Wing Chun is an Internal System

[Yoshiyahu]

Some say Wing Chun is not an Internal system. They will say its External Art?

Well what exactly makes up and Internal Martial Art?

Wikipedia says Internal Arts focus on awareness of the Spirit, mind and Chi. The use relaxed leverage rather than muscular tension and brute force. Wikipedia also says that Push hands is training method used in Internal arts to develop sensititvity and softness. Also Old School Internal styles actually deal with basics such as stance work,strecthing, Strengthing muscles as well as empty hand forms and weapon forms. Some forms are done very slowly although some include FaJin or Explosive Force.

Wikipedia Qoute:
The reason for the generally slow pace is to improve coordination and balance by increasing the work load, and to require the student to pay minute attention to their whole body and its weight as they perform a technique.


Well many of us know that Sil Lim Tao is to be done slowly...Infact Yip Man was said to take an hour doing Sil Lim Tao.

Wikipedia Qoute:

At an advanced level, and in actual fighting, internal styles are performed quickly, but the goal is to learn to involve the entire body in every motion, to stay relaxed, with deep, controlled breathing, and to coordinate the motions of the body and the breathing accurately according to the dictates of the forms while maintaining perfect balance.


Sun Lutang Classification of Neijia:



Sun Lutang identified the following as the criteria that distinguish an internal martial art:

An emphasis on the use of the mind to coordinate the leverage of the relaxed body as opposed to the use of brute strength.
The internal development, circulation, and expression of qì (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q%C3%AC).
The application of Taoist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoist) dǎoyǐn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C7%8Eoy%C7%90n), qìgōng (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q%C3%ACg%C5%8Dng), and nèigōng (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neigong) (內功) principles of external movement.


My Personal list of what makes Wing Chun and Internal Style
1.Sil Lim Tao is done slowly
2.Utilization of the breath
3.Use softness to overcome hardness
4.Redirect and neutralize an attackers force
5.Use least amount of force
6.Body Structure utilization instead of brute force
7.Relaxation
8.Deflection instead of blocking
9.Redirection instead of struggling
10.Power is comes through your root from the ground

Wikipedia Qoute about Forms:


Forms are meditative, solitary exercises which develop self-awareness, balance, relaxation and sensitivity. Forms also train the practitioner in the fundamental movement and the correct force generation of Wing Chun.


Secondly Wikipedia discusses need for sensitivity:


San Sik (translated as Separate Forms) are compact in structure. They can be loosely grouped into three broad categories: 1) focus on building body structure through basic punching, standing, turning, and stepping drills; 2) fundamental arm cycles and changes, firmly ingraining the cardinal tools for interception and adaptation; and 3) sensitivity training and combination techniques.


Here is a qoute about Chi Sau and Push Hands


There are many similarities between these two activities. They are both initiated from contact with the opponent. They are both started with a "cooperative" and predictable pattern of cyclical movement. They are both concerned with disrupting the opponent's balance by attacking his or her center of gravity. They are both learned in stages, moving from predetermined, cooperative patterns of movement at first, to freestyle competitive play at the advanced stages. Both exercises emphasis the use of "sensitivity" and technique over brute force. These training methods are quite similar in many respects.


Some people do not realize or don't care about Chi Cultivation and the use of Chi in Wing Chun. But traditional schools of Wing Chun still teach this theory. The Sil Lim Tau which Yip Man practice for an hour each day is where you cultivate internal power. Although Wing Chun system has Chi cultivation through out it SLT is most noted as a form specially design for Chi Kung. When practicing SLT You use the breath,focus body alignment and meditation of the dan tien to build and store Chi. With out Chi there is no fajin or short power. You don't strike with your muscles...but you strike with the YI or intent. With the breath focus your intent through your limbs. Then when you strike with intent your energy will discharge from your limbs.

ctwingchun said:
Chi Gung is practiced at all times in all forms. However, it is focused and found most distinctly in the first form. Combined with Hei Gung (Breath Work) Chi Gung is a mind intent and means of transporting energy and life force to every inch of the body. Chi Gung training is used to cultivate health and build internal energy. A regular regimen of Chi Gung training encourages health, blood flow and proper electric conductivity through the body’s meridian channels.


References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_(martial_arts)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_(martial_arts)#Soft_techniques

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_chun#Principles

http://www.patiencetaichi.com/public/104.cfm

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/wcpowerarticle.html

http://www.afn.org/~afn59160/faqs.html

http://www.ctwingchun.com/about-wingchun-kuen-kungfu.htm

[arnisador]

Every CMA seems to think it's either wholly internal or both external and internal, but I'd say that WC is primarily external. It's a punching art, with relatively little hip motion as seen in the internal arts.

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun uses the hip and waist when they attack...infact my sifu stresses the jing comes from the hip...


Every CMA seems to think it's either wholly internal or both external and internal, but I'd say that WC is primarily external. It's a punching art, with relatively little hip motion as seen in the internal arts.

[mook jong man]

I was always told that Wing Chun is a half external and half internal art in our lineage in the early years of our training we just learn to to do the self defence techniques and not really think too much about them .

But later on we are taught to use Nim Lik ( Thought Force or Determination Force ) to generate power in our techniques which does not rely on muscular strength .

Our Sigung who is in his seventies and is a very skinny gentleman throws people around that are twice the size of him and these are not so called compliant students these are big dudes off the street who want to know what this Wing Chun crap is all about and are doing their utmost to resist him .

The story always ends the same they walk away shaking their heads wondering why they couldn't push a skinny old chinese man over or stop him from even just moving his arm , you've heard of the one inch punch well he does a no inch punch .

The reason he can do these things is because he is not using muscular strength he is using internal energy , which if you ask him how you develop this power , the answer he gives is always the same Sil Lim Tao , Sil Lim Tao and more Sil Lim Tao .

[mook jong man]

Every CMA seems to think it's either wholly internal or both external and internal, but I'd say that WC is primarily external. It's a punching art, with relatively little hip motion as seen in the internal arts.

When we pivot we are using a lot of hip motion and when we strike or kick we also use a subtle projection of the hip to maximise power and put body weight into the strike and sometimes we drop the hips slightly to maximise force in a elbow strike or stamp kick .

[Jade Tigress]

Internal arts focus on the mind and internal energy. They train flowing, circular movements, but teach that those movements can also be used for for self defense/combat. The focus is using the internal energy behind the movements while still understanding the application for each.

External arts focus on the body/technique for self defense, rather than the mind/internal energy. It's more than just "using your waist" in a technique. External training should include internal aspects but that doesn't make them an internal art.

Internal/External arts are more than the body movements and both should include aspects of the other for a complete art. But there is also a focus which distinguishes the Internal from External arts and Wing Chun is not an Internal art.

[seasoned]

Internal arts focus on the mind and internal energy. They train flowing, circular movements, but teach that those movements can also be used for for self defense/combat. The focus is using the internal energy behind the movements while still understanding the application for each.

External arts focus on the body/technique for self defense, rather than the mind/internal energy. It's more than just "using your waist" in a technique. External training should include internal aspects but that doesn't make them an internal art.

Internal/External arts are more than the body movements and both should include aspects of the other for a complete art. But there is also a focus which distinguishes the Internal from External arts and Wing Chun is not an Internal art.
I know in Okinawan GoJu we try to combine both the hard and the soft. I would call GoJu an external art that starts out very hard as in Sanchin but gradually introduces the softer aspects, by introducing Tensho just before black belt.

[Jade Tigress]

I know in Okinawan GoJu we try to combine both the hard and the soft. I would call GoJu an external art that starts out very hard as in Sanchin but gradually introduces the softer aspects, by introducing Tensho just before black belt.


Exactly. Both styles need the eventual balance of Yin and Yang. Both styles still have a primary focus. :asian:

[Yoshiyahu]

Wounderful answer...just marvelous....

So true we train both aspects Internal and External...But doesn't all Chinese Martial Arts train both sides too?



I was always told that Wing Chun is a half external and half internal art in our lineage in the early years of our training we just learn to to do the self defence techniques and not really think too much about them .

But later on we are taught to use Nim Lik ( Thought Force or Determination Force ) to generate power in our techniques which does not rely on muscular strength .

Our Sigung who is in his seventies and is a very skinny gentleman throws people around that are twice the size of him and these are not so called compliant students these are big dudes off the street who want to know what this Wing Chun crap is all about and are doing their utmost to resist him .

The story always ends the same they walk away shaking their heads wondering why they couldn't push a skinny old chinese man over or stop him from even just moving his arm , you've heard of the one inch punch well he does a no inch punch .

The reason he can do these things is because he is not using muscular strength he is using internal energy , which if you ask him how you develop this power , the answer he gives is always the same Sil Lim Tao , Sil Lim Tao and more Sil Lim Tao .

[Yoshiyahu]

My wing Chu Sifu trains flowing energy also wing chun uses smaller circular movements and I was intructed to focus on internal energy and focus the energy through my limbs...this is where real power comes from...from focusing...



Internal arts focus on the mind and internal energy. They train flowing, circular movements, but teach that those movements can also be used for for self defense/combat. The focus is using the internal energy behind the movements while still understanding the application for each.

External arts focus on the body/technique for self defense, rather than the mind/internal energy. It's more than just "using your waist" in a technique. External training should include internal aspects but that doesn't make them an internal art.

Internal/External arts are more than the body movements and both should include aspects of the other for a complete art. But there is also a focus which distinguishes the Internal from External arts and Wing Chun is not an Internal art.

[Jade Tigress]

That's how all systems should be taught, IMO. With a balance of external and internal power. But, Wing Chun is not an "Internal Art". Tai Chi and Ba Gua would be examples of internal arts. Wing Chun, Karate, SPM, TKD, etc, would be examples of external arts.

To say external arts have aspects of internal power trained, some to a higher degree than others (ie: CMA's), is true. But it doesn't make them internal arts. I wouldn't classify Wing Chun as an internal art.

Does that make sense?

[Yoshiyahu]

wHAT MAKES BAGUA AN INTERNAL ART?

WHAT MAKES XING YI QUAN AND INTERNAL ART?



That's how all systems should be taught, IMO. With a balance of external and internal power. But, Wing Chun is not an "Internal Art". Tai Chi and Ba Gua would be examples of internal arts. Wing Chun, Karate, SPM, TKD, etc, would be examples of external arts.

To say external arts have aspects of internal power trained, some to a higher degree than others (ie: CMA's), is true. But it doesn't make them internal arts. I wouldn't classify Wing Chun as an internal art.

Does that make sense?

[Jade Tigress]

wHAT MAKES BAGUA AN INTERNAL ART?

WHAT MAKES XING YI QUAN AND INTERNAL ART?

Look at the way they're trained. It should be obvious. Again, internal arts should not neglect the external, and vice versa. The CMA's I'm familiar with have components of both, but they're still either considered primarily external or internal.

Why do you think the Wing Chun system should be classified as an internal art?

[Yoshiyahu]

Well the reason why I feel Wing Chun is a internal art is because


1.Because you use softness to redirect strong force
2.You focus your intent and chi.
3.SLT deals with Chi Cultivation
4.Standing in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma (20 minutes meditation)
5.Redirection and Deflection instead of brute force
6.Relaxation over tense muscle strength
7.Chi Sau(Sensitivy Drills)

What makes an Art internal to you? How is the training different with Internal. How do Internal styles train...and How do external style train differently?



Look at the way they're trained. It should be obvious. Again, internal arts should not neglect the external, and vice versa. The CMA's I'm familiar with have components of both, but they're still either considered primarily external or internal.

Why do you think the Wing Chun system should be classified as an internal art?

[JadecloudAlchemist]

wHAT MAKES BAGUA AN INTERNAL ART?

WHAT MAKES XING YI QUAN AND INTERNAL ART?

Circle walking which some claim comes from the Lung men sect of Taoism.

