Reality

[muayThaiPerson]

http://www.jtcf.org.uk/images/Intercept-and-punch.jpg

Lets be serious, look at this "techinque", no one punches like that!

http://www.jtcf.org.uk/images/Lift-Hands-Low-Kick.jpg

or that

.http://www.lb.emb-japan.go.jp/activities/karate.jpg

or that. I want to know, REALLY, if any of you have found the punch defense techniques you learned as practical. Be Serious. from what ive seen, i have never seen anything like this used anywhere except a dojo.

Punch defense techinques are a bunch of crap. The only thing useful is to block, dodge, or parry. Theres is no such thing as technique to defend against a punch!:shrug:

[pesilat]

Huh.

In the first and second pics, I get the impression that the attacker's body position has nothing to do with how he punched. His position is in relationship to the technique that's been/being done on him by the defender.

In the first picture, he's been hit. His back hand is down, I would assume, for the benefit of the picture so the viewer can see where he's getting hit.

In the second picture, the attacker's back is arched because the defender is hyperextending the attacker's arm.

I don't know where the pics came from, but when looking at pics of techniques, it should always be remembered that they're posed. Ranges and positions tend to be exaggerated so the viewer can get some idea of what's happening.

As far as the third pic ... well, someone trained in that system may, in fact, punch that way ;)

As far as defense techniques against a punch ... a block, dodge, or parry is a defense technique, right?

Not quite sure what the point of your post is, but that's my 2 cents :D

Mike

[Jester]

I agree with pesilat, the defence techniques shown have the potential to be used against any punch no matter how badly or well they are thrown.

The thing I have found is that in most dojo's these techniques are not trained to the level of real life e.g right now lets get someone really trying to knock your head off and you do something about it.

Most of the time people half heartedly place their hand out in the air, let the person perform his block then hang around for however long it takes to counter.

As with all things in the martial arts it simply depends how you train, myself and my little band of nutters always try and develop our defence techniques from basic implementation right up to real life (or as close to real life as possible). What you usually find is the simpler techniques are the ones that work best, we try to avoid some of the more dramatic techniques.

But I do feel confident that in a real life situation if I was able to remain calm and keep my head I could use the techniques that we develop.

[Aegis]

In the secnd pic, the defender looks like he's seriously off balance....

[Phil Elmore]

Still photos are often not a good means of determining the viability of a technique, especially if the photo was posed (as photos of this nature often must be to capture what is going on).

[Marginal]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson


http://www.lb.emb-japan.go.jp/activities/karate.jpg

Punch defense techinques are a bunch of crap. The only thing useful is to block, dodge, or parry. Theres is no such thing as technique to defend against a punch!:shrug:

Not directly related to your karate pic, but I did deflect multiple generic (haymaker) punches from an aquiantence of mine in 6th grade using a series of outer forearm blocks. Just kinda windmilled one after another in a vague imitation of the Shudokan blocks my sister was learning at the time. (Hence the loose terminolgy in the above description...)

Lately I just tend to adopt more of a boxer's stance. Can't keep up with punch flurries very well using traditional blocks. (Dunno if that's a limitation of the blocks or if it's just that I've only been training for about a year though.)

[Phil Elmore]

Punch defense techinques are a bunch of crap. The only thing useful is to block, dodge, or parry. Theres is no such thing as technique to defend against a punch!

Wouldn't that be the definition of a block, dodge, or parry?

Frankly, the post that started this thread strikes me as a lot of heavy-handed and unnecessary blustering.

[Jester]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sharp Phil
[B]Wouldn't that be the definition of a block, dodge, or parry?


Yeah I very much like the "there's no such thing as a technique that defends against a punch"

Does that mean all us martial artists should give up and accept the fact that we're gunna get punched in the nose and there's nothing we can do about it

giggle

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Aegis
In the secnd pic, the defender looks like he's seriously off balance....

I'd probably be off balance, too, if someone were hyperextending my arm and kicking me in the knee :)

Mike

[Aegis]

Lol!

I meant the other guy.

[James Kovacich]

I think it would be more appropriate to give the link to where the pics came from so that we could tell what we are really looking at.

