The Super-Duper Big Toe Defense!

[celtic_crippler]

What?

Huh?

Apparently, if one of my big toes is up and the other is down it's impossible to knock me out.

Anyone want to test this theory?

http://www.maniacworld.com/karate-no...nullified.html (http://www.maniacworld.com/karate-no-touch-KO-nullified.html)

[hkfuie]

And when doing the Super-Duper Big toe defense,remeber: don't muscle it. Use your TOE CHI!!!! :roflmao::roflmao:

[arnisador]

I've seen George Dillman use this explanation at a seminar. Eh...I question it on several levels.

[tellner]

My only question is why any sane grownup still listens to his "no-touch knockout" claims without laughing out loud.

[stickarts]

I've seen George Dillman use this explanation at a seminar. Eh...I question it on several levels.

Ditto.

[hkfuie]

What?

Huh?

Apparently, if one of my big toes is up and the other is down it's impossible to knock me out.

Anyone want to test this theory?

http://www.maniacworld.com/karate-no...nullified.html (http://www.maniacworld.com/karate-no-touch-KO-nullified.html)

Hey, Celtic Crippler, do you want to test this theory?

I would like to wager my toe chi against the no-touch knockout. Hey, if i get knocked out, I'll probably survive, and it's the only way I'll know for sure.

Now, I just need to find someone who can do the no-touch knockout. Anyone? We could videotape it and post it on Youtube!

[hkfuie]

Hey, Celtic Crippler, do you want to test this theory?

I would like to wager my toe chi against the no-touch knockout. Hey, if i get knocked out, I'll probably survive, and it's the only way I'll know for sure.

Now, I just need to find someone who can do the no-touch knockout. Anyone? We could videotape it and post it on Youtube!

VideoTAPE! LOL! Showing my age. That makes me feel so OLD!

Do cameras still use tape? Instead of making me look old, now my ppost makes me look DUMB! I'd better shut down my computer now. LOL!

OK, back on topic.

Who knows the no-touch knockout and lives close to Kansas City?

[arnisador]

My only question is why any sane grownup still listens to his "no-touch knockout" claims without laughing out loud.

The belief in the "free lunch" is hard to shake. If you know the secret, you don't have to train hard and break a sweat!

[punisher73]

No touch KO's do exist...in the same fashion that stage hypnosis exists and works. If you take a person who is open to it and they believe in it, then it does work.

But, to take that a step further into the realm of the "Darth Vader Throat Crush" and "Chi Balls" (not to be confused the cheeze balls, which are quite good and tasty with crackers) is just dangerous. It should be taught in the context of what it is, stage hypnosis.

The other doubt I have is, almost all of you body's sensors for balance etc. are in your big toe. That seems counterintuitive to me to say that lifting one up is some type of mystical "force switch" that protects me.

Of course I could be wrong, maybe somewhere, someday I will learn that if you clench your buttcheeks, flex your bellybutton while lifting your pinky toe on a Tuesday morning, I can deflect his chi and KO him first!

[celtic_crippler]

Was he talking about "no-touch" at that point in the clip? Hell, I thought he meant any kinda knock out! LOL

You can tell the difference between a "real" knockout and one that may be ....."influenced."

When somebody goes unconcious upon contact with say...a punch... they most often drop straight down in a heap. (It's a gravity thing.)

When they're not really going unconcious (as with a chi-blast or a "be-healed" by an evangelical) then the person falls back, and not down.


The reality of it or "OMG...he hit me!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&feature=related

[tellner]

c_c, the first time I heard the ******** "His toes must have been crossed" excuse was when the Grand Master of Dill-do got publicly embarrassed. A French scientist had volunteered to be no-touch knocked out. The attempt was a spectacular failure with the skinny physicist standing there with a gentle smile on his face. The invincible chi-whiz was going through all sorts of contortions looking increasingly stupid.

Not a good day for the fans.

[DavidCC]

c_c, the first time I heard the ******** "His toes must have been crossed" excuse was when the Grand Master of Dill-do got publicly embarrassed. A French scientist had volunteered to be no-touch knocked out. The attempt was a spectacular failure with the skinny physicist standing there with a gentle smile on his face. The invincible chi-whiz was going through all sorts of contortions looking increasingly stupid.