The amount of twisting and spiraling done makes it internal.

Santi makes Hsing yi internal for the most part.

The whole internal external is really how the art presents itself at first.

Internal arts focus on cultivation and theory and all that while external seems to focus on learning how to apply applications first then learn internal parts after you already know applications.

Basically same process in reverse.
Wing chun is usually seen as external because of the stress on application over the training done in the internal arts.

In my experience practing the internal arts you can spend months just working on posture,rooting. Just spending 6 months or so learning basic circle walking for 2hours a day before even starting to learn applications.

Starting Chen Taichi chuan I only learned Silk reeling before forms then after forms maybe application. So there is a lot of time spent before you learn application which in an external art you do not spend that much.

Wing chun has internal parts yes but so does Shotokan karate,Jujutsu and so on in there higher levels but they would be considered external because they stress external as there base.

[Xue Sheng]

First let me answer this

"Wing Chun is an Internal System "

No it isn't

But as I have said before if you wish to call it internal or campaign for it to be called internal then so be it. But I would greatly appreciate it if you would stop trying to convince me and everyone else it is by copious posting on the topic that all ends up basically the same. You say it is neijia people say it isn't.

wHAT MAKES BAGUA AN INTERNAL ART?

WHAT MAKES XING YI QUAN AND INTERNAL ART?

Mow to this somewhat hostile post that can very easily be taken as yelling.


For GOD sakes man quit asking the same questions over and over again and expecting to be spoon fed the answer by those of us who have trained "real" live Neijia styles for years.

Here is some place to begin your study in understanding what is and what is not a neijia why it is and is not a neijia and why bagua and Xingyiquan are neijia styles and Wing Chun isn't (Note I have read book on Wing Chun as well by Ip Chun and my Wing Chun sifu was a student of Ip Ching and never ONCE called Wing Chun internal)

Xingyiquan

Di Guoyong on Xingyiquan Vol.1: Five Element Foundation

Xing Yi Nei Gong that was compiled by Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell

Li Tianji's The Skill of Xingyiquan - translated by Andrea Falk

The Xingyi Boxing Manual: Hebei Style's Five Principles and Seven Words (Paperback)
by Jing Yunting

Baguazhang

Liang Zhen Pu Eight Diagram Palm (Paperback)
by Li Zi Ming

Bagua You Shen Zhang (Paperback)
by Wang Shu jin

The Whirling Circles of Ba Gua Zhang: The Art and Legends of the Eight Trigram Palm (Paperback)
by Frank Allen

Taijiquan

The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan (Paperback)
by Yang Chengfu

Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan (Paperback)
by Fu Zhongwen

Taijiquan Laojia - Chen Zhenglei

Qigong

The Root of Chinese Qigong: Secrets for Health, Longevity, and Enlightenment - Yang Jwing Ming

Post related to the topic (there is also another Wing Chun is internal no its not post out there, look and ye shall find)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67900

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67531

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61600

Downloads from Andrea Falk

http://www.thewushucentre.net/service_pages/downloads/

Now with all that I will add this, as I have added multiple times before in post in response to you and this is the last time.

Neijia/Waijia MEANS ABSOLUTLY NOTHING!!!!

They are labels like sports car and sedan that came into existence as more of a protest against the Qing Dynasty in China and the label appeared for teh VERY FIRST TIME in the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan in 1669 almost 340 years ago. And here is a new addition not one single CMA that is now called internal was even MENTIONED in the Epitaph. And not one single art that could be called External was mentioned either. And you can find the epitaph with a web search I will not provide any more info.

ALL CMA styles train internal and external and ALL are not considered internal. Read the books I put in this post and PLEASE... I BEG YOU..STOP trying to convince everyone that Wing Chun is internal. By ALL the definitions that we have been stuck with since 1669 it is not.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well maybe my Sifu was different...because the first six months...I was learning Ma Form and Sil Lim Tao. I was also walking the circle. I was practicing sitting in stances for long periods of time...thats worse then getting hit...But after awhile your legs give...We had to strecth. We did breathing meditation while sitting half lotus. We got much theory...I didn't really have any applications until after about year....the stress was to make your foundation strong. Because with out strong Chi your wing chun will be useless. We had to hold YGKYM stance, We also had to hold Mabu stance,Arrow stance and cat stance and also swallow stance. We had to learn low stances on the ground...The Wing Chun down punch I hate with a passion. Try standing in that posistion holding your ginger fist out. Painful...We did punching exercises until our arms fell of..we had phyiscal conditioning too that was similiar to eagle claw phyiscal conditioning...but we also learn about internal in the beginning. So I say my wing chun is an eternal art...because my Sifu stress in the beginning foundation and basics. I also learn the steps in the beginning so you would stepping all day..walking in the circle standing in stances etc etc

The Basics

Chi
Root
Breath
Relaxation

These were the main things I had to learn. Also holding those stances taught me how to relax and remain calm...throwing thousands of punches taught me how to relax while under pressure...As for self defense...After six months there was Chi Sau. Which was sensitivity...you learn to feel your opponent intent an turn his energy off before he can strike you. Now application well you stand in a corner and block with one hand while your Sidai throw various strikes at your body or face. You stand in the middle of floor blind folded an try to block oncoming strikes.

Then after that you go back to the basics.

Then strecth again...

My Sifu always stress finding ones center of gravity...

Wing Chun has smaller circles. It doesn't spiral and turn constantly like a snake...But it does use the hips to generate Jing. It uses the waist to generate power...an it uses the breath to generate chi along with the YI.

My Sifu used to stress practice punching really really slow...and focus on the punch follow it and imagine your energy shooting out of it.





Circle walking which some claim comes from the Lung men sect of Taoism.

The amount of twisting and spiraling done makes it internal.

Santi makes Hsing yi internal for the most part.

The whole internal external is really how the art presents itself at first.

Internal arts focus on cultivation and theory and all that while external seems to focus on learning how to apply applications first then learn internal parts after you already know applications.

Basically same process in reverse.
Wing chun is usually seen as external because of the stress on application over the training done in the internal arts.

In my experience practing the internal arts you can spend months just working on posture,rooting. Just spending 6 months or so learning basic circle walking for 2hours a day before even starting to learn applications.

Starting Chen Taichi chuan I only learned Silk reeling before forms then after forms maybe application. So there is a lot of time spent before you learn application which in an external art you do not spend that much.

Wing chun has internal parts yes but so does Shotokan karate,Jujutsu and so on in there higher levels but they would be considered external because they stress external as there base.

[arnisador]

When we pivot we are using a lot of hip motion

Not like in Ba Gua (Pa Kua) or Hsing-I, though.

[mook jong man]

Not like in Ba Gua (Pa Kua) or Hsing-I, though.

I have sparred a Ba Gua man before and he spun around a lot is that the type of hip motion you are talking about ? If so , no we don't do that , In Wing Chun that would be considered an overly committed movement and deemed to be very risky .

[geezer]

First let me answer this

"Wing Chun is an Internal System "

No it isn't

But as I have said before if you wish to call it internal or campaign for it to be called internal then so be it. But I would greatly appreciate it if you would stop trying to convince me and everyone else it is by copious posting on the topic that all ends up basically the same. You say it is neijia people say it isn't.

"Yoshi" I know that you come from a different lineage, so I can't comment on your training. But the WC/WT I have studied (on and off) for the last thirty years has been described as descended from the tradition of soft, or "yielding", Southern Chinese short-bridge, narrow-stance fighting arts.

Perhaps the confusion comes from the term "soft" to describe the yielding nature of what I consider to be good WC/WT. But "soft " is not the same as "internal".

WC/WT is supposed to be a practical, no nonsense art that can be quickly learned and applied (although it takes a lifetime to master). Furthermore, it's techniques and theories can be explained in terms of basic physics. It's emphasis on yielding and sensitivity, is just an extension of these theories. I find nothing in any of these theories that requires a belief in chi, or fits with the classic descriptions of and "internal" art.

Now, as others have said, elements of "internal" training may be present in basically "external arts", but that doesn't make the style one of the classical internal arts. Of course you are welcome to insist, but in doing so, you stand alone.

Personally, If you want an informed opinion on the subject, I'd listen to Xue.

[Yoshiyahu]

I respect you beliefs...But my sifu often stress the importance of Chi...now there may WC lineages who have no need to teach the truth about Chi...They come off as mere external arts like Karate...but WC is not a hard style...I can show you videos of the Chi Side of WC. But that I feel is pointless...I shared with Xue many of the sayings of many of the lineages fore fathers...No one seems to believe...


Well let me give you link....look through the kuit kuen. You will see many sayings concerning the Chi....

Scroll down the different lineages an read what it says about Chi and using internal power over phyiscal strength.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.KuenKuit#General


Seven Sayings about Chi

*Chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back

*Siu Lim Tau mainly trains internal power

*Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

*Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.

*To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.

*Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.

*Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.


Some Internal Principals for fighting

Ying Siu Bo Fa, Ying Fu Sung Yung - (Structure neutralizes, footwork dissolves, the opponents can be handled with less effort spent).

Yuk Jui But Yuk San - (Use your body mass by converging rather than spreading out body resources inefficiently).

Power is generated from the joints. Strength originates from the heels.

In uniting the waist with the stance, power can be generated.

Storing energy resembles pulling a bow. Releasing power is like shooting an arrow.

Circular and straight accompany each other. Bent and straight complement one another.

Hand techniques must follow the Yin Yang principle. Strength must be applied with inner power. There is a counteraction to every attack.

If the opponent grasps your arm bridge, do not oppose him with brute force. Go with the opponent’s force and change into rolling hands. Turn around the situation to control him.

So we see very internal aspects to actual combat...interesting.

But when WC fights it uses Internal Principals for fighting. When it trains it uses both External and Internal...Although my training was mainly internal even the external was to build the internal. Punching the Wall bag is not like dropping down force on sand bag to develop Iron Sand Palm. Nor is carring Jars filled with sand or water unlike the Bagua man carrying bricks on his shoulders and arms to develop strength through breathing and relaxing...

You may disagree...but the more I study and learn Tai Chi Yang Style...The more I see similiarites...Even many of the hand motions of the Yang Style are just Wing Chun. The Difference is the flow is seen more in most Yang Styles...Your forms have more range of motion than Wing Chun...Reason being Wing Chun doesn't seek to move that much because all its fighting is done with in very close quarters...this is Kung of Wing Chun. Fighti up close and personal. Wing Chun usually stays in Chi Sau distance and never goes farther than pushhands distance.

In fact many of aspects and applications you have in Push hands Wing Chun also uses...Wing Chun attacks their opponents structure. The uproot or off balance as well. But your aim may be not to strike but to simply throw or up root or take down...Wing Chun does that too...But original Tai Chi is striking art as well!


"Yoshi" I know that you come from a different lineage, so I can't comment on your training. But the WC/WT I have studied (on and off) for the last thirty years has been described as descended from the tradition of soft, or "yielding", Southern Chinese short-bridge, narrow-stance fighting arts.

Perhaps the confusion comes from the term "soft" to describe the yielding nature of what I consider to be good WC/WT. But "soft " is not the same as "internal".

WC/WT is supposed to be a practical, no nonsense art that can be quickly learned and applied (although it takes a lifetime to master). Furthermore, it's techniques and theories can be explained in terms of basic physics. It's emphasis on yielding and sensitivity, is just an extension of these theories. I find nothing in any of these theories that requires a belief in chi, or fits with the classic descriptions of and "internal" art.

Now, as others have said, elements of "internal" training may be present in basically "external arts", but that doesn't make the style one of the classical internal arts. Of course you are welcome to insist, but in doing so, you stand alone.

Personally, If you want an informed opinion on the subject, I'd listen to Xue.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Maybe your teacher is different and like you believes it to be internal.

A common theme in the internal arts is its deep connection with Taoism.

