Are pressure point strikes practical? [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com

tellner

01-09-2009, 06:52 PM

A lot of times it's putting the cart before the horse. They can augment your skills, but they are among the least reliable and most finicky weapons in the martial arts arsenal.

Some of them work really, really well. Hit someone really hard on the base of the skull or crush the vagus nerve and you'll take the starch right out of him. The combat acupuncture is a lot less reliable. The acupuncture points aren't in exactly the same place on everyone. Sometimes a nerve strike that works like a charm on one person is completely ineffective on another. And pain-compliance is always chancy. It only works because people are reasonable enough to stop hitting you when they feel an unpleasant sensation. If they were reasonable they wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Twin Fist

01-09-2009, 07:06 PM

i teach my students pressure point stuff, but i teach them NOT to rely on it. Mostly because i learned the hard way that some pressure points dont work on some people.

DavidCC

01-09-2009, 07:17 PM

jks9199

01-09-2009, 07:58 PM

There are already a lot of good points, and to use Tellner's post as a bit of a starting point... it often depends on the pressure point. And the person, almost as much. You won't find lots of the pressure points & nerves in my forearms; I've had lots of people try. Sure they exist... but my anatomy just buries them too deeply to reach easily. Note that I'm more skeptical on the pressure point knockout type stuff; I've never seen those work on a non-believer. The nerves? Yeah, they can work! So can crushing anatomical structures. The more finicky a target is, the less likely it is to work in my own opinion and experience. So, strike the back of the head doing trauma to the medula oblongata... yeah, that'll work. So will catching someone on the button, at the point of the chin (either side or straight in, though the mechanism is different), pretty reliably. But trying to catch, in the heat of a fight, the temporo-mandibular nerve junction? That's a bit less reliable.

I've used some of the more general ones under pressure situations. Sometimes, they work. Sometimes, they don't. A lot depends on how much the subject is feeling in the first place...

And, while aim small-miss small is a very sound principle, you also have to be able to function well enough under pressure to aim at all! That's why I think Tellner put it well when he said it's often putting the cart before the horse.

Xue Sheng

01-09-2009, 09:43 PM

Are pressure point strikes practical?

Yes if you want to take the time...lots of time.. to train them.

My wife is real good at them but she is a TCM OMD from China and her intire adult life has been looking at acupuncture points. My Yang Sifu is pretty good at them too but he has been training over 50 years and is an old school acupuncturist from China and a western

But there are points that are much easier to get, mostly around joins. Why go for a forearm when on either side of the elbow joint there are 2 that are, by comparison to others, rather easy to find. But not that easy in a fight unless you have trained them, my Yang sifu, my wife and Dr Yang have all dropped me with those points.

I was told by my last Xingyiquan sifu that his sifu was pretty good at hitting them but again you are talking an old Chinese guy who has trained nothing by CMA his entire life.

So practicality comes down to how much time you want to put into training them.

If you do, go for the ones that are easy and close to the surface otherwise without lots and lots of training in being able to locate them at a moments notice and learning how hard you need to hit each point, they are not the same, it would be fairly useless and rather impractical.

JadecloudAlchemist

01-09-2009, 11:15 PM

As Xue said if you train in it for quite a while you may be able to pull it off.

But when the stuff hits the fan you are mostly going to take what is available or create an opening.

Some points like near the jaw,back of neck,between the eyes make sense in anatomy.

Going after things that require precise execution,proper depth in hitting or pressing is not practical in fighting which is a stressful,chaotic field.

Even Acupuncturist they need a steady hand to hit the point and if you seen a needle they are pretty thin!!

exile

01-09-2009, 11:50 PM

I think context is important here (as elsewhere, lol). If a fight is carried out as a pure exchange of strikes, the way a lot of people (though increasingly less than a few years ago) think of as the basic premise of arts such as karate and TKD, then pressure point attacks are indeed really chancy, at least if you rely on bullseye accuracy in going after very small, elusive places on the body. But in the context of a very different view of such arts—that a lot of their tactical arsenal includes controlling and manipulation, the 'locks, pins and throws' that we're hearing more and more about from a new generation of thinkers in both karate and TKD—the idea is that the defender will be cashing out these controlling moves in various ways, one of which is to force the controlled attacker into body attitudes where valuable pressure point targets can be exploited.

One of the pioneers of this view of pressure point use is the wonderful Rick Clark, he of 75 Down Blocks, which emphasizes the use of controlling techs, latent in familiar kihon movements, to set up strikes at the discretion of the defender. His own book on this, Pressure Point Fighting, integrates the use of pressure points with a view of kata and hyungs which we're increasingly familiar with from his work, Iain Abernethy's, Simon O'Neil's, Stuart Anslow's and a number of others who have tried to recover the holistic application of the karate based arts from the information concealed in their formal patterns. My feeling is that the use of pressure points makes far less sense on the (increasingly discredited) view of these arts as simple punch-kick-block systems than the far more rounded and versatile systems they originally were. So my own best guess to the answer to the OP question is, yes, pressure point tactics can be very useful, if you use the setups for them that are implicit in the kata, but much less so, if you see these arts in a far more limited way as just blocking and counterstriking.

thetruth

01-10-2009, 05:08 AM

"aim small, miss small"

you aim for "the ribs" you hit "the ribs"

aim for a pressure point on the ribs, sometimes you will miss and just hit "the ribs" and sometimes you will not miss the point.