Not a good day for the fans.

In that Nat. Geo show, that scientist did report feeling a tingling or buzzing sensation, but was not influenced to fall down.

[DavidCC]

Was he talking about "no-touch" at that point in the clip? Hell, I thought he meant any kinda knock out! LOL

You can tell the difference between a "real" knockout and one that may be ....."influenced."

When somebody goes unconcious upon contact with say...a punch... they most often drop straight down in a heap. (It's a gravity thing.)

When they're not really going unconcious (as with a chi-blast or a "be-healed" by an evangelical) then the person falls back, and not down.


The reality of it or "OMG...he hit me!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&feature=related

When practicing kyusho, at least the way it is practiced by the folks at Kyusho International, tehy describe 3 level sof "knock out"

when practicing the goal is to use the lightest force that will cause a reaction. When applying, the plan is to use as much force as you have. A lot of people see the light contact PRACTICE and think that KI is teaching their people to use light touch in a fight.

Teh 3 elvel sof "KO" as described in KI practice are:
level 1 - a discernible body reaction such as a weakness in the knees or involuntary eye movements. Difficult to detect on a You Tube video, but obvious in person / on your partner.

level 2 - disorientation, loss of balance "physical/mental disassociation". Could result in falling, or stumbling; dazed, but not completely unconcious

level 3- brief or prolonged unconciousness

So what you are describing above, falling back, could in many cases be level 2. also, some level 3 KOs invovle an involuntary muscle reaction, specifically I am thinking of a stiffening of the legs, that could cause an unconcious person to fall backwards, especially if struck front-to-back. not all KOs invovle rag-doll go-limp reaction (see Rich Franklin vs Nate Quarry)

[celtic_crippler]

When practicing kyusho, at least the way it is practiced by the folks at Kyusho International, tehy describe 3 level sof "knock out"

when practicing the goal is to use the lightest force that will cause a reaction. When applying, the plan is to use as much force as you have. A lot of people see the light contact PRACTICE and think that KI is teaching their people to use light touch in a fight.

Teh 3 elvel sof "KO" as described in KI practice are:
level 1 - a discernible body reaction such as a weakness in the knees or involuntary eye movements. Difficult to detect on a You Tube video, but obvious in person / on your partner.

level 2 - disorientation, loss of balance "physical/mental disassociation". Could result in falling, or stumbling; dazed, but not completely unconcious

level 3- brief or prolonged unconciousness

So what you are describing above, falling back, could in many cases be level 2. also, some level 3 KOs invovle an involuntary muscle reaction, specifically I am thinking of a stiffening of the legs, that could cause an unconcious person to fall backwards, especially if struck front-to-back. not all KOs invovle rag-doll go-limp reaction (see Rich Franklin vs Nate Quarry)

Did you read the "most often" part?

[14 Kempo]

I've seen this before, but nevertheless, it's as funny or funnier every time ...

... oh wait, he wasn't trying to be funny. That is almost as funny as Jim Carrey's portrayal of the Karate Instructor on In Living Color.

[thetruth]

When practicing kyusho, at least the way it is practiced by the folks at Kyusho International, tehy describe 3 level sof "knock out"

when practicing the goal is to use the lightest force that will cause a reaction. When applying, the plan is to use as much force as you have. A lot of people see the light contact PRACTICE and think that KI is teaching their people to use light touch in a fight.

