Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[dungeonworks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkkfTOfcZtA

The above link it to a video with a great camera angle my point is based from....that point being that BJJ and WC/T can easily flow together. They both are designed for the smaller fighter to be a step more equal to a larger and likely stronger opponent. This video shows a simple sweep by Rener Gracie to off balance and reverse position from an attacker that has you fully mounted. This technique here has trapping (not WC/T, but not all that different is the intent of the trap), not just with hands but legs as well.

In my opinion, I think BJJ would be a great addition to Wing Chun/Tsun and not all that difficult for the 'Chunner to grasp whilst staying to the 'Chun principles in most cases.

[dungeonworks]

Is it just me or does anyone else see off balancing, keeping oponent off of your center, using leverage and trapping???

[Nolerama]

I'm sure it's been done. And I think a striking art combined with a grappling art is a great combination. However, it's up to the practitioner to "blend" those styles so they work together.

[arnisador]

The large number of people doing JKD/BJJ are thinking similarly!

[dungeonworks]

I'm sure it's been done. And I think a striking art combined with a grappling art is a great combination. However, it's up to the practitioner to "blend" those styles so they work together.

Yeah, I agree with that too. I think the BJJ/WC flows better than say, Karate or TKD and BJJ does with the mechanics of both being more natural for lack of better word.

Do you guys do any Wing Chun/Tsun in your MMA work? Which stand up do you guys use for the most part. I know the MMA group I was training with used mostly Muay Thai and Boxing.

[dungeonworks]

The large number of people doing JKD/BJJ are thinking similarly!

Good point, but the JKD I have seen still uses Muay Thai for the most part. The one JKD school I most recently looked at deffinately uses both MT and WC/T, just depends on the day as they focus Kali one day, Jun Fan, and MT/CSW the next.

I started this thread more as an off shoot of another as an effort to not hijack it and also to see what other Chunners, both traditional only and cross trained ala Kamon, EBMAS...ect. do for ground work. I was going to switch the JKD but new things have happened at my job and my new schedule messed that up...and I started missing Wing Chun pretty bad...much the same as I miss grappling at the MMA school.

[arnisador]

Where I train it's WC+MT+Boxing, with some FMA...plus a paired BJJ class.

[Si-Je]

Good point, but the JKD I have seen still uses Muay Thai for the most part. The one JKD school I most recently looked at deffinately uses both MT and WC/T, just depends on the day as they focus Kali one day, Jun Fan, and MT/CSW the next.

I started this thread more as an off shoot of another as an effort to not hijack it and also to see what other Chunners, both traditional only and cross trained ala Kamon, EBMAS...ect. do for ground work. I was going to switch the JKD but new things have happened at my job and my new schedule messed that up...and I started missing Wing Chun pretty bad...much the same as I miss grappling at the MMA school.

I think you all know what I would say to this. So, I'll leave that alone.
But, I didn't know that EBMAS cross trained grappling into their art. I know Kamon does with BJJ, but I wasn't aware that EBMAS mixed grappling or BJJ in their style.

But, honestly, if you train WC/WT enough you'll be able to defend against a grappler or BJJ stylist without resorting to cross-training to "supplement" the art. It's good to train against other styles to keep you sharp and such in a sparring fashion. But, I've seen that cross-training really messes up a student's Wing Chun training.

[Blindside]

But, honestly, if you train WC/WT enough you'll be able to defend against a grappler or BJJ stylist without resorting to cross-training to "supplement" the art. It's good to train against other styles to keep you sharp and such in a sparring fashion. But, I've seen that cross-training really messes up a student's Wing Chun training.

How much is "enough?" And by "defend" do you mean "not go to the ground?" 'Cause it didn't seem to work for these two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk

[seasoned]

How much is "enough?" And by "defend" do you mean "not go to the ground?" 'Cause it didn't seem to work for these two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk



Let me add that while he is mounting you he is open for a groin strike. I see an elbow fitting in very nicely. Is this sport or SD, am I reading this wrong. If so I will go on to the next thread.

[seasoned]

Let me add that while he is mounting you he is open for a groin strike. I see an elbow fitting in very nicely. Is this sport or SD, am I reading this wrong. If so I will go on to the next thread.

Sorry, I was looking at this first youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkkfTOfcZtA


The one you show is a bit differant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk

[dungeonworks]

I think you all know what I would say to this. So, I'll leave that alone.
But, I didn't know that EBMAS cross trained grappling into their art. I know Kamon does with BJJ, but I wasn't aware that EBMAS mixed grappling or BJJ in their style.

But, honestly, if you train WC/WT enough you'll be able to defend against a grappler or BJJ stylist without resorting to cross-training to "supplement" the art. It's good to train against other styles to keep you sharp and such in a sparring fashion. But, I've seen that cross-training really messes up a student's Wing Chun training.


My Bad!!!! I meant Alan Orr's Wing Chun!!! I was thinking other cross training with EBMAS and FMA. Was just on the phone with a friend talking about that.

In my opinion, I do not believe any one system has the answer for everything, just to clarify my thoughts....not even Wing Chun. As you can see by the video posted, even Wing Chun masters could use help from a grappling system...ANY GRAPPLING SYSTEM!!! LOL That tape is an embarrassment to Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Weng Chun....EVERY flavor of Wing Chun.

[dungeonworks]

Sorry, I was looking at this first youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkkfTOfcZtA


The one you show is a bit differant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk


I still agree with what you said originally, he is open for a groin shot....IF you could get one fired off in time. That's the thing with any technique in any situation...the IF variable. I have been in that predicament in street fights a couple times and usually, Bob the Brawler will be raining blows to your face and that leaves me occupied trying to cover and better my position....which is very hard when it is a wrestler. Heck, I tried grabbing the one guys balls but his jeans were so tight they acted as a bit if a shield as my grip couldn't penetrate the denim of the Jordaches'! LOL (Yes, this happened in the late 80's!)

[Yoshiyahu]

Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?

[seasoned]

Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?

This is only conversation. As you know from my past posts I am a stand up fighter with some ground capabilities. In the art of war we need to be functional in all situations, and I believe any traditional art, is all inclusive. We have 4 limbs to strike with, but I am not naïve to think I won’t end up on my back. If I do the fight is not over, just another position to strike from. I personally don’t care about winning or losing, just surviving, and stopping the threat.

[Si-Je]

Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.
A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.
What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.

As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
So.
That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.

Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThnbP-rkP90

The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.

[jarrod]

Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?

personally speaking, the ground comes naturally to me. it's not a belief that groundfighting is in itself superior, it's just superior for me.


Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.
A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.
What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.

As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
So.
That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.

Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThnbP-rkP90

The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.




the problem with emin's stuff that i've seen is that he usually is demonstrating how to anti-grapple someone who is not a good grappler. it seems like it would be effective against an untrained guy who maybe tries to drag you to the ground, but his techniques often seem to capitalize on one or two crucial mistakes that a good grappler shouldn't make.

jf

[Yoshiyahu]

So let me put things in to focus...What Si-Je appears to be saying is BJJ sucks..It sucks bad...its one side and if you use it in street your gonna get hurt bad...BJJ is over commercialize...But I could be wrong...she may not be saying that...

I also think she is saying that grappling and wrestling are good arts...Just not BJJ...if you practice Judo, JuiJitsu or Aikido or even Wrestling thats good. But BJJ sucks bad...Its a horrible Art...if you want to combine arts combine Judo and WC or Juijitsu and WC...But leave that BJJ alone...

So tell me am I correct in what you thinking Si-Je...if I am wrong I stand corrected...lol..


I personally have not met any BJJ fighters. So I can not judge rightfully. I have not had the priviledge of that experience. But I think the art depends on the purpose...I could understand why somepeople would want to mesh the two..Their thinking I will gain skills fighting and submissions on ground from BJJ and standing fighting from WC...chances are in streets you may use more WC than BJJ...and if you go to ground you might get stabbed or stomped by ten size tens in your dome...let me make simple...the average thug aint fighting one on one...They bringing their friends...to jump you...two big thugs is enough to injury you bad if you do a take down...So just becareful...But as for the cage...I don't know...how is bjj doing?




Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.
A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.
What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.

As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
So.
That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.

Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThnbP-rkP90

The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.

[dungeonworks]

Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?


Just as Seasoned mentioned...it is another place to be effective. I too am a striker and would much rather pound it out with someone rather than roll, but...at least eighty percent of my adulthood streetfights went to the ground if not only for a few moments. Sometimes, I was able to out scramble and stand while others, it was too much for me to out wrestle a better grappler. In a nutshell, if I am facing a quicker striker that is not as strong as I am, you bet your arse I want to get him to the ground and negate the barrage of fists in my face. If I am facing a stronger guy, no way! I would rather pick him apart or make him want to stop by fighting at a longer range (think kickboxing or Tae Kwon Do). If that is not possible, then I want the arsenal and attributes I am learning in Wing Chun. You see, I am a Koei-Kan-Karate and kickboxer learning Wing Chun at this point. I have not the skill in Wing Chun to be able to rely on it at this point but that is changing slowly. I also trained MMA/Grappling for almost a couple of years and sparring MMA rules gave me a new light on how "I" aproach my training and helped clarify what I want to work on. Throw in the fact that I am 36 and just not the spring chicken I once was and the window of oppurtunity for me to fight the way I have relied upon to this point in my life, well....sometime soon, I will not have youth on my side nor the ability to rely on athletic ability alone. It took untill my early thirties to realize I am getting older and my atheletic attributes are slowly eroding. Wing Chun fits the bill for me.

To make a long story short, I am training with the fact in mind that grappling and kickboxing are not going to be my best face card to play when needed in the coming years. I see 50+ year old men in Wing Chun that would SMOKE me on my best day in a fight and rather quickly to boot. Same with the Fillipino styles. The Chuners and Fillipino guys aren't limping and crippled like so many elder players in the kickboxing, Judo, or MMA crowd. The ones that are limping and hobbling around still can turn it on using Wing Chun. That's what I am after. That's why I study Wing Chun with an eye on grappling. NOBODY has the choice in every altercation to fight the range you are most comfortable and therefore you need to at least be familiar with grappling because you may end up there from the start eg....jumped, slip and fall, trip..ect.

[dungeonworks]

Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.
A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.
What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.

As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
So.
That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.

Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThnbP-rkP90

The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.



Groin shots are not always fight enders. Actually, in fights I have seen in person or been in myself, I have never seen one end from them. Also, I personally never said BJJ uses Wing Chun principles. What I said was that some principles of Wing Chun can be used in BJJ and may actually work good. Carlson Gracie Jr. said this as well and did seminars with a well known Wing Chun Sifu to illistrate this point.

It is no secret that you personally dislike BJJ, and that is totally fine and I personally respect your opinion on that. I can't say one system is better than the other because I see them complementary to eachother...but that is from what I see and have experienced. Will I feel the same way in 5yrs or more, once I have grasped Wing Chun to a functional level? I don't know....cannot answer that at this moment. I have Kickboxing and Karate attributes thoroughly ingrained in my body at this time and am open to seeing anything from any style and call it as I see it and have seen it.

We can pick apart any technique or any scenario and look from the outside in and all see a dozen ways to avoid or take advatage in that situation. What I am after is doing it as efficiently as possible as it happens from a first person perspective. I have been in plenty of fights to have a good understanding of how I do things and where I would like to improve. Sensitivity, sticking, redirecting, controlling the centerline, and getting back to a position where I can do that from the ground is one of them. Training BJJ and other ground work looks to be a great place to start to accomplish that. The Gracie's have a library of video proof and have put their money where their mouth's are to prove their system on mats, tile floors, and beaches. What more proof could I need?

As far as BJJ living on over marketing.....HAAAAAHAHAHAHA! That is good! They have one of the most comprehensive and best quality control systems in their ranking than in anyother martial art I have seen. A Purple belt in one school is going to be on par with a Purple belt in another. They have kept good controls in their ranking quality. I cannot say the same for Karate, TKD, or other traditional styles. I have not seen enough practitioners from other Wing Chun/Tsun schools to make that asessment nor would I know how to judge that either. I do know that aside the Emin video and Alan Orr's student's fighting MMA on YouTube, I have seen nothing of Wing Chun in action to prove or disprove the style....just the abilities of the guys I train with. I won't mention the two guys from the first UFC's.

[MJS]

the problem with emin's stuff that i've seen is that he usually is demonstrating how to anti-grapple someone who is not a good grappler. it seems like it would be effective against an untrained guy who maybe tries to drag you to the ground, but his techniques often seem to capitalize on one or two crucial mistakes that a good grappler shouldn't make.

jf

I was thinking the same thing. And at risk of sounding like the other group...you know, the ones that eat, breath, sleep and poop BJJ...I do think it would be interesting to see the art (WC) against a grappler who is really working BJJ, not dummying. Frankly, I'd love to see the Gracie/Emin fight, but I doubt that'll ever happen. I'd love to see a good WC fighter in the UFC or similar event, as well.


So let me put things in to focus...What Si-Je appears to be saying is BJJ sucks..It sucks bad...its one side and if you use it in street your gonna get hurt bad...BJJ is over commercialize...But I could be wrong...she may not be saying that...

I also think she is saying that grappling and wrestling are good arts...Just not BJJ...if you practice Judo, JuiJitsu or Aikido or even Wrestling thats good. But BJJ sucks bad...Its a horrible Art...if you want to combine arts combine Judo and WC or Juijitsu and WC...But leave that BJJ alone...

So tell me am I correct in what you thinking Si-Je...if I am wrong I stand corrected...lol..

Umm...yeah, that about sums it up I think.



I personally have not met any BJJ fighters. So I can not judge rightfully. I have not had the priviledge of that experience. But I think the art depends on the purpose...I could understand why somepeople would want to mesh the two..Their thinking I will gain skills fighting and submissions on ground from BJJ and standing fighting from WC...chances are in streets you may use more WC than BJJ...and if you go to ground you might get stabbed or stomped by ten size tens in your dome...let me make simple...the average thug aint fighting one on one...They bringing their friends...to jump you...two big thugs is enough to injury you bad if you do a take down...So just becareful...But as for the cage...I don't know...how is bjj doing?

Yup, that sums it up. IMO, I feel that it gives great ground defense/offense. In the real world, would I want to roll around looking for a submission? Of course not, and for the reasons that have been mentioned countless times.

[arnisador]

Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?

It certainly could...drop below a chain punch for a double-leg takedown to change the dynamic of the fight--but it's also a matter of being prepared!

[Si-Je]

Yes, you have it! lol! Leave that BJJ alone. hahaha.
BJJ hasn't been winning so much in the cage either, strikers are winning, and alot of these big champs are devoted martial artists to their respective styles. Good old Iceman, Kempo guy, that Japanese Karate guy he's 100% martial artist (can't remeber his name) then good old Cung Lee, he's wushu champ and now middle heavyweight champ in MMA for Elite Sports I believe.
Ya'll dig up the names, don't have time.

Plus, what I'm also saying is that once you really get the WC/WT concepts and techniques down you don't need the Judo, Ju-jitsu, Aikido, whatever. You start to strip away the inessentials.

As for Carlson Gracie Jr., I don't care about what he advises as practical fighting. I don't care what he says is Wing Chun. Yes, I see ya'll like the BJJ, it's like crack to you or something, can't let it alone. Here on a Wing Chun forum getting all amped up on BJJ posting their videos giving free advertising. lol!
It's very interesting the way the collective memory and thought works and you see it in action here. I'm fighting for thought. Thought to stay pure to what I train without perverting, twisting, or watering it down with other arts concepts of fighting. This is spreading like a disease, and the cure will be VIDEO PROOF! (the crowd goes wild!!!)
We will work very dilligently on gaining a "video library" of whatever "fights" we can get hubbie into. Since he's the "Sifu" and that's what ya'll will want to see. But, this will take time, and volenteers! lol! Which we've had bum luck getting big guys to come and sparr with hubbie. We've recruited right out of the gyms where the guys pump the big iron, to other MMA schools, etc. No luck, no one wants to really do it when it comes right down to it. So, you'll just have to be happy with video from him and students, he'll get some more marine guys in class soon that train MCMAP. They'll be great! Nice and stiff, rigid and tough to take a punch. And fisty (non-compliant) lol!
When we get the funds in the next couple of months we will register hubbie, get the medical ('cuz he be older man), and all that jazz and hook up a nice little cage match for ya'll.
I'm sorry the cage match I posted from the other school in New York wasn't enough for your appetites. Will try to find more soon.
But, I'm afraid your just going to have to wait.


So let me put things in to focus...What Si-Je appears to be saying is BJJ sucks..It sucks bad...its one side and if you use it in street your gonna get hurt bad...BJJ is over commercialize...But I could be wrong...she may not be saying that...

I also think she is saying that grappling and wrestling are good arts...Just not BJJ...if you practice Judo, JuiJitsu or Aikido or even Wrestling thats good. But BJJ sucks bad...Its a horrible Art...if you want to combine arts combine Judo and WC or Juijitsu and WC...But leave that BJJ alone...

So tell me am I correct in what you thinking Si-Je...if I am wrong I stand corrected...lol..


I personally have not met any BJJ fighters. So I can not judge rightfully. I have not had the priviledge of that experience. But I think the art depends on the purpose...I could understand why somepeople would want to mesh the two..Their thinking I will gain skills fighting and submissions on ground from BJJ and standing fighting from WC...chances are in streets you may use more WC than BJJ...and if you go to ground you might get stabbed or stomped by ten size tens in your dome...let me make simple...the average thug aint fighting one on one...They bringing their friends...to jump you...two big thugs is enough to injury you bad if you do a take down...So just becareful...But as for the cage...I don't know...how is bjj doing?

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay...Thats actually one of the points I was sharing with Si-Je...some westerners are better boxers or ground wrestlers...So for them to gravitate to wrestling or cross train makes their style come alive...because they usually have to make up for what they lack in their art with something their body is design for...Some people are design to wrestlers...I got a friend he is like 6'4" and 280lbs on a diet. lol...But he would do well using Wrestling techniques and Muay Thai In my humble opinion...I would think Wing Chun would be good for him...but since he so big...bigger than the average street brawler...He has alot strength anyway...so Wrestling would be a great art for him...then he adds some Muay Thai too it...He would be a dangerous guy...I mean the minute he kicks someone with one of those logs...they going to buckle...Put this way...If This guy got six months of training in Muay Thai....I doubt Kimbo Slice would fight in backyard street fight. An then with his size advantage the average five eleven six foot guy would no chance even wrestling him...

So I can see some advantage...but if your a little guy...you may want a style that relies on knock punches and speed...little guys are more equip to styles that have skills in movements...this is what will benefit them..

[quote=jarrod;1095653]personally speaking, the ground comes naturally to me. it's not a belief that groundfighting is in itself superior, it's just superior for me.

[jarrod]

Okay...Thats actually one of the points I was sharing with Si-Je...some westerners are better boxers or ground wrestlers...So for them to gravitate to wrestling or cross train makes their style come alive...because they usually have to make up for what they lack in their art with something their body is design for...Some people are design to wrestlers...I got a friend he is like 6'4" and 280lbs on a diet. lol...But he would do well using Wrestling techniques and Muay Thai In my humble opinion...I would think Wing Chun would be good for him...but since he so big...bigger than the average street brawler...He has alot strength anyway...so Wrestling would be a great art for him...then he adds some Muay Thai too it...He would be a dangerous guy...I mean the minute he kicks someone with one of those logs...they going to buckle...Put this way...If This guy got six months of training in Muay Thai....I doubt Kimbo Slice would fight in backyard street fight. An then with his size advantage the average five eleven six foot guy would no chance even wrestling him...

So I can see some advantage...but if your a little guy...you may want a style that relies on knock punches and speed...little guys are more equip to styles that have skills in movements...this is what will benefit them..


personally speaking, the ground comes naturally to me. it's not a belief that groundfighting is in itself superior, it's just superior for me.

one of the things i disagree with si-je about is that jujitsu secretly relies on strength. when i started grappling i was 150lbs, & with a little practice i was able to tap guys 200-300lbs. so i know that with proper technique jujitsu can overcome strength. i don't train bjj, & i have my criticisms of it, but i have trained with enough bjj guys that i respect it. virtually every mma champion out there has some training in bjj, even if it's not their primary style. fedor doesn't, but he is excellent at sambo & judo, which is still grappling.

jf

[KamonGuy2]

Firstly, to answer the whole 'BJJ hasn't been doing so well in the cage lately' comment by Sije - When fighters fight in the cage, they come from one end of the cage to the other and meet in the middle, meaning that the striker has the first move (ie unless the BJJ guy runs in and goes for a takedown, he will have to receive shots from the striker)

You will find that most MMA guys use BJJ, just like most MMA guys also use striking. Hence why it is called MMA...

Going back to the original thread, it is not essential that chunners learn BJJ, but it is extremely important that they learn some kind of ground game

In Kamon, although BJJ is encouraged, Master Chan would be just as happy to see his senior students proficient in catch wrestling or sambo etc

You cannot live your wing chun lives with the motto 'I will never go to ground'. In most cases it is extremely difficult for a chunner to get taken down, but think of situations where a person pushes you back over a car bonnet, a table in a pub, or when you trip over or get another person tackling you from behind

If people are so adamant and blind to say they will NEVER get taken down, then I don't really have time for intelligent conversation with them

BJJ is a good match in wing chun because it is more about sticking and trapping your opponent than most grappling styles. It also doesn't worry too much about strength. Obviously it is always better to have a bit of strength, but because BJJ works using leverage and angles, it is a very good fit with Wing Chun

Remember that you really only need the basic principles of BJJ. I am definately no master, but if I get taken down, I know basic positions that will greatly increase my chances of safety. Generally you always want to get back to the position you started from (standing up), so I don't work too much on things like arm bars or locks because they are more for sport

[MJS]

one of the things i disagree with si-je about is that jujitsu secretly relies on strength. when i started grappling i was 150lbs, & with a little practice i was able to tap guys 200-300lbs. so i know that with proper technique jujitsu can overcome strength. i don't train bjj, & i have my criticisms of it, but i have trained with enough bjj guys that i respect it. virtually every mma champion out there has some training in bjj, even if it's not their primary style. fedor doesn't, but he is excellent at sambo & judo, which is still grappling.

jf

This is exactly the point I was trying to get across as well. If we look back at Helio Gracie, he states that he adapted the art to suit him, due to his small frame. It apparently worked for him. Hmmmm.......

[MJS]

Firstly, to answer the whole 'BJJ hasn't been doing so well in the cage lately' comment by Sije - When fighters fight in the cage, they come from one end of the cage to the other and meet in the middle, meaning that the striker has the first move (ie unless the BJJ guy runs in and goes for a takedown, he will have to receive shots from the striker)

Agreed. One thing that I've noticed is that the fighters of today have changed their focus from what the UFC used to be. Early days had shown a style vs. style match, where Royce used his JJ skill to dominate. He clinched, got a strong position and went in for the sub. Today, we see the G&P much more, yet fighters do have some sort of grappling background.


You will find that most MMA guys use BJJ, just like most MMA guys also use striking. Hence why it is called MMA...

Agree.


Going back to the original thread, it is not essential that chunners learn BJJ, but it is extremely important that they learn some kind of ground game

In Kamon, although BJJ is encouraged, Master Chan would be just as happy to see his senior students proficient in catch wrestling or sambo etc

Agree, and while I have mentioned BJJ alot, I've also mentioned other grappling arts, ie Sambo, Judo and even working with a wrestler, seeing that this was the topic of the thread.


You cannot live your wing chun lives with the motto 'I will never go to ground'. In most cases it is extremely difficult for a chunner to get taken down, but think of situations where a person pushes you back over a car bonnet, a table in a pub, or when you trip over or get another person tackling you from behind

If people are so adamant and blind to say they will NEVER get taken down, then I don't really have time for intelligent conversation with them

Sadly, this mindset is present in every art. I hear Kenpo guys talking about solid stances, etc., but I'm sorry, if it was that easy, I'd think that the MMA guys would be going out to find this secret solid stance method, and adapt it to their training so they'd never get taken down. Of course, they also seem to forget that its possible to slip, so having knowledge of getting back up safely is important as well. :)


BJJ is a good match in wing chun because it is more about sticking and trapping your opponent than most grappling styles. It also doesn't worry too much about strength. Obviously it is always better to have a bit of strength, but because BJJ works using leverage and angles, it is a very good fit with Wing Chun

Agreed. IMHO the majority of success starts with a solid position. If you dont have a solid position, where everything is just right, any sub. you attempt will most likely fail. I roll with one of my teachers and he will get me in the side mount. Its so hard to move as well as breath, due to the fact that he has everything so tight.


Remember that you really only need the basic principles of BJJ. I am definately no master, but if I get taken down, I know basic positions that will greatly increase my chances of safety. Generally you always want to get back to the position you started from (standing up), so I don't work too much on things like arm bars or locks because they are more for sport

Exactly! I'm far from a master myself. Likewise, I work the basics and its worked for me. :) I love to roll and that is one of my 2009 goals...to get on the mat on a more regular basis. :)

[profesormental]

Greetings.

First of all, grappling is FUN to me and my students!!

Just as we play Chi Sao, we play grappling!

Specially for competitive minded people, it is a nice set of rules that you can go all out and control a person.

I started BJJ to learn how to defend against it... and I fell in love with just playing around and having fun! Like a sport.

Some play basketball, I grapple and kickbox and fight!

In the end, it just depends how you train. Biomechanical principles as applied to sports or combat are the fundamental laws that have to be used and applied.

When we train Wing Chun for self defense and personal combat... it is very different than when we play grappling or Chi Sao.

Yet when my objectives are restraint and control of attacker, then I don't blow up their face with strikes... I can use Chin Na that has an expanded toolbox of Kano JuJutsu in it. (BJJ is old school Kano Jujutsu, just in case you don't like BJJ... ;) )

So we have sports training time for different competitions. This training slot we can use for grappling. We also train different kickboxing rules, like San Da, and sometimes mix it up MMA style.

We have a slot for learning good body mechanics and drills.

And we have slots for personal combat applications to scenarios and self defense simulations.

So, In my case, I just like training in grappling/BJJ and have found good learnings in it. Many other reasons, yet that is the one that matters the most.

Juan M. Mercado

[dungeonworks]

Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.

You may think that this technique is applied that slow in real time. It isn't...it happens quickly. If the guy is "punching your lights out", he cannot be stabilizing himself with his arm and leg trapped at the same time you send him flying. Think of a kickstand being knocked out from under a bicycle.


A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.

There again, coulda', shoulda', woulda'. Easy to see from third person view, while the people are going slow to show the technique. It is used much faster than that and thier are variables not seen from 3rd person. Besides that, groin strikes are far too overated.


What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.

Yeah, one can really let their hands go with a BJJ guy on top of you...totally unimpeded!!! :BSmeter:


As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
So.
That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.

Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThnbP-rkP90

The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.



When I started this thread, it wasn't a Wing Chun vs BJJ, nor has anyone said to use it over Wing Chun.....


Oh hell, nevermind.... :argue:

You're right. :)

[Steve]

I'm content to allow Si-Je her zeal for keeping her wing chun pure. I just can't allow the BJJ not doing well "in the cage" comment to go. UFC 91 was a showcase, between Maia's total domination of Nate Quarry and win by RNC, Hazelett's win by armbar over McRory in what was one of the best examples of pure rubber guard I've ever seen, and Kenny Florian's RNC win over Joe Stephenson, who's base is wrestling and has himself won many fights by guillotine.

It goes in waves, but every fighter has a strong grappling foundation.

[Si-Je]

Okay guys, I get hyper and am not clear sometimes. BJJ has been beaten in the ring several times, it is totally possible to defeat a takedown with striking concepts, that's my main point. It is possible to use 100% wing chun to defend against a wrestler/BJJ whatever strickly ground fighting style. It has been done numerous times.
Yes, people have been tapped out.

To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure. (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".
So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.
BUT..
That larger opponent has other limbs, moving, punching, kicking, elbowing limbs to deal with while you concentrate all your time and effort on one joint. See?

I started adapting WT/WC concepts to the JJJ I used to know so well, just to find out it stopped being JJJ technique. WT/WC has joint locks too, but they are done very differently. They are usually done with only one hand or arm on the joint, with no "lock out" on the arm or wrist. This leaves your other hand free to deflect or strike as needed. This doesn't force the joint lock, and if the lock is lost you continue chainpunching or flow into whatever is needed to continue to attack the opponent.
So, what I thought was using JJJ with WC/WT concepts BECAME wing chun.
To commit your entire body into a joint lock and force the submission does require more strength than is needed to execute a joint lock. When I wrap my whole body around a guys arm, thus clinging to him while he picks me up off the ground and slams me on my back, neck or head is just not effecient! And it's painful, and to me silly. When I can aquire joint locks in other fashions that are not so harmful and dangerous to my small frame.

No, I don't like BJJ, we all know that, because I see it as
largely and grossly inefficient. It takes too long to get into position for most of those techniques, too much effort, too much energy spent on one movement, too much commitment of the entire body for too long on one set technique.

I cringe to imagine a small woman doing these techniques on a large man on the concrete in the street, with nails, glass, wood, trash, and oil, etc... The road rash and body slames required to fall to the ground and execute these techniques I see as a horrible danger to anyone trying to use this in street or self-defense situations.
Like i've said: can you do these techniques between two parked cars in the parking lot, on a staircase, in a narrow hallway, in a bus isle, INSIDE a parked car, in your bathroom (especially if it's as tiny as mine! lol!) Wing Chun is designed for these situations specifically and these are your battle grounds in the real world, not some octogon, not some cage. If one feels they NEED a "ground game" for the cage, great, use BJJ (I still wouldn't but that's me. It seems specially designed for the ring and does well when you have lots of room to do it) But, think carefully and question if these techniques can be used in a real situation.
Just your preference in training, depending on what your training for. I'm always in a mindset of realistic self-defense and am not interested in sport fighting. But, that is me. And my opinions on practical technique IS heavilly biased due to my critical anyalyzing of technique that I see won't work in these situations.
So, how is BJJ going to help your WC/WT in this light?
I hope this clarifies more of the mindset I am coming from, and why I get so "passionate" about self-defense and BJJ.

[arnisador]

I hope no one is discounting BJJ without having tried going against it...remember, before the UFC, the 'Gracie Challenge' changed a lot of people's minds.

[Si-Je]

I hope no one is discounting BJJ without having tried going against it...remember, before the UFC, the 'Gracie Challenge' changed a lot of people's minds.

I understand why you would recomend this, and I and our students have trained with and against BJJ. The "gracie challenge" is still on and this convinces alot of people that their the top dogs. But, not everyone can afford to travel out to California and put themselves up in a hotel and bebop on over to the school to challenge. So, this challenge doesn't cover all folks who have the skill. And is pretty misleading in it's very nature.
Heck, we sure could use the $10,000 he says he'll offer to a "victor". lol!
But, there's just too much cost involved in coming over there and playing around with it. ;)
Besides, it wouldn't change peoples minds.

[dungeonworks]

I hope no one is discounting BJJ without having tried going against it...remember, before the UFC, the 'Gracie Challenge' changed a lot of people's minds.

Thank you. They've documented footage against several styles in mats, tile floors, rings, cages, MMA with gloves, vale tudo and No-Holds-Barred without gloves, and beaches among others. Most of their footage is agains far larger opponents and they beat them with efficient technique. Been doing it for around 100 years. It is more than any other practitioner can say about and back up their style. That's the reason people wanted to learn it. It is verified, tried, and true. There is a sport side of BJJ and a self defense side.

Now before I say this, let me state that Wing Chun is ridiculously disadvantaged in a sport setting as the rules take away many bread & butter attacks (fingers to eyes and throat, elbows to back of neck)/target areas (throat, eyes, back of neck..ect) and reduce it from a hearty stew to a broth so to speak. BJJ is not and can be sportorized by simply removing striking. That being said, 98% of the Wing Chun fight footage I have seen is them getting killed by Kyokushin, Muay Thai, MMA (a good amount anyways), and the ocasional ridiculous challenge match (not to leave out the almighty clash of the masters, Boztepe vs Chueng)....just YouTube it or use your favorite P2P software and search for them.

[dungeonworks]

I understand why you would recomend this, and I and our students have trained with and against BJJ. The "gracie challenge" is still on and this convinces alot of people that their the top dogs. But, not everyone can afford to travel out to California and put themselves up in a hotel and bebop on over to the school to challenge. So, this challenge doesn't cover all folks who have the skill. And is pretty misleading in it's very nature.
Heck, we sure could use the $10,000 he says he'll offer to a "victor". lol!
But, there's just too much cost involved in coming over there and playing around with it. ;)
Besides, it wouldn't change peoples minds.


Oh my GOD you are REALLY grasping for straws on this! Put it on a credit card. You are going to win anyways right??? Besides, it is open at any Gracie family owned and ran gym from what I understand, not exclusive to the Torrance. CA academy.

[jarrod]

another thing that often gets overlooked is that virtually all martial arts are the product of cross-training, wing chun & jujitsu included. to cross-train isn't to betray your base art, but to allow the natural evolution of martial arts to continue. a martial art should never be "done" because it should always be exposed to new & different approaches. there's nothing anti-traditional about this, it is the way martial arts have always been. two people who fight different ways are going to swap tricks, & each come away with something new to them. so what?

jf

[Yoshiyahu]

Si-Je doesn't seem to have a problem with Sambo or Judo...But she has a problem with BJJ...she dislikes BJJ with a passion...Although you were able to tap guys 200-300lbs...you may have increase in strength from the training...just because some guys weigh more or have more muscle doesn't mean they the same strength as you. I have seen little bitty guys out bench huge heman guys...Sometimes the bigger guys have more bulk than they do overall strenght and stamina...This may be a kung you develop from your practice...each of us differnet...Some of us learn or pick up certain aspects faster than others. My Sidai and I when we started practicing Wing Chun we grew in different areas quicker. I grew first in speed and movement and he grew first in strength and size!