It's not as hard as some make it out to be.

Due to the amount of pressure points and the differing angles etc required to activate them it is best to target them if your normal rib strike is able to hit an area with pressure points without altering the strike. So I basically agree as long as the normal strikes do not change just to add the points in. I believe if your mind is preoccupied with pressure points then your self defense will suffer as you are thinking about to damn much. As for the way the likes of Dillman or Kyusho International teach the application well it's entirely up to you if you believe that but it is at your own risk that you try to apply it when you are being attacked.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Skpotamus

01-10-2009, 06:20 AM

Archangel M

01-10-2009, 07:04 AM

On a passively resisting person (not fighting the applier or trying to pull away from them), I've seen them work maybe a little more than half the time. In all fairness, most were drunks or stoners needing escort out of somewhere. Some you could probably have set on fire and not got a reaction.

On an actively resisting person... I've yet to see anything besides a brachial plexus origin stun work (strike to the neck).

I agree. Unless you are in the business of detaining, escorting or immobilizing people I dont see enough payday for the effort required, if self-defense is your goal. If you want to know them just to know them then more power to you. Seeing the percentage of "gorss motor" strikes that actually land in real fights makes me a doubter of how "fine motor" skills are going to work. Try a bit of boxing and tell me how easy it is to land a plain old punch on something as big as a head against someone who knows how to slip, bob and weave.

championmarius

01-10-2009, 08:11 AM

I distantly echo Tellner and Xue's sentiments. They don't work on everyone, and the points do move around alot form body to body. It's worthwhile to know where the more common ones are, but don't put the cart before the horse.

If you happen to catch one, bonus! But don't hold out waiting for one, or put the entire encounter on it.

I don't implicitly aim for them, just the general area, they often are mechanically efficient targets anyways. If the point gets flipped, bonus. That being said, I like thinking if it like this.

I've heard it explained that the body is like a house, you have a structure, plumbing and power. the quickest way to make it uninhabitable is to destroy the structure, failing that, cut the power, and lastly go after the plumbing.

If I can knock out a wall, and cut the power to that section of the building, then more the better, but I'll take the wall and be happy with it.

seasoned

01-10-2009, 09:14 AM

I'm sure many people on MT practice the application of pressure point strikes, but how practical are they in a real fight? I'm not questioning whether they work or not. What I'm questioning is the chance that you could hit a spot on your oponent's body that is only a little bigger than the size of a quarter while they are moving around. Even if you have them in a hold they are going to be slipping around as much as they can.
Thoughts?

I think if we look to our traditional kata, or drills, whether striking or grapping, they will show us pressure point areas. Pressure point areas, are meant to distract the aggressors mind for a split second while we apply our art. Do we need to understand them better, yes, do we need to spend a lot of time with them, I think not. I prefer to “cross read“, and have many books pertaining to a wide variety of MA, to see where other perspectives fit into my base art. In doing this I have found that my art contained much more then I originally thought. Look to where grapplers grab and strikers strike, and this will lead us to many of these PP areas. It is not a matter of discovering “new” but rediscovering the old. I feel PP blend with what we already have, within blocks, strikes, and grabs. Adherence to good techniques will point the way. :asian:

Guardian

01-10-2009, 10:58 AM

I've always looked at things like this, if the opportunity is there, take it if your trained in it and use it. If not stick to what you know and if nothing else, go to the knees.:)

Brian R. VanCise

01-10-2009, 11:54 AM

I have found professionally that pressure points used in conjunction with positioning, joint locks, limb immobilization, spine control, strikes, etc. can work generally when you utilize the large pressure nerve points on the human body. (ie: points utilized by most police organizations) However if someone is doped up or really drunk then utilization of joint locks, spine control and limb immobilization is a better route to go. Will they work all the time? Nope. Are they another tool to have in the tool box? Yep. Have I used them in restraining uncooperative people ranging from slightly uncompliant to really violent. Yes. Would I rely on them as my only course of control? Absolutely no way!

On a side note I do not in any way advocate the farce that is no touch knockouts, etc. That is more mental hypnosis of students than anything else.

Phoenix44

01-10-2009, 01:22 PM

I think if your strategy is to specifically target pressure points in an emergency situation, when you're adrenalized, maybe off balance or you've had a couple of drinks, then I think it's a very unforgiving strategy. Very easy to miss, and you could just be wasting precious time. (I'm speaking from my medical viewpoint, and not strictly from a martial arts perspective.) Even if you're well trained in these strikes, you still have to consider your opponent's factors. He may be well "anesthetized," very muscular, or just wearing heavy clothing.

In my opinion, if you really, really want to hit pressure points, I'd suggest aiming for the neck. It's relatively exposed, there are massive plexes of nerves on either side extending down toward the clavicles, and you have the trachea in front. So even with so-so aim, a good shot will probably at least rattle the guy. If you're dealing with some muscular gorilla, all bets are off.

Twin Fist

01-10-2009, 01:22 PM

does ANYONE fall for the no touch knockout stuff?

