How important is foot work and rooting?

[Mystic Wolf]

I have been studying Wing Chun for over thirteen years and one of the things I have noticed with other WC schools is lousy footwork with no rooting. That is pet pea of mine and it irritates me to see awsome hands with lousy foot work and no rooting.

[Yoshiyahu]

My Sifu always stress practicing your root...finding your center of gravity...Man of trade secrets of Traditional Martial Arts are being left out. Either because of unqualified Sifu's or because of secretative knowledge hording.

Your right foot work is the key...with out root and proper foot work you lack extra power in your punch. How else can you generate power from your horse stance. If you never practice YGKYM. Some schools negate Stance practice by having students doing SLT for an half an Hour...They feel thats enough for YGKYM work...But why do extra...


Your root is very important. Your root can help you maintain your balance when someone is trying to uproot you. It allows you to turn off their force. If you have no root it will be very hard to deflect an persons attack with out using brute force!


Many people do not care about the subtle things of Wing Chun:
1.Chi
2.Root
3.Flow
4.Fajin
5.Breathe
6.Softness
7.Deflection
8.Springy power
9.Study of the principals
10.Whole body connection

But I am glad to see you do


I have been studying Wing Chun for over thirteen years and one of the things I have noticed with other WC schools is lousy footwork with no rooting. That is pet pea of mine and it irritates me to see awsome hands with lousy foot work and no rooting.

[Mystic Wolf]

My Sifu always stress practicing your root...finding your center of gravity...Man of trade secrets of Traditional Martial Arts are being left out. Either because of unqualified Sifu's or because of secretative knowledge hording.

Your right foot work is the key...with out root and proper foot work you lack extra power in your punch. How else can you generate power from your horse stance. If you never practice YGKYM. Some schools negate Stance practice by having students doing SLT for an half an Hour...They feel thats enough for YGKYM work...But why do extra...


Your root is very important. Your root can help you maintain your balance when someone is trying to uproot you. It allows you to turn off their force. If you have no root it will be very hard to deflect an persons attack with out using brute force!


Many people do not care about the subtle things of Wing Chun:
1.Chi
2.Root
3.Flow
4.Fajin
5.Breathe
6.Softness
7.Deflection
8.Springy power
9.Study of the principals
10.Whole body connection

But I am glad to see you do

I agree totaly. some of the videos you showed me, the hands are awsome but the foot work is not so great. And if I notice this, I know that grapplers notice it to.
I just put this thought out there so that other WC instructors will take note.

[Yoshiyahu]

Your type of WC...is a dying breed my friend...There are not many out there who stick to traditional WC...Look there are very few of us on each Wing Chun forum...There are a few here and very few on Wing Chun Fight club...



I agree totaly. some of the videos you showed me, the hands are awsome but the foot work is not so great. And if I notice this, I know that grapplers notice it to.
I just put this thought out there so that other WC instructors will take note.

[Si-Je]

I agree totaly. some of the videos you showed me, the hands are awsome but the foot work is not so great. And if I notice this, I know that grapplers notice it to.
I just put this thought out there so that other WC instructors will take note.

Sifu, I wouldn't have any power in my punching or kicks if you didn't teach me proper stance and rooting. :asian:

And thanks again Yoshi for the chi drills love them and they've already made my power easier and stronger. :ultracool

[naneek]

without footwrk and rooting the base becomes unstable making us more vulerable to being knocked down and power becomes much harder to generate in our strikes

[Mystic Wolf]

At the beginning of class, we work on stance, chain punching, and deflections for about 30 minutes. Then we break off to groups to work on techiques according to there skill level.

[Yoshiyahu]

you welcome for the drills..I have so many i totally forgot which ones i given you...so sometimes re share them with me...


lol


Sifu, I wouldn't have any power in my punching or kicks if you didn't teach me proper stance and rooting. :asian:

And thanks again Yoshi for the chi drills love them and they've already made my power easier and stronger. :ultracool

[Yoshiyahu]

My Sifu class went sorta of like it...

1.Strength
Push Ups on bricks
Chin Ups
Wrist rollers(YGKM)
Class Jars filled with water(Holding extended out) YGKYM
Metal Pipe Torque(YGKYM)
Rotation of bricks while gripping with fingersYGKYM

Stance holding for one minute to five minutes each during class sometime longer.

1. YGKYM(Five-twenty minutes)
2. Mabu=Low Horse stance Three to twenty minutes
3. Hanging Horse (one minute to five minutes)
4. Arrow Stance (Three minutes to twenty months)

Other stances but no need to go into them.

Then we start punching drills atleast 12 of them. In YGKYM and side stance.

Then we do form training. Sil Lim Tao,Ma Form, Bashi, Northern drill

Chi Kung exercises In various stances.

Then partner drills

Chi Sau and blind fold Chi Sau

Then free style sparring.

There is nore but this is just a summary of some of things we did.


At the beginning of class, we work on stance, chain punching, and deflections for about 30 minutes. Then we break off to groups to work on techiques according to there skill level.

[naneek]

what is hanging horse dont think i have heard of this one?