I have pics "posed" pics on my site which is a work in progress.

this is what it reads:
"Also don't be fooled by the pictures. They are "POSED" techniques for demonstration purposes to give you an understanding of what we practice, teach and represent."

I'd be a bit pissed if someone took my pics and did that to me.

muayThaiPerson, I know you we're trying to make a point on how people punch but at the same time you're saying the guy aint squat and he's left defenseless without explanation.

I can describe techniques and even show a picture but without actually seeing the technique it dosen't prove much.:asian:

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Aegis
Lol!

I meant the other guy.

LOL. Well, in that case, I give the benefit of the doubt to the guy and assume that his instability is due to the exaggeration of the pose to show what's happening. Can't really tell much from a still photo.

Heck, can't tell much from video. It's a 2D representation of 3D action. Perspective gets distorted and it's hard to see any kind of subtleties. In a still photo, it's even worse.

Mike

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Marginal
Not directly related to your karate pic, but I did deflect multiple generic (haymaker) punches from an aquiantence of mine in 6th grade using a series of outer forearm blocks. Just kinda windmilled one after another in a vague imitation of the Shudokan blocks my sister was learning at the time. (Hence the loose terminolgy in the above description...)

Lately I just tend to adopt more of a boxer's stance. Can't keep up with punch flurries very well using traditional blocks. (Dunno if that's a limitation of the blocks or if it's just that I've only been training for about a year though.)

in 6th grade? LMAO! Must be some real hard fought battles then ! :D

[MartialArtist]

You have to look at the context.

In the first picture, I dunno what is going on... The instructor's wrist looks like it's bent but it might just be the picture. If the instructor really does punch like that with the wrist collapsed a bit, get out of there. You'll just end up spraining your wrist (which is common in boxing, muay thai, and any other art). Why do you think athletic tape is used? There are a multiple reasons, but mostly the same reasons many Olympic lifters use tape when training, or football players taping their ankle.

Well muay thai, I agree. Simple blocks. Simple blocks, parries, and lots of movement in order to dodge in a street fight. However, other moves can be used in a street fight. You can duck the punch and go for a take-down but you might consider that dodging which it is. I've seen people who've been locked up real bad once they punched. It happens all the time. Someone dodges it or blocks it then locks it up. But it goes with dodging and blocking. Some people are quick enough to grab an arm while they're punching. They all go (both striking and grappling) with the basic concepts of blocking, parrying, and dodging.

but again, pictures say a lot of things. The wrong angle, wrong lighting, wrong timing = just looks bad.

And some techniques can't be done slowly or held up right in the middle, because it looks bad then too.

[muayThaiPerson]

Every technique that requires more than a second is all theory crap. Except in grappling arts. No one will hang in the air for a second to let you do you stuff. And in the pics, if they were going fast, the camera wouldnt be able to capture them that good.

Martial Arts techniques are a waste of time. Serious

[pesilat]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
And in the pics, if they were going fast, the camera wouldnt be able to capture them that good.

That's part of the point that we've all been making about using the pictures as some sort of "don't do this" statement. They're posed. It's virtually impossible to tell from those pictures whether there is any real skill in the people or not.

For all we know, the instructor was specifically saying, "This is what not to do." But even if it's not, it's completely impossible to tell if he's any good or bad, or if his techniques are any good or bad from those pics.



Every technique that requires more than a second is all theory crap. Except in grappling arts. No one will hang in the air for a second to let you do you stuff.

...


Martial Arts techniques are a waste of time. Serious

I've been involved in the MA for quite a while and I've never seen a technique that takes more than a second. Combinations of techniques, sure. But that's a whole different discussion.

As far as the guy "hanging in the air for a second to let you do stuff." You've got a perception problem. That's a training method. He's acting like bag or a mook jong (Wing Chun dummy) for you to develop proper form. That's the bottom of the ladder. The most basic training method out there except punching the air (and that's a whole different discussion, too).

Of course no one's going to stand there and let you do stuff in reality. That's not what it's about.

Training should be a progression. You start with slow motion and static postures so the student can see what's going on and can ingrain the movements into his/her body and the principles into his/her mind. Then you progressively speed up and add more resistance until, voila, the students are sparring.