So Each of us is different. It may be your a natural at BJJ and your strength is nourish by practicing due to the way your Chi circurulates.



one of the things i disagree with si-je about is that jujitsu secretly relies on strength. when i started grappling i was 150lbs, & with a little practice i was able to tap guys 200-300lbs. so i know that with proper technique jujitsu can overcome strength. i don't train bjj, & i have my criticisms of it, but i have trained with enough bjj guys that i respect it. virtually every mma champion out there has some training in bjj, even if it's not their primary style. fedor doesn't, but he is excellent at sambo & judo, which is still grappling.

jf

[Yoshiyahu]

Please share what are the basic principals of BJJ?



Firstly, to answer the whole 'BJJ hasn't been doing so well in the cage lately' comment by Sije - When fighters fight in the cage, they come from one end of the cage to the other and meet in the middle, meaning that the striker has the first move (ie unless the BJJ guy runs in and goes for a takedown, he will have to receive shots from the striker)

You will find that most MMA guys use BJJ, just like most MMA guys also use striking. Hence why it is called MMA...

Going back to the original thread, it is not essential that chunners learn BJJ, but it is extremely important that they learn some kind of ground game

In Kamon, although BJJ is encouraged, Master Chan would be just as happy to see his senior students proficient in catch wrestling or sambo etc

You cannot live your wing chun lives with the motto 'I will never go to ground'. In most cases it is extremely difficult for a chunner to get taken down, but think of situations where a person pushes you back over a car bonnet, a table in a pub, or when you trip over or get another person tackling you from behind

If people are so adamant and blind to say they will NEVER get taken down, then I don't really have time for intelligent conversation with them

BJJ is a good match in wing chun because it is more about sticking and trapping your opponent than most grappling styles. It also doesn't worry too much about strength. Obviously it is always better to have a bit of strength, but because BJJ works using leverage and angles, it is a very good fit with Wing Chun

Remember that you really only need the basic principles of BJJ. I am definately no master, but if I get taken down, I know basic positions that will greatly increase my chances of safety. Generally you always want to get back to the position you started from (standing up), so I don't work too much on things like arm bars or locks because they are more for sport

[Flying Crane]

Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu = what? and for what purpose?

CAN they work together as complementary and supportive methodologies? Of course.

MUST you combine them in order to be effective? Of course not.

Either art by itself, if properly trainined and understood, should give you the skills to handle yourself in most problems that the average person is likely to run into on the street.

They do not have equal strengths in a sporting context, however. I believe that BJJ probably has the advantage in that arena. If you want to compete in that arena, you might do well to get acquainted with it.

If you have no interest in a combative sporting context, then you certainly don't need to mix it with your wing chun. But you can, if you choose, and I am sure you would get benefits from doing so.

But I wouldn't automatically discount a serious Wing Chun guy just because he hasn't trained in BJJ, at least not in a self defense situation.

and again, a lot of this depends on the individual, and for what purpose he/she trains.

So mixing them could be good, or it could be crap, or it could mean nothing. And there are good reasons to do it, and there are good reasons to not do it.

[Si-Je]

Check this video out. here's a 'straw' I'm grasping at. lol!
This is my favorite site for realistic street combat.
Should this tiny girl have used BJJ in this elevator against this big guy?
Could she have? Or would it have put her in a truely dangerous position wrestling him in the small space of an elevator?
It takes a bit to get started, about halfway through you get the most awesome beatdown probably ever delivered by a tiny teenager! lol!

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/...(warning).html

[Yoshiyahu]

Too answer Si-Je Question on how BJJ supplements your Wing Chun. I know little about strickly BJJ but I know some MMA schools have an excellent Stamina and conditioning program. Wing Chun does too...But most schools neglect Sprints up grass hills,Running five miles a day,100 pushs extremely fast to build stamina not strength. 100 Leg lifts contious motions. 1000 fast chain punches. Fast front kicks contiously until your legs fall off...etc...also some people alternate the number of techniques starting off at minute progressing up to ten minutes over the course of a month. each day so like for instance some may do extremely fast

Wing Chun Stamina routines alternative method
Push ups (One Minute)
Sit ups (One minute straight)
Sprinting on straight grounds (One Minute intervals) 10x
Sprintin up hills (One Minute intervals) 10x
Running (One miles-five Miles)
Chain Punching (One Minute)
Front & Side Kicks contious(One Minute)
Leg Lifts(One Minute)

An much more...

But Si-Je. These guys train Wing Chun and BJJ more for sport right now...Thats where their passion is, Many want to one day fight in a cage or MMA setting. Also realize that for many Wing Chun is a second art...The actual started learning Wing Chun second.


Your concepts are wounderful...They address real fighting situtations where it is one on one. But when your ring its not the same. They are not really talking Self Defense or Combat. They are not speaking street fighting. They train BJJ to match skills and rules in sports competition. In the ring most of the people are wrestlers. So when you grab them or take them down..They will automatically go to wrestling mode trying to fight for the dominate posistion very few of them are going to strike while wrestling. Because they have a one track mind. Their goal is to wrestle at that point...

So true...No one is going to use BJJ in an alley with broken glass and drug vials in the streets. No one is about try to take someone down on a street covered with used syringes or needles and rocks and nails. Very unpractical. But these guys are taining BJJ for fun. Not really that they see as a long term art the will be able to use when their seventy or eighty years old. Now cross training for them is adding their Wing Chun to thier already obtained BJJ Skills. But WC is the supplemental art so they have some striking in their aresnal. They will not learn WC or Grow in their WC as fast as you have. It depends on the teacher. It is suppose to take three years to get the entire system but it may take them longer maybe ten years...that is okay. Some of them may never ever use their art in a real street sitituation. Many of them will never venture outside the safe zone of their surburbs. The only place where they can get close to combat is to get in the ring...Their is thirst for combat which is not met...

I been to Other WC schools outside my lineage...The basics were excellent...And if you practice those basics they way they do for ten years not many Wrestlers will be able to tackle you down once you have gotten your stance rooted. But that type of power takes 10 to 20 years to develop. I don't train exclusively root so I am not there yet my self. I utilize skill and movement more so than root. Although I use root to strike with. But a WC guy with Six months of experience is not going to be stand in stance an ward off the energy with effort...Unless they practice nothing but Root eight hours a day Six days a week for one year. I still doubt it but its possible. In Aikido we trained techniques to sink our weight so we can not be picked up. But that depends on years and level of practice. It takes years to really develop to work on strong fighter.

So in conclusion Si-Je these guys are interested in the sport of fighting.
Not mere self defense. Many of them have no use for self defense. If they wanted Self Defense they learn Karate...But for sports Tae Kwon Do and MMA are good. Muay thai is also be supplemented with BJJ now and days. But I could be wrong I don't think the Gracies were using Brazialian JuJitsu...Weren't using Greco Wrestling? Is there a difference?





Okay guys, I get hyper and am not clear sometimes. BJJ has been beaten in the ring several times, it is totally possible to defeat a takedown with striking concepts, that's my main point. It is possible to use 100% wing chun to defend against a wrestler/BJJ whatever strickly ground fighting style. It has been done numerous times.

Yes, people have been tapped out.

To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure. (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".

So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.
BUT..

That larger opponent has other limbs, moving, punching, kicking, elbowing limbs to deal with while you concentrate all your time and effort on one joint. See?

I started adapting WT/WC concepts to the JJJ I used to know so well, just to find out it stopped being JJJ technique. WT/WC has joint locks too, but they are done very differently. They are usually done with only one hand or arm on the joint, with no "lock out" on the arm or wrist. This leaves your other hand free to deflect or strike as needed. This doesn't force the joint lock, and if the lock is lost you continue chainpunching or flow into whatever is needed to continue to attack the opponent.
So, what I thought was using JJJ with WC/WT concepts BECAME wing chun.

To commit your entire body into a joint lock and force the submission does require more strength than is needed to execute a joint lock. When I wrap my whole body around a guys arm, thus clinging to him while he picks me up off the ground and slams me on my back, neck or head is just not effecient! And it's painful, and to me silly. When I can aquire joint locks in other fashions that are not so harmful and dangerous to my small frame.

No, I don't like BJJ, we all know that, because I see it as
largely and grossly inefficient. It takes too long to get into position for most of those techniques, too much effort, too much energy spent on one movement, too much commitment of the entire body for too long on one set technique.

I cringe to imagine a small woman doing these techniques on a large man on the concrete in the street, with nails, glass, wood, trash, and oil, etc... The road rash and body slames required to fall to the ground and execute these techniques I see as a horrible danger to anyone trying to use this in street or self-defense situations.

Like i've said: can you do these techniques between two parked cars in the parking lot, on a staircase, in a narrow hallway, in a bus isle, INSIDE a parked car, in your bathroom (especially if it's as tiny as mine! lol!) Wing Chun is designed for these situations specifically and these are your battle grounds in the real world, not some octogon, not some cage. If one feels they NEED a "ground game" for the cage, great, use BJJ (I still wouldn't but that's me. It seems specially designed for the ring and does well when you have lots of room to do it) But, think carefully and question if these techniques can be used in a real situation.

Just your preference in training, depending on what your training for. I'm always in a mindset of realistic self-defense and am not interested in sport fighting. But, that is me. And my opinions on practical technique IS heavilly biased due to my critical anyalyzing of technique that I see won't work in these situations.

So, how is BJJ going to help your WC/WT in this light?
I hope this clarifies more of the mindset I am coming from, and why I get so "passionate" about self-defense and BJJ.

[Si-Je]

Oh my GOD you are REALLY grasping for straws on this! Put it on a credit card. You are going to win anyways right??? Besides, it is open at any Gracie family owned and ran gym from what I understand, not exclusive to the Torrance. CA academy.


LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card! I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
Hubbie would win. :)
I'm too nasty to follow the rules.

[Si-Je]

Too answer Si-Je Question on how BJJ supplements your Wing Chun. I know little about strickly BJJ but I know some MMA schools have an excellent Stamina and conditioning program.

But Si-Je. These guys train Wing Chun and BJJ more for sport right now...Thats where their passion is, Many want to one day fight in a cage or MMA setting. Also realize that for many Wing Chun is a second art...The actual started learning Wing Chun second.

Your concepts are wounderful...They address real fighting situtations where it is one on one. But when your ring its not the same. They are not really talking Self Defense or Combat. They are not speaking street fighting. They train BJJ to match skills and rules in sports competition. In the ring most of the people are wrestlers. So when you grab them or take them down..They will automatically go to wrestling mode trying to fight for the dominate posistion very few of them are going to strike while wrestling. Because they have a one track mind. Their goal is to wrestle at that point...

So true...No one is going to use BJJ in an alley with broken glass and drug vials in the streets. No one is about try to take someone down on a street covered with used syringes or needles and rocks and nails. Very unpractical. But these guys are taining BJJ for fun.

not many Wrestlers will be able to tackle you down once you have gotten your stance rooted. But that type of power takes 10 to 20 years to develop.
But a WC guy with Six months of experience is not going to be stand in stance an ward off the energy with effort...Unless they practice nothing but Root eight hours a day Six days a week for one year. I still doubt it but its possible. In Aikido we trained techniques to sink our weight so we can not be picked up. But that depends on years and level of practice. It takes years to really develop to work on strong fighter.

So in conclusion Si-Je these guys are interested in the sport of fighting.
Not mere self defense. Many of them have no use for self defense.

I understand the sport aspect. But, I've talked to alot of people that believe that BJJ is a great SD and would and do use it in the street. Ack! Their preference.
Train it for sport, that's great for them. I only have a problem with it when it's "sold" as viable self-defense.

As for a WC/WT person defending a grapple at that short time in art. Hubbie has started teaching the anti-grappling at grade 1 because of this. Using the basics of anti-grappling that match what they are leaning standing at that time in art.
i.e. you do basic stance and chain punch.
then you do that on the ground. using basic stance on ground to keep attacker off you when their between your legs.
Teaching to roll off the attacker in a mount position and chain punch to cover face with attack while their in mount.
And teaching to heel kick, or bicycle kick to keep a standing attacker from jumping on top of you when your on the ground on your back. Do this while turning on your back like a turtle if opponent runs around to your side to get "side position". etc...
Teaching to side step/pivot or "sprawl" against a takedown.

Basics standing, basics on the ground. Match for match, apply the same standing as you do on ground.

[dungeonworks]

LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card! I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
Hubbie would win. :)
I'm too nasty to follow the rules.

Pay it off in the "Gracie" period! LOL j/k

Also, which video on your link am I looking at? I see something about a cat cyst, WWE ladder match, and links to girl on girl kissing (which is kind of cool too, but not why I am on a Wing Chun forum! :ultracool )

By the way, I really do appreciate your insight Si-Je. I am just trying to understand it. If we all agreed, things just would not be fun around here and be more like an "SNL Skit". :)

[dungeonworks]

LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card! I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
Hubbie would win. :)
I'm too nasty to follow the rules.

He's Force Recon right? Salutes to him! :ultracool

[jarrod]

i just want to say regarding alleys filled with broken drug vials...lol, where are these places & why the hell would i be there? one of the first rules of self defense should be to avoid dangerous places whenever possible. i'm not a cop or a junkie, so i really don't see myself getting jumped in a urine-soaked alley by a gang of drug fiends.

jf

[arnisador]

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/...(warning).html (http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/...%28warning%29.html)

The site wants to install something if you want to watch videos...

[Si-Je]

eep! sorry. let me try this link. There should be a little box in the middle of the browser.
Labled : Teen attacked in Elevetor WARNING

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/19492/teen-attacked-on-elevator(warning).html

does this one work better? It worked for me.

[Si-Je]

Live in my neighborhood and see how easy it is to avoid such things. We don't have a car, we walk to the grocery store three to five times a week. There's this crap everywhere we walk. On the sidewalk, off the sidewalk, in the street, in the parking lots to the stores.
Big D is nasty.
Big cities are nasty.


i just want to say regarding alleys filled with broken drug vials...lol, where are these places & why the hell would i be there? one of the first rules of self defense should be to avoid dangerous places whenever possible. i'm not a cop or a junkie, so i really don't see myself getting jumped in a urine-soaked alley by a gang of drug fiends.

jf

[arnisador]

eep! sorry. let me try this link. There should be a little box in the middle of the browser.
Labled : Teen attacked in Elevetor WARNING

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/19492/teen-attacked-on-elevator(warning).html (http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/19492/teen-attacked-on-elevator%28warning%29.html)

does this one work better? It worked for me.

Yes, that one works! Is it a real case, or staged? She chased after him--bad idea! If it was real, good for her.

Yes, BJJ techniques would also have been workable there. His initial stiff-arm leads to a Greco-Roman style bearhug from behind, for example, from which he can be tripped forward. When he slides down the levator wall, choke him out! A lighter person might jump guard--less advisable in self-defense than sport--and break the arm. But a typical BJJer would initially have hit him as she did in such a case, I think. As with JJJ, atemi is a fine distraction!

[Si-Je]

This one is why I don't lock my legs behind a stronger guy. They pick you up and slam you on your back, It's too easy to be slammed on your head or neck.
And this is at a tournament

http://www.comegetyousome.com/video/19848/back-broken-during-tournament.html

[jks9199]

LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card! I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
Hubbie would win. :)
I'm too nasty to follow the rules.
You should be able to apply your principles within the rules of a competition. Others manage to... If you can't, either your principles are inadequate, you aren't as skilled as you think... or you're simply not trying to follow the rules.

(And, by the way, most credit cards charge no interest if paid off within the payment period. A little care in planning, and you could have most of 30 days to win the challenge, cash the check and pay the bill off.)

[Si-Je]

Yes, that one works! Is it a real case, or staged? She chased after him--bad idea! If it was real, good for her.

Yes, BJJ techniques would also have been workable there. His initial stiff-arm leads to a Greco-Roman style bearhug from behind, for example, from which he can be tripped forward. When he slides down the levator wall, choke him out! A lighter person might jump guard--less advisable in self-defense than sport--and break the arm. But a typical BJJer would initially have hit him as she did in such a case, I think. As with JJJ, atemi is a fine distraction!

It says that this was taken from an elevator security camera, so I guessing it's as real as it gets. They do alot of videos taken from individuals off cell phone cameras, and security cameras on this site. Most of the clips are NOT edited for bad language or brutality. So you have to be careful who's watching this stuff with you.

And honestly, I don't think she had alot of choice but to follow him. Looks like he set the elevator to open where he wanted it, like the parking garage, and it was the only way out. I wouldn't want him to recupe and charge the elevator again while I was still in it waiting for the doors to close. hey, it could have been her floor too! lol!

Anyways, I think if women followed through like that more visciously men would have to think twice about attacking a woman. If it was pretty much common knowledge that a cornered woman will stomp you down worse than a man it might deter future attacks on women.
Men that attack women know that she'll be overly concerned with getting away and won't fight back much, easy target. And a target with less chance of receiving serious injury.
Personally, if a guy attacks me like that I'll give him a beatdown for all women everywhere.
I love her use of the floor and walls of the elevator to bang his head into, the grab and pull back by the scruff of his neck was absolute beauty! lol! Like she was saying " where do you think YOUR going? get back here so I can't smack you around some more!" lol!

Oh, and no one has anything to say about the BJJ guy that got his back broken in tournament? I guess he should have leg go his legs around the guys waist?

[Si-Je]

Oh, stop with the credit card. We don't have one. Done deal. Must be nice to be folks with credit and money.

As for the Gracie rules:
1. no punching the back of the neck and head (well, don't shoot into my legs trying to slam me painfully to the ground on my back and expose your head like that.)
2. Don't mount me and try to smash my face in totally exposing your groin at my face level where I can easily chain punch it until they scream alto style and get off me.
3. don't clamp your legs around my head in a triangle fashion where I could get my neck broken, and not expect me to bite you in the theigh or the groin to save my neck.
4. don't armbar me with my elbow in the crotch where I can tan sau and shove my arm forward into the groin to save my elbow from being broken or hyper extended.

Those rules are like saying: "no, I've got you in an armbar you can't hit, kick, elbow, poke my eyes, chop the throat, hurt my groin, bite, ear slap, or seriously hurt me in any vitals. Even though I expose all to you.
Now be still while I break your arm and put the video on youtube!" oh and by the way, " BJJ is a realistic self-defense art designed for the mean beaches of Brazil."

Hubbie likes to "play fair" like that, but, I will not. That's not the point I'm trying to make. He's gonna make the point WC/WT can be used in the ring with rules and following the rules, because that's the only way to help people see it's a complete system and a viable true self-defense. The cage. So, he's more likely to play along. He's a devildog, he likes competition and pain. lol!
Not me, I'm a punker and don't let myself get hurt for 'show' or to prove a 'point'. He's the Sifu, let him do it. lol!



You should be able to apply your principles within the rules of a competition. Others manage to... If you can't, either your principles are inadequate, you aren't as skilled as you think... or you're simply not trying to follow the rules.

(And, by the way, most credit cards charge no interest if paid off within the payment period. A little care in planning, and you could have most of 30 days to win the challenge, cash the check and pay the bill off.)

[MJS]

Okay guys, I get hyper and am not clear sometimes. BJJ has been beaten in the ring several times,

Never said that it hadn't been beaten.



it is totally possible to defeat a takedown with striking concepts, that's my main point. It is possible to use 100% wing chun to defend against a wrestler/BJJ whatever strickly ground fighting style. It has been done numerous times.
Yes, people have been tapped out.

Yes, that is true. However, has it ever entered your mind, that the stand up fighters, such as Chuck, have incorporated a grappling defense into their stand up, to make that takedown defense even strgoner? Or are you still assuming that they're using pure standup for that?




To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure. (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".
So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.
BUT..
That larger opponent has other limbs, moving, punching, kicking, elbowing limbs to deal with while you concentrate all your time and effort on one joint. See?

Hmm...your lack of understanding is showing Sije. If you really watch a match, you will see that many BJJ guys will secure a good position first, which really isn't as hard as you make it seem. They play the chess game, thinking a few moves ahead, so while it appears they're going for one thing, they're really setting up what they want and by then, its too late for the other person.




I started adapting WT/WC concepts to the JJJ I used to know so well, just to find out it stopped being JJJ technique. WT/WC has joint locks too, but they are done very differently. They are usually done with only one hand or arm on the joint, with no "lock out" on the arm or wrist. This leaves your other hand free to deflect or strike as needed. This doesn't force the joint lock, and if the lock is lost you continue chainpunching or flow into whatever is needed to continue to attack the opponent.
So, what I thought was using JJJ with WC/WT concepts BECAME wing chun.
To commit your entire body into a joint lock and force the submission does require more strength than is needed to execute a joint lock. When I wrap my whole body around a guys arm, thus clinging to him while he picks me up off the ground and slams me on my back, neck or head is just not effecient! And it's painful, and to me silly. When I can aquire joint locks in other fashions that are not so harmful and dangerous to my small frame.

More lack of understanding showing here. You are under this impression that it takes alot. Watch Rickson or Royce. They're so relaxed, compared to the G&P guys that you see today. That is the real idea of BJJ.


No, I don't like BJJ, we all know that, because I see it as
largely and grossly inefficient. It takes too long to get into position for most of those techniques, too much effort, too much energy spent on one movement, too much commitment of the entire body for too long on one set technique.

Its probably because you don't understand it.


I cringe to imagine a small woman doing these techniques on a large man on the concrete in the street, with nails, glass, wood, trash, and oil, etc... The road rash and body slames required to fall to the ground and execute these techniques I see as a horrible danger to anyone trying to use this in street or self-defense situations.
Like i've said: can you do these techniques between two parked cars in the parking lot, on a staircase, in a narrow hallway, in a bus isle, INSIDE a parked car, in your bathroom (especially if it's as tiny as mine! lol!) Wing Chun is designed for these situations specifically and these are your battle grounds in the real world, not some octogon, not some cage. If one feels they NEED a "ground game" for the cage, great, use BJJ (I still wouldn't but that's me. It seems specially designed for the ring and does well when you have lots of room to do it) But, think carefully and question if these techniques can be used in a real situation.
Just your preference in training, depending on what your training for. I'm always in a mindset of realistic self-defense and am not interested in sport fighting. But, that is me. And my opinions on practical technique IS heavilly biased due to my critical anyalyzing of technique that I see won't work in these situations.
So, how is BJJ going to help your WC/WT in this light?
I hope this clarifies more of the mindset I am coming from, and why I get so "passionate" about self-defense and BJJ.

Nobody said that you had to roll around on the ground. I've said many times that is the last place you want to be, because of the reasons you list, such as mult. attackers, objects on the ground, etc. However, to assume that you will never end up there is a recipe for disaster. BJJ will help you with the initial escape, and getting up properly, so you can continue your stand up defense.

[MJS]

I understand why you would recomend this, and I and our students have trained with and against BJJ. The "gracie challenge" is still on and this convinces alot of people that their the top dogs. But, not everyone can afford to travel out to California and put themselves up in a hotel and bebop on over to the school to challenge. So, this challenge doesn't cover all folks who have the skill. And is pretty misleading in it's very nature.
Heck, we sure could use the $10,000 he says he'll offer to a "victor". lol!
But, there's just too much cost involved in coming over there and playing around with it. ;)
Besides, it wouldn't change peoples minds.

So, going on this, is your hubby only fighting in the state in which you live or will he be traveling? If he is going to travel, then theres no issue with traveling right over to Ca.

[MJS]

LOL! You put it on YOUR credit card! I'm not spending good money to pay horrible interest to pay off making a point to people that still won't listen.
Hubbie would win. :)
I'm too nasty to follow the rules.

So, hubby trains WC, hubby has fought BJJ people in your school....it was that 10yr guy right, hubby is undefeated.

See Sije...its comments like this that you make, and then you wonder why people claim that you say WC is the ultimate, that hubby is the best in the world.

Umm...yeah, ok.

[Si-Je]

So, hubby trains WC, hubby has fought BJJ people in your school....it was that 10yr guy right, hubby is undefeated.

See Sije...its comments like this that you make, and then you wonder why people claim that you say WC is the ultimate, that hubby is the best in the world.

Umm...yeah, ok.

What? I told you he sparred with the 10 year BJJ teacher of BJJ and JKD often. He's fought BJJ elsewhere and for real, but that is taboo. He's used it against kids in the USMC, and has fought and sparred with BJJ many many times. That was an example of a time I saw myself.

And no, we are NOT travelling out of state for him to fight. Again, can NOT afford to travel like that. We are getting him registered to fight in TEXAS with TAMMA one of the largest MMA organizations in the nation. Is this not satisfactory? Do you require we travel to Cali?

And, again, I haven't claimed WC is "ultimate" you guys keep typing that one in FOR ME. lol! I explain why I believe it is effecient and more practical to BJJ, and yes, in some real self defense scenarios, is superior, but the WORD ultimate wasn't from my actual post, unless quoting or referring to one of you stating your assumption from my statements.
I'm strong on WC/WT, big deal. Others are just as bad or confident with BJJ. So what?
Opinions and preferences, and I am intitled to have mine too.

I still see no smart comments on the BJJ practitioner that got his back snapped right in half. Just smart talk about how I don't understand it and that's why I don't want to use it. I don't want to use it because I don't want my back broken, or my body slammed on the hard concrete, or to muscle up a large man by the knees and throw him to the ground as he drags me with him. These things coming to mind do NOT tempt me to join the ranks of BJJ. ;)

[seasoned]

Cut and dry guys, the stand up arts, of kicking punching and strikes, allows that person to better defend against multiple opponents. Takes downs put you at a disadvantage with more then one aggressor, with all that rolling around on the ground. If you are fighting more then one person you had better stay up and moving. I am talking street not cage. If three guys confront you, and you are a stand up fighter I would venture to say you could have at least 2 on the ground in a bad way, real fast. If I am a grappler facing 3 guys, I can only concentrate on one at a time. Just my thoughts. And also by the way I have used the groin kick in the street very successfully. It is the pelvic bone you are striking, with that front kick. Very painful.
The traditional arts cover ground techniques, but it is more on how to deal with them rather then roll with them. A self defense art is something that can be used anywhere, I would hope. What about the LEO we have on board. I know you have all the toys at your disposal, but if it comes down to it, do you want to roll around on the ground with them, along with your firearm? I have been to a lot of DT classes, and a lot are different, do some instructors teach grappling within that context?

[Si-Je]

I worked with a police officer that did get taken to the ground in a crowd on a 4th of July drunken brawl. He was shot with his own firearm because he tried to wrestle them and handcuff them from the ground. Too many people in the crowd, him being down on the ground he had no way to defend himself.
He was a Marine from the Vietnam era, not a wimpy or undertrained man.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well somepeople live in these areas...Others have relatives that live in these places...an sometime we may have jobs that require us to drive to these places or maybe there is girl that really want to get with that lives in that type of hood...or maybe a friend from work lives in projects...you never know why you might end down there in that area...but you must be aware you could be there...

You can't always advoid danger...sometimes the way to find saftey is with in the heart of danger. But if your in an area like that...the last place you want to take your attacker is to ground...chances are your attacker is not trying to go down...So why bring him to the ground unless you land a knock out punch to his face...




i just want to say regarding alleys filled with broken drug vials...lol, where are these places & why the hell would i be there? one of the first rules of self defense should be to avoid dangerous places whenever possible. i'm not a cop or a junkie, so i really don't see myself getting jumped in a urine-soaked alley by a gang of drug fiends.

jf

[Yoshiyahu]

Come on man...Its her husband...Come on If she doesn't think her Hubbie can beat every man on earth that what type of wife should she be....She is a woman who devoted to her husband...she is suppose to believe he is undefeated....


come on man get real...now your throwing low blows....

Doesn't your wife think your the best in the world too?



So, hubby trains WC, hubby has fought BJJ people in your school....it was that 10yr guy right, hubby is undefeated.

See Sije...its comments like this that you make, and then you wonder why people claim that you say WC is the ultimate, that hubby is the best in the world.

Umm...yeah, ok.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well I say it then for you all...


Wing Chun is ultimate Art...no other Art can defend aganist it


With Wing Chun you learn how to punch so hard you can punch through brick walls with out hurting your hand...So when the BJJ guy comes shooting for your legs you punch through your gloves to his skull...He is dead now...with a light force he will be unconscious...


Wing chun has the levitating foot technique that if your are ever attacked by one hundred men you can simple jump on top of buildings then use your light skills to jump from roof to roof to escape....it kinda of looks like your flying up on the roof like in old gung fu movies,,,,


Wing Chun has the piercing kick technique...Not only will it send your foe flying 20 feet in the air but the impact will burst their kidneys


Wing Chun has an iron body technique that can with stand knives, swords,AK-47 bullets, Grenandes and Even Nuclear bombs...When You chi up, not even hirshoshima can kill you..

Wing Chun has the immovable stance technique one time I saw a master in wing Chun save a little girl by planting his feet into the ground so that he could redirect the energy of a bus that was about to hit him. By using the chi from the ground in his stance He simply deflected the bus with Kwun sau and then Tan Sau and then pak Sau...Not even a Train going 70mph hour can move you out your stance


Wing Chun has the 10 feet chi blast...That means from ten feet away I can send my Chi to you and cause you fall out...


Wing Chun is the best style in the world...Blocks as fast as a Cheetah

Oh lets not talk about the Iron palm...I once saw a sifu break 18 layers of solid iron with his palms....not bricks but he broke Iron slabs...that were each one inch thick...


Wing Chun is best Combat system in the world if your think you can beat it your crazy....



But the only way you can do all these things i mention above is that you choose either the green pill or blue pill?

Choose the right pill?


Then fly to mars so you learn the hidden secrets from the martian masters of Wing Chun.....


I hope to see you all there...i got my shuttle ticket already schedule to leave January 20th 2012...

Bon Voyage...


What? I told you he sparred with the 10 year BJJ teacher of BJJ and JKD often. He's fought BJJ elsewhere and for real, but that is taboo. He's used it against kids in the USMC, and has fought and sparred with BJJ many many times. That was an example of a time I saw myself.

And no, we are NOT travelling out of state for him to fight. Again, can NOT afford to travel like that. We are getting him registered to fight in TEXAS with TAMMA one of the largest MMA organizations in the nation. Is this not satisfactory? Do you require we travel to Cali?

And, again, I haven't claimed WC is "ultimate" you guys keep typing that one in FOR ME. lol! I explain why I believe it is effecient and more practical to BJJ, and yes, in some real self defense scenarios, is superior, but the WORD ultimate wasn't from my actual post, unless quoting or referring to one of you stating your assumption from my statements.
I'm strong on WC/WT, big deal. Others are just as bad or confident with BJJ. So what?
Opinions and preferences, and I am intitled to have mine too.

I still see no smart comments on the BJJ practitioner that got his back snapped right in half. Just smart talk about how I don't understand it and that's why I don't want to use it. I don't want to use it because I don't want my back broken, or my body slammed on the hard concrete, or to muscle up a large man by the knees and throw him to the ground as he drags me with him. These things coming to mind do NOT tempt me to join the ranks of BJJ. ;)

[seasoned]

Well I say it then for you all...


Wing Chun is ultimate Art...no other Art can defend aganist it


With Wing Chun you learn how to punch so hard you can punch through brick walls with out hurting your hand...So when the BJJ guy comes shooting for your legs you punch through your gloves to his skull...He is dead now...with a light force he will be unconscious...


Wing chun has the levitating foot technique that if your are ever attacked by one hundred men you can simple jump on top of buildings then use your light skills to jump from roof to roof to escape....it kinda of looks like your flying up on the roof like in old gung fu movies,,,,


Wing Chun has the piercing kick technique...Not only will it send your foe flying 20 feet in the air but the impact will burst their kidneys


Wing Chun has an iron body technique that can with stand knives, swords,AK-47 bullets, Grenandes and Even Nuclear bombs...When You chi up, not even hirshoshima can kill you..

Wing Chun has the immovable stance technique one time I saw a master in wing Chun save a little girl by planting his feet into the ground so that he could redirect the energy of a bus that was about to hit him. By using the chi from the ground in his stance He simply deflected the bus with Kwun sau and then Tan Sau and then pak Sau...Not even a Train going 70mph hour can move you out your stance


Wing Chun has the 10 feet chi blast...That means from ten feet away I can send my Chi to you and cause you fall out...


Wing Chun is the best style in the world...Blocks as fast as a Cheetah

Oh lets not talk about the Iron palm...I once saw a sifu break 18 layers of solid iron with his palms....not bricks but he broke Iron slabs...that were each one inch thick...


Wing Chun is best Combat system in the world if your think you can beat it your crazy....



But the only way you can do all these things i mention above is that you choose either the green pill or blue pill?

Choose the right pill?


Then fly to mars so you learn the hidden secrets from the martian masters of Wing Chun.....


I hope to see you all there...i got my shuttle ticket already schedule to leave January 20th 2012...

Bon Voyage...

I am trying to be somewhat informative where grappling and standup are concerned, and I know from reading your posts, you have a way of eliciting a certain response. This last post has me a little concerned, tell me everything is ok. J

[Si-Je]

You soooo crazy! lol!
I love it! I want the red pill! :)
Time for funny time!

So, "lets do the time warp again!" and "take a step to the left, and a jump to the right! Put your hands on your hips, and everything's alright!"
ROFL!
I'm so on that rocket ship dudes! lol!

By the way, ya'll, I've really enjoyed the discussions and I do apologize for being a butt head at times. This forum has been the great experiement for me. That's why I got on here two years ago in the first place. Better to make mistakes in explaination here and get to riled up online than with students and prospective students. I've learned how folks truely think and feel about wing chun, grappling and fighting in general here.
Unfortunately, people aren't as outspoken about these things in person, (whether to be respectful to us at our 'school', or because they want to be polite, or 'cause hubbie is big and scary looking. lol!)
So there is alot of things I've learned from you all about what about WC/WT turnes people off at a glance, on video, and in class. This way I can teach and explain what their learning better before they get frustrated or disheartened.
And yes, believe it or not, I'm far more diplomatic in person, and do not wish to be hurtful to anyone ever, online or in person. I may despise BJJ but I don't despise the people that take it, I just wish to understand fully why people are so attracted to it, and why they train it. And more importantly, why people are using it to "supplement" their other styles.
Thank you all for your honest responses, and pardon again for getting "riled up" on my part, but this has all been very provocotive conversation and I am a little excitable person. lol! This helps Si-Je be a better big sister, and learn when to cool it down, what verbage is getting through to students, and what is confusing students.

Thanks again, and Happy New Year everyone!!!!

I'll be back to play and talk, but please try not to take too much offence to the things I say. I say mean things sometimes to instigate alternative thought, to put folks on the "defenseive" so they actually think about why and what and the reasons for what they train. Sometimes true analyization and logical critisizm of why we do things comes to fruition better when faced with a little conflict.
Love ya'll all!
And Happy New Year and Holidays again! :)

[Yoshiyahu]

Season what did you mean when you said?: "you have a way of eliciting a certain response."

What is Eliciting?

As for me I am grrrrrrreat. What about you?



I am trying to be somewhat informative where grappling and standup are concerned, and I know from reading your posts, you have a way of eliciting a certain response. This last post has me a little concerned, tell me everything is ok. J

[seasoned]

Season what did you mean when you said?: "you have a way of eliciting a certain response."

What is Eliciting?

As for me I am grrrrrrreat. What about you?

Nothing disrespectful, you have a way of wording certain posts in such a way, to see what kind of response you may get. You had mentioned in another thread, I think, that you did it to generate conversation. The post about going to Mars may be one of those posts. I don’t know if I am great, but I definitely get by. :asian:

[Yoshiyahu]

nO nO SORRY MY FRIEND This post was purely Humor...nothing more just funny if you asked me...I think onlookers will be able to agree with me on that post...


Any art that can do all the following I list would be an unbeatable art...





Nothing disrespectful, you have a way of wording certain posts in such a way, to see what kind of response you may get. You had mentioned in another thread, I think, that you did it to generate conversation. The post about going to Mars may be one of those posts. I don’t know if I am great, but I definitely get by. :asian:

[seasoned]

nO nO SORRY MY FRIEND This post was purely Humor...nothing more just funny if you asked me...I think onlookers will be able to agree with me on that post...


Any art that can do all the following I list would be an unbeatable art...



Unbeatable indeed, and would definitely surpass any of those grappler types. W/C er's have a good sense of humor.

[Yoshiyahu]

Ha Ha...My Friend If i could jump on roof tops and knock people out with my chi from ten feet...I wouldn't be here on computer...I will be in ring in Thaliand trying to get that million dollar gold from the kumate....lol....

But seriously...did I have you going there for a minute like i was serious?

I mean iron body that can with stand nuclear destruction?

wow...

i love to meet that guy...his Iron body is stronger than iron..




Unbeatable indeed, and would definitely surpass any of those grappler types. W/C er's have a good sense of humor.

[jarrod]

Well somepeople live in these areas...Others have relatives that live in these places...an sometime we may have jobs that require us to drive to these places or maybe there is girl that really want to get with that lives in that type of hood...or maybe a friend from work lives in projects...you never know why you might end down there in that area...but you must be aware you could be there...

You can't always advoid danger...sometimes the way to find saftey is with in the heart of danger. But if your in an area like that...the last place you want to take your attacker is to ground...chances are your attacker is not trying to go down...So why bring him to the ground unless you land a knock out punch to his face...

well i do see your point...but nevertheless, i think if i lived somewhere like that part of my "self defense" would consist of saving enough money for a car or to move to a better neighborhood! don't get me wrong, my neighborhood isn't great, but generally feel pretty safe day to day. i guess if i were that worried i'd have gotten my concealed carry license by now.

at any rate, i do enjoy our little discussions over here on the WC board as well, & don't mean any offense to anyone. i think grappling gets a bad wrap sometimes & i just can't let it slide. i train striking arts too for all the reasons mentioned above by others, but grappling arts have their place as well, even for self-defense. & it's where my heart is. there's just no accounting for taste, is there? lol

one thing i admire about grappling is that it gives you the ability to control someone without hurting them. i haven't really been in a life or death hand to hand situation (& i hope i never am), but there have been many times that if i hadn't been able to control somebody, i would have had a full-fledged fight on my hands. i mean it's really nice to know that you can rip out someone's eye's & crush their groin, but i just don't want to do that to my buddy who drank too much, you know? or explain it to the police.

it's basic escalation of force. there are things i'm willing to fight for that i'm not willing to kill or maim for.


jf

[Steve]

So. Basically you're admitting to being a troll? Wow.
You soooo crazy! lol!
I love it! I want the red pill! :)
Time for funny time!

So, "lets do the time warp again!" and "take a step to the left, and a jump to the right! Put your hands on your hips, and everything's alright!"
ROFL!
I'm so on that rocket ship dudes! lol!

By the way, ya'll, I've really enjoyed the discussions and I do apologize for being a butt head at times. This forum has been the great experiement for me. That's why I got on here two years ago in the first place. Better to make mistakes in explaination here and get to riled up online than with students and prospective students. I've learned how folks truely think and feel about wing chun, grappling and fighting in general here.
Unfortunately, people aren't as outspoken about these things in person, (whether to be respectful to us at our 'school', or because they want to be polite, or 'cause hubbie is big and scary looking. lol!)
So there is alot of things I've learned from you all about what about WC/WT turnes people off at a glance, on video, and in class. This way I can teach and explain what their learning better before they get frustrated or disheartened.
And yes, believe it or not, I'm far more diplomatic in person, and do not wish to be hurtful to anyone ever, online or in person. I may despise BJJ but I don't despise the people that take it, I just wish to understand fully why people are so attracted to it, and why they train it. And more importantly, why people are using it to "supplement" their other styles.
Thank you all for your honest responses, and pardon again for getting "riled up" on my part, but this has all been very provocotive conversation and I am a little excitable person. lol! This helps Si-Je be a better big sister, and learn when to cool it down, what verbage is getting through to students, and what is confusing students.

Thanks again, and Happy New Year everyone!!!!

I'll be back to play and talk, but please try not to take too much offence to the things I say. I say mean things sometimes to instigate alternative thought, to put folks on the "defenseive" so they actually think about why and what and the reasons for what they train. Sometimes true analyization and logical critisizm of why we do things comes to fruition better when faced with a little conflict.
Love ya'll all!
And Happy New Year and Holidays again! :)

[seasoned]

Well somepeople live in these areas...Others have relatives that live in these places...an sometime we may have jobs that require us to drive to these places or maybe there is girl that really want to get with that lives in that type of hood...or maybe a friend from work lives in projects...you never know why you might end down there in that area...but you must be aware you could be there...

You can't always advoid danger...sometimes the way to find saftey is with in the heart of danger. But if your in an area like that...the last place you want to take your attacker is to ground...chances are your attacker is not trying to go down...So why bring him to the ground unless you land a knock out punch to his face...

I was thinking more in the line of slamming them to the ground. If I do it right, break fall or tuck the chin will not help. This is where I feel that a well placed strike before the slam will stun him and he may not get up for a while.

[Mystic Wolf]

Just heard a news a news report, and 88 year old woman was attacked by a NAKED 44 year old man who broke into her home and attacked her, rubbing his body up against hers. She yelled "no!"
And grabed and twisted his testicles until he ran out screaming.
You can't teach an 88 year old woman BJJ. But all the "rules" of "combat" go out the window when you have to defend yourself against someone you could'nt "physically" ever defeat.
Enter, Wing Chun. :)

[Si-Je]

So. Basically you're admitting to being a troll? Wow.

Why are you here? Do you have something productive to say? Is this why you went on the women's side and called my video a fake to prove a point?
What IS your point?

I speak my mind, and I'm truthful on here. If that's not appreciated then fine, I don't need to hear crap from you. BJJ man.
I'm trying to really find out why people believe this BJJ crap. Did you see the video of the BJJ guy getting his back broken? no? You didn't bother to look at it or comment.
So, I apologize for possibly offending people while speaking my mind and getting to excited about the discussion and all you have to say is that I'm a troll.
Nice.
This is why I "forget" to be polite or diplomatic. What is the point with being nice with people like you? But, I didn't post that for YOU.
seriously!
I've given many explainations of technique often here, no one can comment on the WT anti-grappling WC defense and theory against grappling without falling back on old addages and cliches and attacking my person and my husband. I find this pitafull.
You don't agree with me, then don't bother with me. you won't change my mind, I won't change yours.
You want to call that video a fake on the women's site, then prove it. I don't care.
I posted that for the women's input, not yours. I'm so tired of men putting their two cents in when it's not asked for! I wanted to know what WOMEN'S thoughts were on this situation, fake or not. Just the idea of a tiny little child defending herself in that fashion. Do they think it's wrong? Over excessive? Impractical? What? At least in theory. But, now that you've posted that it is "probably a fake" then none of them will feel comfortable to respond or give an opinion.
Who's the troll now?
Who's shanghiing who?
Your messing up my experiment, and I don't apprectiate it. I don't want to "fight" with the women like I do the men, the men pick on me 'cause I'm a girl. I'm used to it, and I'll give it back. The women are different. I want to understand what they think and want. Not you. Didn't ask YOU.
I want to know what women think, not men. I KNOW what men think. yawn!
A troll. lol!
If that's what I am then you owe me a toll to pass my bridge! lol!
man, nevermind, it's new years, and I can't let a dude like you ruin my night.
Peace out, troll toll payer!

[Mystic Wolf]

I like to wish everybody a HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[jarrod]

I've given many explainations of technique often here, no one can comment on the WT anti-grappling WC defense and theory against grappling without falling back on old addages and cliches and attacking my person and my husband. I find this pitafull.

for the record, i did critique anti-grappling without use of cliches, & hopefully i didn't attack you or your husband's character. the "grappler" in those videos just didn't look like a good grappler. if he is a judo/jujitsuka, he is either dumbing down his technique or he simply isn't very good.

at any rate, happy new years, all the best,

jf

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea, I feel you...you have a desire to study grappling...like you said its where your heart is...Some of us...or Hearts are on pure WC...alls you have to say is Wing Chun combined with BJJ and thats enough to defend...lol...But I am not offended...Don't take it as if I am. I am just curious. I see the days of Martial Art purity converting to Mixed Art fighting. Which may have its place...In fact in a fight I am going to use what ever works...if its grappling...grabbing groin...shooting for your legs grabbing behind your knees to flip you on your back so crack your head an then stomp your face...Then so be it...it depends on situtation and if I feel I can pull it off...Like if some is stupid enough to try a frontal head lock I may hit them gonads and then do the shoot. But I am not wrestler...As a matter fact there is shoot for the legs so to speak in Bil Jee. But most people don't really catch it. I did when I thought about why on earth would someone bend over an reach between their legs. Lol...if someone is behind you or trying to grab from behind...why not bend over grab that leg an pull if you can...




well i do see your point...but nevertheless, i think if i lived somewhere like that part of my "self defense" would consist of saving enough money for a car or to move to a better neighborhood! don't get me wrong, my neighborhood isn't great, but generally feel pretty safe day to day. i guess if i were that worried i'd have gotten my concealed carry license by now.

at any rate, i do enjoy our little discussions over here on the WC board as well, & don't mean any offense to anyone. i think grappling gets a bad wrap sometimes & i just can't let it slide. i train striking arts too for all the reasons mentioned above by others, but grappling arts have their place as well, even for self-defense. & it's where my heart is. there's just no accounting for taste, is there? lol

one thing i admire about grappling is that it gives you the ability to control someone without hurting them. i haven't really been in a life or death hand to hand situation (& i hope i never am), but there have been many times that if i hadn't been able to control somebody, i would have had a full-fledged fight on my hands. i mean it's really nice to know that you can rip out someone's eye's & crush their groin, but i just don't want to do that to my buddy who drank too much, you know? or explain it to the police.

it's basic escalation of force. there are things i'm willing to fight for that i'm not willing to kill or maim for.


jf

[Yoshiyahu]

Why are you calling people trolls...what does that mean?



So. Basically you're admitting to being a troll? Wow.

[jarrod]

Why are you calling people trolls...what does that mean?

a troll is someone who goes on message boards & intentionally makes people angry or otherwise messes with them.

jf

[Si-Je]

for the record, i did critique anti-grappling without use of cliches, & hopefully i didn't attack you or your husband's character. the "grappler" in those videos just didn't look like a good grappler. if he is a judo/jujitsuka, he is either dumbing down his technique or he simply isn't very good.

at any rate, happy new years, all the best,

jf

I'm not yelling at you, darlin'. lol! just yelling at that mean guy that called me a "troll".
But, a couple of folks here have tried to imply that what I say my huband did he didn't actually do.
I know I'm a girl, and I married the 'sifu' and of course I'm biased.
But, he's a different kind of teacher than what has been the norm. I thought he was awesome before ever there was a thought of dating! lol! that was NEVER my origional thought. That's all him. lol! Anyways...
ask hubbie why he likes Si-Je (man, I'm getting to hate that title. It doesn't seem to fit me. never did, just call me Nikki)
Either way, even if we weren't together, he's the best martial artist I've ever seen in my life, in person.
And I've seen quite a few.
One thing my mom once said. " you don't have to travel the world. If you wait enough, the world will come to you!" lol!
I love that. such a Texan thing to say.
But, she's a homebody, not me so much, I've traveled a bit more than her, but it doesn't matter.
If you wait enough, the world will come to you. That's the Tao, dude. ;p
But, if you don't want to believe me about hubbie, I can understand. Wait for the video! lol!
then, don't give me anymore excuses!
It is what it is. and he is what he is. an awesome marine, fighter, martial arist, and teacher. ya'll should really meet him.
You'd love him, and I'd hate that my mouth might make you guys not like him before you know. I'm uppity because he's sooo cool.
I don't know many people who know all of the wing chun system. from two masters.
So what Emin didn't know all WT when hubbie trained from him, he gained a different understanding from NOT knowing.
And Sifu Jim Fung system taught him all the forms, weapons forms, and mook jong, and CHI. Good combo with the anti-grappling and extra "aggression" of the "blitz" defense of Sifu Emin. Good stuff I tell you! lol!
If you don't believe me, then fine. I don't want to fight. But, attack me, not hubbie.
I'm the **** talker, not him. lol!
he's the real thing.

[jarrod]

i didn't figure you were upset with me, but it's good to clarify. i HATE that you don't respect bjj, but i do enjoy discussing it with you :)

as the late great hunter s. thompson said "all things flow according to the whim of the Great Magnet." how's that for tao?

jf

[Steve]

Why are you here? Do you have something productive to say? Is this why you went on the women's side and called my video a fake to prove a point?
What IS your point?

I speak my mind, and I'm truthful on here. If that's not appreciated then fine, I don't need to hear crap from you. BJJ man.
I'm trying to really find out why people believe this BJJ crap. Did you see the video of the BJJ guy getting his back broken? no? You didn't bother to look at it or comment.
So, I apologize for possibly offending people while speaking my mind and getting to excited about the discussion and all you have to say is that I'm a troll.
Nice.
This is why I "forget" to be polite or diplomatic. What is the point with being nice with people like you? But, I didn't post that for YOU.
seriously!
I've given many explainations of technique often here, no one can comment on the WT anti-grappling WC defense and theory against grappling without falling back on old addages and cliches and attacking my person and my husband. I find this pitafull.
You don't agree with me, then don't bother with me. you won't change my mind, I won't change yours.
You want to call that video a fake on the women's site, then prove it. I don't care.
I posted that for the women's input, not yours. I'm so tired of men putting their two cents in when it's not asked for! I wanted to know what WOMEN'S thoughts were on this situation, fake or not. Just the idea of a tiny little child defending herself in that fashion. Do they think it's wrong? Over excessive? Impractical? What? At least in theory. But, now that you've posted that it is "probably a fake" then none of them will feel comfortable to respond or give an opinion.
Who's the troll now?
Who's shanghiing who?
Your messing up my experiment, and I don't apprectiate it. I don't want to "fight" with the women like I do the men, the men pick on me 'cause I'm a girl. I'm used to it, and I'll give it back. The women are different. I want to understand what they think and want. Not you. Didn't ask YOU.
I want to know what women think, not men. I KNOW what men think. yawn!
A troll. lol!
If that's what I am then you owe me a toll to pass my bridge! lol!
man, nevermind, it's new years, and I can't let a dude like you ruin my night.
Peace out, troll toll payer!
I just read the new messages and seldom pay attention to where they are.

I saw the video you posted and believe it was revealed to be a fake. I'm pretty sure it's the same video. I admitted to not being positive. I plan to give it a look and see if I can find where I saw it. Sorry. Didn't mean to stomp around where not wanted.

As for your being a troll, intentionally yanking peoples' chains in order to cause strife and mischief is the very definition of trolling. That's exactly what you were admitting to. I just thought it was brazen of you to actually come out and say it like you did. You say you're truthful, but came out and said that this was all a big experiment for you.

As for why I'm here, it's to talk about things. Like most of the people here, I would guess. I'm not trying to give you crap. In fact, quite the opposite. I try to avoid commenting on any of your posts at all, largely because you're beyond reasonable discussion. You take everything personally and you always end up blowing up at someone and eventually apologizing for and backtracking on most of what you said.

I do apologize for responding to a post in the women's area. I seriously didn't pay attention to where that was. It shows up in the new messages list just like everyone else's.

As for the rest, I don't regret it at all.

Yoshiyahu: A troll is someone who intentionally causes strife. The term is from the fishing term, basically casting nets to see what fish are caught. Trolling is the online version where people post things that they know are inflammatory in order to cause conflict. I hadn't seen anyone so up front about trolling in a long time. Among other things, saying mean things to put people on the defensive is trolling. Inciting arguments is trolling. Si-je openly admitted to both and more in the post I quoted. I was genuinely surprised and posted so.

I really wish this thread would get back to reasonable discussions about wing chun and BJJ/grappling. Had Si-je not turned it into yet another BJJ hatefest, I'd be happily lurking in the thread instead of posting in it.

[Nabakatsu]

While it is not my matter in the slightest I feel I must comment.
I feel your comment, stevebjj, kind of took things out of their intended meaning and turned them to look a bit more sinister than it in fact is, if you consider what Si-je is doing, to the extent that she is trolling, than it seems she would not be the only guilty party, you write quite seamlessly, it would be difficult to catch such intentions, especially if one were to defend ones-self in a self-righteous shocked and/or upset manner. whether or not you truly mean harm or are just responding not entirely aware of what it is which you cast out, perhaps it would be an interesting exercise to detach yourself mentally and emotionally away from the thread and re-read some of your posts and not defend anything.. just read and see whether or not you can see anything you would consider snide and or unneccessary, merely as an exercise! even to do it when you think I'm a complete idiot would show a mastery of ones self, which I feel certain can correlate to martial arts of any type, respectfully Naba,
Happy new years folks!

[theletch1]

Jeff Letchford

[MJS]

What? I told you he sparred with the 10 year BJJ teacher of BJJ and JKD often. He's fought BJJ elsewhere and for real, but that is taboo. He's used it against kids in the USMC, and has fought and sparred with BJJ many many times. That was an example of a time I saw myself.

Taboo? Oh ok....so you give a little tease but nothing more?? Feel free to PM me. I'd love to hear about this.


And no, we are NOT travelling out of state for him to fight. Again, can NOT afford to travel like that. We are getting him registered to fight in TEXAS with TAMMA one of the largest MMA organizations in the nation. Is this not satisfactory? Do you require we travel to Cali?

Honestly...I really don't care where he fights. What I would like to see though, is some video. You have us all excited about these fights, hopefully they'll actually happen. And hopefully, he'll be fighting someone good.


And, again, I haven't claimed WC is "ultimate" you guys keep typing that one in FOR ME. lol! I explain why I believe it is effecient and more practical to BJJ, and yes, in some real self defense scenarios, is superior, but the WORD ultimate wasn't from my actual post, unless quoting or referring to one of you stating your assumption from my statements.
I'm strong on WC/WT, big deal. Others are just as bad or confident with BJJ. So what?
Opinions and preferences, and I am intitled to have mine too.

OMG, do I really need to explain this to you again? Are you reading your comments? Do you see how they sound? Tell me how this sounds....hubby is a great WC fighter. Hubby, has sparred and won against a 10yr BJJ guy. Hubby has never been taken down. WC is all you really need. The list goes on and on, but you're saying, without actually saying, that WC is the best art out there, its complete, its all you need. If you don't understand how that sounds, I don't know what else to tell you.

I also never said that you had to quit WC and take up BJJ. I simply said for you to look at the GRAPPLING arts, to add to the WC foundation. I dont care if its Judo, BJJ, Sambo or wrestling....they're all grappling arts and they all have something to offer.


I still see no smart comments on the BJJ practitioner that got his back snapped right in half. Just smart talk about how I don't understand it and that's why I don't want to use it. I don't want to use it because I don't want my back broken, or my body slammed on the hard concrete, or to muscle up a large man by the knees and throw him to the ground as he drags me with him. These things coming to mind do NOT tempt me to join the ranks of BJJ. ;)

During all the time that I've been rolling, I've never had my back snapped, nor have I seen anyone else with those injuries. Of course, I have to wonder if the reason why you dont like BJJ, is because deep down you know its a good art, that the chances of you ending up on the ground and losing to a BJJ guy is possible, but you're too proud to admit it. WC, just like ALL arts, has its weak points.

[MJS]

Cut and dry guys, the stand up arts, of kicking punching and strikes, allows that person to better defend against multiple opponents. Takes downs put you at a disadvantage with more then one aggressor, with all that rolling around on the ground. If you are fighting more then one person you had better stay up and moving. I am talking street not cage. If three guys confront you, and you are a stand up fighter I would venture to say you could have at least 2 on the ground in a bad way, real fast. If I am a grappler facing 3 guys, I can only concentrate on one at a time. Just my thoughts. And also by the way I have used the groin kick in the street very successfully. It is the pelvic bone you are striking, with that front kick. Very painful.
The traditional arts cover ground techniques, but it is more on how to deal with them rather then roll with them. A self defense art is something that can be used anywhere, I would hope. What about the LEO we have on board. I know you have all the toys at your disposal, but if it comes down to it, do you want to roll around on the ground with them, along with your firearm? I have been to a lot of DT classes, and a lot are different, do some instructors teach grappling within that context?



I've never advocated rolling on the ground in a real fight, esp. with the chances of more than 1 person. I do advocate the study of how a grappler works, so that the stand up techs. can better adapt.

[MJS]

Come on man...Its her husband...Come on If she doesn't think her Hubbie can beat every man on earth that what type of wife should she be....She is a woman who devoted to her husband...she is suppose to believe he is undefeated....


come on man get real...now your throwing low blows....

Doesn't your wife think your the best in the world too?

LOL, dude are you serious here?? See, the difference is, I don't walk around thinking I'm a badass. I understand that I have weak areas, I understand that every art has a weak spot, I understand that theres always someone bigger and better. I strive to improve those areas.

But, you will not hear me say that I will never be taken down, that I've kicked the ass of everyone I've sparred with. Those are things that others say, not me.

[MJS]

So. Basically you're admitting to being a troll? Wow.

I guess someone forgot to read the forum rules when they joined up.

[MJS]

I'm not yelling at you, darlin'. lol! just yelling at that mean guy that called me a "troll".
But, a couple of folks here have tried to imply that what I say my huband did he didn't actually do.
I know I'm a girl, and I married the 'sifu' and of course I'm biased.
But, he's a different kind of teacher than what has been the norm. I thought he was awesome before ever there was a thought of dating! lol! that was NEVER my origional thought. That's all him. lol! Anyways...
ask hubbie why he likes Si-Je (man, I'm getting to hate that title. It doesn't seem to fit me. never did, just call me Nikki)
Either way, even if we weren't together, he's the best martial artist I've ever seen in my life, in person.
And I've seen quite a few.
One thing my mom once said. " you don't have to travel the world. If you wait enough, the world will come to you!" lol!
I love that. such a Texan thing to say.
But, she's a homebody, not me so much, I've traveled a bit more than her, but it doesn't matter.
If you wait enough, the world will come to you. That's the Tao, dude. ;p
But, if you don't want to believe me about hubbie, I can understand. Wait for the video! lol!
then, don't give me anymore excuses!
It is what it is. and he is what he is. an awesome marine, fighter, martial arist, and teacher. ya'll should really meet him.
You'd love him, and I'd hate that my mouth might make you guys not like him before you know. I'm uppity because he's sooo cool.
I don't know many people who know all of the wing chun system. from two masters.
So what Emin didn't know all WT when hubbie trained from him, he gained a different understanding from NOT knowing.
And Sifu Jim Fung system taught him all the forms, weapons forms, and mook jong, and CHI. Good combo with the anti-grappling and extra "aggression" of the "blitz" defense of Sifu Emin. Good stuff I tell you! lol!
If you don't believe me, then fine. I don't want to fight. But, attack me, not hubbie.
I'm the sh*1 talker, not him. lol!
he's the real thing.

Biased?? Thats an understatement! LOL! LOL! See, all I'm simply trying to do is get you to see what else is out there. Its clear that you dont want to, but like I said, its not good to be so blinded. Open your eyes for a moment, and look at how other arts deal with things. Like I said, NO art has all the answers. Not TKD, Ninjutsu, Kenpo, and not WC.

[MJS]

Why are you here? Do you have something productive to say? Is this why you went on the women's side and called my video a fake to prove a point?
What IS your point?

I speak my mind, and I'm truthful on here. If that's not appreciated then fine, I don't need to hear crap from you. BJJ man.
I'm trying to really find out why people believe this BJJ crap. Did you see the video of the BJJ guy getting his back broken? no? You didn't bother to look at it or comment.
So, I apologize for possibly offending people while speaking my mind and getting to excited about the discussion and all you have to say is that I'm a troll.
Nice.
This is why I "forget" to be polite or diplomatic. What is the point with being nice with people like you? But, I didn't post that for YOU.
seriously!
I've given many explainations of technique often here, no one can comment on the WT anti-grappling WC defense and theory against grappling without falling back on old addages and cliches and attacking my person and my husband. I find this pitafull.
You don't agree with me, then don't bother with me. you won't change my mind, I won't change yours.
You want to call that video a fake on the women's site, then prove it. I don't care.
I posted that for the women's input, not yours. I'm so tired of men putting their two cents in when it's not asked for! I wanted to know what WOMEN'S thoughts were on this situation, fake or not. Just the idea of a tiny little child defending herself in that fashion. Do they think it's wrong? Over excessive? Impractical? What? At least in theory. But, now that you've posted that it is "probably a fake" then none of them will feel comfortable to respond or give an opinion.
Who's the troll now?
Who's shanghiing who?
Your messing up my experiment, and I don't apprectiate it. I don't want to "fight" with the women like I do the men, the men pick on me 'cause I'm a girl. I'm used to it, and I'll give it back. The women are different. I want to understand what they think and want. Not you. Didn't ask YOU.
I want to know what women think, not men. I KNOW what men think. yawn!
A troll. lol!
If that's what I am then you owe me a toll to pass my bridge! lol!
man, nevermind, it's new years, and I can't let a dude like you ruin my night.
Peace out, troll toll payer!

Oh and sije...I think it may be a good idea for you to refresh yourself on the forums rules. Trolling is a big no-no here. Messing up your experiment?? Hmmmmm

[seasoned]

I've never advocated rolling on the ground in a real fight, esp. with the chances of more than 1 person. I do advocate the study of how a grappler works, so that the stand up techs. can better adapt.



My post is only a reflection of my feeling toward SD. Everyone will base these reflections on their past training, and what in the past, has worked for them. As I post, I only look at things, as I would react, and in no way try to demean anyone else. It only takes one good executed technique, what ever it is, to stop an attack. Sometimes while typing, and reading these posts, we all have a tendency to focus the content of that post upon ourselves, and the way we train. As long as we keep it civil, and within the site rules, I feel it is an excellent platform to learn, and grow from. Anyone that teaches any martial arts should first have confidence in their art, and it’s ability to defeat someone in battle. This is what teaching is all about. But, as we teach we should make it clear that we should not underestimate anyone. Everyone has the potential to hurt anyone regardless of their rank, belt, or mastery, in any art.

[Si-Je]

MJS you seem to be very agitated, this is why I apologized for coming off so strong and hard. But, sense my apology is not being accepted I will just have to continue and try to be more diplomatic. Although with this very topic that is very hard for me and I'll tell you why.
This is a topic started to promote the idea that Wing Chun needs BJJ and that it would help a Wing Chun practitioner.
I find this horribly false, and that it infringes on my art. To say that a Wing Chun practitioner needs another art to make it well balanced to me is insulting to my art. Especially BJJ of all styles.
I don't like BJJ because it is not a good art. This is my opinion. That it is not a good art for one that trains MA with the goal of realistic self defense mainly Wing Chun.
I feel that BJJ would lessen and diminish the art of Wing Chun, keeping people from continuing to further their understanding and training in the advanced concepts and techniques of Wing Chun. I.e. - instead of learning to kick and hit an opponent from a "grappling" distance, people would resort to BJJ. Thus, losing that range of WT/WC possibly forever. This does anger me, and I don't want people to waterdown their WC/WT to suit students that just don't want to fully train the art.

As for my husband and his experiences. I've shared some of them here to help support and give examples to what I've been saying. And yes, he's the best Wing Chun practitioner I've ever met, my teacher, my friend, and my husband. If you have a problem with that, then that has nothing to do with me. That's all you.

He is training for cage fights, this takes time and we're not going to rush his training to prove anything to you. This costs money that we have to plan, save, and be careful when we spend it, and we're not going to put our family through finiancial hardship just to speed things up for you or anyone.
When his conditioning is up, when his training is done, when we have the money to register him, and when we get a fight scheduled (a real one, from a real promoter that isn't going to jerk us around) then you shall have your beloved video.

Again, I'm not in a rush because I know it won't matter to the nay sayers. You'll all have the excuses you need, ex. he didn't fight anyone any GOOD, the guy he happened to get on a fight card with wasn't actually a Gracie BJJ guy, hubbie's too big and strong for the guy in the cage against, whatever. I'm sure they'll be more I can't even think of. But, you'll have you video.

I'm sorry if I thought we had that last fight, but it's out of my control if the promoter is a scumbag. The only thing we can do is move on and find someone else. I don't know alot about this industry and have had a bit of a hard time finding out the information I needed for our area, hey, I'm new to this.

But, we're NOT new to WT/WC and we're NOT new to defending against BJJ.
So, again, I find that I may have come off strong again, but am finding that maybe I'm just strong in my conviction of the value of my art. So be it.

[Si-Je]

Oh and sije...I think it may be a good idea for you to refresh yourself on the forums rules. Trolling is a big no-no here. Messing up your experiment?? Hmmmmm

Trolling is not my intention. Speaking honestly and being forthright about my true thoughs on these threads is. If people cannot handle being disagreed with is that 'trolling'?
Sometimes you cannot be as diplomatic as you'd like when discussing topics such as this. That doesn't mean I'm wanting to be hurtful and rude to people. But, many comments made directed exactly at me and my husband have not been made with diplomacy either. So, basically, your saying that others can trash my ideas, statements, misquote me, and make fun of my art, husband and self and I'm not allowed to make a comment or stand up for myself and my art?
I see.
It's okay for others to make fun of Wing Chun, and talk down about it and it's teachers, it's practicality and such but it's not okay for me to disagree or dispute?
I do think alot of people need somone to stop being so meek and tiptoing around these issues and be real to change their thinking or give them another way to percieve things.
It is not my intention to "troll". In my opinion I see other "trolls" than myself, but have chosen to let it slide.

[Steve]

Whether the Wing Chun practitioner cross trains in BJJ, or the WC practitioner adapts his/her training to address the threat that BJJ poses, BJJ has made the art and the artist better.

I'm not sure why, si-je, you have such a chip on your shoulder for BJJ or for those who train and enjoy it. You do, though, so there it is. Getting away from whether or not BJJ is effective, or whether or not anti-grappling works, can you at least admit that BJJ has changed WC? The very fact that anti-grappling has been developed specifically to address the threat that lutadors and other grapplers pose is a testament to the effectiveness of BJJ and other styles of grappling.

So, addressing the original post, grappling and the threat of being taken to the ground must be tackled by the practitioner (haha... tackled... get it?). If we can agree on that, then it's a matter of discussing what's the best approach. Anti-grappling or actually studying a grappling art.

I personally believe that the best way to counter a technique is to learn the technique. Anti-grappling, IMO, is a misnomer. It's just grappling. To counter grappling, one must learn to grapple.

As for what works and what doesn't, my opinion is that it depends upon how one trains. If you train BJJ in a vacuum, never spar or pressure test the techniques, and never move past drills, BJJ would be functionally inneffective. It's not the art. The techniques are sound in BJJ, but only if they're trained effectively. My opinion is that other arts are the same. If you train WC in a vacuum, never pressure test the "anti-grappling" against proficient, competent grapplers, than the techniques have little chance of success. Conversely, if the techniques are pressure tested and trained well, chances of success go up.

In conclusion, I personally feel that your clear bias for WC over other arts and clear bias against BJJ as inferior to all other arts muddies the waters. Whether or not you admit it, BJJ has changed WC. As I said before, the very fact that "anti-grappling" exists demonstrates the truth of this.

Edit to add: I have never, and never intend to, mock or make fun of anyone's martial art. I have nothing against WC/WT or any other style as a whole. I get very, very tired of interesting threads devolving into an anti-bjj/mma bickerfest. And trolling isn't disagreeing. There is a big difference.

[Si-Je]

I don't like BJJ because it is not a good art. This is my opinion. That it is not a good art for one that trains MA with the goal of realistic self defense mainly Wing Chun.
I feel that BJJ would lessen and diminish the art of Wing Chun, keeping people from continuing to further their understanding and training in the advanced concepts and techniques of Wing Chun. I.e. - instead of learning to kick and hit an opponent from a "grappling" distance, people would resort to BJJ. Thus, losing that range of WT/WC possibly forever.



What arrogance SteveBJJ. To state that BJJ is the only wrestling art in existance and that it is because of BJJ that anti-grappling was created. There are far better wresting styles out there than BJJ, that have been tested longer in combat, and over much longer periods of time. Wrestling has been around since the beginning of time, are you going to give BJJ credit for the MA styles of thousands of years ago?
This is why I don't like BJJ and some of it's practicioners. The arrogance and misguided view of the very history of martial arts is astounding! lol!
I saw an interview of a Gracie teacher on t.v. a couple of years ago bragging to the camera and his student's that BJJ was the first martial art invented on Earth, that all martial arts stems from it. I was FLOOORED!
And people believed this without question.
I'm just asking you to question, to think outside of the box. You BJJ guys spout the same jargon and speak word for word verbatum the same arguments like your pod people and your minds are not your own. No matter who I talk to or hear talking about BJJ ya'll say the very same statements like you memorized them in class or something. ???? I just don't get that mentality.
Someone wants to talk to you. ;)

[Mystic Wolf]

I have studied other arts and none come to compare to WC/WT, but then again to each there own. One thing I have learned from where I live and being a Marine, it is not the style you fight with but the will to survive. When I fight, I do not fight to win, I fight to hurt. One way or another, I am going take down the person who threatens me or my family and therefore they will think twice before messing with me again.

So whether it is BJJ, Karate, Street Fighting, or Wing Chun, it is up to the individuale and how much heart they have to survive in a confritation. A peron can be skilled in an art but still have no heart or courage to face there adversary.

When it comes down to it, I will gouge your eyes, twist your nuts, bite your ears ect..., it is all about survival.

[Si-Je]

Okay, I'll chill. You guys want to add BJJ to your "stand up game" and Wing Chun all the power too you.
I still feel that many would lose out on the knowledge of WT/WC techniques used in that range. This is a range I am just now really getting a feel for in training WC/WT, so my knowledge of what to do using Wing Chun in grappling range may be a bit limited for some grapplers to understand what I'm trying to say.
I can do it, but I'm not at the level to where I can explain it very well at all. I've used simple grade 1 and 2 techniques to stop a grapplers takedown or shoot in attempts.
And utilization of chi sau on the ground with arms and legs to use against a grappler I've just started to get into fully.
But, the biggest misconception I see online here and elsewhere is the assumption that Anti-grappling techniques are just re-hashed grappling. This truely is not so. I thought that too at first, but the entire motivation and action of anti-grappling is that you DON'T grab the opponent, wrestle them, or grapple back. If they grab you you do not grab them back. Very similar to the WT/WC standing escapes from being grabbed when standing. You still apply WC concepts on the ground and in a clinch as you would standing.
Again, this is something I understand how to utilize, train, and spar with, but I'm not fully knowledgable to describe it in text to do it much justice.
That's the whole reason for being a Si-Je, this is when I learn how to explain the art backwards and forwards. This takes years, and is precursor to learning how to be a teacher of the art. I could drop the Si-Je and stop teaching completely and just continue to focus only on learning and refining my skill in WT/WC and be the same martial artist for it. But, I would no longer be in "training" to become a teacher of the art. Not everyone is a good teacher, and I may be finding out that teaching is not for me, or that I'm not good enough to explain WC/WT concepts to students where they understand the art correctly and don't feel that they have to cross train to be better suited to defend themselves.
If I can't give my student's confidence in the art, then I have no business teaching it. Plain and Simple.
That's probably why I get so riled up here sometimes. I want to be a good teacher, I love to teach WC/WT, but if I can't make these concepts clear to people then it would be best to stand back and let Hubbie find another assistant teacher. (He should have one in another 2-3 years). This is something I've been thinking about alot these past few months, mainly based on the fact that so many who train WC/WT here cannot understand or don't like what I'm saying. I'm not suited to teach.

[Steve]

Sigh. Okay. I specifically said "and other styles of grappling.". I take nothing away from judo, catch wrestling, sambo or any other grappling art.

In the first few sentences, I'm specifically addressing the place grappling had in the consciousness if MA practitioners before and after UFC 1. There is also the very real and undeniable impact BJJ has had on the popularity of MA in general and grappling specifically. That's not arrogance. In fact I take no personal credit or pride for any of it. It's not my art, simply the one in which I train.

If you choose to ignore the impact BJJ has had in recent history, since '93 in the world then it's you who isn't seeing things with an open eye.
What arrogance SteveBJJ. To state that BJJ is the only wrestling art in existance and that it is because of BJJ that anti-grappling was created. There are far better wresting styles out there than BJJ, that have been tested longer in combat, and over much longer periods of time. Wrestling has been around since the beginning of time, are you going to give BJJ credit for the MA styles of thousands of years ago?
This is why I don't like BJJ and some of it's practicioners. The arrogance and misguided view of the very history of martial arts is astounding! lol!
I saw an interview of a Gracie teacher on t.v. a couple of years ago bragging to the camera and his student's that BJJ was the first martial art invented on Earth, that all martial arts stems from it. I was FLOOORED!
And people believed this without question.
I'm just asking you to question, to think outside of the box. You BJJ guys spout the same jargon and speak word for word verbatum the same arguments like your pod people and your minds are not your own. No matter who I talk to or hear talking about BJJ ya'll say the very same statements like you memorized them in class or something. ???? I just don't get that mentality.
Someone wants to talk to you. ;)

[Brian R. VanCise]

Si-Je really the vast majority of people who practice BJJ are not arrogant anymore so than in any other system. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif SteveBJJ is making some rather good points as no one can doubt that the UFC and BJJ have changed how practitioners of martial systems are studying.

[Si-Je]

Sigh. Okay. I specifically said "and other styles of grappling.". I take nothing away from judo, catch wrestling, sambo or any other grappling art.

In the first few sentences, I'm specifically addressing the place grappling had in the consciousness if MA practitioners before and after UFC 1. There is also the very real and undeniable impact BJJ has had on the popularity of MA in general and grappling specifically. That's not arrogance. In fact I take no personal credit or pride for any of it. It's not my art, simply the one in which I train.

If you choose to ignore the impact BJJ has had in recent history, since '93 in the world then it's you who isn't seeing things with an open eye.

That's fine do what you want. So tell me how Wing Chun concepts can be applied to BJJ? Why is it so "easy" to mesh the two arts?

[The Last Legionary]

WC doesn't need BJJ anymore than BJJ needs WC. Or FMA. Or JMA. Or MSMD. Or McD.

WC is what it is, and it's not what it's not.

It's not "The Best". It's not "The One". It's not "The Right Thing".
Unless it is, in which case, there you are baby! Whoooo!
:matrix:

Though I think there's more cuddling in BJJ than WC, and I find watching WC is kinda like watching paint dry, but not quite as exciting.

:dramaqueen:

As to "Hubbie", let him talk for himself, unless it's too difficult for him to find the registration option, or if we are all too far below such an exalted master of the arts.
:moon:

One can post here without being an ass hole. Some however aren't capable of it.
RTFM

Like me. I rather enjoy pointing at stupid ****ers and laughing.

Like I am right now.

I wonder who I'm pointing at?
:2xbird:

Now, if you want "Womens Only", there is a "Womens Only" section, that no "Men" are allowed in. Ask one of the "Ladies Locker Room" Guardians like Shesulsa about it. I have no idea what's required as they asked me for proof of gender and when I showed them, they said it wasn't enough.

It was a cold day, damn it!

:waah:

[Si-Je]

WC doesn't need BJJ anymore than BJJ needs WC. Or FMA. Or JMA. Or MSMD. Or McD.

WC is what it is, and it's not what it's not.

It's not "The Best". It's not "The One". It's not "The Right Thing".
Unless it is, in which case, there you are baby! Whoooo!
:matrix:

Though I think there's more cuddling in BJJ than WC, and I find watching WC is kinda like watching paint dry, but not quite as exciting.

:dramaqueen:

As to "Hubbie", let him talk for himself, unless it's too difficult for him to find the registration option, or if we are all too far below such an exalted master of the arts.
:moon:

One can post here without being an ass hole. Some however aren't capable of it.
RTFM

Like me. I rather enjoy pointing at stupid ****ers and laughing.

Like I am right now.

I wonder who I'm pointing at?
:2xbird:

Now, if you want "Womens Only", there is a "Womens Only" section, that no "Men" are allowed in. Ask one of the "Ladies Locker Room" Guardians like Shesulsa about it. I have no idea what's required as they asked me for proof of gender and when I showed them, they said it wasn't enough.

It was a cold day, damn it!

:waah:

All I wanted was to hear a female point of view, not discuss whether a video was real or not or have the thread totally derailed arguing over who can post, that was not my intention. I never said men weren't "allowed" in, I simply asked for women to tell me what they thought.
But, whatever, the thread was hijacked, it's done. Take it off. I don't care what the ladies think about self-defense anymore, I'm totally discouraged from ever trying to bring it up again. From what I've read so far it's not really very impressive. Get over it, it's over. You won't hear anything about self defense from me again. Ya'll train what you want.

As for you, I have no interest in your statements or your cocky, rude attitude, and find your post akin to watching paint dry. lol!
You think I'm an ass hole, fine, that's your right to your own opinion. I'll keep the right to have my opinion too, and that stands on this topic several times throughout this board.
Teachers want to supplement WC with BJJ they don't need to be teaching WC, or anyother art for that matter. If you don't believe in the art your teaching, I don't see the point in teaching it other than to make a buck.
If you want to teach multiple arts, then teach MMA and stop calling it WC. Simple as that. That's how I feel about it, that's what I think about it, that's my opinion about it.

[The Last Legionary]

Ow. I pissed off the FemaNazi. Oooh. I'm a baad boy!
:bangahead:

Honestly chickiedee, your attitude in your postings is pretty "cult fanatic", and it's quite obvious what flavor your Kool Aid is.

:drink2tha

Here's some friendly advice.

If you want friendly replies, make friendly posts.
Use the IGNORE Feature to weed out those who give you a case of the vapors. You know, like me.
If you want a woman's perspective, there's a woman-only area. Post elsewhere, you'll get Male Polution. Like now.
For the record, I don't cuddle and I don't wax on or wax off. I shoot things from long range:snipe: Chi Sao and SLT give me gas. I think my Chi is bad. I blame Kim. :lfao:

But rather than butting heads like you are, maybe you want to report things to this sites staff. See, it's their job to keep things on track and keep things from going :flame:


As to the rest well, :sadsong:

[Mystic Wolf]

WC doesn't need BJJ anymore than BJJ needs WC. Or FMA. Or JMA. Or MSMD. Or McD.

WC is what it is, and it's not what it's not.

It's not "The Best". It's not "The One". It's not "The Right Thing".
Unless it is, in which case, there you are baby! Whoooo!
:matrix:

Though I think there's more cuddling in BJJ than WC, and I find watching WC is kinda like watching paint dry, but not quite as exciting.

:dramaqueen:

As to "Hubbie", let him talk for himself, unless it's too difficult for him to find the registration option, or if we are all too far below such an exalted master of the arts.
:moon:

One can post here without being an ass hole. Some however aren't capable of it.
RTFM

Like me. I rather enjoy pointing at stupid ****ers and laughing.

Like I am right now.

I wonder who I'm pointing at?
:2xbird:

Now, if you want "Womens Only", there is a "Womens Only" section, that no "Men" are allowed in. Ask one of the "Ladies Locker Room" Guardians like Shesulsa about it. I have no idea what's required as they asked me for proof of gender and when I showed them, they said it wasn't enough.

It was a cold day, damn it!

:waah:


BJJ was designed for todays society, the fast food McDonalds society. People don't have the attention span or the patience to learn an art all the way through. As for me, I've been studying MA since the age of 11, I have earned black belt in several arts. And been practicing Wing Chun for over 13 years. I find that Wing Chun is more effective than the other arts I've studied. But, to learn Wing Chun's complete effectiveness, whether sitting, standing, or on the ground it does take years to learn.
And in today's society, people want everything NOW and BJJ is easy to learn.

We can aurgue all day long about which art is better, but it comes down to the individual. Who has the most heart and is willing to do what it takes.

To me BJJ is like watching paint dry and WC is like planting a field of knowledge.

WC is more than learning how to fight, it is about learning to better one's self in mind, body, and spirit.

And I am Si-JE's Hubbie.

[Steve]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThnbP-rkP90

The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.

[/URL]
I'm pretty confident that the uke isn't a BJJ guy. I didn't recognize any of that as sound BJJ technique for passing guard. I'd be willing to guess that he's not well trained in sambo either, as Emin exposes his ankles and there's no attempt to work knee or ankle submissions.

The first part of that video was essentially open guard. Emin is working open guard against someone trying to dive around his legs. Open guard is simply a label for the position. Emin's legs are in between himself and the opponent. A BJJ guy wouldn't pass guard without controlling the ankles or if grips were available, using pants to control the knees. Slapping and swatting the legs in an attempt to bull rush isn't a controlled guard pass.

Here's one version of an open guard pass. JJ Machado does two things that I think are important and relevant to this discussion. He controls the opponent's legs and he maintains strong base throughout the pass. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kft4mHElVLs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uynAfOSiqmg)

The difference between the above technique and the attempts to pass guard by the uke in Emin's video is significant. If I can't control the legs, I'm not going to get around them. What I would never do, however, is surrender my base so easily by attempting to dive through my opponent's legs. Slapping his foot doesn't count.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtchJFlXeRo&feature=related

The above video demonstrates control of the knees. Where in the first video, JJ Machado controls first the ankles, in the second, because there are grips available, he effectively pins the legs down to control them in order to move around them.

I would invite anyone to do a search on the internet or any instructional anywhere for open guard pass in BJJ. I would be very surprised if you find one that doesn't involve first controlling the opponent's legs.

What's interesting to me is that Emin's demonstrations have more in common with BJJ than the "grappler" uking for him. He uses all of his limbs, until he is in control he keeps his legs in between himself and his opponent, and he works first for positional dominance. Position before submission. The chain punching is all WC, but the grappling he does before that is just grappling.

As I said elsewhere, I think the keys to success with that grappling are in how it's trained. I am not saying that the techniques demonstrated by Emin wouldn't work. What I am saying is that it's hard to tell from the video because I don't know how the average WC guy trains the techniques, and I haven't seen them demonstrated against sound grappling.

[Steve]

That's fine do what you want. So tell me how Wing Chun concepts can be applied to BJJ? Why is it so "easy" to mesh the two arts?LOL. I don't train WC. I was interested in reading from others how, or even whether or not, they would mesh. I don't see why they wouldn't, though. I mentioned in my last post how it seemed that Emin's demonstration exhibited more solid BJJ fundamentals than his "grappler" uke.

[Mystic Wolf]

I'm pretty confident that the uke isn't a BJJ guy. I didn't recognize any of that as sound BJJ technique for passing guard. I'd be willing to guess that he's not well trained in sambo either, as Emin exposes his ankles and there's no attempt to work knee or ankle submissions.

The first part of that video was essentially open guard. Emin is working open guard against someone trying to dive around his legs. Open guard is simply a label for the position. Emin's legs are in between himself and the opponent. A BJJ guy wouldn't pass guard without controlling the ankles or if grips were available, using pants to control the knees. Slapping and swatting the legs in an attempt to bull rush isn't a controlled guard pass.

Here's one version of an open guard pass. JJ Machado does two things that I think are important and relevant to this discussion. He controls the opponent's legs and he maintains strong base throughout the pass. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kft4mHElVLs

The difference between the above technique and the attempts to pass guard by the uke in Emin's video is significant. If I can't control the legs, I'm not going to get around them. What I would never do, however, is surrender my base so easily by attempting to dive through my opponent's legs. Slapping his foot doesn't count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtchJFlXeRo&feature=related

The above video demonstrates control of the knees. Where in the first video, JJ Machado controls first the ankles, in the second, because there are grips available, he effectively pins the legs down to control them in order to move around them.

I would invite anyone to do a search on the internet or any instructional anywhere for open guard pass in BJJ. I would be very surprised if you find one that doesn't involve first controlling the opponent's legs.

What's interesting to me is that Emin's demonstrations have more in common with BJJ than the "grappler" uking for him. He uses all of his limbs, until he is in control he keeps his legs in between himself and his opponent, and he works first for positional dominance. Position before submission. The chain punching is all WC, but the grappling he does before that is just grappling.

As I said elsewhere, I think the keys to success with that grappling are in how it's trained. I am not saying that the techniques demonstrated by Emin wouldn't work. What I am saying is that it's hard to tell from the video because I don't know how the average WC guy trains the techniques, and I haven't seen them demonstrated against sound grappling.

To understand how to use the legs while on your back in WT, first you must have an understanding of Chi Sau and what spring energy is. With out these understanding, you will have no idea what he is talking about.

[Steve]

BJJ was designed for todays society, the fast food McDonalds society. People don't have the attention span or the patience to learn an art all the way through. As for me, I've been studying MA since the age of 11, I have earned black belt in several arts. And been practicing Wing Chun for over 13 years. I find that Wing Chun is more effective than the other arts I've studied. But, to learn Wing Chun's complete effectiveness, whether sitting, standing, or on the ground it does take years to learn.
And in today's society, people want everything NOW and BJJ is easy to learn.

We can aurgue all day long about which art is better, but it comes down to the individual. Who has the most heart and is willing to do what it takes.

To me BJJ is like watching paint dry and WC is like planting a field of knowledge.

WC is more than learning how to fight, it is about learning to better one's self in mind, body, and spirit.

And I am Si-JE's Hubbie.Welcome, Si-Je's hubbie! :) The only thing I can really disagree with in this post is that somehow BJJ is easy to learn. Considering that it takes on average 10 years to acheive black belt, it's up there among the more difficult. If it were easy to learn, there'd be a lot less bad BJJ out there being taught in McDojos trying to jump on the MMA gravy train.

[Steve]

To understand how to use the legs while on your back in WT, first you must have an understanding of Chi Sau and what spring energy is. With out these understanding, you will have no idea what he is talking about.
That may very well be true. Sometimes we don't know what we don't know. Right? :)

But it sure looks like basic open guard technique and fundamental positional control. I frequently work a guard much like that, although I would try if possible to control my opponent's arms and avoid staying so flat.

Edit: Just wanted to add, the post of mine that you responded to was less about Emin's technique than about his uke. To understand how his techniques might work, I would like to see them demonstrated counter fundamentally sound grappling technique, such as I provided examples of in my post.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Welcome, Si-Je's hubbie! :) The only thing I can really disagree with in this post is that somehow BJJ is easy to learn. Considering that it takes on average 10 years to acheive black belt, it's up there among the more difficult. If it were easy to learn, there'd be a lot less bad BJJ out there being taught in McDojos trying to jump on the MMA gravy train.

Definitely in agreement here stevebjj.

BJJ is very difficult as is any really effective grappling system. To many little details are missed by not paying attention to the very fine points. That is what makes one grappling practitioner good and someone else just average at best. Unfortunately people are rushing in and missing a lot of those details,

[theletch1]

Attention all users!!!
This is the second warning in this thread to keep the conversation polite and respectful. This is the last warning which will be placed in this thread before it gets locked. I suggest that each and every person posting to this thread re-acquaint themselves with the general posting rules for the forum. If you are encountering problems with the posts of another member use the report to moderator function... do not reply to them in thread.
Attention all users!!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Mystic Wolf we are of course glad to have you here at MartialTalk! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Mystic Wolf]

All I am saying, study the art you are in, disect each movement and work with the flowing of the movement. Do not stay to focused on one technique, flow on to the next.

What a lot of Martial Artist do is take a little of this and a little of that and do not take the time to learn the whole art and miss the big picture. Atleast stay with it till you make black belt before moving on to the next art, this will make you more knowledgable in Martial Arts.

[arnisador]

BJJ was designed for todays society, the fast food McDonalds society. People don't have the attention span or the patience to learn an art all the way through.

Wow, I'm no expert in either BJJ or WC but I have studied both and I think you don't realize the depth and difficulty in BJJ! The subtleties of position and the detailed strategies would appeal to a WC person, I think. It takes much longer to be recognized as an expert in BJJ by one's peers than in WC, in my experience.

I much preferred WC, but BJJ adds something very useful.


And I am Si-JE's Hubbie.

Thanks for posting!

[Yoshiyahu]

I read your statement...you just validated what I said...You said you never say you kicked the arse of everyone you sparred. Thats something others say....

Well she is not saying she never been taking down or beat everyone she sparred...She is saying that her husband is the greatest...She falls under the other say those things not me...Her Husband never came on her bragging how he defeat all of us on here...

She thinks the greatest about her husband...She should...As should your wives...But to tell her not to think highly of her husband is just absord...Thats her man...


Of course she thinks there no one better its her husband...Give her a break in that respect.


LOL, dude are you serious here?? See, the difference is, I don't walk around thinking I'm a badass. I understand that I have weak areas, I understand that every art has a weak spot, I understand that theres always someone bigger and better. I strive to improve those areas.

But, you will not hear me say that I will never be taken down, that I've kicked the ass of everyone I've sparred with. Those are things that others say, not me.

[Yoshiyahu]

She has had training in Jujitsu and a Karate style...So she may have an idea what else is out there?



Biased?? Thats an understatement! LOL! LOL! See, all I'm simply trying to do is get you to see what else is out there. Its clear that you dont want to, but like I said, its not good to be so blinded. Open your eyes for a moment, and look at how other arts deal with things. Like I said, NO art has all the answers. Not TKD, Ninjutsu, Kenpo, and not WC.

[Si-Je]

She has had training in Jujitsu and a Karate style...So she may have an idea what else is out there?

Thank you Yoshi!
The styles I've taken for the record in order of when I took them, again: Tang Soo Do (3 years), Goshin Ju-Jitsu (3 years), Wu Wai Kung fu (6 months), TaiJi (very little though), Go Ju Ryu Karate (before it merged with Kempo 6months), Kali (6 months) KenJitsu (1 year) Japanese weapons (3 years), and now, Wing Chun (4 years).

[Mystic Wolf]

Wing Chun is an art that is always evolving, but it always stays within the 5 basic principles of Wing Chun. Utilizing sensitivity, spring energy, and rooting. I discect each movement of the forms of Wing Chun and apply them under different scenarios to see what flows best from one motion to the next. I do this while I'm standing, sitting, and on the ground. Utilizing all parts of my body.
By doing so, helps me obtain a better understanding of Wing Chun and how to utilize the techniques.
The goal I teach the students is they have 5 seconds to get off the ground once they're put there. This is our primary focus to get off the ground quickly.
Being on the ground is a dangerous place, especially if your fighting multiple attackers. And most confrontations I have been in there has always been two or more attackers.

[Yoshiyahu]

I see some faults in what your saying?


Wing Chun is already a Mixed Martial Arts...

BJJ is just grappling or wrestling...Ground Fighting is just Wrestling right...Well Ground fighting has existed before Wing Chun did right?
BJJ has existed how long? I think someone said 1993..Well Wing Chun would have been exposed to ground fighting way before it even came to America...You got Judo,Monkey Fighting,Sanda,JuiJitsu,Aikido, Hapkido and many other Arts Ancient WC masters fought and sparred with in the past to prove Wing Chun Works...An many masters defeated those wrestlers...
So its not BJJ that has changed Wing Chun...BJJ Fighters have changed their Brazilian Jitjisu according to Wing Chun and Muay Thai. Boxing has not changed because of BJJ...BJJ has changed because of boxing. It is seeking ways to counter these styles. So it has to adapt a standing game to succeed. But Wing Chun already had Grappling with in it...Not all styles deal with Grappling but its in there...From the time you grab a leg or arm or hips or thigh...Wing Chun has had ways to advoid or counter those moves. Some Sifu's only teach the kicking and punching aspect...But hidden with in the forms there are all the answers for you. Also if you have a skilled Sifu to go over with you how to apply Wing Chun Techniques on the ground or standing grappling.

Wing Chun in China has not changed...So BJJ has no impact on Wing Chun...


Okay BJJ originates from Judo and Japanese Juijitsu

Wing Chun actually days back to 1800's. At which time over the years various masters fought all types of fighters including japanese and chinese and Tawianese and Thai. Wing Chun has Take Downs and throws. Wing Chun has anti Chin Na and Grappling.

It mainly deals with fighting standing up. But if you go to ground. You have the basic blocks to use...Fist strikes. Trapping hands and grappling hands techniques to use. You can chain punch the face which doesn't require one to drag back the Arms...Wing Chun even has chokeholds or neck grabs.

Here is statement about Wing Chun Sifu Wong using Throws:

"Another time the amazing Danny, a Thai kickboxer who was a foreign student from Thailand was sparring with my kung fu brother, Choi. Danny whipped his kick to Choi's head in a flash. It was Choi's first day in training. Danny turned around and challenged Sifu. Most of us had not expected it to happen so quickly. We couldn't what Sifu did. All we saw and heard was Danny's body slamming into the floor with a strong bang. Sifu explained what he did later. He said he used the throw from Bil Jee form, and he also said grandmaster Sum Neng had used the same throw once in a Hong Kong seminar, except the result was much more dramatic. At the time, a student had raised doubt about Wing Chun's throwing application. He challenged Sifu. As a result, that student landed on his head and passed out. He probably never figured out what hit him."


Another Time Sifu Wong Fights a Wrestlers

"Once I witnessed him substituting at a noisy kung fu class for a friend of his in college. At that time he was 19 years old. He picked the biggest volunteer in the class and dropped him in a flash. That was the first time he met wrestling champion (8 times) Mr. Gloss. The whole class of fifty people were shocked. You could hear a pin drop!"

The Guy talking has studied Hapkido, Jujitsu, JKD and Karate Here is his full account: http://wingchunkf.com/jkdvswingchun.htm

This guy who also has some Jujitsu experience said this:

"He told me that practicing the forms alone would not make me understand the priciples and applications of Wing Chun. He also tested my sensitivity with his hands attached to mine. I was not able to sense or block his punches. Even though he had told me in advance where he would try to hit me. He did the same thing to every one I knew. It puzzled that I couldn't do the same thing he did to me. Out of frustration and curiosity, I suggested we go under a freeway for an all out sparring match. Since I was at my prime physical state, ten years older, heavier and bigger than him, I thought I had every bit of an advantage of winning the sparring contest. But in no time I became his punching bag. It went beyond my power and comprehension that he could generate such power and throw me in every direction. All I could see was the sky turning upside down. There was a blackout and from there on I couldn't remember a thing. Afterwards, he explained to me in depth about sensitivity and "yee"...intention and chi, trapping is only the beginning portion of sticky hands in Wing Chun Kung Fu. "


I will end here...But Wing Chun has went up against Wrestlers and Ground fighters before and won. Although this guy was a grand master...So alot can be said from that...Mainly alot experience!




Whether the Wing Chun practitioner cross trains in BJJ, or the WC practitioner adapts his/her training to address the threat that BJJ poses, BJJ has made the art and the artist better.

I'm not sure why, si-je, you have such a chip on your shoulder for BJJ or for those who train and enjoy it. You do, though, so there it is. Getting away from whether or not BJJ is effective, or whether or not anti-grappling works, can you at least admit that BJJ has changed WC? The very fact that anti-grappling has been developed specifically to address the threat that lutadors and other grapplers pose is a testament to the effectiveness of BJJ and other styles of grappling.

So, addressing the original post, grappling and the threat of being taken to the ground must be tackled by the practitioner (haha... tackled... get it?). If we can agree on that, then it's a matter of discussing what's the best approach. Anti-grappling or actually studying a grappling art.

I personally believe that the best way to counter a technique is to learn the technique. Anti-grappling, IMO, is a misnomer. It's just grappling. To counter grappling, one must learn to grapple.

As for what works and what doesn't, my opinion is that it depends upon how one trains. If you train BJJ in a vacuum, never spar or pressure test the techniques, and never move past drills, BJJ would be functionally inneffective. It's not the art. The techniques are sound in BJJ, but only if they're trained effectively. My opinion is that other arts are the same. If you train WC in a vacuum, never pressure test the "anti-grappling" against proficient, competent grapplers, than the techniques have little chance of success. Conversely, if the techniques are pressure tested and trained well, chances of success go up.

In conclusion, I personally feel that your clear bias for WC over other arts and clear bias against BJJ as inferior to all other arts muddies the waters. Whether or not you admit it, BJJ has changed WC. As I said before, the very fact that "anti-grappling" exists demonstrates the truth of this.

Edit to add: I have never, and never intend to, mock or make fun of anyone's martial art. I have nothing against WC/WT or any other style as a whole. I get very, very tired of interesting threads devolving into an anti-bjj/mma bickerfest. And trolling isn't disagreeing. There is a big difference.

[Yoshiyahu]

Your Welcome....


Thank you Yoshi!
The styles I've taken for the record in order of when I took them, again: Tang Soo Do (3 years), Goshin Ju-Jitsu (3 years), Wu Wai Kung fu (6 months), TaiJi (very little though), Go Ju Ryu Karate (before it merged with Kempo 6months), Kali (6 months) KenJitsu (1 year) Japanese weapons (3 years), and now, Wing Chun (4 years).

[Yoshiyahu]

What are the basic principals of BJJ?



Wow, I'm no expert in either BJJ or WC but I have studied both and I think you don't realize the depth and difficulty in BJJ! The subtleties of position and the detailed strategies would appeal to a WC person, I think. It takes much longer to be recognized as an expert in BJJ by one's peers than in WC, in my experience.

I much preferred WC, but BJJ adds something very useful.



Thanks for posting!

[Yoshiyahu]

So true it depends on who the fighter is...An Wing Chun was designed to be able to use with in a year and the entire system could be used with in 3 years. But someone said BJJ takes 10 years to be and expert in. So in the mean time that means you can not fight with the BJJ? is that what they ment please clarify someone body any body...But Mystic you said it right any art you use can be devasting to your foe. If you have the Art...


I also agree with you in getting black belt first before you start taking on a new art?

Atleast this way you have proficency in your art and strong foundation that you can mesh a new art with the Wing Chun....


Wing Chun is a great art for inside fighting...Jeet Kune Do is great art for ground fighting and outside fighting. I think the two of those mesh together would work great in the ring!


I have studied other arts and none come to compare to WC/WT, but then again to each there own. One thing I have learned from where I live and being a Marine, it is not the style you fight with but the will to survive. When I fight, I do not fight to win, I fight to hurt. One way or another, I am going take down the person who threatens me or my family and therefore they will think twice before messing with me again.

So whether it is BJJ, Karate, Street Fighting, or Wing Chun, it is up to the individuale and how much heart they have to survive in a confritation. A peron can be skilled in an art but still have no heart or courage to face there adversary.

When it comes down to it, I will gouge your eyes, twist your nuts, bite your ears ect..., it is all about survival.

[Si-Je]

Beautiful post Yoshi!

[jarrod]

So true it depends on who the fighter is...An Wing Chun was designed to be able to use with in a year and the entire system could be used with in 3 years. But someone said BJJ takes 10 years to be and expert in. So in the mean time that means you can not fight with the BJJ? is that what they ment please clarify someone body any body...But Mystic you said it right any art you use can be devasting to your foe. If you have the Art...


I also agree with you in getting black belt first before you start taking on a new art?

Atleast this way you have proficency in your art and strong foundation that you can mesh a new art with the Wing Chun....


Wing Chun is a great art for inside fighting...Jeet Kune Do is great art for ground fighting and outside fighting. I think the two of those mesh together would work great in the ring!

black belts mean different things in different arts. in my style of jujitsu (shingitai) our coach tells us that it's roughly equivelant to graduating high school. you have a basic education, but you're no professor. now in bjj it means something different; i'm not a bjj guy so i'll let someone else answer that. but most bjj people have said that blue belt signifies a general knowledge of the basics.

so in light of black belts having different meanings, i disagree that you must get a black belt before you branch out. but i do agree that it is a bad idea to cobble together bits & peices from various styles without really understanding one in any depth. you have to have a strong base, whatever it is.

jf

[Hand Sword]

So true it depends on who the fighter is...An Wing Chun was designed to be able to use with in a year and the entire system could be used with in 3 years. But someone said BJJ takes 10 years to be and expert in. So in the mean time that means you can not fight with the BJJ? is that what they ment please clarify someone body any body...But Mystic you said it right any art you use can be devasting to your foe. If you have the Art...


I also agree with you in getting black belt first before you start taking on a new art?

Atleast this way you have proficency in your art and strong foundation that you can mesh a new art with the Wing Chun....


Wing Chun is a great art for inside fighting...Jeet Kune Do is great art for ground fighting and outside fighting. I think the two of those mesh together would work great in the ring!


That's because Bruce Lee was a Wng Chun student first. Also, this argument could prove against yours. JKD came about because from fighting, Bruce realised things were lacking or missing--hence the birth of JKD. He was also studying wrestling and grappling, judging from his books and accounts of his friends and training partners.

Not trying to offend or get into it in here. I have neither sufficient expertise in either style, though I've incorporated things from both. I think both sides have made valid arguments, when the personal stuff was left alone. :asian:

[Yoshiyahu]

There was a clever reason I mention Jeet Kune Do...You are Correct JKD incorporates the basic principals of Wing Chun, Sensitivity from Wing Chun and Wooden man drills from Wing Chun along with aspects of Sil Lim Tau hidden in two man drills. But Bruce Lee also merged with WC. Kicks from northern shaolin and He also utilizes steps or footwork from boxing and fencing. As well as a couple of punches from boxing. Along with that He also adds Judo. Which he learn from one his co-instructors he selected. He picked up western boxing too.

But as for the reason why Jun Fan had to fill in the gaps...Was because he didn't have the entire system of Wing Chun. He also had noted birth defect. So many of traditional Horse stance and arrow stance found in Tai Chi he couldn't do. But he successful defeated many people using Wing Chun and his Wu Style Tai Chi....

Error Tai Chi was actually his first style not Wing Chun. He Learn Wing Chun from age 13 to 18. But partially due to mix hertiage through his mother side He didn't get the entire system of Wing Chun. But he was a great fighter. An what he didn't get from Wing Chun He got from the West. He was a fighter...He was only interested in learning the Fighting Aspect of WC...Not so much second form or third form...The JKD system doesn't even have forms...

So Bruce had a leg shorter than other which made his stance work lacking...So incorportated boxing stance for power and fencing steps for fluidity. He had to keep moving because his leg structures. So why not adapt to whats more advantageous to you. In fact all Wing Chun Grandmasters have done this making their Forms and Wing Chun differ from others who came before them...

But Lee's not have the whole system doesn't mean WC was lacking on the contrary...Wing Chun is boxing Art so why add boxing punches an strategy...Simple...Take what works...if I am fighting an MMA guy...i too will switch from Wing Chun to Boxing...to Kick Boxing to Aikido to Judo if I can get the move off....I may even throw in some strikes I learn from Tai Chi and Tiger and Crane. I will use Wing Chun Steps for power and leverage I will use Bagua steps to circle or flank my opponent and I will use Boxing hand strategy and steps as well to confuse my opponent...

I will use the bridge in Wing Chun...i will fight inside...or fight outside like kick boxing...i will use no bridge and give my opponent nothing to feel as well. So it depends...I switch in instant for my best advantage...why stay stactic?

Nothing wrong with Grappling Styles...Wing Chun also has grappling as well as sticky legs...Thats why Chi Sau is teaching you. Grappling and Trapping standing up.

Ground fighting in WC. Not everyone teaches but its there!


That's because Bruce Lee was a Wng Chun student first. Also, this argument could prove against yours. JKD came about because from fighting, Bruce realised things were lacking or missing--hence the birth of JKD. He was also studying wrestling and grappling, judging from his books and accounts of his friends and training partners.

Not trying to offend or get into it in here. I have neither sufficient expertise in either style, though I've incorporated things from both. I think both sides have made valid arguments, when the personal stuff was left alone. :asian:

[Steve]

I see some faults in what your saying?


Wing Chun is already a Mixed Martial Arts...I guess that depends upon your definition of the term. Bruce Lee felt that it was necessary to move beyond his WC roots and train in a variety of styles including Greco Roman Wrestling and Judo.
BJJ is just grappling or wrestling...Ground Fighting is just Wrestling right...Well Ground fighting has existed before Wing Chun did right?Ground fighting's been around a long time. True.
BJJ has existed how long? I think someone said 1993..Not quite right. I said that 1993 was a pivotal year for martial arts throughout the world. That was the year the first UFC was held in which a relatively small guy defeated a multitude of martial artists and street fighters by taking them to the ground.

BJJ itself has been around since the early 1900's, a very close cousin to Judo and direct descendant to traditional jujutsu from Japan. As a traditional art, it is as well established as many of the modern styles of Karate, TKD and many other "traditional martial arts."


Well Wing Chun would have been exposed to ground fighting way before it even came to America...You got Judo,Monkey Fighting,Sanda,JuiJitsu,Aikido, Hapkido and many other Arts. Ancient WC masters fought and sparred with in the past to prove Wing Chun Works...An many masters defeated those wrestlers... Just so I'm clear, are you guessing here?

So its not BJJ that has changed Wing Chun...BJJ Fighters have changed their Brazilian Jitjisu according to Wing Chun and Muay Thai. I think you misunderstood my point. My point wasn't that BJJ is the ultimate art. My point was that UFC 1, in 1993, demonstrated that the conventional wisdom of the 20th century to that point, that "I don't need grappling because if a grappler tries to take me to the ground I will [insert deadly technique here]" was shown to be flawed. Strikers, come to find out, NEED to address grappling. BJJ (via the Gracie family) just happened to be the style of grappling with the combination of moxy, skill and entrepenurial spirit to organize a venue large enough and with enough visibility to make this clear. UFC 1 changed martial arts training world wide.
Boxing has not changed because of BJJ...BJJ has changed because of boxing. It is seeking ways to counter these styles. So it has to adapt a standing game to succeed. But Wing Chun already had Grappling with in it...Not all styles deal with Grappling but its in there...Not sure I follow this one. Could you explain to me how "anti-grappling" came to be. Maybe I don't understand the history of it.
From the time you grab a leg or arm or hips or thigh...Wing Chun has had ways to advoid or counter those moves. Some Sifu's only teach the kicking and punching aspect...But hidden with in the forms there are all the answers for you. Also if you have a skilled Sifu to go over with you how to apply Wing Chun Techniques on the ground or standing grappling.

Wing Chun in China has not changed...So BJJ has no impact on Wing Chun...BJJ or some other style of grappling. Once again, I'm not alleging that BJJ is the ultimate. BJJ, Judo, Sambo, or some other style of grappling/ground fighting. Take your pick.

Okay BJJ originates from Judo and Japanese Juijitsu

Wing Chun actually days back to 1800's. At which time over the years various masters fought all types of fighters including japanese and chinese and Tawianese and Thai. Wing Chun has Take Downs and throws. Wing Chun has anti Chin Na and Grappling. Once again, maybe I don't understand WC history, but my impression is that anti grappling is a relatively new discovery/application of WC concepts.

[Steve]

What are the basic principals of BJJ?In 100 words or less? I'm not sure what you're looking for here. I'd say one of the fundamental principals of BJJ include positional dominance (ie, "position before submission") with a heirarchy of positions on the ground.

There is a strong culture of pressure testing techniques and training in what is now commonly referred to as "alive" training, emphasizing three stages of training: introduction, isolation and incorporation. The incorporation part is trained through open sparring and often in competition.

There is an emphasis on personal ownership of one's training and development, as well as the development of one's personal style. Everyone is different. The goal isn't to make my technique exactly like the black belt who's teaching me. Rather, the result is the goal. It's not what my armbar looks like. Instead, it's whether my armbar works.

We can get further into concepts like base, leverage, dead angles and weight distribution, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for. Let me know. Ultimately, I think the original post was suggesting that these concepts are somewhat universal, and therefore could lend themselves to some crosstraining.
So true it depends on who the fighter is...An Wing Chun was designed to be able to use with in a year and the entire system could be used with in 3 years. But someone said BJJ takes 10 years to be and expert in. So in the mean time that means you can not fight with the BJJ? is that what they ment please clarify someone body any body...But Mystic you said it right any art you use can be devasting to your foe. If you have the Art...Once again, I think you're misunderstanding. BJJ is complex, as is any grappling art (most striking arts, as well). The point wasn't that BJJ was harder; rather, it's not easy.

As for the 3 year marker, I'd say that regardless of what style you train, HOW you train will have more to do with how proficient you are after 3 years. I'd put my money on a 3 year grappler over a 3 year WC'er for skill and proficiency, but again, that would depend upon how the WC'er trains.

Also, because of how BJJ is taught, the results are remarkably consistent. Anyone who sticks with it, barring gross physical or mental impairments, will improve. If you stick with it long enough, training consistently, you will get better. I'm not a particularly gifted athlete, but I train consistently and get better each month. Women can do it. Men of all sizes can do it. Fat guys and thin. Bruce Lee would have been great at it, even with a short leg. :)
There was a clever reason I mention Jeet Kune Do...You are Correct JKD incorporates the basic principals of Wing Chun, Sensitivity from Wing Chun and Wooden man drills from Wing Chun along with aspects of Sil Lim Tau hidden in two man drills. But Bruce Lee also merged with WC. Kicks from northern shaolin and He also utilizes steps or footwork from boxing and fencing. As well as a couple of punches from boxing. Along with that He also adds Judo. Which he learn from one his co-instructors he selected. He picked up western boxing too.So, you're saying that Bruce Lee cross trained because of a birth defect and for no other reason? I'm not sure where you're headed with that post.

[Steve]

black belts mean different things in different arts. in my style of jujitsu (shingitai) our coach tells us that it's roughly equivelant to graduating high school. you have a basic education, but you're no professor. now in bjj it means something different; i'm not a bjj guy so i'll let someone else answer that. but most bjj people have said that blue belt signifies a general knowledge of the basics.

so in light of black belts having different meanings, i disagree that you must get a black belt before you branch out. but i do agree that it is a bad idea to cobble together bits & peices from various styles without really understanding one in any depth. you have to have a strong base, whatever it is.

jfI think that's about right. I put a purple belt in BJJ solidly on par with 1st dan/1st degree black belt in most other styles I'm aware of. This is based upon what stylists from other arts have described to me here and in other places. A blue belt is at least equivalent to a brown belt in other styles, having trained on average for between 1 and 2 years. A purple belt usually takes 3 to 4 years of consistent training. I'm trying to err solidly on the conservative side, as I've seen some blue belts who are outstanding martial artists.

[jarrod]

I think that's about right. I put a purple belt in BJJ solidly on par with 1st dan/1st degree black belt in most other styles I'm aware of. This is based upon what stylists from other arts have described to me here and in other places. A blue belt is at least equivalent to a brown belt in other styles, having trained on average for between 1 and 2 years. A purple belt usually takes 3 to 4 years of consistent training. I'm trying to err solidly on the conservative side, as I've seen some blue belts who are outstanding martial artists.

we have to generalize when we talk about ranks in different styles, but my assistant coach (shingitai & judo 1st dan) just got back from vacation where he trained at a bjj school. based on his experience, that adds up. he was give & take with the purple belts on the mat. a black belt in sjj takes about 4-5 years of consistent training to get.

there is another jjj style i was researching (name escapes me at the moment) but they said it took only about 2 years to get your black belt. but you couldn't teach their style until you had your 4th degree black belt. so once again, rank is a bit relative to the style.

jf

[Hand Sword]

There was a clever reason I mention Jeet Kune Do...You are Correct JKD incorporates the basic principals of Wing Chun, Sensitivity from Wing Chun and Wooden man drills from Wing Chun along with aspects of Sil Lim Tau hidden in two man drills. But Bruce Lee also merged with WC. Kicks from northern shaolin and He also utilizes steps or footwork from boxing and fencing. As well as a couple of punches from boxing. Along with that He also adds Judo. Which he learn from one his co-instructors he selected. He picked up western boxing too.

But as for the reason why Jun Fan had to fill in the gaps...Was because he didn't have the entire system of Wing Chun. He also had noted birth defect. So many of traditional Horse stance and arrow stance found in Tai Chi he couldn't do. But he successful defeated many people using Wing Chun and his Wu Style Tai Chi....

Error Tai Chi was actually his first style not Wing Chun. He Learn Wing Chun from age 13 to 18. But partially due to mix hertiage through his mother side He didn't get the entire system of Wing Chun. But he was a great fighter. An what he didn't get from Wing Chun He got from the West. He was a fighter...He was only interested in learning the Fighting Aspect of WC...Not so much second form or third form...The JKD system doesn't even have forms...

So Bruce had a leg shorter than other which made his stance work lacking...So incorportated boxing stance for power and fencing steps for fluidity. He had to keep moving because his leg structures. So why not adapt to whats more advantageous to you. In fact all Wing Chun Grandmasters have done this making their Forms and Wing Chun differ from others who came before them...

But Lee's not have the whole system doesn't mean WC was lacking on the contrary...Wing Chun is boxing Art so why add boxing punches an strategy...Simple...Take what works...if I am fighting an MMA guy...i too will switch from Wing Chun to Boxing...to Kick Boxing to Aikido to Judo if I can get the move off....I may even throw in some strikes I learn from Tai Chi and Tiger and Crane. I will use Wing Chun Steps for power and leverage I will use Bagua steps to circle or flank my opponent and I will use Boxing hand strategy and steps as well to confuse my opponent...

I will use the bridge in Wing Chun...i will fight inside...or fight outside like kick boxing...i will use no bridge and give my opponent nothing to feel as well. So it depends...I switch in instant for my best advantage...why stay stactic?

Nothing wrong with Grappling Styles...Wing Chun also has grappling as well as sticky legs...Thats why Chi Sau is teaching you. Grappling and Trapping standing up.

Ground fighting in WC. Not everyone teaches but its there!


I meant that 1st he did wing chun before the JKD, not first as in overall experience. Also, since he trained WC for years I'm sure he got the system, since you said it takes about 1 to 3. Another thing, anyone who knew him or saw him attested to his outstanding knowledge, capabilities, and skills.

Bottom line, he felt that he had to change Wing Chun because of lacking areas. Since he did a lot of fighting, and trained harder than anyone (arguably) very few could out measure him on the subject at hand.

The WC had to change. Don't take it personal, ALL OF THE SYSTEMS HAVE CHANGED (as you pointed out, even BJJ) through the years. Why? They lacked something according to the views of the founders. So, now, there's eclectic styles over the TMA's. Don't like them? p God bless, practice yours and enjoy.

As I said I don't want to get into this with you or anyone else.

[Yoshiyahu]

I believe it was documented that Jun Fan didn't have the entire system. An also it is documented that he had malformative...Which is why he adopted the footwork of fencing...Really there is no perfect style..you have to comform to that style..Some people have an easier time comforming to another style than others...It depends on you and your body..some people are naturally better kicks others are naturally better boxers...Bruce Lee adopted his style to be able to adapt to western fighters. So he mixed it up...Which is what one should do in fighting anyway..


But the main thing is he had some level of proficency in WC before he learn judo...meaning he learn WC for about five years then later on he picked up a little judo.


I meant that 1st he did wing chun before the JKD, not first as in overall experience. Also, since he trained WC for years I'm sure he got the system, since you said it takes about 1 to 3. Another thing, anyone who knew him or saw him attested to his outstanding knowledge, capabilities, and skills.

Bottom line, he felt that he had to change Wing Chun because of lacking areas. Since he did a lot of fighting, and trained harder than anyone (arguably) very few could out measure him on the subject at hand.

The WC had to change. Don't take it personal, ALL OF THE SYSTEMS HAVE CHANGED (as you pointed out, even BJJ) through the years. Why? They lacked something according to the views of the founders. So, now, there's eclectic styles over the TMA's. Don't like them? p God bless, practice yours and enjoy.

As I said I don't want to get into this with you or anyone else.

[Hand Sword]

I believe it was documented that Jun Fan didn't have the entire system. An also it is documented that he had malformative...Which is why he adopted the footwork of fencing...Really there is no perfect style..you have to comform to that style..Some people have an easier time comforming to another style than others...It depends on you and your body..some people are naturally better kicks others are naturally better boxers...Bruce Lee adopted his style to be able to adapt to western fighters. So he mixed it up...Which is what one should do in fighting anyway..


But the main thing is he had some level of proficency in WC before he learn judo...meaning he learn WC for about five years then later on he picked up a little judo.


Do you? Or is the system supposed to serve you? http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif Your arguing two opposite points here. Conform or adapt? Which is it?

As all of the TMA's have done. Which is the real point of discussion of this particular thread. Again, if you feel that WC doesn't need the "help" that's your view, God Bless, and keep training.

[Yoshiyahu]

I am not saying Jun Fan only trained because of birth defect...But that was the reason he realize he was too slow...He needed something to bridge the gap...He was always finding new ways to be better fighter...Nothing wrong with that. Wing Chun is a system...It allows for additions I agree with you...But I am saying once you have proficency in BJJ...then try to develop your WC or Vice Versa...Don't try both at the same time...

It could be rather confusing do both...

But Jun Fan cross train to bridge the gap because he felt he should be able to defeat an opponent alot faster. Actually Chinese Martial Arts have ground fighting. So If Jun Fan had really discovered all of the WC I am sure he would have discovered how to use it against a wrestler with out playing a wrestlers game?

Stevebjj said:
Once again, maybe I don't understand WC history, but my impression is that anti grappling is a relatively new discovery/application of WC concepts.

The Term Anti grappling is new English word yes. But Grappling in the Wing Chun System is not a new term...

Chinese Terms: http://www.fongswingchun.com/terms.html

Day ton bok gek = ground fighting

Toi dit = take downs

Toi dit chi sau = takedowns in chi sau

Bak gek = sparring

Chi sun = body sticking

Kum la = joint locks


Chinese Judo or Wrestling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_Jiao

Wikipedia says:
Shuai Jiao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_Jiao), a wrestling style originating in China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China), is arguably the most ancient of all Chinese martial arts, with a reported history of over 4,000 years. (The date may be legendary, but wrestling was reportedly used by the Yellow Emperor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Emperor) during his fight against the rebel Chih Yiu and his army in 2697 BC.) During these matches, the combatants reportedly wore horned helmets that they used to gore their opponents while using a primitive form of grappling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappling).


*Now Judo and Jiujitsu have been around for awhile. Shunai Jiao existed long before Wing Chun. So when the WC system was devised it had to incorporate every possible scenario in a fight. For many of founding Father's had to make contact with Ground fighters and take down experts in their lifetime. WC has been on the planet too long to not have this experience. Also on the other board concerning BJJ I address in my Lineage some of Wing Chun Sifu's who encountered wrestlers. In fact Sum Nung students was a wrestler. Now Wing Chun doesn't have all the ground techniques. But it has basic self defense and ground removal and escape tactics. It has basic throws. May be not all 300 throws from Judo but it has some. Now Wing Chun doesn't incorporate every kick that is done in China but it has many low kicks. Wing Chun doesn't incorporate every hand strike or punch but it does have some.

*Jujutsu was first developed by Samurai. The Term Jututsu wasn't established until the 17th century. The Japanese have always been in China. So you know Gung Fu men had to have had fights with the Japanese and learn to adapt to their styles of Karate and Judo. So Wing Chun a Newer system would incorporate fighting strategies to combat many styles including ground fighting.

Now under the Yuen Kay San Lineage there is a sifu named Kwok Wan Ping.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/history_kwokwanping.html

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/history_kwokwanping_portrait.jpg

wok Wan-Ping (Guo Yunping) was born in the late 1939. He studied for 4 years at the Guangzhou and Wuhon Sports Institutes and went on to win the All-China lightweight wrestling championship during that time. At the institute, he studied Mongolian, freestyle, and Greco-Roman wrestling. He also learned weight lifting, fencing, and other Chinese martial arts.


Oh an then I forgot about Mongolian Wrestling. Yes, I forgot. These are all different schools of fighting the Chinese would have to fight. So in reality. They did have some experience against these arts. Which already made Wing Chun quite diverse before the advent of Brazilian Jujitsu in the 1900's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_wrestling

Disclaimer:Some Wing Chun Lineages do have Ground Fighting Not all but some. All Wing Chun is not created equal!



Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen absolutely contains groundfighting since it's a Shaolin based art. Chin Na is one of it's major components which includes ground work. Being Buddhist in origin many groundfighting techniques are done from a seated or lotus posture. Many body movements and escapes are taught within the seated meditation techniques. www.buddhapalm.com (http://www.buddhapalm.com)





In 100 words or less? I'm not sure what you're looking for here. I'd say one of the fundamental principals of BJJ include positional dominance (ie, "position before submission") with a heirarchy of positions on the ground.

There is a strong culture of pressure testing techniques and training in what is now commonly referred to as "alive" training, emphasizing three stages of training: introduction, isolation and incorporation. The incorporation part is trained through open sparring and often in competition.

There is an emphasis on personal ownership of one's training and development, as well as the development of one's personal style. Everyone is different. The goal isn't to make my technique exactly like the black belt who's teaching me. Rather, the result is the goal. It's not what my armbar looks like. Instead, it's whether my armbar works.

We can get further into concepts like base, leverage, dead angles and weight distribution, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for. Let me know. Ultimately, I think the original post was suggesting that these concepts are somewhat universal, and therefore could lend themselves to some crosstraining.Once again, I think you're misunderstanding. BJJ is complex, as is any grappling art (most striking arts, as well). The point wasn't that BJJ was harder; rather, it's not easy.

As for the 3 year marker, I'd say that regardless of what style you train, HOW you train will have more to do with how proficient you are after 3 years. I'd put my money on a 3 year grappler over a 3 year WC'er for skill and proficiency, but again, that would depend upon how the WC'er trains.

Also, because of how BJJ is taught, the results are remarkably consistent. Anyone who sticks with it, barring gross physical or mental impairments, will improve. If you stick with it long enough, training consistently, you will get better. I'm not a particularly gifted athlete, but I train consistently and get better each month. Women can do it. Men of all sizes can do it. Fat guys and thin. Bruce Lee would have been great at it, even with a short leg. :)So, you're saying that Bruce Lee cross trained because of a birth defect and for no other reason? I'm not sure where you're headed with that post.

[dungeonworks]

...Ultimately, I think the original post was suggesting that these concepts are somewhat universal, and therefore could lend themselves to some crosstraining...

That's exactly what I was asking rather than suggesting. Thanks Steve.

[seasoned]

When an art is referred to as complete, it is not considered to contain all aspects of all arts. It is enough to study one art in a life time, let alone 2-3. Any old traditional art, will have aspects of other arts, within it’s teachings. Okinawan GoJu is a traditional art, as is W/C. I can’t speck for W/C, but I can speck of my art, and the parallels that exist. We have hit 135 posts, which would constitute a great thread, except for the numerous warnings. Within these posts each side is defending their chosen art, which makes for great conversation. The broad picture is, old arts had a base that constituted their given art. The smaller picture is these founders, did in fact, cross train and incorporate other techniques, into their art, to make it complete, or in their eyes a “complete art”. Any complete art will contain four basic categories of fighting techniques, hand striking, kicking, wrestling, and Qin na/ chin na. As arts of survival, born out of lawless times, this is what was needed to defeat someone that was trying to destroy you. As we know, it was at this time kata was also born, so as to preserve all this information, and not lose it. Now as modern day practitioners we are left to decipher these kata. It was said in some posts that we should stay with one art, and build a strong base, before experimenting with other arts. From here I can speck from experience in that I studied Okinawan GoJu for many years, and along the way, made friends from others arts. As we interacted with each other, much like we are doing here at MT, we began to see techniques emerge that were similar to certain moves that we did faithfully in kata, for many, many years, but had no idea what they meant. When I first studied kata, my Sensei didn’t mention throws within the kata, why, did he know they were there, or was he holding back, so as not to interfere with the training or learning process. I don’t know. But they are there along with much more. This post is long because we are at 136 or so posts, but the constant theme has been the same, who’s art is better, or who can defeat who. Bottom line is all arts contain all aspects of defense, it is only when we make a sport out of it, that it becomes other then it’s intended purpose. Give grapplers some strikes and kicks, and give W/C some grappling, and let the games begin, or do they already have these techniques???

[KamonGuy2]

Woah woah! I go away for a couple of days and people are fighting and getting warned by moderators!!

Dudes, we are here to chat. It is great that everyone is so passionate but I think the truth of it is that no matter how good your opinion is, you are never going to win everyone over

I remember a guy who came down to our kwoon who said that he could kick my head faster than I could punch him. He would not accept that he might be wrong. So I said to him please show me.
Let's just say he was wrong.

I am always open minded enough and can sympathise with chunners who don't want to do grappling. But please please don't be foolish enough to argue that you will never get taken to the floor. Standing at different sides of a ring/octagon and going at it is different to a bar brawl where it can just explode.

The Cheung vs Boztepe always comes up in these arguments and for good reason. You have a supposedly seasoned 'grandmaster' of an art that will never go to ground, and in a couple of seconds the 'fight' goes to ground. Yes it was a sham, but displayed very clearly that even the most traditional of wing chun masters needs a ground game

The extension to BJJ is simply that BJJ is a very very good grappling art. It is not perfect, but it uses many concepts that wing chun itself prides itself on.

All I would say is that go and give BJJ a try, whether it be at a seminar or beginners class, and you will get a very good idea of what we are discussing.

We are not trying to take something away from wing chun, instead we want to add to it and make it stronger. Don't mix up your arts, but have arts in standby
Don't fear something new,but understand its principles and use it where it can be used

Peace out

[Steve]

I am not saying Jun Fan only trained because of birth defect...But that was the reason he realize he was too slow...He needed something to bridge the gap...He was always finding new ways to be better fighter...Nothing wrong with that. Wing Chun is a system...It allows for additions I agree with you...But I am saying once you have proficency in BJJ...then try to develop your WC or Vice Versa...Don't try both at the same time...

It could be rather confusing do both...

But Jun Fan cross train to bridge the gap because he felt he should be able to defeat an opponent alot faster. Actually Chinese Martial Arts have ground fighting. So If Jun Fan had really discovered all of the WC I am sure he would have discovered how to use it against a wrestler with out playing a wrestlers game?

Stevebjj said:

The Term Anti grappling is new English word yes. But Grappling in the Wing Chun System is not a new term...

Chinese Terms: http://www.fongswingchun.com/terms.html

Day ton bok gek = ground fighting

Toi dit = take downs

Toi dit chi sau = takedowns in chi sau

Bak gek = sparring

Chi sun = body sticking

Kum la = joint locks


Chinese Judo or Wrestling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuai_Jiao

Wikipedia says:


*Now Judo and Jiujitsu have been around for awhile. Shunai Jiao existed long before Wing Chun. So when the WC system was devised it had to incorporate every possible scenario in a fight. For many of founding Father's had to make contact with Ground fighters and take down experts in their lifetime. WC has been on the planet too long to not have this experience. Also on the other board concerning BJJ I address in my Lineage some of Wing Chun Sifu's who encountered wrestlers. In fact Sum Nung students was a wrestler. Now Wing Chun doesn't have all the ground techniques. But it has basic self defense and ground removal and escape tactics. It has basic throws. May be not all 300 throws from Judo but it has some. Now Wing Chun doesn't incorporate every kick that is done in China but it has many low kicks. Wing Chun doesn't incorporate every hand strike or punch but it does have some.

*Jujutsu was first developed by Samurai. The Term Jututsu wasn't established until the 17th century. The Japanese have always been in China. So you know Gung Fu men had to have had fights with the Japanese and learn to adapt to their styles of Karate and Judo. So Wing Chun a Newer system would incorporate fighting strategies to combat many styles including ground fighting.

Now under the Yuen Kay San Lineage there is a sifu named Kwok Wan Ping.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/history_kwokwanping.html

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/history_kwokwanping_portrait.jpg



Oh an then I forgot about Mongolian Wrestling. Yes, I forgot. These are all different schools of fighting the Chinese would have to fight. So in reality. They did have some experience against these arts. Which already made Wing Chun quite diverse before the advent of Brazilian Jujitsu in the 1900's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_wrestling

Disclaimer:Some Wing Chun Lineages do have Ground Fighting Not all but some. All Wing Chun is not created equal!


Thanks, I'm very familiar with Shuai Jiao and Mongolian Wrestling. It seems to me that For WC to in some way claim to own Shuai Jiao is like Western Boxing to in some way lay claim to Catch as Catch Can. Once again, I am no expert. My understanding is that Shuai Jiao is its own discreet martial system having little to nothing to do with WC.

I also want to be clear that I'm not referring to warriors from bygone eras. I think it's interesting to talk about the roots and origins of fighting styles. The traditional Japanese roots of BJJ and its journey through South America are interesting to me. I also enjoy hearing about the history of WC. I am not sure that I can agree, however, that modern practitioners of any art can claim ownership through osmosis of the practical experience of long dead masters. What I mean is, if YOU want to effectively defend yourself aginst a ground fighter, YOU have to gain personal experience with ACTUAL groundfighters.

if you train the techniques as Emin demonstrates in his video, against unrealistic techniques, you'll be very sad when/if you ever see an actual guard pass.

[Steve]

That's exactly what I was asking rather than suggesting. Thanks Steve.
:) As with all things, I think that this is a matter of focus and bias. Do you focus on what's different or the same? I think that if we look, there is likely much in common.

[Si-Je]

Well, what approaches to ground fighting and concepts of BJJ is similar to Wing Chun principles and concepts in defense? This is where I'm unclear on how they would be similar to one another.
I can see maybe that when a grappler shoots in this could be akin to the WC/WT addage of "shortest distance between two points" in that a grappler comes straight into attack an opponent's foundation in a takedown.
But, once your there how would BJJ be close to WC/WT concept in the actual take down?
i.e. is shooting into the legs or hips head first the most effecient and the most minimal use of brute strength to execute a takedown?
How would you apply WC/WT concept to achieve maximum effeciency in this common and popular technique of BJJ? And wouldn't you expose yourself to being kicked, kneed or be setup to expose your neck and head to being punched, kicked, etc.? Is this technique allowing you to protect your centerline, or keep your centerline on your oponent so you have all your "weapons" at your quick and easy disposal to adapt, respond, and defend against the opponent's counter, parry, or defense?
These are things I think of when thinking of adding BJJ technique to a Wing Chun base of understanding. I'm just not quite seeing how the two would be remotely similar on many levels, and see many conflicts in applying principles of WC/WT while trying to execute BJJ technique.
Plus, like I said, there is a whole range of techniques covered in WC/WT in this very range. I'd just be sad to see those techniques miminized and forgotten because one would replace it with BJJ.
Also, I don't think anyone is saying that a WC/WT person could never be taken to the ground, or that we train with the mindset that that would never happen. I think just about every WC/WT practitioner is aware of that possibility and we generally train to avoid the takedown, be as rooted as possible, while staying relaxed so if the takedown does come we can adapt and respond properly to the energy and inertia of the opponent as quickly as possible. Just because it's not the desire or goal of a WC/WT practitioner to go to the ground on purpose or as a first line of defense, or that we wish to get off the ground asap, doesn't mean WC/WT concepts and theory doesn't cover these situations.
What my Sifu and I have seen is that many WC/WT schools that even teach ground fighting only do so much later in a students training (i.e. 2-3 years later) This is something my teacher has decided to change, and start basic training in anti-grappling in Grade 1 to match what the student is learning standing with same same technique on the ground. This so the student has at least a basic knowledge to defend against this form of popular attack in the beginning to help them feel more secure and well rounded.

[seasoned]

:) As with all things, I think that this is a matter of focus and bias. Do you focus on what's different or the same? I think that if we look, there is likely much in common.

Yea, self defense. W/C wants to get the grapplers off the ground, and the grapplers went to get the W/C on the ground.J Bottom line is, all I care about, is the everyday joe, that decides he doesn’t like the economy, and feels he wants to take what I have away from me. God bless him, may the better person win. :wink1:

[Steve]

Well, what approaches to ground fighting and concepts of BJJ is similar to Wing Chun principles and concepts in defense? This is where I'm unclear on how they would be similar to one another.
I can see maybe that when a grappler shoots in this could be akin to the WC/WT addage of "shortest distance between two points" in that a grappler comes straight into attack an opponent's foundation in a takedown.
But, once your there how would BJJ be close to WC/WT concept in the actual take down?
i.e. is shooting into the legs or hips head first the most effecient and the most minimal use of brute strength to execute a takedown?
How would you apply WC/WT concept to achieve maximum effeciency in this common and popular technique of BJJ? And wouldn't you expose yourself to being kicked, kneed or be setup to expose your neck and head to being punched, kicked, etc.? Is this technique allowing you to protect your centerline, or keep your centerline on your oponent so you have all your "weapons" at your quick and easy disposal to adapt, respond, and defend against the opponent's counter, parry, or defense?
These are things I think of when thinking of adding BJJ technique to a Wing Chun base of understanding. I'm just not quite seeing how the two would be remotely similar on many levels, and see many conflicts in applying principles of WC/WT while trying to execute BJJ technique.
Plus, like I said, there is a whole range of techniques covered in WC/WT in this very range. I'd just be sad to see those techniques miminized and forgotten because one would replace it with BJJ.
Also, I don't think anyone is saying that a WC/WT person could never be taken to the ground, or that we train with the mindset that that would never happen. I think just about every WC/WT practitioner is aware of that possibility and we generally train to avoid the takedown, be as rooted as possible, while staying relaxed so if the takedown does come we can adapt and respond properly to the energy and inertia of the opponent as quickly as possible. Just because it's not the desire or goal of a WC/WT practitioner to go to the ground on purpose or as a first line of defense, or that we wish to get off the ground asap, doesn't mean WC/WT concepts and theory doesn't cover these situations.
What my Sifu and I have seen is that many WC/WT schools that even teach ground fighting only do so much later in a students training (i.e. 2-3 years later) This is something my teacher has decided to change, and start basic training in anti-grappling in Grade 1 to match what the student is learning standing with same same technique on the ground. This so the student has at least a basic knowledge to defend against this form of popular attack in the beginning to help them feel more secure and well rounded.For what it's worth, I think you're fixating on one technique, a takedown that is more a part of wrestling than BJJ. BJJ focuses primarily on what happens AFTER the fight goes to the ground. The takedown is incidental. The takedowns I train are largely Judo and Wrestling takedowns, and not to the degree or with the expertise they have. I'm happy to discuss them as I can, but 90% of what I train is ground fighting... what happens when either you or I or both of us are no longer standing up.

Once on the ground, BJJ takes advantage of leverage over strength and size, and stacking the deck as much as possible. Being relaxed, working lockflow and using the opponent's strength and size against them, letting them do as much of the work as possible, is good jiu-jitsu. There are different styles employed, based upon body type. I tend to work a slow, relaxed and controlled game in which I strive to continuously improve position based upon what my opponent does. Others work a more dynamic style. I'm boring to watch, but then, I'm 38. I'd rather let the 20 year old guys move at 90 MPH.

I also don't recall anyone suggesting that any techniques be abandoned or forgotten. I think the idea is whether or not BJJ could be integrated to improve upon, add to or complement the techniques in WC. And again, I don't know enough about WC to be able to say, but I don't see why not. Based upon the video you posted, I think it could at the very least help refine the techniques being taught by providing more realistic techniques to drill against. As I said before, the techniques Emin demonstrated were counter to fundamentally flawed, sloppy technique. This doesn't mean that the moves and concepts Emin demonstrated are good or bad. Just that it's impossible to know from that video because the context in which they are demonstrated was unrealistic fiction.

[Si-Je]

I looked back on that post and wasn't too clear on the fact I use the shooting in type of takedown as an example only. How is this condusive to Wing Chun theory, concept and application?

As for what happens once on the ground with BJJ, this I believe would be where the glaring difference in applicaiton and approach would become known from BJJ to Wing Chun. as a very generalized example:

BJJ's intention is to stay on the ground, gain control over opponent with submission or breaking joint, choke, etc..
WC/WT would be more along the lines of escaping the joint lock, choke, submission, etc. and appling WC/WT deflection and striking asap as the practitioner gets off the ground quickly.
Two totally different trains of thought in combat with dealing with a ground fighting situation.

So, how would one use WC/WT concepts to apply BJJ technique? This is the question, no? How would BJJ enhance one's WC/WT defense to make the practitioner more "well rounded of a fighter?" How does BJJ techniques fit and mesh in with WC/WT concepts and fighting approach in application? (to get back to the origional purpose of the thread, and I apologize dungeonworks for deviated so far from it. I understand now how frustrating that is) :)

Now, my Sifu and I have done this to some extent at a BJJ seminar a couple of years back.
as ex.
Our student with one arm attended the seminar and we had to augment the techniques to fit his needs. And in so doing, we inadvertanly applied WC/WT concepts into the BJJ techniques at the seminar. (as respectfully as possible given the situation and needs of our student.)

One technique I'll focus on because it gets really involved to write this up and for others to read it.

1. BJJ armbar on the ground where opponent is on their back and you place your legs across their chest and waist to take both your hands to grab their arm and lock out an armbar with their arm between your legs.
a. our student only had one arm so this was very difficult for him to secure the opponents arm.
2. what we had him do by augmenting the armbar:
a. we had him get closer to partner, still getting into position with his legs pinning him from rolling over across his partners chest and placing the arm between his legs in BJJ fashion, was the same.
b. instead of using two hands/arms to grab the trapped arm in the traditional fashion, we had our student wrap the partners arm in a tan sau fashion, tucking the partners hand/wrist under his armpit with the arm he did have. Keeping palm up in tan sau position with arm wrapped and clamped under his armpit and side of his body.
c. This did give the partner room to bend his elbow and put the one armed student in a half crunch position. But, in this position with the tan sau changed the nature of the armbar into a very nasty arm lock. The trapped arm being slightly bent allowed our student to apply a twisting/torking effect on the elbow and shoulder of the opponent in a very painful and devastating fashion.
d. Now a person doing this same techniuqe would still have one hand free to punch and deflect. (holding more true to WC/WT theory and concepts of fighting.) And give the applicant more ability to adapt to the opponent's changing of position.
c. From this "half-crunch" position with the arm locked with the tan sau, we had the student perform a situp motion while moving the tan sau forward as he got up from the ground, pointing the tan sau toward the opponent's head/centerline as he got up. (we had to do this very slow and allow his partner to be released for him to get up completely, although he still had control of the arm as he got up) As he got up his knees planted to the partners ribs/stomach, and neck. He used the opponent to "help" him get up so to speak.
This movement in completion, done as one continous and flowing motion will break the elbow and dislocate the shoulder as you get up with knees digging into injured opponent.
(Man, I wish so that we had video of this! Remind me and I'll see if we can simulate it in video this weekend.)

Now, this is what I would think of when asked to apply WC/WT concepts to something like BJJ. But, I would have never in my life done it if it wasn't for our one armed student participating in a BJJ seminar with us. And really the point being from this experiment is that the technique completely stopped being almost anything akin to BJJ. Since he could not execute the technique at all, Sifu ended up making up technique on the fly using WC/WT concepts to make the BJJ technique workable for the student.
And honestly, if anything, it was far closer to the Goshin Ju-Jitsu technique I used to do. (only difference is we didn't put our legs on the person and lay on our back, we dug the knees into their ribs and neck, having them laying on their side. Sitting in a crouch position on the opponent, and put both hands in a "prayer" postition and twisted the elbow and shoulder in the same "tan sau" fashion.)
All this brought alot of attention to the three of us, and the teacher came to ask questions and was very interested in what we were doing. It was alot of fun, and we all learned alot, but this isn't something I would do much since straight WC/WT covers this. I found that out that day and never knew (I'd been studing for 2 years at that point) still thinking I'd have to supplement my WC/WT with my JJJ. Those thoughts ended in that seminar.
Ack! sorry so long. This is really difficult to describe play by play in text. And is why I use only this type of BJJ armbar as example, simply because I'm more familiar with that technique from BJJ and can explain it best in text. I hope this helps.

[MJS]

MJS you seem to be very agitated, this is why I apologized for coming off so strong and hard. But, sense my apology is not being accepted I will just have to continue and try to be more diplomatic.

Nope, not agitated at all.



Although with this very topic that is very hard for me and I'll tell you why.
This is a topic started to promote the idea that Wing Chun needs BJJ and that it would help a Wing Chun practitioner.
I find this horribly false, and that it infringes on my art. To say that a Wing Chun practitioner needs another art to make it well balanced to me is insulting to my art. Especially BJJ of all styles.
I don't like BJJ because it is not a good art. This is my opinion. That it is not a good art for one that trains MA with the goal of realistic self defense mainly Wing Chun.
I feel that BJJ would lessen and diminish the art of Wing Chun, keeping people from continuing to further their understanding and training in the advanced concepts and techniques of Wing Chun. I.e. - instead of learning to kick and hit an opponent from a "grappling" distance, people would resort to BJJ. Thus, losing that range of WT/WC possibly forever. This does anger me, and I don't want people to waterdown their WC/WT to suit students that just don't want to fully train the art.

Question for you. If I, or someone else, suggested Judo or Sambo instead of BJJ, would you like those arts more? Or would you still dislike them? Keep in mind, that while we always try to dictate how things go, there are times when that may not always work. For myself, I like to train in all of the fight ranges....punching, kicking, the clinch and the ground. When you land on the ground, you need to be able to adapt, due to the fact that your standup material may not always work.


As for my husband and his experiences. I've shared some of them here to help support and give examples to what I've been saying. And yes, he's the best Wing Chun practitioner I've ever met, my teacher, my friend, and my husband. If you have a problem with that, then that has nothing to do with me. That's all you.

Seriously, I don't have a problem with that. IMO though, it seems you're a bit blinded to other things, but oh well.


He is training for cage fights, this takes time and we're not going to rush his training to prove anything to you. This costs money that we have to plan, save, and be careful when we spend it, and we're not going to put our family through finiancial hardship just to speed things up for you or anyone.
When his conditioning is up, when his training is done, when we have the money to register him, and when we get a fight scheduled (a real one, from a real promoter that isn't going to jerk us around) then you shall have your beloved video.

I'll be waiting. :)


Again, I'm not in a rush because I know it won't matter to the nay sayers. You'll all have the excuses you need, ex. he didn't fight anyone any GOOD, the guy he happened to get on a fight card with wasn't actually a Gracie BJJ guy, hubbie's too big and strong for the guy in the cage against, whatever. I'm sure they'll be more I can't even think of. But, you'll have you video.

IIRC, people have said that the guys Royce fought in the UFC were hand picked by his brother, to make him look good. I'm simply saying that with all your talk about the mighty WC, I just hope that the grappler that your hubby fights, is good.


I'm sorry if I thought we had that last fight, but it's out of my control if the promoter is a scumbag. The only thing we can do is move on and find someone else. I don't know alot about this industry and have had a bit of a hard time finding out the information I needed for our area, hey, I'm new to this.

But, we're NOT new to WT/WC and we're NOT new to defending against BJJ.
So, again, I find that I may have come off strong again, but am finding that maybe I'm just strong in my conviction of the value of my art. So be it.

Hey, I'm strong about Kenpo as well, but I am not so blinded to the faults.

[MJS]

Trolling is not my intention. Speaking honestly and being forthright about my true thoughs on these threads is. If people cannot handle being disagreed with is that 'trolling'?
Sometimes you cannot be as diplomatic as you'd like when discussing topics such as this. That doesn't mean I'm wanting to be hurtful and rude to people. But, many comments made directed exactly at me and my husband have not been made with diplomacy either. So, basically, your saying that others can trash my ideas, statements, misquote me, and make fun of my art, husband and self and I'm not allowed to make a comment or stand up for myself and my art?
I see.
It's okay for others to make fun of Wing Chun, and talk down about it and it's teachers, it's practicality and such but it's not okay for me to disagree or dispute?
I do think alot of people need somone to stop being so meek and tiptoing around these issues and be real to change their thinking or give them another way to percieve things.
It is not my intention to "troll". In my opinion I see other "trolls" than myself, but have chosen to let it slide.

Disagreeing ones points is one thing. A troll is defined as someone who comes to a forum with the sole intention of causing problems. Feel free though, to report any posts that seem to be in violation of the forum rules. The mods will review them and take any action necessary.

[MJS]

I read your statement...you just validated what I said...You said you never say you kicked the arse of everyone you sparred. Thats something others say....

Well she is not saying she never been taking down or beat everyone she sparred...She is saying that her husband is the greatest...She falls under the other say those things not me...Her Husband never came on her bragging how he defeat all of us on here...

She thinks the greatest about her husband...She should...As should your wives...But to tell her not to think highly of her husband is just absord...Thats her man...


Of course she thinks there no one better its her husband...Give her a break in that respect.

Of course, if you reall read my post, you'd notice that I mentioned no specific person. Does her husband need her for a spokesperson? Come on its like the BJJ nutriders who worship the ground that Royce walks on. Same thing here. You have guys who think that BJJ, Royce and every other Gracie is the bomb, the best thing ever. So thats what we have here....someone so starry eyed, running around saying WC is the best, that her husband is a badass, etc.

As for my wife...no she does not run around and hype up Kenpo, Arnis or BJJ. She does not tell people that I'm Superman. Last time I checked, the martial arts didn't turn people into unbeatable fighting machines. Boxers get beat, MMA guys get beat, anyone is capable of getting beat.

Its all in the wording. I'm sorry if you can't see it.

[Steve]

Typing from a phone so this will be short. First, it's interesting that you bring up one arm. My introduction to grappling was from a guy whose left arm was completely paralyzed. He had it, but it just kind of flopped around. He did just fine. As we all do, he found a way to adapt solid technique to his unique set of skills and abilities.

Regarding the rest, I'll wait until I have the chance to read this more carefully. My first impression is just to remind you that in BJJ there are lots of "right" ways to peform a technique. It's a very practical, pragmatic art. For example, a correctly applied armbar from the top is one in which the hips are in tight, used as the fulcrum, and the strength of the body is focused against the much weaker strength of the opponent's arm. Thumb up to ensure the proper angle against the joint. Knees locked together, and heels pulled back to prevent escape. The finish is somewhat static, but the rest is very fluid.

[Si-Je]

Of course, if you reall read my post, you'd notice that I mentioned no specific person. Does her husband need her for a spokesperson? Come on its like the BJJ nutriders who worship the ground that Royce walks on. Same thing here. You have guys who think that BJJ, Royce and every other Gracie is the bomb, the best thing ever. So thats what we have here....someone so starry eyed, running around saying WC is the best, that her husband is a badass, etc.

As for my wife...no she does not run around and hype up Kenpo, Arnis or BJJ. She does not tell people that I'm Superman. Last time I checked, the martial arts didn't turn people into unbeatable fighting machines. Boxers get beat, MMA guys get beat, anyone is capable of getting beat.

Its all in the wording. I'm sorry if you can't see it.

Okay that's enough. I'm getting tired of this disrespect to me and my husband. I will amend my wording for all who may be confused.
I refer to my husband's experience in posts because he IS my Sifu. I give examples of what he has done as anyone here has described the exploits and exerience of their Sifu's.

A question, does your wife teach these styles with you? Is she your student as well? Are you partners in promotion for a school that you are running?
This is a diffent kind of relationship I have with my husband and it is dual. He's my teacher and I love him as a teacher and as my husband. If some have a problem with that relationship then it is their own affair.

My SIFU has competed in San Shou and is 7-1 (I've posted this a couple of times. Does this denote that I've claimed he is "undefeated?" I would think not.), he's competed in TaiJi Legacy in continous sparring and has NOT lost in that category. My SIFU has competed in numerous Karate tournaments in continious sparring and has NOT lost those competitions once. My SIFU has a very good track record of competing with 100% WC/WT in these competitions and is going to add the cage to that list.
My SIFU is a 4th degree MCMAP instructor for the USMC and has used his WT training many times in combat. My SIFU was one of the major instructors that helped to design MCMAP into the art it is today. My SIFU has black belt ranking in Judo, Kempo Karate, and Kendo.
My SIFU has trained under two masters reaching Level 5 technician under BOTH in Wing Chun and Wing Tsun. My SIFU knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT. My SIFU knows butterfly swords, dragon pole, mook jong, escrima, anti-grappling, knife fighting and defense (from USMC) whereas some SIFU's and stylists do not know the entire system of WC/WT.
I am pround of my SIFU, that is why I am his student in the first place, reguardless of the fact that he's my husband as well. If his art was worthless, I'd train elsewhere.
I came on here oringionally and didn't name him as my SIFU only to keep from being presumptous in reguards to his official ranking. He is unaffiliated with any master and has not been "awarded" the title of Sifu, so I did not want to refer to him as a Sifu until we could establish the officiality of that title. But, as it seems, me referring to him as "hubbie" has diminished and disrespected his skill, knowledge, and qualifications as a teacher I will then promote him to status of "Sifu" as a student who seeks his knowledge. Thus, I don't have to speak for my SIFU and if I do, then he knows about what I say and stands by it as my husband as well. I don't post things on here he doesn't agree with or things he doesn't teach me. As well as being him being my Sifu, husband, and I his assistant teacher, I have been his business partner in every aspect of running the school, teaching, marketing, and finance.
If this doesn't clarify the relationship I have with my SIFU and husband more, then I feel it's a total lost cause. But, being insulting and condecending to me, my sifu and husband is not necessary or admirable.

On a side note: He has gotten wind of a "challenge match" from a 5+ year BJJ stylist possibly coming to our humble recreation center tomorrow. This we hope will actually happen (as often they never show when it comes down to it, just talk) and I will definately get video for you all, which is why I profess his 'awesomeness' in the hopes of such a thing happening. If only because so many people demand video proof and one' word isn't enough.
He's waited 4 years (since I've know him) for such an opportunity to be able to be made public.
By the way, does anyone know where I might find a template on designing a waiver of responsibility if one is hurt in sparring, at class, or in a "challenge match"?

[MJS]

Well, what approaches to ground fighting and concepts of BJJ is similar to Wing Chun principles and concepts in defense? This is where I'm unclear on how they would be similar to one another.
I can see maybe that when a grappler shoots in this could be akin to the WC/WT addage of "shortest distance between two points" in that a grappler comes straight into attack an opponent's foundation in a takedown.
But, once your there how would BJJ be close to WC/WT concept in the actual take down?
i.e. is shooting into the legs or hips head first the most effecient and the most minimal use of brute strength to execute a takedown?
How would you apply WC/WT concept to achieve maximum effeciency in this common and popular technique of BJJ? And wouldn't you expose yourself to being kicked, kneed or be setup to expose your neck and head to being punched, kicked, etc.? Is this technique allowing you to protect your centerline, or keep your centerline on your oponent so you have all your "weapons" at your quick and easy disposal to adapt, respond, and defend against the opponent's counter, parry, or defense?
These are things I think of when thinking of adding BJJ technique to a Wing Chun base of understanding. I'm just not quite seeing how the two would be remotely similar on many levels, and see many conflicts in applying principles of WC/WT while trying to execute BJJ technique.
Plus, like I said, there is a whole range of techniques covered in WC/WT in this very range. I'd just be sad to see those techniques miminized and forgotten because one would replace it with BJJ.
Also, I don't think anyone is saying that a WC/WT person could never be taken to the ground, or that we train with the mindset that that would never happen. I think just about every WC/WT practitioner is aware of that possibility and we generally train to avoid the takedown, be as rooted as possible, while staying relaxed so if the takedown does come we can adapt and respond properly to the energy and inertia of the opponent as quickly as possible. Just because it's not the desire or goal of a WC/WT practitioner to go to the ground on purpose or as a first line of defense, or that we wish to get off the ground asap, doesn't mean WC/WT concepts and theory doesn't cover these situations.
What my Sifu and I have seen is that many WC/WT schools that even teach ground fighting only do so much later in a students training (i.e. 2-3 years later) This is something my teacher has decided to change, and start basic training in anti-grappling in Grade 1 to match what the student is learning standing with same same technique on the ground. This so the student has at least a basic knowledge to defend against this form of popular attack in the beginning to help them feel more secure and well rounded.

Let me see if I can help with this. I'll use myself as an example, but I'll try to follow along with what you're asking about WC.

When the fight is still in the punching and kicking range, I use my Kenpo. Once a grab, such as a bearhug happens or a shoot happens, I still do my best to use the Kenpo concepts, as I said in another post, but I do click into BJJ mode. Now, lets assume that I was not quick enough in my defense, and I land on the ground. The grappler is now either going to get in my guard, try to mount or sidemount me. Can I use some Kenpo? Sure, but I will be limited as to what I can do, for a number of reasons, the main one being that I'm now on the ground and probably won't have the same movement, if I were standing.

However, I can defend myself with the BJJ training. I'm not going to spend long periods of time looking for a submission, instead, I'm going to look for an escape or a position that is better for me. Of course, if the sub. presents itself, I'll take it. :)

Once I get to a better position, I can continue to fight from the ground or stand up or better yet, try to get the hell out of there. :)

Also keep in mind, that if we look back to the early UFCs, we'll see strikers trying hard to counter the shoot or clinch, however, we see them get taken down anyways. Watch a few clips of Royce. You'll notice him doing what seems like a front kick. This is not meant to have any serious effect on the person, instead he's using it to guage his distance. Watch the reaction of the other person. They usually are moving back, trying to avoid this kick. However, by that time, its usually too late, the grappler clinches, and is pulled down. Here are some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmZmrIFvf4I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ct2otCJcJ8

I will say again, as I've said many times in the past...I feel that all arts have something to offer. I dont think that someone should drop their base art and take up the flavor of the month. I'm simply saying that arts that specialize in something, should be looked at. If someone does WC, and they understand how a grappler is going to take them down, then they can make their WC defense that much better, just like I do with my Kenpo. :)

[MJS]

Okay that's enough. I'm getting tired of this disrespect to me and my husband.

Of course, the same could be said about your hatefest for BJJ.



I will amend my wording for all who may be confused.
I refer to my husband's experience in posts because he IS my Sifu. I give examples of what he has done as anyone here has described the exploits and exerience of their Sifu's.

Ok.


A question, does your wife teach these styles with you? Is she your student as well? Are you partners in promotion for a school that you are running?
This is a diffent kind of relationship I have with my husband and it is dual. He's my teacher and I love him as a teacher and as my husband. If some have a problem with that relationship then it is their own affair.

No, my wife does not train. She does support me with whatever training I do though. She knew, when we first met, that the arts were something I had been doing for a long time, long before she came into the picture. She supports that, accepts that, and does not prevent me from training.


My SIFU has competed in San Shou and is 7-1 (I've posted this a couple of times. Does this denote that I've claimed he is "undefeated?" I would think not.), he's competed in TaiJi Legacy in continous sparring and has NOT lost in that category. My SIFU has competed in numerous Karate tournaments in continious sparring and has NOT lost those competitions once. My SIFU has a very good track record of competing with 100% WC/WT in these competitions and is going to add the cage to that list.
My SIFU is a 4th degree MCMAP instructor for the USMC and has used his WT training many times in combat. My SIFU was one of the major instructors that helped to design MCMAP into the art it is today. My SIFU has black belt ranking in Judo, Kempo Karate, and Kendo.
My SIFU has trained under two masters reaching Level 5 technician under BOTH in Wing Chun and Wing Tsun. My SIFU knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT. My SIFU knows butterfly swords, dragon pole, mook jong, escrima, anti-grappling, knife fighting and defense (from USMC) whereas some SIFU's and stylists do not know the entire system of WC/WT.
I am pround of my SIFU, that is why I am his student in the first place, reguardless of the fact that he's my husband as well. If his art was worthless, I'd train elsewhere.
I came on here oringionally and didn't name him as my SIFU only to keep from being presumptous in reguards to his official ranking. He is unaffiliated with any master and has not been "awarded" the title of Sifu, so I did not want to refer to him as a Sifu until we could establish the officiality of that title. But, as it seems, me referring to him as "hubbie" has diminished and disrespected his skill, knowledge, and qualifications as a teacher I will then promote him to status of "Sifu" as a student who seeks his knowledge. Thus, I don't have to speak for my SIFU and if I do, then he knows about what I say and stands by it as my husband as well. I don't post things on here he doesn't agree with or things he doesn't teach me. As well as being him being my Sifu, husband, and I his assistant teacher, I have been his business partner in every aspect of running the school, teaching, marketing, and finance.
If this doesn't clarify the relationship I have with my SIFU and husband more, then I feel it's a total lost cause. But, being insulting and condecending to me, my sifu and husband is not necessary or admirable.

Ok.


On a side note: He has gotten wind of a "challenge match" from a 5+ year BJJ stylist possibly coming to our humble recreation center tomorrow. This we hope will actually happen (as often they never show when it comes down to it, just talk) and I will definately get video for you all, which is why I profess his 'awesomeness' in the hopes of such a thing happening. If only because so many people demand video proof and one' word isn't enough.
He's waited 4 years (since I've know him) for such an opportunity to be able to be made public.
By the way, does anyone know where I might find a template on designing a waiver of responsibility if one is hurt in sparring, at class, or in a "challenge match"?

Ok. Hopefully this'll happen and yes, I'm sure many would love to see video of it.

[Si-Je]

Of course, the same could be said about your hatefest for BJJ.


BJJ is a style not a human being. We are done. Conversation is closed. I've made myself very clear, and any further discussion is fruitless and designed only to condesend and be disrespectful. Good day

[MJS]

BJJ is a style not a human being. We are done. Conversation is closed. I've made myself very clear, and any further discussion is fruitless and designed only to condesend and be disrespectful. Good day

You're right, it is an art, not a person. However, there are people, such as myself and Steve, who train in it, so in a way, you are taking a shot at the art and anyone who trains in it.

[Si-Je]

You're right, it is an art, not a person. However, there are people, such as myself and Steve, who train in it, so in a way, you are taking a shot at the art and anyone who trains in it.

To quote my last post on translating WC/WT principles to BJJ and what happens when that is done.

One technique I'll focus on because it gets really involved to write this up and for others to read it.

1. BJJ armbar on the ground where opponent is on their back and you place your legs across their chest and waist to take both your hands to grab their arm and lock out an armbar with their arm between your legs.
a. our student only had one arm so this was very difficult for him to secure the opponents arm.
2. what we had him do by augmenting the armbar:
a. we had him get closer to partner, still getting into position with his legs pinning him from rolling over across his partners chest and placing the arm between his legs in BJJ fashion, was the same.
b. instead of using two hands/arms to grab the trapped arm in the traditional fashion, we had our student wrap the partners arm in a tan sau fashion, tucking the partners hand/wrist under his armpit with the arm he did have. Keeping palm up in tan sau position with arm wrapped and clamped under his armpit and side of his body.
c. This did give the partner room to bend his elbow and put the one armed student in a half crunch position. But, in this position with the tan sau changed the nature of the armbar into a very nasty arm lock. The trapped arm being slightly bent allowed our student to apply a twisting/torking effect on the elbow and shoulder of the opponent in a very painful and devastating fashion.
d. Now a person doing this same techniuqe would still have one hand free to punch and deflect. (holding more true to WC/WT theory and concepts of fighting.) And give the applicant more ability to adapt to the opponent's changing of position.
c. From this "half-crunch" position with the arm locked with the tan sau, we had the student perform a situp motion while moving the tan sau forward as he got up from the ground, pointing the tan sau toward the opponent's head/centerline as he got up. (we had to do this very slow and allow his partner to be released for him to get up completely, although he still had control of the arm as he got up) As he got up his knees planted to the partners ribs/stomach, and neck. He used the opponent to "help" him get up so to speak.
This movement in completion, done as one continous and flowing motion will break the elbow and dislocate the shoulder as you get up with knees digging into injured opponent.
(Man, I wish so that we had video of this! Remind me and I'll see if we can simulate it in video this weekend.)

Now, this is what I would think of when asked to apply WC/WT concepts to something like BJJ. But, I would have never in my life done it if it wasn't for our one armed student participating in a BJJ seminar with us. And really the point being from this experiment is that the technique completely stopped being almost anything akin to BJJ. Since he could not execute the technique at all, Sifu ended up making up technique on the fly using WC/WT concepts to make the BJJ technique workable for the student.
And honestly, if anything, it was far closer to the Goshin Ju-Jitsu technique I used to do. (only difference is we didn't put our legs on the person and lay on our back, we dug the knees into their ribs and neck, having them laying on their side. Sitting in a crouch position on the opponent, and put both hands in a "prayer" postition and twisted the elbow and shoulder in the same "tan sau" fashion.)
All this brought alot of attention to the three of us, and the teacher came to ask questions and was very interested in what we were doing. It was alot of fun, and we all learned alot, but this isn't something I would do much since straight WC/WT covers this. I found that out that day and never knew (I'd been studing for 2 years at that point) still thinking I'd have to supplement my WC/WT with my JJJ. Those thoughts ended in that seminar.
Ack! sorry so long. This is really difficult to describe play by play in text. And is why I use only this type of BJJ armbar as example, simply because I'm more familiar with that technique from BJJ and can explain it best in text. I hope this helps.

[seasoned]

Let me see if I can help with this. I'll use myself as an example, but I'll try to follow along with what you're asking about WC.

When the fight is still in the punching and kicking range, I use my Kenpo. Once a grab, such as a bearhug happens or a shoot happens, I still do my best to use the Kenpo concepts, as I said in another post, but I do click into BJJ mode. Now, lets assume that I was not quick enough in my defense, and I land on the ground. The grappler is now either going to get in my guard, try to mount or sidemount me. Can I use some Kenpo? Sure, but I will be limited as to what I can do, for a number of reasons, the main one being that I'm now on the ground and probably won't have the same movement, if I were standing.

However, I can defend myself with the BJJ training. I'm not going to spend long periods of time looking for a submission, instead, I'm going to look for an escape or a position that is better for me. Of course, if the sub. presents itself, I'll take it. :)

Once I get to a better position, I can continue to fight from the ground or stand up or better yet, try to get the hell out of there. :)

Also keep in mind, that if we look back to the early UFCs, we'll see strikers trying hard to counter the shoot or clinch, however, we see them get taken down anyways. Watch a few clips of Royce. You'll notice him doing what seems like a front kick. This is not meant to have any serious effect on the person, instead he's using it to guage his distance. Watch the reaction of the other person. They usually are moving back, trying to avoid this kick. However, by that time, its usually too late, the grappler clinches, and is pulled down. Here are some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmZmrIFvf4I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ct2otCJcJ8

I will say again, as I've said many times in the past...I feel that all arts have something to offer. I dont think that someone should drop their base art and take up the flavor of the month. I'm simply saying that arts that specialize in something, should be looked at. If someone does WC, and they understand how a grappler is going to take them down, then they can make their WC defense that much better, just like I do with my Kenpo. :)
Someone please, help me out hear. Maybe I have been posting in this thread for all the wrong reasons. After looking at the you tube film, it was more of a contest then what I thought it was going to be. Not what I thought we were posting about. I thought it would be knock down drag out. There were rules in these matches that would favor one over the other. The boxer had one gloved hand, bad mistake, and in most other matches I did not see some of the principles I thought could change the outcome. We are talking rules here and that is where I made my mistake. We all spent over 140 posts hashing out who’s art was better and wasted numerous hours of typing. I would never put my self in a situation where my art and my reputation were on the line but yet I could not use all of my techniques, it is just crazy. Were these matches geared toward seeing which art was better, or just to see who could get the other person to submit. If I am wrong. Please, let me know, but I think I would have sunk my teeth into any part of his body I could, and there were many chances, and hung on for dear life. This is what bothers me about this whole cage thing, people look at this and determine that any form of punch, kick or strike is inferior. Have I read this whole theard wrong??

[Si-Je]

Well, I guess the point of the two video's is to demonstrate how a striker needs BJJ to defend against BJJ. Fighting fire with fire?
I prefer water for my fire fight. :)
Can anyone see the similarities of Wing Chun principles, concepts and techniques in the videos displayed?
I'm really missing it.

I can understand a desire to be able to defend against this type of attack, but I'm not convinced that the best way for a WC/WT practitioner would be to learn how to fight on the ground exactly like this. Using the same techniques on a fighter that knows the very techniques your trying to use, and that most likely is better at them than a student that is only taking the art of BJJ as a supplement. Thus, they may just best you with BJJ anyways simply because they may train it exclusively, and you don't. (just a thought)

The need to be able to defend against this kind of attack is necessary for any fighter or self-defense purpose. But, how is this done with BJJ mixed with WC/WT techniques and concepts? I've asked this alot, because I truely don't know.

[seasoned]

:asian:
157 threads, and now, maybe this can all come to an end. I would have hoped that by now somebody, beside myself, could see that this whole thing is a sport art versus a traditional self defense art. They don’t mix. I feel in the spirit of budo that this whole thing could have been rectified, so as to preserve the integrate of all involved. When you mix 2 or 3 of any art, it becomes MMA. Anybody that continues after this post has not trained long enough to understand the difference. There are so many others subjects we could discuss that would be so much more beneficial. Lets give it a shot. J :asian:

[Mystic Wolf]

Wing Chun vs BJJ:jediduel::deadhorse:redeme:

[Yoshiyahu]

My Dear friend I totally understand you. In the Street Striking Arts rule...In the Cage where the rules are geared more towards grapplers Striking Arts suck...lol...

You can bite in the cage...Sorry thats not a rule...Although biting may be a form of submission....


Also the reason why they wear gloves now...is because those bareknuckle boxers were killing the grapplers...So to even it out...We now have gloves and weight divisons.


There is nothing wrong with Wrestling...There is nothing wrong with Ground fighting...Its apart of fighting and street fighting...There is a time and place to go to the ground...There is a time an place when not too...



Like for instance I never heard a grappler say he would shoot for the legs of someone carrying a butcher knife...Its just stupid..can you say stab in the back...I bet you the grappler will start throwing some kicks and punches then trying to knock the knife holders block off...


But I feel your frustation...But some people can not comprehend the finer points of Striking and Standing Combat. Ground fighting comes easier to them...Now do not take my words to mean they are unintelliegent...on the contrary thier minds are open up in a different way...They will be able to react and comprehend things on the ground faster than I probably could...Beause thats where their passion is...Where I could understand the ins and outs of using leverage sensitivity and structure while standing...

Just realize these people who promote BJJ love it more than life it self...To them it is the holy Grail...Now they are open to striking thats why the cross train western boxing and muay thai...The have to get a standing game...BJJ is their main art but they are missing the strikes...So they have to add strikes to formulate a strategy to distract, shoot, take down, submit.

This is my opinion i hope no one is offended by it...

Shabbat Shalowm....


Someone please, help me out hear. Maybe I have been posting in this thread for all the wrong reasons. After looking at the you tube film, it was more of a contest then what I thought it was going to be. Not what I thought we were posting about. I thought it would be knock down drag out. There were rules in these matches that would favor one over the other. The boxer had one gloved hand, bad mistake, and in most other matches I did not see some of the principles I thought could change the outcome. We are talking rules here and that is where I made my mistake. We all spent over 140 posts hashing out who’s art was better and wasted numerous hours of typing. I would never put my self in a situation where my art and my reputation were on the line but yet I could not use all of my techniques, it is just crazy. Were these matches geared toward seeing which art was better, or just to see who could get the other person to submit. If I am wrong. Please, let me know, but I think I would have sunk my teeth into any part of his body I could, and there were many chances, and hung on for dear life. This is what bothers me about this whole cage thing, people look at this and determine that any form of punch, kick or strike is inferior. Have I read this whole theard wrong??

[Yoshiyahu]

No mystic wolf thats not accurate analogy of Wing Chun VS BJJ

Try this on for size!!!



Wing Chun:wuguns::biggun:BJJ

The BJJ Lover(:troll:)

I am just Joking I love all you guys...lol...


Keep the Forum Posistive...




Wing Chun vs BJJ:jediduel::deadhorse:redeme:

[Steve]

Okay. I officially give up.

Edit: Actually. I'll take one more stab. A challenge to si-je, yoshi and anyone else who cares to give it a stab. I challenge you guys to post one thing that BJJ has in common with wing chun. Something legitimate. Rather than reflexively looking to argue. Rather than immediately trying to think of a way to refute or rebut mine or anyone else's last post, try instead to post something positive. In the spirit of the thread, try to think outside your current world view. If it helps, substitute Judo newaza instead of BJJ. I am sure that there is at least one thing.

[MJS]

Sigh...let me try again. The things that are mentioned, ie: biting, eye gouging, etc. are not limited to WC. Those are tools that I too, would use. :) I've repeatedly stated that any grappling art could be studied, not just BJJ, and I've also asked for thoughts on other grappling arts, yet never got an answer.

I've also stated that when I do a Kenpo takedown/tackle defense, it still looks like Kenpo. I stated that I train the defense against a grappler and make slight, subtle adjustments, but again, the defense still looks like Kenpo.

I'm simply saying to keep the WC defense. Don't change it to look like BJJ. Do what I do with mine. Get with a grappler, test your defense against their mount position, side control, takedowns, etc. If pure WC works, great. If not, then you need to go back to the drawing board and figure out why.

[MJS]

Someone please, help me out hear. Maybe I have been posting in this thread for all the wrong reasons. After looking at the you tube film, it was more of a contest then what I thought it was going to be. Not what I thought we were posting about. I thought it would be knock down drag out. There were rules in these matches that would favor one over the other. The boxer had one gloved hand, bad mistake, and in most other matches I did not see some of the principles I thought could change the outcome. We are talking rules here and that is where I made my mistake. We all spent over 140 posts hashing out who’s art was better and wasted numerous hours of typing. I would never put my self in a situation where my art and my reputation were on the line but yet I could not use all of my techniques, it is just crazy. Were these matches geared toward seeing which art was better, or just to see who could get the other person to submit. If I am wrong. Please, let me know, but I think I would have sunk my teeth into any part of his body I could, and there were many chances, and hung on for dear life. This is what bothers me about this whole cage thing, people look at this and determine that any form of punch, kick or strike is inferior. Have I read this whole theard wrong??


Guess you missed the point. I was showing how easy it was, despite the other guys striking, for the grappler to take him down. Of course, if you had a weapon, if you bit, hit the eyes and throat, etc. things may be different. However, while those are important tools, I feel that you should also have a plan B, in the event you are not in a position to bite or hit the eyes.

[seasoned]

Okay. I officially give up.

Edit: Actually. I'll take one more stab. A challenge to si-je, yoshi and anyone else who cares to give it a stab. I challenge you guys to post one thing that BJJ has in common with wing chun. Something legitimate. Rather than reflexively looking to argue. Rather than immediately trying to think of a way to refute or rebut mine or anyone else's last post, try instead to post something positive. In the spirit of the thread, try to think outside your current world view. If it helps, substitute Judo newaza instead of BJJ. I am sure that there is at least one thing.



Tenacity in posting.

[jarrod]

Guess you missed the point. I was showing how easy it was, despite the other guys striking, for the grappler to take him down. Of course, if you had a weapon, if you bit, hit the eyes and throat, etc. things may be different. However, while those are important tools, I feel that you should also have a plan B, in the event you are not in a position to bite or hit the eyes.


mjs, you should know by now that grapplers are always alone, unarmed, toothless, & have giant bulging eyeballs that are much more difficult to protect than the average human being's. also our groins are evidently enormous targets :D

*reverts to lurking*

jf

[mook jong man]

Okay. I officially give up.

Edit: Actually. I'll take one more stab. A challenge to si-je, yoshi and anyone else who cares to give it a stab. I challenge you guys to post one thing that BJJ has in common with wing chun. Something legitimate. Rather than reflexively looking to argue. Rather than immediately trying to think of a way to refute or rebut mine or anyone else's last post, try instead to post something positive. In the spirit of the thread, try to think outside your current world view. If it helps, substitute Judo newaza instead of BJJ. I am sure that there is at least one thing.

I'll have a crack , I didn't do BJJ so I can't speak for that but I did train with Pancrase guys and what I found was that I started to develop a sensitivity on the ground when in body to body contact mostly feeling with my chest and legs.

My arm sensitivity and hand speed from Chi Sau came in handy when I was mounted and trying to get an overhook or underhook so I could bridge and roll the guy .

It also helped when I had him mounted I could thwart his attempts to overhook or underhook my arm . So in closing I would say Wing Chun and groundfighting both develop a type of sensitivity that is suited for their specific purposes .

[dungeonworks]

Well, since I was the one that started all this, I will restate my intentions:



What parts of Wing Chun and Brazillian JJ would mesh well together?
Who's doing it, and how are your results thus far?


It was never meant to say which is better, although it drifted into that. It was never meant to show one up over the other, rather see what the addition of the BJJ ground game, which I feel is one of the very best tried and proven styles around with plenty of video proof from the past and modern competition. I love Wing Chun and simply was looking at a way I think could give me "value added" benefits from cross training without deviating too far from my Wing Chun. I already know I can go from Koei-Kan to sub. wrestling with no issues...but Koei-Kan is my base style. As I learn Wing Chun, I see some things in common between the two arts. Efficient movement, avoiding force with force, sticking...ect.

[Hand Sword]

Would it be a fair assessment for all sides arguing to agree to a simple idea-IMHO? Consider the fact that since the 1st UFC some real attention to the separate worlds of grappling and stand up has be given. Also, whether any truly want to admit to it or not, that event got all sides thinking and addressing (re-addressing?) the issue being debated. And since this is the case would it be fair to say that both sides got a jump and started a sort of evolutionary process? And since that process is still ongoing, would it also be fair to say that no definite answer could be given yet? Especially because the results are on the individual level, and therefore subjective?

I dunno, just a thought I had. Sorry to interrupt dungeonworks.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I feel any type of grappling can be adopted and modified to fit any art.

I find being in someones guard to be similar to push hands and silk reeling found in Tai chi chuan because that is what I used in a BJJ person guard.

I don't see anything wrong with a person wanting to merge BJJ and Wing chun if they feel they can merge it into something they feel will allow them to have a better access to a wider range of an arsenal.

In the end a person makes the art they train in their own. Meaning they adapt,modify,add or subtract according to their ideas,theories,body and experience. If we do not remain fluid in our ideas and in our minds we will become stiff and unable to bend or move freely in time of action.

[dungeonworks]

...I dunno, just a thought I had. Sorry to interrupt dungeonworks.

Don't be. Ain't like I never hijack or go off topic. :angel:

I like the whole enchilada of the debate, including where the conversation goes, even if adrift from the topic. I was just stating what I was looking for out of this thread is all.

[Mystic Wolf]

:deadhorse
Lets just agree to disagree.

[Yoshiyahu]

Personally I love Judo moves...it has a sorta of flare...as for BJJ having anything in common with WC...


Please lets discuss the principals of WC and compare them to BJJ principals...


But all arts interelate at some point in fair honesty so i am sure you can find one point that interelates with WC. Maybe not structure and formation of basics which makes it so you successfully use you wing chun as second nature. But maybe a technique or two can be compared...


Wow..why is this thread so much more lively than the other WC thread?



Okay. I officially give up.

Edit: Actually. I'll take one more stab. A challenge to si-je, yoshi and anyone else who cares to give it a stab. I challenge you guys to post one thing that BJJ has in common with wing chun. Something legitimate. Rather than reflexively looking to argue. Rather than immediately trying to think of a way to refute or rebut mine or anyone else's last post, try instead to post something positive. In the spirit of the thread, try to think outside your current world view. If it helps, substitute Judo newaza instead of BJJ. I am sure that there is at least one thing.

[Mystic Wolf]

When my students reach Si-Hing or Si-Je, I suggest that they go study another art if they haven't before WC.
The reason is so that they can do random attacks against the students they are instructing. I beleive in keeping the students in WC when training to defend there selves and having them being attacked in different ways,whether standing or on the ground, I keep it WC all the way. And by studing other arts keeps us fresh and knowledgable in WC.

[Yoshiyahu]

I suggest meshing Japanese Juijitsu wing chun not bjj...but thats my opinion!




Well, since I was the one that started all this, I will restate my intentions:



What parts of Wing Chun and Brazillian JJ would mesh well together?
Who's doing it, and how are your results thus far?

It was never meant to say which is better, although it drifted into that. It was never meant to show one up over the other, rather see what the addition of the BJJ ground game, which I feel is one of the very best tried and proven styles around with plenty of video proof from the past and modern competition. I love Wing Chun and simply was looking at a way I think could give me "value added" benefits from cross training without deviating too far from my Wing Chun. I already know I can go from Koei-Kan to sub. wrestling with no issues...but Koei-Kan is my base style. As I learn Wing Chun, I see some things in common between the two arts. Efficient movement, avoiding force with force, sticking...ect.

[Mystic Wolf]

Question for the BJJ readers, please explain how you do sensitvity training?

[Brian R. VanCise]

In BJJ or any grappling system. ie. wrestling, sambo, greco roman, etc. you are always trying to feel what your opponent is doing and counter their movement. Rolling with a partner you develop the skill to feel where they are going and then counter it. The very best bjj practitioners are also in general the most relaxed and smooth. (ie. no tension) This comes from years and years of rolling and being able to pick up where the other person is going via. feeling it through contact. Experience also plays a part in that you can see/feel what they are trying to do. Hope that helps. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Yoshiyahu]

I believe all martial arts tend to use the same strategy...but it is very good...thankyou for sharing...


In BJJ or any grappling system. ie. wrestling, sambo, greco roman, etc. you are always trying to feel what your opponent is doing and counter their movement. Rolling with a partner you develop the skill to feel where they are going and then counter it. The very best bjj practitioners are also in general the most relaxed and smooth. (ie. no tension) This comes from years and years of rolling and being able to pick up where the other person is going via. feeling it through contact. Experience also plays a part in that you can see/feel what they are trying to do. Hope that helps. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[D Dempsey]

In BJJ or any grappling system. ie. wrestling, sambo, greco roman, etc. you are always trying to feel what your opponent is doing and counter their movement. Rolling with a partner you develop the skill to feel where they are going and then counter it. The very best bjj practitioners are also in general the most relaxed and smooth. (ie. no tension) This comes from years and years of rolling and being able to pick up where the other person is going via. feeling it through contact. Experience also plays a part in that you can see/feel what they are trying to do. Hope that helps. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif
This is also why I have seen several blind grapplers competing and winning in higher level events like the Pan-Ams.

[Mystic Wolf]

Now we are getting somewhere.
Ok, in WC we also train to feel where are attacker is going and what his intensions are. We start as soon as they punch.

For example, if the attacker throws a staifgt jab, with our seeking hand, it sences the punch and goes to tan sau then stays with the jab as the attacker retracs the jab we ride up to him following up with chain punches.
The key is also to stay relaxed.

Also on the ground and if someone has us in the mount, the key is to stay relaxed and this is where chi sau comes in very handy. We start to deflect the punches which tells where to displace there energy to buck them off and roll them.

[Steve]

On a phone so please ignore typos. In BJJ, sensitivity is very important as Brian says. On the subject of intent, along the lines of what mystic wolf mntions, there are common triggers. These are movements that we train so often, over and over, so thy at soon as the opening presents itself, we execute the move. For example, in mount my opponent on the bottom extends his arms. There are lots of these.

Also on the topic of snsitivity, if you really want to see it in Bjj, look at full matches as opposed to the finish. Often the submission is the end of the match of fight, but the real mastery was what led up, often ignored on YouTube.

[Mystic Wolf]

We are thinking along the same lines, the difference I see is that we strike.

Alot of WC instructors do not understand that, what they have in wc can be applied on the ground so the feel they have to look else where for a ground art. Then again I have experience in ground fighting which helped me in teaching wc concepts on the ground.

[MJS]

mjs, you should know by now that grapplers are always alone, unarmed, toothless, & have giant bulging eyeballs that are much more difficult to protect than the average human being's. Also our groins are evidently enormous targets :d

*reverts to lurking*

jf

lmao!!

[MJS]

I'll have a crack , I didn't do BJJ so I can't speak for that but I did train with Pancrase guys and what I found was that I started to develop a sensitivity on the ground when in body to body contact mostly feeling with my chest and legs.

My arm sensitivity and hand speed from Chi Sau came in handy when I was mounted and trying to get an overhook or underhook so I could bridge and roll the guy .

It also helped when I had him mounted I could thwart his attempts to overhook or underhook my arm . So in closing I would say Wing Chun and groundfighting both develop a type of sensitivity that is suited for their specific purposes .

Interesting points that you bring up with the sensitivity. From time to time, we'll do some grappling with our eyes closed. This isn't done too fast, but it does create that different feel.

Sounds like theres one thing that is similar. :)

[Steve]

Interesting points that you bring up with the sensitivity. From time to time, we'll do some grappling with our eyes closed. This isn't done too fast, but it does create that different feel.

Sounds like theres one thing that is similar. :)I'll often close my eyes when sparring. Not sure whether it helps or not, but particularly when I'm on the bottom, I think it helps. I can feel changes in weight and more readily identify center of gravity. Glad I'm not the only one. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

During Chi Sau we also have drills where you close your eyes and feel your opponent next strike?



I'll often close my eyes when sparring. Not sure whether it helps or not, but particularly when I'm on the bottom, I think it helps. I can feel changes in weight and more readily identify center of gravity. Glad I'm not the only one. :)

[Mystic Wolf]

Training blind folded hightens the sensitiviy.

[theletch1]

Training blind folded hightens the sensitiviy.
We've trained aikido blindfolded and in the dark before for that very reason. It heightens sensitivity because it blocks out alot of extemporaneous data that serves to "overload" the brain when it's trying to sift through all the information that is coming in. Less overload means that your decisions don't have to go through as much filter before you're able to react to the stimuli.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea, We should possiblity start a thread on how to use your sensitivity...

Once when I was doing some light sparring with Tai Chi student. I close my eyes while remaining in contact. It was so easy to stop his uprooting techinque and still strike him and move him off his foundation...It felt like I was dancing...I stayed stuck to him the entire time along with continous flow. When I open my eyes he a looked on his like total frustration.

Then from that point I open my eyes and attack as usual...




We've trained aikido blindfolded and in the dark before for that very reason. It heightens sensitivity because it blocks out alot of extemporaneous data that serves to "overload" the brain when it's trying to sift through all the information that is coming in. Less overload means that your decisions don't have to go through as much filter before you're able to react to the stimuli.

[Yoshiyahu]

Has anyone seen this movie...where can I find it at?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ioH9RcgdKc

[MJS]

We are thinking along the same lines, the difference I see is that we strike.

Alot of WC instructors do not understand that, what they have in wc can be applied on the ground so the feel they have to look else where for a ground art. Then again I have experience in ground fighting which helped me in teaching wc concepts on the ground.

Without the grappling experience, would you say it would be difficult to teach the WC concepts on the ground or would it make no difference?

[Si-Je]

I'm not speaking for mystic wolf, but I thought that was a really good question. My JJJ background actually made it more difficult to understand the WT ground fighting I kept wanting to "grapple", and that's not what you do with WT groundfighting. Quite the opposite.

But, knowledge in some type of grappling art helps in your ability to teach WT groundfighting to the student. This helps you give them a more realistic feel for what they will come up against, help them feel the locks, takedows, and positions a grappler will most likely use and how to counter these techniques.
Although you can't cover every technique, at least you can teach the student to feel and adjust to more of a realistic grappling technique. I think alot of WT teachers do this to help their students learn the proper application of Wing Chun concepts used on the ground against a wrestler, grappler, or BJJ stylist.
(when hubbie gets home, I'll make sure he checks his MT e-mail to answer better) :)

[dungeonworks]

I'm not speaking for mystic wolf, but I thought that was a really good question. My JJJ background actually made it more difficult to understand the WT ground fighting I kept wanting to "grapple", and that's not what you do with WT groundfighting. Quite the opposite.

But, knowledge in some type of grappling art helps in your ability to teach WT groundfighting to the student. This helps you give them a more realistic feel for what they will come up against, help them feel the locks, takedows, and positions a grappler will most likely use and how to counter these techniques.
Although you can't cover every technique, at least you can teach the student to feel and adjust to more of a realistic grappling technique. I think alot of WT teachers do this to help their students learn the proper application of Wing Chun concepts used on the ground against a wrestler, grappler, or BJJ stylist.
(when hubbie gets home, I'll make sure he checks his MT e-mail to answer better) :)

That right there is why getting familiar with a grappling style is important. I found grappling to be pretty fun and a hellluva workout!

[Mystic Wolf]

Without the grappling experience, would you say it would be difficult to teach the WC concepts on the ground or would it make no difference?

I would have to say some type of ground experience would help the instructor in order to teach WC concepts on the ground to there students.

[MJS]

I'm not speaking for mystic wolf, but I thought that was a really good question. My JJJ background actually made it more difficult to understand the WT ground fighting I kept wanting to "grapple", and that's not what you do with WT groundfighting. Quite the opposite.

But, knowledge in some type of grappling art helps in your ability to teach WT groundfighting to the student. This helps you give them a more realistic feel for what they will come up against, help them feel the locks, takedows, and positions a grappler will most likely use and how to counter these techniques.
Although you can't cover every technique, at least you can teach the student to feel and adjust to more of a realistic grappling technique. I think alot of WT teachers do this to help their students learn the proper application of Wing Chun concepts used on the ground against a wrestler, grappler, or BJJ stylist.
(when hubbie gets home, I'll make sure he checks his MT e-mail to answer better) :)


I would have to say some type of ground experience would help the instructor in order to teach WC concepts on the ground to there students.


Thank you both for your replies. Now, and this is just an observation, but it seems to me that we've all been fighting over this subject, and it seems that we've come to the conclusion that we're all pretty much on the same page, although there may be some differences. We all agree that having some ground experience will help with teaching defense as well as making it easier to teach the WC concepts. Isn't this what myself and a few others have been saying all along?

[mook jong man]

I like to practice grappling with a partner armed with a stick or knife , it just seems to add that little bit of desperation and urgency to your techniques .
Doing things like starting off from bad positions where you are mounted and the knife is held at your throat , this all adds another aspect to grappling that many people don't think about .

[Mystic Wolf]

Sounds like what we do. Every now and again we play with weird scenarios like with waht mook jong man mentioned.
Fun stuff...

[Si-Je]

Thank you both for your replies. Now, and this is just an observation, but it seems to me that we've all been fighting over this subject, and it seems that we've come to the conclusion that we're all pretty much on the same page, although there may be some differences. We all agree that having some ground experience will help with teaching defense as well as making it easier to teach the WC concepts. Isn't this what myself and a few others have been saying all along?

In that light, yes. But, I'm not certian that's what others were saying, as grappling as a "teaching aide". Seems like many were stating grappling as a WC/WT supplement to add to your self-defense tactics.

[Yoshiyahu]

MJS let me asked you a question? Lets say I just start to learn a combat style like Xing Yi, Wing Chun or Praying Mantis? I never took a martial art before. I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?


Whats your opinion?


Is it better to master one style first and learn how to fight other styles with my System I am learning. Or should I try to learn two or three style at the same time so I can be a more well rounded fighter. I mean because Xing Yi,Wing Chun, and Praying Mantis lack the hard techniques of Karate, The flying kicks of Tae Kwon Do and may be even lack some techniques that Tang So Do offers. Maybe if I learn high kicks from karate and learn Xing Yi and learn some form of wrestling and judo I would be a great fighter?

But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?

I already training three nights a week? An the rest of time I practicing on what I learn?

Also if I train to arts at the same time how would this effect my training?

In that light, yes. But, I'm not certian that's what others were saying, as grappling as a "teaching aide". Seems like many were stating grappling as a WC/WT supplement to add to your self-defense tactics.

[dungeonworks]

MJS let me asked you a question? Lets say I just start to learn a combat style like Xing Yi, Wing Chun or Praying Mantis? I never took a martial art before. I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?


Whats your opinion?


Is it better to master one style first and learn how to fight other styles with my System I am learning. Or should I try to learn two or three style at the same time so I can be a more well rounded fighter. I mean because Xing Yi,Wing Chun, and Praying Mantis lack the hard techniques of Karate, The flying kicks of Tae Kwon Do and may be even lack some techniques that Tang So Do offers. Maybe if I learn high kicks from karate and learn Xing Yi and learn some form of wrestling and judo I would be a great fighter?

But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?

I already training three nights a week? An the rest of time I practicing on what I learn?

Also if I train to arts at the same time how would this effect my training?

Why would you want to train as much as your main style if you are only looking to supplement one style?

There are a TON of speculations and stereo types about grapplers in the Wing Chun world...and this is just an observation from a newbie here. I have about 1 1/2-2 yrs of scattered grappling training, or what many deem "MMA Grappling". It was mainly BJJ submissions, body control, ground escapes, and takedown defense (which is AWESOME) of freestyle wrestling, and some leg locks from Sambo (I assume). We did a ton of rolling in that class from a standing position. Many of the guys competetively fought MMA so there was plenty of striking/grappling together. I have since moved on top Wing Chun and see things in WC class that really could work well on the ground with WC, namely the ground escapes and takedown defence, but also, Chisao on the ground to avoid the pummeling most wrestle/brawlers attempt when they first get you down. After the initial barage, when the fatigue kind of begins, they will look to bury their head, relax, change position to mount, and continue. Here's a video of what I mean:

Disclaimer: Just because the video title says Wing Tsun does not mean it is my claim...as I see nothing Wing Tsun-like in it.

Grappler vs. Wing Tsun (Allegedly) (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/Grappler%20vs.%20Wing%20Tsun%20%28Allegedly%29)

Notice the grappler holds him closer than his own skin. This is to not let him have a fraction of an inch to move. An intermediate grappler only needs that much room to snatch a submission on you rather quickly. This guy's alleged Wing Tsun could have been greatly improved in this situation with some basic wrestling and BJJ technique supplemented to his Wing Tsun. I don't think the grappler showed anything spectacular other than a size, strength, and some basic wrestling 101 and BJJ chapter 1 technique to finish. If you listen closely at the end, it sounds like something snapping.

[/URL]Aaron Baum Wing Chun NHB fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynyypQ-wa2Q&feature=related)

Here's one of Sifu Alan Orr's students, Aaron Baum, fighting what apears to be modified MMA rules. I see him using wrestling, submission attempts, and what I "think" is Wing Chun but am not able to make that assumption. Seeing Baum flow like this is a desent example of what I was asking for out of this thread. Basically, I am looking to see how WC/WT mesh with positioning and escaping from BJJ (or any grapple art). Who is doing it? Who has done it and went back to Wing Chun entirely, and why??? I am not trying to make a mockery out of anyone or any style, just truely seeking the different ways we aproach the ground. In all honesty, from many of the posts I have read in the Wing Chun forum are [U]HUGELY presumptive and assuming. Basically, I see this attitude of "All you need to do against a grappler is..." and it is far from reality as is a grappler thinking all they need to do against a striker is just shoot for the takedown. Either way skill level, timing, and flat out luck come into play. I have been pummeled by grapplers in a couple fights. It is NOT A HAPPY PLACE TO BE with a chiseled brute (most grapplers are in pheniminal shape). Thank god in both instances their punches were fluffy (this was before UFC and cross training) and I was able to reverse when they got tired of beating on me (You should see what they looked like! LOL).

[MJS]

In that light, yes. But, I'm not certian that's what others were saying, as grappling as a "teaching aide". Seems like many were stating grappling as a WC/WT supplement to add to your self-defense tactics.

I love to cross train, so my replies probably sounded like I was suggesting adding a grappling art to your base art. However, I understand some don't like to crosstrain, and thats fine, so at the least, taking a look at a grappling art, again it could be anything...Judo, Sambo, BJJ, Wrestling...anything, see how they address a particular situation, compare that to how your base art addresses it, and see if anything can be added from the grappling art. If it can, great, if it can't thats ok too. :)

[Steve]

MJS let me asked you a question? Lets say I just start to learn a combat style like Xing Yi, Wing Chun or Praying Mantis? I never took a martial art before. I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?


Whats your opinion?


Is it better to master one style first and learn how to fight other styles with my System I am learning. Or should I try to learn two or three style at the same time so I can be a more well rounded fighter. I mean because Xing Yi,Wing Chun, and Praying Mantis lack the hard techniques of Karate, The flying kicks of Tae Kwon Do and may be even lack some techniques that Tang So Do offers. Maybe if I learn high kicks from karate and learn Xing Yi and learn some form of wrestling and judo I would be a great fighter?

But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?

I already training three nights a week? An the rest of time I practicing on what I learn?

Also if I train to arts at the same time how would this effect my training?While you asked MJS specifically, since you didn't PM him, I'm presuming that this question is open to everyone. My opinion is that, first, it depends upon the person. Everyone has different talents, abilities and aptitudes... and starts with varying levels of fitness.

Second, it depends upon your own specific goals. If self defense is your goal, some arts seem to teach effective self faster than others emphasizing more "art" than "martial." For example, some people say that tai chi chuan can be effective for self defense, but I don't think anyone would argue that it's the most effective, most practical art for that purpose. If self defense is more important than the sanctity of an art, I would think people would train in whatever works, is practical and has a short learning curve. The specific style or styles involved is irrelevant.

Which leads to my third point, it depends upon how you train. Tai Chi may or may not be good for self defense, but training the way tai chi is trained, self defense is seldom a consideration. Krav Maga, on the other hand, focuses almost strictly on self defense, and it doesn't seem to take very long to progress.

Finally, I think it's telling that very often when these arguments come up, even those arguing against crosstraining have often crosstrained. "I've trained grappling, so I can tell you that it's not necessary. I just use my grappling to help train my students how... not to grapple."

To be clear, I'm not saying grappling is easier to learn than striking, or BJJ than WC (or vice versa). I'm saying that, if SD is your goal, "art" and clear lineage is less important than simply what works and how can I learn it quickly.

[MJS]

MJS let me asked you a question? Lets say I just start to learn a combat style like Xing Yi, Wing Chun or Praying Mantis? I never took a martial art before. I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?


Whats your opinion?


Is it better to master one style first and learn how to fight other styles with my System I am learning. Or should I try to learn two or three style at the same time so I can be a more well rounded fighter. I mean because Xing Yi,Wing Chun, and Praying Mantis lack the hard techniques of Karate, The flying kicks of Tae Kwon Do and may be even lack some techniques that Tang So Do offers. Maybe if I learn high kicks from karate and learn Xing Yi and learn some form of wrestling and judo I would be a great fighter?

But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?

I already training three nights a week? An the rest of time I practicing on what I learn?

Also if I train to arts at the same time how would this effect my training?

I'll do my best to answer your question. Please keep in mind that this is just my opinion. You're not the first person who has asked this question, so my reply is probably going to be similar to what I've said to others.

IMO, I feel that one should have a solid base art first, before looking at something else. I didn't start crosstraining until I was a brown belt in Kenpo. I was in the advanced ranks, and while I wouldn't say I was a master of Kenpo, I had been training for a while, and had a good understanding of the material, so I felt that I was ready to look at something else. Of course, this will vary from person to person. Some may be ready after 4 yrs, some after 8.

Keep in mind, that another question that always comes up is, "How will I find the time?" Well, in school/college, we take many different classes, so yes, it can be done. :) Speaking for myself only here, and I said this in a recent thread I started about spending a lifetime in the arts, that I am in no rush. I'm not a rank whore, so personally, that isn't a priority for me, and really, it shouldn't be for anyone. What matters most to me, is the learning. For the amount of time I've been training in Arnis, I just tested for my black, last year. But again, that doesn't matter to me. Again, I could care less about the rank, the stripes on the belt or whatever else...its the learning that matters most. My work schedule does not allow me to attend classes at night, so I make do with day time classes, when I can, private lessons, and on nights that I am off, I make it to a class. Fortunately, my teachers understand this, and they work around their schedules for me. :)

I may not make it to an Arnis class for a month, but like I said, I work the material that I had, get together with other students, etc., and make it happen. :) I never said it was easy, but yes, it can be done.

As for the arts that I study...those arts came to me, I didn't go to them. One of the teachers at one of my old Kenpo schools, was a black belt in Arnis, and started teaching classes one night a week. I gave it a shot, and was hooked. The BJJ came to me from a guy who had brought his daughter to a class. I was working out and noticed him working some punch/kick combos on a heavy bag in the corner. I walked over, started talking, exchanged info on what we each did, and met for a BJJ lesson. After seeing how much I felt like a fish out of water, I was hooked again.

Like Kenpo, I'm no BJJ or Arnis master. The learning journey for me, is not like some others that we see in the martial arts world, where its a race to see how fast they can get promoted, how many stripes they can show off, and how many arts they can pad their martial arts resume with. I will say it again...none of that matters to me. I am in it to learn, plain and simple. I don't plan on stopping anytime soon, God willing. :)

Everyone that I train with, has more than one background, so its like I'm constantly surrounded by it. The arts I study, work well for me. They blend together very well, and its amazing how many times, when I'm working techs., that I find ways to add stuff in.

Sorry for the long rant. I hope that this answered your question. :)

Mike

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea, Actually I have trained in Aikido when I was a kid. It was totally unpractical in fights. I never could use any of the moves on people. When I was a kid every one fought like a boxer with the speed of leopard. So waiting for them to strike you and countering all the time doesn't work when you get pummeled with barage of endless attacks. I mean In WC I learn how to block and punch correctly right away. So even if I didn't beat a guy up. I could stop from getting my jocked socked. It was a great feeling to know I could stop the average guy from hitting. High School would have been a nightmare if I didn't have Wing Chun. I hated Junior high because all I knew was some Aikido and a little Judo. After I throw the guy then what. He is going to get up and run for me again. Alot of guys were bigger than me. So the hip throw is out of the question unless I want to be on ground.

I didn't learn how to block or punch effectively until Wing Chun. Its alot easier to chain punch a guys face then wait for him to grab your shirt with both hands. This never happen. No one goes up to you an grabs you by the shirt like they do in classes when your wearing gi. No they say whats up man and then start punching you in the face. Sometime they say nothing an just start punching you because they don't like how you look.

No, No, I mean don't get wrong wrestling is great. We had a wrestling team in high school But i never seen a highschool fight where someone got wrestled. Even the wrestlers knew they better punch and doge. Plus you get to wrestling some cat. Who's to say someone else won't jump in. Free hits. At my school people who didn't know either of you jumped in just to get free hits of someone.

lol...

So for me I cross trained. But no...the Cross training didn't do me any good. Until I started Wing Chun. Even now in a fight Aikido and Judo may work 5% of the time. But its usually only good for transition or delaying his attack. When in a fight you want to totally destroy your opponent quickly. You won't to end the fight quickly not prolong it. I mean its great for showing people possible ways you could put someone in a hold. But the main thing is you have to grabbed their punch. With Wing Chun you do so. But why wrestle with the arm to put them in some submission or Chin Na move when you can strike the head. For instance Jut Sau and Punch at the same time(Wing Chun)...Or you could grab the arm, Step in, twist the arm down, Turn you body, then pull the wrist down making the shoulder point upward(Aikido). Then pull the person to the ground. I rather just kick your legs from under you while punching you in sternum or neck to make you fall!







While you asked MJS specifically, since you didn't PM him, I'm presuming that this question is open to everyone. My opinion is that, first, it depends upon the person. Everyone has different talents, abilities and aptitudes... and starts with varying levels of fitness.

Second, it depends upon your own specific goals. If self defense is your goal, some arts seem to teach effective self faster than others emphasizing more "art" than "martial." For example, some people say that tai chi chuan can be effective for self defense, but I don't think anyone would argue that it's the most effective, most practical art for that purpose. If self defense is more important than the sanctity of an art, I would think people would train in whatever works, is practical and has a short learning curve. The specific style or styles involved is irrelevant.

Which leads to my third point, it depends upon how you train. Tai Chi may or may not be good for self defense, but training the way tai chi is trained, self defense is seldom a consideration. Krav Maga, on the other hand, focuses almost strictly on self defense, and it doesn't seem to take very long to progress.

Finally, I think it's telling that very often when these arguments come up, even those arguing against crosstraining have often crosstrained. "I've trained grappling, so I can tell you that it's not necessary. I just use my grappling to help train my students how... not to grapple."

To be clear, I'm not saying grappling is easier to learn than striking, or BJJ than WC (or vice versa). I'm saying that, if SD is your goal, "art" and clear lineage is less important than simply what works and how can I learn it quickly.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. I think it is fine for the first 3 months of Hsing YI you will mostly do Santi anyway or until you can sit in Santi for 20 mins or so how ever long that takes you.



Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?

If you divide your time correctly or have private lessons don't see a problem. If you are training Hsing Yi you will be doing mostly do Santi.
I guess in Wing Chun you start off in stances or so and wrestling you are doing some sort of wrestling/sparing in first class.


But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting? I train Bagua,Hsing yi and Tai chi chuan every day. Adjust your time. If you want to train in more than one art make the time figure out how to make the money to pay for it.

If you work 8hrs a day and sleep 6hrs a day that leaves you with 14hrs to figure out how to train in the arts you want to.

[Si-Je]

To say that people have crosstrained that don't believe in crosstraining is misleading. I've never crosstrained. I've studied one art at a time for 6 months to 3 years at a time. I wouldn't necessarily call that crosstraining. That is devotion to the art you are in at the time.
Cross training to me is taking 2 or more arts at the same time. This I don't recomend if one is to progress in an art in a timely manner. If you want to take a little from one art and then a little bit from another, hense MMA, then that brings a different outcome to the persons style of fighting.
Are them "more well rounded?" or are they just compiling a few techniques to allow them to fight for sport asap? Is this a viable way to train to defend oneself in the street? This is all debateable. And my opinion is already widely known in this matter. Focus on what you train, use what you train, stick to what you know, and adapt your style in application of street self defense. To mix too much can lead to confusion in the heat of the moment, or it could help. It's all up to the individual and the way they learn and can apply what they learn.
Why I don't like the students of WC to crosstrain grappling at the same time is because WC is learning how to punch and strike at GRAPPLING RANGE. If they always fall back on grappling at that range, they will never learn the striking aspects of WC/WT in that range.
Do I mind them learning grappling later? no. It's their choice, but I prefer them to have a good foundation in all ranges of WT/WC before they crosstrain in a grappling art.
As Sifu said, at the level of Si-Je and SiHing he encourages the assistant teachers to crosstrain in other arts, boxing, kickboxing, grappling, whatever to help them give the newer students a more realistic example of what they may face on the street. But, by then a assistant teacher has been in WC/WT for 3-4 years exclusively. Not everyone after that time in WC/WT becomes a SiHing or SiJe, you can "skip" that training and continue learning WC or whatever art as you like. Not everyone training in any art trains to become a teacher. And a teachers curriculum is different than that of a regular student.

[Steve]

To say that people have crosstrained that don't believe in crosstraining is misleading. My intent wasn't to mislead, although i'm not sure I'll ever convince you of that.
I've never crosstrained. I've studied one art at a time for 6 months to 3 years at a time. I wouldn't necessarily call that crosstraining. That is devotion to the art you are in at the time.By my definition, you've crosstrained. I've also heard what you describe being something of a buffet martial artist.
Cross training to me is taking 2 or more arts at the same time. Thanks. It's helpful when we're defining the terms the same way. Now that I know your definition of crosstraining, I can comment more accurately on that. If crosstraining is studying two arts at the sam time, I'd say that it's not for everyone.

Some people can learn two foreig languages at the same time and some can't. I wonder if it would be easier to learn two completely different languages, such as Japanese and Spanish, at the same time, or two similar languages, perhaps Spanish and Portuguese. I'll have to run that by my multi-lingual friends.

Anyway, back to the point, it depends upon the person. And their goals.
This I don't recomend if one is to progress in an art in a timely manner. I agree, and said so in my last post. If progressing in an art is more important than practical, pragmatic, results oriented self defense, you're not doing yourself any favors by dividing your time and attention.
If you want to take a little from one art and then a little bit from another, hense MMA, then that brings a different outcome to the persons style of fighting.That is very true. Whether this style of fighting is good, bad, effective for self defense or not, it is very different.
Are them "more well rounded?" or are they just compiling a few techniques to allow them to fight for sport asap? When some trains in RBSD, are they more well rounded, or are they just compiling a few techniques to allow them to fight for self defense asap? I think that it's semantics. Compiling techniques... or rather, proficiency to the point that a technique is internalized and incorporated into a person's arsenal IS becoming both well rounded and learning to fight ASAP for whatever purpose, be it SD or sport.
And my opinion is already widely known in this matter. Focus on what you train, use what you train, stick to what you know, and adapt your style in application of street self defense. To mix too much can lead to confusion in the heat of the moment, or it could help. It's all up to the individual and the way they learn and can apply what they learn.I think you've said two different things here and lead into some common ground:
Why I don't like the students of WC to crosstrain grappling at the same time is because WC is learning how to punch and strike at GRAPPLING RANGE. If they always fall back on grappling at that range, they will never learn the striking aspects of WC/WT in that range.
Do I mind them learning grappling later? no. It's their choice, but I prefer them to have a good foundation in all ranges of WT/WC before they crosstrain in a grappling art.
As Sifu said, at the level of Si-Je and SiHing he encourages the assistant teachers to crosstrain in other arts, boxing, kickboxing, grappling, whatever to help them give the newer students a more realistic example of what they may face on the street. But, by then a assistant teacher has been in WC/WT for 3-4 years exclusively. Not everyone after that time in WC/WT becomes a SiHing or SiJe, you can "skip" that training and continue learning WC or whatever art as you like. Not everyone training in any art trains to become a teacher. And a teachers curriculum is different than that of a regular student.I don't recall anyone saying that you need to or even should start off training in multiple styles. I certainly don't disagree with you on this. I would only say that there are single schools and styles that address all aspects. MMA is, in my opinion, quickly becoming it's own discreet style. It's not there yet, but there is a common formula that is largely accepted that includes aspects of wrestling, bjj and muay thai.

There will always be BJJ, Muay Thai and Wrestling. I'm not saying these will disappear. Rather, there will be BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and eventually a single style called "MMA". Of course, it could be argued that this already exists and is called Pancrase.

What I'm driving at is if you train in one school through all of the ranges, you're not crosstraining, and it's rapidly approaching a time when MMA will be its own style where training MMA isn't by definition crosstraining.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

If you work 8hrs a day and sleep 6hrs a day that leaves you with 14hrs to figure out how to train in the arts you want to.

Opps I meant 10 hours to train.


I wonder if it would be easier to learn two completely different languages, such as Japanese and Spanish,

I hear that Spanish and Japanese have the sentence structure similar.

[Steve]

Opps I meant 10 hours to train.

I hear that Spanish and Japanese have the sentence structure similar.I was talking to a couple of people I know who have learned multiple foriegn languages for their take on the subject. One is bilingual from youth, having grown up in Puerto Rico. The others all learned languages as adults. All are fluent. I was surprised by their response and it makes a lot of sense to me.

Their unanimous, immediate reaction was to say that the older a person is, the more difficult it will be to "flip the switch" between distinct languages. They both agreed that it was possible to learn multiple languages at the same time, but as a person gets older, this becomes more difficult. Similarity plays a role, but they disagreed about which was "easier."

Where the conversation began to diverge was when athletics were brought up. A decathlete, for example, learns 10 different sports, but as part of one system. So then the question becomes one of synthesis and integration, rather than the scope of training.

Anyway, it's an interesting line of thought. I'm not sure that this provides any resolution or furthers the conversation, but I think it's interesting and at least relevant to the topic. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

I was woundering does anyone think Wing Chun and Tae Kwon Do would make a good match?



I was talking to a couple of people I know who have learned multiple foriegn languages for their take on the subject. One is bilingual from youth, having grown up in Puerto Rico. The others all learned languages as adults. All are fluent. I was surprised by their response and it makes a lot of sense to me.

Their unanimous, immediate reaction was to say that the older a person is, the more difficult it will be to "flip the switch" between distinct languages. They both agreed that it was possible to learn multiple languages at the same time, but as a person gets older, this becomes more difficult. Similarity plays a role, but they disagreed about which was "easier."

Where the conversation began to diverge was when athletics were brought up. A decathlete, for example, learns 10 different sports, but as part of one system. So then the question becomes one of synthesis and integration, rather than the scope of training.

Anyway, it's an interesting line of thought. I'm not sure that this provides any resolution or furthers the conversation, but I think it's interesting and at least relevant to the topic. :)

[dungeonworks]

I was woundering does anyone think Wing Chun and Tae Kwon Do would make a good match?

I could see using a kick or combination of kicks to close the gap, but other than that I never saw anything that would make them a good match. Who said it was???

[Yoshiyahu]

What about some of hand techniques in Authenic Tae Kwon Do. Like there Traditional Forms



I could see using a kick or combination of kicks to close the gap, but other than that I never saw anything that would make them a good match. Who said it was???

[dungeonworks]

What about some of hand techniques in Authenic Tae Kwon Do. Like there Traditional Forms

I personally disliked the hand techniques in TKD as done in the forms....same with Karate, but the way I was taught is the over exaggeration of the movements in Karate kata was to work the full range of motion because in a fight, a little movement "feels" like a lot of movement. I agree, especially after seeing my first kickboxing match on video. I felt like I was moving like Bruce Lee or Benny Uriqidez but looked more like a caucasian and 100lbs. smaller BOB SAPP!!! LOL

Bob Sapp

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/shadowrevo/bob-sapp.jpg

Okay, maybe he has a little bit more musculature! :uhyeah:

[Yoshiyahu]

Whats wrong with the hand techniques in TKD?

Please explain how they are over exaggerated?


I personally disliked the hand techniques in TKD as done in the forms....same with Karate, but the way I was taught is the over exaggeration of the movements in Karate kata was to work the full range of motion because in a fight, a little movement "feels" like a lot of movement. I agree, especially after seeing my first kickboxing match on video. I felt like I was moving like Bruce Lee or Benny Uriqidez but looked more like a caucasian and 100lbs. smaller BOB SAPP!!! LOL

Bob Sapp

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/shadowrevo/bob-sapp.jpg

Okay, maybe he has a little bit more musculature! :uhyeah:

[dungeonworks]

Whats wrong with the hand techniques in TKD?

Please explain how they are over exaggerated?


They tend to be inefficient. Many of them are based from the horse stance, be it stepping/jumping in (or off) on an angle while blocking an incoming punch, deeply chambering the punching hand, then executing. While I think it is good in theory for basic hand strikes for a new martial artist, it's slow and choppy and leaves you wide open in the abdomen or face, and the stances never worked for me...this is all just my opinion of course. In Karate, I was taught that the movements are much shorter in sparring than they are in kata. I do love TKD kicks though. A good TKD kicker is hard to close the gap on. They'll keep many at kicking range where they like it.

My opinion on TKD is that a small percentage of practitioners will be able to make it work. It takes flexibility, stamina, speed, and coordination....attributes that many take a lifetime chasing and few ever grasp. Wing Chun is a contrast to it IMHO because it is ALL efficiency.

[Yoshiyahu]

Did you acquire a black belt in Karate or TKD?


They tend to be inefficient. Many of them are based from the horse stance, be it stepping/jumping in (or off) on an angle while blocking an incoming punch, deeply chambering the punching hand, then executing. While I think it is good in theory for basic hand strikes for a new martial artist, it's slow and choppy and leaves you wide open in the abdomen or face, and the stances never worked for me...this is all just my opinion of course. In Karate, I was taught that the movements are much shorter in sparring than they are in kata. I do love TKD kicks though. A good TKD kicker is hard to close the gap on. They'll keep many at kicking range where they like it.

My opinion on TKD is that a small percentage of practitioners will be able to make it work. It takes flexibility, stamina, speed, and coordination....attributes that many take a lifetime chasing and few ever grasp. Wing Chun is a contrast to it IMHO because it is ALL efficiency.

[dungeonworks]

Blue in TKD and 2nd brown (Ni Kyu) in Koei-Kan Karate.

[Yoshiyahu]

Have you seeen any of the TKD upper Black belt forms?



Blue in TKD and 2nd brown (Ni Kyu) in Koei-Kan Karate.

[dungeonworks]

Have you seeen any of the TKD upper Black belt forms?


I've seen themabout 10-12 years ago, when I left TKD for Koei-kan.. I've also sparred with them on many occasions. I left TKD because I simply didn't see anymore reason to stay in it. Plus, the Koei-kan dojo offered kickboxing and Bogu sparring. It is a full contact Karate instead of that tag game 95% of dojo's/Dojang's play. Point karate is not interesting to me at all and that is the type of sparring the TKD school I last trained at did.

Why don't you start a thread about Wing Chun and TKD or just PM me? You seem interested enough and this one is already about Wing Chun + BJJ.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well I think TKD is just like BJJ. It right now is rather one sided. But TKD unlike BJJ is not one sided in its traditional form. Plus what is BJJ but Brazilian JiuJitsu. If we are talking about mixing I think other styles mixed with WC could also be brought up in this thread...Since we are talking about plus WC what about Karate plus wrestling?

Or TKD plus wrestling?



I've seen themabout 10-12 years ago, when I left TKD for Koei-kan.. I've also sparred with them on many occasions. I left TKD because I simply didn't see anymore reason to stay in it. Plus, the Koei-kan dojo offered kickboxing and Bogu sparring. It is a full contact Karate instead of that tag game 95% of dojo's/Dojang's play. Point karate is not interesting to me at all and that is the type of sparring the TKD school I last trained at did.

Why don't you start a thread about Wing Chun and TKD or just PM me? You seem interested enough and this one is already about Wing Chun + BJJ.

[Steve]

Well I think TKD is just like BJJ. It right now is rather one sided. But TKD unlike BJJ is not one sided in its traditional form. Plus what is BJJ but Brazilian JiuJitsu. Can you explain this a little more? I'm not sure I understand your point. BJJ is as one sided as WC, and of course it's Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. What is WC but Wing Chun?

[dungeonworks]

Can you explain this a little more? I'm not sure I understand your point. BJJ is as one sided as WC, and of course it's Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. What is WC but Wing Chun?


Same here.

[dungeonworks]

If you're asking if I think BJJ + TKD is a good mix, I would answer heck yes. TKD kicks against a good grappler is likely going to the ground if he misses a kick or has it caught. BJJ would be a nice tool box for the TKD guy to transition to.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I don't mean to say anything with posting this vids, just got an asociation when reading about kicking and thought it's interesting to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBdtzh8y7sc&feature=rec-fresh

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=EhsanShafiq&view=videos

[Nolerama]

I don't mean to say anything with posting this vids, just got an asociation when reading about kicking and thought it's interesting to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBdtzh8y7sc&feature=rec-fresh

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=EhsanShafiq&view=videos

The first one's been removed. I don't know what you're trying to get us to watch in the second one. Please elaborate.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea thats what I am saying!!!


If you're asking if I think BJJ + TKD is a good mix, I would answer heck yes. TKD kicks against a good grappler is likely going to the ground if he misses a kick or has it caught. BJJ would be a nice tool box for the TKD guy to transition to.

[KamonGuy2]

Oh dear I'm starting to see why there is a confusion about BJJ

If you truly think that TKD is a good self defence art, then you really need to get out into the proper martial arts arena

It is a sport. Nothing else. The farce at the Olympics should have shown that. Especially, when one of the fighters went to knock out the referee because he was disqualified and the referee merely shrugged at his attack

I trained various different versiosn of TKD, and each one ws just as poor as the other. Yes, if you are standing still and let the guy do a kick to your head, its going to hurt, but that was the problem, when we trained full sparring (any style vs any style) it was a lot of fun. As soon as distance closed, they didn't knwo what to do. And most of the long range stuff was very easy to get out of the way of

I currently train in karate, which whilst quite 'solid/fixed' has a lot more power, depth, no flamboyant kicks or over energetic punches
It is a much better fit for my long range game. And I have chosen a karate style that you don't need to put strength into it, so it fits well into my wing chun

Don't get me wrong - every martial art style has its place, but I have a real problem with people claiming TKD to be a good self defence style. It is like me trying to say that wing chun is a great sport

[KamonGuy2]

To say that people have crosstrained that don't believe in crosstraining is misleading. I've never crosstrained. I've studied one art at a time for 6 months to 3 years at a time. I wouldn't necessarily call that crosstraining. That is devotion to the art you are in at the time.
Cross training to me is taking 2 or more arts at the same time. This I don't recomend if one is to progress in an art in a timely manner. If you want to take a little from one art and then a little bit from another, hense MMA, then that brings a different outcome to the persons style of fighting.
Are them "more well rounded?" or are they just compiling a few techniques to allow them to fight for sport asap? Is this a viable way to train to defend oneself in the street? This is all debateable. And my opinion is already widely known in this matter. Focus on what you train, use what you train, stick to what you know, and adapt your style in application of street self defense. To mix too much can lead to confusion in the heat of the moment, or it could help. It's all up to the individual and the way they learn and can apply what they learn.
Why I don't like the students of WC to crosstrain grappling at the same time is because WC is learning how to punch and strike at GRAPPLING RANGE. If they always fall back on grappling at that range, they will never learn the striking aspects of WC/WT in that range.
Do I mind them learning grappling later? no. It's their choice, but I prefer them to have a good foundation in all ranges of WT/WC before they crosstrain in a grappling art.
As Sifu said, at the level of Si-Je and SiHing he encourages the assistant teachers to crosstrain in other arts, boxing, kickboxing, grappling, whatever to help them give the newer students a more realistic example of what they may face on the street. But, by then a assistant teacher has been in WC/WT for 3-4 years exclusively. Not everyone after that time in WC/WT becomes a SiHing or SiJe, you can "skip" that training and continue learning WC or whatever art as you like. Not everyone training in any art trains to become a teacher. And a teachers curriculum is different than that of a regular student.

Nonsense. You have cross trained, simple as that. Any person who has done more than one art and done them well has cross trained. MMA guys usually only train certain martial arts for a couple of months and move on. True, that they usually start out with some kind of foundation art, but have to work on all areas in order to get into the cage

I originally trained in karate for seven years, then went into boxing, ninjitsu, escrima, TKD, wrestling and a couple of others whilst I as going through high school. Then I started Kamon wing chun and never looked back. I wouldn't say that I have mastered the art, but it has certainly been the art that gave me foundations
I would never reccomend that a beginner (someone who has trained for 3 years or less) should start going into other martial arts, but certainly once you are confident with your wing chun and are merely perfecting what you have already learnt, you should start looking at other styles and do them in a very relaxed way (ie once a week)

To become good at self defence, you must have all areas covered. Groundwork is part of that. I think people misconceive the idea that if they go to ground then they wrap themselves into clinches until they get a submission. I'm not talking about that. I am talking abou understanding the basic principles so that if someone gets on top of you, you aren't going to panic and try to a pathetic flurry of chain punches while some brute hammers down on you

You merely need to know how to recover from those kind of situations until you find yourself back in a dominant position where you can use your most powerful weapon - wing chun. Even if the person is a good grappler it will not matter. I have sparred with purple, brown and black belts and whilst I could never even dream of out grappling them (even with my size/strength), I know that I could get them into a position where I would at least I have a chance of using my wing chun.

So many people on these forums worry about destroying the purity of their art. That is nonsense. Most of the martial arts we see today (including wing chun) has been modified, adpated and made much more efficient.

I would like to think that had ip Man been alive today, he would have admitted interest in the grappling game (maybe he was, who knows)

[dungeonworks]

Oh dear I'm starting to see why there is a confusion about BJJ

If you truly think that TKD is a good self defence art, then you really need to get out into the proper martial arts arena

It is a sport. Nothing else. The farce at the Olympics should have shown that. Especially, when one of the fighters went to knock out the referee because he was disqualified and the referee merely shrugged at his attack

I trained various different versiosn of TKD, and each one ws just as poor as the other. Yes, if you are standing still and let the guy do a kick to your head, its going to hurt, but that was the problem, when we trained full sparring (any style vs any style) it was a lot of fun. As soon as distance closed, they didn't knwo what to do. And most of the long range stuff was very easy to get out of the way of

I currently train in karate, which whilst quite 'solid/fixed' has a lot more power, depth, no flamboyant kicks or over energetic punches
It is a much better fit for my long range game. And I have chosen a karate style that you don't need to put strength into it, so it fits well into my wing chun

Don't get me wrong - every martial art style has its place, but I have a real problem with people claiming TKD to be a good self defence style. It is like me trying to say that wing chun is a great sport


Kamon, don't know if you were directing this my way or not. What I said is that TKD would be good for a BJJ guy. It'd be a good bridge to the ground or at distance. I had a few guys in my old TKD school that could use it very well, which brings me to my other point....some are a natural fit for TKD, others have to REALLY work at it, and some will really work at it and never be adept with it. I fall somewhere between the last two regarding TKD. I been out of TKD now since about 1995 as I thought it had nothing else to offer aside the flexability and kicks I still have today and that the Koei-Kan Karate did (full contact sparring, better hands, throws, some grappling, locks...ect). It was much better fit for me and my body frame. Koei-Kan is an ecclectic Karate consisting of Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan styles. If you have it near you, it is worth a look.

What Karate are you training, Ashihara???

[Eru Ilúvatar]

It is a sport. Nothing else. The farce at the Olympics should have shown that. Especially, when one of the fighters went to knock out the referee because he was disqualified and the referee merely shrugged at his attack


Indeed that was very funy :) I like watching good TKD matches tho.

[Yoshiyahu]

Was TKD always a sport or was it once a self defence.

Also Did old TKD utilize more real fighting aspects oppose sports sparring?

Also would you say TKD would be useful in a street fight?


Oh dear I'm starting to see why there is a confusion about BJJ

If you truly think that TKD is a good self defence art, then you really need to get out into the proper martial arts arena

It is a sport. Nothing else. The farce at the Olympics should have shown that. Especially, when one of the fighters went to knock out the referee because he was disqualified and the referee merely shrugged at his attack

I trained various different versiosn of TKD, and each one ws just as poor as the other. Yes, if you are standing still and let the guy do a kick to your head, its going to hurt, but that was the problem, when we trained full sparring (any style vs any style) it was a lot of fun. As soon as distance closed, they didn't knwo what to do. And most of the long range stuff was very easy to get out of the way of

I currently train in karate, which whilst quite 'solid/fixed' has a lot more power, depth, no flamboyant kicks or over energetic punches
It is a much better fit for my long range game. And I have chosen a karate style that you don't need to put strength into it, so it fits well into my wing chun

Don't get me wrong - every martial art style has its place, but I have a real problem with people claiming TKD to be a good self defence style. It is like me trying to say that wing chun is a great sport

[dungeonworks]

Was TKD always a sport or was it once a self defence.

Also Did old TKD utilize more real fighting aspects oppose sports sparring?

Also would you say TKD would be useful in a street fight?

Was Hijacking a Wing Chun + BJJ threads with irrelevant Tae Kwon Do questions without purpose?

Also, would you say your answering questions without adding insight as to why you ask those questions is useful or has any purpose other than to derail this thread?

Also, would you say your Tae Kwon Do questions would be useful in a separate thread?

[Yoshiyahu]

I have no idea what your talking about right now?


Was Hijacking a Wing Chun + BJJ threads with irrelevant Tae Kwon Do questions without purpose?

Also, would you say your answering questions without adding insight as to why you ask those questions is useful or has any purpose other than to derail this thread?

Also, would you say your Tae Kwon Do questions would be useful in a separate thread?

[KamonGuy2]

What Karate are you training, Ashihara???

It is a slight variation of Kyukoshinkai karate
My sensai teaches full contact but emphasises a lot on not always blocking block for block (ie don't use strength vs strength)

He is a very good instructor and knows the difference between what will work and what won't (ie when we do stancework, he explains that its just to train the legs and not a practical self defence stance)

[KamonGuy2]

Was TKD always a sport or was it once a self defence.

Also Did old TKD utilize more real fighting aspects oppose sports sparring?

Also would you say TKD would be useful in a street fight?

I will answer this quick, but if you have more questions relayed to TKD, let's move the thread, or just PM me

All martial arts have certain movements that can in theory be used in anything. You could, if forced, find a way to make wing chun a sport (indeed there are a few chi sao tournaments that fly about)

Similarly (as I said) if you catch an opponent off guard with a roundhouse kick, you are going to hurt them. Yet, my point was that there are far far better arts to use for self defence than TKD

Every TKD demo I have seen related to self defence has been fixed drills and the opponent had to be doing a certain technique. Whereas in wing chun for example, i can ask my students to throw in ANY attack and I will deal with it. Not always brilliantly, but I will deal with it nonetheless. Most TKD guys fall apart if you grab them

I have done a lot of TKD and CKD and in all honesty the only thing I took away from it was the fitness from the sparring. Everything else I learnt better and quicker elsewhere

I'm not trying to bash TKD, like Dungeonworks said - there are people in the world who want to do martial arts with sparring without getting a serious pounding. Its fun and active, but I wouldn't say it is an art designed for self defence

As I mentioned before - just look at the Olympics...

[Yoshiyahu]

Would you say BJJ is more of sport or self defense in your opinion?


Would you say BJJ is more practical in getting a work out and building stamina that it is in self defence techniques?

How do you think a skilled TKD guy would fair against a Brazilian Jiujitsu guy in a street fight? In your humble opinion?




I will answer this quick, but if you have more questions relayed to TKD, let's move the thread, or just PM me

All martial arts have certain movements that can in theory be used in anything. You could, if forced, find a way to make wing chun a sport (indeed there are a few chi sao tournaments that fly about)

Similarly (as I said) if you catch an opponent off guard with a roundhouse kick, you are going to hurt them. Yet, my point was that there are far far better arts to use for self defence than TKD

Every TKD demo I have seen related to self defence has been fixed drills and the opponent had to be doing a certain technique. Whereas in wing chun for example, i can ask my students to throw in ANY attack and I will deal with it. Not always brilliantly, but I will deal with it nonetheless. Most TKD guys fall apart if you grab them

I have done a lot of TKD and CKD and in all honesty the only thing I took away from it was the fitness from the sparring. Everything else I learnt better and quicker elsewhere

I'm not trying to bash TKD, like Dungeonworks said - there are people in the world who want to do martial arts with sparring without getting a serious pounding. Its fun and active, but I wouldn't say it is an art designed for self defence

As I mentioned before - just look at the Olympics...

[dungeonworks]

I know this wasn't asked of me but here's my two cents.


Would you say BJJ is more of sport or self defense in your opinion?

It totally depends how one trains and what they want out of the art of BJJ. You can add throat grabs, eye gouges, groin strikes/grabs...ect. It's also a popular sport and if one is training solely for sport, only a little on the fly improvisation of natural tendencies in a self defense situation is really needed for the most part, IMVHO. Here in MI, if you are attacked outside right now where the ground is covered in ice, the fight is going on the ground. Someone will slip and fall pretty easily which only gives advantage to any grapple art. Heck, even brawlers would likely goto the ground, it's NASTY outside and below 0 F!



Would you say BJJ is more practical in getting a work out and building stamina that it is in self defence techniques?

No, but it will build stamina that is very different from the stamina type you get from striking styles. I learned that the first time on the mat! LOL Anaerobic stamina? Is that the word I am looking for? VERY important to sport or self defense.


How do you think a skilled TKD guy would fair against a Brazilian Jiujitsu guy in a street fight? In your humble opinion?

Badly in most cases. The first or within the first few head kick attempts and he'd likely be taken right to the ground and hurt in most any situation or surface. See any of the Gracie's In Action series to see what I mean.

[KamonGuy2]

Would you say BJJ is more of sport or self defense in your opinion?
It is both.
Some people train purely for sport
Others train it purely for self defence

They often split the art into gi and no gi training with the no gi training more of a practical session

Things like arm bars etc, whilst effective, are dangerous to perform in the street because they take time and the best result by doing it is a snapped limb, which people can still fight on with
Whilst you are trying to get that kind of technique on a person, people can intervene (think crowded pub)

However, chokes and clinchwork is essential for martial artists in self defence situations - there are just some people who you will never be able to knock out (maybe because your hits aren't that hard yet, or because your opponent is three times your size!)



Would you say BJJ is more practical in getting a work out and building stamina that it is in self defence techniques??
Having traiend in quite a few arts, I can honestly say that BJJ is the most tiring and the best workout. Karate comes second and wing chun is third
Because in BJJ you are using your whole body to pivot, gain leverage, etc, you are exercising your whole body
Half an hour of continuous BJJ sparring would be enough for anyone


How do you think a skilled TKD guy would fair against a Brazilian Jiujitsu guy in a street fight? In your humble opinion?A TKD would have no chance. Like I said, TKD is not a self defence art. BJJ whilst used for sport, also has a very effective self defence side to it (ie you don't always have to go to ground)

[Yoshiyahu]

Please name some Korean and Japanese arts that are basic Self defense arts now used in sports?



It is both.
Some people train purely for sport
Others train it purely for self defence

They often split the art into gi and no gi training with the no gi training more of a practical session

Things like arm bars etc, whilst effective, are dangerous to perform in the street because they take time and the best result by doing it is a snapped limb, which people can still fight on with
Whilst you are trying to get that kind of technique on a person, people can intervene (think crowded pub)

However, chokes and clinchwork is essential for martial artists in self defence situations - there are just some people who you will never be able to knock out (maybe because your hits aren't that hard yet, or because your opponent is three times your size!)



Having traiend in quite a few arts, I can honestly say that BJJ is the most tiring and the best workout. Karate comes second and wing chun is third
Because in BJJ you are using your whole body to pivot, gain leverage, etc, you are exercising your whole body
Half an hour of continuous BJJ sparring would be enough for anyone

A TKD would have no chance. Like I said, TKD is not a self defence art. BJJ whilst used for sport, also has a very effective self defence side to it (ie you don't always have to go to ground)

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Please name some Korean and Japanese arts that are basic Self defense arts now used in sports?

Just about every Japanese art is used in sport. Kendo,Karate,Judo,Jujutsu,Sumo,Kyudo,Naginatajutsu ,some forms of Aikido.

You can read all about Japanese sports:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_Japan

[Yoshiyahu]

Which Japanese Arts would be consider a Self Defense Art?



Just about every Japanese art is used in sport. Kendo,Karate,Judo,Jujutsu,Sumo,Kyudo,Naginatajutsu ,some forms of Aikido.

You can read all about Japanese sports:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_Japan

[bs10927]

Which Japanese Arts would be consider a Self Defense Art?


i thought all that Jade listed are fighting arts but also used in sport....

[Yoshiyahu]

Well He said that they were sports...He didnt clarify they were ever used as self defense?



i thought all that Jade listed are fighting arts but also used in sport....

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Which Japanese Arts would be consider a Self Defense Art?

I think all Japanese arts can be considered a self defense art because at one time they were used in actual combat.

I suppose Kendo and Naginatajutsu are common sport activites for youth.

Usually Naginata classes are for girls like junior high.

The term Goshin and Jissen come to mind when talking self defense in Japanese arts. Goshin meaning self defense and Jissen meaning real or reality hardcore something like that.

The Japanese view learning martial arts to strengthen your mind and spirit.

They think Americans are only interested in fighting. So the idea behind why Japanese practice martial arts is more strenghtening mind.body spirit,discipine then self defense. I can not speak for all Japanese or Americans only based on my experience.

[seasoned]

I think all Japanese arts can be considered a self defense art because at one time they were used in actual combat.

I suppose Kendo and Naginatajutsu are common sport activites for youth.

Usually Naginata classes are for girls like junior high.

The term Goshin and Jissen come to mind when talking self defense in Japanese arts. Goshin meaning self defense and Jissen meaning real or reality hardcore something like that.

The Japanese view learning martial arts to strengthen your mind and spirit.

They think Americans are only interested in fighting. So the idea behind why Japanese practice martial arts is more strenghtening mind.body spirit,discipine then self defense. I can not speak for all Japanese or Americans only based on my experience.

It seems that in the oriental culture spirituality and training the body for self defense went hand and hand. Americans separate the two, I think.

[Yoshiyahu]

Very interesting.

[KamonGuy2]

Please name some Korean and Japanese arts that are basic Self defense arts now used in sports?

I don't really understand your question?

Are you asking for Korean/Japanese arts that are ONLY used in sports, or arts that are used in both self defence and sports

You get sport karate. but at its core is good self defence. A GOOD karate instructor will distinguish the difference between moves used for clicker (sport) tournaments and moves used for practical self defence

Aikido has many practical self defence techniques, but sadly the ones I have seen rely too much on a person grabbing you a certain way
I once had a wing chun student who was an instructor of Aikido. I asked him to show me some concepts/moves and he asked me to grab his wrist. Then he told me I wasn't grabbing him right. It took about four attempts to get the right hold on him for a move to work. I wasn't being troublesome and was genuinally trying to assist.

Obviously, no matter what art you train you will get people who are exceptionally good, but I just find that generally the best self defence arts are usually wing chun, BJJ, Muay Thai, karate, and if I've forgotten soem then I apologise

Also (and I haven't forgotten) boxing. A good boxer will know how to hit very very hard. The only reason I wouldn't classify it as being with one of the great self defence arts is that it does rely a lot on weight and size (ie a light boxer will have next to no chance against someone who weighs three times his weight). The same could be said for muay Thai, although there are a few moves that a lightweight MT guy could pull off that would topple a bigger guy

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree...To me Muay Thai, Karate and Wing Chun I feel are great Martial Defense. I took Akido...As a Kid. But it wasn't much use. Now Judo had more use when I was in Junior High but not really. An in my high school days there was no use for grappling arts. Fights go to fast to try to tumble someone bigger than me to ground. So WC was a clear choice for me. Next would have been Karate or Boxing.






I don't really understand your question?

Are you asking for Korean/Japanese arts that are ONLY used in sports, or arts that are used in both self defence and sports

You get sport karate. but at its core is good self defence. A GOOD karate instructor will distinguish the difference between moves used for clicker (sport) tournaments and moves used for practical self defence

Aikido has many practical self defence techniques, but sadly the ones I have seen rely too much on a person grabbing you a certain way
I once had a wing chun student who was an instructor of Aikido. I asked him to show me some concepts/moves and he asked me to grab his wrist. Then he told me I wasn't grabbing him right. It took about four attempts to get the right hold on him for a move to work. I wasn't being troublesome and was genuinally trying to assist.

Obviously, no matter what art you train you will get people who are exceptionally good, but I just find that generally the best self defence arts are usually wing chun, BJJ, Muay Thai, karate, and if I've forgotten soem then I apologise

Also (and I haven't forgotten) boxing. A good boxer will know how to hit very very hard. The only reason I wouldn't classify it as being with one of the great self defence arts is that it does rely a lot on weight and size (ie a light boxer will have next to no chance against someone who weighs three times his weight). The same could be said for muay Thai, although there are a few moves that a lightweight MT guy could pull off that would topple a bigger guy

[KamonGuy2]

Yeah Judo is a good style, but still can be risky against a bigger opponent

I once got thrown by a Judo guy and dragged him down with me

But again, certain aspects of the art can be very beneficial to whatever system you are studying

[Yoshiyahu]

I think if you use something like Judo along with Offensive art it can be beneficial.

Judo, Tai Chi, Wrestling, BJJ, Aikido and JiuJitsu are more defensive arts. Where Karate boxing and WC are more offensive and attacking arts.


Its kinda of hard to throw a guy who is throwing lighting fast punches trying to knock your head off?



Yeah Judo is a good style, but still can be risky against a bigger opponent

I once got thrown by a Judo guy and dragged him down with me

But again, certain aspects of the art can be very beneficial to whatever system you are studying