[Si-Je]

Doing SLT reallllly slow then keeping stance and doing deflections slow with punch while using "wing chun curl" to extend punch evertime, all very slow. That one rulez! Makes me sweat, makes my body get hot and I can feel energy in my hands, arms, chest, head and shoulders.
Very good stuff.
The bag work for increasing power in punching at close range I saved to disk and am waiting until we get a bag to try those. :)


you welcome for the drills..I have so many i totally forgot which ones i given you...so sometimes re share them with me...


lol

[Yoshiyahu]

Oh well i normally call it crane up...But many call it hanging horse...

So I utlize both terms i was taught both but i wont go into differences between the two...hanging horse is like doing Sil Lim Tao on one leg.


http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:g8N725RRfhETWM:http://www.eagleclawatl.com/images/tai_toi_hanging_stance.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.eagleclawatl.com/images/tai_toi_hanging_stance.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.eagleclawatl.com/eagleclawstances.php&usg=__1HH8tPsHzhsG6OfpXvEtuDiNwu8=&h=233&w=171&sz=10&hl=en&start=25&um=1&tbnid=g8N725RRfhETWM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=80&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHanging%2Bhorse%2Bstance%26start%3D20 %26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rlz %3D1T4RNWN_enUS307US307%26sa%3DN) http://www.hungkuen.net/images/stance-gamgai.jpghttp://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:IcKeDOazdZ8t4M:http://www.samoobramba.net/ycf28.gif (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.samoobramba.net/ycf28.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.samoobramba.net/sanshiqishi.htm&usg=__NroK5FR-eqoy9xQ2av8b-M9-8eg=&h=200&w=150&sz=10&hl=en&start=13&um=1&tbnid=IcKeDOazdZ8t4M:&tbnh=104&tbnw=78&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgolden%2Brooster%2Bstands%2Bon%2Bone% 2Bleg%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4R NWN_enUS307US307)http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:RpWI8FGcYfr_AM:http://www.sifulee.com/photos/mabuarticle/dulima-sm.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sifulee.com/photos/mabuarticle/dulima-sm.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sifulee.com/badamabu.html&usg=__uJff-DMBykoS_7kVFmUTIlS4Fm4=&h=357&w=276&sz=36&hl=en&start=10&um=1&tbnid=RpWI8FGcYfr_AM:&tbnh=121&tbnw=94&prev=/images%3Fq%3DStand%2Bon%2Bone%2Bleg%26um%3D1%26hl% 3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rlz%3D1T4RNWN_enUS307US307)








http://www.hungkuen.net/training-basicstances.htm



what is hanging horse dont think i have heard of this one?

[Mystic Wolf]

I usually have the students stand in basic stance while chain punching focusing on there rooting. While they are are doing that, I will walk around them giving them a shove or tug on there leg checking there stance.

Then I will have them step and will check there stance immidiately.

We also focus alot of sring energy in our footwork.

Also having the student walk around class in basic stance helps, no normal walk allowed.

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay I remember now...yea...also practicing all the blocks at regular speed fifty to hundred times each will definitely give you good foundation...

But yea the wall bag exercises can be practice slowly in the air...

For instance
1.Using just the wrist to punch
2.Using The Wrist and elbow to punch
3.Using just wrist-elbow and shoulders to punch
4.Use Wrist elbow shoulders and waist
5.Use Wrist Elbow Shoulders Waist and hips
6.Use Wrist Elbow Shoulders Waist Hips and stance
7.Don't for get Hand Tensing and relaxing exercise(Squeeze fist on impact)

You do this with air.

A candle practice putting the flame out

A sheet of paper hanging on string from the shower pole..etc etc..or you can tape the string up above the kitchen interest and have the string long enough to where you can punch the sheet of paper.





Doing SLT reallllly slow then keeping stance and doing deflections slow with punch while using "wing chun curl" to extend punch evertime, all very slow. That one rulez! Makes me sweat, makes my body get hot and I can feel energy in my hands, arms, chest, head and shoulders.
Very good stuff.
The bag work for increasing power in punching at close range I saved to disk and am waiting until we get a bag to try those. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

I like the no normal walking ha ha...Sometimes the police officer i train work on root by doing chi sau centered on off balancing or uprooting the other person. This way you have to concentrate if your stance is right and learn how to turn off the force. Also we practice with her hands already on the other person chest or stomach and feel you feel the push shift your body to turn the force off.

Here is a interesting Question I may have gave the answer away on another thread but does any one know what Yee Gee Kim Yeung Man means?





I usually have the students stand in basic stance while chain punching focusing on there rooting. While they are are doing that, I will walk around them giving them a shove or tug on there leg checking there stance.

Then I will have them step and will check there stance immidiately.

We also focus alot of sring energy in our footwork.

Also having the student walk around class in basic stance helps, no normal walk allowed.

[Mystic Wolf]

My Sifu class went sorta of like it...

1.Strength
Push Ups on bricks
Chin Ups
Wrist rollers(YGKM)
Class Jars filled with water(Holding extended out) YGKYM
Metal Pipe Torque(YGKYM)
Rotation of bricks while gripping with fingersYGKYM

Stance holding for one minute to five minutes each during class sometime longer.

1. YGKYM(Five-twenty minutes)
2. Mabu=Low Horse stance Three to twenty minutes
3. Hanging Horse (one minute to five minutes)
4. Arrow Stance (Three minutes to twenty months)

Other stances but no need to go into them.

Then we start punching drills atleast 12 of them. In YGKYM and side stance.