:BSmeter:

Brian R. VanCise

01-10-2009, 01:54 PM

does ANYONE fall for the no touch knockout stuff?

:BSmeter:

Unfortunately their seem to be a plethora of people that do. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif

Nolerama

01-10-2009, 03:13 PM

If I was in a fight, it would be nice for my opponent to believe in no touch KOs.

"Haiiiyah!... huh?"

WHACK. Game over.

Hand Sword

01-10-2009, 03:25 PM

I would say that they are practical. As practical as any other method is at times, whether it's a specific hand strike or kick. However, as with the rest, it's all conditional depending on times and circumstances.

Xue Sheng

01-10-2009, 03:29 PM

does ANYONE fall for the no touch knockout stuff?

:BSmeter:

As I have said before... those who claim to have mastered the "No Touch Knockout" have sucessfully done one thing... taught thier students how to fall down.

ppko

01-10-2009, 10:12 PM

I am going to put my two cents in on this topic (all of you knew I would), are pressure points reliable yes they are. Its already been said but aim small miss small. Does this mean that I am searching for points, no I practice hitting the points in certain scenarios ie kata or just anything to make it easier for me to do it naturally in a real life situation. I will never fish for something that isnt given to me. There seems to be a lot of people that think that is all we depend on or beings they dont work on everyone they are useless, that is there oppinion my personal oppinion is that I practice them so if I hit it and it works the\n great fights over if I hit it and it doesnt just keep hitting till the fight is resolved,

searcher

01-11-2009, 01:36 AM

Skpotamus

01-11-2009, 04:28 AM

In the violent chaos of an actual fight, the people that can hit small targets accurately typically get paid six or seven figures to do so. The small targets they hunt are known as the head, chin, etc. Even the best strikers in the world can't land every shot they throw, most land less than half. Thinking that one could strike a pressure point in the chaos of a violent encounter is wishful thinking at best.

Manipulating those points while grappling is much easier, but still difficult when going live. Plus I've seen very little effect from them when the encounter gets violent and adrenaline gets pumping. What works in the dojo in a rough sparring session is different from what happens when adrenaline gets pumping and you're really trying to hurt the other guy.

See Ryan Parker of pressure point karate fame in his UFC fight versus remco pardoel. Parker was trying to manipulate pressure points after the fight hit the ground. Remco didn't seem to notice as he continued to pursue the choke hold that forced parker to tap out. Only one example I know, but it's a pretty high profile one that is easy to come across.

MBuzzy

01-11-2009, 10:09 AM

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but I did not read all of the posts. IMO, just because the size of the pressure point is the size of a quarter, it does not mean I am going to strike with a weapon that is the size of a quarter. If you hit a PP with a large weapon it can still get the desired result. It does not mean that they are always going to be effective, no one technique is, but they can definately be an enhancement to a person's arsenal.

This is the key here....PPs are a "force multiplier" they are difficult and not as effective if used alone. But if used on conjunction with another attack, they can multiple the technique that you are using. The other key with pps is redundancy. If you're aiming for a small area, attack in such a way that you have multiple changes to hit. For example, if aiming for the pressure point behind the tricep, hit at such an angle with your forearm so that you have more surface area attempting to hit the target and therefore more than one chance.

Brother John

01-11-2009, 01:38 PM

I have friends who are very good at using them effectively for strikes even under adrenal stress. For myself, I use them primarily to enhance and create openings in my grappling. They are the "poison on my arrow", meaning that I don't depend on them to win the fight, but rather to make my techniques more effective.

I really like this perspective!
The application of pressure points is a very interesting field of study, but you ask the right question. THE question that we should all ask of Each aspect of our training = IS it a 'fruitful', profitable, field of study. Does it work when I NEED it to work.

Here's how I see it.
#1: People who RELY on pressure points to save the day are in for a RUDE shock. I've known a few who acted as though their study of the pressure points were MORE important than the practice of their art itself. ODD...! That's like spending TOP dollar to buy the absolute best bullets you can get your hands on, and then at the last minute getting the cheapest used gun you can find and then barely ever polishing your drawing / shooting skills. Backwards priorities. Bullets and their quality are important, but if you're delivery system isn't consistent, accurate and dependable.....they mean ZILCH. (zilch..... there's a word you don't hear every day)

#2: The study of pressure points, Kyusho, Dian Xue, accupoints, nerve activation points..... whatever you and your instructor likes to call them, IS a very very useful facet of martial arts knowledge!! I truly believe in them. BUT, I do not think that they are THE end-all be-all "Master Key" that many make them out to be. Effective & useful....but only in their proper perspective as one marble in your bag of marbles.

#3: Those who've studied the points (by whatever name) can tell you that they come in clusters. Often times you can target a certain 'zone' and end up affecting one or two simultaneously. We ALWAYS aim at something when we strike or grab or .....anything. Nothing is "General", everything is intentional. So if I can "Target" the tricep tendon when attempting to apply an "arm-bar"......that's a smallish area, but I'm still targetting it........yes....even during your garden variety adrenal dump. In training my strikes I also like to target such things as the temple or the solar-plexus.....etc. etc., so IF I can target such smallish anatomical points like these ((and MOST do))....why not target the nerve/kyusho/accupoints??? Not all that different. KNOWING them and how to apply them for your ends is the first step. Once you have that... the rest comes out in the wash.