If you don't start there, then, I guarantee, you'll end up with students who can punch and kick and fight ... but all they're really doing is flailing with a little more than average precision/timing.

By developing the attributes, you end up with someone who can move faster (through economy of motion) and hit harder (through proper body mechanics) than someone who just flails.

Both methods are effective, sure. And, if someone needs to learn to fight effectively in a short amount of time, then put on the gloves and start swinging. But in the long run, the person who takes his/her time and patiently develops his/her tools will have the advantage.

Personally, I like to try to take a path between these two extremes. I like to try to give my students material they can use tomorrow, if need be. While also giving them developmental material that will, in the long run, make them even better.

Mike

[Phil Elmore]

Martial Arts techniques are a waste of time. Serious


Oh, okay, now I get it. You're a troll. Okay, we're done here.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by pesilat
That's part of the point that we've all been making about using the pictures as some sort of "don't do this" statement. They're posed. It's virtually impossible to tell from those pictures whether there is any real skill in the people or not.

For all we know, the instructor was specifically saying, "This is what not to do." But even if it's not, it's completely impossible to tell if he's any good or bad, or if his techniques are any good or bad from those pics.



I've been involved in the MA for quite a while and I've never seen a technique that takes more than a second. Combinations of techniques, sure. But that's a whole different discussion.

As far as the guy "hanging in the air for a second to let you do stuff." You've got a perception problem. That's a training method. He's acting like bag or a mook jong (Wing Chun dummy) for you to develop proper form. That's the bottom of the ladder. The most basic training method out there except punching the air (and that's a whole different discussion, too).

Of course no one's going to stand there and let you do stuff in reality. That's not what it's about.

Training should be a progression. You start with slow motion and static postures so the student can see what's going on and can ingrain the movements into his/her body and the principles into his/her mind. Then you progressively speed up and add more resistance until, voila, the students are sparring.

If you don't start there, then, I guarantee, you'll end up with students who can punch and kick and fight ... but all they're really doing is flailing with a little more than average precision/timing.

By developing the attributes, you end up with someone who can move faster (through economy of motion) and hit harder (through proper body mechanics) than someone who just flails.

Both methods are effective, sure. And, if someone needs to learn to fight effectively in a short amount of time, then put on the gloves and start swinging. But in the long run, the person who takes his/her time and patiently develops his/her tools will have the advantage.

Personally, I like to try to take a path between these two extremes. I like to try to give my students material they can use tomorrow, if need be. While also giving them developmental material that will, in the long run, make them even better.

Mike

Pesilat, basically posted what I wanted too.

I know it sounds lame :(

The(any) techniques are to be used against commited punches. Timing is an issue, and playing or sparring helps you get the feel for when Reality will hit you. :D, Yet if you start full speed the student will never learn. Yet if you never increase the student may not develope the timing. Then again there muscle memory may kick in with the treat and they may respond just fine.


Just my thoughts.


************************************************** **

muayThaiPerson

Martial Arts techniques are a waste of time. Serious

Since you said serious, without a smiley to imply sarcasm, then why do you train? Is it semantics, that the art/style you study is real fighting and the rest are not and there for a Martial Art?

I am real curious on this opinion.

[Marginal]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
in 6th grade? LMAO! Must be some real hard fought battles then ! :D Wicked hard. That one ended when one punch slipped through and bounced off my breastbone. No damage, but it seemed to satisfy his uh... Bloodlust?

:D

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Every technique that requires more than a second is all theory crap. Except in grappling arts. No one will hang in the air for a second to let you do you stuff. And in the pics, if they were going fast, the camera wouldnt be able to capture them that good.

Martial Arts techniques are a waste of time. Serious

The first part has some truth to it. That is why people are telling you that still photos do not tell you the whole picture. What you see as eternityin the photo may indeed only exists in less than a second. You may get punched, kicked and the attacking limbs are withdrawn already, before you even ready to parry. Trained strikers can throw out 8-10 punches in 1 second!

Granted, those pics really are not the tell-all of striking techniques. If anything, they probably only show that THOSE people in the pics SUCK. lol


The second part "..Martial Arts techniques are a waste of time. Serious..." Hmmm..... why don't you tell that to your Muay Thai instructor/s the next time you go to class? ;) LOL Tell them that their techniques are a waste of time and you don't need jack s%$# from them. lol

[muayThaiPerson]

What I meant by techniques was "if this happens, then do this.." type of technique. Techniques such as striking techinues, and blocking/parrying/dodging, and takedowns are not what i meant.