Bagua-I ching

Hsing yi-Five element

Tai chi chuan-Yin and Yang

I don't know what you mean by walking circle.

You will find similarites in just about every style.

[Xue Sheng]

I respect you beliefs...But my sifu often stress the importance of Chi...now there may WC lineages who have no need to teach the truth about Chi...They come off as mere external arts like Karate...but WC is not a hard style...I can show you videos of the Chi Side of WC. But that I feel is pointless...I shared with Xue many of the sayings of many of the lineages fore fathers...No one seems to believe...


Well let me give you link....look through the kuit kuen. You will see many sayings concerning the Chi....

Scroll down the different lineages an read what it says about Chi and using internal power over phyiscal strength.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.KuenKuit#General


Seven Sayings about Chi

*Chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back

*Siu Lim Tau mainly trains internal power

*Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

*Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.

*To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.

*Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.

*Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.


Some Internal Principals for fighting

Ying Siu Bo Fa, Ying Fu Sung Yung - (Structure neutralizes, footwork dissolves, the opponents can be handled with less effort spent).

Yuk Jui But Yuk San - (Use your body mass by converging rather than spreading out body resources inefficiently).

Power is generated from the joints. Strength originates from the heels.

In uniting the waist with the stance, power can be generated.

Storing energy resembles pulling a bow. Releasing power is like shooting an arrow.

Circular and straight accompany each other. Bent and straight complement one another.

Hand techniques must follow the Yin Yang principle. Strength must be applied with inner power. There is a counteraction to every attack.

If the opponent grasps your arm bridge, do not oppose him with brute force. Go with the opponent’s force and change into rolling hands. Turn around the situation to control him.

So we see very internal aspects to actual combat...interesting.

But when WC fights it uses Internal Principals for fighting. When it trains it uses both External and Internal...Although my training was mainly internal even the external was to build the internal. Punching the Wall bag is not like dropping down force on sand bag to develop Iron Sand Palm. Nor is carring Jars filled with sand or water unlike the Bagua man carrying bricks on his shoulders and arms to develop strength through breathing and relaxing...

You may disagree...but the more I study and learn Tai Chi Yang Style...The more I see similiarites...Even many of the hand motions of the Yang Style are just Wing Chun. The Difference is the flow is seen more in most Yang Styles...Your forms have more range of motion than Wing Chun...Reason being Wing Chun doesn't seek to move that much because all its fighting is done with in very close quarters...this is Kung of Wing Chun. Fighti up close and personal. Wing Chun usually stays in Chi Sau distance and never goes farther than pushhands distance.

In fact many of aspects and applications you have in Push hands Wing Chun also uses...Wing Chun attacks their opponents structure. The uproot or off balance as well. But your aim may be not to strike but to simply throw or up root or take down...Wing Chun does that too...But original Tai Chi is striking art as well!

Interesting thing here is that there is nothing in this that says "Wing Chun is Neijia". There is a lot here that says Wing Chun is a Traditional Chinese Martial Art.

I to trained Wing Chun and I train Sanda and I see a lot of similarities to Xingyiquan and Taijiquan in some aspects of Sanda training and it is most certainly not a neijia style it does have its roots in CMA however.

And your whole push hands justification is meaningless since just about every single CMA style has push hands and just about every single CMA style uses that to attack the opponent’s structure to uproot and/or off balance... even Sanda which is not Neijia and as a matter of fact not even considered Traditional CMA.

I now have more questions to ask.

How long have you trained Wing Chun?

What branch of Wing Chun are we talking about here, who was your teacher’s teacher?

How long have you trained Taiji?

What is your taiji teachers background; what other styles does he/she train, what did they train first and who was their taiji teacher and what style is it and what forms of that style are we talking about?

And again what is it you find lacking in Wing Chun that fills you with such a need to associate it with Neijia?

[geezer]

...but WC is not a hard style...I can show you videos of the Chi Side of WC.
No need to show the videos, "Yoshi", I've witnessed some pretty amazing "chi" displays by my former sifu. Ever hear of the cinnabar palm? Still, I'd love to view some good video-clips anyway!


....look through the kuit kuen. You will see many sayings concerning the Chi...

It seems to me that most of the "kuit" refer more to concepts of structure and physics that can be understood and applied without referencing "chi"... although that may be another way to conceptualize it.

Scroll down the different lineages an read what it says about Chi and using internal power over phyiscal strength.

I repeat what I said before. Being soft, yielding, and borrowing your opponent's force, rather than using your own brute force, is indeed central to Wing Chun/Tsun. But "soft" is not the same as "internal". A system may be "external" in its foundation, and yet soft and yielding in its application!


You may disagree...but the more I study and learn Tai Chi Yang Style...The more I see similiarites...Even many of the hand motions of the Yang Style are just Wing Chun...

Actually, "Yoshi", I do agree with you completely on this point! I find that Wing Chun/Tsun at it's highest and most sophisticated level does exhibit those taiji-like traits. I've found this to be true of many martial arts. At that ethereal level that is true mastery, the internal manifests even in so called "external arts". But then this has also been said before. At any rate, I accept your perspective, though distinct from my own. Now, I'd still love to see those video-clips you promised! Thanks, in advance --Steve

[naneek]

geezer i am intrigued what is cinnabar palm? i never heard of it before, thanks in advance for your reply

[Yoshiyahu]

Your Questions answered

I now have more questions to ask.

How long have you trained Wing Chun? From 16-32 So about 16 years

What branch of Wing Chun are we talking about here, who was your teacher’s teacher? Lineage is Yuen Kay San. Teachers Teacher was Robert Lee Macfield and Mau Chang.

How long have you trained Taiji? Now consistently about six months. But I Have studied Tai Chi for some years. I just didn't actively practice it. I been focusing more on my Wing Chun for last ten years. I did a little Tai Chi when I was like in my early twenties. But I started to focus more on the WC. So I left for awhile.

What is your taiji teachers background; Well The Sifu is Chinese. He is strickly Yang Style Specialist. But He Taught my Wing Chun Sifu The Tai Chi. Along with my Wing Chun Sifu's Sihing. My Wing Chun Sifu has been doing Tai Chi consistently since the 90's. Now he is ranked so to speak so the Mr.Sam(Chinese Sifu) Has him to go over the forms an teach the younger students. Mr.Sam speaks a little english. So my Sifu had to study Cantonese so he could converse better with him. But over time Mr.Sam english has gotten alot better. He very old so he has my WC sifu teach the class.



what other styles does he/she train, My Sifu practices Bagua, Tai Chi, Xing Yi Quan, Wing Chun, He also practices Five Animals Five Elements. Those are the styles I remember.



what did they train first and who was their taiji teacher and what style is it and what forms of that style are we talking about? My Sifu very first style when he was a kid was probably Tae Kwon Do from what I remember. As for Mr.Sam he is Yang Stylist strickly.

And again what is it you find lacking in Wing Chun that fills you with such a need to associate it with Neijia? Well I don't think its lacking. Its just its principals don't follow what I feel a external art should be...Its not hard enough. An the concern over Chi. An my studies which show WC as soft or internal style?






Interesting thing here is that there is nothing in this that says "Wing Chun is Neijia". There is a lot here that says Wing Chun is a Traditional Chinese Martial Art.

I to trained Wing Chun and I train Sanda and I see a lot of similarities to Xingyiquan and Taijiquan in some aspects of Sanda training and it is most certainly not a neijia style it does have its roots in CMA however.

And your whole push hands justification is meaningless since just about every single CMA style has push hands and just about every single CMA style uses that to attack the opponent’s structure to uproot and/or off balance... even Sanda which is not Neijia and as a matter of fact not even considered Traditional CMA.

I now have more questions to ask.

How long have you trained Wing Chun?

What branch of Wing Chun are we talking about here, who was your teacher’s teacher?

How long have you trained Taiji?

What is your taiji teachers background; what other styles does he/she train, what did they train first and who was their taiji teacher and what style is it and what forms of that style are we talking about?

And again what is it you find lacking in Wing Chun that fills you with such a need to associate it with Neijia?

[Xue Sheng]

Who is Mr. Sam and /or who taught him Yang style Taijiquan? Basically what I am trying to find out here is who in this chain was taught by a member of the Yang family and which Yang family member was it.

And being ranked in a CMA, particularly a Northern system like Taiji means nothing to me. There are traditionally no ranks in Chinese Martial Arts. These appeared when it came to the west because westerners are impressed by ranks. My sifu has been doing Yang Taiji for over 50 years and has no rank other than his sifu “Tung Ying Chieh” allowed him to teach. My Sanda sifu has been doing Sanda for around 30 years and has no rank. The only Rank Chen Zhenglei has comes from the Duan system and it was given to him by the Chinese government but his family never gace him any rank. Nothing wrong with it, but to me it is fairly meaningless when we are talking CMA especially Taijiquan.

Now back to the statement "Wing Chun is an Internal System"

Listen if you want to come on MT and post all about how "Your" particular flavor of Wing Chun is taught internally then great, I have nothing to say about it except possibly tell us more. But if you show up and start saying "all" Wing Chun is internal because that is the way you train then that is just plain wrong and I am going to respond.

Saying all Wing Chun is internal because you train it that way is the same as saying you drive a front wheel drive car therefore all cars are front wheel drive... it just does not work that way

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay people not train the wing chun internal as much in states...but founding fathers of Wing Chun Qoutes illustrates the internal principals...even Viet Nam Wing Chun concentrates on the internal...

As for Sam I have to get back to you on that...I really take Tai Chi to enhance my Wing Chun...I am not knowledgable on mr sam history...well Let me say I don't remember or took notes on it...One their was discussion of lineage...but I wasn't really interested at the time in the lineage...I was more concern with the applications of Tai Chi being done by my WC sifu an another brother...


But I know your stickler for information...So next time we have class. this weekend I will asked...man my break almost over...back to work...

I rather stay at home an work on my Tai Chi Sword...

Who is Mr. Sam and /or who taught him Yang style Taijiquan? Basically what I am trying to find out here is who in this chain was taught by a member of the Yang family and which Yang family member was it.

And being ranked in a CMA, particularly a Northern system like Taiji means nothing to me. There are traditionally no ranks in Chinese Martial Arts. These appeared when it came to the west because westerners are impressed by ranks. My sifu has been doing Yang Taiji for over 50 years and has no rank other than his sifu “Tung Ying Chieh” allowed him to teach. My Sanda sifu has been doing Sanda for around 30 years and has no rank. The only Rank Chen Zhenglei has comes from the Duan system and it was given to him by the Chinese government but his family never gace him any rank. Nothing wrong with it, but to me it is fairly meaningless when we are talking CMA especially Taijiquan.

Now back to the statement "Wing Chun is an Internal System"

Listen if you want to come on MT and post all about how "Your" particular flavor of Wing Chun is taught internally then great, I have nothing to say about it except possibly tell us more. But if you show up and start saying "all" Wing Chun is internal because that is the way you train then that is just plain wrong and I am going to respond.

Saying all Wing Chun is internal because you train it that way is the same as saying you drive a front wheel drive car therefore all cars are front wheel drive... it just does not work that way

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Yoshiyahu
A quick question on your teacher's name is it

Robert Lee Macfield

On this site:

http://www.lcmakc.com/

He calls himself master Lee or Lee Macfield. So if Lee a first name or a middle name. :idunno:

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea, He was instructed to teach by Mau Chang...Some people call him Eddie Ma..My Sifu was one of the Few who learn some extra stuff from Mau Chang. But mostly everyone else was under Macfield...Who at that time they taught the Wing Chun system alot more authenic...I think they have softening up some over the years with advent of Christianity beliefs...I dont mean soft as internal either...i mean soft as less traditional...but they have something to do with the falling out with Mau Chang I am not sure...but his Wing Chun looks different that what was originally taught before...

