This term seems to appear in the name or organization of TKD, Soo Bahk Do (http://www.soobahkdo.com/), Tang Soo Do (http://www.traininghalls.com/tsd/), and possibly other Korean systems, as well as on its own. What exactly does it mean or represent? I always thought it was a TKD substyle.

I saw the variant Mudokwan (http://www.mudokwan.com/) used for a Japanese martial arts school recently. The school teaches kendo (plus some iaido I think), judo, and jujitsu.

moo duk kwan literally means "school of martial virtue" it was developed by grandmaster hwang kee

Originally posted by Shinzu

moo duk kwan literally means "school of martial virtue" it was developed by grandmaster hwang kee

Does this mean it's a Tang Soo Do governing organization?

there are many different aspects of moo duk kwan. some masters have broken away from hwang kee's teachings but still call it moo duk kwan.

it is more of a system. tang soo do is the art but there are other sub styles that follow the moo duk kwan such as soo Bahk do, soo bahk ti, tang soo ki.

moo duk kwan is the system that grandmaster hwang kee developed to unite all tang soo do practitioners, so i wouldn't say it was "governing", but more an organization like other federations.

There is both a Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and a Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo. In the begining Hwang Kee's Tang Soo Do style was a part of the styles that later became Taekwondo.
1960 saw the Korean Tang Soo Do association and the Soo Bahk Do association join forces and became one organisation( the Korean Tang Soo Do Soo Bahk Do association) lead by Hwang Kee to this day. This was for some years the leading organisation of the styles that would later became the taekwondo style. When General Choi started the International Taekwondo Federation in 1955 Hwang Kee refused to change his style to ITF-Taekwondo and pulled away. Most of his black belt students first went with him , but later when the Korean govement started to send TKD-instructors out to the whole wide world it was only the instructors that was members of the ITF that was allowed to travel out of Korean .
So many of Hwang Kee's black belt instructors did join the ITF and those instructors are the ones that use (or at least started the use of. ) of Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo.
Take care
Zeke
:cool: :asian:

thanx for the knowledge zeke. i am not too familiar with taekwondo but i am always up for learning something about everything:)

That's the way to learn:cool:
The only reason I know is because my first instructor - Master Choi Kyoung An - took that road . So I gained my first black belt in both Tang Soo Do and ITF-Taekwondo , and even though the Danish TKD Federation later started doing the WTF-Taekwondo style, I have always been gratefull that I've had a dual background in styles that are more martial arts than martial sports.
Take care
Zeke

i happened upon the MDK by accident. i was studing shotokan in new york and when i moved to pa there were no japanese schools to be found.

someone had suggested tang soo do and to my surprise it was very similar to shotokan. so here i am three years later and alot wiser and knowledgeable about my style and the martial arts.

i don't regret it at all. i love the art i study and am grateful for the instructors who have helped me in the past and present.

Shinzu, in what ways would you say that Shotokan is superior to TSD and vice versa?

Shinzu, in what ways would you say that Shotokan is superior to TSD and vice versa?


well they are amost exactly the same if you can believe it. TSD's kicks differ in that they are much higher. shotokan's stances are lower and there are more "slower focus" movements during their forms.

TSD has better weapons forms from what i can see. i'm not sure which i like better or which is the better style. i was taught shotokan originally and i think i would still be in it if there was a school near by. but then again i do love TSD so i would be missing a big part there. i guess the experience with both styles has been a blessing for me.

i would say they are both excellent styles with much knowledge to gain from each.

From whatI understand, what has been posted in this thread is all pretty accurate.

Just to add:

Originally, as with all the Kwans, the Moo Duk Kwan (Martial Virtue Institute) referred to a school, or was used as the collective group of schools under Hwang Kee.

It was meant to be used as the name of the place, not the style.

At that time, the style names between the Kwans varied, but the Moo Duk Kwan practiced what today is Tang Soo Do. (the names Soo Bahk Do and Soo Bahk Ki were also used.)

Moo Duk Kwan has evolved today to become the name of a style, but originally it was the name of a school. So any system using Moo Duk Kwan today can in some way trace its roots back to Hwang Kee.