#4: Many of these "points" lie directly over vital anatomical targets that ALSO produce a beneficial effect in combat. IF you target the pressure point / kyusho known as "Tripple Warmer 11" (TW-11) you'll notice that it's directly in the center of the triceps tendon. SO....while you're applying your basic arm-bar, if you know where and how to ALSO make use of this 'pressure point' in the process.....you'll also be affecting the tendon. OUCH!!!!! Makes your arm-bar all the more effective, takes out the need to use THAT much force to obtain a significant reaction. (((In other words: Worth your time to know and DO))

To sum up:
Don't expect your study of Kyusho, pressure points, accupoints....etc., WHatever...... to "Save the day" or to be one of the BIG Key ingredients!! BUT: It is very worth your time!
You wouldn't build a formula-1 race car and put them on low grade wagon wheels....

Your Brother
John

Drac

01-11-2009, 02:02 PM

does ANYONE fall for the no touch knockout stuff?

:BSmeter:

No....It would make those that resist arrest a whole lot easier to handle..

Thunder Foot

01-11-2009, 02:45 PM

I personally believe the study of pressure points, gives the practictioner an advantage. I agree that in a SD situation, it is difficult to land a pressure point strike, grab, etc. as previously stated. However, I believe to fight with pressure points in mind, increases the practitioner's probability of landing a crippling blow and also increases the number of targets for a person. Of course it takes a tremendous amount of skill to be continually successful with it, and those cases are reserved for the "crem de la crem" Artist in my opinion. :asian:

searcher

01-11-2009, 04:36 PM

does ANYONE fall for the no touch knockout stuff?

:BSmeter:

The way I look at no touch is this, If I can hit so fast that the retraction of my strike makes it look like I lightly hit them or that I missed. But I don't see to many guys who are that fast these days. Does this thought make sense or is it only in my head?:daf::idunno:

Archangel M

01-11-2009, 06:43 PM

I REALLY enjoy the arts that teach students to hit various points in sequence during a fight.

thetruth

01-12-2009, 05:57 AM

I REALLY enjoy the arts that teach students to hit various points in sequence during a fight.
This is where the line can be blurred between adding pressure points to enhance your self defense and altering your self defense just to add pressure points which can get you in a lot of trouble.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

geezer

01-12-2009, 11:19 AM

This is where the line can be blurred between adding pressure points to enhance your self defense and altering your self defense just to add pressure points which can get you in a lot of trouble.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

A good point. In a striking art, if you target the big targets that are anatomically weak located along the body's center, whatever you hit will work... if you hit hard. If you know pressure points, they may fall into place too... basically as a bonus, or "target of opportunity", but not as a primary objective. The same goes for any tricky technique. Better to keep it simple and solid.

I read something once, probably in a Terry Pratchett novel, that seems to apply. It went something like this, "Any point on a body is a pressure point... if you use enough pressure. Like, for example, a ton of bricks."

Em MacIntosh

01-12-2009, 02:30 PM

Most strikes are automatically intended to hit weak spots. A hook punch to the base of the jaw under the ear, low hook to the floating ribs, jab/cross to the nose/xyphoid process/groin. Kicks to the knees or groin or a stomp on the foot. Roundhouse elbow (mawashi empi) three ribs under the armpit. Not all of them are necessarily pressure points but it's the splitting of hairs that's irrealistic, IMO. You don't intend to hit someone in the abbs or forehead but you're dealing with a moving target. The reason not having to hit someone too hard is appealing is because it minimizes the risk to the knuckles and to a lesser extent the damage done to the opponent. Pressure points (or weak points in general) are ideal for this purpose. If you're talking about typing invisible letters on the back of someone's neck causing them to do the funky chicken and pass-out, well...

JBrainard

01-13-2009, 03:11 PM

does ANYONE fall for the no touch knockout stuff?

I've been told that in the morning I can execute this technique using only my breath. :D

wrc619

01-20-2009, 08:20 AM

A lot of our blocks are intended to hit pressure points, BUT. if we miss, it is still an effective block. Such as an inward block to the bicep, even if it misses and hits the forearm, it is still an effective block.

Mike Hamer

01-22-2009, 02:05 AM

Wow, its awesome that I came acrossed this topic, as I am attending a PP seminar this Sunday!
Thank you all for your knowledge and input on the subject, very helpful!

K-man

01-22-2009, 03:16 AM

This is a very interesting thread. As has been stated we attack any vulnerable point. If we have a working knowledge of pressure points then that strike can be more effective, even if we don't hit the exact spot, if we land a strike in the immediate vicinity. If you train aikido or ju-jutsu you will recognise that many of the locks and manipulations actually are utilising pps even though they are not taught to the students as such. Knowing where the pp is can make a huge difference to the effectiveness of your technique.

As for the no touch knockout. It is not a practical thing for protection against attack but has anyone considered that it could be a training tool to demonstrate ki (or chi)? I train with a master who utilises ki and believe me it does work but it's a long learning process.

We learn the basics, we train the katas, then we then work on the finer points to make our art more effective.