AS FOR YOUR QUESTION: Lee I thought was HIS middle Name...I don't know why he calling himself Master Lee...but it may be to seem more Chinese...lol....ha ha...Maybe he is darker relative of Bruce Lee...But from what I heard he is excellent fighter...one not to be taking lightly...My Sifu's other Teacher is Arnold Stricklin who taught him the Five animals and five elements.

But the site seems accurate...My Sihing shared that site with me awhile ago...


Yoshiyahu
A quick question on your teacher's name is it

Robert Lee Macfield

On this site:

http://www.lcmakc.com/


He calls himself master Lee or Lee Macfield. So if Lee a first name or a middle name. :idunno:

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Yoshiyahu]

Aww no clarification at all...Just sharing what I know....



Thanks for the clarification.

[geezer]

geezer i am intrigued what is cinnabar palm? i never heard of it before, thanks in advance for your reply

On a couple of occasions I witnessed GM Leung Ting perform the Saam Pai Fut movements of Wingtsun's Siu Nim Tau ("Little Idea") form in a special way, demonstrating the so-called "chi-gung" within Wingtsun. One physical manifestation of this exercise was the darkening of the palm of his extended tan-sau (palm-up hand) to a deep, dark shade of red similar to the color of cinnabar. I believe his hand also radiated heat. Anyway, I last saw this nearly twenty years ago, and I have not personally been able to replicate this effect, so I really can't tell you much more. I believe Quicksilver posted that he had also witnessed this performed. Maybe he can add something.

[naneek]

sounds incredible, was there any special application of this palm or was it more like a show peice demonstration of chi ?

[Yoshiyahu]

Very Interesting I havent heard about cinnabar palm in my lineage...very interesting....is there any literture on the cinnabar palm one might be able to browse at?




On a couple of occasions I witnessed GM Leung Ting perform the Saam Pai Fut movements of Wingtsun's Siu Nim Tau ("Little Idea") form in a special way, demonstrating the so-called "chi-gung" within Wingtsun. One physical manifestation of this exercise was the darkening of the palm of his extended tan-sau (palm-up hand) to a deep, dark shade of red similar to the color of cinnabar. I believe his hand also radiated heat. Anyway, I last saw this nearly twenty years ago, and I have not personally been able to replicate this effect, so I really can't tell you much more. I believe Quicksilver posted that he had also witnessed this performed. Maybe he can add something.

[qwksilver61]

There is also reference to this effect in GGM Tings books,buy the pocketbook on Siu Nim Tau, it also explains in detail.I am surprised that more of you haven't heard of this,it also describes reverse breathing.When I received instruction from my then Dei Si-Hing Steve Brandon, we learned this from day one.Long term effects include without warning a wave of hot and cold,feelings of euphoria,and the ability to withstand cold.I have personally exerienced all of these things.Also, I previously forwarned (another post) against any feelings of anxiety while practicing the meditative first form,as it can cause high anxiety and create very high energy levels.Most important slow breathing,clear the mind of any distractions (no TV) and relax! I stretch my entire body at least twice a day before practicing,I believe completely in proper alignment and open meridians.These are just my own experiences and not the end all to explaining this mysterious phenomenon.I am sure there is a credible scientific explanation.I like what I have read so far.....keep it comming.

[Yoshiyahu]

Oh interesting..I have expereince some of what you said from some of chi kung practices my Sifu gave me with the wing chun...interesting...I felt a wave in one time in my hands...like electrical wave storm hard to explain..


But very interesting. I can tell you have a traditional and real sifu because much of what you is true Wing Chun...So many WC people neglect Strecthing,Chi cultivation and breathing. They neglect meditation and the use of Chi.



There is also reference to this effect in GGM Tings books,buy the pocketbook on Siu Nim Tau, it also explains in detail.I am surprised that more of you haven't heard of this,it also describes reverse breathing.When I received instruction from my then Dei Si-Hing Steve Brandon, we learned this from day one.Long term effects include without warning a wave of hot and cold,feelings of euphoria,and the ability to withstand cold.I have personally exerienced all of these things.Also, I previously forwarned (another post) against any feelings of anxiety while practicing the meditative first form,as it can cause high anxiety and create very high energy levels.Most important slow breathing,clear the mind of any distractions (no TV) and relax! I stretch my entire body at least twice a day before practicing,I believe completely in proper alignment and open meridians.These are just my own experiences and not the end all to explaining this mysterious phenomenon.I am sure there is a credible scientific explanation.I like what I have read so far.....keep it comming.

[Grunthos the Flatulent]

What do you mean internal or external? Isnt this good outside or is it only an inside thing?

[Mystic Wolf]

:trollsign
What do you mean internal or external? Isnt this good outside or is it only an inside thing?

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you know what Internal means? Eh Padre?



What do you mean internal or external? Isnt this good outside or is it only an inside thing?

[Yoshiyahu]

Did you know Sheng that Goat Gripping or Goat Clamping stance from Wing Chun is a qigong stance?

For my Wing Chun Brothers and Sisters...Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma or Basic Stance(Lady Ma) is a qigong stance which cultivates Chi.

Watch the class Doing stances including YGKYM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O32qbmyd-3U

They call it Goat-Griping stance in the video...

Xue Sheng do you have any videos of people using the Wing Chun Stance doing Qi Gong?



Who is Mr. Sam and /or who taught him Yang style Taijiquan? Basically what I am trying to find out here is who in this chain was taught by a member of the Yang family and which Yang family member was it.

And being ranked in a CMA, particularly a Northern system like Taiji means nothing to me. There are traditionally no ranks in Chinese Martial Arts. These appeared when it came to the west because westerners are impressed by ranks. My sifu has been doing Yang Taiji for over 50 years and has no rank other than his sifu “Tung Ying Chieh” allowed him to teach. My Sanda sifu has been doing Sanda for around 30 years and has no rank. The only Rank Chen Zhenglei has comes from the Duan system and it was given to him by the Chinese government but his family never gace him any rank. Nothing wrong with it, but to me it is fairly meaningless when we are talking CMA especially Taijiquan.

Now back to the statement "Wing Chun is an Internal System"

Listen if you want to come on MT and post all about how "Your" particular flavor of Wing Chun is taught internally then great, I have nothing to say about it except possibly tell us more. But if you show up and start saying "all" Wing Chun is internal because that is the way you train then that is just plain wrong and I am going to respond.

Saying all Wing Chun is internal because you train it that way is the same as saying you drive a front wheel drive car therefore all cars are front wheel drive... it just does not work that way

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I think the goat clamping stance does not look very good for the knees.

Though you may feel balanced the structure I feel is not aligned.

If you can stand as in Zhan Zhuang and sink you will feel a burn in the Quadricep and the alignement goes straight not in or out.

Also if you have to tense you are not relaxing.

It's not a bad thing really it is more of an External type of cultivation similar to weight lifting.

[Xue Sheng]

I am honestly thinking of asking Bob for a “been there done that” section of MT because this is getting old.

Every Single Traditional Chinese Martial Art has stance training and Just about every single Traditional Chinese Martial Art has some sort of Qi training but the only ones called Neijia are Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji, Liuhebafa and by heritage Yiquan. However I am not sure Wang Xiangzhai would have wanted it labeled as such.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Well, I know very little about internal systems.. The only one that was called internal and that I have pesonal experience in is WC. But when you wikipedia neijia or internal styles it says there are 3 primary criteria that distinguis an internal art. Those being:

An emphasis on the use of the mind to coordinate the leverage of the relaxed body as opposed to the use of brute strength. (This is very true for WC and is one of its most important principals)
The internal development, circulation, and expression of qì (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q%C3%AC). (As other have mentioned the YGKYM and especialy the Sam bai fut section of the first form are sopose to cover this)
The application of Taoist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoist) dǎoyǐn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C7%8Eoy%C7%90n), qìgōng (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q%C3%ACg%C5%8Dng), and nèigōng (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neigong) (內功) principles of external movement. (I never heard of the first one but WC is sopose to have both qigung and nei gung)
I personaly don't know what to say about it becouse I don't realy belive in Chi nor have I found a phenomena in my WC training that I couldn't explain with structure, alignment, anatomy, relaxation(you get the point)... Even the dark red palm thats hotter than usual that Geezer noticed on GM Leung Ting I think of as increased blood circulation (but who knows maybe thats what the Chinese ment by Chi) and have experineced it myself, esspecialy when doing the form slow and relaxed. But besides that it looks WC qualifies among internal styles if those are the only criteria.. Allthough wikipedia doesn't mention WC as an internal style and only metniones the ones Xue Sheng did.

Saying all this, and expresing how I look at Chi I would like to ask if anybody had any object moving, water boiling experience(seen for themselfs) with Chi? I know a forum member of MT called Ali Rahim posted a video on youtube ones showing of his ability to turn of a flame on a candle with Chi. I would love to hear from someone who has knowledge on the field some explanations or experience.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Ok lets just make this easier then. Internal as in Neijia as in having a strong Taoist root.

Bagua=I ching

Hsing yi= Wu xing

Tai chi chuan-Yin,Yang,Tao,Wu chi

The third criteria is a big one. TAOIST stretching(Daoyin)TAOIST Qigong,
TAOIST neigong.

Wing chun according to some comes from Shaolin. So the training involved has some similarites to the Neijia styles BUT the Neijia style have there own TAOIST characteristics.

Maybe Wing chun has some of the characeristics that Neijia has I can also take any art and say that as well.


Saying all this, and expresing how I look at Chi I would like to ask if anybody had any object moving, water boiling experience(seen for themselfs) with Chi? Is that how you view Qi as an ability to boil water and move objects? That is the thing about skeptics on Qi.

They think Qi is a mystical force that moves objects but the defination of Qi is none of that so a skeptic has a notion of what Qi is and reminds skeptic due to their own ignorance of the subject.

When ever you do a step in Wing chun forward backwards or whatever is the lead foot empty?
I notice in Bagua,Hsing yi and Tai chi chuan stepping one foot is usually empty or slowly going into the other foot. Also there is not alot of 50/50 footwork or stepping.

Bagua-walking circle one foot is usually with weight one is not.
Hsing yi-70/30
Tai chi chuan-empty step.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I tried to make clear that I have very little experinece on the subject and also that these are only ma belifes.. So please don't take any offense becouse of how I see things. But maybe if I knew more I would change them, who knows?


Is that how you view Qi as an ability to boil water and move objects? That is the thing about skeptics on Qi.

They think Qi is a mystical force that moves objects but the defination of Qi is none of that so a skeptic has a notion of what Qi is and reminds skeptic due to their own ignorance of the subject.

It was intened to be a bit humuros (in which I obviously failed :)) due to the magic, mystic asociations people usualy get when there is talk about chi. And also becouse I have seen videos of people doing just that( boiling water, move objects and also extinguishing fire as I stated on youtube videos) by the means of chi. For example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aos0hnwiHt8

As I said I tryed to make clear that I am ignorant on the subject(which you allread correctly judged me as).. Just tryed to contribute to the post and ask a question. But besides calling me ignorant why don't you please share some of your knowledge so I wont be :) It seems to me that I have offended you with my disbelief or ignorance but I assure you I wrote that with good intentions.. As I said I would love to know more on the subject if your willing to share!

[Xue Sheng]

I tried to make clear that I have very little experinece on the subject and also that these are only ma belifes.. So please don't take any offense becouse of how I see things. But maybe if I knew more I would change them, who knows?



It was intened to be a bit humuros (in which I obviously failed :)) due to the magic, mystic asociations people usualy get when there is talk about chi. And also becouse I have seen videos of people doing just that( boiling water, move objects and also extinguishing fire as I stated on youtube videos) by the means of chi. For example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aos0hnwiHt8

As I said I tryed to make clear that I am ignorant on the subject(which you allread correctly judged me as).. Just tryed to contribute to the post and ask a question. But besides calling me ignorant why don't you please share some of your knowledge so I wont be :) It seems to me that I have offended you with my disbelief or ignorance but I assure you I wrote that with good intentions.. As I said I would love to know more on the subject if your willing to share!