Originally posted by TangSooGuy

It was meant to be used as the name of the place, not the style.

Aha! This happened with Balintawak Escrima (practiced on Balintatawak St.).


Moo Duk Kwan has evolved today to become the name of a style

Thanks for the information. Just to be clear--do you mean a separate style or just a substyle of TSD?

Good question- arguments could probably made for both.

For the most part. TSD and Moo Duk Kwan are used interchangably in the circles I have been in.

However, just as TKD and TSD, Hwa Rang Do, Soo Bahk Do, etc, have evolved into different styles, there would surely be some out there who claim Moo Duk Kwan as a separate style.

To me, it is hard to justify this, however, since Hwang kee founded both modern Tang Soo Do and the Moo Duk Kwan.

Therefore, most often when Moo Duk Kwan is referred to as the name of an art, it is Tang Soo Do.

There are some stylists who have said that Moo Duk Kwan is going back to the "roots" of Tang Soo Do, but i'm not sure exactly what that means.

To say Moo Duk Kwan is a substyle of TSD is not entirely accurate, but neither is calling it a separate system.

Well, I've managed to confuse myself. :(

Ok, back on track- If I were to try to classify it, I would say that MDK is a SYSTEM of TSD.

To me, each organization develops its own system of training in the art, but this doesn't make it a different art.

I hope that makes sense, sometimes I talk myself in circles when I'm typing. I'm glad I'm more coherent in front of a class :D

There are some stylists who have said that Moo Duk Kwan is going back to the "roots" of Tang Soo Do, but i'm not sure exactly what that means.


the reason people say this is because TSD traces it's roots back to hwang kee, who created the MDK. some schools do not follow the teachings of hwang kee, therefore seperating themselves from the MDK.

this is why some schools choose the midnight blue belt and others choose the black. hwang kee developed the midnight blue belt to separate the MDK from the "normal" black belt use.

I do agree with what has been said so far in this thread. Regarding the names of the schools and styles here is a little more infomation
When the Japanese pulled out of Korea - August 1945 - there were 5 major schools (Kwans) in Korea:
1.) Moo Duk Kwan in Seoul , lead by Hwang Kee
2.) Yon Moo Kwan in Seoul , lead by Chun Sang Sup
3.) YMCA Kwon Pup in Seoul , lead by Pyong In Yuk
4.) Chung Do Kwan in Seoul , lead by Won Kuk Lee
5.) Song Moo Kwan in Kai Sung , lead by No Byong Jik
These were schools not styles, that could be said to be in the "Karate-family" for lag of a better word . Of course Korea had other styles of martial arts , but these were the ones that both TSD and TKD were to use as their fundation. Taekwondo has even gone so far as saying that the art of Taekwondo is build on (these) 5 arts.
By the start of the Korea war (June 1950) more schools and Styles/organisation had come foreward. This is a list of the major ones:
1.)The school of Moo Duk Kwan who did the style of Moo Duk Kwan ,although Hwang Kee by now had started to call the style Tang Soo Do - the china hand - in homage to where he did learn the base of his style (And no it's not chinese in its foundation, but thats another story:D )
2.)The school of Ji Do Kwan who did the style(s) of Ji Do Kwan , Yon Moo Kwan and Han Moo Kwan
3.)The school of Chang Moo Kwan who did the style(s) of Kang Duk Won , Kang Moo Kwan and Cheong Do Kwan
4.)The school of Chung Do Kwan who did the style(s) of Chong Do Kwan , Choong Kyong Kwan , Kuk Moo Kwan and O Do Kwan
5.) The school of Song Moo Kwan who did the style of Song Moo Kwan .
Now when I say School I mean Style and/or federation depending on the number of styles being practised and they all had at least some comon ground with the japanese/okinawa karate styles in the way they did their basics .
Hope this helps.
Take care
Zeke


:cool: :asian:

excellent info zeke. thanx!

Shinzu,

This might be slightly off topic, but here goes:

I noticed that you took Shotokan in NY. Where abouts did you live/take Shotokan?