Brother John

01-22-2009, 04:28 PM

This is a very interesting thread. As has been stated we attack any vulnerable point. If we have a working knowledge of pressure points then that strike can be more effective, even if we don't hit the exact spot, if we land a strike in the immediate vicinity. If you train aikido or ju-jutsu you will recognise that many of the locks and manipulations actually are utilising pps even though they are not taught to the students as such. Knowing where the pp is can make a huge difference to the effectiveness of your technique.

As for the no touch knockout. It is not a practical thing for protection against attack but has anyone considered that it could be a training tool to demonstrate ki (or chi)? I train with a master who utilises ki and believe me it does work but it's a long learning process.
With the first paragraph, I couldn't agree more!!! Well said too.

With the second paragraph: I disagree. I've met folks who'd said they could do this 'trick' and it never had an effect on me or my friends who also wanted to see it work. I'll just leave it to "I'll believe it when I feel it"....and I've already tried more than once, and I didn't. So for me, if something / someone can come and show me differenty, I chalk it up to a parlor-trick. A gimmick.

Your Brother
John

K-man

01-23-2009, 12:08 AM

With the second paragraph: I disagree. I've met folks who'd said they could do this 'trick' and it never had an effect on me or my friends who also wanted to see it work. I'll just leave it to "I'll believe it when I feel it"....and I've already tried more than once, and I didn't. So for me, if something / someone can come and show me differenty, I chalk it up to a parlor-trick. A gimmick.

I couldn't agree more about the people who say they use ki but can't demonstrate it. Apart from Dillman videos I haven't seen anyone else claim to do the no-touch knockout. That is I believe a parlor-game, not necessarily a trick. Because I haven't experienced it personally, and I find it hard to comprehend, doesn't mean it does not exist. I have seen rock climbers perform 'impossible', gravity defying, feats.

What I have seen, and felt, is the application of ki in training. My son introduced me to an aikido teacher about three years ago. This man not only demonstrates ki to anybody who wishes to experience it but also teaches it. It is a long slow progress. I have been training it for just over two years and am just starting to achieve some successes. It is an awesome journey. To be taken down with ki is a little bit like sitting down on a chair only to find that some bastard has pulled it away. You loose any intent to resist and cannot keep your feet. If anyone is coming to Australia and visiting Melbourne, I would invite you to come and train with us to see for yourself.

My background is Goju Ryu Karate and karate practitioners might know the 'Goju' means 'hard and soft'. It has taken me 30 years to find the 'soft'. If any of you have seen the Russian systema, you will have seen Mikhail Ryabko and Vladamir Vasiliev performing techniques using ki. I have taken the liberty of attaching a link to an aikido site article which goes some way towards explaining what I couldn't begin to explain.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=510

Also a YouTube video that shows Vladamir defending against multiple attackers using the softness of ki.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/systema-vladimir-vasiliev/2308335705/?icid=VIDURVSPR04

When I first became interested in learning ki I went searching the internet and stumbled onto this forum. The sentiment was so negative to this area of training, probably because of the perception of DKI, that I lurked rather than posted. Personally I find Dillman's work incredibly valuable, especially for pressure point information.

Among karate-ka there is a perception that kata is a waste of time, especially for self defence. Now that I can understand (as distinct from perform) ki and vital point attacks, I can start to appreciate the massive amount of information hidden within the katas and it leads to a fascinating study that I will never complete in my lifetime. Incredibly, most of the aikido techniques (which derive from ju-jutsu) are included in the kata, unrecognised and not trained. Obviously this is from the past era of karate-jutsu which is now re-emerging.

What I was really looking for was a forum to discuss ki with other martial artists who may have been fortunate enough to find someone who can not only demonstrate ki, but actually teach it. (No parlor-tricks, no BS)

Thank you to all who made it to the end of this rant and an extra thank you to Brother John for giving me the opportunity to post these words. :asian:

Skpotamus

01-23-2009, 12:39 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

A humorous video about a Daitoryu Aikido "Ki" master who could perform touchless KO's in a video taped challenge match. The top video is him demoing his skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
The next video is his challenge match against a guy with a purple belt in BJJ.

My personal experience with PP's is that they work great on people expecting them to work. Against someone expecting them to fail or fighting, I've only seen one actually ever work and that's not a true PP.

K-man

01-23-2009, 02:25 AM

I have seen other similar videos and have no idea as to their authenticity. To control someone without applying some sort of technique is way beyond my meager knowledge. We apply technique against resistance. Strength fails almost every time, softness works much of the time. Without physically training with someone you wouldn't know if it is BS or real. That video stretches my imagination and the proof of the pudding is probably in the second video. Didn't work against a non co-operative opponent. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif Mind you, I would be very reluctant to voluntarily test my SD skills against a MMA champion. :asian:

redantstyle

01-23-2009, 03:50 AM

K-man,

could you define what you mean by using 'ki' in a technique?

im pretty sure i know what you are getting at, but i think you are being misinterpreted.

regards.