Be more careful next time or you will force me to shoot mystic qi energy balls at you... if you hear me yelling kamehameha...duck and cover :D

[JadecloudAlchemist]

My apologies Eru.

People that practice Qigong we get alot of flack.

I really try on this site to clear up the whole mystical Qi thing.Though it does exist but I think that is more religious.

Qi really just means energy.

Alot of times when we are speaking about Qi we are talking about Ren Qi(human Qi). IMO Mitochondra may best describe what Qi is since blood and Qi are independent within the body.

Ying Qi which is best decribed as nurishing energy would be the nurients recieved from food and used by the body.

Is it possible to do what the video does?
I have never seen it done in real life. I have been practicing Qigong for over 10 yrs and I have yet to see anything close to that.

Maybe it is possible but I rather think of another explaination of it be it gun powder or what not.

I have heard tales of Qigong masters being able to do strange things some of them may be true. Some may be blown out of portion and some are simple tricks. Those who claim such feats are practicing either a religious type of Qigong or are using tricks.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

No apologise necesery. Thank you Jadecloud! That was very informative. Interesting you mention mitochondrians. Arent they soppose to produce the cells energy in the krebs cycle (not sure how you write it in English?) from oxygen? That would would go well hand in hand with things I hear Chi is soppose to do. Allthough how would you explain body movements such as qigung having an effect on that level? And would a statement such as Chi si blood be completly wrong? I have heard many times people who know things about Chi sugest that but never realy say it.. Thanks again and sorry to you if it looked like I want to be a smartass.


Be more careful next time or you will force me to shoot mystic qi energy balls at you... if you hear me yelling kamehameha...duck and cover :D

Man would that kind of thing help with my martial training :)! Talking about efficency in selfdefence and doing the most deamege to your opponent in the least amount of time :D

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Qi is Qi. Blood would be called Xue. However you can not seperate the Qi from the blood well at least not in Qigong theory that I know of.

The Chinese of old knew that you can obtain Qi from Heaven(Tian Qi).
In modern times we can say we obtain Air from the Atmosphere to the body.

The movements in basic understanding would be similar to weight training or modern type calisthenics. For example moving the arms creates more circulation by actual arm movement or when we generate a thought we are leading Qi or energy to the arm to increase circulation.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

It seems so unbelivable to me how this Chinese people all those thousands of years ago knew so much of how things work not having technology as today. They really knew something. I heard somewhere that acupuncture is the only non-traditional-western-medicine-thing (for a lack of a better word in English :D) from which the Western medicine acknowledges its benefits.

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun Stepping is actually about 70% on the back leg and 30% on front leg. So in Wing Chun you have substantial and unsubstantial weight distribution. When you step forward in Wing Chun The front foot lifts up and weight drags on back foot. So when the front foot comes down your weight shoots forward accomapanied with a punch gives you that extra power. But Wing Chun is rarely fifty/fifty in weight. When your in side bracing stance there is substantial and insubstantial weight. But with Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma it is a little difference. However in my lineage you lift off the heels slightly and place more weight on balls of the foot. Different lineages change this. Some place more on the back than the toe...Depends on the lineage. But even with the foot you have difference of weight distribution.

I hope that answers your question. There are various steps where the weight distribution changes. Like with C-Step. But I wont go any further I will let others share about their lineage!

[quote=JadecloudAlchemist;1098426]When ever you do a step in Wing chun forward backwards or whatever is the lead foot empty?quote]

[qwksilver61]

Odd....we still use OLD knowlege...I once visited the royal tombs of China...blown away...the Chinese are responsible for suspension bridges,umbrellas,gunpowder,the crossbow and bolt,the list goes on.....
There have been and currently are classes conducted on remote viewing,something that the west for a long time has dismissed as poo-poo.Studies of monks who seemingly defy extremes of cold ( the part of the brain (can anyone tell me? it controls body temp.) proof of this...a man who was struck by lightning who is unable to control his body temperature (still under study) odd too that the most powerful modern computers cannot accurately predict the long term effects of global warming.....blah...blah....blah....

[Yoshiyahu]

Interesting discussion...But what are you talking about?




Odd....we still use OLD knowlege...I once visited the royal tombs of China...blown away...the Chinese are responsible for suspension bridges,umbrellas,gunpowder,the crossbow and bolt,the list goes on.....
There have been and currently are classes conducted on remote viewing,something that the west for a long time has dismissed as poo-poo.Studies of monks who seemingly defy extremes of cold ( the part of the brain (can anyone tell me? it controls body temp.) proof of this...a man who was struck by lightning who is unable to control his body temperature (still under study) odd too that the most powerful modern computers cannot accurately predict the long term effects of global warming.....blah...blah....blah....

[qwksilver61]

OK. let me put it to you this way.....most people are skeptics.......
scientists will study something to death......because you cannot feel or see a thing does not mean that it does not exist.....why then after years of study,are some just starting to accept or grasp a thing unseen ? Remote viewing,premonitions....Chi......?
I think some....want to study a thing to death before realizing that it exists.I love to share my experiences with other people,do I alone possess it? am I the end all ,know all? This internal thing that we have discussed,Is a personal thing.This is not meant to confuse,but yeah this is my experience,has anyone here experienced Chi? Really........?????????? If so, how did you recognize it? What did it feel like to you? Were you fully aware of what was taking place? just a question,not a parable.Oh and thanks to everyone for at least attempting to understand my absurdity & doublespeak..........

[Yoshiyahu]

Please elaborate.


OK. let me put it to you this way.....most people are skeptics.......
scientists will study something to death......because you cannot feel or see a thing does not mean that it does not exist.....why then after years of study,are some just starting to accept or grasp a thing unseen ? Remote viewing,premonitions....Chi......?
I think some....want to study a thing to death before realizing that it exists.I love to share my experiences with other people,do I alone possess it? am I the end all ,know all? This internal thing that we have discussed,Is a personal thing.This is not meant to confuse,but yeah this is my experience,has anyone here experienced Chi? Really........?????????? If so, how did you recognize it? What did it feel like to you? Were you fully aware of what was taking place? just a question,not a parable.Oh and thank to everyone for at least attempting to understand my absurdity & doublespeak..........

[qwksilver61]

Ok. read ERU's post simply put......modern does not mean better or necessarily more knowledgeable,the ancients understood without beating a thing to death or overkill.
Again.......Does anyone here believe that they have ever experienced Chi? How did you recognize it? How Did you feel? Do Tell........

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you think some of ancient internal styles have died out from not being practice or forgotten. If so do you recall any of the names of the styles names?


How do you feel about New Arts combinations such as MMA? and Yoga and Tai Chi.


Ok. read ERU's post simply put......modern does not mean better or necessarily more knowledgeable,the ancients understood without beating a thing to death or overkill.
Again.......Does anyone here believe that they have ever experienced Chi? How did you recognize it? How Did you feel? Do Tell........

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Ok. read ERU's post simply put......modern does not mean better or necessarily more knowledgeable,the ancients understood without beating a thing to death or overkill.
Again.......Does anyone here believe that they have ever experienced Chi? How did you recognize it? How Did you feel? Do Tell........


Yea Quicksilver, looks like we're on the same page :) Well about the Chi question... I realy don't know what to say cuz I don't realy know what Chi is and as I said haven't found a thing(at least in WC that I couldn't racionalise). But I hear a lot of people/even masters asigning skill like structure (able to resist strong force or emit strong force) to Chi or something mystical. In that sense, if thats Chi or how chinese saw this redirection of energy to the ground or from the ground than yes I do have experience with it. My instructure believed in it to a certein degree and also noted that sometimes when he does the from he can feel a tingling sensation up his spine(which is where the Chi is travelin/you want it to travel while doing the from as I understand it). He could also demonstrate a heat pulse from his hand on my hand. Infact one of my Sihings noted that he once felt this for an hour after Sifu did it on him.

It would realy help if somebody who has experience on the field could expain what Chi is in the WC context and in which techniqes or examples does it manifest...

But even though I admit I don't belive in the mystic part of the Chi I am still fascinated about it as I see it's theory very similar to what we today "know" about human body/life just under a diffrent name and from a diffrent perspective. Have to consider that they din't have X-rays or so much knowledge about stuff in those days but they still explained quite a lot with Chi and yin/yang theories which in my eyes often corelates with what we Westerners know as a "fact".

[Yoshiyahu]

There is nothing magical or mysterious about Chi. Chi is a chinese word for Enery. Your cells need energy to work. We all have electrical pulses through our bodies. Your cells get energy from the Sun, Oxygen and Food. Thats why certain foods provide energy for your cells. Your Chi also comes from Oxygen and Food. Some people disagree over weather or not we gain energy from the sun. But certain internal experts teach the sun, the earth, the trees, and other people we also gain Chi from. But anyway lets not get into that debate....

Chi seems mysterious because in the west their are not Great Caucasian minds speak to truth of Chi. But you also create or cultivate more Chi through Skill work. As you said before. Doing a Horse stance, Running laps, Doing push ups and sit ups, hitting the wall bag or heavy bag. Etc Etc. You acquire more skills and cultivate more Chi. Chi Kung means Enery Work or Energy skill. So people who do Chi Kung or Hei Gong are acquiring Chi Skills.

But so far your comparisons are right on the money concerning Wing Chun and Chi. I have little to disagree on. Others may debate on your practice. But Chi is just a word don't get wrapped up in it. Its like saying the word punch or kick. You need a label for it everyone can understand and use. With out label no one will truly understand what you mean. The problem with the theory of Chi is Kung Fu movies. We see people flying through air, Doing Hiyukiens and shooting fire balls out of their hand, Disappearing, leviatation or traveling through time and space. We we attribute this craziness to Chi. No No...its not that crazy or mystical its actually really scientifical as you said.

If you want to develop Chi three good ways to do it

1.Strecth your body from head to toe and breath while your doing it!
2.Do all the empty hand forms really slowly.
3.Sit in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma for twenty to thirty minutes daily.


This will aid you in your pursuit to cultivate Chi.

In my humble opinion!



Yea Quicksilver, looks like we're on the same page :) Well about the Chi question... I realy don't know what to say cuz I don't realy know what Chi is and as I said haven't found a thing(at least in WC that I couldn't racionalise). But I hear a lot of people/even masters asigning skill like structure (able to resist strong force or emit strong force) to Chi or something mystical. In that sense, if thats Chi or how chinese saw this redirection of energy to the ground or from the ground than yes I do have experience with it. My instructure believed in it to a certein degree and also noted that sometimes when he does the from he can feel a tingling sensation up his spine(which is where the Chi is travelin/you want it to travel while doing the from as I understand it). He could also demonstrate a heat pulse from his hand on my hand. Infact one of my Sihings noted that he once felt this for an hour after Sifu did it on him.

It would realy help if somebody who has experience on the field could expain what Chi is in the WC context and in which techniqes or examples does it manifest...

But even though I admit I don't belive in the mystic part of the Chi I am still fascinated about it as I see it's theory very similar to what we today "know" about human body/life just under a diffrent name and from a diffrent perspective. Have to consider that they din't have X-rays or so much knowledge about stuff in those days but they still explained quite a lot with Chi and yin/yang theories which in my eyes often corelates with what we Westerners know as a "fact".

[Eru Ilúvatar]

There is nothing magical or mysterious about Chi. Chi is a chinese word for Enery. Your cells need energy to work. We all have electrical pulses through our bodies. Your cells get energy from the Sun, Oxygen and Food. Thats why certain foods provide energy for your cells. Your Chi also comes from Oxygen and Food. Some people disagree over weather or not we gain energy from the sun. But certain internal experts teach the sun, the earth, the trees, and other people we also gain Chi from. But anyway lets not get into that debate....