Then we do form training. Sil Lim Tao,Ma Form, Bashi, Northern drill

Chi Kung exercises In various stances.

Then partner drills

Chi Sau and blind fold Chi Sau

Then free style sparring.

There is nore but this is just a summary of some of things we did.

Standing on one leg is ok, but trained improperly will develope bad habits. As with the hanging horse, and the wide horse stance.

We do not use these stances. The stance we use is as follows:

1. Arms withdrawn to chest, while standing with feet close together.
2. Bend knees slightly.
3.Pivot toe outwards.
4. Then pivot heels outwards. Toes should be pionted inward at about a 44 degree angle.
5. The knees are turned inwards towards each other.
6. You should have tension between your adduct muscles like sqeezing a ball. The tension is what will cause the spring energy and rooting.

[Yoshiyahu]

The Stance you speak of is

Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_siulientao_pose.jpg



Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma
- Pull in the chest, push out the upper back, and bring in the tail bone.
- Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.
- Point the knees and toes inward.
- Form a pyramid with the center of gravity in the center.
- Fists are placed by the side of the ribs but not touching the body.
- Sink the elbows, the shoulders, and the waist.
- Hold the head and neck straight and keep the spirit alert.
- Eyes are level, looking straight ahead, and watching all directions.
- The mind is free of distractions and the mood is bright.
- There is no fear when facing the opponent.
- Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma is the main stance.
- Develop a good foundation for advanced techniques.


http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#Yee_Jee_Kim_Yeung_Ma


You may like this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10415



Standing on one leg is ok, but trained improperly will develope bad habits. As with the hanging horse, and the wide horse stance.

We do not use these stances. The stance we use is as follows:

1. Arms withdrawn to chest, while standing with feet close together.
2. Bend knees slightly.
3.Pivot toe outwards.
4. Then pivot heels outwards. Toes should be pionted inward at about a 44 degree angle.
5. The knees are turned inwards towards each other.
6. You should have tension between your adduct muscles like sqeezing a ball. The tension is what will cause the spring energy and rooting.

[Mystic Wolf]

The Stance you speak of is

Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_siulientao_pose.jpg



http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#Yee_Jee_Kim_Yeung_Ma


You may like this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10415

We have always refered to this stance as basic stance or ready stance.

[Si-Je]

Is this "horse stance" what everyone uses when they train, spar, and fight? I thought that stance was for designed use with the dragon pole?
Basic stance is what helps against a grappling takedown, where you get your power, structure, and spring from.

[seasoned]

I have been studying Wing Chun for over thirteen years and one of the things I have noticed with other WC schools is lousy footwork with no rooting. That is pet pea of mine and it irritates me to see awsome hands with lousy foot work and no rooting.

Okinawan GoJu has roots back to China, have you heard of Sanchin kata, and is this kata similar to what you are talking about? Thank you

Sanchin in China
Variations of Sanchin kata occur in many Arahat/Lohan schools (monk fist), in White Crane schools and in Ngo Cho Kun or Wu Zu Quan (5 ancestor fist — a style based partly on White Crane and Lohan boxing).
It is said that “if you do not do Sanchin you do not do White Crane”. The Yong Chun (http://www.fujianbaihe.com/) white crane Sanzhan form appears to be closer to Goju (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/history_goju-ryu.htm)'s Tensho kata than it is to its Sanchin.
Purpose of Sanchin
Sanchin is regarded as the cornerstone of Goju-ryu (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/history_goju-ryu.htm) and hence of Muidokan karate. Its primary purpose is to as an "iron shirt" training tool. Initially the kata teaches basic posture, balance and breathing, but later it is used to develop correct tension to resist the impact of blows. A student's development of proper Sanchin is tested at the lower levels with examiners exerting resistance against the students techniques. From black belt onwards the test includes strictly controlled impacts. These are administered by experienced, senior examiners to ensure that no injury is done to the student.
As a student becomes more senior Sanchin kata begins to take on a "softer" or more internal appearance, eventually fulfilling the same function as zhan zhuang (a form of rooted posture mediation) in the internal art of Yi Quan (http://kungfuyiquan.free.fr/sitee/eyqprinc.html). It is at this stage that the long term aim (and form) of Sanchin kata is realised. An exercise for testing this aspect of Sanchin is Sanchin pushing, where students attempt "not to be pushed" rather than to push their training partner. The goal is to be able to resist a push using as little pushing action of your own as possible. Ultimately the key to success is to think of yourself as being immovable.
Sanchin kata (Miyagi version) is required from White 2 to Nidan 3.

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay my Sifu use to call this stance Lady Ma for short...YGKYM is the stance you call basic stance right?




We have always refered to this stance as basic stance or ready stance.


Si-Je question:
Is this "horse stance" what everyone uses when they train, spar, and fight? I thought that stance was for designed use with the dragon pole?
Basic stance is what helps against a grappling takedown, where you get your power, structure, and spring from.

Let make sure I understand you correctly?