K-man

01-23-2009, 07:51 AM

When I first started to learn karate some 30 years back we were taught that to cultivate power, focus, strength and centre we needed to use ki. For those who understand Okinawan katas this is embodied in kata Sanchin. So body and, for want of a better word, ‘spirit’ or ki equals power and strength. (Please don’t take this to be religious or spiritual.) This is still an acceptable explanation to my mind. Use of ki empowers our centre.
So far, so good. We are young and fast and strong. We can hold our own, but, as we age we slow down and we lose our strength. Have we then to say we have trained for a lifetime but now, with age, it’s finished?
This didn’t happen to the Masters. In particular I am thinking of Morihei Ueshiba. He developed a martial art that blended with his opponent, that trained softness rather than strength and removed the need for speed. He went from strength to strength right into his eighties.
So, I was introduced to a man that had something I had never experienced before. A softness that could overcome my strongest hold or my fastest punch. Hence, I learnt an additional application of ki. The object of this training is to actually merge my energy or spirit or ki with that of my opponent and use that energy to remove his will to resist. So my second understaning of ki is this. My opponent with body and spirit or ki together is strong. If I can remove his ki, he loses his will to resist and his body is weak. Hence my assertion that softness (not weakness) can overcome strength.
Is this widely practised? No. Is it easy to learn? No. Does it work? Yes. Does it work all the time? Not yet for me.
In my case it took 14 months to begin to influence my opponent’s ki.
Now we look at techniques as taught in aikido and to a certain extent ju-jutsu. Do these techniques work against a more powerful opponent? Possibly. They look good with a compliant partner but in our training we find we can normally stop each other , with strength, 90% of the time. If we add ki, and forget the strength, the odds reverse.
I hope this goes some way to describe my understanding of ki. :asian:

ChingChuan

01-23-2009, 10:35 AM

I don't think that pressure points have anything to do with ki... Pressure points are either nerve plexuses or certain structures (tendons / veins) with receptors that will elicit a reflex when stimulated.

For instance, almost all arts utilize a strike to the plexus solaris (it's really called the plexus coeliacus). This is a real 'knot' of nerves, and when struck, it will cause the diaphragm to relax.

An example of a 'reflex' used in martial arts, is the achilles tendon reflex. There are little receptors in the achilles tendon that give feedback to the brain about one's posture. If you're learning too much forwards / backwards, the brain will automatically correct it (hence it's a reflex). If you use a leg sweep, then your foot will strike against the achilles tendon. The receptors then will initiate the reflex. Usually, you don't really notice the reflex taking place, but a correct leg sweep will stimulate the receptors more than usual and cause a reflex that's too strong - and thus, a leg sweep will usually make someone fall. ( I know that there are different leg sweeps - there are also a few that work on the nervus tibialis - when stimulated aka hit, this nerve will send tiny 'electrical shocks' and cause someone to stumble).

And of course, there are also other receptors that can cause a reflex - like the carotid baroreceptors in the carotid artery. You'll start feeling dizzy if these are stimulated. A common technique which stimulates them, is a knife hand strike to the neck. Also, if you gently press your palms into someone's neck (into the carotid arteries on both sides) and give a slight push, then you'll be able to make most people fall backwards without too much effort.

So... do I doubt the efficacy of pressure points? No, because virtually all martial arts techniques depend on them. Of course, pressure points are usually very 'small' points, you'll need to hit exactly the right spot to get them to work properly - but most martial arts techniques depend on accuracy, don't they? It takes some practise to be able to properly execute a leg sweep - and this isn't because of the fact that the technique is too difficult etc, but it's just because you need to hit the right spot in the right way.

Also, this explains why people don't aways respond the same to the same technique. Some people have quite sensitive nerves and some people don't. I know a guy, which also trains Pencak Silat, who you can hit directly into the plexus solaris and he won't feel anything. My instructor even tried it, to no avail.

Of course, there are also the more obscure pressure points, those related to meridians... My anatomy professor showed us some very interesting research, which states that things like acupunture aren't necessarily connected to taoism etc, but that it's just a more 'simple' (I don't want to offend anyone) explanation for something that can be perfectly explained by science. This is because all nerves are interconnected. This causes things like referred pain - some people who are getting a heart attack, only feel that their left arm hurts.
So, for me, it isn't really hard to believe that it is also possible to affect the function of certain organs by hitting a certain nerve, but I do think that such a skill is very dangerous, especially if you don't know exactly what you are doing... I mean, hitting someone in the stomach is one thing - it's effects can be felt clearly and you know why it hurts - but causing someone's pancreas to shut down or something, sounds more like murder to me...

Well, I hope this contributed to the discussion ;).

Koshou911

01-23-2009, 10:54 AM

My sensei always says that if the moon and the stars are all aligned pressure points are effective and that they are very effective but we should never rely on them. Instead what we do with pressure points is use them more for escapes and as add ons to locks we have. Mind you this is what he says to us Kyu Belts so obviously our technique may not be precise enough to make good use of pressure points. The Black belts in the class make very good use of pressure points, it just last night that a Nidan instructor made me "jiujitsu smile" more than a dozen times with his pressure point techniques.

Brother John

01-23-2009, 11:54 AM

I don't think that pressure points have anything to do with ki... Pressure points are either nerve plexuses or certain structures (tendons / veins) with receptors that will elicit a reflex when stimulated.