Chi seems mysterious because in the west their are not Great Caucasian minds speak to truth of Chi. But you also create or cultivate more Chi through Skill work. As you said before. Doing a Horse stance, Running laps, Doing push ups and sit ups, hitting the wall bag or heavy bag. Etc Etc. You acquire more skills and cultivate more Chi. Chi Kung means Enery Work or Energy skill. So people who do Chi Kung or Hei Gong are acquiring Chi Skills.

But so far your comparisons are right on the money concerning Wing Chun and Chi. I have little to disagree on. Others may debate on your practice. But Chi is just a word don't get wrapped up in it. Its like saying the word punch or kick. You need a label for it everyone can understand and use. With out label no one will truly understand what you mean. The problem with the theory of Chi is Kung Fu movies. We see people flying through air, Doing Hiyukiens and shooting fire balls out of their hand, Disappearing, leviatation or traveling through time and space. We we attribute this craziness to Chi. No No...its not that crazy or mystical its actually really scientifical as you said.

If you want to develop Chi three good ways to do it

1.Strecth your body from head to toe and breath while your doing it!
2.Do all the empty hand forms really slowly.
3.Sit in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma for twenty to thirty minutes daily.


This will aid you in your pursuit to cultivate Chi.

In my humble opinion!


Damn, I may not agree with you on the orgins of wrestling and on thoughts about gay people but it would be almost immposible to deny that your very knowlegable and you have helped me understand many aspects of WC better and your not on this forum for very long! You gave me some very (to me)valuable information in your posts. I thank you for that!

[Yoshiyahu]

Wow...That post struck me very direct. I think you are using Wing Chun in your post. Thank you very much. Actually I know nothing I just be. I try to study and practice as best I can so I can progress I share what I think I know at the time. Who knows maybe one day I might find from my practice Chi really is mystical and I can fly around and do spectacular feet like teleport and turn invisible and read peoples minds make fire and electricity come out of hands like something out of return of the jedi. But if I did discover Chi was mystical and could make fire come out of hands and fly around. I probably would still say same thing...Its nothing mystical. In Fact I would probably make it my point to let people know its nothing mystical about even if it really was.


But in the mean time the main thing is practice. There are no magic moves or magic styles that can beat everyone else. There is no secret formula that will gurantee you one percent success in every fight even against a novice. The main thing is always always practice...

But I am glad to have help someone. If I am able to help one person I know my Sifu would be happen. Since he places so much stock into helping others.

But as for opinions I am sure there are alot of people on here alot more knowledgeable than me. I love talking with these people the most. An conflicting opinions sometimes help us learn more about our own System. Its great win win everytime. I myself learn from everyone even Children!!!



Damn, I may not agree with you on the orgins of wrestling and on thoughts about gay people but it would be almost immposible to deny that your very knowlegable and you have helped me understand many aspects of WC better and your not on this forum for very long! You gave me some very (to me)valuable information in your posts. I thank you for that!

[Eru Ilúvatar]

But as for opinions I am sure there are alot of people on here alot more knowledgeable than me. I love talking with these people the most. An conflicting opinions sometimes help us learn more about our own System. Its great win win everytime. I myself learn from everyone even Children!!!


Yea exactly! It's a shame tho, that some people are afraid to share information or something. Guess they think they'll lose an edge on everybody by putting their secret techniques out there? Or some I feel belive that if they've worked hard for that information and were treated badly in the process that others must go from the same stuff, to get it. I've met a few people like that in the martial arts world, but I'm glad to say that the majority here is not like that at all! I think Geezer stated in one thread something that I liked a lot. Something in the sense; if we would all share we would all benefit greatly. Plus it's too short of a lifetime to discover everything by yourself. Speaking about economy of motion...

[Yoshiyahu]

So true I have to agree with you. So by all means please share your opinions on Internal Side of Wing Chun. Maybe something you read,experience or heard from your Sifu. Please share?



Yea exactly! It's a shame tho, that some people are afraid to share information or something. Guess they think they'll lose an edge on everybody by putting their secret techniques out there? Or some I feel belive that if they've worked hard for that information and were treated badly in the process that others must go from the same stuff, to get it. I've met a few people like that in the martial arts world, but I'm glad to say that the majority here is not like that at all! I think Geezer stated in one thread something that I liked a lot. Something in the sense; if we would all share we would all benefit greatly. Plus it's too short of a lifetime to discover everything by yourself. Speaking about economy of motion...

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Hm well.. Ok, but I can tell you very little what I know/was thought about it becouse there wasn't a huge importance put on it, and well I'm that sort of guy that I didn't realy care too much about it.

What I was thought was that while doing forms, if you want the Chi to flow you have to curl the pelvis, sink your breathing down to Dan tien, make your back straight and connect the toungue to the pelate of your mouthe, oh and being realxed and breathe naturaly of course. If you don't do that your Chi can't flow properly.

But know look, this are all fine but well, but I see it as so: you curl the pelvis becouse of the structure, you sink the breathing to lower your center of gravity plus it's a relaxed way of breathing, straight back is structure too and you connect the tounge to the pellet well to get used to it :) You don't want your tounge bitten of by yourself in the middle of a fight do you?

There are other things and breathing exercise that we did but would be allmost immposible to describe them plus things in the forms that we did becouse of Chi aspects but they all head very meaningful applications in street combat.

[Yoshiyahu]

Very Very good. I feel the same way. In Fact some of the practices like standing in YGKYM for an hour each day to cultivate Chi I discovered that it makes you stronger. Meaning you are more grounded or rooted if you continue to practice that way. I personally Have not done an Hour in some years...I don't have the time too right now. I try to cover as much as I can. But its still great way to increase Chi, Energy or Strength. What ever one wants to call it.


I also notice from practicing the old traditional stances like Horse stance, Crossing Horse, Arrow Stance etc. You begin to build muslce in your legs. Kinda like from doing endless squats. But the difference is your working your muscles by static exercises. Instead of moving ones.

Its very interesting how you correlate the fighting application with the Chi cultivation aspects. Everything in Wing Chun has more than one application. This is so true. But my Sifu was one who always stressed the Chi. He always stressed healing and what not. But he was a fighter. He loved the fight. But he was trying to change from that because he is getting older.

But yes its great to see others embracing the Chi side of Wing Chun.

I am glad that you are open minded. Have you ever asked you Sifu about the Chi?

Also many Sifu's do not teach about the Chi because Westerners don't care about it. I usually tell people about certain practices I first tell them about the Chi but really make a point that doing various exercises will make them stronger or quicker or increase their skill in other areas. Which it does.


Hm well.. Ok, but I can tell you very little what I know/was thought about it becouse there wasn't a huge importance put on it, and well I'm that sort of guy that I didn't realy care too much about it.

What I was thought was that while doing forms, if you want the Chi to flow you have to curl the pelvis, sink your breathing down to Dan tien, make your back straight and connect the toungue to the pelate of your mouthe, oh and being realxed and breathe naturaly of course. If you don't do that your Chi can't flow properly.

But know look, this are all fine but well, but I see it as so: you curl the pelvis becouse of the structure, you sink the breathing to lower your center of gravity plus it's a relaxed way of breathing, straight back is structure too and you connect the tounge to the pellet well to get used to it :) You don't want your tounge bitten of by yourself in the middle of a fight do you?

There are other things and breathing exercise that we did but would be allmost immposible to describe them plus things in the forms that we did becouse of Chi aspects but they all head very meaningful applications in street combat.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I completely agree with you on the stances. I did ask my Sifu about Chi a couple of times. He allways responded in the sense that it does exist and that he can also "feel" it to a certein extent tho he hasn't found anything Jedi like it's cultivation yet. He also said that it reenergises you and that everybody has it. But he wasn't bothered to much about it; he didn't study it very hard and couldn't name you all the meridians and where they are or nothing like that. But hes sifu, my sigung had more knowledge about it and he allways said that WC is soppose to be a very well balanced art in virtualy all aspects; like health, selfdefence, mind-wise and also that it stays true to the 5elements theory.

Oh and this kind of on the same topic so I would like to ask you guys what you can tell me about the 5elements and WC? I basicly know nothing about it. Neither can I ask my instructore as he left the country a while ago(story of my life with WC instructores)

[JadecloudAlchemist]

The five elements theory may be credited to Tsou Yen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsou_Yen

It consist of both a generating cycle and destructive cycle.

In the Yellow Emperor's classic Neijing suwen we find in the truth of the Golden chamber the five elements and there realtion to things.

This subject is very important to Chinese thought and within the Health,Martial and Religious ideals.

[Xue Sheng]

Hebei Xingyiquan Wuxing

Wood creates fire, fire creates earth, and earth creates metal, metal creates water, water creates wood

Wood conquers Earth, Earth conquers water, water conquers fire, fire conquers metal, and metal conquers wood

This applies to attack and defense within Xingyiquan Wuxing

My flavor of Yang Taijiquan Wuxing

South – Fire
East – Wood
West – Metal
North – Water
Center - Earth

But it is not applied the same as it is in Hebei Xingyiquan and the chart representing it is quite different.

However I am told if you are training with the Yang family the chart is the same as Xingyiquan but again the application of it is different

[Yoshiyahu]

Well Interesting. Can you give us ideas on how you apply elements. Maybe how would you apply Fire in Xing Yi when fighting? What type of opponent would use the Fire Element and why?




Hebei Xingyiquan Wuxing

Wood creates fire, fire creates earth, and earth creates metal, metal creates water, water creates wood

Wood conquers Earth, Earth conquers water, water conquers fire, fire conquers metal, and metal conquers wood

This applies to attack and defense within Xingyiquan Wuxing

My flavor of Yang Taijiquan Wuxing

South – Fire
East – Wood
West – Metal
North – Water
Center - Earth

But it is not applied the same as it is in Hebei Xingyiquan and the chart representing it is quite different.

However I am told if you are training with the Yang family the chart is the same as Xingyiquan but again the application of it is different

[Xue Sheng]

Well Interesting. Can you give us ideas on how you apply elements. Maybe how would you apply Fire in Xing Yi when fighting? What type of opponent would use the Fire Element and why?

I already have

Wood creates fire, fire creates earth, and earth creates metal, metal creates water, water creates wood

Wood conquers Earth, Earth conquers water, water conquers fire, fire conquers metal, and metal conquers wood

Wuxing (5 elements) is made up of 5 forms that are also categorized by element and the idea is to categorize all attacks and defenses into these elements and respond with the proper form.

Attack with wood respond with metal,
Wood then can changes to fire to counter metal,
metal change to water to counter fire,
Fire changes to earth to counter water
Water changes to wood to counter earth
Earth changes to metal to counter wood
And you are back at the beginning

piquan – splitting fist – metal
zuanquan – drilling fist – water
bengquan –smashing fist – wood
paoquan – pounding fist – fire
hengquan – crossing fist - earth

The never ending circle of attack and counter-attack

Remember in Xingyiquan attack is defense and defense is attack

[JadecloudAlchemist]

To help illustrate the point in Hsing yi on how the elements react.

Lets say opponent uses Metal-splitting-Piquan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVq4JVoZW-0&feature=related

**Note I picked him because he moves slow not because he is good**

You use Fire-pounding-Paoquan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xJJYWxVa6Q&feature=related

Thats the theory however you can use other elements against each other they are not written in stone. I might use Wood-smashing-Benquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SWRnnc9thw&feature=related
against Fire-pounding-Paoquan if I thought I was fast enough or whatever.

Again the guy in the video is a begginer but he does it slow to so you can see the technique the really good masters do it so fast its hard to see lol.

[Yoshiyahu]

Todah Rabah for the videos. I am glad you have shared your knowledge with me. Keep up the good work. Which of the elements is one of your favorites?