Are you saying Basic Stance(YGKYM) is
http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:fk-tuaYMS1k_oM:http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_siulientao_pose.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_siulientao_pose.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D70309&usg=__Y4w4iSulRS_bglcTfdtnXDxRuRU=&h=200&w=133&sz=10&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=fk-tuaYMS1k_oM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=69&prev=/images%3Fq%3DYee%2BGee%2BKim%2BYeung%2BMa%2Bclampi ng%2Bgoat%2Bstance%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4R NWN_enUS307US307%26sa%3DN)http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:N3iMyIavLmsSdM:http://www.riograndewingchun.com/images/DSC00601%2520copy.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.riograndewingchun.com/images/DSC00601%2520copy.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.riograndewingchun.com/subpage2.html&usg=__o_E7mvg27Qq3SS0mb9ZkHeya-t4=&h=525&w=216&sz=109&hl=en&start=23&um=1&tbnid=N3iMyIavLmsSdM:&tbnh=132&tbnw=54&prev=/images%3Fq%3DWing%2BChun%2Bstance%26start%3D20%26n dsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4RNWN_enUS30 7US307%26sa%3DN)

And The Traditional Horse Stance(MaBu) is
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:SBe8MepKH8UAqM:http://www.wongkk.com/images-3/general-5/horse-stance05.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wongkk.com/images-3/general-5/horse-stance05.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wongkk.com/general-2/stance-training.html&usg=__vkOTIjOplc9A5NW0JTckPctlX50=&h=391&w=280&sz=18&hl=en&start=19&um=1&tbnid=SBe8MepKH8UAqM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHorse%2BStance%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%2 6hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4RNWN_enUS307US307%26sa%3DN)htt p://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:3MPStQaFEWoYmM:http://alexng.net/fsuwushu/reference/horse.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://alexng.net/fsuwushu/reference/horse.jpg&imgrefurl=http://alexng.net/fsuwushu/reference.html&usg=__LP-EJpLCz_NAZEYIaIAisgzG2Zc=&h=225&w=300&sz=34&hl=en&start=28&um=1&tbnid=3MPStQaFEWoYmM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3DRiding%2BHorse%2Bstance%26start%3D20% 26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4RNWN_enU S307US307%26sa%3DN)

[naneek]

thanks for the clarification yoshi, the pics you put up are useful to explain something that would be difficult to explain in writing. we also use this stance(hanging horse as you name it) but not much so far - sifu has not mentioned its name.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well in reality you can call it one leg stance...


thanks for the clarification yoshi, the pics you put up are useful to explain something that would be difficult to explain in writing. we also use this stance(hanging horse as you name it) but not much so far - sifu has not mentioned its name.


Seasoned:Very interesting I enjoy hearing your comments...
What does the word Ryu mean?

[Si-Je]

I wish I knew how you put those pictures on! lol!
Yes basic is the "lady" stance as I'm thinking of it.
And horse is the other. Just wondering if most WC schools are teaching the horse stance as a fighting stance, we're seeing it in alot of video's online and WC/WT/VT fighter's getting in rings with a similar looking stance like this horse stance and getting taken to the ground right away.
(or the one leg forward stance, but that's for another discussion. )

Seasoned, what you speak of with GoJu Ryu at the black belt levels with the pushing "without pushing" drills reminds me of a WC video of Sifu Fungs. I believe this is why the transition from Okinawian Kempo to WC/WT was easier for Sifu than for me, (coming from a JJJ background) because of the similaraties at higher levels.

This is power of foundation of "basic stance"
Hope you like it :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJzuNojxr7I

[Grunthos the Flatulent]

They loook like they are pooping. That's funny!

[mook jong man]

They loook like they are pooping. That's funny!

You know what is more funny ?

YOUR IGNORANCE .

[Bob Hubbard]

Report the problem posts folks. We'll take care of em. Thanks!

[Si-Je]

You know what is more funny ?

YOUR IGNORANCE .

I agree hon, but he knows not what he says. Sigh. I love that video, great demonstration of rooted stance. Another good one:

GRANDMASTER Jim Fung's Master does the same thing but while standing on a roll of quarters, I believe. Standing on said quarters with one foot no less. "hanging horse", while a young, strong man trys to push him off, and cannot. Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeusiQ93DXk

[seasoned]

Well in reality you can call it one leg stance...




Seasoned:Very interesting I enjoy hearing your comments...
What does the word Ryu mean?

GoJu Ryu means Hard/soft, way or path.
Go Ju Ryu

[mook jong man]

Is this "horse stance" what everyone uses when they train, spar, and fight? I thought that stance was for designed use with the dragon pole?
Basic stance is what helps against a grappling takedown, where you get your power, structure, and spring from.

You are correct the low horse stance should only be used with the pole , and it is also used in some parts of the knife form . The crouching position enables a lot of distance to be covered in one explosive movement , a must when weapons are involved as you are likely to only get one chance.

That is a damn good idea making the students move around in stance whilst in class , we had a similar thing , apart from the constant drilling into your head by instructors saying " SINK DOWN " and all the other stance exercises we did .

When ever you were being taught by the Master or senior instructors you were required to be in your stance with your hands pulled back , this served a couple of purposes .

It showed respect to who ever was teaching , instilled discipline into the school and also worked on your stance and the fists pulled back provided a stretch to the shoulders and chest which is condusive to fast striking .

It didn't matter if the instructor was just standing their talking for half an hour , you stayed in your stance . Same thing if you were in a grading you were in the stance the whole time ,which could go for two hours .

There were some people who thought this was a bit militaristic but they were dismissed as lefty pinko nancy boys who still wet the bed .

