There has been mention of at least three subsystems of TKD on the board so far, and some of us are interested in exactly how many subsystems exist.

Getting a definitive list of TKD subsystems may be difficult, since TKD is really an amalgamation of differnt Korean schools of martial arts. However, I know at least 3 of the subsets are named after these old schools, or kwans, so I'll list the kwans here:

-Chung Do Kwan
-Moo Duk Kwan
-Yun Moo Kwan
-Chang Moo Kwan
-Oh Do Kwan
-Ji Do Kwan
-Chi Do Kwan
-Song Moo Kwan

Ji Do Kwan and Chi Do Kwan may be variations of the same name.

Also, I've seen differences in systems just do to organization affiliation. W.T.F. TKD can be substantially different from I.T.F. TKD, which can be substantially different from I.T.A. TKD etc, etc, etc...

I have no clue why I know this :lol:

Anyway, are there any TKD folks with more solid knowledge of Korean MA history than myself who could elaborate/correct?

Cthulhu

Thanks for posting this Cthulhu. I suspect that there are many more styles out there.

I wonder if TKD practitioners consider these different styles, as Goju-Ryu and Shorin-Ryu are different styles of karate, or different organizations of one style. I think that there is some of each, actually.

Some of the differences depend on when the TKD person trained. The guy I've been training with could be considered 'old school' TKD, since he's been taught the Pinan, Tekki (Naihanchi?), and Chinto forms, in addition to other Korean forms like Koryo. None of the other TKD people at the school know the Okinawan forms.

Cthulhu

I have some information on the History of ITF Taekwon-Do at my site www.dojang.co.uk (http://www.brianrbarton.com/dojang/history.html).
:D
For further information on this it is recommended that you visit International Taekwon-Do Federation (http://www.itf-taekwondo.com/)

Originally posted by brianbarton

For further information on this it is recommended that you visit International Taekwon-Do Federation (http://www.itf-taekwondo.com/)

That site has a nicely detailed history (http://www.itf-taekwondo.com/sub01a.htm).

Trying to figure out the history of TKD is about like trying to put together a DNA strand.Since General Choi did not put a trademark on the name once TKD started to become popular everyone started making up moves and called it TKD we that train in the Original form of TKD call these Organizations Generic TKD,(because they are not as good as the name brand);)

Originally posted by Cthulhu

There has been mention of at least three subsystems of TKD on the board so far, and some of us are interested in exactly how many subsystems exist.

Getting a definitive list of TKD subsystems may be difficult, since TKD is really an amalgamation of differnt Korean schools of martial arts. However, I know at least 3 of the subsets are named after these old schools, or kwans, so I'll list the kwans here:

-Chung Do Kwan
-Moo Duk Kwan
-Yun Moo Kwan
-Chang Moo Kwan
-Oh Do Kwan
-Ji Do Kwan
-Chi Do Kwan
-Song Moo Kwan

Ji Do Kwan and Chi Do Kwan may be variations of the same name.

Also, I've seen differences in systems just do to organization affiliation. W.T.F. TKD can be substantially different from I.T.F. TKD, which can be substantially different from I.T.A. TKD etc, etc, etc...

I have no clue why I know this :lol:

Anyway, are there any TKD folks with more solid knowledge of Korean MA history than myself who could elaborate/correct?

Cthulhu Well lets try Kook Sul Wan, Moo Sul Wan, and the new hybrid substyle of Hap Ki Mu Sul! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Well... General Hong Hi, creator of Taekwondo, founded the International Taekwondo Federation... ITF. This organization was formed after Taekwondo was accepted by the Koreans as their nation's martial art. So in that respect, ITF is Taekwondo. All other organizations that were formed adterwards, are questionable in my opinion... probably THEIR style of G. Hong Hi's TKD to cash in on the money to be earned. This goes for WTF as well, giving the fact that it was created after ITF. ITF is the oldest and purest form of TKD that exists, IMHO.

Is anyone here familiar with this organization? It is under the control of Howard Kang, 9th Dan in Florida. Thanks:asian:

I thought I'd bump this post up now that we have more posters here. The question remains: How many different TKD substyles are there?

My school has another subsystem of TKD. It's mixed with WTF TKD and Kung Fu at later ranks. Plus we do Chin Na for self defense.

Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt

Well... This goes for WTF as well, giving the fact that it was created after ITF. ITF is the oldest and purest form of TKD that exists, IMHO.

The story I was told about the WTF, is that it was formed by some of the generals high ranking black belts that were upset by him giving North Korea enterance into the ITF.

TKD subsytems... I didn't know there were this many, and I've been around it for over 25 years!! So I'm interested in hearing more about these subsystems.


:asian:

The list of schools was very good except for the ommission of Jung Do Kwan, a subsection of Chung Do Kwan, as was Oh Do Kwan. At the founding of the Korea Taekwondo Association in the 1960's, the 9 Kwans were the 9 official schools recognized by the KTA as well as the Korean gov't. The WTF was formed out of the KTA by the various Kwan Heads after Gen. Choi left Korea. Today, the KTA is cosidered the Korean NGB of the WTF. The fact that 9 Kwans originally made up the KTA is one of the reasons why Tae Kwon Do has 9 Dan ranks, 9 Gup forms, and 9 Dan forms. Bet you didn't know that did you?
Anyway, to state that ITF Tae Kwon Do is the superior form, and that Gen. Choi was the Founder of Tae Kwon Do is the same tired line ITF people have been fed and believed since the ITF was founded. If Choi was the founder, how do you explain the existance of the Kwans, or the fact that he was a student of Chung Do Kwan founder Won Kuk Lee-something Choi never really admitted to?
As to Kuk Sool Won and the others, they are not subsections of Tae Kwon Do. In my opinion, they are subsections of aikijitsu/jujitsu with Tae Kwon Do kicking added. They were not part of the unification talks among the Kwan heads when TKD was developing, coming along after TKD had developed.