Teh 3 elvel sof "KO" as described in KI practice are:
level 1 - a discernible body reaction such as a weakness in the knees or involuntary eye movements. Difficult to detect on a You Tube video, but obvious in person / on your partner.

level 2 - disorientation, loss of balance "physical/mental disassociation". Could result in falling, or stumbling; dazed, but not completely unconcious

level 3- brief or prolonged unconciousness

So what you are describing above, falling back, could in many cases be level 2. also, some level 3 KOs invovle an involuntary muscle reaction, specifically I am thinking of a stiffening of the legs, that could cause an unconcious person to fall backwards, especially if struck front-to-back. not all KOs invovle rag-doll go-limp reaction (see Rich Franklin vs Nate Quarry)

I know you say it's done light in practice and hard in application the problem is that a lot of the time the points when struck lightly are not struck in the same manner they are when you are punching someone at full speed and given perfect practice makes perfect well I think you are opening yourself up to danger. I have seen the drills that K.I. people practice and they are dangerous and not practical and certainly don't allow one to just up the force and turn into practical self defense. Also I have heard a number of high level Kyusho International instructors claim that tapping is more than just practice, that they apply it that way in the street. As for the toes(and don't forget the position of the tongue in the mouth)crap well believe that and you'll believe anything.

Cheers
Sam

[DavidCC]

I know you say it's done light in practice and hard in application the problem is that a lot of the time the points when struck lightly are not struck in the same manner they are when you are punching someone at full speed and given perfect practice makes perfect well I think you are opening yourself up to danger. I have seen the drills that K.I. people practice and they are dangerous and not practical and certainly don't allow one to just up the force and turn into practical self defense. Also I have heard a number of high level Kyusho International instructors claim that tapping is more than just practice, that they apply it that way in the street. As for the toes(and don't forget the position of the tongue in the mouth)crap well believe that and you'll believe anything.

Cheers
Sam

I know you have some experience with KI but their practice and curriculuum has undergone extensive revision in the last 2 years. Your opinion of what they do grows more out-of-date every day.

I've never heard anyone with a brain in their head say that they will just be tapping points in the middle of a real altercation.

"the points when struck lightly are not struck in the same manner they are when you are punching someone at full speed" not sure what you mean... what 'manner' are you referring to?

"given perfect practice makes perfect well I think you are opening yourself up to danger" are you implying that you practrice full speed and power in your training? That is just as implausible as some of Dillman's BS.

"I have seen the drills that K.I. people practice and they are dangerous and not practical and certainly don't allow one to just up the force and turn into practical self defense." We train the kyusho points within the context of our kempo techniques. My friend Gary trains them within the context of his aikido techniques. My friend Jason trains them within the context of his shotokan techniques. My friend Chad trains them within the context of his systema practice... Drills are drills. Drills build attributes and skills in isolation but would not make sense if used as-is when attacked. Are there drills that you train that would not be practical in a fight? What style do you train?

I practice qigong a little and even I know that the position of the tongue and the tension created or released in the muscles inside the torso is important. Perhaps you reject qigong and also internal styles of CMA but there are many who do not, and for those that do train these styles, the position of the tongue is relevant.

[DavidCC]

Did you read the "most often" part?

LOL did you read the "could" and "some" and "could" again and the "not all" parts?

[Nolerama]

So... It's okay to get into a sloppy fight, get beat up, and justify it with "They weren't 'Believers' in my system so that's why I lost."??

Tongue in the wrong place? Toes alternating on the ground?

How about my fingernails being clipped too short? Does that affect the chances of me being the victim of a No-Touch KO?

I don't believe it works. And if I did, I'd still question the percentage of such a technique's accuracy/effectiveness.

Toes... I had a roommate who COULD knock someone out by taking off his socks... But that's another art: Athlete's Foot-kun-do.

[DarkPhoenix]

.Toes... I had a roommate who COULD knock someone out by taking off his socks... But that's another art: Athlete's Foot-kun-do.

Sounds like an offshoot of the ancient art Fun Ki To Jam.

[Nolerama]

Sounds like an offshoot of the ancient art Fun Ki To Jam.

Yeah, but in my art, we can throw fireballs... If you believe.

[DavidCC]

So... It's okay to get into a sloppy fight, get beat up, and justify it with "They weren't 'Believers' in my system so that's why I lost."??

Tongue in the wrong place? Toes alternating on the ground?

How about my fingernails being clipped too short? Does that affect the chances of me being the victim of a No-Touch KO?

I don't believe it works. And if I did, I'd still question the percentage of such a technique's accuracy/effectiveness.