From memory doesn't the stance mean character -two - adduction stance or goat gripping stance , or something along those lines .

[Mystic Wolf]

From memory doesn't the stance mean character -two - adduction stance or goat gripping stance , or something along those lines .

Yes, we say gripping a basketball, because people in Amerca would not know those terms.

[mook jong man]

I agree hon, but he knows not what he says. Sigh. I love that video, great demonstration of rooted stance. Another good one:

GRANDMASTER Jim Fung's Master does the same thing but while standing on a roll of quarters, I believe. Standing on said quarters with one foot no less. "hanging horse", while a young, strong man trys to push him off, and cannot. Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeusiQ93DXk

The real freaky thing about that Si- Je is that he has done that demo standing on scales and as the dude starts to push on Sigung Tsui they look down at the scales and Sigungs weight starts to increase as he absorbs the guys force down into his stance .

[Si-Je]

Yes, we say gripping a basketball, because people in Amerca would not know those terms.

ROFL! I remember the first time Sifu Hubbie and I started teaching WC to Texans. lol!
He described the basic stance to the new students trying to get them to understand the position, and said, " put your knees in like your 'shearing a sheep'.
And the faces of the students was classic slap stick "duh?!"
So, I ran and got a volleyball (basketballs for some of the taller and larger guys) from the rec. center front counter, and made everyone hold the volleyball between their abduct area, the whole time they did Si Lum Tao, and learned chainpunching and deflections stationary.

Later with the kids class, I had "ball races" where the kids had to keep the ball between their legs while they raced eachother to from one wall to the next without dropping the ball or cheating. (believe me, the kids found alot of ways to cheat! lol! no hands, no 'carrying", if it drops you have to stop and reset, etc.) This was a great way to "trick" them into doing boring old stance work. lol! And a volleyball was too big for kiddos, had to buy some smaller balls at the dollar store. But it was their favorite game.
Then I had them play "Si-Je says" (like simon says) and that way I'd "trick" them into drilling deflections, chainpuches, kicks, steping, (picking your nose, lol!), etc. for long periods of time where they still had fun while training.
I have a couple of other games for the kids and "adults" too, but for a later thread. lol!

"Shearing the Sheep!" :)
Tell that to a Texan? But, that was what was sooooo cool about Sifu Fung, is that he could explain the chinese concepts and technique to any student. Reminds me of Shakespear. Great Master!

[mook jong man]

"Shakespear. GreatShearing the Sheep!" :)
Tell that to a Texan? But, that was what was sooooo cool about Sifu Fung, is that he could explain the chinese concepts and technique to any student. Reminds me of Master!
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/buttons/post_thanks.gif (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=1098165&securitytoken=1231041772-fb21429b700fc9376f265fe71b9e2a19184dd247)

Don't you have sheep in Texas ?
You think thats funny , when Sigung come to visit us once he got up on the stage in the school with a Boomerang and a rubber ball and was trying to explain to us advanced Wing Chun theory in cantonese through an interpreter , to this day I still have no idea what he was going on about , as far as I could glean it was something about circles .

[geezer]

The real freaky thing about that Si- Je is that he has done that demo standing on scales and as the dude starts to push on Sigung Tsui they look down at the scales and Sigungs weight starts to increase as he absorbs the guys force down into his stance .

That was a cool demo! Amazing skill, yes. But it isn't "freaky". It's physics... and exactly what you would expect. If you redirect force, its got to go somewhere. In this case, the horizontal push is redirected downward (into the scale). It's easy to understand, but wow! damn near impossible to actually do. Thanks again for sharing this.

[mook jong man]

Yeah physics wasn't my strong point in high school , I was probably behind the bike sheds smoking most of the time.

[Si-Je]

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Don't you have sheep in Texas ?
You think thats funny , when Sigung come to visit us once he got up on the stage in the school with a Boomerang and a rubber ball and was trying to explain to us advanced Wing Chun theory in cantonese through an interpreter , to this day I still have no idea what he was going on about , as far as I could glean it was something about circles .

Sure we have sheep in Texas. But let me explain...
We live in the city. and the city is like...
uh... 100 miles in circumrunce, before anyone sees a sheep.
so, we had to adapt it to where people would understand in our area. And that was basketballs and volleyballs.
I would love for master jim fungs teacher to come to texas, but no one here would know how to translate.
And we couldn't afford to give him a place to stay, escpecailly if we couldn't understand him when he speaks.
no disrespect. we just don't speak chinese.
I think they both are the most awesome wing chun masters EVER@!!!@
And that's why I put the link to their website, because I think people should be able to see this. Mastary of basic stance, mastery of wing chun, in a fashion that people don't ever get to see here in the United states.

Sifu hubbie had to study abroad. And he brings the knowledge he learned to the states, to Texas.
But, to describe the basic stance as "shearing sheep", believe it or not, Texans don't identify with that here in the city.
lol!
We don't ride horses to school or work everyday, we're not cowboys. We're not alot of things that people think we are. We're just regular city folks working a job in the city.
Hell, the metroplex is about 100 miles in circumference (yes, I know i misspelled it!) it's a city bigger than most states in the U.S.
I ment no disrespect. I just ment that the phrase "shearing sheep" wasn't working too well in the city of the metroplex of dallas/fort worth, so ... we call it "basic stance" and make folks hold "balls" basket or volleyball depending on their size, to teach them stance.