Anyway, I am the opposite of you. I started in TSD in NJ, but I moved to NY (Rochester area). There's no TSD schools here (bummer).

I'm looking to join a Shotokan school (since I found out that it's very similar to TSD). What do you think?

hey karatekid :)

i think shotokan is the best "brother" style to TSD. if you are uable to find a TSD school, shotokan is your best bet. some of the forms have different names but they are all basically the same (with minor adjustments).

i trained in queens new york under sensei toyotaro miyazaki. i was with the u.s. shotokai.

what level are you in TSD?

i never realized they were so similar. in fact before i started TSD i never even heard of it. i was very pleased that i could continue to practice and study the art i love.

TANG SOO!

Hiya Shinzu.

I got to 5th gup blue belt in TSD. My last form was Pyung ahn sam dan. I moved on the day of my brown belt test, so I never tested for it :(

I miss TSD.

Feel free to send a private message so we can talk TSD.

Laurie

hey laurie :)

pyung ahn samdan = hein sandan i shotokan. you shouldnt have any trouble switching styles.

if you want to email me you can get it off my profile. im always up for TSD chat :)

Originally posted by Shinzu

im always up for TSD chat

Don't forget that we have an entire Tang Soo Do forum (http://www.martialtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=62) here!

Oh yea. I forgot :shrug: Sorry.

Originally posted by karatekid1975

Oh yea. I forgot :shrug: Sorry.

No worries!

Tang Soo Do was one of the generic names used to describe the karate and chuan-fa taught in Korea following WWII. They also used "Kong Soo Do."

There were five major schools of "Tang Soo Do" or "Kong Soo Do," following WWII:

1. Chi Do Kwan
2. Chang Moo Kwan
3. Moo Do Kwan
4. Song Moo Kwan
5. Chung Do Kwan


Sometime later, to gain soom national prestige from their history, someone in Korea decided to call their art Subak Do, which refers to the art practiced by the Hwarang-do "Flowering Youth" from the Silla Dynasty. It may have been Hwang Kee that re-used that name.

Hwang Kee didn't create Tang Soo Do, but was one of the only Korean Masters to resist adopting the name "Taekwondo," and instead kept the name, "Tang Soo Do," to describe his art.

R. McLain

Just like the history of Tang Soo Do is completely understood, neither is the Moo Duk Kwan.

Hwang Kee developed the Moo Duk Kwan as his school. Many TSD and TKD still use the term Moo Duk Kwan, even though they are not, nor have ever been affilitated with Hwang Kee's orginization. Even though it originated from the Moo Duk Kwan (school) at one time, and Hwang Kee was the instructor.

Some time ago, there was a controversy about Hwang Kee trying to join the Tae Kwon Do movement in Korea, or them trying to get him to unite with them... EIther way, Around that time, Hwang Kee decided not to join Choi and the others and created Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. Changing Tang Soo Do (the generic name of the system) to its more original style name of Soo Bahk Do, but keeping the Moo Duk Kwan (school) name. To this day, many 'non affiliated schools' (kwans) use the moo duk kwan name, without permission. Tang Soo Do is a non-copywrited name which is free to put on any school, but the Moo Duk Kwan and Soo Bahk Do are actually copywrited.

Some believe it is false advertising to use the moo duk kwan name in TSD or TKD, if your not affiliated with GM Kee. I think the average person wouldn't know. or even care.

agreed. my school uses MDK because we are directly associated with hwang kee. infact my instructors have their certificates signed by him.

Now, the recent history of TKD and TSD tends to get a bit fuzzy and changes somewhat depending on which artists in which style you ask, but I've read that the Chung Do Kwan (the first kwan to be founded) originally called their style "Tae Soo Do." Most of the masters who went off to found their own kwans studied there under Won Kuk Lee (some after having learned in Okinawa), because it was the only place they could study martial arts legally in Korea during the Japanese occupation (at least, as of 1944 anyways).

Now, I'm curious: I practice the Chung Do Kwan style of TKD, and I've discovered that our forms are very closely related to the forms practiced in TSD (and I know that most of the forms came from Okinawa, though some really originated in China). My question: Did Hwang Kee study at the Chung Do Kwan?