You Said:
The never ending circle of attack and counter-attack

Remember in Xingyiquan attack is defense and defense is attack

This reminds me of Wing Chun...Wow so many similarites.

[Xue Sheng]

. Which of the elements is one of your favorites?


No favorites all are equally important

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Xue Sheng, knowing that you studied WC, I would be very grateful if you could tell me as much as time allows you about the 5 elements and WC. Could you tell me for example, in what techniqes does a particular element manifest? Or what elements do you see in something like Yee gee kim yeung ma? Also, knowing WC principals an theories what elements would you say are dominant in WC?
I thank you in advance for your time.

[Yoshiyahu]

Thats an excellent question...I can not wait to here their answers...Also Jade feel free to chime in on this question I look forward to hearing your response. I was woundering what that very thing. I personally have my opinion of what element is dominant in Wing Chun but I have a limited knowledge of the Five Elements right now.

Buts it Ironic Eru Iluvatar I was thinking about asking this same question on my next Break at work...wow...great mind reading!


Xue Sheng, knowing that you studied WC, I would be very grateful if you could tell me as much as time allows you about the 5 elements and WC. Could you tell me for example, in what techniqes does a particular element manifest? Or what elements do you see in something like Yee gee kim yeung ma? Also, knowing WC principals an theories what elements would you say are dominant in WC?
I thank you in advance for your time.

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng, knowing that you studied WC, I would be very grateful if you could tell me as much as time allows you about the 5 elements and WC. Could you tell me for example, in what techniqes does a particular element manifest? Or what elements do you see in something like Yee gee kim yeung ma? Also, knowing WC principals an theories what elements would you say are dominant in WC?
I thank you in advance for your time.

Nope, I have not trained Wing Chun past Sil lim Tao and I never got into the elements in Wing Chun at all. I am a Taiji guy first and a Xingyi guy second or third. Wing Chun time in training experience for me would come after a few other styles I've done. It is just Wing Chun (for the 3rd and likely final time) is more recent than the others.

I can say however, from the last time I tried Wing Chun and we were working applications that all of my attacks are either Sanda or Xingyiquan and it appeared that all had a big problem defending against Xingyiquan piquan – splitting fist – metal and zuanquan – drilling fist – water. I was not trying to use Xingyiquan I just couldn't stop it no matter how hard I tried. I do not believe I used any of the other 5 elements only metal and water.

It got to a point where the rest of the students stop drilling and asked the Sifu what to do and he had me attack and he stopped me but we were in a stalemate and neither of us could move. If one moved the other could attack so we stood there. I will say I was rather impressed at how he got control of every possible avenue of attack so quickly. However it left me in control of him as well, his advantage though was he was quicker, mine was I am bigger and in a real good podition for kao had he moved. It was interesting and I would have loved to explore that more but he had other students who were getting it better than I.

I did get to a point where I was able to not use proper application of Piquan but it was taking WAAAAY too much effort and I was taking up WAAAAAY to much of my sifus time trying to figure out how to stop this from occurring so I quit.

Also all my defenses, no matter how hard I tried to change it were various applications of taijiquan. I was able to truncate those however but it was still not Wing Chun.

So I left, rather sadly actually, because I have always been pretty impressed by Wing Chum

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Oh ok. Thanks for the input anyway! I would like to ask you about this: piquan – splitting fist – metal
zuanquan – drilling fist – water
bengquan –smashing fist – wood
paoquan – pounding fist – fire
hengquan – crossing fist - earth

What are they? :) Could you give me examples please, becouse execpt for a drilling fist I have no idea how the other would look like. Had a problem understanding part of your post becouse of it too. What element would a vertical straight punch be? Does anybody know? I know my instructore talked once about Bong Sao having elements of this and that elemnt in it and so on. But I unfortunately forgot all about it :)

[Xue Sheng]

Oh ok. Thanks for the input anyway! I would like to ask you about this: piquan – splitting fist – metal
zuanquan – drilling fist – water
bengquan –smashing fist – wood
paoquan – pounding fist – fire
hengquan – crossing fist - earth

What are they? :) Could you give me examples please, becouse execpt for a drilling fist I have no idea how the other would look like. Had a problem understanding part of your post becouse of it too. What element would a vertical straight punch be? Does anybody know? I know my instructore talked once about Bong Sao having elements of this and that elemnt in it and so on. But I unfortunately forgot all about it :)

Under Splitting - Emptyflower Xingyiquan (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html)

Then under Beginning Forms



Beginning Forms
• Wuji "State of Emptiness"
• Taiji "Supreme Poles"
• San Ti Shi "Trinity Posture"
• Wu Xing "Five Elements"
• Pi Quan "Splitting Fist"
• Zuan Quan "Drilling Fist"
• Beng Quan "Crushing Fist"
• Pao Quan "Pounding Fist"
• Heng Quan "Crossing Fist"


Also note the 5 elements and their applications are not necessarily the same form style to style. And although Xingyiquan looks rather simple believe me it is not.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I am using this guy again because I can't show the fist without it being linked with other fist or it is to fast to see the application.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xJJYWxVa6Q

Paoquan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQZ3xn-UmjI
5 element form with the actual name so you can see the technique done somewhat fast but a very good demonstration and power.

I don't know Wing chuns approach to the Five elements but this may help:

Splitting fist-metal-Pi=As if cutting wood up and over

Drilling fist-Water-Zu=like a geyser shooting up

Pounding fist-Fire-Pao-like a slamming

Crossing fist-Earth-Heng-like a curving type strike

Smashing fist-Wood-Beng-Like a shooting arrow that expands and contracts .

[Yoshiyahu]

Well Tai Chi is your main style...It sounds like your body automatically defaults to Tai Chi Chuan. Well I think all you need from Wing Chun is to spar them. If your that skilled in Tai Chi you have the same things. You have softness and cirlce defenses. To turn off force and roll it away and neutralize it.

I choose Wing Chun because I have been doing for so long.

That is tight though. I wish I could spar with you on regular basis. That way I can have contact with a pretty skilled guy to harness my skill.





Nope, I have not trained Wing Chun past Sil lim Tao and I never got into the elements in Wing Chun at all. I am a Taiji guy first and a Xingyi guy second or third. Wing Chun time in training experience for me would come after a few other styles I've done. It is just Wing Chun (for the 3rd and likely final time) is more recent than the others.

I can say however, from the last time I tried Wing Chun and we were working applications that all of my attacks are either Sanda or Xingyiquan and it appeared that all had a big problem defending against Xingyiquan piquan – splitting fist – metal and zuanquan – drilling fist – water. I was not trying to use Xingyiquan I just couldn't stop it no matter how hard I tried. I do not believe I used any of the other 5 elements only metal and water.

It got to a point where the rest of the students stop drilling and asked the Sifu what to do and he had me attack and he stopped me but we were in a stalemate and neither of us could move. If one moved the other could attack so we stood there. I will say I was rather impressed at how he got control of every possible avenue of attack so quickly. However it left me in control of him as well, his advantage though was he was quicker, mine was I am bigger and in a real good podition for kao had he moved. It was interesting and I would have loved to explore that more but he had other students who were getting it better than I.

I did get to a point where I was able to not use proper application of Piquan but it was taking WAAAAY too much effort and I was taking up WAAAAAY to much of my sifus time trying to figure out how to stop this from occurring so I quit.

Also all my defenses, no matter how hard I tried to change it were various applications of taijiquan. I was able to truncate those however but it was still not Wing Chun.

So I left, rather sadly actually, because I have always been pretty impressed by Wing Chum

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Under Splitting - Emptyflower Xingyiquan (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html)

Then under Beginning Forms

Hey, thanks Xue! I realy have to take my time and read from this site. It looks great.


I am using this guy again because I can't show the fist without it being linked with other fist or it is to fast to see the application.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xJJYWxVa6Q

Paoquan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQZ3xn-UmjI
5 element form with the actual name so you can see the technique done somewhat fast but a very good demonstration and power.

I don't know Wing chuns approach to the Five elements but this may help:

Splitting fist-metal-Pi=As if cutting wood up and over

Drilling fist-Water-Zu=like a geyser shooting up

Pounding fist-Fire-Pao-like a slamming

Crossing fist-Earth-Heng-like a curving type strike

Smashing fist-Wood-Beng-Like a shooting arrow that expands and contracts

Thanks! Interesting video. Hey WC people, doesn't a shooting arrow that expands and contracts sound sort of like the punch tha we do? And it looks to me that when the guy in the second video does Beng it's sort of chain punchi-ish?

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Yes Beng is sort of like a chain punch because when you strike it is expanding then it comes back allowing the other hand to become long like a rebound.

[Xue Sheng]

Well Tai Chi is your main style...It sounds like your body automatically defaults to Tai Chi Chuan. Well I think all you need from Wing Chun is to spar them. If your that skilled in Tai Chi you have the same things. You have softness and cirlce defenses. To turn off force and roll it away and neutralize it.

I choose Wing Chun because I have been doing for so long.

That is tight though. I wish I could spar with you on regular basis. That way I can have contact with a pretty skilled guy to harness my skill.

To be honest I fully believe he style that fits me best in Xingyiquan and possible yiquan. It is just that I have a whole lot more training in Yang Taijiquan and there are no xingyiquan sifus near me that have the same high level of knowledge about xingyiquan that my Yang sifu has about taijiquan. And there are absolutely NO Yiquan sifus anywhere near me.

Years ago I use to do a lot of cross style sparring. It is a great way to learn. However there are not that many people around anymore that are interested in sparing. They tend to be more interested in form.

[Xue Sheng]

Hey, thanks Xue! I realy have to take my time and read from this site. It looks great.


It is one of the better sites out there on Xingyiquan.

If you are interested you should go through the entire site it has a whole lot of information on things Xingyiquan

[Yoshiyahu]

Why do you feel Xing Yi is more of fit...Please explain?

Which style do you fight better with Xing Yi or Tai Chi...

As for the sparring situtation I understand many are going that route this day...



To be honest I fully believe he style that fits me best in Xingyiquan and possible yiquan. It is just that I have a whole lot more training in Yang Taijiquan and there are no xingyiquan sifus near me that have the same high level of knowledge about xingyiquan that my Yang sifu has about taijiquan. And there are absolutely NO Yiquan sifus anywhere near me.

Years ago I use to do a lot of cross style sparring. It is a great way to learn. However there are not that many people around anymore that are interested in sparing. They tend to be more interested in form.

[Xue Sheng]

Why do you feel Xing Yi is more of fit...Please explain?

Which style do you fight better with Xing Yi or Tai Chi...


To quote Bruce Lee from Tao of Jeet Kune Do (And the Buddhist or was it Taoist philosophy he took if from) What is, is



As for the sparring situtation I understand many are going that route this day...

That was about 15 years ago.

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay...I didnt understand...

Are you more comfortable using Tai Chi or Xing Yi?



To quote Bruce Lee from Tao of Jeet Kune Do (And the Buddhist or was it Taoist philosophy he took if from) What is, is



That was about 15 years ago.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3psYEPYaBo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eEogFdF_P8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&feature=related

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I have never flown like those guys.

I will admit if a teacher knows how to redirect your energy you will "fly back" but not as extreme as these guys. These guys look like over acting and only enforce the delusion.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Yes, I think suggestion is a huge part in this videos. Strongly evident in the last video! Not saying that this things don't exist to a certein degree but this is just rediculus! And is one of the reasons I asosiated Chi as mystical. So many videos like this on the net! But on the other hand I realy don't know what to think of a guy like that John Chang character that I posted a video of earlier in this thread. There are more videos of him if you search on youtube! Well, who knows...

[profesormental]

Greetings.

To me, Wing Chun is balanced, half internal, half External.

In general terms, to me, Internal methods are methods that train subtle movements that develop Fa Jin. Hard to see the benefits of particular training methods without a trained eye, and hard to see the reason for such powerful force and control over attackers.