Toes... I had a roommate who COULD knock someone out by taking off his socks... But that's another art: Athlete's Foot-kun-do.

I do know a couple of people who have experimented with no-touch stuff but nobody I know has any idea that no-touch KOs are for use in a fight. It is just that - experimentation, not application. And for some of them one of their biggest concerns is - how can we know if something is happening here beyond the psychological effects of the teacher-student relationship and suggestibility etc.

And of course anyone that would make the statement you put up there is an idiot, and nobody I know would train with anyone who thought that way.

Now if you reject the ideas behind internal systems and qigong etc then none of it will make any sense to you and some of it will seem strange, but many people have first-hand experience, training, and understanding of things that you do not have. No slight to you, just your experience is different than theirs. So you can make jokes about toe position and GD has certainly given the MA world plenty to laugh at, for sure, but there are many people out there who are doing things that you reject as impossible.

In many martial arts the inter-realtionship between very small details is considered to be important, even down to the position of fingers and toes and eyes and tongue and wether or not you have your anus clinched or relaxed even.

For some teachers "when he does this, hit him like this here" is as deep as they get... and there are many students for whom that is enough.

[celtic_crippler]

If I eat a lot of beans and grab my bic I can do chi-blasts. :flame:

[jks9199]

I've seen this before, but nevertheless, it's as funny or funnier every time ...

... oh wait, he wasn't trying to be funny. That is almost as funny as Jim Carrey's portrayal of the Karate Instructor on In Living Color.
The thing about that no-touch "master" who gets KOed is that none of the students ever really lose their balance. You watch them, they aren't really being knocked over. They lean back, and then fall. The guy who's whip-sawing around is best...

[Deaf Smith]

What I've never understood is if these things are so great and able to overcome so much resistance, why hasn't this 'master' or some of his students went into full contact tournaments and became world champions.

I mean, that would really put it on the map, right? Instead of this funny video that looks so hokie.

Deaf

[thetruth]

I know you have some experience with KI but their practice and curriculuum has undergone extensive revision in the last 2 years. Your opinion of what they do grows more out-of-date every day.

I've never heard anyone with a brain in their head say that they will just be tapping points in the middle of a real altercation.

"the points when struck lightly are not struck in the same manner they are when you are punching someone at full speed" not sure what you mean... what 'manner' are you referring to?

"given perfect practice makes perfect well I think you are opening yourself up to danger" are you implying that you practrice full speed and power in your training? That is just as implausible as some of Dillman's BS.

"I have seen the drills that K.I. people practice and they are dangerous and not practical and certainly don't allow one to just up the force and turn into practical self defense." We train the kyusho points within the context of our kempo techniques. My friend Gary trains them within the context of his aikido techniques. My friend Jason trains them within the context of his shotokan techniques. My friend Chad trains them within the context of his systema practice... Drills are drills. Drills build attributes and skills in isolation but would not make sense if used as-is when attacked. Are there drills that you train that would not be practical in a fight? What style do you train?

I practice qigong a little and even I know that the position of the tongue and the tension created or released in the muscles inside the torso is important. Perhaps you reject qigong and also internal styles of CMA but there are many who do not, and for those that do train these styles, the position of the tongue is relevant.

Have you not practiced the K.I drills where you punch back and forth hitting points on the arm with your fists(this is just 1 example)? These drills require points to be hit or they are useless as self defense so if you miss you will get smacked in the face. As for perfect practice well that means even when practicing slowly your techniques are perfect. If for the sake of the drills your are altering the strikes to hit points well this is where the 'opening yourself up to danger' part comes in(you could even use the example at the start of this paragraph).

In order to make certain points effective does one not have to hit them at certain angles? So altering ones punches to produce these angles will not necessarily improve the punches technique and most likely will take away from the effectivness of the strike if you miss the pressure point.

I haven't trained traditional Karate for years as my instructor was a knob. In the last year I have joined a school that trains BJJ, kickboxing and self defense of a more reality based nature (just a description, not taking away from traditional styles) with Filipino influences and some Floro Fighting Systems. Actually no we don't train drills or techniques that would not be practical in a fight and we test the stuff as hard as we can with protective equipment.