My instructor's instructor is Ahn Kyung Won. If you look in the book written by Kang Uk Lee (Tang Soo Do) his name is in there (the Moo Duk Kwan family tree part). His instructor trained under Hwang Kee. How he (Ahn Kyung Won) got to be Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan is beyond me. But we do the Moo Duk Kwan forms at black belt and above (we do Taeguks for color belts).

I thought this was insteresting. I found this out last thursday. I got the student manual tonight and yep, that was in there.

Zepp

I believe Tae Soo Do was the name the united Kwans first thought of using for TKD. I have also read that Hwang Kee did indeed train with the Chung Do Kwan(although only an honorary member) as well as a lot of the other Kwans, he was reportedly good friends with some of the Okanawan and Japanese masters like Gogen Miyagi of Goju Ryu.

The TSD forms(bar the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro Hyung) are practiced by many different styles of Karate. It would make sense to say that the original Kwan leaders would have learned and taken these forms back from Japan/Okinawa and used them in thier curriculum until they developed thier own. I have seen some of the ITF hyung and they seem to be heavily infuenced by the Pinans/Bassia/Naihanchi etc.

I would be very interested to hear what Hyung you practice, I have heard that Chung do Kwan is very similar to TSD.

Yossarian75,

I actually started a thread on Chung Do Kwan's forms in this forum some time ago. As it turns out, our forms are almost the same as those practiced in TSD. We use different names for some them, there are some differences in the moves, and we have a few less of them, but you'd probably recognize them all.

You definitely know about the Pyong an's. I'm told our white belt forms, Kukmu 1 and 2, were invented by our grandmaster, but they still resemble forms I've seen in TSD. At brown belt ( one less than black) we learn Chul gi 1 and Pal Sek (you call it Bassai?). At first dan, I'm working on Ship su and Chul gi 2. At 2nd dan, there's this cool sword form that no longer has a sword in it we call Yan bi. Sound familiar?

Zepp

They are the same hyung and are practiced in the same order and belt level as in my school. Im even working on the same hyung as you at the moment, Sip Soo and Naihanchi e dan. I found Sip Soo quite hard to start with, lots of unfaliliar moves.

Ive not heard of your swordless sword form before, sounds intersting though. We learn a sword form at 2nd dan called Yong Hyung which I believe comes from Kuk Sool Won.

Originally posted by Yossarian75
Ive not heard of your swordless sword form before, sounds intersting though. We learn a sword form at 2nd dan called Yong Hyung which I believe comes from Kuk Sool Won.

Probably variations of the same form. I don't practice that one yet, but since there are some pretty distinct moves, I could tell you if it's the same if I saw a video, or pictures. Maybe I can find some pictures of ours to show you.

Yeah, Sip soo/Ship su can really be a royal *****, can't it? Especially those first moves. I think I'm starting to get it down though.

sip soo is a bit different, but it's a nice form. some very detailed and complex moves involved.

I amalso a practitioner of a style descended from Chung Do Kwan, and know the swordless form you're talking about. We spell it Yun Be, but it's the same thing. The name means "Flying Swallow," or along those lines, for the various dips and the large jump towards the end.

I believe in TSD the form is called either Empi or Wansu, and is a 4th or 5th dan form. The form starts with the right hand closed in a fist chambered at the left hip "holding" a sword, left hand open and placed against the right knuckles.

I don't know that the form was ever actually designed to be a sword form, though; at least, I can find no mention of it dating back to Okinawa when it came from China. The applications for a sword are definitely there, though.

Nathan

Originally posted by aricept
I amalso a practitioner of a style descended from Chung Do Kwan, and know the swordless form you're talking about. We spell it Yun Be, but it's the same thing. The name means "Flying Swallow," or along those lines, for the various dips and the large jump towards the end.

I believe in TSD the form is called either Empi or Wansu, and is a 4th or 5th dan form. The form starts with the right hand closed in a fist chambered at the left hip "holding" a sword, left hand open and placed against the right knuckles.