[Si-Je]

Yeah physics wasn't my strong point in high school , I was probably behind the bike sheds smoking most of the time.

Your funny, and naughty too! a combo I like in a friend! lol! SMOKER!
Me too, what a waste of time, NOT!
physics, smiciscys! it's all just like "looking away to the moon! Don't pay too much attention to the finger or you will miss all that HEAVELY GLORY!" lol! (Bruce lee) :)
"we need emotional content, not anger!" "feeeeeelll!"

[Yoshiyahu]

I don't think the Horse stance is used as the fighting stance..I could be wrong...I have not witness what you said...But the side stance is a little more fluid and gives your manueverabilty when fighting. Of course one should learn how to trasition quickly and smoothly between various stances...



I wish I knew how you put those pictures on! lol!
Yes basic is the "lady" stance as I'm thinking of it.

And horse is the other. Just wondering if most WC schools are teaching the horse stance as a fighting stance, we're seeing it in alot of video's online and WC/WT/VT fighter's getting in rings with a similar looking stance like this horse stance and getting taken to the ground right away.
(or the one leg forward stance, but that's for another discussion. )

Seasoned, what you speak of with GoJu Ryu at the black belt levels with the pushing "without pushing" drills reminds me of a WC video of Sifu Fungs. I believe this is why the transition from Okinawian Kempo to WC/WT was easier for Sifu than for me, (coming from a JJJ background) because of the similaraties at higher levels.

This is power of foundation of "basic stance"
Hope you like it :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJzuNojxr7I

[Yoshiyahu]

You are correct Mook Jong Man...Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma does mean Goat Clamping Stance....


You are correct the low horse stance should only be used with the pole , and it is also used in some parts of the knife form . The crouching position enables a lot of distance to be covered in one explosive movement , a must when weapons are involved as you are likely to only get one chance.

That is a damn good idea making the students move around in stance whilst in class , we had a similar thing , apart from the constant drilling into your head by instructors saying " SINK DOWN " and all the other stance exercises we did .

When ever you were being taught by the Master or senior instructors you were required to be in your stance with your hands pulled back , this served a couple of purposes .

It showed respect to who ever was teaching , instilled discipline into the school and also worked on your stance and the fists pulled back provided a stretch to the shoulders and chest which is condusive to fast striking .

It didn't matter if the instructor was just standing their talking for half an hour , you stayed in your stance . Same thing if you were in a grading you were in the stance the whole time ,which could go for two hours .

There were some people who thought this was a bit militaristic but they were dismissed as lefty pinko nancy boys who still wet the bed .

From memory doesn't the stance mean character -two - adduction stance or goat gripping stance , or something along those lines .

[Yoshiyahu]

I know call it protect your nutz stance...It comes in handy when someone is trying to kick you in the groin with a lifting a kick.

I actually was able to use it successful once when I told a Ex-Girlfriend something she didn't want to hear...Oh she tried to kick me and to her surprise I caught her foot with my knees...


At that point all of her anger was gone...because she realize she couldnt hurt me even when I wasn't aware of a strike coming.




Check this vid out Mystic Wolf...Here is a guy practicing the horse stance or Mabu...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NBnPNSwdLs

He looks like he is in pain and hasn't be doing it for one minute. man i remember those days. After 20 Minutes I would start feeling pain..My Sifu would say...hold that stance. get down there...An similair to Si-Je he would say lower the stance the greater the benefit...stay down there an don't miss all that heavenly glory...lol...

He meant Chi by the way...lol...ha ha....I didn't understand those stances build chi...After six months doing those stances I looked at my legs...wow...the ladies like my thigh muscles too...An I never did squats or leg presses just stance training for long periods...

Sure we have sheep in Texas. But let me explain...
We live in the city. and the city is like...
uh... 100 miles in circumrunce, before anyone sees a sheep.
so, we had to adapt it to where people would understand in our area. And that was basketballs and volleyballs.
I would love for master jim fungs teacher to come to texas, but no one here would know how to translate.
And we couldn't afford to give him a place to stay, escpecailly if we couldn't understand him when he speaks.
no disrespect. we just don't speak chinese.
I think they both are the most awesome wing chun masters EVER@!!!@
And that's why I put the link to their website, because I think people should be able to see this. Mastary of basic stance, mastery of wing chun, in a fashion that people don't ever get to see here in the United states.

Sifu hubbie had to study abroad. And he brings the knowledge he learned to the states, to Texas.
But, to describe the basic stance as "shearing sheep", believe it or not, Texans don't identify with that here in the city.
lol!
We don't ride horses to school or work everyday, we're not cowboys. We're not alot of things that people think we are. We're just regular city folks working a job in the city.
Hell, the metroplex is about 100 miles in circumference (yes, I know i misspelled it!) it's a city bigger than most states in the U.S.
I ment no disrespect. I just ment that the phrase "shearing sheep" wasn't working too well in the city of the metroplex of dallas/fort worth, so ... we call it "basic stance" and make folks hold "balls" basket or volleyball depending on their size, to teach them stance.