For instance, almost all arts utilize a strike to the plexus solaris (it's really called the plexus coeliacus). This is a real 'knot' of nerves, and when struck, it will cause the diaphragm to relax.

An example of a 'reflex' used in martial arts, is the achilles tendon reflex. There are little receptors in the achilles tendon that give feedback to the brain about one's posture. If you're learning too much forwards / backwards, the brain will automatically correct it (hence it's a reflex). If you use a leg sweep, then your foot will strike against the achilles tendon. The receptors then will initiate the reflex. Usually, you don't really notice the reflex taking place, but a correct leg sweep will stimulate the receptors more than usual and cause a reflex that's too strong - and thus, a leg sweep will usually make someone fall. ( I know that there are different leg sweeps - there are also a few that work on the nervus tibialis - when stimulated aka hit, this nerve will send tiny 'electrical shocks' and cause someone to stumble).

And of course, there are also other receptors that can cause a reflex - like the carotid baroreceptors in the carotid artery. You'll start feeling dizzy if these are stimulated. A common technique which stimulates them, is a knife hand strike to the neck. Also, if you gently press your palms into someone's neck (into the carotid arteries on both sides) and give a slight push, then you'll be able to make most people fall backwards without too much effort.

some people who are getting a heart attack, only feel that their left arm hurts.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. The "pressure points", in my eyes, are simply the study and application of the antomical liabilities of the human body. They can be used for 'some' effect, but they're not nearly so magical as many would like them to seem.

For me, their usefulness lies in their ability to evoke a predictable response. For instance, the Sensei who taught me the most about "pressure points" (my preffered term for them) showed me how he could get me to briefly lift one or the other leg in the air a few inches by pressing two points on my arm. It worked!!! That in and of itself isn't all that useful, but then when he coupled THAT response with his leg sweep to my other leg....
BAM!!!!!! Every time.

Nothing mystical though. It was my bodies neurological response to a refered pain, in an attempt to alieviate that pain quickly.

Interesting, useful.....but they have their limitations.

Your Brother
John

PS: I think you're mistaken about the refered pain during a heart attack. That's actually caused by the artery that goes straight from your heart to that limb contracting down on NO blood.

ChingChuan

01-23-2009, 12:30 PM

Nice to see that there are more people who think that pressure points aren't a myth ;).

I think you're mistaken about the refered pain during a heart attack. That's actually caused by the artery that goes straight from your heart to that limb contracting down on NO blood.

I was told that it had to do with the innervation of the arm ;). The nerves that innervate the arm are branches of the same spinal nerves as the nerves that innervate some parts of the heart. So the 'pain signals' from the heart somehow end up in the wrong place. But it is possible that the sudden pain can cause veins etc. to contract, which also isn't a very pleasant sensation.

Interesting, useful.....but they have their limitations
...as every martial arts technique has its limitations ;). I don't really think that pressure point techniques are a 'different class' of martial arts techniques - without pressure points, we'd be nowhere.

Brother John

01-23-2009, 01:36 PM

Nice to see that there are more people who think that pressure points aren't a myth ;).
True.
I know they're not a 'myth', BUT... they have been heavily mythologized! A lot in the past and a LOT MORE in many of the folks who go around today as the 'experts', that make their money through mixing their knowledge of them with their own brand of hucksterism. I think it's very important to remove the mysticism out of it and show it's practical uses. If not, then most will never get past the hucksterism to find the actual, practical applications.

I was told that it had to do with the innervation of the arm. The nerves that innervate the arm are branches of the same spinal nerves as the nerves that innervate some parts of the heart. So the 'pain signals' from the heart somehow end up in the wrong place.
I did some research on this just now and ...

I was Wrong.....
You are CORRECT!!

In fact you worded it BETTER than the folks I just read, such as this one..

LINK (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-02/887398295.Me.r.html)

I don't really think that pressure point techniques are a 'different class' of martial arts techniques - without pressure points, we'd be nowhere.

I'm really not sure about the very last sentence. In fact, I'd shy away from that. I feel that in the martial arts world, a lot of the snake-oil salesmen-types tend to foist their seminars / books / DVD's onto the unsuspecting public by claiming that pressure points are the end all be all of the martial arts world. That every action needs to be analysed in light of Kyusho / Dim Mak ...etc., and that ever form, kata, set....has them as the only Raison d'être...
and they're not. They've been made a martial arts world fetish, which I think takes them completely out of proper perspective.

But I do feel that the study of "pressure points" is important and useful... but there's LOADS of chaff to seperate them from.

Your Brother
John

redantstyle

01-24-2009, 09:50 PM

thetruth

01-24-2009, 09:58 PM

without pressure points, we'd be nowhere.

I totally disagree with that.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

ChingChuan

01-25-2009, 06:15 PM

I'm really not sure about the very last sentence. In fact, I'd shy away from that. I feel that in the martial arts world, a lot of the snake-oil salesmen-types tend to foist their seminars / books / DVD's onto the unsuspecting public by claiming that pressure points are the end all be all of the martial arts world.

Well, I do agree that some people use their own invented pressure point system to make money, but in the end - what makes a leg sweep work? Why do most people double over when punched into the stomach? What makes wrist & arm locks work?