That's the one. For us it's a 2nd dan form. When finally I learn it, I'd like to try it with a fencing sabre or something and see if it's really applicable to using a sword. But I've got other things to focus on in my training before then.

aricept,
What's the name of your style?

Ah I know of Wansu or Wangshu as we call it, we learn that at third or fourth dan i think. Our sword forms are very different to Wangshu, Yong Hyung opens with three horizontal slashes each one lower than the last until you are crouching. Do you practice weapons in Chung Do Kwan? TSD generally has Bong and Sword Hyung(depending on the association) we practice Nunchuka and Knife also, great fun.

No, I'm afraid we don't train with weapons in Chung Do Kwan. At least, it's not part of the usual training. There may be groups of us that do somewhere out there.

I've found that FMA complement our style quite nicely though.

Heres a lil history paper I wrote a while back ago , you guys might like :


Tang Soo Do :
The Truth
By David E. Somers

Ever since I was a Teenager when I bought a Shotokan
book I have noticed a striking simialarity between the
Kata of Shotokan , and the Tang Soo Do Hyung . That book
has lead me into much confusion at first , but has lead
me to the research of this article .

The True Founder of Tang Soo Do :
The name Tang Soo Do was first used in Korea by Chung Do
Kwan founder Won Kuk Lee , who studied with Shotokan
founder Gichin Funakoshi . Hwang Kee didnt use the name till
a few years later .


Grandmaster Hwang Kee was born
on Nov.9 , 1914 , and was given the birth name of Tae Nam ,
which means Star Boy . We have heard that he mastered Tae Kyon
& Subahk at an early age , but has never trained in either
one of these arts under any instructor . As a young boy
Kee seen several thugs trying to jump a man , who used
Tae Kyon to defend himself , he later approached this man ,
requesting to train with him , and was turned away , because
of his young age . So Hwang spied on him , to learn his
tae Kyon methods , and there is no record of him training in
Subahk , which was a form of wrestling taught to the Hwa Rang .
I have never seen any type of wrestling in Tang Soo Do .

So where did he get those forms from ?
He did train with Chung Do Kwan founder Lee Won kuk for a
short time , but no one really knows for how long or if any
rank was ever awarded to him , but there is a rumor that he
recieved a 6th gup from Lee Won Kuk ; But , he also states that
he learned Okinawan Karate from books , while working at the
railroad in Manchuria .

The Tang Method:
So what is it ? Where did he learn it , and from whom ?
Hwang Kee's only real training took place when he went to
Manchuria in 1936 for a period of a year , where he studied
Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan under Yang Kuk Jin , he then returned
to korea in 1937 . He did return for a short visit in 1941
for a short time , less then a year .

The Moo Duk kwan :
In 1945 Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan ( Meaning : Institute of
Martial Virtue ) originally calling the art he taught Hwa Soo Do ,
meaning flowering hand way , but he had to close his Dojang twice ,
due to the fact that he could not get any student's to train ,
because no one knew what Hwa Soo Do was .

It wasnt till he met with Won Kuk Lee
& Chan Sang Sup ( Ji Do Kwan ) , in 1947 , when they suggested
that he should use the term Tang Soo Do , and at that point
it was then that he would begin to have a following ; and
in September 1953 Hwang Kee formed the Korea Tang Soo Do
Association . Then in December 1953 , tried to join the
Korean Athletic Association , but was unsuccessful .
Then in June 1960 The Korea Tang Soo Do association was
renamed The Korea Soo Bahk Do Association .

The Split :
In March 1965 , The korea Soo Bahk Do Association attempted
to join The Korea Tae Kwon Do Association , but was unsuccessful .
After this happened a large majority had left Hwang kee's
leadership , and joined the Korea Tae Kwon Do Association.
In April of 1965 the Moo Duk Kwan was finally accepted ,
and Kang Ik Lee became the President of The Tae Kwon Do
Moo Duk Kwan .Then Chong Soo Hong became president , followed
by In Seok Kim , then Nam Do Choi . The Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk
Kwan was further divided when Chong Soo Hong broke off ,
and created the Moo Duk Hae , and Chun Jae Kyu became it's
second president .