[mook jong man]

Sure we have sheep in Texas. But let me explain...
We live in the city. and the city is like...
uh... 100 miles in circumrunce, before anyone sees a sheep.
so, we had to adapt it to where people would understand in our area. And that was basketballs and volleyballs.
I would love for master jim fungs teacher to come to texas, but no one here would know how to translate.
And we couldn't afford to give him a place to stay, escpecailly if we couldn't understand him when he speaks.
no disrespect. we just don't speak chinese.
I think they both are the most awesome wing chun masters EVER@!!!@
And that's why I put the link to their website, because I think people should be able to see this. Mastary of basic stance, mastery of wing chun, in a fashion that people don't ever get to see here in the United states.

Sifu hubbie had to study abroad. And he brings the knowledge he learned to the states, to Texas.
But, to describe the basic stance as "shearing sheep", believe it or not, Texans don't identify with that here in the city.
lol!
We don't ride horses to school or work everyday, we're not cowboys. We're not alot of things that people think we are. We're just regular city folks working a job in the city.
Hell, the metroplex is about 100 miles in circumference (yes, I know i misspelled it!) it's a city bigger than most states in the U.S.
I ment no disrespect. I just ment that the phrase "shearing sheep" wasn't working too well in the city of the metroplex of dallas/fort worth, so ... we call it "basic stance" and make folks hold "balls" basket or volleyball depending on their size, to teach them stance.

Nah I didn't take any offence , I found it amusing they didn't know what shearing a sheep looked like , damn city slickers .

I know what Texas is like I watched a very educational documentary about it called Walker Texas Ranger most informative it was too.

Ha , I'm only kidding you , every place gets stereotyped . Its like Australia , tourists get off the plane and think they're going to see kangaroos hopping down the main street , and that we all walk around saying " Crikey " and spend our time wrestling crocodiles .

People can have some funny perceptions of places .

[Eru Ilúvatar]

This is sort of on topic.. I was wondering how many of you people use or were thought to use the Yee gee kim yeung ma as a fighting stance? I was thought that the Ygkym is more of a training stance to train the adduction, structure etc., but not to be used in actual fighting.. Allthough I do kind of relate to the WT rationalisation behind it. I like Emin Boztepes analogy somwhere along the lines that it's like a charged bow ready to shoot as soon as the opponent is at a certein distance. This days I'm experimenting with these idea and it makes sense to me in a way..

[mook jong man]

In the Tsui Seung Tin lineage the YGKYM stance is our fighting stance and the stance we practice in chi sau .

[geezer]

This is sort of on topic.. I was wondering how many of you people use or were thought to use the Yee gee kim yeung ma as a fighting stance? I was thought that the Ygkym is more of a training stance to train the adduction, structure etc...

Actually, this would make a great topic for a new thread. So, I'm going to steal your idea, Eru, (I have no shame) and do just that. Eru, Mook, Si-Je, Yoshi, et al... please join me!

[Si-Je]

Nah I didn't take any offence , I found it amusing they didn't know what shearing a sheep looked like , damn city slickers .

I know what Texas is like I watched a very educational documentary about it called Walker Texas Ranger most informative it was too.

Ha , I'm only kidding you , every place gets stereotyped . Its like Australia , tourists get off the plane and think they're going to see kangaroos hopping down the main street , and that we all walk around saying " Crikey " and spend our time wrestling crocodiles .

People can have some funny perceptions of places .

"Crikey!" ya mean there's no Kangoroos to meet ya at the airport? lol! I know what ya mean, and the cool thing about Walker Texas Ranger is that they film it in Dallas and Fort Worth, so it could be "educational", lol! The clubs, courthouses, and resturants you could "preview" and visit them when ya "come on down." :)

But, it was just funny to see the look on people's faces when sifu explaines the stance with the "sheep shearing" visual. :)

As for using the basic stance used in SLT and "shearing sheep". We use it as a fighting stance. I stayed in that stance for my entire match at tournament. You get used to it and as a fighting stance, and it gives you as much maneorvoablility as you could want. As well as structure, power, and stability.

[Si-Je]

Is this how "advanced stance" is being taught?
We were watching the stepping and footwork here, and I was wondering if many were learning footwork this way.
We do it differently, but this thread has educated me in the fact that folks are doing stance and footwork differently than what we've been taught..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTky4vOOy3A

[paulus]

Is this how "advanced stance" is being taught?
We were watching the stepping and footwork here, and I was wondering if many were learning footwork this way.
He actually calls it "basic stepping" in the video, but we don't train our footwork like that. I'd have to agree with one of the comments on the video in that he closes his feet too much for my liking. Also, his head rises and falls as he steps, whereas in our class it was always impressed on us to keep our heads level as we move. I'm not saying either method is wrong, just that we do things differently.

[seasoned]

Is this how "advanced stance" is being taught?
We were watching the stepping and footwork here, and I was wondering if many were learning footwork this way.
We do it differently, but this thread has educated me in the fact that folks are doing stance and footwork differently than what we've been taught..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTky4vOOy3A

Si-Je, how are you?

Ma stepping is such a new concept, to people coming into the dojo, with desire, but no idea of movement in fighting. It seems that they, like a baby, have to learn how to walk, before they can learn to run. This basic step in the video, of moving the front foot forward and sliding the back foot up, over and over, helped me many years ago, to gain the muscle memory to own all of my stances. This is also how I teach new students. :asian:

[Si-Je]

Si-Je, how are you?