Well, the style of TKD I take is Sangahm TKD...

Well, the style of TKD I take is Sangahm TKD...

Songahm is strictly ATA, correct? I don't think I've heard of any other organizations teaching songahm...

Anyway, to state that ITF Tae Kwon Do is the superior form, and that Gen. Choi was the Founder of Tae Kwon Do is the same tired line ITF people have been fed and believed since the ITF was founded. If Choi was the founder, how do you explain the existance of the Kwans, or the fact that he was a student of Chung Do Kwan founder Won Kuk Lee-something Choi never really admitted to?

I'm not an ITFer, but out of fairness to the late General, I don't think he ever tried to hide his training at the Chung Do Kwan. Many of the early Korean masters trained there in the beginning- partly because for a while it was the only place for them to train.

Songham TKD is only taught by the ATA. Our late Grand Master came to the U.S. after the Korean War and started teaching over here. After some time he found the old forms (not sure the ones he used) lacking because they did not effectively reflect the art of TKD in his opinion. With the help of some of his oldest students, and taking into consideration medical information about muscle development and other things, he created 18 new forms and the Songham style.

Because of the fact that the Grandmaster created the forms, he was able to copy right the forms themselves and prevent anyone other than his own students and members from learning and using our system. So yes, Songham is strictly ATA and it's affiliated member organizations.

Right, Shujack...yeah, it is ATA, but the WTTU teaches the same forms, and so does the STF ...The World Traditional TaeKwonDo Union and the Songahm TaeKwonDo Federation. Those are both systems that are outside of the US. So, no ATA is not only exclusive. Those other two were founded by the late Grand Master HU Lee and then he created ATA.

True Shaolinwolf,

But the STF and WTTU are also considered a branch of the ATA. Governing Masters in the STF and WTTU still have to report to the ATA for their ranking and everything else. STF and WTTU is just a way to make ATA international without the limitation of "American Taekwondo". After all, the ATA is the biggest body of Songham Taekwondo that exist today. And it is also the ATA that holds the GrandMaster, who in return makes decisions for the STF and WTTU... along with the counsel of Masters.

Right, I was just making a point...It's not just ATA specifically...I said that the others are out of the country. I know that all are interwoven, I know STF people who come here for tournaments at ATA stuff. I was just pointing that out...

I know what you mean Shaolinwolf. I just branch the STF and WTTU under the ATA because they are basically the same organization, just different faces of the organization. Also, STF and WTTU members are allowed to compete in ATA tournaments, so I just group the other two organizations as ATA.

Yes, technicqually Songham is taught out side of the ATA, but those organizations are part of the ATA so they are not really taught outside of the ATA.

I know what you mean Shaolinwolf. I just branch the STF and WTTU under the ATA because they are basically the same organization, just different faces of the organization. Also, STF and WTTU members are allowed to compete in ATA tournaments, so I just group the other two organizations as ATA.

Yes, technicqually Songham is taught out side of the ATA, but those organizations are part of the ATA so they are not really taught outside of the ATA.

Agreed. ATA and it's affiliates are the only practitioners of Songham style Taekwondo, even though there really isn't much difference in styles aside from the forms.

If you really think about it, all martial arts are basically same. A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. The only difference is how we go about practicing them and improving. Rules, regulations, forms (or lack of), sparring methods, philosophies, etc. They are just different means to the same end.

As a drunken kick boxer once told me, "Your TKD, you have nothing but kicks and they are going to be useless against me."

Good thing I learned how to punch and use other various hand techniques like all other martial arts teach. (Including TKD) :)

Yeah, I agree, I was just stating it; it's all Songahm TKD. Just different named organizations due to the countries outside of the USA.

Chin Mu Kwan is still under Grandmaster Kang. It's national tournament will be next summer (2007) in McAllen Texas.

Sub-systems is a little misleading; "school" would be a more appropriate term.

The five original Korean Kwans ("schools") were: Chung Do Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan (the art of Tang Soo Do), Yun Moo Kwan, Chang Moo Kwan, and Chi Do Kwan. These were founded in 1945 and 1946. Three more Kwans were founded in the early 1950's - Ji Do Kwan, Song Moo Kwan, and Oh Do Kwan.


There is a very blurry line between kwans, some schools are very hard core when it comes to their lineage while others couldn't care less.

I am a member of Moo Sul Kwan. The school teaches hapkido and tae kwon do. An interesting question. How many other schools teach the ITF and WTF forms at each belt rank?

I know mine does.

I am with fireman on this one. I know my school is hardcore on the lineage. I know that Lee H. Park, founder of Moo Sul Kwan studied under Won-Kwang Wha for hapkido and studied Yudo at the Korean Yudo Academy with Bol Young Shin. I am not sure who his Tae Kwon Do instruction came from. I am not going to guess. However, I do know the Won-kwang Wha was one of Choi's first 11 students. The instructor I am learning from is one of Lee's first students.