The new forms :
It wasnt untill 1957 , that Kee found a copy of the
classical Military text , The Moo Yea Dobo Tongji ,
and began translating it , then in the 1970's he began
creating the Chil Sung Hyung's , Hwa Sun , and later
the Yuk Ro's with what he learned in this book , and
the Yang style Tai Chi Chuan that he had learned from
Yang Kuk Jin years earlier .

The formation of Soo Bahk Do :
Due to the fact that several of Hwang Kee's senior students
broke off , and created their own associations , The United
States Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation officially changed
their name to The United States Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan
Federation on the date of August 3 , 1996 to seperate itself
from other Tang Soo Do organizations .


On Sat July 13th , 2002 Grandmaster Hwang Kee passed away ,
leaving his system to his son Master H.C.Hwang . He has influenced
thousands , if not millions of people in the martial arts .
It was a tragic day in to the followers of his art , and a loss
felt by many people the world over , but his art will be
passed on by many of his followers as a reminder of his mark on
this world .

Originally posted by Zepp
That's the one. For us it's a 2nd dan form. When finally I learn it, I'd like to try it with a fencing sabre or something and see if it's really applicable to using a sword. But I've got other things to focus on in my training before then.

aricept,
What's the name of your style?

I was offered the chance to learn it to test for my 1st dan, but chose another form instead - I'll wait on the jump. :)

Style name? I would respond Chung Do Kwan. We can trace our roots back to Jhoon Rhee - the man we consider the "founder" of our style was the American who brought Rhee to the states, Atlee Chittim. We call him the founder because when Rhee switched to the ITF, Chittim continued to do what he was originally taught.

We've also borrowed a couple of forms from close association with other styles. For instance, Chittim was close with Robert Trias, so we do a version of the Goju-Shorei form Gopaisho. So we aren't really "pure" Chung Do Kwan.

Originally posted by aricept
Style name? I would respond Chung Do Kwan. We can trace our roots back to Jhoon Rhee - the man we consider the "founder" of our style was the American who brought Rhee to the states, Atlee Chittim. We call him the founder because when Rhee switched to the ITF, Chittim continued to do what he was originally taught.

We've also borrowed a couple of forms from close association with other styles. For instance, Chittim was close with Robert Trias, so we do a version of the Goju-Shorei form Gopaisho. So we aren't really "pure" Chung Do Kwan.

Interesting. Do you happen to know what year Jhoon Rhee came to the US?

(I apologize to the TSD people for taking this thread off topic.)

Does he have his own style? I thought he still did TKD.

Sorry aricept, but I just couldn't wait for your reply. ;)

I found a website that answered my own question. He came here in 1956.

http://www.masterrhee.com/

In response to arnisador's question: Jhoon Rhee teaches TKD. However, it seems as though he has become WTF affiliated, which would mean that the style of TKD he teaches would have moved away from the Chung Do Kwan style of TKD that aricept and I are familiar with.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Zepp
Sorry aricept, but I just couldn't wait for your reply. ;)

I found a website that answered my own question. He came here in 1956.

http://www.masterrhee.com/

In response to arnisador's question: Jhoon Rhee teaches TKD. However, it seems as though he has become WTF affiliated, which would mean that the style of TKD he teaches would have moved away from the Chung Do Kwan style of TKD that aricept and I are familiar with.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

He actually came over in 1955, but had to return to Korea shortly afterwards to do some time in the military, then came back in '56.

Brief history of Rhee, as I understand it: He originally taught Chung Do Kwan - the pyong an set, chul-gi, yun-be, etc. Then at some point General Choi, founder of the ITF visited him and told him the things that were going on in Korea - namely, the switch to calling the art Tae Kwon Do, and the new pattern set he had developed, the Chang Hon set. So Rhee started teaching ITF Tae Kwon Do.

Later Rhee formed his own style, which he calls the "Jhoon Rhee System of Tae Kwon Do." Has its own pattern set, I'm given to understand. The first pattern is called Jayoo, and means "freedom".

That's what I've been able to figure out from my research, anyway. :)