[vincefuess]

I have a saying that applies to many martial arts and artists:

"Don't get so involved analyzing the ladder that you forget about the roof."

I agree that most defenses as taught at beginning levels of virtually ANY martial art are way too mechanical and rigid to be effective. If you notice any adept fighter (again from virtually any martial art) dealing with punching attack tends to act and react like a boxer (I mean they DO have the market cornered on punching techniques and strategies). Parries, and duck/bob/weave approaches do tend to work best against a puncher. Like any successful TECHNIQUE, the A + B = C formula is BS. This is true of any type of attack. "Traditional" martial arts seem to the most guilty of teaching the 1-2-3 approach, even if it is just a stepping stone to a more dynamic, fluid approach.

I see techniques in magazines and books all the time that are total BS. Being a successful fighter is WAY more than technique- timing, rhythm, perception, reaction, accuracy, etc... ALL of these elements come into play.

I agree with your statement, however, that no ONE WAY technique will ever be successful.

[muayThaiPerson]

I was fighting the other day and I never expected to react like a boxer. However I did, I was ducking and doing all these upper body movements. I almost forgot about parry and kick and all those sequences

[ace]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
http://www.jtcf.org.uk/images/Intercept-and-punch.jpg

Lets be serious, look at this "techinque", no one punches like that!

http://www.jtcf.org.uk/images/Lift-Hands-Low-Kick.jpg

or that

.http://www.lb.emb-japan.go.jp/activities/karate.jpg

or that. I want to know, REALLY, if any of you have found the punch defense techniques you learned as practical. Be Serious. from what ive seen, i have never seen anything like this used anywhere except a dojo.

Punch defense techinques are a bunch of crap. The only thing useful is to block, dodge, or parry. Theres is no such thing as

technique to defend against a punch!:shrug:

agreed

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Every technique that requires more than a second is all theory crap. Except in grappling arts. No one will hang in the air for a second to let you do you stuff. And in the pics, if they were going fast, the camera wouldnt be able to capture them that good.

Martial Arts techniques are a waste of time. Serious

And your opinion is based upon training in a sport. No one will stand there and let you do the technique to them, but like any other action it has to be learned at the slowest possible speed and with time and practice the body will speed it up. Stillpics are very decieving because they have to be choreographed so the viewer can see what is being done.

If you think techniques are a waste of time go visit a Kenpo school and tell them that.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Every technique that requires more than a second is all theory crap. Except in grappling arts. No one will hang in the air for a second to let you do you stuff. And in the pics, if they were going fast, the camera wouldnt be able to capture them that good.

Martial Arts techniques are a waste of time. Serious
The moves that take more than a second weren't really meant to be used in combat extensively.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
The first part has some truth to it. That is why people are telling you that still photos do not tell you the whole picture. What you see as eternityin the photo may indeed only exists in less than a second. You may get punched, kicked and the attacking limbs are withdrawn already, before you even ready to parry. Trained strikers can throw out 8-10 punches in 1 second!

Granted, those pics really are not the tell-all of striking techniques. If anything, they probably only show that THOSE people in the pics SUCK. lol


The second part "..Martial Arts techniques are a waste of time. Serious..." Hmmm..... why don't you tell that to your Muay Thai instructor/s the next time you go to class? ;) LOL Tell them that their techniques are a waste of time and you don't need jack s%$# from them. lol
I think the record is 9.8 punches or something like that.

But yes, trained fighters can throw a flurry of punches. William Cheung can block all the punch combos of this one boxer, but even 6 punches in a second requires something other than blocking. Such as socking the guy, or trapping/locking/clinching on to him, etc. Nobody can block that many punches in a second... Maybe other than me of course :rofl:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
What I meant by techniques was "if this happens, then do this.." type of technique. Techniques such as striking techinues, and blocking/parrying/dodging, and takedowns are not what i meant.
Yes, I agree

If they do ONLY that, then they'll think of what they'll do in a fight. That won't do. It has to be a fast reaction, an instinctive reaction.