I am no longer interested in an art for pure arts sake and doing things that don't work in reality. Granted in BJJ there are techniques that are more suited to the competition mat but in isn't hard to separate what will work in the real world and what won't.

Lastly, over the years I was training I personally heard Evan Pantazi, Mark Klein and another high ranking K.I instructor say they had use tap outs in real situations (not necessarily all of the time of course but just that they had)

I can't be bother cutting and pasting the quote section so I hope I covered everything.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

[searcher]

What is abffling as all get out is why the Jay family got involved with this crap. The Small-circle ju-jitsu that Wally Jay created is a wonderful system and now it seems to be getting tainted by the magical world of no-touch. What is this world coming to?

[Nolerama]

What is abffling as all get out is why the Jay family got involved with this crap. The Small-circle ju-jitsu that Wally Jay created is a wonderful system and now it seems to be getting tainted by the magical world of no-touch. What is this world coming to?

More people in the world believing in Santa Claus. The Western need for Instant Gratification. General laziness. A genetic mutation, due to a diet of processed foods and corn syrup, that has more and more Americans born with defunct big toes.

[punisher73]

I know you have some experience with KI but their practice and curriculuum has undergone extensive revision in the last 2 years. Your opinion of what they do grows more out-of-date every day.

I've never heard anyone with a brain in their head say that they will just be tapping points in the middle of a real altercation.

"the points when struck lightly are not struck in the same manner they are when you are punching someone at full speed" not sure what you mean... what 'manner' are you referring to?


I really hope that this is true about revising the curriculuum. I remember seeing an article by GD a couple years ago and he had to hit three points all at the same time to KO the person, the one point was on the foot of the opponent and he was pressing it with his big toe. Come on now...good to show theory maybe of how points along the same meridian multiply the effect, but to be showing it as a fighting technique is insane.

I have never heard someone say that they only "lightly tap" a point though, that was one of the things I do remember about them was that some points are pressed, rubbed or struck. So maybe that is where is was misinterpreted.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I suppose in theory if your big toe is up your focus is on that sending your intent downwards and rooting you. However that is a huge stretch for me to use a theory like that.


The Toe is interesting. LV1(Da Dun) is a well-jing point for the Liver.

LV2 next to the the big Toe is a Spring point for the Heart.

LV3 is a Stream-shu point and Source point for the Spleen.

This explains the differences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture_point

If I were doing No touch knockouts I would use this as my explaination.

Of course this theory IMO is hard to swallow but it's my only one.

[arnisador]

What is abffling as all get out is why the Jay family got involved with this crap.

It came out of the Triple Impact seminars that Wally Jay, Remy Presas, and George Dillman used to do together to get a bigger draw than any one of them could alone. Each of them traded techniques with the other. I saw Remy Presas pull off the preacher's KO once, but if he picked up much of it he didn't share it broadly. He certainly adopted a lot from Wally Jay.

[tellner]

Tell you what, True Believers.

I will be happy to undergo a real test of the No Touch Knockout. I'll do it the same way as the Physicist. But to satisfy whatever lame excuse the Dillman apologists come up with this time I'll do it wearing no clothes barring the minimum required to allow the film onto YouTube. And we'll agree beforehand on what I need to do to make sure I'm not crossing my toes or breathing out through my left nostril and in through my sphincter.

State the assumptions.
Set up the controls before doing the experiment.
See if it works without letting wishful thinking determine the outcome.

Contract me privately if you're interested. And contact James Randi while you're at it. There could be some money in it for you. If you're too pure to touch the money a lot of charities are going begging during these hard times.

[astrobiologist]

Nice!

I personally do about eleven-thousand big toe crunches every day, just so that when that one day comes that I'm dumb enough to be passive while being attacked and I allow my attacker to slowly trick me into a lulled state of hypnotic reflex I will surely be able to execute the nastiest Super Duper Big Toe Defense the world has ever seen...