External methods develop athleticism and conditioning. Easy to notice the benefits and power generation for techniques is dependent on this athleticism.

Hope this helps.

Juan M. Mercado

[Xue Sheng]

Okay...I didnt understand...

Are you more comfortable using Tai Chi or Xing Yi?

As "ALREADY STATED" My attacks appear to have been Xingyiquan or Sanda and all my defense appears to be Taijiquan.

So it would depend on what I was doing as to which I am more comfortable with. It just happens naturally and I was not aware of this until I returned to Wing Chun the last time and was working on apps.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Greetings.

To me, Wing Chun is balanced, half internal, half External.

In general terms, to me, Internal methods are methods that train subtle movements that develop Fa Jin. Hard to see the benefits of particular training methods without a trained eye, and hard to see the reason for such powerful force and control over attackers.

External methods develop athleticism and conditioning. Easy to notice the benefits and power generation for techniques is dependent on this athleticism.

Hope this helps.

Juan M. Mercado

I think I agree :) So if I understood you right, your definition of internal is structure, the internal contraction and such? If so I see things the same!

And to return to that video I posted in which the guy is forced to bounce like a lunatic by the means of Chi. I commented that I do belive this si possible to a certein degree becouse of the definition of internal that I seem to share with the Profesor. To elaborate: I have experienced similar effects ("subtle movements that develop Fa Jin") during Chi Sao or Tai Chi push hands with my WC instructor and am able to do them myself to a certein degree. The point is if the guy "has" the structure and uses it in a sudden burst of power to push you and you resist you will bounce similarly(but a lot less) than the guys in the video. And thats Fa Jing if I understand correctly, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

And for that, this would also be true: "Hard to see the benefits of particular training methods without a trained eye, and hard to see the reason for such powerful force and control over attackers". But this is basicly what people do when they do one inch punch or resist a lot of force with structure and so on.

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay I get it now...so your use to attacking with Xing Yi but defense is basically Tai Chi...Nice little Mix...excellent your a MMA fighter already.


I would love to see you spar...do you have a video?



As "ALREADY STATED" My attacks appear to have been Xingyiquan or Sanda and all my defense appears to be Taijiquan.

So it would depend on what I was doing as to which I am more comfortable with. It just happens naturally and I was not aware of this until I returned to Wing Chun the last time and was working on apps.

[Xue Sheng]

Okay I get it now...so your use to attacking with Xing Yi but defense is basically Tai Chi...Nice little Mix...excellent your a MMA fighter already.


I would love to see you spar...do you have a video?

Far from an MMA fighter, just an old beat up CMA guy. And no there are no videos. Nothing against MMA fighters, I have a lot of respect for thier dedication and training, but I am certainly not MMA.

Throughout Chinese MA history a multitude of CMA people have trained more than one style and they could still very easily be categorized in one style. A lot of Xingyi people trained Bagua and a lot of IMA people throughout Chinese history trained Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan.

Yang Luchan, the founder of Yang style trained Changquan first and Chen style second and then went off and claimed to have studied with Taoists and low and behold Yang Style Taijiquan was born.

I tend to classify myself as Taijiquan and since taijiquan tends not to attack as much as defend and in Xingyi attack is defense then if I am asked to attack, as my Wing Chun sifu did, it is only natural that is will come out as Xingyiquan. Read the books I suggested and it will be easier to understand.

[Yoshiyahu]

I understand what you mean Brother...Very interesting. So would you say there are some major similiarites between Wing Chun and Xing Yi Quan?



Far from an MMA fighter, just an old beat up CMA guy. And no there are no videos. Nothing against MMA fighters, I have a lot of respect for thier dedication and training, but I am certainly not MMA.

Throughout Chinese MA history a multitude of CMA people have trained more than one style and they could still very easily be categorized in one style. A lot of Xingyi people trained Bagua and a lot of IMA people throughout Chinese history trained Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan.

Yang Luchan, the founder of Yang style trained Changquan first and Chen style second and then went off and claimed to have studied with Taoists and low and behold Yang Style Taijiquan was born.

I tend to classify myself as Taijiquan and since taijiquan tends not to attack as much as defend and in Xingyi attack is defense then if I am asked to attack, as my Wing Chun sifu did, it is only natural that is will come out as Xingyiquan. Read the books I suggested and it will be easier to understand.

[Xue Sheng]

I understand what you mean Brother...Very interesting. So would you say there are some major similiarites between Wing Chun and Xing Yi Quan?

Yes and no.

No more than similarities between Wing Chun and any other CMA style, possibly less actually. They both like the centerline but they attack it differently the both come from China but Xingyiquan is decidedly Northern and Wing Chun is most likely Southern.

Xingyiquan attack and defense is the same thing and in Wing Chun that is not necessarily the case. Both are Martial arts but Xingyiquan was at one time taught to the Chinese military. Both are fairly linear but again they do not approach it the same and if you are talking upper levels of Shanxi style Xingyiquan you get into circle walking. Some styles of Xingyiquan train a rather amazing number of weapons other do not but as far as I know none train the butterfly knives of Wing Chun.

The Xingyiquan approach to the center and attack is much the same as a cavalry charge. Not so much stand there and more when you can or stand and fight but attack. It tends to be, in application, fairly relentless in attack.

But if I am to look at it form my training in Xingyiquan and compare it to the Wing Chun I trained I would have to say they are very different. So different that my Wing Chun sifu had no idea what it was but he did successfully stop it (but I have gone through this already someplace). Also the entire basic structure of Xingyiquan is the stance called Santi shi (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/pounding/threepoints01.gif)and Wing Chun does not train it nor does it put as much importance on training stances as Xingyiquan does. I have said this at leas twice to you and I will go for a third. If you want to get some idea of Xingyiquan go try standing in Santi for 5 minutes per side for a total of 10 minutes and then you need to understand that unless you can do that for 20 minutes per side for a total of 40 minutes you are not even a beginner by old China standards.

If you are looking for a link to IMA or another CMA for Wing Chun I suggest you don’t look to Xingyiquan. It is rather different for a CMA as compared even compared to other CMA styles and it is somewhat unique in its approach to fighting. I would venture a guess here that the only other style that would be similar to Xingyiquan would be Xinyiquan and I have had a couple Xinyiquan people tell me they are not the same. However it is likely that Xinyiquan is where Xingyiquan came from.


Read this page (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/) if you want to learn more about Xingyiquan

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Sounds like a cool art. Checked the net if theres any Xingyiquan here but nothing shows up... Would love to at least check it out though. Hey, do you mind explaining what Xinyiquan is?

[Xue Sheng]

Sounds like a cool art. Checked the net if theres any Xingyiquan here but nothing shows up... Would love to at least check it out though. Hey, do you mind explaining what Xinyiquan is?

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/

http://www.answers.com/topic/xingyiquan

Books
- The Xingyi Boxing Manual: Hebei Style's Five Principles and Seven Words by Jing Yunting
- Xing Yi Nei Gong: Xing Yi Health Maintenance and Internal Strength Development by Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell
- Xing Yi Quan Xue: The Study of Form-Mind Boxing by Sun Lu Tang
- Di Guoyong on Xingyiquan Vol.1: Five Element Foundation

Interview with Di Guoyong (http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/diguoyong.html)

Other (http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy.html)

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Thanks!

[Xue Sheng]

Gee, thanks... But I got an impression from your last post that Xingyiquan and Xinyiquan are not the same?! Or can I find info about Xinyiquan on that site too?



Was that sarcastic or something and I missed the joke?

The "other" link, that you may have missed since I did a bit of editing after my initial post talks about Xinyiquan as does this one
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/daihistory.html

Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kio3MhiAcy8

There is a lot of info on Xinyiquan out there if you look but since I do not train Xinyiquan I can't tell you much beyond it looks similar to Xingyiquan to me and Xingyiquan likley comes from it via Ji Jike and the few Xinyi people I talked to do not think they are the same.

And there was no sarcasm or a joke just what I have run into.


Oh and now your editing as I post :D

EDIT

There also use to be a Xinyi person on MT but I have not seen him post for a while now.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea the reason why I see them some what similiar WC and Xing Yi Quan is because the basic structure in the way the fight. All the forms of Xing Yi Quan seem to be alot more active than WC. But overall they tend to favor more than WC compared to Tai Chi fighting. But the reason why I say that is because once I saw a movie where a guy was using Xing Yi Quan. At first glance I thought he as doing a Modified version of WC. But later on I discovered it was not WC buy XYQ

Anyway. Wing Chun is actually from Northern Shaolin. But later on came to southern China after the expulsion of the boxers from the Northern part of Shaolin. I am paraphrasing here...The actual Info if you want I can pull up. But WC originated in North.

[Xue Sheng]

Yea the reason why I see them some what similiar WC and Xing Yi Quan is because the basic structure in the way the fight. All the forms of Xing Yi Quan seem to be alot more active than WC. But overall they tend to favor more than WC compared to Tai Chi fighting. But the reason why I say that is because once I saw a movie where a guy was using Xing Yi Quan. At first glance I thought he as doing a Modified version of WC. But later on I discovered it was not WC buy XYQ

watch the Jet Li movie "the one" at the end it is baguazhang vs Xingyiquan and it will give you sime idea as to xingyiquan on attack, just ignore the axe bits :D



Anyway. Wing Chun is actually from Northern Shaolin. But later on came to southern China after the expulsion of the boxers from the Northern part of Shaolin. I am paraphrasing here...The actual Info if you want I can pull up. But WC originated in North.

And Ip Chun is also saying he suspects that Wing Chun came from the North (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58670&highlight=wing+chun)as well, but not so much linking it to Shaolin.

[geezer]

watch the Jet Li movie "the one" at the end it is baguazhang vs Xingyiquan and it will give you sime idea as to xingyiquan on attack, just ignore the axe bits :D

...And Ip Chun is also saying he suspects that Wing Chun came from the North (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58670&highlight=wing+chun)as well, but not so much linking it to Shaolin.

Others have hypothesized that it came from the West along trade routes... From Szechuan (the legend or Ng Mui sojourning at Mt. Tai Leung) and may even have links to certain rare arts practiced near the Thai border (Lem Lung or "Flying Monkey"). In all probability, there are multiple sources contributing to Wing Chun/Tsun. But, IMHO its overall character seems to be shaped by the narrow bridge Southern Chinese styles of the region which resemble it in so many ways.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Xue concerning the movie The One.

My favorite scene is when he is practicing Hsing yi in the prison cell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3wJIWGspNk&feature=related

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea I love that movie....that fight scene between the two Law's was excellent...Also has any one see The Revenge of the Tai Chi Master...or Twin Warriors?

With Jet Li he does Tai Chi...

Also the Tai Chi Master has a fight scene of a guy doing Baguazhang and another guy doing Tai Chi Chaun.



Xue concerning the movie The One.

My favorite scene is when he is practicing Hsing yi in the prison cell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3wJIWGspNk&feature=related

[qwksilver61]

Jade Cloud,who do you study Wing Tsun with in the Miami area?

[Xue Sheng]

With Jet Li he does Tai Chi...


Yes...and no.

But interestingly enough one of the forms he is doing when he is allegedly figuring out Taiji comes from the old style Laojia Yilu I learned.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Jade Cloud,who do you study Wing Tsun with in the Miami area? I don't study Wing Chun or Wing Tsun.

My teacher did study it but as for his linerage in Wing Chun I don't know because I never asked being that I study Bagua,Xingyi,and Taiji.

Also I don't study here in Miami I go up to Ft.Lauderdale.

[Yoshiyahu]

Are Familiar with the fight scene where he uses some Tai Chi strikes and shoulder attacks?



Yes...and no.

But interestingly enough one of the forms he is doing when he is allegedly figuring out Taiji comes from the old style Laojia Yilu I learned.