Ma stepping is such a new concept, to people coming into the dojo, with desire, but no idea of movement in fighting. It seems that they, like a baby, have to learn how to walk, before they can learn to run. This basic step in the video, of moving the front foot forward and sliding the back foot up, over and over, helped me many years ago, to gain the muscle memory to own all of my stances. This is also how I teach new students. :asian:



Oh, I understand that. I'm just realizing that other schools are teaching stance very differently than what Sifu hubbie's taught me. I didn't know about that until, well, today. :)
He taught me that stance completely differently from day one than what was being done in the video.

But the question of basic stance not being readilly useable in a surprise attack or from standing regularly really made me think, and make a little video. :)
Sifu has us stand normally and shift into basic stance, sometimes pushing us to where we have to step into basic quickly. It becomes very natural, we do this with our hands down too.


We went outside and made a little video real quick to show how versitile the basic stance is in moving naturally, and how quickly you can be rooted from a normal standing position going directly to basic stance. I tried to find more video's on youtube with stance work and couldn't find very many.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCmSHFI8238

[Yoshiyahu]

Well Personally I believe every Martial Arts stance can be used both as a training stance and fighting stance...The key is to learn how to fight in the stance. Doing Defense drills and sparring in stance will aide in this pursuit. Also working on foot work will increase your stability enormously.



This is sort of on topic.. I was wondering how many of you people use or were thought to use the Yee gee kim yeung ma as a fighting stance? I was thought that the Ygkym is more of a training stance to train the adduction, structure etc., but not to be used in actual fighting.. Allthough I do kind of relate to the WT rationalisation behind it. I like Emin Boztepes analogy somwhere along the lines that it's like a charged bow ready to shoot as soon as the opponent is at a certein distance. This days I'm experimenting with these idea and it makes sense to me in a way..

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea. I just watch your video...a new one eh...great vid...Yea in my lineage we do the C-Step and also the step forward where the back foot slides and the front goes forward. Simliar to guy in the video...The C-step or half circle step you also do in the video...where the back foot goes close to foot up front then swings around infront...As for Wong's head dropping...I think he is looking down because he doing an instructional video...When he does actual applications his head doesn't drop like that...Also he is taking really tiny baby steps at first it seems...



Augstine Fong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39LLwh7fkpo) Lineage Footwork reminds me of Yours Sije...Click His name to see video.
Here is a Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTo3iSoMldU&feature=related)Showing Wing Chun Front Step as well. We do a front step similiar to this...But the Feet distance are not right to me. Plus we add more thrust to our step to add more body power behind the punch. But its good to practice it slow and small as well as a powerful step too. I seen a step in Xing Yi Quan that reminds me of our Wing Chun Front step the way my Sifu performs it. We do it both small steps and forceful steps similiar in Xing Yi Quan.
Click on this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1-lDd-TId0) (The First and Fourth Step he takes reminds me of WC front step.)



Also check out this Xing Yi Quan Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijp92VkdDUU). Sometimes spelled Xsing I Chuan. Every time he steps forward and punch with out switching legs Is the step I am speaking of...Also the movie The Prodigal Son will share with you why the Steps are not that extravagant. The reason I found from practice is the Steps enable you move comfortably in small amount a room. Perfect for fighting inside. Also If your in a small space it works well too. Like in between two cars, In a small hallway, Inside a bathroom, In a alley way or even fighting in small space where you have furniture and stuff that you can bang up against and injury yourself if your not careful. So the steps are great for generating power, Neutralizing force, an give you exceptional mobility with in small amout room lets say up close and personal like toe to toe in trapping or grappling range!



Oh, I understand that. I'm just realizing that other schools are teaching stance very differently than what Sifu hubbie's taught me. I didn't know about that until, well, today. :)
He taught me that stance completely differently from day one than what was being done in the video.

But the question of basic stance not being readilly useable in a surprise attack or from standing regularly really made me think, and make a little video. :)
Sifu has us stand normally and shift into basic stance, sometimes pushing us to where we have to step into basic quickly. It becomes very natural, we do this with our hands down too.


We went outside and made a little video real quick to show how versitile the basic stance is in moving naturally, and how quickly you can be rooted from a normal standing position going directly to basic stance. I tried to find more video's on youtube with stance work and couldn't find very many.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCmSHFI8238

[mook jong man]

He actually calls it "basic stepping" in the video, but we don't train our footwork like that. I'd have to agree with one of the comments on the video in that he closes his feet too much for my liking. Also, his head rises and falls as he steps, whereas in our class it was always impressed on us to keep our heads level as we move. I'm not saying either method is wrong, just that we do things differently.

I could not agree with you more Paulus , that bloke was up and down like a bloody yo yo. I also come from the head level school of thought , one helpful tip that was told to me was when you are practicing your Chum Kiu in front of the mirror look at your eyes and make sure when you step that your eyes are tracking a line straight across and not going up and down .

[Yoshiyahu]

Very interesting observation.



I could not agree with you more Paulus , that bloke was up and down like a bloody yo yo. I also come from the head level school of thought , one helpful tip that was told to me was when you are practicing your Chum Kiu in front of the mirror look at your eyes and make sure when you step that your eyes are tracking a line straight across and not going up and down .