I think Dillman's a fake... I have heard that he knows a lot about technique and martial strength, but the whole no-touch knockout thing is just ridiculous... He's become lost in his own subjective galavanting as 'the master'...

I'm a biochemist. I would gladly subject myself to the no-touch knockout right next to Tellner. Mr. Dillman definitely deserves his place in the Bull-shido...

[DavidCC]

Tell you what, True Believers.

I will be happy to undergo a real test of the No Touch Knockout. I'll do it the same way as the Physicist. But to satisfy whatever lame excuse the Dillman apologists come up with this time I'll do it wearing no clothes barring the minimum required to allow the film onto YouTube. And we'll agree beforehand on what I need to do to make sure I'm not crossing my toes or breathing out through my left nostril and in through my sphincter.

State the assumptions.
Set up the controls before doing the experiment.
See if it works without letting wishful thinking determine the outcome.

Contract me privately if you're interested. And contact James Randi while you're at it. There could be some money in it for you. If you're too pure to touch the money a lot of charities are going begging during these hard times.

Might get a better response on a forum where there are people who are working on no touch KOs. I'm not aware of anyone here that is.

I know people that are, and they already doing this kind of thing and I don't think they don't need your help, and I don;t think they are interested in your opinion of what they are doing LOL

[Kwan Jang]

I will say this positive thing about Dillman and some of his people: some of his earlier work in pressure point applications was good. He and his people were also a good source for researching bunkai for traditional forms. They brought out a lot of the joint locks and grappling that were and still should be part of the "karate" syllabus. Still, I really think he went way off track with the no touch stuff. I have friends who are some of his senior dans and I gained a lot of useful things from them, but most of his guys have went way out there regarding the "no touch KO's" IMO.

[thetruth]

Here is a question? Did Dillman and his people research traditional bunkai or did they make up their own? I am not saying it wasn't correct some of the time, what I'm saying is that George Dillman didn't spend any quality time with Hohan Soken or Oyata so where did he research the bunkai. I know he had the diagrams from Soken and tried different things at home smacking people around in his lounge room with bean bags on the floor until the points worked (Kim Dillman was the first one to achieve this). To me if someone tests stuff at home and researches there, thats fine but it shouldn't be passed off as something it is not. Also the reason Dillman went onto no touch stuff was because he milked the pressure point thing as much as he could. He made millions off the crappy videos he released in the 80's and 90's and no touch stuff was something else he could peddle.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

[foggymorning162]

breathing out through my left nostril and in through my sphincter.

Hey if you can breath in through your sphincter I'm sure you won't need and toe chi to protect you from a no touch KO

[arnisador]

I will say this positive thing about Dillman and some of his people: some of his earlier work in pressure point applications was good. He and his people were also a good source for researching bunkai for traditional forms. They brought out a lot of the joint locks and grappling that were and still should be part of the "karate" syllabus. Still, I really think he went way off track with the no touch stuff.

Yup, I agree all the way. He had great applications--I don't know whether or not they were truly traditional--but he went astray.

[tellner]

To quote my teacher's teacher:


The truth is hard enough. Don't give them ********.

[Carol]

I call it...

Toe-Fu ;)

[Uchinanchu]

It sounds kinda like a 'Mr. Miyagism' phrase. "You no touch my toe, and I no kick your a$$!"

No touch knockout?! Toe chi protection?! Yeh, I'll buy that, and give me a large order of fries and a drink with that BS, as well. The really sad part about all this is that these guys wouldn't waste their time spewing their nonsense unless there was a market for it aka- gullible fools, willing to throw away their money on it.

[Hand Sword]

Hey it works! I saw it! Frank Dux (Van Damme) did it while fighting for his life in BloodSport! He made a fist with one hand, and waved his other across the face of a downed opponent- and he went to sleep! Of course it was only for a few seconds. he had to get elbowed and chopped to go down permanently. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Hey if you can breath in through your sphincter I'm sure you won't need and toe chi to protect you from a no touch KO


Interesting note Taoist thought that if you farted you lost Qi so they avoided the Onion family.

[thetruth]

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt7MGgxbhho&feature=related

You can't touch this