However, the "if someone does this, you could do this or this or that" does work. As long as you practice it full-speed during sparring later over and over and over and over.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
I was fighting the other day and I never expected to react like a boxer. However I did, I was ducking and doing all these upper body movements. I almost forgot about parry and kick and all those sequences
Don't lose that quality.

Your mind subconsciously does what's best (or what at least you have trained your CNS to do). Sometimes, your body will parry, or dodge it, etc. That's what every martial artist, regardless of style is looking for. Instinctive, flowing movements. Has anyone attacked you out of the blue, then you instinctively dodge or block it? I was able to do that when I was 4 if I remember, my brother would always just hit me. After a few months of exhausting training hours a day, I wasn't able to do that anymore. Until a year later, that's when it started coming back together... Only difference. My instinct is technical and mechanical, meaning more power and speed.

[muayThaiPerson]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Don't lose that quality.

Your mind subconsciously does what's best (or what at least you have trained your CNS to do). Sometimes, your body will parry, or dodge it, etc. That's what every martial artist, regardless of style is looking for. Instinctive, flowing movements. Has anyone attacked you out of the blue, then you instinctively dodge or block it? I was able to do that when I was 4 if I remember, my brother would always just hit me. After a few months of exhausting training hours a day, I wasn't able to do that anymore. Until a year later, that's when it started coming back together... Only difference. My instinct is technical and mechanical, meaning more power and speed.

Which brings me to another point. In combat, kicking really rare. Its only avaiblable if the opponent is defending. Kicking will leave yourself very open. The problem with sparring is its much to light. Sparring should be a simulation of full contact combat. People who have pads on usually forget about getting hurt and just do their thing. Unfortunatley, that blinds them...they dont realize the seriousness of combat when it comes to them.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Which brings me to another point. In combat, kicking really rare. Its only avaiblable if the opponent is defending. Kicking will leave yourself very open. The problem with sparring is its much to light. Sparring should be a simulation of full contact combat. People who have pads on usually forget about getting hurt and just do their thing. Unfortunatley, that blinds them...they dont realize the seriousness of combat when it comes to them.

Full contact sparring is vital if you intend to actually be able to functionalize what you've learned against a real opponent.

But it's impossible to make sparring (full contact or otherwise) a simulation of combat.

Sparring, generally, means you know how many opponents you're facing, what weapons are involved, and that you're in a "sterile" terrain (i.e.: open space with no bystanders, obstacles, elevation changes, etc.)

But, even if you modify your sparring so you don't know any of that, then you still know that you're about to fight other trained practitioners. And, even if you pull strangers off the street, you still know that you're about to get in a fight.

While each of these gets progressively closer to a real fight, none of them are actually a real fight. The last one is undoable for so many reasons it's not even funny.

So, that means that you know you're about to fight with trained practitioners. This means that there will (usually) be some restraint showed in how injurious it gets. And, more to the point, it means that there will be a lot more feinting and "feeling out" than in most "real" fights.

Things that'll never work under sparring conditions (even the most realistic of sparring conditions) may well work in the street against an overcommitted attacker without a lot of training or experience. And, vice versa, things that will work in sparring may never work in the street.

What sparring, IMHO, should be is just another training tool. And all of our training tools should be geared toward better understanding the tools we use. By gaining better understanding of our tools, we begin to understand not only how to use those tools, but also when it's appropriate to use them.

I personally think that people who try to "simulate combat" in their sparring are shortchanging themselves in the long run. Sparring is sparring. Fighting is fighting. Sparring is a training tool that helps us learn to fight better. But never mistake sparring for fighting.

A great quote that (indirectly) relates to this:


By Ernest Hemingway
Never mistake motion for action.

Mike

[Elfan]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Which brings me to another point. In combat, kicking really rare. Its only avaiblable if the opponent is defending. Kicking will leave yourself very open. The problem with sparring is its much to light. Sparring should be a simulation of full contact combat. People who have pads on usually forget about getting hurt and just do their thing. Unfortunatley, that blinds them...they dont realize the seriousness of combat when it comes to them.

You refering to "high" kicking or kicking in general?

[muayThaiPerson]

Kicking in general