All those kinds of techniques, which are used in almost every art, work because of the fact that there are nerves & stretch receptors...
If nerves didn't work that way, it would be very hard to control someone without harming him.

That every action needs to be analysed in light of Kyusho / Dim Mak ...etc., and that ever form, kata, set....has them as the only Raison d'être...
and they're not. They've been made a martial arts world fetish, which I think takes them completely out of proper perspective.

So, yes, I think that most (if not all) martial arts techniques are specifically designed for a particular pressure point (by which I mean nerves etc.). If we take the 'common' leg sweep as an example - it wouldn't help if you used a prod of your index finger or something to set if off - it's better when you use your foot.

However, I do agree with you that pressure points itself shouldn't be the 'focus' of one's training. The nerves and other mechanisms are just the stuff that makes it work. If you're learning how to drive a car, you don't need to know how the engine etc. works - it's better to learn specific driving techniques. But you should never deny the fact that there is an engine... :P

And of course, you don't need to know about pressure points to make them work (my instructor is a very good example of this!) - but it might help with your understanding of a technique, why things are done that particular way, or why it's so hard to learn...

So perhaps now more people will agree with me? ;).

lordtains

02-21-2009, 11:36 AM

Well I definitely agree that pressure points are not mystical. I cant say Ki does not exist or that there are no pressure points that work with that, but I can say that if you take "pressure point" in its entire meaning, you use them all the time.

When we say "pressure point", we mean "vital point". ALL vital points from the body. That means the groin, the nose, the stomach and the liver are ALL pressure points. Heck, there are so many pressure points that even if you've never been trained you're bound to hit one some time. We Martial Artists learn to hit weak points. The plexus solarus, the temple, the neck, the nose and the groin. Hitting them works. If you would not use them the fight would take thrice as long and most Arts teach you to finish it off quickly.

are they practical? Of course they are. If someone has you in some kind of lock by your head, and you see a chance to hit him on a pressure point on his leg, then do it! It might be the only way to get out.

But what are pressure points? If you're talking about Dim Mak then the question is a bit more difficult. Those pressure points work, but they're much more precise. However, in a real fight, if the opponent is dazed and you see a chance to hit some pressure points, it far better than keep punching him until he stops moving. Its far quicker.

I say everyone should train in pressure points, but everyone already does. Those more precise pressure points are a bit less practical, but there will always be times where they can be used. There is no such thing as learning something in Martial Arts that is useless. If knowing a couple of precise pressure points doessnt hurt you, why should you be hesitant to learn them?

-Tains

Balrog

02-22-2009, 05:01 PM

On a passively resisting person (not fighting the applier or trying to pull away from them), I've seen them work maybe a little more than half the time. In all fairness, most were drunks or stoners needing escort out of somewhere. Some you could probably have set on fire and not got a reaction.

On an actively resisting person... I've yet to see anything besides a brachial plexus origin stun work (strike to the neck).

That and the common peroneal (outside of the thigh above the knee) are the only two that are really worth going after as a primary target, IMNSHO. The rest of the pressure points are nice and can clear someone off of you, but you have to set them up first.

thetruth

02-23-2009, 05:14 AM

When we say "pressure point", we mean "vital point". ALL vital points from the body. That means the groin, the nose, the stomach and the liver are ALL pressure points. Heck, there are so many pressure points that even if you've never been trained you're bound to hit one some time.
Pressure points and vital points are not the same thing and don't use the same processes when having an effect on the body. Vital points have to do with pain and the body's inbuilt protective responses. Pressure points work on meridians etc. You may hit some points by dumb luck but these will not necessarily even add to the effect of the strike. There are far too many variables that come in to play such as where you have struck prior and what angle you are hitting at and your posture etc which in my opinion make them unrealistic

If someone has you in some kind of lock by your head, and you see a chance to hit him on a pressure point on his leg, then do it! It might be the only way to get out.
At best a pressure point in this instance may only distract your assailant for a second so you can apply your other techniques so don't rely on PP for your escape

But what are pressure points? If you're talking about Dim Mak then the question is a bit more difficult. Those pressure points work, but they're much more precise. However, in a real fight, if the opponent is dazed and you see a chance to hit some pressure points, it far better than keep punching him until he stops moving. Its far quicker.
I'm not convinced they do work but like I said that's my opinion from all I have learnt and all I have seen high ranking kyusho guys do. I agree to the keep punching part at the end though

I say everyone should train in pressure points, but everyone already does. Those more precise pressure points are a bit less practical, but there will always be times where they can be used. There is no such thing as learning something in Martial Arts that is useless. If knowing a couple of precise pressure points doessnt hurt you, why should you be hesitant to learn them?

I say train in what you believe to be the best, if that's pressure points then so be it. There may not be anything in martial arts that is useless so to speak however there are things that are useless for certain things. A mortal kombat somersault kick may be good for a freestyle kata competition but is useless in self defence. An eye gouge may be good on the street but is useless in mma competition.

With the hit and miss nature of pressure points due to the huge amount of variables I choose not to devote my time to study them. I have in the past and I have formed my opinions based on this experience. I am not hesitant, I don't want to study them. But people should look into things themselves in order to form their own opinion

Cheers
Sam:asian: