Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[dungeonworks]

I think if you use something like Judo along with Offensive art it can be beneficial.

Judo, Tai Chi, Wrestling, BJJ, Aikido and JiuJitsu are more defensive arts. Where Karate boxing and WC are more offensive and attacking arts.


Its kinda of hard to throw a guy who is throwing lighting fast punches trying to knock your head off?

It can be until one punch misses, he gets wrapped up and: slammed by a wrestler, thrown by Judoka, or hauled down by a BJJ player. At this point it is all about who can force who's game on the other.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Its kinda of hard to throw a guy who is throwing lighting fast punches trying to knock your head off?

That is where timing and distancing take place and knowing how to clinch.

Once you are in a clinch you can work knees and then work on setting up your throw. Also if he is aiming for strikes to the face you can go for a takedown at his legs. Lots of nasty tricks you can use.

[Si-Je]

Please name some Korean and Japanese arts that are basic Self defense arts now used in sports?

I think I see what you mean. Tae Kwon Do (Tang Soo Do) would be Korean arts used in sport competition now. Japanese arts used in sport: Judo (olympic) Kendo, basic Karate (they compete mainly punching the chest not the face), Shoot fighting.
Some Korean SD arts not in sport (that I know of) Hapkido would be a good SD art, mean stuff.
Japanese SD: Aikido would be a good SD art, but you'd have to train it for a while to get proficient with it. Aiki Ju-Jitsu (has all Judo throws, chokes, ground fighting, standing escapes, weapons, and striking very well rounded style. Samori class fighting style), Ninjitsu (If you can find the real deal, lol!), Kempo Karate (Okinawian) for SD, I don't know if they compete in sport, but I'm sure they do.
Many arts can be easily converted to sport competition.
Even WC/WT. :)

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Some Korean SD arts not in sport (that I know of) Hapkido would be a good SD art, mean stuff.

Hapkido is thought as a part of the TKD curiculum. At least I was thought that way not realy sure if it's so with other schools too though. We had to know elements of hapkido for each belt test and had to use them in a application. Mostly: a guy grabs you and you this and that.

[Seeker]

Its kinda of hard to throw a guy who is throwing lighting fast punches trying to knock your head off?

Not really, otherwise clinches would never happen in boxing nor MT.

[Si-Je]

Not really, otherwise clinches would never happen in boxing nor MT.

Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music ;) )

It's continious flowing from one strike to another using punches, knees, elbows, chops, forearm "shivers", palm striking, shoulder "bumps" or strikes, and kicking all flowing and simoltaneously attacking and defending.

Boxing and MT utilize 1.2.3. movements.
1. block or dodge as you move backwards
2. move forward and strike or kick
3. follow up with combonation

WT/WC combines these three moments into one motion.

1. moving into attacker, punching, kicking, and deflecting at the same time, then flowing from there to the next strike on and on until opponent is finished. You never stop, you never go back, you never break contact with opponent to "regroup" and attempt another strategy.
This barrage of attack is extremely difficult to find the "timing" to shoot in for a clinch or takedown if done properly. For there is no break in time from one movement to the next. Once the WT/WC practitioner moves to defend or attack (each is the same movement and philosophy for they ARE the cause and result of the other-Lao Tzu) they never pause, or stop from one techniuqe to the next.
Kempo Karate in the more advanced levels do this alot too. With continious striking there is no readable combination to time your chance to shoot in. Only constant striking to the opponent's face, neck, knee, groin, eyes, temple, throat, ribs, kidneys, etc. on and on and on until the opponent is defeated.

If a stylist can take 5-25 multiple punches to the head (depending on the speed and skill of the WC/WT practitioner) and still manage to get in close enough to clinch or grapple then still most of the power of the takedown or clinch is negated and weakened, making the effectiveness of the throw or whatever less well,.. effective.
That is what Yoshi is meaning, I believe. When he states that it is hard to clinch or throw someone who is trying to knock your head off striking. :)

[Seeker]

Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music ;) )

It's continious flowing from one strike to another using punches, knees, elbows, chops, forearm "shivers", palm striking, shoulder "bumps" or strikes, and kicking all flowing and simoltaneously attacking and defending.

Boxing and MT utilize 1.2.3. movements.
1. block or dodge as you move backwards
2. move forward and strike or kick
3. follow up with combonation

WT/WC combines these three moments into one motion.

1. moving into attacker, punching, kicking, and deflecting at the same time, then flowing from there to the next strike on and on until opponent is finished. You never stop, you never go back, you never break contact with opponent to "regroup" and attempt another strategy.
This barrage of attack is extremely difficult to find the "timing" to shoot in for a clinch or takedown if done properly. For there is no break in time from one movement to the next. Once the WT/WC practitioner moves to defend or attack (each is the same movement and philosophy for they ARE the cause and result of the other-Lao Tzu) they never pause, or stop from one techniuqe to the next.
Kempo Karate in the more advanced levels do this alot too. With continious striking there is no readable combination to time your chance to shoot in. Only constant striking to the opponent's face, neck, knee, groin, eyes, temple, throat, ribs, kidneys, etc. on and on and on until the opponent is defeated.

If a stylist can take 5-25 multiple punches to the head (depending on the speed and skill of the WC/WT practitioner) and still manage to get in close enough to clinch or grapple then still most of the power of the takedown or clinch is negated and weakened, making the effectiveness of the throw or whatever less well,.. effective.
That is what Yoshi is meaning, I believe. When he states that it is hard to clinch or throw someone who is trying to knock your head off striking. :)

My fantasy was about the same.

I just had that vision of one of those WC demos where the WC guy makes his slick move and unloads this massive succession of 25 chain punches all landing on vital targets while his opponent is frozen in place and cannot move nor make any attempt at covering, swiming in, stepping offline, going for underhooks or dropping down into a single/double leg take down, etc. None of that.

When do I get to learn the stuff that allows me to do this? :vu:

[KamonGuy2]

Clinches are extremely common
I would say that around 70% of all streetfights inolve some sort of clinch, whether it be a person grabbing a t-shirt or a more defined clinch.

The best thing o watch or programmes on TV where they show CCTV footage of nightclub brawls
('Police, Camera, Action' or 'Bouncers'). Because people are so fuelled on aggression the natural reaction is to grab and rip and tear at your opponent, not to stand in an excellent stance and shoot out lightning fast punches. Admittedly that does happen from time to time (see the classic boxer vs happy slapper on youtube for example), but it is rare

My friend who is a sensei in karate (full contact karate) was done over in a nightclub once because the person came at him like a steam train and caught him off guard. Even though my friend was faster and more skilled, he wasn't ready for clinching and raw aggression

You also have to think about room. In formats such as boxing, you often train/fight in a ring giving you amples of space to move around. In a nightclub, even though the crowd often parts, you are still confined and bound to trip over peoples legs or be backed into/up against the bar

I'm glad to say that wing chun works exceptionally well in clinchwork situations - even better than boxing, because we can strike from that small distance, whereas boxers aren't as experienced at that (ie the ref has to seperate them in those situations)

Master Chan is a master at clinchwork, but this hasn't come from BJJ - it is wing chun that he utilizes to map, fold and use the clinch against the opponent

I am hoping that he does a clinchwork DVD in the near future because I have never seen anyone do anything like it
I mean, everyone does clinchwork, but it is all about breaking away from the clinch or 'getting out of' the clinch, which is a bad mentality

If you try to break out of a clinch, your opponent is also free to hit you or re-engage a grab. If, however, you leave the grab where it is and work round it in a relaxed way, your opponent will often not have a chance

For the UK guys - get down on a Monday to the Kamon Croydon class (in Surrey) You can come in and sit down, and Master Chan will answer any questions on this subject

I think after that, you will not dispute the need for clinchwork or basic grappling knowledge

Peace out

[dungeonworks]

Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music ;) )

It's continious flowing from one strike to another using punches, knees, elbows, chops, forearm "shivers", palm striking, shoulder "bumps" or strikes, and kicking all flowing and simoltaneously attacking and defending.

Boxing and MT utilize 1.2.3. movements.
1. block or dodge as you move backwards
2. move forward and strike or kick
3. follow up with combonation

WT/WC combines these three moments into one motion.

1. moving into attacker, punching, kicking, and deflecting at the same time, then flowing from there to the next strike on and on until opponent is finished. You never stop, you never go back, you never break contact with opponent to "regroup" and attempt another strategy.
This barrage of attack is extremely difficult to find the "timing" to shoot in for a clinch or takedown if done properly. For there is no break in time from one movement to the next. Once the WT/WC practitioner moves to defend or attack (each is the same movement and philosophy for they ARE the cause and result of the other-Lao Tzu) they never pause, or stop from one techniuqe to the next.
Kempo Karate in the more advanced levels do this alot too. With continious striking there is no readable combination to time your chance to shoot in. Only constant striking to the opponent's face, neck, knee, groin, eyes, temple, throat, ribs, kidneys, etc. on and on and on until the opponent is defeated.

If a stylist can take 5-25 multiple punches to the head (depending on the speed and skill of the WC/WT practitioner) and still manage to get in close enough to clinch or grapple then still most of the power of the takedown or clinch is negated and weakened, making the effectiveness of the throw or whatever less well,.. effective.
That is what Yoshi is meaning, I believe. When he states that it is hard to clinch or throw someone who is trying to knock your head off striking. :)

I agree with you to a point, but you are making an assumption that the boxer/MT fighter is aimlessly tossing out combinations in hopes something will hit. This is inacurate. There is a degree of sensitivity and judgement boxers and MT fighters use before the commit to such attacks and entirely dismisses the fact that they will poke and feel with smaller techniques such as jabs and fakes (body movement, punches, and or kicks). If it were so simple, they would be easily dispatched, but it isn't so they aren't. Wing Chun makes it easier to jam and befuddle a boxer or MT practitioner but is not always failsafe against such styles. In otherwords, MT and boxing has some well enough fakes to "bait" others into their realm as well. They do not throw the same comninations every time and are very able to change them up at will.

[Steve]

While western boxing has limited clinch work, striking from the clinch with knees, elbows and fists is a big part of Muay Thai, and as a result has worked its way into MMA competitions, as well. You'll also often see foot stomps and kicks with the heel from within the clinch. It's often referred to as "dirty boxing" but isn't really. It's just fighting from the clinch.

I'm not saying that WC is bad or doesn't include clinch fighting. I'm simply pointing out that there are other tactics and disciplines also incorporating striking at the clinch range.

[Si-Je]

My fantasy was about the same.

I just had that vision of one of those WC demos where the WC guy makes his slick move and unloads this massive succession of 25 chain punches all landing on vital targets while his opponent is frozen in place and cannot move nor make any attempt at covering, swiming in, stepping offline, going for underhooks or dropping down into a single/double leg take down, etc. None of that.

When do I get to learn the stuff that allows me to do this? :vu:

Your funny! lol!
Demos are demos, training is different. Sparring is different. You will learn to move with your opponent, no matter where they go, or what they try to do.
A guy shoots into your legs or hips those vital spots are exposed by the very nature of the shoot in. The back of the neck, head, knee to the face, etc. Alot of those people in the demos don't move much because they learn really quick that if they do it just makes it worse and more painful for them.
We've had students come in from MMA and other arts, even grappling that love to shoot in on Sifu. At the first couple of attempts they come in really hard and struggle and fight with everything they've got to get ahold of him, but after a couple of "sessions" of that, they ease up. They find that the harder and faster they shoot in the harder they get hit.
Simple physics:
The inertia and velosity of Sifu's incoming punches are doubled by the incoming inertia and velosity of the attackers shoot in, takedown, clinch, or strike. Added by the mass and body weight of both Sifu and the Attacker.
Pow! and Ouch!
Inertia x mass = power + the inertia x mass of Sifu's attack = double the power.

[MJS]

Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music ;) )

How much do you really know about boxing? Yes, there are a typical set of punches that they use, ie: jab, cross, hook, upper cut, etc., however, there is are endless combos of those punches that can be put together. I would say its very difficult to study every pattern and assume that you would know what would be coming next.

[Si-Je]

How much do you really know about boxing? Yes, there are a typical set of punches that they use, ie: jab, cross, hook, upper cut, etc., however, there is are endless combos of those punches that can be put together. I would say its very difficult to study every pattern and assume that you would know what would be coming next.

Don't have to. We don't do combos. We don't allow combos to be completed. Different approach to fighting than most other styles.
WC/WT's not worried about studying what an opponent "might" do or what their combo looks like. You won't know anyway in the street no matter how much you crosstrain.
You go forward, engage, respond, deflect, strike, kick, attack their structure, follow through, flow, and don't anticipate anything.
Simotaneously, no rythum, no combo, no set positions or preplaned format.
"do not anticipate the outcome of the engagement." Bruce Lee.
Basic WC concepts, basic Tao.
By NOT anticipating, you are able to accept what comes and respond accordingly without over analyzing and thinking. Reflexive. Reactive. The true origion of WC/WT's famous "speed". Shortest distance between two points taken in striking and kicking will make you faster even if the other opponent is physically faster than you. If they take a "longer route" you will still get there faster.
Act with the intention to hit always no matter what the oponent does, and you WILL hit the opponent.

[MJS]

Don't have to. We don't do combos. We don't allow combos to be completed. Different approach to fighting than most other styles.
WC/WT's not worried about studying what an opponent "might" do or what their combo looks like. You won't know anyway in the street no matter how much you crosstrain.
You go forward, engage, respond, deflect, strike, kick, attack their structure, follow through, flow, and don't anticipate anything.
Simotaneously, no rythum, no combo, no set positions or preplaned format.
"do not anticipate the outcome of the engagement." Bruce Lee.
Basic WC concepts, basic Tao.
By NOT anticipating, you are able to accept what comes and respond accordingly without over analyzing and thinking. Reflexive. Reactive. The true origion of WC/WT's famous "speed". Shortest distance between two points taken in striking and kicking will make you faster even if the other opponent is physically faster than you. If they take a "longer route" you will still get there faster.
Act with the intention to hit always no matter what the oponent does, and you WILL hit the opponent.

You stated that boxers use set patterns. I stated that is not true. However, I do agree that we will not know the type of fighter we face until the fight begins to unfold. On the other hand, once it unfolds, it should begin to be apparent what type of fighter you're facing. Just another reason why I like to work with various people.

[Si-Je]

You stated that boxers use set patterns. I stated that is not true. However, I do agree that we will not know the type of fighter we face until the fight begins to unfold. On the other hand, once it unfolds, it should begin to be apparent what type of fighter you're facing. Just another reason why I like to work with various people.

Working with as many different stylist is great, and I enjoy doing that as well. :)
I've known several boxers that have very set and preferred patterns they use when they box, whether they realize it or not. In fact isn't that exactly what a corner man is there to point out to a fighter in the ring? To notice, reconize and tell their fighter the patterns the other boxer is falling into?
Well, many stylists fall into this in many arts, even WT/WC. It's just the goal not to do patterns, set combos, etc.
By the way, my dad taught me boxing as a kiddo from when he boxed in the U.S. Navy. There was alot of set positions, and set techniques, and combos. Combos for after you "block" or "cover" from a jab or hook, punch combos, pre set stance "combos" to bait and distract or confuse the opponent.
That's what he taught me, maybe they don't train boxing that way anymore. But, everytime I watch a match, after about 5 minutes into the fight I can predict pretty well what each fighter will do. I can see the patterns they prefer and they telegraph alot to me. MMA is the same way too. Although, they do get more creative because they can do more and use more technique. (I think that's what I like best about MMA fighters, their ability to adapt on the fly and their creativity in their individual styles) :)

I'm babbling, sorry. lol!
anyways, WC don't anticipate the style, skill set, technique or intentions of the opponent. Accept what comes, respond instictively and accordingly.

[Yoshiyahu]

Very interesting and true...wow...i was just speaking about this. Yea. one can cross train in Muay Thai, Boxing and Tae Kwon Do. That won't prepare you for a karate fighter or other striker. Just because you know a little about MT Boxing and TKD doesn't make you ready to fight other strikers. It just gives you and idea of whats done in the styles you studied. But if your a yellow belt or green belt in karate and a black belt in TKD are you really ready and knowledgable enough to know what a Old stlye Karate guy is going to do who holds a 3rd degree black belt?
Yea if I study Muay Thai, Boxing and BJJ. Will I really be prepared and know how to defend against Japanese Jiujitsu master or a Judo master? wouldn't I have to study their art too an learn the basics.

I think the best way to be prepared to fight people of other styles is to spar with them alot. spar people of different skill sets and ranks from various styles. That way you have experience in adjusting and adapting your own prime art to what ever situtation you encounter...

I mean really. the whole idea to defeat a grappler you need to study grappling...An the same doesn't apply for strikers. With strikers most people say well you do this and that against kicker or boxer. But when it comes to grappling you need to study a grappling art?

1.So if your going to fight a Judo person do you need to cross train judo?

2.So if your going to fight a shoot wrestler do you need to cross train shoot wrestling?

3.So if your going to fight a Sambo fighter do you need to cross train Sambo?

4.So if your going to fight a greco roman wrestler do you need to cross train GReco wrestling??

Just a basic question please answer anybody?


Don't have to. We don't do combos. We don't allow combos to be completed. Different approach to fighting than most other styles.

WC/WT's not worried about studying what an opponent "might" do or what their combo looks like. You won't know anyway in the street no matter how much you crosstrain.

You go forward, engage, respond, deflect, strike, kick, attack their structure, follow through, flow, and don't anticipate anything.
Simotaneously, no rythum, no combo, no set positions or preplaned format.

"do not anticipate the outcome of the engagement." Bruce Lee.
Basic WC concepts, basic Tao.

By NOT anticipating, you are able to accept what comes and respond accordingly without over analyzing and thinking. Reflexive. Reactive. The true origion of WC/WT's famous "speed". Shortest distance between two points taken in striking and kicking will make you faster even if the other opponent is physically faster than you. If they take a "longer route" you will still get there faster.

Act with the intention to hit always no matter what the oponent does, and you WILL hit the opponent.

[MJS]

Very interesting and true...wow...i was just speaking about this. Yea. one can cross train in Muay Thai, Boxing and Tae Kwon Do. That won't prepare you for a karate fighter or other striker. Just because you know a little about MT Boxing and TKD doesn't make you ready to fight other strikers. It just gives you and idea of whats done in the styles you studied. But if your a yellow belt or green belt in karate and a black belt in TKD are you really ready and knowledgable enough to know what a Old stlye Karate guy is going to do who holds a 3rd degree black belt?
Yea if I study Muay Thai, Boxing and BJJ. Will I really be prepared and know how to defend against Japanese Jiujitsu master or a Judo master? wouldn't I have to study their art too an learn the basics.

Sigh..I had a long post prepared, but opted not to post it...why bother. Sounds like you're attempting another strawman with this post.


I think the best way to be prepared to fight people of other styles is to spar with them alot. spar people of different skill sets and ranks from various styles. That way you have experience in adjusting and adapting your own prime art to what ever situtation you encounter...

Preach it baby, preach it!! I guess you've missed the dozen or so times I've said the same thing.


I mean really. the whole idea to defeat a grappler you need to study grappling...An the same doesn't apply for strikers. With strikers most people say well you do this and that against kicker or boxer. But when it comes to grappling you need to study a grappling art?

What the hell are you talking about???? Look back to the first UFC. Look at the one style fighters that fought grapplers. How did they do?


1.So if your going to fight a Judo person do you need to cross train judo?

2.So if your going to fight a shoot wrestler do you need to cross train shoot wrestling?

3.So if your going to fight a Sambo fighter do you need to cross train Sambo?

4.So if your going to fight a greco roman wrestler do you need to cross train GReco wrestling??

Just a basic question please answer anybody?

Are you being serious here or just trolling?? Just a basic question, so please answer.

[Yoshiyahu]

Thank you for your post..so true exactly what I mean. Most competive boxers do use set one two or 1,2,3 or even 1,2,3,4 combos. Really good boxers can pull 1,2,3,4,5 and sometimes 6 and 7 strike combos. I don't about more than that. But that same boxer will use other items in the street. If that same boxer is in the street he will us elbows,head butts, groin shots,push, grab back of the neck an punch the face, grab the head with weaker hand an smash the nose with the other hand. In the ring grabbing is not allowed in boxing competitions. But the bare handed boxer fights different in the street. There are even basic blocks some boxers might use along with a variation of pak sau. In the hood its called slap boxing. But its not taught much in the hood. My mother and older cousins share a little boxing with me as a kid. I picked up more as i got older. But boxing in the street encompasses much more than the rules you see in the ring. An often illegal moves not used in ring are allowed in the clinch in the street. Boxers also use take downs and grapplings and I even seen one boxer use a knee strike in street fight.

But I disagree on some points. I have seen some boxers who have contious flow from punching to bobbing and weaving. But your right not many utilize flow anymore. They mostly do combos and back off. But that same boxer in a street fight will not use combos alone but flow contiously. Unless he can knock out the opponent.

As for gaining a clinch. If your fighting a guy who is use to hitting heavy bag weighing 200lbs a day, Punching a wall bag filled with iron shots, hitting a 70lb wooden man everyday.Kicking a tree along with a heavy bag. An the guy is loose, relax, calm as well as continously striking with the power to make a 70lbs wooden man shake off the floor with each block, move a heavy bag filled with sand in the air with each strike and kick and make a solid brick wall tremble from hitting a wall bag filled with shots. I think if he is punching your head or kidneys with out gaps or breaks it would be difficult to shoot in the clinch when his elbows or fist fly towards your chin,nose,throat and kidneys?

I could be wrong though.




Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music ;) )

It's continious flowing from one strike to another using punches, knees, elbows, chops, forearm "shivers", palm striking, shoulder "bumps" or strikes, and kicking all flowing and simoltaneously attacking and defending.

Boxing and MT utilize 1.2.3. movements.
1. block or dodge as you move backwards
2. move forward and strike or kick
3. follow up with combonation

WT/WC combines these three moments into one motion.

1. moving into attacker, punching, kicking, and deflecting at the same time, then flowing from there to the next strike on and on until opponent is finished. You never stop, you never go back, you never break contact with opponent to "regroup" and attempt another strategy.
This barrage of attack is extremely difficult to find the "timing" to shoot in for a clinch or takedown if done properly. For there is no break in time from one movement to the next. Once the WT/WC practitioner moves to defend or attack (each is the same movement and philosophy for they ARE the cause and result of the other-Lao Tzu) they never pause, or stop from one techniuqe to the next.
Kempo Karate in the more advanced levels do this alot too. With continious striking there is no readable combination to time your chance to shoot in. Only constant striking to the opponent's face, neck, knee, groin, eyes, temple, throat, ribs, kidneys, etc. on and on and on until the opponent is defeated.

If a stylist can take 5-25 multiple punches to the head (depending on the speed and skill of the WC/WT practitioner) and still manage to get in close enough to clinch or grapple then still most of the power of the takedown or clinch is negated and weakened, making the effectiveness of the throw or whatever less well,.. effective.
That is what Yoshi is meaning, I believe. When he states that it is hard to clinch or throw someone who is trying to knock your head off striking. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

I have a question? why do MMA guys usually train one grappling art and two or more striking arts?


Sigh..I had a long post prepared, but opted not to post it...why bother. Sounds like you're attempting another strawman with this post.



Preach it baby, preach it!! I guess you've missed the dozen or so times I've said the same thing.



What the hell are you talking about???? Look back to the first UFC. Look at the one style fighters that fought grapplers. How did they do?



Are you being serious here or just trolling?? Just a basic question, so please answer.

[dungeonworks]

I have a question? why do MMA guys usually train one grappling art and two or more striking arts?

You got that backwards. Most fighters study BJJ and wrestling for the ground work and rely on Muay Thai for stand up. That is a broad generalization of the styles employed in modern MMA competition. A perfect example of this type fighter would be welterweight champ Georges St. Pierre. Although he came from Kyokushin Karate background, he has since stuck with the three styles mentioned...and made it work.

[MJS]

I have a question? why do MMA guys usually train one grappling art and two or more striking arts?

Dungeonworks summed it up.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

A perfect example of this type fighter would be welterweight champ Georges St. Pierre.

He's one of my favorite MMA fighters :)

[Yoshiyahu]

What three styles does Georges St. Pierre practice?


You got that backwards. Most fighters study BJJ and wrestling for the ground work and rely on Muay Thai for stand up. That is a broad generalization of the styles employed in modern MMA competition. A perfect example of this type fighter would be welterweight champ Georges St. Pierre. Although he came from Kyokushin Karate background, he has since stuck with the three styles mentioned...and made it work.

[Steve]

What three styles does Georges St. Pierre practice?GSP started with a black belt in Kyokushin Karate, and has since earned a black belt in BJJ along with training western boxing, muay thai and wrestling.

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay so he has

Three striking styles?
Two grappling styles?


More in striking than grappling...


GSP started with a black belt in Kyokushin Karate, and has since earned a black belt in BJJ along with training western boxing, muay thai and wrestling.

[MJS]

Okay so he has

Three striking styles?
Two grappling styles?


More in striking than grappling...

And your point is??

[Yoshiyahu]

More study towards striking was my point?


And your point is??

[Steve]

I franklt don't know for sure. I threw out what I'm confident he trains in but be could work in anything.

But I am sure that the line if reasoning troubles me a little. I think too much emphasis is being given to counting styles. It seems to me to be an oversimplification.

Honestly, I'm not sure how useful it is to use GSP or any athlete of that caliber as the bar. It woud be like using Bruce Lee as an example of the average WC student. Both are/were far from average. :)

[MJS]

More study towards striking was my point?

Ok. I was just wondering if you were leading up to anything else with that. IE: striking is more important than grappling and proof is because GSP does x number of stand up arts vs x number of grappling.

Now, if we look at someone like Chuck, we'll see primarily a stand up striker, however, he does have a grappling background, and IMO, uses it pretty effectively. My point...without that, he'd most likely not have as much success defending against other grapplers.

[dungeonworks]

Okay so he has

Three striking styles?
Two grappling styles?


More in striking than grappling...

He started out Kyokushin Karate before MMA ever heard of the guy called GSP (Georges St. Pierre). Their is a series on Spike channel that shows in depth footage and interviews with him, his trainers, and the same for his upcoming opponent BJ Penn.

He presently trains MUAY THAI AT THE TRISTAR GYM, WRESTLING WITH CANADIAN OLYMPIC TEAM, and BRAZILLIAN JIUJITSU....2 GRAPPLING and ONE STRIKING ART.

Now, in the past, yes, he like sooooo many other MMA pro's come from several arts and styles. Styles do not mean diddly squat in MMA or on the street.

Please quit trying to load these questions in your feable attempts to twist others answers to fit what you want everyone to agree with. It slows the Qi-Gong of the thread! LOL

[Si-Je]

I think ya'll are looking too much into Yoshi's questions. He's just asking a question, don't be so defensive.
I wonder sometimes why they train 2 or 3 striking styles and 2 or more "grappling" styles too. But, I guess it's to make sure they have everything covered in the ring.
Since their most likely to fight people with stronger backgrounds in many arts, i.e. judo, BJJ, JJJ, karate, MT, boxing, wrestling, etc.
I think though, and it is still a "theory" that WC could and would be able to handle it. Still waiting for our "extra cash" to flow in to get Sifu hubbie's medical, and resgistration, and licenseing paid for to get him a ring match. I'm really getting impatient! lol!

[Steve]

It slows the Qi-Gong of the thread! LOLThis truly made me laugh out loud.

[MJS]

I think ya'll are looking too much into Yoshi's questions. He's just asking a question, don't be so defensive.

Looking too much?? Sorry, I don't think so. What I do see are a) strawman arguments, b) contradiction, c) repeatedly asking the same question, in some way, in an attempt to discredit what we say and justify what he says.



I wonder sometimes why they train 2 or 3 striking styles and 2 or more "grappling" styles too. But, I guess it's to make sure they have everything covered in the ring.
Since their most likely to fight people with stronger backgrounds in many arts, i.e. judo, BJJ, JJJ, karate, MT, boxing, wrestling, etc.
I think though, and it is still a "theory" that WC could and would be able to handle it.

So in other words...WC would be able to come out on top of all of those other arts?



Still waiting for our "extra cash" to flow in to get Sifu hubbie's medical, and resgistration, and licenseing paid for to get him a ring match. I'm really getting impatient! lol!

IIRC, wasn't he supposed to have some match at your school with someone? I thought I saw that somewhere in one of these threads.

[Si-Je]

The guy never showed. As usual.
He teaches every monday, wensday, and saturday, is always there.
And yeah, WC principles can handle all those other styles. IMHO. And in the experience of my Sifu.

This is the very core of the thread. BJJ similariaties and contrasts to WC, and the "apparent" need to supplement WC with BJJ.

He askes the questions because he wants to hear your responses, he wants to know why and how you think. You don't have to be so defensive about it. If he's trying to make a point that just like everyone on this thread, as well as this forum. We're here to discuss and make our points, to share information, opinions, facts, and speculate about theory and application.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I think though, and it is still a "theory" that WC could and would be able to handle it. Still waiting for our "extra cash" to flow in to get Sifu hubbie's medical, and resgistration, and licenseing paid for to get him a ring match. I'm really getting impatient! lol!

Lol me too! Since you say he will only use WC in the cage, can I ask you if he's considering to modify his WC for the cage? Even a little? And if, what does he intend to modify to adapt it to the cage? Could I ask you to PM me when a video is available? Would be grateful.

[Si-Je]

We will post the video on publicly and on YouTube.
He's not augmenting WC for the cage, just using more basic techniques same WC just not the nasty stuff. (eye gouging, groin shots, punching to the head and neck, etc.)
They allow enough in the "cage" to use most WC technique.

[MJS]

The guy never showed. As usual.
He teaches every monday, wensday, and saturday, is always there.

Hopefully something will work out. :)



And yeah, WC principles can handle all those other styles. IMHO. And in the experience of my Sifu.

So, here we see it again....WC being billed as the unbeatable, self defense art.


This is the very core of the thread. BJJ similariaties and contrasts to WC, and the "apparent" need to supplement WC with BJJ.

If you don't want to cross train, don't. Its really that simple, and I'm wondering why this thread has gone on for this long. People either want to do it or they don't.


He askes the questions because he wants to hear your responses, he wants to know why and how you think. You don't have to be so defensive about it. If he's trying to make a point that just like everyone on this thread, as well as this forum. We're here to discuss and make our points, to share information, opinions, facts, and speculate about theory and application.

And the reponses have been given....over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Show me something that is new here in this thread. Its the same question asked, just worded slightly different. And if you can't see that, if you can't see the strawman argument he's trying to make, then I really don't know what to tell you.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well let me comment on WC being and unbeatable style...

First off all if fight for money in Thailand and you have been training in Muay Thai for like ten years and have plenty of experience of fighting various martial arts styles. Than your Muay Thai can handle every style thats out there. Of course someone with more skill than you can defeat you.

If you are skilled Karate guy who has fought both in the ring,cage,tournments and on street for ten years. An practice karate for twenty years than yes this guy can handle all styles no question about it. Now can he be beaten by someone with more skill yes...of course...But he can also win depending on strength,technique,speed,timing or just mere chance.


Now an extremly skilled WC guy who WC guy who has been training hard for six years. An he has the complete system and has also sparred many different fighters from different styles an also has been in numerous fights both one and one and five to one. This guy will be adept to handling every other style too. He doesn't need to cross train because he has refined his art an polished it with experience and combat. His refinements are found in combat. Now of course someone with more skill may be able to beat him from his own style or another style. But the main thing is if you train your art hard...test your art through combat. Then the qualifying statement!



And yeah, WC principles can handle all those other styles. IMHO. And in the experience of my Sifu.




So in other words...WC would be able to come out on top of all of those other arts?




think though, and it is still a "theory" that WC could and would be able to handle it.

Now my Question...I my self have studied a little Judo and Aikido and I did some sparring with the Judo instructor son. But that was just kick boxing.
So my training at first was two Grappling and one striking art. But then later on I started with Wing Chun. An also did a little hung gar later. Very little Hung gar and walking the circle from Bagua. Later on I started learning Tai Chi and started on Bagu Eight Palms form. But anyway my core is Wing Chun because I find it the most useful.


But in either case as the years progress I have studied a little bit from more striking arts and had WC as my primary fighting style.

Now the issue is why does it seem that Striking arts outnumber the grappling arts. Most of MMA guys I hear talking they all say its BJJ and Muay thai with WC. Or Wrestling with MT and Boxing?

Why is it seem that MT boxing and WC are the major arts used in MMA and BJJ and Greco Wrestling are the main arts they used?

[MJS]

Well let me comment on WC being and unbeatable style...

First off all if fight for money in Thailand and you have been training in Muay Thai for like ten years and have plenty of experience of fighting various martial arts styles. Than your Muay Thai can handle every style thats out there. Of course someone with more skill than you can defeat you.

If you are skilled Karate guy who has fought both in the ring,cage,tournments and on street for ten years. An practice karate for twenty years than yes this guy can handle all styles no question about it. Now can he be beaten by someone with more skill yes...of course...But he can also win depending on strength,technique,speed,timing or just mere chance.


Now an extremly skilled WC guy who WC guy who has been training hard for six years. An he has the complete system and has also sparred many different fighters from different styles an also has been in numerous fights both one and one and five to one. This guy will be adept to handling every other style too. He doesn't need to cross train because he has refined his art an polished it with experience and combat. His refinements are found in combat. Now of course someone with more skill may be able to beat him from his own style or another style. But the main thing is if you train your art hard...test your art through combat. Then the qualifying statement!








Now my Question...I my self have studied a little Judo and Aikido and I did some sparring with the Judo instructor son. But that was just kick boxing.
So my training at first was two Grappling and one striking art. But then later on I started with Wing Chun. An also did a little hung gar later. Very little Hung gar and walking the circle from Bagua. Later on I started learning Tai Chi and started on Bagu Eight Palms form. But anyway my core is Wing Chun because I find it the most useful.


But in either case as the years progress I have studied a little bit from more striking arts and had WC as my primary fighting style.

Now the issue is why does it seem that Striking arts outnumber the grappling arts. Most of MMA guys I hear talking they all say its BJJ and Muay thai with WC. Or Wrestling with MT and Boxing?

Why is it seem that MT boxing and WC are the major arts used in MMA and BJJ and Greco Wrestling are the main arts they used?

Sigh...where to start. First, you seem to be under the assumption that a BB means you're unbeatable. I beg to differ. Keep in mind, that you had guys who devoted years to 1 art, get taken down and submitted by Royce in the UFC.

As for WC being used in the ring....I've never heard of any fighter using it, of course I may be wrong. Its usually the mix thats already been listed.

Said it before, I'll say it again...if you want to cross train, fine, do it. If you dont then don't. End of story.

[Steve]

Sigh...where to start. First, you seem to be under the assumption that a BB means you're unbeatable. I beg to differ. Keep in mind, that you had guys who devoted years to 1 art, get taken down and submitted by Royce in the UFC.I'll also add that you have a guy in Matt Hughes who took down and defeated Royce Gracie largely because Royce refused to admit that he needed more than BJJ to defeat a well rounded fighter. The whole thing came full circle.

[Si-Je]

Sigh...where to start. First, you seem to be under the assumption that a BB means you're unbeatable. I beg to differ. Keep in mind, that you had guys who devoted years to 1 art, get taken down and submitted by Royce in the UFC.

As for WC being used in the ring....I've never heard of any fighter using it, of course I may be wrong. Its usually the mix thats already been listed.

Said it before, I'll say it again...if you want to cross train, fine, do it. If you dont then don't. End of story.

Wing Tsun in the ring: Sifu Grados of NY's fighter right here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVyrNR39m3E

Seal the Deal again in the ring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ9sB0pumXU

[Steve]

Wing Tsun in the ring: Sifu Grados of NY's fighter right here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVyrNR39m3E

Seal the Deal again in the ring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ9sB0pumXUThis is interesting. Once again, it goes back to how one trains. One of the main guys on the rival website that you guys don't like to hear about on this one actually trains and instructs kung fu, and has been successful with it in the ring.

I guess I don't know enough about WC to be able to identify it in these videos. The first one looked like a good sprawl and power shots from the top. The second was pretty short... not a lot of time to see it. What am I missing?

[MJS]

Great clips! Thanks for posting those! :)

In the first clip, the only part that looked WC to me, was the beginning. After that, it seemed to me that it was sprawling/grappling positions. The 2nd clip, obviously alot shorter, had more of a WC feel to it.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know that guys training background? Is he just pure WC or has he crosstrained? If I had to guess, I'd say he has a grappling/wrestling background.

[jarrod]

this thread is still going? amazing.

fyi, i still like grappling.

jf

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Wing Tsun in the ring: Sifu Grados of NY's fighter right here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVyrNR39m3E

Seal the Deal again in the ring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ9sB0pumXU

Hey Si-Je, check this guy out: Wing Tsun in the ring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8cCTwG0B8U

Sorry, I couldn't find a shorter video of this fight :) But check his other fights too. He's an mma fighter(and not a bad one at all) who traines WC and tai chi among other things. In one of the youtube videos I've seen him do tai chi forms and WC. I've seen him do bong saos in the cage too.

And oh yea, being an mma fighter he probably had to combine groundfightind with WC so this is sort of on topic :)

Oh and check out his home page http://www.samiberik.com/hunsite.html. He's got a cool song playing about WC lol :)

[dungeonworks]

Well let me comment on WC being and unbeatable style...

First off all if fight for money in Thailand and you have been training in Muay Thai for like ten years and have plenty of experience of fighting various martial arts styles. Than your Muay Thai can handle every style thats out there. Of course someone with more skill than you can defeat you.

If you are skilled Karate guy who has fought both in the ring,cage,tournments and on street for ten years. An practice karate for twenty years than yes this guy can handle all styles no question about it. Now can he be beaten by someone with more skill yes...of course...But he can also win depending on strength,technique,speed,timing or just mere chance.


Now an extremly skilled WC guy who WC guy who has been training hard for six years. An he has the complete system and has also sparred many different fighters from different styles an also has been in numerous fights both one and one and five to one. This guy will be adept to handling every other style too. He doesn't need to cross train because he has refined his art an polished it with experience and combat. His refinements are found in combat. Now of course someone with more skill may be able to beat him from his own style or another style. But the main thing is if you train your art hard...test your art through combat. Then the qualifying statement!








Now my Question...I my self have studied a little Judo and Aikido and I did some sparring with the Judo instructor son. But that was just kick boxing.
So my training at first was two Grappling and one striking art. But then later on I started with Wing Chun. An also did a little hung gar later. Very little Hung gar and walking the circle from Bagua. Later on I started learning Tai Chi and started on Bagu Eight Palms form. But anyway my core is Wing Chun because I find it the most useful.


But in either case as the years progress I have studied a little bit from more striking arts and had WC as my primary fighting style.

Now the issue is why does it seem that Striking arts outnumber the grappling arts. Most of MMA guys I hear talking they all say its BJJ and Muay thai with WC. Or Wrestling with MT and Boxing?

Why is it seem that MT boxing and WC are the major arts used in MMA and BJJ and Greco Wrestling are the main arts they used?

Wing Chun is far Far FAR FAR MT, Greco, and wrestling yes, but Wing Chun???

I still do not understand why/how you think each fighter is a sole stylist of one single art and lacks the capability to utilize anything aside that inside each art. In Kung Fu movies and Video games, yes, you have many fighters like that (some can even throw balls of Chi!!!:BSmeter:) but in the modern world, you are going to have someone that likely has dabbled in one art or more before settling in one style or someone that cross trains in many.

[dungeonworks]

Wing Tsun in the ring: Sifu Grados of NY's fighter right here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVyrNR39m3E

Seal the Deal again in the ring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ9sB0pumXU


In the first video, where was the Wing Chun(legit question, NOT TROLLING!!!)??? I seen a very tense and hard/unrelaxed fighter use sprawl-n-brawl boxing with knees up the center, the only WC that I seen, but (that could be my WC inexperience). He was using a 50-50 stance and reeling waaaay back before throwing punches instead of structure being the source of his power. He finished the fight not too unlike anyother MMA guy ground and pounding his way to a TKO. To me, he looked like a powerful guy with a decent sprawl, heavy hands, and a knee to the head of an opponant always helps when they are on the ground, which is usually illegal in American MMA.

In the second one, I see him starting in a WC advancing stance, start to straight blast and finish with boxing. one-two punches into the straight blast he is using boxing footwork (for the most part) and reeling way back with his arms for power. Where was the Wing Chun? IMVHO, he looks like an MMA guy now training WC. Again, not trolling, I am asking where the Wing Chun is as I may have missed it due to my inexperience.

[dungeonworks]

this thread is still going? amazing.

fyi, i still like grappling.

jf

TROLL!!! (j/k! Meant sarcastically)

[dungeonworks]

Great clips! Thanks for posting those! :)

In the first clip, the only part that looked WC to me, was the beginning. After that, it seemed to me that it was sprawling/grappling positions. The 2nd clip, obviously alot shorter, had more of a WC feel to it.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know that guys training background? Is he just pure WC or has he crosstrained? If I had to guess, I'd say he has a grappling/wrestling background.


Hmmm....it's odd that I read this after watching those videos and came up with a similar conclusion. The 18 second KO victim also looked like a 155 lb fighter that forgot to cut down from 250 lbs! Dude would be better if he cut off that weight and fought lighter.

[KamonGuy2]

Can I just point out that Grados students cross train (ie are taught all areas of martial arts)
If you type grappling and grados into youtube, one of his top students actually talks about the need to improve his ground game

I think the whole thing has moved into the 'wing chun needs BJJ' area which is not the point. We are focusing on BJJ too much

Wing chun needs a ground game. If you are happy 'anti grapling' then fine, but your martial art technique will be STRONGER with a good art such as BJJ, Judo or catch wrestling. Rather than trying to make your art 'fit' into an unknown area, learn the basics of an art that is the best at that area

Wing chun is extremely good upright, but it is not flawless

There will be times when you are dragged to the floor or fall to the floor etc. That is undesputable. People are thinking very 2 dimensionally - two fighters at either side of the ring. Of course in that situation it will be hard for a wing chun person to be taken down. I am talking in crowded bars in a streetfight, where there are obstacles, people etc. I have lost count the number of times I have gone to ground unwillingly - and I have good footing and good stancework

Why paint a picture in black and white when you can add other colours?

[MJS]

Can I just point out that Grados students cross train (ie are taught all areas of martial arts)
If you type grappling and grados into youtube, one of his top students actually talks about the need to improve his ground game

I think the whole thing has moved into the 'wing chun needs BJJ' area which is not the point. We are focusing on BJJ too much

Wing chun needs a ground game. If you are happy 'anti grapling' then fine, but your martial art technique will be STRONGER with a good art such as BJJ, Judo or catch wrestling. Rather than trying to make your art 'fit' into an unknown area, learn the basics of an art that is the best at that area

Wing chun is extremely good upright, but it is not flawless

There will be times when you are dragged to the floor or fall to the floor etc. That is undesputable. People are thinking very 2 dimensionally - two fighters at either side of the ring. Of course in that situation it will be hard for a wing chun person to be taken down. I am talking in crowded bars in a streetfight, where there are obstacles, people etc. I have lost count the number of times I have gone to ground unwillingly - and I have good footing and good stancework

Why paint a picture in black and white when you can add other colours?

Good points, and yes, the discussion has taken the BJJ vs. WC debate, however, there've been many times where I've pointed to any grappling art. I guess those posts have gone un-noticed by a few people. For the record, I'm not talking about you. :)

[Si-Je]

Oh, I just don't agree. But, each to their own.
I'll stick with the anti-grappling. I searched grappling and Sifu Grados and didn't find anything about his student stating that he needs "ground game". Found this cool video though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2iuOjgyTbI

I really wish I'd found WC years ago, it would have saved me alot of money, trouble, and time in training.

If you want to train BJJ with your WT/WC, that's all a personal choice. If one just doesn't feel "well rounded" without it, then that's a personal decision. But, don't let folks that promote another art for their own benefit (I'm talking about teachers, professional instructors makeing a living off teaching, etc.) convince you that you just absolutely NEED it. I just encourage folks to make their decision based on how they feel and think about it not on what is popular, or trendy, or what many people are doing for whatever reason.
But, that's just me, my personality, and may not fit everyone else. I've never been very politiacall correct, trendy, even fashionable (I've still got my metal biker jacket from High school! And wear it often! lol!), and I just hate pop culture, so I'm just a little more rebellious than some.
But, if you've come to that ultimate conclusion that your gonna mix BJJ with your WC/WT, then there you go. Do what you think is best for you. Doesn't mean I'll agree with you, and that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. Just opinion.
But, I'm not going to be convinced that that choice just needs to be made by me, that my fighting technique needs something other than WC/WT. I've got a different point of view, had different experiences, and have different knowledge.
Each to their own. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

I think crosstraining in iron palm or tiger claws would beneficial to WC?


What about you?

[Si-Je]

I think crosstraining in iron palm or tiger claws would beneficial to WC?


What about you?

could be very good. ;)
How about eagle claw? lol!
I had an eagle claw guy snatch my wrist and forearm at the speed of light in the most painful way one time! He was just a little old man, didn't know he'd move that fast. I told him I trained WC (not knowing about the eagle claw and WC thing. lol) and he just snatched me! ouch!
That's pretty neat stuff too.

[dungeonworks]

I think crosstraining in iron palm or tiger claws would beneficial to WC?


What about you?


I prefer Maple Plank Whitefish or Pork Loin myself.

[dungeonworks]

could be very good. ;)
How about eagle claw? lol!
I had an eagle claw guy snatch my wrist and forearm at the speed of light in the most painful way one time! He was just a little old man, didn't know he'd move that fast. I told him I trained WC (not knowing about the eagle claw and WC thing. lol) and he just snatched me! ouch!
That's pretty neat stuff too.

Is there a connection between Eagle Claw and Bak Mei somehow somewhere and Wing Chun? Does either relate to Wing Chun? I saw Eddie Chong mentions Bak Mei on his site but never heard of any Wing Chun relation but some of the videos look like video I seen on Eagle Claw.

[MJS]

Oh, I just don't agree. But, each to their own.
I'll stick with the anti-grappling. I searched grappling and Sifu Grados and didn't find anything about his student stating that he needs "ground game". Found this cool video though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2iuOjgyTbI

I really wish I'd found WC years ago, it would have saved me alot of money, trouble, and time in training.

If you want to train BJJ with your WT/WC, that's all a personal choice. If one just doesn't feel "well rounded" without it, then that's a personal decision. But, don't let folks that promote another art for their own benefit (I'm talking about teachers, professional instructors makeing a living off teaching, etc.) convince you that you just absolutely NEED it. I just encourage folks to make their decision based on how they feel and think about it not on what is popular, or trendy, or what many people are doing for whatever reason.
But, that's just me, my personality, and may not fit everyone else. I've never been very politiacall correct, trendy, even fashionable (I've still got my metal biker jacket from High school! And wear it often! lol!), and I just hate pop culture, so I'm just a little more rebellious than some.
But, if you've come to that ultimate conclusion that your gonna mix BJJ with your WC/WT, then there you go. Do what you think is best for you. Doesn't mean I'll agree with you, and that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. Just opinion.
But, I'm not going to be convinced that that choice just needs to be made by me, that my fighting technique needs something other than WC/WT. I've got a different point of view, had different experiences, and have different knowledge.
Each to their own. :)

Tell me...in this clip, how much of this is WC anti grappling?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVyrNR39m3E

[KamonGuy2]

Oh, I just don't agree. But, each to their own.
I'll stick with the anti-grappling. I searched grappling and Sifu Grados and didn't find anything about his student stating that he needs "ground game". Found this cool video though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2iuOjgyTbI

It is a muscly black guy - I think it is under 'Grados cage student'
He basically says that he won a fight by submission and yet still has a lot of groundwork to do


I really wish I'd found WC years ago, it would have saved me alot of money, trouble, and time in training.

If you want to train BJJ with your WT/WC, that's all a personal choice. If one just doesn't feel "well rounded" without it, then that's a personal decision. But, don't let folks that promote another art for their own benefit (I'm talking about teachers, professional instructors makeing a living off teaching, etc.) convince you that you just absolutely NEED it. I just encourage folks to make their decision based on how they feel and think about it not on what is popular, or trendy, or what many people are doing for whatever reason.
At Kamon it is done in a very fair way. The class is often divided near the end by Kevin Chan into those who want to stay in one side of the room an work on a bit of technical stuff (chi sao, lok sao) and thoe who want to work on the other side of the room with light sparring
Not everyone enjoys hitting people or getting hit so they have to be eased into it (otherwise people just get scared away). The same is with grappling. We hold seminars regularly for those who want to do it. Indeed, there are many 'old school' thinkers who are adamant they won't get taken down. They get embarrassed when I take them down with ease


But, that's just me, my personality, and may not fit everyone else. I've never been very politiacall correct, trendy, even fashionable (I've still got my metal biker jacket from High school! And wear it often! lol!), and I just hate pop culture, so I'm just a little more rebellious than some.
But, if you've come to that ultimate conclusion that your gonna mix BJJ with your WC/WT, then there you go. Do what you think is best for you. Doesn't mean I'll agree with you, and that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. Just opinion.
But, I'm not going to be convinced that that choice just needs to be made by me, that my fighting technique needs something other than WC/WT. I've got a different point of view, had different experiences, and have different knowledge.
Each to their own. :)
People again are making the mistake of focusing on BJJ. The point is that you need SOMETHING for when you do go to ground. And you will go to ground at some point in your life. Whether its by tripping over, being thrown over, being dragged down or being knocked to the ground

If you are on the ground and you have a really good spring kick (a kick from the floor) then great. If you know how to grapple then great. If you are a really good puncher when you're on the floor then great. The point is that you do need something that works and works well for when you are in that position

I can tell you now that Kevin Chan's stance is one of the best I have ever seen. So good that he easily stops me (who is three times his bodyweight)pushing him. He would be one of the hardest people to take to the floor, and yet he trains and promotes grappling arts. He dosn't need to - he could make lots of money by keeping to just wing chun. Indeed he has lost students who were too afraid to grapple or didn't like physical contact.

As I have always said, people forget that whateer art you cross train in, it will only improve your knowledge experience and often skill in the martial arts world

[dungeonworks]

Thanks Kamon. At least a handful of people "get" what this thread was meant to be about, 21 pages of posting ago....instead of trying to derail it many times by turning it into WC vs BJJ or trying to discuss wether Catfish style is better than Llama style or Earthworm is compatible with Sea Urchin....

[KamonGuy2]

Thanks Kamon. At least a handful of people "get" what this thread was meant to be about, 21 pages of posting ago....instead of trying to derail it many times by turning it into WC vs BJJ or trying to discuss wether Catfish style is better than Llama style or Earthworm is compatible with Sea Urchin....

Or Pirates vs Ninjas - ooo arggghhhh matey

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Ninjas would definately win...

[Yoshiyahu]

Not alll branches of Wing Chun practice Eagle claw techniques. Some do.

Some don't...

But Eagle claw is best use on the throat in my opinion....wow...



could be very good. ;)
How about eagle claw? lol!
I had an eagle claw guy snatch my wrist and forearm at the speed of light in the most painful way one time! He was just a little old man, didn't know he'd move that fast. I told him I trained WC (not knowing about the eagle claw and WC thing. lol) and he just snatched me! ouch!
That's pretty neat stuff too.

[Si-Je]

Is there a connection between Eagle Claw and Bak Mei somehow somewhere and Wing Chun? Does either relate to Wing Chun? I saw Eddie Chong mentions Bak Mei on his site but never heard of any Wing Chun relation but some of the videos look like video I seen on Eagle Claw.

There may be. All I know is that Eagle Claw and Wing Chun have fought to the death and hated eachother for years. They used to fight on the rooftops in challenge matches all the time (may still they do?)
They could have "stolen" from eachother because of all the fighting with one another. That would make sence, know your enemy.

To MJS: the "sprawl" is not unique to BJJ or MMA. Chinese wrestling does something like this, JJJ we did variants of it, Zapota does it, etc...
The way he pins the guys head with the knees as he punches the ribs is akin to anti-grappling (only you'd chainpunch the back of the head and neck. He's following the rules of the sport by punching the sides of the head.)
The way he's always working to get back to his feet is true to anti-grappling concepts and intention.

I just found another video of him wrestling a guy in a ring. Don't know what that is about, guess he was competing in a wrestling match. He never hits the guy. bummer. painful.
But, until I can find a better example in the ring, he'll have to do. :)

Here's a WT guy in the yellow shorts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LckLfb5nLAM

Love the Russians! The guy in the Green shirt is VT, and fights what looks like a "non-compliant" MMA/MT style attacker. Doesn't get taken down. But...
VT dude needs that Dai Sau, he gets hit with hook punch EVERY time! I like the spinning back kick that led to a takedown. very nice. Make Si-Je happy. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBjRvUqyZSQ

I like this one too. Tell me if you train like this you can't handle the "ring"? And yes, WT/WC has head and neck "throws and takedowns".
The "sleeper choke" or rear pull back choke is not origional to BJJ, grappling or MMA. (why they call it the "rear naked choke" I don't know, not sure if I really want to either. )
It's been around for a loooooooog time. :) They use some anti-grappling in here too. What you MMA guys like to call "ground and pound." lol! That's exactly what it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id-UIcxMJNQ

[KamonGuy2]

Can I just point out that Emin Bosteppi is trained in BJJ

Point being that Bosteppi is an advocate/creator of 'anti grappling' but the anti - grappling stuff has stemmed from BJJ, Judo and street training/experience

[MJS]

Can I just point out that Emin Bosteppi is trained in BJJ

Point being that Bosteppi is an advocate/creator of 'anti grappling' but the anti - grappling stuff has stemmed from BJJ, Judo and street training/experience

Question for you. Am I safe to assume that there is 'anti grappling' in other WC groups aside from Emins, or is this something just limited to Emin?

[MJS]

To MJS: the "sprawl" is not unique to BJJ or MMA. Chinese wrestling does something like this, JJJ we did variants of it, Zapota does it, etc...
The way he pins the guys head with the knees as he punches the ribs is akin to anti-grappling (only you'd chainpunch the back of the head and neck. He's following the rules of the sport by punching the sides of the head.)
The way he's always working to get back to his feet is true to anti-grappling concepts and intention.

I never said that it was limited to BJJ, however, you just listed a few grappling arts yourself, so in essance, you're proving my point for me....that much of the ground stuff that we see, is derived from some sort of grappling art. You will also notice, or maybe not, seeing that I've had to repeat myself more than a few times, that I've mentioned other grappling arts other than BJJ. You seem to harp on that, even though I've mentioned Judo, Sambo and Wrestling.

I've also commented that the 'anti grappling' is not limited to WC either. The 'dirty fighting' that you and I have talked about in this thread, is used in many arts. If we stop and think about it, if we look at the word 'anti' is means something that is against. So, the use of that is to avoid actually grappling. So you're using methods to avoid the takedown, methods to avoid a submission, etc. Watch Chuck Liddell. Amazing how he avoids the takedown. Watch the UFC fight with Maurice Smith and Mark Coleman. Amazing how Smith was not submitted and frustrated the hell out of Coleman. Both fighters, Chuck and Maurice, have ground experience. They're using their grappling knowledge (anti grappling) to avoid the ground and/or a submission. Its really no different than when I use a Kenpo defense to avoid the grappling attack.

I also think that this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emin_Boztepe) is pretty interesting. Hmm..looks like Boztepe is not against cross training. He lists TKD, Shotokan, MT, boxing, Turkish freestyle wrestling and Escrima.


I just found another video of him wrestling a guy in a ring. Don't know what that is about, guess he was competing in a wrestling match. He never hits the guy. bummer. painful.
But, until I can find a better example in the ring, he'll have to do. :)

Here's a WT guy in the yellow shorts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LckLfb5nLAM

Love the Russians! The guy in the Green shirt is VT, and fights what looks like a "non-compliant" MMA/MT style attacker. Doesn't get taken down. But...
VT dude needs that Dai Sau, he gets hit with hook punch EVERY time! I like the spinning back kick that led to a takedown. very nice. Make Si-Je happy. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBjRvUqyZSQ

I like this one too. Tell me if you train like this you can't handle the "ring"? And yes, WT/WC has head and neck "throws and takedowns".
The "sleeper choke" or rear pull back choke is not origional to BJJ, grappling or MMA. (why they call it the "rear naked choke" I don't know, not sure if I really want to either. )
It's been around for a loooooooog time. :) They use some anti-grappling in here too. What you MMA guys like to call "ground and pound." lol! That's exactly what it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id-UIcxMJNQ

Interesting clips.

[Si-Je]

You still just don't understand what anti-grappling is.
You don't grapple, you don't wrestle the opponent. That would be grappling.
I found this video today, it shows anti-grappling really well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1EEE0LXwH0

As for Emin "cross-training", he's been in MA for years. He studied turkish wrestling (well, he's turkish, makes sense.) TKD, Boxing, but those were at different times in his MA training. His self defense is soley based on WT and Escrima, says so in the very wikipedia article you just posted. As for BJJ training, he's said he trains with people that study BJJ. Now do you really think he actually signed up for BJJ classes at some BJJ dojo? With all the history he has with those guys? lol! That would be fun to see! :)

Here's some guys training to get out of head locks and armbars. Sensitivity training rolling on the floor with the head locks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWXtPIiLNO4

This one he punches the guy while he's on his back. Learn to punch from a short range. Has some different takedown defenses using stance, abduction, and footwork. cool video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlozyMKZtdo

teaching you how to defend aganst the "clinch" or front bear hug, pre-emptive strike. They clinch they eat an elbow or two. :) You don't "clinch" them back, you don't wrestle them back, you strike, you flow, you re-direct. You MMA/BJJ guys can have the underhook position, I want my arms on top so I can elbow/strike the opponent. I'm not looking to hug them back. anti-grappling. From the underhook position you can't strike the head or much of anything. close quarters fighting. anti-grappling, striking at grappling range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNAQr9ZZqgY

If you want to use BJJ or grappling at this range, that's your cup of tea. I take a striking art, and this flows with and complements my training in WT/WC better than using BJJ. I guess most people don't stay in WC/WT long enough to learn this range, I don't know. I've been studying for what? 3-4 years now and am just getting into this range for striking. (but, I had a pregnancy so a year off training) so, 2-3 years in WT/WC and getting into the good stuff and striking in grappling range.
You can add BJJ to your WC/WT fighting style. I like the anti-grappling.

[MJS]

You still just don't understand what anti-grappling is.
You don't grapple, you don't wrestle the opponent. That would be grappling.

And you still don't seem to understand that just because I talk about a grappling art, does not mean that in a real fight, I'd spend time looking to roll and trying to find a submission. I've said it before, yet you seem to miss it. The idea of working with a grappler, for me, is to better my Kenpo defenses against a grappler. As I've said many times before, if you look at my defense, it'll still look Kenpo, not BJJ. If I do end up on the ground, my goal is to do what I need to, to get back to my feet. Again, just because I crosstrain in BJJ, does not mean I'm turning it into a BJJ match. I would do just what you see in that clip....you find yourself in the mount...instead of looking for that armlock, punch, kick, stomp, elbow...whatever...and get back up.

Really, I don't know what the issue is here. Not quite sure why you are not getting this.





As for Emin "cross-training", he's been in MA for years. He studied turkish wrestling (well, he's turkish, makes sense.) TKD, Boxing, but those were at different times in his MA training. His self defense is soley based on WT and Escrima, says so in the very wikipedia article you just posted. As for BJJ training, he's said he trains with people that study BJJ. Now do you really think he actually signed up for BJJ classes at some BJJ dojo? With all the history he has with those guys? lol! That would be fun to see! :)

Fact of the matter is, is that he still crosstrained. He still looked at other arts. Of course, if he didn't find some value in the Escrima, why would he keep training and teaching it? Obviously he sees some value in it, as far as the weapons work goes. As for the BJJ...I never said that he joined a school. Man, you're still missing my point. He, like I, works with BJJ people. He does it probably to improve his 'anti grappling' and I do it to improve my Kenpo takedown/grappling techniques. Its the same thing. For the record, I haven't been to my BJJ gym in quite some time, yet I still get together with guys that grapple and train.


Here's some guys training to get out of head locks and armbars. Sensitivity training rolling on the floor with the head locks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWXtPIiLNO4

This one he punches the guy while he's on his back. Learn to punch from a short range. Has some different takedown defenses using stance, abduction, and footwork. cool video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlozyMKZtdo

teaching you how to defend aganst the "clinch" or front bear hug, pre-emptive strike. They clinch they eat an elbow or two. :) You don't "clinch" them back, you don't wrestle them back, you strike, you flow, you re-direct. You MMA/BJJ guys can have the underhook position, I want my arms on top so I can elbow/strike the opponent. I'm not looking to hug them back. anti-grappling. From the underhook position you can't strike the head or much of anything. close quarters fighting. anti-grappling, striking at grappling range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNAQr9ZZqgY

If you want to use BJJ or grappling at this range, that's your cup of tea. I take a striking art, and this flows with and complements my training in WT/WC better than using BJJ. I guess most people don't stay in WC/WT long enough to learn this range, I don't know. I've been studying for what? 3-4 years now and am just getting into this range for striking. (but, I had a pregnancy so a year off training) so, 2-3 years in WT/WC and getting into the good stuff and striking in grappling range.
You can add BJJ to your WC/WT fighting style. I like the anti-grappling.

Still missing my point. And really I don't know why, because at this point, it seems like you and I are more on the same page than it seems, yet I still think you're confusing what I'm saying. I simply crosstrain/reference to better my stand up art of Kenpo. Do I make time to just grapple? Sure. But, when I spar with my Kenpo teacher, we gear up and go at it...hard, with contact. He'll try to come in and clinch and I'll put the Kenpo principles to use, as well as use elbows, knees, etc. There are times when, for the sake of the training, I'll let him get me in the bear hug. Knees, elbows...you name it, it is all coming out. :)

I'm doing the exact same thing that you're suggesting. You're using your WC and I'm using my Kenpo...thats the only difference. :)

I'll have someone put me in the sidemount. I'll look for ways to use Kenpo. Never said it was easy, but I try. I may fall back on the BJJ escape for a moment, then its right back to the Kenpo.

Please, when you're reading this, take the time to really read and understand what I'm saying. Like I said, we are more on the same page than it seems. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

Anti Grappling or Chin Na or what ever else you want to call it has always been apart of Wing Chun. Remember the early Wing Chun fighters fought various styles and people. So they always came up against wrestlers. I have posted some fights between wrestlers on here in the pass. So Wing Chun even before Yip Man has always included techniques for wrestlers and grapplers. In fact WC contains some grappling. We call it Judo(Take Downs) and Chin Na(Wrist and Arm Locks). Anyway the WC terms are different but I sharing words you all know about. But Wing Chun has always included counter to going to the ground before I was born.

But many people have studied other arts before they come to WC so many people have ground experience even before coming to WC. Which could be said about the five elders who created WC. Some wrestling or grappling was probably including then too.

[Nolerama]

Yoshiyahu, could you come by the gym and show us some of these techniques? I'm really interested in getting another perspective on anti grappling.

[Si-Je]

Oh, MJS, I understand why your doing what your doing, and I understand that you train against other stylists to improve your Kempo. I understand you like to study BJJ to add to your fighting knowledge.
I agree with half of what your doing.
I agree with training against or with other stylists. I just don't prefer crosstraining.
Done, there. That's all.
Each to their own. ;)
I just found some cool anti-grappling (whatever you want to call it, we just call it WC ground fighting because the name anti-grappling just riles people all up. As I've learned by chatting on this board. :) Better to make the PC fupa's on a chat board than with a student.)
And I wanted to share. These weren't online until recently, or I just couldn't find them. Most of these are from Germany, and such and the words "anti-grappling" in search on youtube won't bring them up.
But, that be what their doing.
This is my preference when it comes to ground fighting. And these guys train this stuff on the hard floor to prepare you for the street. ouch.

[MJS]

Oh, MJS, I understand why your doing what your doing, and I understand that you train against other stylists to improve your Kempo. I understand you like to study BJJ to add to your fighting knowledge.
I agree with half of what your doing.
I agree with training against or with other stylists. I just don't prefer crosstraining.
Done, there. That's all.
Each to their own. ;)

I do what I do for a number of reasons. Like you, what we do works for us. I enjoy learning. :) I am in no rush for anything. I'm not a rank whore. When it comes, it comes. Some arts, I'm just interested in training and learning and have no desire to test for rank. If I can take something from someone or from an art, and make my skills better, I'm going to do it, and IMHO, we'd be crazy not to. But hey, if someone doesn't want to, thats their loss, my gain. :)




I just found some cool anti-grappling (whatever you want to call it, we just call it WC ground fighting because the name anti-grappling just riles people all up. As I've learned by chatting on this board. :) Better to make the PC fupa's on a chat board than with a student.)
And I wanted to share. These weren't online until recently, or I just couldn't find them. Most of these are from Germany, and such and the words "anti-grappling" in search on youtube won't bring them up.
But, that be what their doing.
This is my preference when it comes to ground fighting. And these guys train this stuff on the hard floor to prepare you for the street. ouch.

The term doesn't rile me up..lol. It just amazes me, how we can have people pretty much agreeing on something, yet someone always finds a way to twist something or totally miss the point of whats being said. Oh well, that happens on forums. Its hard to always type and hope that the people reading will comprehend whats being said. As far as the clips go...I enjoyed them. When I have a bit more time, I plan on watching them again. Like I said, the last few posts seem to find us agreeing, but unfortunately, I still don't think you're seeing that.

Man, 20+ pages and its still a round and round debate. If this thread would only die.....

[Si-Je]

I think we do that alot! lol!
We argue but we're saying the same thing, just a different way. Just have a different approach to explaining it.
Communication is such an art, and communicating in this medium takes some doin' too. :)
You can't hear the inflection, or tone, so sometimes major points in a conversation are missed, or misintrepreted.
The emot's help, but I find that they end up covering my entire post! lol!

As for rank, I've never been big on that. I like WT/WC because it barely has a ranking system. No belts.
I love MA and like learning and training new stuff from new arts too. But, my big "obession" is WC/WT right now. lol!
I've kinda explored alot of the other stuff years ago when I was younger. I'd love to learn Capoerta, but, I'm not flexable like I was at 18. So that's probably out. But, I still think it's cool. I like JJJ and Judo still, but working for a living doing crappy work gave me a lower back injury, so that's pretty much out for me too. That's okay, I've done it before now, it's just time for me to do other style. We are attracted to arts that fit us and our limitations, strengths, mindsetts, and philosophies. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

Most definitely...I havent been yet...because I need to invest in better mouth piece...the two i got for walmart don't fit correctly. But I am coming...I didnt want to waste my free class an not have everything so i could spar with some of you all...


I havent forgot....been lazy lately...with the weather and colds...lol...



Yoshiyahu, could you come by the gym and show us some of these techniques? I'm really interested in getting another perspective on anti grappling.

[KamonGuy2]

MJS is making some very good points which seem to be falling on deaf ears.

If I go and train with someone who does Judo and teaches me Judo, I am training Judo

If Emin trained with people who did BJJ and learnt BJJ from them then that is really no different from going to a school and doing BJJ classes
My BJJ training is 30% classwork, 70% training with my friend who is a purple belt

Grappling is grappling. It is no good disguising it as anti grappling or chin na. Chin na is not wing chun. People assert that it is part of wing chun. It is not. No more than escrima is part of wing chun and yet people often include it in their system

Anti-grappling concepts come from BJJ and Judo, simple as that.

In a real life scenario you may not do an arm bar or triangle choke purely because your opponents friends can kick you whilst you are in that position. But there are many important aspects in BJJ that are essential for street confrontation.

Sije you seem very sure of yourself and your ability not to get taken down. So I offer you this friendly challenge. If you are ever in the UK, stop by my school and I'll try to take you down and you can use your anti grappling. If I don't get you to the floor I'll buy you a chocolate bar.

When you think of the logistics of a 25 stone guy charging in at a 10 stone person, do you really think that the 10 stone person is going to resist being picked up and dumped to the floor or mowed down?

Seriously?

[Hagakure]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkkfTOfcZtA

The above link it to a video with a great camera angle my point is based from....that point being that BJJ and WC/T can easily flow together. They both are designed for the smaller fighter to be a step more equal to a larger and likely stronger opponent. This video shows a simple sweep by Rener Gracie to off balance and reverse position from an attacker that has you fully mounted. This technique here has trapping (not WC/T, but not all that different is the intent of the trap), not just with hands but legs as well.

In my opinion, I think BJJ would be a great addition to Wing Chun/Tsun and not all that difficult for the 'Chunner to grasp whilst staying to the 'Chun principles in most cases.

My former Wing Chun sifu combines both of these arts very well I believe. He's studied Wing Chun for around 20 years, and has over the last 10 or so incorporated BJJ very nicely. When in a Wing Chun class with him, he only ever touched on the Wing Chun, (that's what he was being paid for) but he was open enough to occassionally suggest "BJJ moves" in some circumstances. ;)

[MJS]

MJS is making some very good points which seem to be falling on deaf ears.

If I go and train with someone who does Judo and teaches me Judo, I am training Judo

If Emin trained with people who did BJJ and learnt BJJ from them then that is really no different from going to a school and doing BJJ classes
My BJJ training is 30% classwork, 70% training with my friend who is a purple belt

Grappling is grappling. It is no good disguising it as anti grappling or chin na. Chin na is not wing chun. People assert that it is part of wing chun. It is not. No more than escrima is part of wing chun and yet people often include it in their system

Anti-grappling concepts come from BJJ and Judo, simple as that.

In a real life scenario you may not do an arm bar or triangle choke purely because your opponents friends can kick you whilst you are in that position. But there are many important aspects in BJJ that are essential for street confrontation.

Sije you seem very sure of yourself and your ability not to get taken down. So I offer you this friendly challenge. If you are ever in the UK, stop by my school and I'll try to take you down and you can use your anti grappling. If I don't get you to the floor I'll buy you a chocolate bar.

When you think of the logistics of a 25 stone guy charging in at a 10 stone person, do you really think that the 10 stone person is going to resist being picked up and dumped to the floor or mowed down?

Seriously?

Thanks. :) I think its safe to say that we're all passionate about the arts that we study. Myself, I like to give credit, where credit is due. In other words, if something is Arnis or BJJ, I don't try to mislead someone into thinking that its Kenpo. While I do try to use my base art, I don't have any issues with admitting that it may not have as good an asnwer as BJJ. So, while I try to stick to Kenpo, if I was doing a takedown defense, if things start to go south, I have no issues with switching to BJJ.

I don't understand why people are in this mindset that they can look outside the box, and that if Master so and so said it'll work, then it must. I wish that people would humble themselves a bit and open their eyes to the fact that sometimes, it necessary to admit that A is lacking so we may need to look at B for the solution. As I said in a recent post here, if BJJ is what it takes to get me out of the jam, because Kenpo isn't working, who the hell cares. If it works I'm going to use it. :)

As you said, there are many aspects from BJJ that can be applied standing. People hear BJJ and right away, assume that it must be done on the ground. That IMO, shows the lack of understanding. There are a few things that can be done from an upright position. May need to modify it slightly, but it'll still work. :)

As I also pointed out in another post, if we look at some of the top MMA guys today, such as Chuck, we'll see a wonderful display of him avoiding a takedown. He's using concepts from grappling to aid him. And as far as people saying that they'll never go down....well, must be nice to be able to predict the outcome of things. I mean, I'm sure people never thought they'd get taken down by Royce, yet thats exactly where they landed.

If plan A fails, we better have a plan B, C, D, and E to fall back on.

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.kungfulifestyle.com/

Takedowns, Grappling and anti take downs are apart of wing chun...check out the link above...

Anyway...if your intent is take someone to ground then eventually you might accomplish that. If there goal is to get off the floor quickly then they probably will. If there goal is to knock you out before you can take them down. Then they probably will..The issue is you have to practice practice practice...Someone doing take downs every week is going to have an advantage on someone doing anti take downs once a month. An vice versa...Someone sparring wrestlers,strikers and grapplers everyday will have an advantage over someone who only spars people of there style once a week. But this is my opinion. I don't spar every day yet...So I am merely speaking from my own view point of were I want to be. I want to spar atleast five times a week if possible...

Thats my goal.


MJS is making some very good points which seem to be falling on deaf ears.

If I go and train with someone who does Judo and teaches me Judo, I am training Judo

If Emin trained with people who did BJJ and learnt BJJ from them then that is really no different from going to a school and doing BJJ classes
My BJJ training is 30% classwork, 70% training with my friend who is a purple belt

Grappling is grappling. It is no good disguising it as anti grappling or chin na. Chin na is not wing chun. People assert that it is part of wing chun. It is not. No more than escrima is part of wing chun and yet people often include it in their system

Anti-grappling concepts come from BJJ and Judo, simple as that.

In a real life scenario you may not do an arm bar or triangle choke purely because your opponents friends can kick you whilst you are in that position. But there are many important aspects in BJJ that are essential for street confrontation.

Sije you seem very sure of yourself and your ability not to get taken down. So I offer you this friendly challenge. If you are ever in the UK, stop by my school and I'll try to take you down and you can use your anti grappling. If I don't get you to the floor I'll buy you a chocolate bar.

When you think of the logistics of a 25 stone guy charging in at a 10 stone person, do you really think that the 10 stone person is going to resist being picked up and dumped to the floor or mowed down?

Seriously?

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Thats a very smart way of looking at things in my opinion.

[Si-Je]

Kamon Guy. You and many grapplers always seem to make the same assumption that WC'ers are saying "well never be taken to the ground" because of focus on takedown defense, rooting, and abduction. This is not what I have EVER said.
Sure a grappler may take me down, and you know what? I'll probably allow it and not fight the takedown. That would go against WC principles to fight strength with strength.
If it can be thwarted with simple rooting while punching their head off great, if it can be re-directed by using WC/WT takedown defense then groovy. If not, then you go with it.
But, once on the ground my goals in fighting are the same as in standing. I want to punch, knee, elbow, kick, etc. I use chi sau, sensitivity, entire body, flow, and re-direction of the opponent's force.
I do NOT grab the grappler, I do not wrestler the wrestler, I do not resist against the "joint locks" of the BJJ stylist. I still focus on striking and deflection, and getting up off the ground. You flow with, you re-direct.

If you look at WT ground fighting technique and try to compare it to grappling you'll miss the entire technique. It is a style all to it's own, and is not comparable to grappling. It uses different techniques and different principles. When you work your legs on the ground like you do chi sau with your arms, you'll get it.
But, many people see this stuff online in videos and they can't see past the nose on their face. It's something you really have to feel to understand, just like anything else in WC/WT.

And you know? So what if Sifu Emin studied BJJ and other grappling arts. I take that for what it's worth. He's done the research and work on the anti-grappling, so I don't need to waste money going to another school or training another style from the ground up.
Sure, I'll train with BJJ, grappling, and wrestling guys as much as possible, but I'm not paying dues at their clubs. lol! And this is great training. For rarely do I get to use anti-grappling on someone that fights with the grapplers stiffness, use of brute strength, and mentality. Because as soon as a student comes in that takes that stuff and they get exposed to the anti-grappling they quickly change styles and stop wrestling altogether.

Even the kid we trained that was ON the wrestling team completely stopped using his wrestling in class. And he used the anti-grappling on his wrestling teammates to test it out further. And, guess what? He loved the stuff.
But, like I said, until you work with it you'll not understand it at all. It's like explaining every nuance and movement in chi sau in text online.
I could write a book and understaning would still be lost.

Take what you want, train how you want, crosstrain whatever you feel you need to do. I'm good. I'll just stick with what I'm being taught. It's been proven before my very eyes several times. So, I'm convinced. :)

p.s. chin na has been apart of WC forever. Oh, and if I ever get to the UK and you can't take me down they you'll owe me a pint! lol! ;)

[jarrod]

For rarely do I get to use anti-grappling on someone that fights with the grapplers stiffness, use of brute strength, and mentality.

statements like this are really insulting, & it also lets me know that you really don't even have a rudimentary understanding of grappling. i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.

i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.

carry on.

jf

[Eru Ilúvatar]

This is getting ridiculous. 22pages and as MJS noted you seem to be speaking the same thing.

I think the point that Kamon was trying to make was that most WC focuses on close-quarter stand up fighting. Some WC schools have also implemented anti-grapling to the curiculum(as Boztepe for example) and at my school we did groundfighting according to WC principals too for example. But the point is that allthough WC has principals and concepts, that in my opinion, could be applyed to virtualy anything, the WC curiculum in most schools teaches you only how to deal with bridging and close quarter combat. Now, as we all agreed groundfighting is an important aspect of fighting. The question now is how to approach it/how to best train for it. All that people here are saying is that training arts that are in some examples much older than WC and have specialised in groundfighting for all those hundreds of year have some very useful things to offer in the area of groundfighting. Now, I haven't trained any groundfighting art in particular but I wouldn't be suprised if some had a very WC approach to fighting. Afterall, as we said before, inteligent principals such as in WC can be found in many other arts. Especialy the ones that work. Now even if the groundfighting art you would hypotheticly go train isn't completely to your liking I'm sure that once you realy understand WC you can adapt those techniques to your WC way of thinking. For example if BJJ teaches you how to get out of a mess such as when a guy is mounted on your back and then does an armbar, I'm sure it's not such a big problem to adapt that technique so that when you get out of that mess with a good BJJ technique(which would probably be WC in principal anyway) you do thoat strikes and elbows to the face instead of the armbar. As you (or was it your hubbie?) said before; other groundfighting arts have helped you quite a bit to understand the WC approach to groundfighting better.

All I'm saying is that in my case for example we kind of had to look at every situation on the ground and think about what technique in groundfighting would be the msot WC approach to the situation. We didn't realy have a groundfighting curiculum that we could look at. Now an art that specialises in groundfighting, would in my opinion help greatly. And as I said, if it works, it probably is WC(more or less) anyway!

As for the Ebmas groundfighting; from what I trained of it and seen of it it looks fantastic and like something it would realy work! We even tryed it on trained graplers and it worked. One thing that bothers me tho is that this anti-grapling techniques in most cases assume that you'll be lying there on the ground and the grappler will come at you from afar. Or that he will try to take you down from far away instead of from trappying range for example while throwing a few missguiding punches first. I just think that when you end up on the ground for some reason you'll probably have that guy on top of you right away (having you in a screwed situation) and not comming at you from 2 meters away. Now when you're allaeady on the ground in some random screwed up situation all that grapling, BJJ training and ground sensitivity would sure be helpful in my opinion.

It's like saying; no need for a Karate guy to train WC sensitivity, WC trapping, close quarter combat or WC in general as after a Karate guy traines for 25 years his techniques will probably look like WC anyway. Now wouldn't have been helpful if that Karate guy just took WC for 5 years and train on a curiculum that focuses on that kind of stuff instead of in most cases getting there all by himself. Same thing goes for groundfighting arts. They specialise in that kind of stuff instead of most WC schools that don't. Now, Si-Je, you're saying that your school has a great grapling/anti-grapling curiculum allready but as I understand it it's in a huge way thatnks to you Sifus training in grapling arts. I bet if he hadnt your anti-grapling would have sucked :) Same goes for Boztepe(he trained arts that specialise in groundfighting)

I wanted to say a few other things but this is getting to long as it is allready so I'm gonna stop now.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.

i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.

carry on.

jf

Ha, you see! Sounds very WC-ish to me.

[Si-Je]

statements like this are really insulting, & it also lets me know that you really don't even have a rudimentary understanding of grappling. i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.

i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.

carry on.

jf

Ju-Jitsu means "gentle art". As the japanese translation goes. I've got plenty of background in "grappling" dear. If three years isn't enough for you then what is?

[Steve]

Ju-Jitsu means "gentle art". As the japanese translation goes. I've got plenty of background in "grappling" dear. If three years isn't enough for you then what is?And once again, you've completely missed the point, arguing semantics rather than thinking about the substance.

[jarrod]

Ju-Jitsu means "gentle art". As the japanese translation goes. I've got plenty of background in "grappling" dear. If three years isn't enough for you then what is?

three years in one of the hundreds of styles of jujitsu, which is only one of hundreds of styles of grappling, tells me you don't have even a rudimentary knowledge of grappling.

jf

[dungeonworks]

statements like this are really insulting, & it also lets me know that you really don't even have a rudimentary understanding of grappling. i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.

i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.

carry on.

jf

I think she described my grappling in her earlier post. LOL They must grapple much differently in Si-Je's area because the guys I used to roll with would barely be breathing much heavier than at rest while I sucked wind like I was dying!

Si-Je, BJJ guys are all about efficiency and leverage over strength. Please see the first 5 UFC's for various references.

[Si-Je]

Sifu showed me how to get out of a standing clinch with your back up against a wall using Chun Kiu technique. A little pivot and keeping your arms on top (no underhooking) and palm striking the opponent's sid eof the head. Worked beautifully.
It does seem that alot of anit-grappling technique does focus on "preventative" measures focusing on keeping the opponent away from afar.
But, we train doing chi sau on our backs while the opponent is in a mount position or between the legs too. This helps you stay out of armbars and to get out of them too.
Any ju-jitsu stylist if allowed to "lock out" on you your in big trouble and your chances of getting out at that point are slim. But even when I trained JJJ our counters for getting out of holds were largely "preventative" too. Not hardly did they ever teach you how to escape from a fully braced and locked out joint lock.
But, what Sifu's been showing me uses tan sau to get out of joint locks that art "locked out" that have you in a "submissive" position already. This has blown my mind. Years of training to "submit" when the joint is compromised rather than be broken has been and still is hard to fight against. But the more I train it the more natural it is to get out of those positions. You just have to re-train your thinking, the body will follow the mind every time.
I can't explain it in text. It's too weird. But the fact that I can now escape a full on koto gashie from a standing position without jumping over my whole arm is just amazing to me!
The fact that I can escape the all-time BJJ favorite armbar on the ground is even more awesome! Even after they have you totally flexed. Tan Sau, foreward force and corkscrew the body and your out.
Others like the butterfly guard and the other BJJ grappling guard, I love the WC "guard" (as I call it) for it's simply WC basic stance with abduction. You do this while on your back with an opponent between your legs and their not getting into strike, grapple, choke, or armbar you. Simple as that, I've done it on purple belts. They just can't "pass the guard". Unless they try to go to the side then you "leg chi sau" comes into play.
So, instead of locking my ankles around the guys waiste, I dig my knees into their torso and put my feet shoulder width apart, not touching them, just like when your standing only your feet are in the air. From here you roll them, kick, and are "in guard".
If they try to pry the knees apart (which they always do when they find they can't use their body weight to break through) then their clearly not able to attack you. you hit them, their hands are busy. If not, so what? You flow with your legs, torso, and arms. your arms are free to defend, attack, or whatever you need just like when standing. You roll them over with your legs.
If their too heavy, (or a good wrestler and root under you) you plant those feet at their hips and kick back, or put one foot on their knee (that's on the floor) and the other on the hip. Kick and twist towards the knee side and voila! they roll just great, and your able to get do that WC situp while chainpunching (the ladies in my WC cardio class loved that move! Really gives you a workout).

[Steve]

I think she described my grappling in her earlier post. LOL They must grapple much differently in Si-Je's area because the guys I used to roll with would barely be breathing much heavier than at rest while I sucked wind like I was dying!

Si-Je, BJJ guys are all about efficiency and leverage over strength. Please see the first 5 UFC's for various references.I think it's important to note here that individuals will have varying degrees of skill. Dungeonworks touches on this. I'm better than I was as a white belt. I use much less strength than I used to. I try to stay relaxed. It's what we strive for. I'm not as good at it as some. I'm better than others. I have a long way to go.

Just as someone who trains WC will improve. You can't walk into a WC school and just magically fight like Bruce Lee, but you might not know it listening to the comments in this forum. Whenever Si-Je in particular speaks about WC, it's from the position of ideal circumstances. It's never "I" can do X, Y, or Z using my Wing Chun. Rather, "Wing Chun" can do "X, Y, or Z" or in some cases, "My Sifu can do X, Y, and Z."

On the flip side, whenever grappling is brought up, it's from the worst case scenario: grapplers grunt, have hairy knuckles and only know how to use their strength.

I'm not saying that Si-Je's WC is weak or anything like that. I'm saying that if we're to have a useful comparison of "grappling" and "anti-grappling" that you have to consider grappling and anti-grappling at a similar skill level, be that expert or beginner. You can't compare beginner level grappling to advanced anti-grappling and expect to come to any useful conclusion.

[MJS]

statements like this are really insulting, & it also lets me know that you really don't even have a rudimentary understanding of grappling. i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.

i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.

carry on.

jf

Yup, this is the point that I've been trying to make all along. I find it soooo amusing how people come on here and say that grappling is all about strength, that it won't work for a smaller person....yet, I posted numerous links to prove that a smaller person CAN do it. Guess those went un-noticed, just like everything else.

Good post though. 2 thumbs up bro! :)

[MJS]

Ju-Jitsu means "gentle art". As the japanese translation goes. I've got plenty of background in "grappling" dear. If three years isn't enough for you then what is?

Could have fooled me. Interestingly enough, there're people on here, who I'd bet have more time than that, yet you're still arguing with them.

[MJS]

I think she described my grappling in her earlier post. LOL They must grapple much differently in Si-Je's area because the guys I used to roll with would barely be breathing much heavier than at rest while I sucked wind like I was dying!

Si-Je, BJJ guys are all about efficiency and leverage over strength. Please see the first 5 UFC's for various references.

Yup, more posts that solidify what I was trying to say. :) I can relate to what you said above though....so many times I'd find myself on the bottom, struggling, and the top guy, all relaxed, felt like 1,000 lbs. LOL!

[Si-Je]

Just posting and talking about WC groundfighting technique. Giving personal experiences to folks who are interested. Gave examples of what I felt from other BJJ guys, wrestlers (whom I have a harder time with) ;)

But a particular group of folks keep assuming that I've never ever trained or worked with stylists of other arts, especially grapplers and MMA guys, boxers, etc. Or that I've got any knowledge in any other art than WC/WT.
Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 10. I like, know stuff. lol!
But, I've got different views than some if not many. That works out okay for me. This is a great way to learn about the collective opinion and consciousness of martial artists from all over the world. And exposure to them in a way I'd never get. And that's great for when I'm talking to prospective students. I already know more of what they think about fighting, what they think works, why, and what questions they will ask.
For all of these things are repeated in this forum, and I get to learn exactly what folks really think in a way people don't often say in person.
This way I can be a better teacher, and answer student's questions more thouroghly. Usually, before they ask the question. Pre-emptively covering what they would ask before they ask it.
Groovy stuff.

[Steve]

Any ju-jitsu stylist if allowed to "lock out" on you your in big trouble and your chances of getting out at that point are slim. But even when I trained JJJ our counters for getting out of holds were largely "preventative" too. Not hardly did they ever teach you how to escape from a fully braced and locked out joint lock. We just call this defense. Counters start at "In time" counters where you see it coming and make choices. We also work on counters that are late, where you've managed to get into trouble. There are also last ditch counters, where you've managed to allow yourself to get all the way locked out and have basically one chance to escape. Kind of a good, better, best situation... always best to defend well and avoid having to counter at all.

But, what Sifu's been showing me uses tan sau to get out of joint locks that art "locked out" that have you in a "submissive" position already. This has blown my mind. Years of training to "submit" when the joint is compromised rather than be broken has been and still is hard to fight against. But the more I train it the more natural it is to get out of those positions. You just have to re-train your thinking, the body will follow the mind every time.
I can't explain it in text. It's too weird. But the fact that I can now escape a full on koto gashie from a standing position without jumping over my whole arm is just amazing to me!This sounds very interesting and something I'd really be interested in seeing.

The fact that I can escape the all-time BJJ favorite armbar on the ground is even more awesome! Even after they have you totally flexed. If you're totally flexed, you're about a 1/2 inch or so from losing your elbow. Tan Sau, foreward force and corkscrew the body and your out. I am reminded of the many times in sparring with people who are much less experienced, and releasing multiple submissions because they have no idea how much danger they were really in. They just don't know what they don't know. If I have your arm fully locked out, heels in, knees together, with a handshake grip on your hand to keep you from turning your arm other than thumb up, you can roll all you like. I would roll with you. Hopefully, you wouldn't roll to your stomach because face down armbars allow for much more leverage against the joint as I no longer have the ground blocking me from arching backward.

It's not uncommon to "fit" an armbar in guard, roll through to my stomach, then over to my back to finish.

Others like the butterfly guard and the other BJJ grappling guard, I love the WC "guard" (as I call it) for it's simply WC basic stance with abduction. You do this while on your back with an opponent between your legs and their not getting into strike, grapple, choke, or armbar you. Simple as that, I've done it on purple belts. So... now you crosstrain in BJJ, too? Where the heck did these purple belts come from??? And why don't they know how to control a person's legs at the knees and execute a basic standing guard pass without using their "body weight"?
If their too heavy, (or a good wrestler and root under you) you plant those feet at their hips and kick backAnd they straight ankle lock you (which is BJJ, but also Sambo, Judo and Catch Wrestling),
or put one foot on their knee (that's on the floor) and the other on the hip. And they kneeslide/kneeride to side control after driving that low leg to the ground.
Kick and twist towards the knee side and voila! they roll just great,Good lord. Only if they've just had a stroke.
and your able to get do that WC situp while chainpunching (the ladies in my WC cardio class loved that move! Really gives you a workout).Oh no. Okay. Please. Please, I'm begging you. Avoid articulating in too much detail the BJJ techniques because it doesn't help. I can see any of these things working on someone with very, very little to no training. I don't see these things working on anyone who has trained for more than 3 or 4 months, unless you overpower them with strength or size.

[Hagakure]

I'm confused, at what point did this entire thread become about WC V grappling? I thought it was about the combination of an effective striking art "with" a more grappling orientated one, thus the discussion of combining the best of both worlds? :deadhorse

[elder999]

I'm confused, at what point did this entire thread become about WC V grappling? I thought it was about the combination of an effective striking art "with" a more grappling orientated one, thus the discussion of combining the best of both worlds? :deadhorse


Around about post #8 (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1095527&postcount=8). Shortly after that, a few of us had an amplitude crowbar... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowbar_(circuit)):lfao:

....I'm all outta popcorn, though.....:lfao:

[dungeonworks]

Sifu showed me how to get out of a standing clinch with your back up against a wall using Chun Kiu technique. A little pivot and keeping your arms on top (no underhooking) and palm striking the opponent's sid eof the head. Worked beautifully.
It does seem that alot of anit-grappling technique does focus on "preventative" measures focusing on keeping the opponent away from afar.
But, we train doing chi sau on our backs while the opponent is in a mount position or between the legs too. This helps you stay out of armbars and to get out of them too.
Any ju-jitsu stylist if allowed to "lock out" on you your in big trouble and your chances of getting out at that point are slim. But even when I trained JJJ our counters for getting out of holds were largely "preventative" too. Not hardly did they ever teach you how to escape from a fully braced and locked out joint lock.
But, what Sifu's been showing me uses tan sau to get out of joint locks that art "locked out" that have you in a "submissive" position already. This has blown my mind. Years of training to "submit" when the joint is compromised rather than be broken has been and still is hard to fight against. But the more I train it the more natural it is to get out of those positions. You just have to re-train your thinking, the body will follow the mind every time.
I can't explain it in text. It's too weird. But the fact that I can now escape a full on koto gashie from a standing position without jumping over my whole arm is just amazing to me!
The fact that I can escape the all-time BJJ favorite armbar on the ground is even more awesome! Even after they have you totally flexed. Tan Sau, foreward force and corkscrew the body and your out.
Others like the butterfly guard and the other BJJ grappling guard, I love the WC "guard" (as I call it) for it's simply WC basic stance with abduction. You do this while on your back with an opponent between your legs and their not getting into strike, grapple, choke, or armbar you. Simple as that, I've done it on purple belts. They just can't "pass the guard". Unless they try to go to the side then you "leg chi sau" comes into play.
So, instead of locking my ankles around the guys waiste, I dig my knees into their torso and put my feet shoulder width apart, not touching them, just like when your standing only your feet are in the air. From here you roll them, kick, and are "in guard".
If they try to pry the knees apart (which they always do when they find they can't use their body weight to break through) then their clearly not able to attack you. you hit them, their hands are busy. If not, so what? You flow with your legs, torso, and arms. your arms are free to defend, attack, or whatever you need just like when standing. You roll them over with your legs.
If their too heavy, (or a good wrestler and root under you) you plant those feet at their hips and kick back, or put one foot on their knee (that's on the floor) and the other on the hip. Kick and twist towards the knee side and voila! they roll just great, and your able to get do that WC situp while chainpunching (the ladies in my WC cardio class loved that move! Really gives you a workout).


:BSmeter: is approaching meltdown! :uhyeah:

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Nothing to do with the topic but here's an interesting video I found: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfLq__054Qk&feature=related.

[Hagakure]

Around about post #8 (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1095527&postcount=8). Shortly after that, a few of us had an amplitude crowbar... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowbar_%28circuit%29):lfao:

....I'm all outta popcorn, though.....:lfao:


THAT soon eh? :D Oh dear oh dear... Me too. We should have a whip round to get more pop corn.

[MJS]

THAT soon eh? :D Oh dear oh dear... Me too. We should have a whip round to get more pop corn.

Yes, unfortunately, the attempt, was an honest one, to discuss the importance of both and how easy it is for the 2 arts to mix. However, some apparently don't feel that way, even though there were repeated attempts by some, myself included, to show otherwise.

[MJS]

Just posting and talking about WC groundfighting technique. Giving personal experiences to folks who are interested. Gave examples of what I felt from other BJJ guys, wrestlers (whom I have a harder time with) ;)

But a particular group of folks keep assuming that I've never ever trained or worked with stylists of other arts, especially grapplers and MMA guys, boxers, etc. Or that I've got any knowledge in any other art than WC/WT.
Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 10. I like, know stuff. lol!
But, I've got different views than some if not many. That works out okay for me. This is a great way to learn about the collective opinion and consciousness of martial artists from all over the world. And exposure to them in a way I'd never get. And that's great for when I'm talking to prospective students. I already know more of what they think about fighting, what they think works, why, and what questions they will ask.
For all of these things are repeated in this forum, and I get to learn exactly what folks really think in a way people don't often say in person.
This way I can be a better teacher, and answer student's questions more thouroghly. Usually, before they ask the question. Pre-emptively covering what they would ask before they ask it.
Groovy stuff.

See heres the difference. I could take a 3 day seminar with Royce Gracie or any other BJJ black belt, and walk away with a number of things to work on. However, I would not assume that I knew everything there was to know about BJJ. I would not say that A, B, C didn't work, just from that 3 day event. My point is this....the longer you work with someone, the better understanding you will have. How long, honestly, have you really studied the art of BJJ? Working with someone once a week, for an hour vs. someone who attends BJJ class 2-3 or more times a week...well, there will be obvious differences in knowledge and understanding as well as application.

[MJS]

Sifu showed me how to get out of a standing clinch with your back up against a wall using Chun Kiu technique. A little pivot and keeping your arms on top (no underhooking) and palm striking the opponent's sid eof the head. Worked beautifully.
It does seem that alot of anit-grappling technique does focus on "preventative" measures focusing on keeping the opponent away from afar.
But, we train doing chi sau on our backs while the opponent is in a mount position or between the legs too. This helps you stay out of armbars and to get out of them too.
Any ju-jitsu stylist if allowed to "lock out" on you your in big trouble and your chances of getting out at that point are slim. But even when I trained JJJ our counters for getting out of holds were largely "preventative" too. Not hardly did they ever teach you how to escape from a fully braced and locked out joint lock.
But, what Sifu's been showing me uses tan sau to get out of joint locks that art "locked out" that have you in a "submissive" position already. This has blown my mind. Years of training to "submit" when the joint is compromised rather than be broken has been and still is hard to fight against. But the more I train it the more natural it is to get out of those positions. You just have to re-train your thinking, the body will follow the mind every time.
I can't explain it in text. It's too weird. But the fact that I can now escape a full on koto gashie from a standing position without jumping over my whole arm is just amazing to me!
The fact that I can escape the all-time BJJ favorite armbar on the ground is even more awesome! Even after they have you totally flexed. Tan Sau, foreward force and corkscrew the body and your out.
Others like the butterfly guard and the other BJJ grappling guard, I love the WC "guard" (as I call it) for it's simply WC basic stance with abduction. You do this while on your back with an opponent between your legs and their not getting into strike, grapple, choke, or armbar you. Simple as that, I've done it on purple belts. They just can't "pass the guard". Unless they try to go to the side then you "leg chi sau" comes into play.
So, instead of locking my ankles around the guys waiste, I dig my knees into their torso and put my feet shoulder width apart, not touching them, just like when your standing only your feet are in the air. From here you roll them, kick, and are "in guard".
If they try to pry the knees apart (which they always do when they find they can't use their body weight to break through) then their clearly not able to attack you. you hit them, their hands are busy. If not, so what? You flow with your legs, torso, and arms. your arms are free to defend, attack, or whatever you need just like when standing. You roll them over with your legs.
If their too heavy, (or a good wrestler and root under you) you plant those feet at their hips and kick back, or put one foot on their knee (that's on the floor) and the other on the hip. Kick and twist towards the knee side and voila! they roll just great, and your able to get do that WC situp while chainpunching (the ladies in my WC cardio class loved that move! Really gives you a workout).

Ummm.....I'm really speechless. :rolleyes:

[Hagakure]

Yes, unfortunately, the attempt, was an honest one, to discuss the importance of both and how easy it is for the 2 arts to mix. However, some apparently don't feel that way, even though there were repeated attempts by some, myself included, to show otherwise.

I expect these same posters will tell me I'm crazy when I return to Wing Chun tomorow, and cross train with Ju Jutsu on a Thursday evening? The class I'm doing contains a good variety of knife defences, grappling etc. I personally think to study that in conjunction with a striking art, learning something along those lines is a great compliment. As for the whole getting confused between styles, it's my body, I'll bloody well tell it to do what I want it to. No confusion needed, unless you want to be.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I expect these same posters will tell me I'm crazy when I return to Wing Chun tomorow, and cross train with Ju Jutsu on a Thursday evening? The class I'm doing contains a good variety of knife defences, grappling etc. I personally think to study that in conjunction with a striking art, learning something along those lines is a great compliment. As for the whole getting confused between styles, it's my body, I'll bloody well tell it to do what I want it to. No confusion needed, unless you want to be.

You're not crazy. And I agree. People acctualy told me that I'll have a horrible time adjusting when I swithed from WT to WC(they are suprisingly quite diffrent) and that it will be even harder for me than for a total beginer. But honestly I think I was in advantage in comparison to people who haven't trained anything before. I think if you look at it the right way, training in any martial art can only help you. By right way I mean, look at what each martial art has to offer you and how it would better you as a martial artis. You don't need to be that style. I think thats the main problem; that people want to embody a certein style and they don't look at it as something that it realy is-a tool. In the end you'll be the one fighting-with the tool and not as the tool. No matter how good one style is, we as human beings are uncapable of creating perfection or ideals so it would be unwise to confine youself to a style no matter how good you feel it is. I'm sure if people would be openminded they would find that most styles have something very useful to offer. People here who say that the only relevant thing when deciding to train other styles is the individuals will and free time to spare are absolutely right. But I feel that limiting youself to a style becouse you feel it's the ultimate and that nothing else has anything to offer is unwise in my opinion.

[Hagakure]

You're not crazy. And I agree. People acctualy told me that I'll have a horrible time adjusting when I swithed from WT to WC(they are suprisingly quite diffrent) and that it will be even harder for me than for a total beginer. But honestly I think I was in advantage in comparison to people who haven't trained anything before. I think if you look at it the right way, training in any martial art can only help you. By right way I mean, look at what each martial art has to offer you and how it would better you as a martial artis. You don't need to be that style. I think thats the main problem; that people want to embody a certein style and they don't look at it as something that it realy is-a tool. In the end you'll be the one fighting-with the tool and not as the tool. No matter how good one style is, we as human beings are uncapable of creating perfection or ideals so it would be unwise to confine youself to a style no matter how good you feel it is. I'm sure if people would be openminded they would find that most styles have something very useful to offer. People here who say that the only relevant thing when deciding to train other styles is the individuals will and free time to spare are absolutely right. But I feel that limiting youself to a style becouse you feel it's the ultimate and that nothing else has anything to offer is unwise in my opinion.

Totally agree mate. I think in some small way, it boils down to people wanting their art to be the one ultimate. The prospect that it may contain a weakness that is overcome by other arts is anaethama to them. My belief is that it's better to learn from a variety of sources and to limit ones weaknesses. Having spoken to my old sifu, with him having studied Wing Chun and BJJ conbined for a total of 30 odd years of training, I listen to his suggestions/opinions, if in his view there is nothing wrong, it doesn't seem to bother him.

[elder999]

I've followed this thread with some interest.....I'm a very longtime karate student: kyokushin, tae kwon do, American kenpo, a very longtime jujutsu and judo student. A relatively short time kali student, an intermediate aikido student, and a longtime though sporadic wing chun student-these days, most of my training concentrates on the last three, though. I've pretty much kept my mouth shut because this was such an interesting train wreck to observe, and I chimed in on one of the other "wing-chun/grappling" threads elsewhere once. The argument is mostly meaningless......


Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 10. I like, know stuff. lol!.

Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 8, formally since I was 11, which means two years short of twice as long as you.Most of the time ,I feel like I like, don't know ****. :lol:

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Ha!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZYQwNLAnAI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FefVTpqVVI4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-30uo3vQUM&feature=rec-HM-r2

[jarrod]

I've followed this thread with some interest.....I'm a very longtime karate student: kyokushin, tae kwon do, American kenpo, a very longtime jujutsu and judo student. A relatively short time kali student, an intermediate aikido student, and a longtime though sporadic wing chun student-these days, most of my training concentrates on the last three, though. I've pretty much kept my mouth shut because this was such an interesting train wreck to observe, and I chimed in on one of the other "wing-chun/grappling" threads elsewhere once. The argument is mostly meaningless......



Sigh. Whatever. I've trained MA since I was 8, formally since I was 11, which means two years short of twice as long as you.Most of the time ,I feel like I like, don't know ****. :lol:

rather than address your point, she's going to come here & critique your math :lol:

jf

[elder999]

rather than address your point, she's going to come here & critique your math :lol:

jf

Oh, somehow I wound up thinking she'd said since she was 11(maybe because I've formally trained since I was 11)?? :lol:

Whatever.....:lfao: At least I know I don't know ****...:lfao:

[MJS]

I expect these same posters will tell me I'm crazy when I return to Wing Chun tomorow, and cross train with Ju Jutsu on a Thursday evening? The class I'm doing contains a good variety of knife defences, grappling etc. I personally think to study that in conjunction with a striking art, learning something along those lines is a great compliment. As for the whole getting confused between styles, it's my body, I'll bloody well tell it to do what I want it to. No confusion needed, unless you want to be.

Yes, you probably will get flamed by some on here, due to the fact, that supposedly, you don't need anything, except the WC anti grappling.

No worries though, as you won't get flamed by me. Keep on doing what you're doing. IMHO, you're bettering yourself and making yourself a more well rounded fighter. :)

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfLq__054Qk


I enjoyed this video...check out...do you guys have any ground fighting wc videos like this. Where sometimes the fight goes to the ground. maybe if your fighting against the guy in all black your JJJ or BJJ can help the guy on bottom get off the ground?

[dungeonworks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfLq__054Qk


I enjoyed this video...check out...do you guys have any ground fighting wc videos like this. Where sometimes the fight goes to the ground. maybe if your fighting against the guy in all black your JJJ or BJJ can help the guy on bottom get off the ground?

It definitely would, even though he is stuck in one of the most (if not the most) dominant position. There are sweeps he could try by sensing the weight disbursement, toss him to the heavy side. He could also get an arm under his groin and try to shoot out the backside and take his back. It's not impossible, but can be difficult. Guys escape from the same position all the time in MMA bouts, which look more organized than the mess in that video. Heck, they were chain punches started at the opposite side of the ring! Could have FedEx'ed a letter telling him what he was doing and when he would be there! LOL

[mook jong man]

One things for sure man , if that bloke on the bottom knew how to bridge , he wouldn't of wore most of them punches . Because the guy on top would have been too busy trying to keep his balance and would of had to post instead of being able to rain punches down at will .

[jarrod]

One things for sure man , if that bloke on the bottom knew how to bridge , he wouldn't of wore most of them punches . Because the guy on top would have been too busy trying to keep his balance and would of had to post instead of being able to rain punches down at will .

some guys have learned to ride out a bridge & keep throwing punches. i've started placing my knee in the small of their back before i bridge to give them an extra push & make sure their hands are on the mat & not my beautiful face! :lol:

jf

[mook jong man]

some guys have learned to ride out a bridge & keep throwing punches. i've started placing my knee in the small of their back before i bridge to give them an extra push & make sure their hands are on the mat & not my beautiful face! :lol:

jf

Do you mean if they have the hooks in or just riding it out keeping good balance ? If I can't bridge them off I tend to shield with my elbows as I come up and bury my face in their stomach and then grab them in a bear hug and pull them down hard and force them to post .

Could you explain your technique a little more please , as I understand it just before you bridge you give them a little nudge in the back to get their momentum going forward to increase the effect of your bridge is that correct ?

[Hagakure]

Yes, you probably will get flamed by some on here, due to the fact, that supposedly, you don't need anything, except the WC anti grappling.

No worries though, as you won't get flamed by me. Keep on doing what you're doing. IMHO, you're bettering yourself and making yourself a more well rounded fighter. :)

That's the plan mate, just have to work off my Xmas-belly first. ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

Mook Jong when you speak of bridge are you speaking of from a standing posistion when the guy was on his feet chainpunching like crazy...I think jarrod is speaking from the ground perspective on how to get out submissive posistion when the bloke was getting his face pounded to mat!




Do you mean if they have the hooks in or just riding it out keeping good balance ? If I can't bridge them off I tend to shield with my elbows as I come up and bury my face in their stomach and then grab them in a bear hug and pull them down hard and force them to post .

Could you explain your technique a little more please , as I understand it just before you bridge you give them a little nudge in the back to get their momentum going forward to increase the effect of your bridge is that correct ?

[Si-Je]

Yes, unfortunately, the attempt, was an honest one, to discuss the importance of both and how easy it is for the 2 arts to mix. However, some apparently don't feel that way, even though there were repeated attempts by some, myself included, to show otherwise.

No, some don’t feel that way.


See heres the difference. I could take a 3 day seminar with Royce Gracie or any other BJJ black belt, and walk away with a number of things to work on. However, I would not assume that I knew everything there was to know about BJJ. I would not say that A, B, C didn't work, just from that 3 day event. My point is this....the longer you work with someone, the better understanding you will have. How long, honestly, have you really studied the art of BJJ? Working with someone once a week, for an hour vs. someone who attends BJJ class 2-3 or more times a week...well, there will be obvious differences in knowledge and understanding as well as application.

No, I haven’t studied the art of BJJ, and I don’t want to. That’s the point. I feel that I’ve got good training and technique in ground fighting. That it’s not needed for me to take other arts. Apparently, you and many others wish to do that, so go ahead. You don’t need to convince me that it’s the right thing to do. I don’t agree that the two arts mix well. That’s just my opinion.
I agree that the longer you work with someone the more you understand about their style, whatever style they study and that’s all grand. But, I’m not signing up to learn another art right now, possibly ever. And defiantly not a grappling art. Just not my cup of tea. J

Ummm.....I'm really speechless.

I really don’t know what your meaning by this statement. But, I’ll just take it for what it’s worth, and assume you mean to be sarcastic and condescending. If you don’t like the technique or don’t understand it, ask. If you don’t like it fine. That description of technique was for the Wing Chun people not the grapplers. Not for folks that just aren’t interested, or that don’t train WC/WT.

is approaching meltdown!

Again, same response to you as I stated to MJS. You don’t like it, that’s your thing. You don’t understand it, ask. You don’t care, I won’t post anymore WC technique on the board for escaping these powerful and all mighty BJJ moves! Lol! There not that hard to get out of using WT/WC technique and principles. Very basic stuff. You want to train WC and then laugh at it when it suits you that’s something I just don’t understand. You want to train WC and then believe it doesn’t work when you need it or when against a grappler, then that’s your choice, not mine.

Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.

[elder999]

Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.
:rolleyes:

Oh, the irony.:lfao:

[Steve]

Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts. If my kids ever ask me to define 'irony' I'll show them this thread, culminating in this statement.

[Si-Je]

May every fighter train and depend on BJJ! lol!

:cheers:

[Steve]

:rolleyes:

Oh, the irony.:lfao:Wow... I just noticed that you and I had virtually the same reaction. :)


May every fighter train and depend on BJJ! lol! Once again, no one's saying that you or anyone should crosstrain. Only that crosstraining is undeniably beneficial. Bruce Lee benefited from it. Sifu Emin Boztep did it and benefited. The guys in the very videos you posted have benefited from it. Your husband by your account, has benefited from it. And by your own words, whether you admit it or not, you have benefited from it.

I just watched Meet the Robinsons with my kids. Great movie, if you haven't seen it. There's this one scene that reminded me of this thread. In it, the villain (who is eventually redeemed) is flashing back to his childhood. He's walking through the halls of his school and the kids are all saying hi. One kid says, "Hey scooter (or whatever his name was). You wanna come by after school and play?" His response in voice over, "They all hated me."

This thread is kind of like that. It's become unecessarily adverserial, where you have set yourself up against everyone else and even when it's clear to everyone that the difference between your position and mine (or MJS's or whomever's) is insignificant, you refuse to see it. MJS virtually parroted your position back to you and you still argued with him and told him he was wrong.

For me, if I had the time and money, I'd study as many diverse styles of MA as I can, if for no other reason that personal edification. I train in BJJ only because, like you, I have limited time and picked the one I like the best. Unlike you, I'm not so insecure that I must continually assert that the style in which I train is the best. I'll be the first to say that BJJ by itself has gaps that, were I interested in self defense training, I'd definitely work to supplement.

[Yoshiyahu]

i think they hate your post...lol...




No, some don’t feel that way.



No, I haven’t studied the art of BJJ, and I don’t want to. That’s the point. I feel that I’ve got good training and technique in ground fighting. That it’s not needed for me to take other arts. Apparently, you and many others wish to do that, so go ahead. You don’t need to convince me that it’s the right thing to do. I don’t agree that the two arts mix well. That’s just my opinion.
I agree that the longer you work with someone the more you understand about their style, whatever style they study and that’s all grand. But, I’m not signing up to learn another art right now, possibly ever. And defiantly not a grappling art. Just not my cup of tea. J


I really don’t know what your meaning by this statement. But, I’ll just take it for what it’s worth, and assume you mean to be sarcastic and condescending. If you don’t like the technique or don’t understand it, ask. If you don’t like it fine. That description of technique was for the Wing Chun people not the grapplers. Not for folks that just aren’t interested, or that don’t train WC/WT.


Again, same response to you as I stated to MJS. You don’t like it, that’s your thing. You don’t understand it, ask. You don’t care, I won’t post anymore WC technique on the board for escaping these powerful and all mighty BJJ moves! Lol! There not that hard to get out of using WT/WC technique and principles. Very basic stuff. You want to train WC and then laugh at it when it suits you that’s something I just don’t understand. You want to train WC and then believe it doesn’t work when you need it or when against a grappler, then that’s your choice, not mine.

Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.

[Steve]

Oh, Yoshi. It's not about hate or like. Maybe that's the crux of the misunderstanding. Where you and si-je look at this thread focusing on only what is different, the entire spirit of this thread is to look for what is common and can be universally helpful. Speaking only for myself, it just makes me sad and tired to see you two congratulating yourselves for being so resolute in your knowledge that the Earth is flat. At least you have each other.

[mook jong man]

Mook Jong when you speak of bridge are you speaking of from a standing posistion when the guy was on his feet chainpunching like crazy...I think jarrod is speaking from the ground perspective on how to get out submissive posistion when the bloke was getting his face pounded to mat!

No mate , I am specifically talking about the wrestlers bridge , not the bridge you are thinking of in Wing Chun where you are trying to gain contact with the opponents forearms .

[Si-Je]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfLq__054Qk


I enjoyed this video...check out...do you guys have any ground fighting wc videos like this. Where sometimes the fight goes to the ground. maybe if your fighting against the guy in all black your JJJ or BJJ can help the guy on bottom get off the ground?

ROFL! I just noticed that video Yoshi! I can't stop laughing! hahahhaha! BJJ will help you get off the ground here?! Ouch, being punched in face too many times in a short period.... I must get him in my butterfly guard quick, ooops, I'm unconscious! lol!
Your naughty, and no one noticed. :)
Comparing MMA fighters getting out of that position in MMA matches against MMA strikers does not compute. They just don't punch that many times continously in the ring or in many other striking styles at all. And the power is different, they don't train to punch with power in short distances, and small spaces.

[Si-Je]

:rolleyes:

Oh, the irony.:lfao:

The irony is that people who train an art don't bother to look to their art to discover what can be used against another arts technique that may have defeated them. They just run like sheep to the other art.
If your art has a weakness (or just your application of that art) you learn how to overcome that weakness.

The irony is that most of WT/WC technique that is taught is being watered down for this very reason. That people don't have the patience or vision to finish their training before they seek answers from another art. And that Sifu's are mixing their WC/WT with these other popular and inefficient arts to keep student's happy.
(and yes, it is INEFFICIENT to use your entire body on a joint lock that only requires 5-8 lbs of pressure to aquire a break)
You say BJJ uses sensitivity and fluidity, I haven't felt that yet from such a practitioner, and yes, they were people that trained 3-5 days a week and had reached high rank in the art. And the use of Brute Strength is rampant in BJJ, for everytime I use WC guard on the ground they always try to jump in on my knees and break through my "guard", when that doesn't work they try to pry the knees apart, using, guess what? Brute strength. When that doesn't work, they try to pick me up (because I'm small I guess) for a body slam, again, brute strength (I couldn't pick up my Sifu in that fashion!)
The two styles conflict drastically in concepts and fighting/defense approaches. Why not take another art that complements your own more? That would flow o and from WT/WC concepts more effeciently.

Mook Jong Man, I was wondering about that defense to a mounted attacker with the clinch you described.
Have you ever tried to latch the opponent as they punch down on you while bucking your hip up under him?

like say: they throw a hook punch and you dai sau with the left hand, then latch the punching arm as you buck up from under them with your right hip to roll them over. You can follow through with punching on the free hand. Just something to play with when you get a chance. You can do this off a straight punch too, using Tan sau, or pak sau. Buck with the side hip opposite from the arm your latching. (latching usually ends up at the elbow or bicep when in this close, and that's all good.)

Sifu says: for the chunners, "you use Chi Sau principles for your entire body such as a when your bucking, have the hips bucking upwards in a circular motion while your re-directing the punches with your arms. Play with chi sau using your whole body to counter BJJ. BJJ people I don't expect you to understand this because you don't understand chi sau principles. You learn to do chi sau with your whole body on the ground. Arms, legs, hips, shoulders, head, everything in unison depending on the mount and the positioning of the opponent. Where their body weight is centralized, and where it's going."

[Hand Sword]

:sadsong:

I can't believe the thread is still going on. I'm going to call the animal cops. This horse is not only dead but continues to be tortured!

[jarrod]

Do you mean if they have the hooks in or just riding it out keeping good balance ? If I can't bridge them off I tend to shield with my elbows as I come up and bury my face in their stomach and then grab them in a bear hug and pull them down hard and force them to post .

Could you explain your technique a little more please , as I understand it just before you bridge you give them a little nudge in the back to get their momentum going forward to increase the effect of your bridge is that correct ?

i mean if the guy has a high mount & is just leaning back a bit like a cowboy on a bull. if he has his hooks in he can't really sit up to punch (though he can chop away with a much slower but more powerful strikes).

the knee isn't quite a nudge, it's more of a brace. if you push with your knee, your leg alone won't be strong enough to move his back muscles. so instead you want to place your knee in their back, so that when you bridge you are using the strength in both legs as well as your hips. that should be strong enough to drive them forward.

a good approach to jujitsu for me has been to analyze which muscles are used in my body vs. what my opponent is using. then i want to make sure i'm using each muscle group that can possibly help me, while not needlessly tensing other muscles. jujitsu can work against a stronger person because it isolates the opponent's limbs while maximizing the jujitsuka's placement of weight, use of leverage, & use of strength. figuring out the most efficient way to use your strength is vastly different from relying on brute strength, which is my main contention with this thread.

jf

[mook jong man]

i mean if the guy has a high mount & is just leaning back a bit like a cowboy on a bull. if he has his hooks in he can't really sit up to punch (though he can chop away with a much slower but more powerful strikes).

the knee isn't quite a nudge, it's more of a brace. if you push with your knee, your leg alone won't be strong enough to move his back muscles. so instead you want to place your knee in their back, so that when you bridge you are using the strength in both legs as well as your hips. that should be strong enough to drive them forward.

a good approach to jujitsu for me has been to analyze which muscles are used in my body vs. what my opponent is using. then i want to make sure i'm using each muscle group that can possibly help me, while not needlessly tensing other muscles. jujitsu can work against a stronger person because it isolates the opponent's limbs while maximizing the jujitsuka's placement of weight, use of leverage, & use of strength. figuring out the most efficient way to use your strength is vastly different from relying on brute strength, which is my main contention with this thread.

jf

Ah , now I understand , thank you sir , sounds great I will try that out next time I grapple .

Yes Si-Je I have done the technique you describe , which does work well if the attacker is throwing circular strikes at your head , you can just latch that arm down as you bridge and roll .

But if your attacker is another Wing Chun guy , then you are going to be under a barrage of centreline punches , in which case you might be able to do Tan / Bong from the bottom , whilst bridging your hips up like a man possesed or shielding and clinching so that you can pull him down close so that you can roll him .

[elder999]

To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure. (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".
So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.





And that Sifu's are mixing their WC/WT with these other popular and inefficient arts to keep student's happy.
(and yes, it is INEFFICIENT to use your entire body on a joint lock that only requires 5-8 lbs of pressure to aquire a break


Soooo......I've got questions.

Like, which is it, 2-6 or 5-8 "pounds of pressure?"

Like, which is it "pounds of pressure," or "pounds of force?"


Which joint are you referring to? Does it take the same amount (of force, pressure or whatever) to break a finger as it does an elbow? What about a shoulder?
What about a knee?

Which anatomy text did you derive that little factoid from?

Do you mean "break the joint," or "rupture the articular cartilage capsule?"

Perhaps you mean rupture the medial ligament and collateral ligaments, also called the "joint capsule", releasing synovial fluid though I doubt it-maybe "rupture the annular ligament?" Maybe just "rupture the lateral epicondyle," though, again, I doubt it.

Have you ever actually "broken a joint," or had one broken?

Do you mean "use the whole body" for the movement devoted to the kansetsu waza, or use the whole body to control the other person's body?

Or neither, perhaps?


The irony is that people who train an art don't bother to look to their art to discover what can be used against another arts technique that may have defeated them. They just run like sheep to the other art.

But, if I understand you correctly, you have no problem with a "chunner" cross training in, say, Japanese jujutsu, or judo-it's just BJJ you have a beef with, right?

[MJS]

No, some don’t feel that way.

Yup, its been very obvious.




No, I haven’t studied the art of BJJ, and I don’t want to. That’s the point. I feel that I’ve got good training and technique in ground fighting. That it’s not needed for me to take other arts. Apparently, you and many others wish to do that, so go ahead. You don’t need to convince me that it’s the right thing to do. I don’t agree that the two arts mix well. That’s just my opinion.
I agree that the longer you work with someone the more you understand about their style, whatever style they study and that’s all grand. But, I’m not signing up to learn another art right now, possibly ever. And defiantly not a grappling art. Just not my cup of tea.

Yet you still make assumptions about an art you've never trained in. Hmm...go figure. And why do you keep making a reference to 'signing up' somewhere? Who the hell said anything about that? I don't have to 'sign up' somewhere to learn the art. For the first few years of my BJJ training, it was a 1 on 1 private session in the backyard, garage or the school when it was closed. No money exchanged, it was simply a hardcore workout. I still grapple with people. Interestingly enough, I ran into one of my old BJJ teachers this weekend at an Arnis Black Belt workout. Gee imagine that...a BJJ Purple Belt who trains in Kenpo and Arnis. He told me anytime I wanted to come and train, the doors to his school would be open.



I really don’t know what your meaning by this statement. But, I’ll just take it for what it’s worth, and assume you mean to be sarcastic and condescending. If you don’t like the technique or don’t understand it, ask. If you don’t like it fine. That description of technique was for the Wing Chun people not the grapplers. Not for folks that just aren’t interested, or that don’t train WC/WT.

I, as well as a few others seem to have read that and found it a bit hard to believe. Sorry, but a BJJ Purple belt should be able to school pretty much everyone they roll with. Someone who cant...well, IMHO, should not be wearing a purple.



Again, same response to you as I stated to MJS. You don’t like it, that’s your thing. You don’t understand it, ask. You don’t care, I won’t post anymore WC technique on the board for escaping these powerful and all mighty BJJ moves! Lol! There not that hard to get out of using WT/WC technique and principles. Very basic stuff. You want to train WC and then laugh at it when it suits you that’s something I just don’t understand. You want to train WC and then believe it doesn’t work when you need it or when against a grappler, then that’s your choice, not mine.

I'm sorry, but this thread has gone on for 20+ pages, but have I said that I wanted to train WC? I honestly don't recall saying that, but if I did, then so be it. And I would think that if WC, which judging by your posts, you're still considering the almighty art, had such superior ground skills, that anyone and everyone who wanted to be great on the ground would be banging the doors down of every WC school around. Doesn't seem like thats the case though does it?

And speaking of the principles...you seem to educate everyone on WC, yet turn a deaf ear when someone tries to educate you on BJJ. But wait, you dont want to hear it do you? But you expect people to listen to you when you talk about WC?


Overall, this has been a good thread and good discussion on WC and BJJ, it has really illuminated for me the limitations people set upon themselves and their arts.

LOL, limitations? Please, I've been training now for 24yrs. I'm quite capable of making what I train in work. :) And speaking of limitations, you seems to have a very distorted view on things, only having the mindset of what hubby teaches and nothing else. Well if hubby said it'll work it must work. If hubby says this, if hubby says that, if Emin said this or that. There people on here who train BJJ and are trying to show you the differences and how effective it is, but because hubby said otherwise or this person said otherwise, instead of thinking for yourself, you follow like a sheep.

And thats fine. I wish you well in your martial arts journey.

[MJS]

ROFL! I just noticed that video Yoshi! I can't stop laughing! hahahhaha! BJJ will help you get off the ground here?! Ouch, being punched in face too many times in a short period.... I must get him in my butterfly guard quick, ooops, I'm unconscious! lol!
Your naughty, and no one noticed. :)
Comparing MMA fighters getting out of that position in MMA matches against MMA strikers does not compute. They just don't punch that many times continously in the ring or in many other striking styles at all. And the power is different, they don't train to punch with power in short distances, and small spaces.

Hmm...another shameless plug for the ultimate art of WC eh? Guess it goes to show that if you don't know the groundgame, you get screwed like that guy. No sije, WC isn't the ultimate and had someone known what to do on the ground, those punches would not have been as effective.

[dungeonworks]

ROFL! I just noticed that video Yoshi! I can't stop laughing! hahahhaha! BJJ will help you get off the ground here?! Ouch, being punched in face too many times in a short period.... I must get him in my butterfly guard quick, ooops, I'm unconscious! lol!
Your naughty, and no one noticed. :)
Comparing MMA fighters getting out of that position in MMA matches against MMA strikers does not compute. They just don't punch that many times continously in the ring or in many other striking styles at all. And the power is different, they don't train to punch with power in short distances, and small spaces.

Here again the :BSmeter: approaches dangerous levels. Have you ever watched the UFC or other MMA competition? How about a real fight at the bar or wherever? Ever notice that MMA is the closest thing out there to a real fight aside a few rules? The results you believe from these punches and kicks less often as dramatic as you seem to believe....but the funniest part was the suggestion of Tan-ing out of an armbar in that earlier post! That one was priceless! So far, that is the only move you have picked apart from BJJ and now because Yoshi puts up a 30 second video of a guy in the mount, you think BJJ doesn't have an answer for it. That shows ignorance of BJJ....LOT's of it....To borrow from MJS, I am speechless...

[jarrod]

Ah , now I understand , thank you sir , sounds great I will try that out next time I grapple .



you're welcome, please let me know how it works for you :asian:

jf

[dungeonworks]

The irony is that people who train an art don't bother to look to their art to discover what can be used against another arts technique that may have defeated them. They just run like sheep to the other art.
If your art has a weakness (or just your application of that art) you learn how to overcome that weakness.

The irony is that most of WT/WC technique that is taught is being watered down for this very reason. That people don't have the patience or vision to finish their training before they seek answers from another art. And that Sifu's are mixing their WC/WT with these other popular and inefficient arts to keep student's happy.
(and yes, it is INEFFICIENT to use your entire body on a joint lock that only requires 5-8 lbs of pressure to aquire a break)
You say BJJ uses sensitivity and fluidity, I haven't felt that yet from such a practitioner, and yes, they were people that trained 3-5 days a week and had reached high rank in the art. And the use of Brute Strength is rampant in BJJ, for everytime I use WC guard on the ground they always try to jump in on my knees and break through my "guard", when that doesn't work they try to pry the knees apart, using, guess what? Brute strength. When that doesn't work, they try to pick me up (because I'm small I guess) for a body slam, again, brute strength (I couldn't pick up my Sifu in that fashion!)
The two styles conflict drastically in concepts and fighting/defense approaches. Why not take another art that complements your own more? That would flow o and from WT/WC concepts more effeciently.

Mook Jong Man, I was wondering about that defense to a mounted attacker with the clinch you described.
Have you ever tried to latch the opponent as they punch down on you while bucking your hip up under him?

like say: they throw a hook punch and you dai sau with the left hand, then latch the punching arm as you buck up from under them with your right hip to roll them over. You can follow through with punching on the free hand. Just something to play with when you get a chance. You can do this off a straight punch too, using Tan sau, or pak sau. Buck with the side hip opposite from the arm your latching. (latching usually ends up at the elbow or bicep when in this close, and that's all good.)

Sifu says: for the chunners, "you use Chi Sau principles for your entire body such as a when your bucking, have the hips bucking upwards in a circular motion while your re-directing the punches with your arms. Play with chi sau using your whole body to counter BJJ. BJJ people I don't expect you to understand this because you don't understand chi sau principles. You learn to do chi sau with your whole body on the ground. Arms, legs, hips, shoulders, head, everything in unison depending on the mount and the positioning of the opponent. Where their body weight is centralized, and where it's going."

Proof again you have no clue about BJJ. A BJJ stylist would pass over your legs to side control then/or mount.

Jeesh

[elder999]

My SIFU is a 4th degree MCMAP instructor for the USMC

So, I have more questions-I'll spare you the overly personal, intrusive and downright disrespectful ones like "where is your hu-er-SIFU stationed, and what rank is he?"

I am....confused, though. I've seen the MCMAP material, both throught MCMAP trained people and the manual(s). Isn't a large component of it Brazilian jujitsu derived ground-fighting? Being a "4th degree MCMAP instructor" would mean that he has BJJ as a component in his skill-set. I won't say that he's diluted or polluted his "pure wing chun," but I have to wonder just how it is he manages to keep his peanut butter off his chocolate, so to speak.....:lol:

[MJS]

While we're throwing around video clips, I thought I'd post this one. This is from the now defunct Extreme Fighting show. Here we see a grappler and a WC guy. This (http://www.duncanleung.de/) is who the WC guy has trained under. A bit about Mr. Falkner. (http://falknerwingchun.com/index.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrCmddfix0&feature=related


Hmm...win by RNC.

[elder999]

My SIFU has trained under two masters reaching Level 5 technician under BOTH in Wing Chun and Wing Tsun.
My SIFU knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT. My SIFU knows butterfly swords, dragon pole, mook jong, escrima, anti-grappling, knife fighting and defense (from USMC) whereas some SIFU's and stylists do not know the entire system of WC/WT.I am pround of my SIFU, that is why I am his student in the first place, reguardless of the fact that he's my husband as well. If his art was worthless, I'd train elsewhere.
I came on here oringionally and didn't name him as my SIFU only to keep from being presumptous in reguards to his official ranking. He is unaffiliated with any master and has not been "awarded" the title of Sifu, so I did not want to refer to him as a Sifu until we could establish the officiality of that title. But, as it seems, me referring to him as "hubbie" has diminished and disrespected his skill, knowledge, and qualifications as a teacher I will then promote him to status of "Sifu" as a student who seeks his knowledge.

So, which is it-"unaffiliated with any master," or "knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT?"

Which two masters did he train under?



My SIFU was one of the major instructors that helped to design MCMAP into the art it is today

Again, I’m confused. I was told that Lieutenant Colonel George Bristol and Master Gunnery Sergeant Cardo Urso developed the MCMAP curriculum?

[Steve]

My SIFU is a 4th degree MCMAP instructor for the USMCIf this is true, then I can guarantee you that he knows how to pass your open guard... err... WC guard, and it's not by using magic. I wonder why he hasn't shared any of them with you.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

While we're throwing around video clips, I thought I'd post this one. This is from the now defunct Extreme Fighting show. Here we see a grappler and a WC guy. This (http://www.duncanleung.de/) is who the WC guy has trained under. A bit about Mr. Falkner. (http://falknerwingchun.com/index.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrCm...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrCmddfix0&feature=related)


Hmm...win by RNC.

Interesting video... It turns out this Falkner guy has been training WC since 83 and has also studied with Lo Man Kam. He has also thought the military-Navy Seals teams 2 and 4.

[Steve]

So, which is it-"unaffiliated with any master," or "knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT?"

Which two masters did he train under?



Again, I’m confused. I was told that Lieutenant Colonel George Bristol and Master Gunnery Sergeant Cardo Urso developed the MCMAP curriculum?
And it was my understanding that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was specifically chosen as a base art in both Army Combatives and MCMAP. Why would your husband be a part of promoting a style for which you both seem to have such a disdain? I am genuinely confused.

[mook jong man]

While we're throwing around video clips, I thought I'd post this one. This is from the now defunct Extreme Fighting show. Here we see a grappler and a WC guy. This (http://www.duncanleung.de/) is who the WC guy has trained under. A bit about Mr. Falkner. (http://falknerwingchun.com/index.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrCmddfix0&feature=related


Hmm...win by RNC.

I can see the point you are trying to make , but seriously that Wing Chun guy was crap . That guy is a Sifu that is friggin unbelievable , he must of got his Sifu rank out of the bottom of a box of corn flakes .

I'm just talking about the W.C he was performing in the clip , he had his guard down around waist height , in our school he would of got his face ripped off .

He was pretty slow as well , I've taught grade three's with two years training that were faster than this so called Sifu .

But yet again another retard stepping into the cage with out a clue what to do on the ground , point well taken .

[MJS]

I can see the point you are trying to make , but seriously that Wing Chun guy was crap . That guy is a Sifu that is friggin unbelievable , he must of got his Sifu rank out of the bottom of a box of corn flakes .

I'm just talking about the W.C he was performing in the clip , he had his guard down around waist height , in our school he would of got his face ripped off .

He was pretty slow as well , I've taught grade three's with two years training that were faster than this so called Sifu .

But yet again another retard stepping into the cage with out a clue what to do on the ground , point well taken .

Well, my point was 2 fold. One: We see an awful lot of claims, that WC is an unbeatable art. IMO, there is no ultimate art. Proof further shows the worship that Royce received, yet he lost to Matt Hughes. Now, I'm not taking anything away from Royce, but I'm simply pointing that no art is unbeatable.

My second point was while this may not be the best display of WC in the cage, neither was that cheap attempt from that video clip that was posted, with the WC guy chain punching the other guy while in the mount. Basically it was an attempt to discredit BJJ/MMA.

IMHO, I feel that everyone can benefit from any style. If I didn't think so, then I wouldn't cross train, and I doubt anyone else would either. Whats sad, is that there're so many people wearing rose colored glasses on here, its amazing. And its not limited to WC either. There're just as many wearing them in the Kenpo world as well.

I'll use this as another example. Someone can go to med. school and become a doctor. In Sijes' world, that is all you need. Just a general doctor. Yet some go on to further their studies and become a specialist in a certain area. Goes to show that a regular doc. can't always give the best advise. If he can't, he usually suggests going to a specialist. He recommends someone to go to. No different here. As a Kenpo guy, I have a number of takedown defenses. Yet, if I want to further expand on that, I go to a grappler, the specialist on the ground. Same with a knife. Kenpo has knife in it, yet, I can and do, go to Arnis and a few other FMAs to expand on that.

[Yoshiyahu]

I like your analogy. You have some who are general Martial Artist. They train a little boxing, hung gar and aikido. Then you have some who are specialist they train or specialize only Judo or Only Tai Chi. Its best to learn from a specialist in martial arts then a person who studies a little bit of everything from numerous systems. But any way nothing wrong with learning a little from other arts.

I personally have no problem with BJJ. If you practice BJJ your probably a better wrestler than me. But I am the type who dislikes the whole ground thing. I don't really like ground fighting. I perfer punches and kicks flying and blocks and deflections intercepting. Thats what I like to see. People transition from stance to stance in hand to hand combat. As for BJJ I personally think a Judo or Japanese Jutjitsu or Aikijuijitsu would be a better art than BJJ...thats my opinion i could be wrong. But the art really depends on the person.

But if I wanted to learn how to fight using BJJ i wouldn't learn BJJ i would learn MMA. Because most of the time BJJ guys get the crap beat out of them by your average MMA guys!

Just my opinion. MMA guys seem more condition and better fighters than BJJ guys. But I willing to test your skill sometime. Very interesting. I cant wait to try this one MMA school in my town. It looks interesting from the site. An it seems like its great place to be to have constant sparring partners!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PH1ZZNfglYo


http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mez5Mfg62vc

But ne way. I just don't really like how wrestling looks. To me its okay if I am fighting a smaller opponent I would want to wrestle but someone alot bigger than me I feel no matter how much I practice BJJ it would be useless against a gigantic sumo wrestler or 6'4" football player!

Just my opinion I could be wrong...

Actually the first video wasn't really a slam against BJJ. Actually it shows a guy getting taking to the ground and pounded! He wasn't doing Chain punches on the ground though!



Well, my point was 2 fold. One: We see an awful lot of claims, that WC is an unbeatable art. IMO, there is no ultimate art. Proof further shows the worship that Royce received, yet he lost to Matt Hughes. Now, I'm not taking anything away from Royce, but I'm simply pointing that no art is unbeatable.

My second point was while this may not be the best display of WC in the cage, neither was that cheap attempt from that video clip that was posted, with the WC guy chain punching the other guy while in the mount. Basically it was an attempt to discredit BJJ/MMA.

IMHO, I feel that everyone can benefit from any style. If I didn't think so, then I wouldn't cross train, and I doubt anyone else would either. Whats sad, is that there're so many people wearing rose colored glasses on here, its amazing. And its not limited to WC either. There're just as many wearing them in the Kenpo world as well.

I'll use this as another example. Someone can go to med. school and become a doctor. In Sijes' world, that is all you need. Just a general doctor. Yet some go on to further their studies and become a specialist in a certain area. Goes to show that a regular doc. can't always give the best advise. If he can't, he usually suggests going to a specialist. He recommends someone to go to. No different here. As a Kenpo guy, I have a number of takedown defenses. Yet, if I want to further expand on that, I go to a grappler, the specialist on the ground. Same with a knife. Kenpo has knife in it, yet, I can and do, go to Arnis and a few other FMAs to expand on that.

[mook jong man]

Interesting video... It turns out this Falkner guy has been training WC since 83 and has also studied with Lo Man Kam. He has also thought the military-Navy Seals teams 2 and 4.

If he's been training since 1983 that is very bloody sad mate , purely from the vision of him training in his school he hasn't even got basic speed . If I can see every single hand technique like I could with that guy then you are not fast in my opinion .

I'm just comparing to the speed of my own instructors who's movements were pretty much a blur , and they didn't go around calling themselves a Sifu , they were just instructors . As for teaching the Navy Seals he must of pulled a pretty good con job to get that gig .

Its just very dissappointing to see , that some one with a mediocre skill level is handed the rank of Sifu , this sort of thing is an epidemic , not just in Wing Chun , but across the martial arts world .

People in our system after about 20 years are lucky to be called a junior master and that is only if you are up to standard and have been thoroughly tested by both Sifu and Sigung .

The ranks these days are given out far too easily in my opinion and I think it is only going to get worse , because we are ruled by the mighty dollar .

[The Last Legionary]

:dramaqueen::-popcorn::sadsong:

[MJS]

I like your analogy. You have some who are general Martial Artist. They train a little boxing, hung gar and aikido. Then you have some who are specialist they train or specialize only Judo or Only Tai Chi. Its best to learn from a specialist in martial arts then a person who studies a little bit of everything from numerous systems. But any way nothing wrong with learning a little from other arts.

I personally have no problem with BJJ. If you practice BJJ your probably a better wrestler than me. But I am the type who dislikes the whole ground thing. I don't really like ground fighting. I perfer punches and kicks flying and blocks and deflections intercepting. Thats what I like to see. People transition from stance to stance in hand to hand combat. As for BJJ I personally think a Judo or Japanese Jutjitsu or Aikijuijitsu would be a better art than BJJ...thats my opinion i could be wrong. But the art really depends on the person.

But if I wanted to learn how to fight using BJJ i wouldn't learn BJJ i would learn MMA. Because most of the time BJJ guys get the crap beat out of them by your average MMA guys!

Just my opinion. MMA guys seem more condition and better fighters than BJJ guys. But I willing to test your skill sometime. Very interesting. I cant wait to try this one MMA school in my town. It looks interesting from the site. An it seems like its great place to be to have constant sparring partners!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PH1ZZNfglYo


http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mez5Mfg62vc

But ne way. I just don't really like how wrestling looks. To me its okay if I am fighting a smaller opponent I would want to wrestle but someone alot bigger than me I feel no matter how much I practice BJJ it would be useless against a gigantic sumo wrestler or 6'4" football player!

Just my opinion I could be wrong...

Actually the first video wasn't really a slam against BJJ. Actually it shows a guy getting taking to the ground and pounded! He wasn't doing Chain punches on the ground though!

BJJ is only one part of the puzzle for a MMA fighter. Likewise, its the same for me. The thing that seems to be constantly getting missed, either accidentally or on purpose for the sake of arguing, is that nobody said that going to the ground and looking for a submission is the thing to do. I've given examples of what I use it for, so I'm not repeating them again. I, as well as many others, have also said that BJJ is not the only ground art. I guess its been missed that Judo, Sambo and Wrestling have also been suggested. People keep on harping on BJJ.

[mook jong man]

The bottom line is if you don't practice some form of ground fighting of some type with your Wing Chun then you are unprepared for reality , and it means you are sailing a boat down that river in Egypt .

DENIAL

[Yoshiyahu]

I guess this is in response to me. I have also mentioned Judo and other Arts in past. But right now I am harpening on BJJ for those who it concerns. My Qualifying statement is infact this:


But if I wanted to learn how to fight using BJJ i wouldn't learn BJJ i would learn MMA. Because most of the time BJJ guys get the crap beat out of them by your average MMA guys!



BJJ is only one part of the puzzle for a MMA fighter. Likewise, its the same for me. The thing that seems to be constantly getting missed, either accidentally or on purpose for the sake of arguing, is that nobody said that going to the ground and looking for a submission is the thing to do. I've given examples of what I use it for, so I'm not repeating them again. I, as well as many others, have also said that BJJ is not the only ground art. I guess its been missed that Judo, Sambo and Wrestling have also been suggested. People keep on harping on BJJ.

[Seeker]

I think the problem found in a lot of arts is looking for things in the art that aren't there.

I was told that a quan sua can stop a double leg takedown; I was also told in Judo that ippon seoinage can be used against the rightcross, and with TKD kicks no one can get close enough to punch or grab you... etc.

Much of it sounds plausible; some of it can be pulled off in the ideal training environment with a compliant opponent. But in reality, not so much.

[Si-Je]

So, I have more questions-I'll spare you the overly personal, intrusive and downright disrespectful ones like "where is your hu-er-SIFU stationed, and what rank is he?"

I am....confused, though. I've seen the MCMAP material, both throught MCMAP trained people and the manual(s). Isn't a large component of it Brazilian jujitsu derived ground-fighting? Being a "4th degree MCMAP instructor" would mean that he has BJJ as a component in his skill-set. I won't say that he's diluted or polluted his "pure wing chun," but I have to wonder just how it is he manages to keep his peanut butter off his chocolate, so to speak.....:lol:
[/size]

No. BJJ wasn't in the curriculum. It's a drill for fun. They do in the sand. Not apart of the actual combat training. That would not be useful with 100lbs of gear and armor on with a machine gun in you hands.
I'll let him anwser you ignorant questions when he gets home. ;)

[Si-Je]

Here again the :BSmeter: approaches dangerous levels. Have you ever watched the UFC or other MMA competition? How about a real fight at the bar or wherever? Ever notice that MMA is the closest thing out there to a real fight aside a few rules? The results you believe from these punches and kicks less often as dramatic as you seem to believe....but the funniest part was the suggestion of Tan-ing out of an armbar in that earlier post! That one was priceless! So far, that is the only move you have picked apart from BJJ and now because Yoshi puts up a 30 second video of a guy in the mount, you think BJJ doesn't have an answer for it. That shows ignorance of BJJ....LOT's of it....To borrow from MJS, I am speechless...

MMA isn't real fighting.
Pick another BJJ technique, your choice, I'll tell you the counter.
And BJJ doesn't have an "answer" to being pummelled like that.

[Si-Je]

Soooo......I've got questions.

Like, which is it, 2-6 or 5-8 "pounds of pressure?"

Like, which is it "pounds of pressure," or "pounds of force?"


Which joint are you referring to? Does it take the same amount (of force, pressure or whatever) to break a finger as it does an elbow? What about a shoulder?
What about a knee?

Which anatomy text did you derive that little factoid from?

Do you mean "break the joint," or "rupture the articular cartilage capsule?"

Perhaps you mean rupture the medial ligament and collateral ligaments, also called the "joint capsule", releasing synovial fluid though I doubt it-maybe "rupture the annular ligament?" Maybe just "rupture the lateral epicondyle," though, again, I doubt it.

Have you ever actually "broken a joint," or had one broken?

Do you mean "use the whole body" for the movement devoted to the kansetsu waza, or use the whole body to control the other person's body?

Or neither, perhaps?



But, if I understand you correctly, you have no problem with a "chunner" cross training in, say, Japanese jujutsu, or judo-it's just BJJ you have a beef with, right?

Depends on the joint and the muscle mass around the joint.
I like JJJ I'm just not a fan of alot of mixing WC with BJJ. I don't see the two mixing well, and find that WC "answers" most attacks that you come across in a very effecient way.
I don't see BJJ as anywhere near as effecient. Just an opinion.

To use your whole body to lock out an elbow is not effecient in my view.

[Si-Je]

The bottom line is if you don't practice some form of ground fighting of some type with your Wing Chun then you are unprepared for reality , and it means you are sailing a boat down that river in Egypt .

DENIAL

I don't think anyone's saying that. Groundfighting has been apart of MA forever. I just study a different ground fighting style.

And for Elder, if you want to know who he's studied under it's been posted on the forum many times. And no, he's not active duty anymore. 18 years was enough for him. lol! After Iraq part one, and Afganastan he left service.
Ask Force Recon how much they use BJJ. lol!

[MJS]

MMA isn't real fighting.
Pick another BJJ technique, your choice, I'll tell you the counter.
And BJJ doesn't have an "answer" to being pummelled like that.

I would tell you a possible solution, but why bother...you'd just argue and disregard it like you have everything else.

[jarrod]

No. BJJ wasn't in the curriculum. It's a drill for fun. They do in the sand. Not apart of the actual combat training. That would not be useful with 100lbs of gear and armor on with a machine gun in you hands.
I'll let him anwser you ignorant questions when he gets home. ;)

nothing in marine corps training is "just for fun". we covered very simple guard passing in boot camp, though it wasn't the focus in our hand-to-hand.

jf

[elder999]

No. BJJ wasn't in the curriculum. It's a drill for fun. They do in the sand. Not apart of the actual combat training. That would not be useful with 100lbs of gear and armor on with a machine gun in you hands.


It was my understanding that BJJ was incorporated as part of the curriculum, in part because of the Marines possibly being deployed in situations where they weren't actually "in actual combat," or, at least, in situations where less than lethal force might be in order.In any case, apparently the Marines do think it would be useful at some time, because they did make it part of the curriculum.

Of course, even if it's just "a drill for fun," it becomes part of the skillset-especially that of a "4th degree black belt instructor."

In any case, here's what Lt. Col. Shusko, one of the main creators and designers of the program, has to say about MCMAP and BJJ:



Among the fighting styles appropriated for MCMAP, Col. Shusko demonstrates the grappling techniques of Brazilian jujitsu, which mostly consists of ground-fighting submission holds and joint locks that he likes to call "wristy twisties."

These techniques are designed to control the enemy, to break bones and, if necessary, to kill.
Col. Shusko also teaches throwing techniques according to the Japanese art of judo and kicking skills from the Korean style of self-defense known as tae kwon do.
In addition, Thai boxing -- with its emphasis on elbow and knee strikes to inflict damage -- figures into the MCMAP curriculum.
"We did not invent anything," Col. Shusko says, "Just took the best and put it into our program."
Since lethal force is not always needed in defensive situations, the colonel schools his trainees in techniques similar to those used by U.S. police officers to make arrests or subdue suspects.
But MCMAP training involves more than merely learning how to fight. It's about learning how to be a modern-day warrior -- tough, confident and able without the ego-gratifying need to prove it.
It's about entering a bar and knowing you can handle any situation that may occur, not sizing up the competition and picking a fight, Col. Shusko says.


Seen here (http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/516-2774.aspx)


Of course, you can also view the protocol for MCMAP online, at Marine Corps Order 1500.54 (http://www.usmc.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO%201500.54A.pdf). Please note that on page 24, where the requirements for gray belt are listed, a "Groundfighting" component appears for the first time. In it, the trainee is expected to execute an "armbar from the mount," and an "armbar from the guard" terms that, while no longer exclusive to BJJ, come to the lexicon directly from BJJ. Of course, growing up, I knew the guard as do jime, or do osae, but they were pretty much illegal in judo.

Please also note that the groundfighting component continues and expands through rank requirements listed through 1st degree black belt, including the infamous "triangle choke." :lol:



I'll let him anwser you ignorant questions when he gets home. ;)

"Ignorant questions?" Isn't that "somewhat redundant," perhaps even "overly redundant?" :lfao:

I mean, not actually being a Marine-I only work with a few of them from time to time-I'll admit my ignorance;that's why I'm asking questions. Of course, my confusion stems from what little I do know-having been told and shown as much by a few good men, and seen for myself in manuals and on video. I anxiously await enlightenment....:asian:


nothing in marine corps training is "just for fun". we covered very simple guard passing in boot camp, though it wasn't the focus in our hand-to-hand.

jf

I'm sure a few other Marines will chime in, if only to supplement my obviously limited knowledge. Thanks, Jarrod.

[elder999]

And for Elder, if you want to know who he's studied under it's been posted on the forum many times.!

Actually, while I may have missed it, after having reviewed all of your and Mystic Wolf's posts, I have to say that, no, that information hasn't been posted on the forum "many times."

Of course, just typing the names would have been just as easy as your answer, and WAAAAAY easier than searching for the information.

[elder999]

Depends on the joint and the muscle mass around the joint.

Well, no-while the muscle mass and the use of it may prevent the joint in question from being locked, the amount of force required to "break" the joint isn't dependent upon muscle mass at all, once the lock has been achieved.



I like JJJ I'm just not a fan of alot of mixing WC with BJJ I don't see the two mixing well, and find that WC "answers" most attacks that you come across in a very effecient way.
I don't see BJJ as anywhere near as effecient. Just an opinion.

Hmmm....does that mean that you're in favor of mixing WC with JJJ? Or not?

WC "answers" most standing attacks, and it's principles can be applied by the adept person on the ground, but I don't (and here's where I'm gonna chime in on the original question) see that mixing the two is a bad thing at all-you train in BJJ and you learn more about what the person who has that kind of trianing will do on the ground, and other ways of countering it. You also get comfortable with being on the ground, so there isn't so much panic in trying to regain your feet in a self-defense situation. And, since there is grappling in WC, albeit of the stand-up variety, it blends nicely with takedown techniques found in judo, JJJ and more traditional BJJ-that is to say, BJJ not geared towards MMA and tournaments.



To use your whole body to lock out an elbow is not effecient in my view.

Still not really sure what you mean by this-or sure that you know what you mean by it, at any rate.

"Using the whole body" in any technique, is what some would call the very height of efficiency-but that's almost another discussion.......

[KamonGuy2]

I can't believe we are still here.

I as looking through youtub last night and I actually found seminars hosted jointly by Samuel Kwok and Carlson Gracie

I know that James Sinclair invites Rick Young (black belt BJJ) to help teach his students

I just think Si jee is very proud of wing chun and his afraid of 'polluting' it with another style

The point she is missing is that wing chun has already been polluted

If you go back a hundred years, most karate systems will remain the same (same moves etc)
Wing chun however will be extremely different. Even Ip Chun mentions that chum kil was changed from when his father taught it to various practitioners, and that was 40/50 years ago

I understand that people want to get away from complimenting their art with another style for fear of being labelled MMA, but sometimes you just have to know the arts limits

I really do hate this high almighty attitude that wing chun is the best thing out there. It is a great art and very useful, but it is not flawless

For further clarification just type in wing chun vs into youtube and see where people fail (rigid guards, fixed traditional moves etc)

BJJ practitioners are extremely humble and most of the time have no need to argue about these kind of things. They know that realistically they need to strike and so most BJJ guys take up boxing or MT or karate for something different

They don't spend hours arguing on a forum about the purity of BJJ. Those who do train in boxing etc - they are still good BJJ practitioners (ie the boxing hasn't taken anything away from their art), so why should wing chunners be any different.

Anyway, this is getting boring. Elder and MJS - if you're ever in the London area I'll take you for a pint. Si-jee - you aren't invited lol

[profesormental]

Kamon Guy, I agree with your assessment.

It is a personal decision to train in other methods, and Wing Chun changes with each passing generation. And that is ok.

As mentioned before, in the 50's and 60's, there were so few martial artists that most would train with everyone they could, just to have people to train with! They shared and learned because they were very dedicated to becoming better.

Well, that is an opportunity that we still have. And I decide to take it.

The question is what can be learned from this discussion at this point?

Juan M. Mercado

[elder999]

The question is what can be learned from this discussion at this point?

Juan M. Mercado


That Si-Je's hubby is probably going to get owned in the cage if it goes to the ground? :lfao:

[Seeker]

profesormental[/LEFT];1117424]
The question is what can be learned from this discussion at this point?

Juan M. Mercado

Some people will take the journey across the river, but will refuse to leave the boat believing the boat to be the destination?

[MJS]

I can't believe we are still here.

In all honesty, neither can I. I think I will be bowing out of this thread. The horse is dead 10 times over and won't be coming back to life.


I as looking through youtub last night and I actually found seminars hosted jointly by Samuel Kwok and Carlson Gracie

I know that James Sinclair invites Rick Young (black belt BJJ) to help teach his students

I just think Si jee is very proud of wing chun and his afraid of 'polluting' it with another style

The point she is missing is that wing chun has already been polluted

If you go back a hundred years, most karate systems will remain the same (same moves etc)
Wing chun however will be extremely different. Even Ip Chun mentions that chum kil was changed from when his father taught it to various practitioners, and that was 40/50 years ago

I understand that people want to get away from complimenting their art with another style for fear of being labelled MMA, but sometimes you just have to know the arts limits

I really do hate this high almighty attitude that wing chun is the best thing out there. It is a great art and very useful, but it is not flawless

For further clarification just type in wing chun vs into youtube and see where people fail (rigid guards, fixed traditional moves etc)

Great points. I doubt that there is anything 100% pure out there. As proof of that, if that were the case, then every (insert art here) would be teaching the same. Every Kenpo guy would look identical, every TKD guy would, as well as every boxer, BJJ guy, etc. It is nice to know though, that the folks you mention above, are open minded enough to expand their WC and bring in a BJJ person.


BJJ practitioners are extremely humble and most of the time have no need to argue about these kind of things. They know that realistically they need to strike and so most BJJ guys take up boxing or MT or karate for something different

I've seen quite a few that seem to think that you dont need striking, and that only BJJ will suffice. I think we saw proof of this with Royce and Matt. Royces striking skill was less than impressive IMO.


They don't spend hours arguing on a forum about the purity of BJJ. Those who do train in boxing etc - they are still good BJJ practitioners (ie the boxing hasn't taken anything away from their art), so why should wing chunners be any different.

Oh, you'd be surprised. Of course, I'm sure there are some that do fall into the category that you mention though, and those are the more open minded ones. :)


Anyway, this is getting boring. Elder and MJS - if you're ever in the London area I'll take you for a pint. Si-jee - you aren't invited lol

Thank you for the offer. :)

[Si-Je]

Well, no-while the muscle mass and the use of it may prevent the joint in question from being locked, the amount of force required to "break" the joint isn't dependent upon muscle mass at all, once the lock has been achieved.
.......

sigh, so you say. I'll go with the guy that's studied body mechanics. I'll go with the JJJ teachers that taught me those techniques in the first place. I'll go with my own experiece of achieving the joint lock will little force and little effort. Chin Na makes these techniques even more effecient.



Hmmm....does that mean that you're in favor of mixing WC with JJJ? Or not? ........

No. I tried to do that when I first started training WC. It doesn't work simply because you have to use both hands to lock out the joint. you use both hands with kote gashie, both hands with armbars, both hands with chokes, both hand with throws. WC/WT does this with one hand. same joint lock just very small and subtle differences.


WC "answers" most standing attacks, and it's principles can be applied by the adept person on the ground, but I don't (and here's where I'm gonna chime in on the original question) see that mixing the two is a bad thing at all-you train in BJJ and you learn more about what the person who has that kind of trianing will do on the ground, and other ways of countering it. You also get comfortable with being on the ground, so there isn't so much panic in trying to regain your feet in a self-defense situation. And, since there is grappling in WC, albeit of the stand-up variety, it blends nicely with takedown techniques found in judo, JJJ and more traditional BJJ-that is to say, BJJ not geared towards MMA and tournaments........

Do you train wing chun?
Well, there's alot of misconceptions on WC especially WT and the ground fighting developed by Sifu Emin. We teach beginning anti-grappling techniques to students from the outset but the really good stuff you can't get into until the student learns Chun Kiu.
I see that mixing the two is detrimental if your going to learn the last range in WC/WT. By replacing grappling with WC/WT techniques at that range teachers are losing this range by simply not teaching it, and replacing it with BJJ. I don't like to see this happen, especially since I'm just now really learning this range of WC/WT combat.
The good thing out of all this is that chatting on here has refined my WC/WT theory especially in advanced anti-grappling. You really just can't explain it online or in videos. You HAVE to feel it. We drilled Bong Girk last night on the ground and it was awesome! That 'leg chi sau" I keep referring too. Like bong sau with your leg. exactly like bong sau on with your leg and used against grappling technqiues to "pass your guard", get between your legs, pass a leg to get to your side, and the mount. Thwarts these attempts very well. :)



Still not really sure what you mean by this-or sure that you know what you mean by it, at any rate........

What on earth is he doing here? Is your opponent just going to stand there while you flip your legs into the air and jump on the arm?!
How is this akin to WC/WT principle? Apples and Oranges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPSvOTM2lz0

I hate this guard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx864b1eSYY
For the Wing Chunners, instead of locking your ankles out behind them. turn your knees inward like WC basic stance with abduction and use foreward force/pressure with the knees to keep their body weight off you while defending with the hands from your back. Warding off chokes, locks, punches just like chi sau. ;)

This looks like a great way to get your neck broken. If the guy is strong enough to pick you up by the very legs you latch around his waiste then he can slam you on your back/neck to the ground. How is this advantageous? How do you defend against another person that may help him attack you while your on the ground messing with the first attacker?
Then as he changes his leg position his face is open for punches. What if a WC'er was standing there and chainpunching his face? Would he remember this technique that takes a long time to switch from one position to another? Seems like alot of work just to get an ankle lock. And the opponent can get you in the very same lock. lol! I've seen that happen in fights plenty!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiafSZMl5Kk



"Using the whole body" in any technique, is what some would call the very height of efficiency-but that's almost another discussion.......

Not like that. Too much work, takes too long, too many movements.

[MJS]

Kamon Guy, I agree with your assessment.

It is a personal decision to train in other methods, and Wing Chun changes with each passing generation. And that is ok.

As mentioned before, in the 50's and 60's, there were so few martial artists that most would train with everyone they could, just to have people to train with! They shared and learned because they were very dedicated to becoming better.

Well, that is an opportunity that we still have. And I decide to take it.

The question is what can be learned from this discussion at this point?

Juan M. Mercado

For the sake of sticking with the forum rules, I'll modify what I'd really like to say. LOL! Serious though, I think that you see a few different groups. They are as follows...

Group 1: This group is dead set against anything other than what is contained in their base art. They will not allow anything to 'taint' their base art.

Group 2: This group is open minded and is open to suggestions from others. They have no issues with working with others, and if it means adding in something that is not part of their base art, they do so.

[MJS]

That Si-Je's hubby is probably going to get owned in the cage if it goes to the ground? :lfao:

You're lucky I wasn't drinking anything when I read this, otherwise, you'd owe me a new keyboard. :D

[Si-Je]

That Si-Je's hubby is probably going to get owned in the cage if it goes to the ground? :lfao:


Hasn't happened yet. lol!
You really pride yourself on being rude, and assuming you know what another fighter will do whom you've never met. Just making an ass out of u but not me. lol!

He's used what he knows in true combat and didn't have a lick of use for BJJ in Recon. Get real.

[Si-Je]

For the sake of sticking with the forum rules, I'll modify what I'd really like to say. LOL! Serious though, I think that you see a few different groups. They are as follows...

Group 1: This group is dead set against anything other than what is contained in their base art. They will not allow anything to 'taint' their base art.

Group 2: This group is open minded and is open to suggestions from others. They have no issues with working with others, and if it means adding in something that is not part of their base art, they do so.

There is NO group 1. Apparently just me and Sifu. Yoshi seem to agree. It doesn't have anything to do with "tainting" my base art. It has to do with USING my base art to the full extent of it's technique.

It seems that Group 2 either trains WC as a secondary art to give stand up "game" to their base art of BJJ or grappling. Or they just don't have any faith in WC when it comes to the street or the ground. Don't bother to learn to strike at grappling range, learn the chin na starting from Chum Kiu. Their willing to learn a whole 'nutta art to supplement their WC/WT but are not openminded enough to even attempt to apply the WC principles and concepts to ground combat. Or even TRY the anti-grappling in the Kwoon/Gym.

[Si-Je]

Anyway, this is getting boring. Elder and MJS - if you're ever in the London area I'll take you for a pint. Si-jee - you aren't invited lol


I have no desire to train with a WC stylist that doesn't believe in his own art. And I only drink with those I like. :)

[The Last Legionary]

Table for 2!

[Si-Je]

Actually, while I may have missed it, after having reviewed all of your and Mystic Wolf's posts, I have to say that, no, that information hasn't been posted on the forum "many times."

Of course, just typing the names would have been just as easy as your answer, and WAAAAAY easier than searching for the information.

Not that it will matter to you or anyone here.
He's trained with Sifu Jim Fung, and Sifu Emin Boztepe. When he trained with Boztepe that's when he was helping to develop MCMAP, they use some of the anti-grappling although they may not reconize it as that. BJJ wasn't even around when hubbie was training in the marine corps. Several seargents worked on developing MCMAP. They mixed Aiki Ju-Jitsu, muy tai, Kempo, Judo, and yes, even a bit of WC. ;)

This has been stated by me several times here. Right here in the WC forum.

[MJS]

I have no desire to train with a WC stylist that doesn't believe in his own art. And I only drink with those I like. :)

Difference. We can have someone who is totally clueless and blind and someone who is still loyal, but has their eyes open.

Sorry, I disagree with you sije. I'm loyal to Kenpo. I've been doing it for 24yrs. I'm just not wearing rose colored glasses and keep my cup empty and open to new things.

That is another goal of the arts...to be humble, and to accept the fact that nobody or no one is perfect or ultimate.

[elder999]

Not that it will matter to you or anyone here.
He's trained with Sifu Jim Fung, and Sifu Emin Boztepe. When he trained with Boztepe that's when he was helping to develop MCMAP, they use some of the anti-grappling although they may not reconize it as that. BJJ wasn't even around when hubbie was training in the marine corps. Several seargents worked on developing MCMAP. They mixed Aiki Ju-Jitsu, muy tai, Kempo, Judo, and yes, even a bit of WC. ;)

This has been stated by me several times here. Right here in the WC forum.

Okay, that's better-see how easy it was? You could even have just done this:


He's trained with Sifu Jim Fung, and Sifu Emin Boztepe.
:lol:

I'll take another look at the rest of what you had to say-like, I'm a little curious about the age of "hubby," and when he served. I mean, BJJ's been "around" since around 1921, when Helio Gracie observed his brothers training in the judo his family learned, and it's been in the U.S. since the 80's, when Rorion Gracie started teaching there. Additionally, the Marine Corps didn't develop MCMAOP until some time between 1997 and 1999, and didn't officially implement it until 2000. BJJ was certainly around at the time, in any case-even during when the Marines were using the LINE system....



You really pride yourself on being rude,

Not being rude, yet. THough I have to ask, are you taking any medication? Seriously.Haldol?Clozapine? Lithium Carbonate?

The reason I ask is that I did a little search for "Jim Fung" among your posts, and I found this nugget, which I've added some emphasis to:




WT is made to change and evolve. Many schools don't want to do this, they stay with the old and don't try the new. Bruce Lee changed WC, anti-grappling is a new concept for many people who don't want to accept it as Wing Chun concept. This is very unfortunate, for them. I am still relatively new to WC, but my openness has allowed me to be more accepting of new ideas, and techniques, and to reconize it's weaknesses. Thus, I have learned much from my teacher. Who's teacher was both Fung and Emin. He's taken two different styles of WT/WC and combined them.

I've very happy about this, because it just makes better wing chun. Most in the art won't share and combine their skills, their too busy fussing, arguing, declaring who's the best, and critizising to stop and learn something from eachother. Real bummer, dude.

Like kids in a playground, their missing out on something better than ego, who's right, who's better, which style is "pure", etc. Both of my teachers teachers come directly from Yip Man. Fung we're third generation from Yip man, and same on Ling Ting side. Pretty good "lineage". lol!
the whole lineage thing always make me feel like I'm a thurobred horse or something! lol!

Relax peoples! and learn to be open to try new stuff. look at it on video all you want, but don't make up your mind before you try it. You'll miss out.

Earlier in that same thread, you also posted that Emin had studied, in addition to Turkish Wrestling, Brazilian jujitsu.

So, I gotta wonder what your beef is-and apparently, it's one that you have with yourself, even-hence the "rude" medication question....:lfao:

[The Last Legionary]

No single art holds all the answers, and it's an arrogant fool who thinks it does.
Wing Chun is a wonderful art, but so are many others, equally good.
Kenpo has a stick section, but it pales compared to the information found in the FMA.
BJJ doesn't have weapon techniques.
Iaido and Aikido compliment each other because each fills in what the other lacks.
and so on.
Wing Chun has components for a ground game, and for weapon game, but both are better developed in other arts. Now, it's possible that SiJi's branch has added and expended to encompass a more robust skill set, but that doesn't make it Wing Chun, not in the pure sense. That makes it MMA. Without the cuddling.

(Puts in ear plugs to block out the coming screech)

[MJS]

Off the martial arts topic for a minute. Let me ask the following.

Is someone who goes to med. school wrong for wanting to specialize in something other than just being a gen. pract.? So a guy that wants to focus on sports medicine, one that wants to focus on the heart, one that wants to focus on plastic surgery, one that wants to focus on ears/nose/throat, one that wants to focus on eyes. They all must be wrong and they've tainted their medical future because they went on.

What about a chef? Go to culinary school and you'll learn about this and that. But, if you wanted to focus on pastery or food from a particular culture. Those people must be wrong.

What about a builder. Hmm...he has a guy for the foundation, for electrical, for plumbing. One guy can't do it all, so his houses must be ****, because he needs specialists to help him.

What about a high school teacher? You have some that focus on math, some that focus on Spanish, Franch or Italian, some that focus on computers. Should one teacher be able to do it all? They all must suck because they go off and focus on a certain area.

Sigh...why do I even bother anymore.

[The Last Legionary]

There is nothing wrong with specializing.
What is wrong is specializing and insisting you aren't.
I see an excellent chiroprctor, but I don't rely on him as the sole source of healing.

[MJS]

Okay, that's better-see how easy it was? You could even have just done this:


:lol:

I'll take another look at the rest of what you had to say-like, I'm a little curious about the age of "hubby," and when he served. I mean, BJJ's been "around" since around 1921, when Helio Gracie observed his brothers training in the judo his family learned, and it's been in the U.S. since the 80's, when Rorion Gracie started teaching there. Additionally, the Marine Corps didn't develop MCMAOP until some time between 1997 and 1999, and didn't officially implement it until 2000. BJJ was certainly around at the time, in any case-even during when the Marines were using the LINE system....



Not being rude, yet. THough I have to ask, are you taking any medication? Seriously.Haldol?Clozapine? Lithium Carbonate?

The reason I ask is that I did a little search for "Jim Fung" among your posts, and I found this nugget, which I've added some emphasis to:




Earlier in that same thread, you also posted that Emin had studied, in addition to Turkish Wrestling, Brazilian jujitsu.

So, I gotta wonder what your beef is-and apparently, it's one that you have with yourself, even-hence the "rude" medication question....:lfao:


*pulling up a chair, grabbing some :-popcorn: and a cool :drinkbeereagerly awaiting the reply to this gem.* And yes, yes indeed, that was quite the nugget of info. Hmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but me thinks that theres a bit of contradicting wording from that post, to what she preaches lately.

[The Last Legionary]

:-popcorn::drinkbeer:lfao:

[dungeonworks]

MMA isn't real fighting.
Pick another BJJ technique, your choice, I'll tell you the counter.
And BJJ doesn't have an "answer" to being pummelled like that.

You are correct. MMA isn't real fighting, and is a sport, but it's the closest thing we have to real fighting without the loss of eyes or death. Also, there is full contact with minimal padding, take downs, stand up striking, ground striking, submissions, wrestling...ect. With the removal of a few rules, you do have a fight and therefore the technique is relevant as well as pressure testing various techniques.

IMHO and past experiences in various situations/confrontations, MMA would have been very useful. It is downright funny that some on here will hurry up and post all the hoo-rah about Wing Chun fighting in the cage in one thread only to turn around in another and tout how it isn't meant for the cage and MMA isn't real fighting and that Wing Chun is the total ULTIMATE combat system that other styles "No can defend!" (Mr. Myagi). I agree that Wing Chun is a great and full art, but as with ALL of martial arts, none have the complete answer for everybody.

...then there is BJJ. You totally discount the art and that is fine, we all have opinions. What is laughable though, is this disdain and spite you have for an art that is proven and has been for a hundred years with film footage to boot! I have never ever seen any real Wing Chun footage showing any of the masters figthing....chi sao? Yes, but not actual fighting. Any of the full contact "sparring" (sparring isn't a real fight, and just a sport, right? :uhyeah:) clips I have seen claiming to be Wing Chun are shot down by other Chunner's in the comment areas. Things like "his structure sucked" or "totally used the bong sau wrong, that ain't Wing Chun!" and "That isn't real Wing Chun, he should have just tan'ed out of that rear-naked-choke!"....not exact quotes, but you can read comments on any given YouTube or Google video you like. Wing Chunner's cannot even agree on what constitutes Wing Chun....UNLESS A CLAIMED CHUNNER WINS, then it is just a big SEE, WING CHUN WORKS IN MMA!!! chorus. When the chunner loses, you hear the comments of it wasn't real wing chun or wing chun isn't made for the ring....take your pick.


The whole start of this thread was born from reading an article about Sam Kwok and Carlson Gracie Jr. and listening to master's of their respective style discuss meshing the stand-up of Wing Chun and BJJ. Seeing that Carlon Gracie Jr. has documented footage of his fights and is very experienced in fighting, I found it nice to see someone of his martial pedigree see something in Wing Chun and vise versa with Sam Kwok. That is all. Nothing more.

Then, as similarly happens on EVERY Wing Chun forum in cyberspace, the two fearless leaders of the Wing Chun blinder wearing bandwagon came out, derailed thread...and the rest is history.

[dungeonworks]

I have no desire to train with a WC stylist that doesn't believe in his own art. And I only drink with those I like. :)


That's funny, I thought you mentioned Kamon owed you a pint if you were ever in London....5-6 pages later you won't drink with him??? LOL

[elder999]

That's funny, I thought you mentioned Kamon owed you a pint if you were ever in London....5-6 pages later you won't drink with him??? LOL

Shhhh! I'm right-she's obviously off her meds....:lfao:

[Bob Hubbard]

Lets lose the personal shots folks.

[elder999]

Lets lose the personal shots folks.


You're right. I apologize,

Si-Je, I'm sorry about the whole "medication" thing.

I also apologize to anyone else who takes anti-psychotics, or other medication-that was insensitive of me....:asian:

[Steve]

Cognitive Dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance): In psychology, cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling or stress caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a fundamental cognitive drive to reduce this dissonance by modifying an existing belief, or rejecting one of the contradictory ideas.

[Si-Je]

Yes Elder I find you very rude, and condesending. And unable to take or even understand a joke.
And no, I don't see BJJ as a very capable self-defense style. It works great in the ring, especially MMA rules which allow it to excell.
I know many people like to train it, and many that do are good folks. But I meet many, usually online, that are very arrogant and close minded about ground fighting. They and YOU seem to feel that it is the unbeatable ground fighting style.
I have found that to be untrue. I've had different experiences with BJJ because I don't fight a BJJ stylist with BJJ.

If Sifu Emin studied other grappling arts does that totally negate the anti-grappling he derived from that knowledge? There is a big difference between learning a grappling style and adding it to your WC curriculum and studing it to discover how it can be beaten using WC techniques and principles.
Sifu Emin studied most of those other arts before he even trained WT. He trained TKD (or some variant) boxing, turkish wrestling too. But, later he started training WT. Someone like him who has been in MA for most of his life is bound to have trained other arts. Does this fact make his WT less "pure" or less of a traditional art? I don't think so.

As for Hubbie. He's 43. He was in the USMC around 1997-2000. I think he got out in 2004-05ish. And yes, he was a MCMAP trainer and helped incoroporate what they teach today. BJJ wasn't noted until the mid to late nintys when UFC exposed it world wide, and in the states. They may have taught before then elsewhere, but most had never even heard of it. So, it's an art that's about what, 70 years old?
Pretty new art as arts go. And it's claim to fame came in the mid to late 90's?

I do think it's pretty hilarious that the same fellas on here go constantly back and forth missing what I've been saying pretty consistantly, and still trying to change my opinion on using the art of BJJ with my WC/WT skill set. I guess I can understand why a beginning student to WC/WT would find it attractive because their not to the level yet to understand and apply the anti-grappling, and because only one school teaches it. (now two, lol!)
So it's not as readily available to every wing chunner.
But, that doen't make it uneffective, it just makes it misunderstood. Just because there's a BJJ school everywhere you turn it's just easier to train from that school. And I do think it odd that people come to a WC thread and plug BJJ. That's pretty rude if you think about it. I guess I should go to the BJJ threads and plug WC and treat people rudely that disagree with me. lol!
You go to a WC thread and try to force BJJ down people's throats saying their WC is useless without it, you're going to get resistance. (I'm disapointed how little resistance. But, it seems most WC students are already under the assumption that they will be beaten by a BJJ stylist. Their defeated before they even get into the fight/ring. Very unfortunate.)

Plus, the way I see it: It takes 10 years to learn the full system of Wing Chun. And it takes 10 years to learn the full system of BJJ. So, your looking at taking 20 years of martial arts training to achieve the same end if you just studied WC for the 10 years.
It just seems like extra work to me. Like I've said, take it if you want, it's a great sport. But, my interest lies in learning realistic street self-defense, so my goals in training are geared towards that end.

If you see MMA as the closest thing we've got to realistic combat, that may be true. But, realize that arts that are COMPLETELY focused on realistic combat cannot use a vast majority of their technique under MMA rules. So, in essence, it's as far from realistic combat as sparring in the dojo/Kwoon/Gym.
This perception misleads many into believing an art that does well in the ring under strict rules is a viable art in the street. I find that this could be very dangerous to someone who may find out otherwise at a point in time where their very life is on the line. Not a good time to come to realize that what you've been training hasn't prepared you to survive. Especially when fighting more than one attacker.

Many seem to believe that the way to counter WC/WT or any powerful striking art is to get the fighter in the clinch and/or take them to the ground. Why is this? It works sometimes. It's worked for Gracie in the early years of UFC when no one had EVER seen this style of fighting, and of course wasn't prepared to defend against it.
I do recall Gracie being beaten by a midwestern wrestler. And what won the fight was the fact he struck him on the ground until they stopped the fight.
So, what does this teach us? That striking counters out BJJ on the ground?
So, thus, can you not utilize anti-grappling and WC/WT striking while on the ground against a BJJ stylist? Sounds very probable to me. Plus, I've seen it in person. I've done it myself. Yes, in class. But, when you have a BJJ stylist "visiting" to test out your WC in class, trying to disprove everything your teaching in front of your students, I wouldn't call that guy a "compliant opponent". And they weren't. And they were countered every move with anti-grappling. And they never came back again.
So what does that tell us? Some BJJ or MMA guys still like coming to WC schools and trying to "embarress" the Sifu? They sure do. That they feel embarressed when they cannot make the "silly sifu" look bad in front of his own students? Sure seems like it from the point of view of someone who's owned a school and experienced this several times.

As always, our class is open to anyone who wants to train, learn, test out the style, challenge, or spar the Sifu. He loves it. He's looking for guys closer to his size and weight. So, anyone 6ft. and more (preferrably more) and 225lbs or more (again, prefferably more. lol!) please feel free to stop by and test out the anti-grappling on Sifu. He's training for MMA cage fighting and would love the practice.
Note: we do alot of this without the matts, so folks that wish to truely challenge the anti-grappling, that will be done on the hard floor as Sifu trains. If you can't handle doing BJJ on the concrete then reconcider what style you use on the concrete. Beginners in anti-grappling use the matts at our school.

As for the MCMAP, we have a student in class right now that is in the Marine Corps, and training MCMAP. He doesn't know a lick of BJJ, has never been shown BJJ. So, wherever their training it to whoever in the USMC I've yet to meet a marine that traines, knows, or even likes BJJ. The Army on the other hand traines alot of BJJ.

Anyways, very amusing to chat with BJJ and grappling stylists that are so very knowledgable in the art of Wing Chun, come to a WC thread and declare that WC technique is worthless against a "good grappler". Based on little to no knowledge of WC/WT technique, principle, or concepts.

Quiz time grapplers:
What are the 5 principles of Wing Chun?
Go ahead and google it, post it like you know it, and then explain what each mean and how you would apply it using WC technique. You do that, that would be a start where I might actually "listen" to what you have to say when trying to state that BJJ training complement's WC principles and concepts.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I love this thread.

[elder999]

Yes Elder I find you very rude, and condesending. And unable to take or even understand a joke.

Pot? Kettle? :lfao:

I'm not even going to get into all your erroneous info on jujutsu, locks, "two-handedness," etc., etc., etc. I'm just going to point out that by your own admission, you've only had 3 years of JJJ training....I don't want to seem condescending or anything, but that's-as jarrod pointed out-really just enough to be competent in this day and age.




As for Hubbie. He's 43. He was in the USMC around 1997-2000. I think he got out in 2004-05ish. And yes, he was a MCMAP trainer and helped incoroporate what they teach today. BJJ wasn't noted until the mid to late nintys when UFC exposed it world wide, and in the states. They may have taught before then elsewhere, but most had never even heard of it. So, it's an art that's about what, 70 years old?

Actually, that makes it older than Krav Maga, and who's counting?

I don't doubt that he's all that he says he is. I do doubt that he's all that you say he is, since it sounds more and more like you're not quite sure what you're talking about.



As for the MCMAP, we have a student in class right now that is in the Marine Corps, and training MCMAP. He doesn't know a lick of BJJ, has never been shown BJJ. So, wherever their training it to whoever in the USMC I've yet to meet a marine that traines, knows, or even likes BJJ. The Army on the other hand traines alot of BJJ.

Yeah, this looks a lot more like WC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_vvxgZNxW8&feature=related):rolleyes:

The Instructor's Course (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jbq7Z9ImOw&feature=related) also appears to contain a lot of "anti-grappling." :lfao:

THis one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxWpEaEugpg) looks pretty deadly, even with that soundtrack!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olrHBrW1Iu0&feature=related

I can post lots, and lots, and lots more MCMAP groundfighting that has all the elements of what you've described here as "inefficient," or undesirable-including going into a BJJ guard, "two handed" joint locks, and use of body leverage/torque-of course, that's not all the videos show in some cases, because that's not all MCMAP is-but it is a part of what it is. Heck, I've even found video of two guys grappling from the knees, ala BJJ....

[JadecloudAlchemist]

What are the 5 principles of Wing Chun?


Is it this:





Go forward (問路尋橋手先行) Advance immediately in order to establish contact with the limbs (allowing for Chi Sao reflexes to take over) or — even better — to strike first. This counter intuitive reaction will often surprise the attacker, and moves the fight into a close distance in which tactile reflexes will dominate over visual reactions, where the Wing Tsun practitioner is likely to have an advantage.
Stick to the opponent (手黐手,無訂(地方)走) If you are unable to strike and disable your opponent, but instead make contact with some part of his body (other than his face, throat, etc.), stick to it. Often this will be an opponent's arm; if you maintain constant contact with his arms, how can he launch an attack at you without your knowing? This applies for the time only when the opponent is blocking your shortest way of attack. Once there is opportunity, you give up sticking, and go in with your attack (flow).
Yield to a greater force (用巧勁，避拙力-即借力） Since one cannot expect to be stronger than every potential attacker, one must train in such a way as to be able to win even against a stronger opponent. Chi Sao teaches the reflexes necessary to react to an opponent's attacks. When an attack is simply stronger than yours, your trained reflexes will tell your body to move out of the way of the attack and find another angle for attack.
Follow through (迫步追形) As an extension of the first principle, if an opponent retreats, a WingTsun practitioner's immediate response is to continue moving forward, not allowing the opponent to recover and have an opportunity to reconsider his strategy of attack. Many styles that rely on visual cues prefer to step back and wait and time their attacks, as commonly seen in sport and tournament fighting.

I find the same concepts in Judo and Jujutsu which also must be in BJJ since BJJ comes from Judo which comes from Jujutsu. I find these same concepts in every martial art at its highest level.
I find ground fighting can work in a street fight IF you know how to apply it. From the fights I have been in and the fights I have seen these things take place 1.Someone usually bridges the gap and clinches in some way 2. Someone to avoid strikes usually goes for some sort of takedown 3. Usually the person is over the person on the ground and ground and pounding him.

Just a point of the deadly eye gouge and throat strike a grappler can apply this to so using it as a comp out as "teh deadly" does not really apply. If you feel your art is sufficient enough then thats you and not everyone is going to agree with you same as you will not agree with others to each their own.

Quick question Si Jie what Jujutsu school or Ryuha did you train in?

[Steve]

While off topic, regarding the Marines, McMap and BJJ, I found this interesting article from November, 08. http://www.marines.mil/units/marforpac/imef/1stmardiv/5thregiment/rct5/Pages/Marinesgrapplewithjiu-jitsuindeployeddojo.aspx

Among other things, the article talks about the positive benefits of teaching soldiers grappling, as well as mentioning that BJJ is one of the sub-disciplines included in the MCMAP program.



“It motivated me that I could be a Marine and still do mixed martial arts at the same time,” Mendez said, referring to teaching MCMAP, which counts jiu-jitsu as one of its sub-disciplines. “So it’s very nice to be able to bring this to the Marines while we’re out here in Iraq.”

It’s a fun pastime for Lance Cpl. Dana Hineline, who provides convoy security with CLB-2, but she also sees immediate application of jiu-jitsu to her Marine duties.
“If I ever have to stop someone and doesn’t have a weapon, I’ll be able to take them down,” said Hineline, 20, a native of Kennesaw, Ga. “I have to search females, and sometimes males, and if they get violent I can protect myself and control the situation.”

While the fighting styles are helpful for close-quarters combat, the Marines get other benefits out of the jiu-jitsu discipline.

“I like to focus on the moral and spiritual aspects, as well,” Roeder said. “They really get to know who they are out here and they learn sportsmanship.”

“The more you teach, the more you learn yourself,” said Mendez, who is happy Roeder, someone with similar skill levels, is around to practice with. “We keep each other on our toes.”

And they keep the students on their toes, too, ready to learn and eager to come back for more.

Of course, I feel compelled to add once again the disclaimer: this is not to say that BJJ is the best art around or that anyone not interested in training in BJJ should do so. I'm strictly responding to allegations that BJJ isn't a part of MCMAP and that Marines have no use for it.

Edit: I'm having a great time reading through the Marines website. Here's another article about a soldier's experience with BJJ, MCMAP and MMA training: http://www.marines.mil/units/marforcom/iimef/2ndmlg/Pages/Itallcomesdowntoyou.aspx

[elder999]

Of course, I feel compelled to add once again the disclaimer: this is not to say that BJJ is the best art around or that anyone not interested in training in BJJ should do so. I'm strictly responding to allegations that BJJ isn't a part of MCMAP and that Marines have no use for it.

I'll second that-while in its original form, it had a lot of good stand up "judo," most instructors seem to want to go right to the takedown and ground game. For me, this is not desirable for self-defense. On the other hand, learning how to deal with it really requires doing it-being on the ground, on my back, and learning more about repelling takedowns. It just makes sense.....


Is it this:

No, I think she means-since she and Mystic Wolf claim Jim Fung lineage-simplicity, directness, economy of motion, minimum use of strength, andpracticality. Universal goals for most martial arts application, and, oddly enough, ones that are readily applied to numerous forms of jujutsu, including Brazilian jujitsu.

Though you're right as well-and, oddly enough, one can find the same principles in the technique of any successful practitioner of any martial art or martial arts system .

....still waiting for Si-Je to deal with the whole "cognitive dissonance" thing...

[jarrod]

jadecloudalchemist, i believe si-je studied goshin jujitsu.

jf

[elder999]

jadecloudalchemist, i believe si-je studied goshin jujitsu.

jf


....and that's a can of worms that I'll let someone else open up, so it doesn't seem like I'm picking on her.......

......though I have to ask: which one? :lfao:

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Goshin jujutsu meaning self defense jujutsu? I always thought it was correctly written Goshin jutsu not Goshin Jujutsu.

I mean Goshin jutsu is not a particular style its just self defense kinda of like saying Karate or back to Jujutsu again lol.



directness, economy of motion, minimum use of strength, andpracticality.

You mean like what the term Ju kinda of means in Judo and Jujutsu?

[The Last Legionary]

This is Randor Reporting for WMTV News.
Si-Je has been debunked again. The crowd is hushed as we await her reply. Will it be more anti-bjj jive, more wing chun is awesome rhetoric, or will we be called poopyheads? You can cut the tension with a knife here Howard. This crowd is tense. Earlier today I attempted to lead them through some Brushes Horses Mane, but they were in no mood for that, and threatened my with a rather rude suggetion about where to Strum Lute. Ah, here she comes now. I see she's changed her outfit again, this time it's a lovely silk blue. Such a shame the previos red one had so much mud on it when she left. I doubt she'll ever get the stains out. I'd share some laundry tips, but the last time i tried that she LapSao'd me in the kidney and I've been peeing blood ever since then. I see we're ready to begin again, so for now, thisis Randor signing off for WMTV News.
:-popcorn::drinkbeer:lfao:

[elder999]

What on earth is he doing here? Is your opponent just going to stand there while you flip your legs into the air and jump on the arm?!
How is this akin to WC/WT principle? Apples and Oranges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPSvOTM2lz0.

Well, flying juji gatame, is a high-risk maneuver, and certainly not for self-defense. However, it is used in competition. Neil Adams used it in 1981 to win his World Judo Championship. It's sometimes called a Disvenko, after the Russian judoka who used it in Paris in the 80's.It's been used at the Abu Dhabi submission grappling championships as well:

Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8_FevrLdaw) Rumina Sato doing it in competition.

Here's one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGWiR343E8g) that's a little less spectacular.

Here's a rolling armbar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih4LJ3e4Y2g&NR=1) from a Japanese judo competition.

[jarrod]

i could be mis-quoting her; but i think it was goshin jujitsu. my cpu is slow as hell or else i'd look it up.

jf

[elder999]

I hate this guard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx864b1eSYY
For the Wing Chunners, instead of locking your ankles out behind them. turn your knees inward like WC basic stance with abduction and use foreward force/pressure with the knees to keep their body weight off you while defending with the hands from your back. Warding off chokes, locks, punches ....

On the other hand, Si-Je, a lot of females find some value in learning to fight from this position, since that's exactly where some rapists might want to end up anyway-and they might just have to. Of course, if you're certain that your WC skills will keep your knees against an assailants body when he's knocking you upside the head and ripping off your clothes with one arm, and forcing your legs apart with the other, well, I wish you all the best at "warding off....etc."

[elder999]

i could be mis-quoting her; but i think it was goshin jujitsu. my cpu is slow as hell or else i'd look it up.

jf

Here it is:


1. I trained Goshin Ju-Jitsu for 3 years. I know the entries, and the stratagies behind Ju-Jitsu. Although we diddn't call it "grappling". And we didn't shoot face first into your knees and try to force a takedown. We threw you off a punch or grab. We worked to stay on your side, and such. Yes, I'm aware of this mentality. But, it's flawed in a practical sense. Your opponent is going to hit and kick you with their other hand while your trying to armbar them, and while your using all this energy to get around their body to the side. I'll tell you from personal experience. When the guy is six footish 250 lbs. thats a long walk on the mats to their side, especially when their fighting you. I still have to manuver past legs twice as long as mine, and well whatever. It takes too much time and energy. And while your trying to do all this your getting hit, kneed, kicked, head butted, whatever.

I'd have edited it to the bolded sentence, but I found the rest of it rather illuminating.

In any case, I still have to ask: Which "goshin jujitsu?" (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=goshin+jujitsu&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8) :lfao:

Here's (http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_Whatisjujutsu.htm) an explanation of the term "goshin jujutsu," from Toby Threadgill, sensei:



If a Japanese based martial system is formulated in modern times (post Tokugawa) but is only partially influenced by traditional Nihon jujutsu, it may be more correctly referred to as gendai goshin jujutsu ( modern self defense jujutsu). Gendai goshin jujutsu is usually formulated outside Japan and may include influences from other martial traditions. The popular Gracie/Brazilian jujutsu system, influenced by modern judo, and Danzan ryu, carrying further influences from Indonesian and Okinawan martial traditions are popular examples of gendai goshin jujutsu.

[Si-Je]

Pot? Kettle? :lfao:

I'm not even going to get into all your erroneous info on jujutsu, locks, "two-handedness," etc., etc., etc. I'm just going to point out that by your own admission, you've only had 3 years of JJJ training....I don't want to seem condescending or anything, but that's-as jarrod pointed out-really just enough to be competent in this day and age......

Enough for me to reach Sempi and teach it. Sorry if you had to study longer to get it. I've studied several different arts since then, that's when I was a teenager.



The Instructor's Course (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jbq7Z9ImOw&feature=related) also appears to contain a lot of "anti-grappling." :lfao: ......

Yeah, I see the anti-grappling when they escape from the BJJ armbars on the ground. But, to you it's all just BJJ to you, isn't it?

The Instructor's Course (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jbq7Z9ImOw&feature=related) also appears to contain a lot of "anti-grappling." :lfao:
I see tons of Judo throws. some BJJ in the nice soft sand and matts, awwwhhh.

THis one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxWpEaEugpg) looks pretty deadly, even with that soundtrack!

JJJ at one minute, 2:00 and 4:30. neato lots of
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olrHBrW1Iu0&feature=related

neat to see the guys demonstrating how effective BJJ is against a knife figher. How many times did they get stabbed? Lost count. Will show hubbie that one, he's going to ****!
See JJJ at 3:26 nice classic T-off. and 3:53


I can post lots, and lots, and lots more MCMAP groundfighting that has all the elements of what you've described here as "inefficient," or undesirable-including going into a BJJ guard, "two handed" joint locks, and use of body leverage/torque-of course, that's not all the videos show in some cases, because that's not all MCMAP is-but it is a part of what it is. Heck, I've even found video of two guys grappling from the knees, ala BJJ....

Keep 'em commin'. Doesn't both me. If they decide to add BJJ in MCMAP now, I'm not the one trying to use it in the field. Hubbie, on the other hand just might **** a brick.
But, you are one of the rudest people I've met on here yet. Keep it coming. Show those colors.

[Si-Je]

No, I think she means-since she and Mystic Wolf claim Jim Fung lineage-simplicity, directness, economy of motion, minimum use of strength, andpracticality. Universal goals for most martial arts application, and, oddly enough, ones that are readily applied to numerous forms of jujutsu, including Brazilian jujitsu....

Prove it. Show me, how those apply to BJJ.
In what BJJ technique uses any one of these principles. Which one's use WC concepts? And how?

....still waiting for Si-Je to deal with the whole "cognitive dissonance" thing...[/quote]

I missed the cognitive dissonance thing, where was that posted?

[Si-Je]

Here it is:



I'd have edited it to the bolded sentence, but I found the rest of it rather illuminating.

In any case, I still have to ask: Which "goshin jujitsu?" (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=goshin+jujitsu&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8) :lfao:

Here's (http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_Whatisjujutsu.htm) an explanation of the term "goshin jujutsu," from Toby Threadgill, sensei:

Neither of those. Google Sodai Brock under Goshin Ryu if you'd like. I haven't been able to find a website of his, still looking. Why are you so hung up on the ju-jitsu thing? Must be really important to you, ju-jitsu.
His style incorporated, guess what,? Wing Chun hands. lol! He took Aiki Ju-Jistu, mixed it with WC hands, and Goshin techniques. I took that back in 1995, and guess what? We didn't incorporate ANY BJJ. Whether they do that now I don't know, nor is it any of my concern. I don't train it anymore. I moved on to Wing Chun. I got a taste of it in Shodi Brock's system and finally found a good teacher about 5 years ago.
By the way, I'll answer questions directed at me about my training, thank you. I don't need someone that knows nothing about it speaking for me. Although you do seem to enjoy doing that. lol!

Just wondering, am I filling out an application? Are you hiring me for a job? Then, why you needing my resume? lol!

[elder999]

Enough for me to reach Sempi and teach it. Sorry if you had to study longer to get it. I've studied several different arts since then, that's when I was a teenager.

That's too funny. :lfao:




Keep 'em commin'. Doesn't both me. If they decide to add BJJ in MCMAP now, I'm not the one trying to use it in the field. Hubbie, on the other hand just might **** a brick.

Actually, a review of the document I posted a couple of pages ago, Marine Corps Order 1550.54A, The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program, pretty well demonstrates that BJJ was part of MCMAP from the beginning.



But, you are one of the rudest people I've met on here yet. Keep it coming. Show those colors.

So what?!! :321:

I mean, this is supposed to be a discussion board-and you've completely derailed the discussion of whether or not the two arts make a compatible mix with your viewpoint. Have you considered just how rude your insistence that you're correct, that your way of doing things is the right way, that your opinion is the only one that's valid are?

I think monopolizing the discussion is the very height of rudeness.

Never mind how many people simply think that you're wrong.

I may be rude: a review of my posts reveals me to be sarcastic, bombastic, condescending and sometimes quite the ass. You should see me at work......:lol:

At least I'm not thick, as well, Nikki. :rolleyes:

[Si-Je]

[/size]

On the other hand, Si-Je, a lot of females find some value in learning to fight from this position, since that's exactly where some rapists might want to end up anyway-and they might just have to. Of course, if you're certain that your WC skills will keep your knees against an assailants body when he's knocking you upside the head and ripping off your clothes with one arm, and forcing your legs apart with the other, well, I wish you all the best at "warding off....etc."


no joke, really?! So the best defense against a rapist that has your pants off and is between your legs with his pecker out and ready is to wrap your legs around his willing and ready waiste and lock your ankles behind his back and lay back and enjoy the ride?!
You've lost your ever living mind!
You keep that man OUT from between your legs, you keep their body weight OFF you. you don't help the penetrate you by going into BJJ "guard".
The whole world has just gone mad to think that BJJ is a style to defend against a rapist.

Here's a neat fact too. We trained a 15 year veteran of the Fort Worth police department and he used to love to give us alot of the police departments hand outs on crimial studies, and phycological profiles of violent offenders.
One study stated that rapists love to take self-defense classes, their favorite, BJJ classes. It's a fact, he showed us the paperwork back in fort worth.
They like the BJJ because it helps them to control the female better and because it's one of the most popular styles right now. And so they can learn to counter all the self-defense most women may use. Just FYI.
So, now. you going to learn what a rapist knows and put yourself more in the position of being raped and "submitted" by learning BJJ and fighting him in this fashion?
Whatever.
Why not take a style that even if a rapist studied it for a couple of months to a year you could still defeat him using the same style?

[Si-Je]

That's too funny. :lfao:




Actually, a review of the document I posted a couple of pages ago, Marine Corps Order 1550.54A, The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program, pretty well demonstrates that BJJ was part of MCMAP from the beginning.



So what?!! :321:

I mean, this is supposed to be a discussion board-and you've completely derailed the discussion of whether or not the two arts make a compatible mix with your viewpoint. Have you considered just how rude your insistence that you're correct, that your way of doing things is the right way, that your opinion is the only one that's valid are?

I think monopolizing the discussion is the very height of rudeness.

Never mind how many people simply think that you're wrong.

I may be rude: a review of my posts reveals me to be sarcastic, bombastic, condescending and sometimes quite the ass. You should see me at work......:lol:

At least I'm not thick, as well, Nikki. :rolleyes:

Like everywhere I post the same people follow just to plug their BJJ and grappling? And you want to post how WC just NEEDS BJJ? lol! cry me a river duder. :sadsong:

And you want to talk about how BJJ merges so easily with WC, then talk about it! Shut the **** up, and prove it! How?! This stupid thread has gone on and on with all this jacking off stupid comments about this and that that has nothing to do with the topic. I'm not the only one here getting waaaaaay off topic, self proclaimed ass.

And what am I wrong about? That MCMAP teaches BJJ too? :vu: I'm so heart broken! lol! I don't care. That's not what my trainer/sifu/husband trained while in MCMAP, and not what he incorporated in it. He was one of several guys working on the thing. Who cares? YOU care.

I've offered several posts of pure WC technique against BJJ, what has been returned? Crap. Just mental masterbation of how it would never work against the greatest stuff in the world, BJJ. No proof. No explaination of WHY the technique won't work. Just jacking off trash talking about nothing. No prof. Blah, blah.
Again, describe or leave a video of BJJ technique and I'll tell you how to counter it with WC. If you don't like it, discuss why it won't work or something else revelent.

You feel special you know my name? Come on down and meet Nikki if your feeling froggy. Meet my husband too, he'll be really happy to see you.

[Steve]

Here's a neat fact too. We trained a 15 year veteran of the Fort Worth police department and he used to love to give us alot of the police departments hand outs on crimial studies, and phycological profiles of violent offenders.
One study stated that rapists love to take self-defense classes, their favorite, BJJ classes. It's a fact, he showed us the paperwork back in fort worth.
They like the BJJ because it helps them to control the female better and because it's one of the most popular styles right now. And so they can learn to counter all the self-defense most women may use. Just FYI.
So, now. you going to learn what a rapist knows and put yourself more in the position of being raped and "submitted" by learning BJJ and fighting him in this fashion?
Whatever.
Why not take a style that even if a rapist studied it for a couple of months to a year you could still defeat him using the same style?Okay. This is where I officially lose my temper and leave the high road to join you in your filth. Disparage the art of BJJ. Fine. I don't care. Unlike you, I'm not emotionally invested in whether my art is better than yours. I have too many things to enjoy about life than to worry about petty crap like that.

But when you insinuate that I and my training partners in some way promote an atmosphere that is tolerant of rapists, I have to say you've crossed a line. You are so insecure and desperate to prove your point you are willing to literally say anything. I pity you. You are pathetic.

Half of my school are police officers, emergency medical workers and firefighters. We have doctors, lawyers, and some of the finest people I have ever had the honor of knowing.

I pity you. I do. I hope you wake up someday and get over yourself.

For what it's worth, though I've tolerated your posts for several weeks now, I have to say I think you're making it all up. I don't think there is a wrestler whose coach told him to avoid drinking water. I don't think you've ever met a bjj purple belt, much less trained with one (or several). I don't believe that you have ever trained with a police officer who showed you these studies. I believe you to be a liar and completely without integrity.

I pity you and the women whom you have brainwashed, and hope someday you figure out what the hell it is that you want. In the meantime, I have no use for you. As far as I'm concerned, you add nothing of value to this site.

[Si-Je]

I reply to SteveBJJ's comment on my profile. (since he's on my ignore list and I don't read any of his posts I guess that's the only way he could get his two cents in.)
I never suggested that BJJ condones rape or rapists.
Just stated the statics that rapists train the styles that are the most popular, and that seems to be BJJ at the top of the list right now.
The very design of the fighting style would benefit such an offender very well to those ends. Grappling.
If WC was as popular and widespread such offenders would probably study WC. Maybe they do.

Does BJJ teachers do criminal background checks on their students on sign up? How would anyone know what type of offender a student is? It's a fact and a statstic based on the reasearch of criminology. They interviewed caught and known sex offenders in prison and found out alot of information on these people.
Does that mean even with a criminal background check on students you'll know who is the rapist? No. They may not have gotten arrested or have a report yet.

Take it for what it's worth. Look into it for what's not there if you wish.

[Steve]

I reply to SteveBJJ's comment on my profile. (since he's on my ignore list and I don't read any of his posts I guess that's the only way he could get his two cents in.)
I never suggested that BJJ condones rape or rapists.
Just stated the statics that rapists train the styles that are the most popular, and that seems to be BJJ at the top of the list right now.
The very design of the fighting style would benefit such an offender very well to those ends. Grappling.
If WC was as popular and widespread such offenders would probably study WC. Maybe they do.

Does BJJ teachers do criminal background checks on their students on sign up? How would anyone know what type of offender a student is? It's a fact and a statstic based on the reasearch of criminology. They interviewed caught and known sex offenders in prison and found out alot of information on these people.
Does that mean even with a criminal background check on students you'll know who is the rapist? No. They may not have gotten arrested or have a report yet.

Take it for what it's worth. Look into it for what's not there if you wish.Once again, you can prevaricate all you wish. I think you were very clear in your previous posts. I added negative rep (first for everything) to a post that I feel well deserved it. I signed it, because that's the polite thing to do. My opinion is that you are despicable.

[The Last Legionary]

Randor reporting again for WMTV News
I'm coming to you live from under what is left of a conference room table, as the post consumption digested fecal material has hit the large tri bladed air moving device! Blood has now been spilled, and shoes and the feet within them inserted. It is absolute pandimonium here Howard, I even think I saw a midget trying an Insagari Arm Bar on a rare white panda. Awww. Kawai! But I digress.

In this latest exchange of hostilities, SiJe has crossed the line, comparing BJJ practitioners to sex offenders. While the positioning is sometimes similar to what I watch late at night, I've yet to see a BJJ match where they aren't wearing pants. I would hazard a guess that she would be just as irate hould someone point out the similarities of wing chun forms to stoned hippies dancing at Woodstock, but again, I regress.

It's been a long hard fight for this Wing Chun fanatic. She's lost alot of ground, brought tons of public scorn and ridicule on her, yet she keeps on fighting, often flailing blindly at her opponents in what could be called a Blind Mans Lap Sao, what with the previously mentioned high velocity fecal spatter impacting her vision. It's been a brutal fight Howard, yet one must admire the courage, stubornness, the never say quit and yet, the closed minded blind faith that she's projectng.

I'm trying to work my way across the room to get an interview in with Elder who is smoking what appears to be a large and possibly contraband Cuban, however the carnage is just horrible. I haven't seen a food fight like this since my last Kenpo camp when they had some GM's in for crab legs. Stuff is everywhere.

Oh. One moment please. Yes, I've recieved word that we may be seeing the Mystical one himself pop in soon. His rare appearances usually come from a need to give his wife some time to remove her feet from her mouth, a techique I don't often see in Wing Chun outside her style. I'm going to try and find a safe location for myself and my camera crew as the carniage here continues to brew up here on the WingChun battlefield.

This is Randor, for WMTV News signing off and ducking for cover!

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Sodai Brock What's a Sodai?


Or sodai gomi is a traditional Japanese term used to describe the imminent removal of such items as old (but still-functioning)

Like that?

[The Last Legionary]

What's a Sodai?

:drinkbeer:burp::cheers::drink2tha

These?

[elder999]

What's a Sodai?


I think she meant shodai, but I'll leave it alone. Won't even ask if that's Jim or George Brock. She can answer questions about her training herself.......

.....gomi was awesome! Got a perfectly good bicycle and a stereo out of someone's garbage in Osaka, back in '80....:lol:

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486 (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=427486). Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you

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[Flying Crane]

good god, I can't believe this thread has gone on this long.

c'mon folks, let this one die, it's just getting embarrassing all the way around.

what the hell do any of you really care what your oponents in this argument think? Nobody's gonna change anybody's mind at this point, why does it matter? think what you want, don't worry about the others.

Somebody's got to be big enough to walk away without getting in the last shot. Maybe everyone will quit posting then, or maybe the thread just ought to be locked.

walk away, walk away.

[Bob Hubbard]

Problem is, while theres a lot of good information, good concerns, etc here, there's also been alot of shots, slings, slights, and flat out insults tossed around.

I think if people want to discuss the good parts, new threads should be started. This one's IMO poisoned with ill will and anger.

Locking pending staff review.