zwroty.php

I thought this might help. The way it was explained to me was the Nim basically means sir and is dropped off when using they name so John Doe could either be referred to as Sa Bum Nim or Sa Bum Doe Although we have learned proper protocol though, we refer to our instructors as Mr., Mrs., Ms., Sir, Mame or Master when applicable.

This is only partially true. While sir is a good way to explain "nim" to an American, that isn't exactly it. In english, we actually add words or explicitly state our respect....by the names that we use and the titles that we attach (sir, professor, etc). They do the same thing in Korean, but the respect is implicit - it is actually a PART of the word. If I can talking to a child, I can say "anjo" for example...but if I'm talking to an elder, I may say "anjo shyip shiyo" at the very least. If I'm talking to an "equal" I can just say "anjoyo." It sounds to an american like the same word with just some different ends....but they are different WORDS, used to address different people. The "nim" is a term of respect. It is placed there as an indicator of respect and based on who you are talking to. If you were talking to your instructor - in korea - and only said "sa bum doe," it would be considered disprespectful. Just like if I were to say to a senior "anjo" - very rude.

I suppose that it comes from the way that Korean is written. It is written in syllables....Most americans assume that each syllable in korean is a different word. they are not, those are just syllables of a word. So, in PROPER romanization, Sa bom nim (사범님) as we say, actually becomes "sabeomnim" - one word. Not three different words. The "nim" (님) character, is called an "honorific" just like "shyip shiyo" "impnika" "yo" etc.

In our Dojang this is how we use the terms.....

1st dan---Jyo ko
2nd dan---Kyo sa
3rd dan---Bu Sa Bom
4th and above---Sa Bom

In our Dojang this is how we use the terms.....

1st dan---Jyo ko
2nd dan---Kyo sa
3rd dan---Bu Sa Bom
4th and above---Sa Bom

So is this to say that ALL Cho Dans are called Jo Kyo within the MGK? If you reference post #18 (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1106091&postcount=18), I've listed a number of the possible titles, how they are assigned to people, based on rank, teaching ability, certification, etc is completely up to the organization.

So in the MGK, how are the terms used? Name, then title? Or Title, then name? (i.e. Jo Kyo Smith or Smith, Jo Kyo)?

Greetings to all,
Craig, this is an commonly asked question that always gets different answers based on the level of ego that is at the head of a given association/organization.

I spoke with GM Andy Ah Po several years ago. He stated that the term Nim should only refer to the senior most person in the room. ie, if you are in the romm with me as the senior, I would be Sa Bom Nim Penfil. If you were in the room with both of us. I would just be refered to as Sa Bom Penfil and he would (at the time we had that conversation) be Sa Bom Nim Ah Po, as he was the senior.

With all of the new grand masters everywhere with all of their new exciting titles I have chosen a new title for myself as well...

My new title is:
Ultra Supreme Grand Master-Ace Boon Coon-Baddest Mo Fo Low Down Around This Town-Penfil (HA, HA, HA!!! Just kidding)

With all of the egos running aound we are now seeing many calling themselves things such as "Great Grand Master", "Chief Grand Master", and so on...

I met last year with Sensei Carbone's instructor Sensei Nakamoto Kiichi. Sensei Nakamoto Kiichi is 82 or 83 at this time. He is a certified 10th Dan in four systems of Okinawan martial art and currently the most senior Okinawan on the planet, regardless of system. I asked Sensei Carbone; What should we call him when he gets here? Soke? Grand Master???

Sensei Carbone said; Just call him "Sensei".

I asked; Surely if there is anyone that has earned the right to be called Grand Master or a similar title it is Sensei Nakmoto, Kiichi, right???

Sensei Carbone responded; Yes, but you must understand Okinawan culture. They consider it egocentric and rude to expect others to call you master or grand master. If he is signing a certificate or writing a formal letter he will sign his name and affix his stamp that says "Soke" as this is his official titile, but in the spoken word, just call him Sensei.

If this man who has achieved so much over such a long life and history of giving to the martial arts world is only called "Sensei", who am I, or who is any of us to seek higher recognition?

This is why I have chosen to drop the Master title and be called Sensei this past year...


All the best,


Sensei Jay S. Penfil