How come ?

[Burnerbob]

An "Oriental Master" leaves his style and starts a new one, everybody praises him as the next best thing since sliced bread ?
He is idolized for what he has done, and kudos placed upon him, yet when an "American" does the same thing he is chastised and labeled as a glory seeker.
All of the arts were derived from others example Judo was an off shoot of Jiu-Jitsu, Kempo or Kenpo, and so on. Yet these were founded by "Oriental Masters".

[Sukerkin]

I'm not certain this is entirely true is it?

There is a world of difference between the legitimacy of a 'branch' of a ryu created by someone of seniority and some young black-belt who decides that he's 'great' enough to found his own 'style'.

Is there a certain someone you have in mind?

[Burnerbob]

I am not talking about some "Young Black Belt", rather seasoned veterans.
Yes Richard Barathay comes to mind, but there are others. Grand Master Peter Urban is another and I have trained with them as well as other greats both American and Oriental. While Urban stayed with the ideals of Go Ju, Barathay took ACK one step beyond.
Grand Master Gene Perceval (Bushido 40) while still maintaining his allegiance to Tae Kwon Do taught us many years ago to adapt to what best fits your situation.
I have nothing but high respect and admiration for these three, and it erks me to no end when people who have never even met them can criticise them.
I for one will cherish all that I have learned from them and other greats, for it is through them I am who I am today.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

There is nothing really wrong with creating your own style be that Asian,or not.


As I said in the "create your own style" thread

Most people create a style based on interperation which may lead to Ego strokes.

I think there is a higher chance in modern times of non Asians creating there own style and in some cases the drive is money and greed.

[MJS]

An "Oriental Master" leaves his style and starts a new one, everybody praises him as the next best thing since sliced bread ?
He is idolized for what he has done, and kudos placed upon him, yet when an "American" does the same thing he is chastised and labeled as a glory seeker.
All of the arts were derived from others example Judo was an off shoot of Jiu-Jitsu, Kempo or Kenpo, and so on. Yet these were founded by "Oriental Masters".

Here's something to think about. The arts we see today, were all founded by masters, many years ago. Those arts still exist to this day. Generations produce more top level teachers, and the art continues to get passed on. So, why would one of those current day masters, find it necessary to run out and make it seem like they created something new?

You have many people who trained with Ed Parker. While those people may have their own interpretations of how to perform a given technique, the fact remains that they're not running around making it seem like they're the founder of some new style of Kenpo. Why would they? I mean, they could call the art Combat Kenpo, but is it really anything different than what Parker was teaching?

Additionally, there're so many arts out there today, why does anyone feel the need to do this? If people do, I still maintain that its ego driven. Those people have some complex about themselves, and feel that unless they brag about training in 8 different arts, holding 8 7th degree black belts, and the claim that they're some founder, that they won't amount to anything. Its sad.

[punisher73]

An "Oriental Master" leaves his style and starts a new one, everybody praises him as the next best thing since sliced bread ?
He is idolized for what he has done, and kudos placed upon him, yet when an "American" does the same thing he is chastised and labeled as a glory seeker.
All of the arts were derived from others example Judo was an off shoot of Jiu-Jitsu, Kempo or Kenpo, and so on. Yet these were founded by "Oriental Masters".

I don't think that is always the case, I just don't think we hear about it as much since many of the styles in question the founder is dead.

Although, I think that here in the US anyways it does seem to be the pattern that there can be no new innovations or approaches and anything new is just a junk style or a rip off of something else.

[Ninebird8]

In some instances, like with one of my three masters, certain people do have the skill but over time have made either subtle changes to the art they were taught or have over time created some of their own items. In order not to confuse the public, they shed the organization name and take on another name. As an example, my white crane and Yang tai chi master, Jeff Bolt, is the senior student of Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. However, we have never been a part of the YMAA organization. When Dr. Yang use to come to Houston to do seminars, he acknowledged that some of Jeff's acumen was as good as his, i.e. fa jing, candle punching, long fist. Jeff also created a two person 5 part chin na set that incorporated many of the techniques he was taught by Dr. Yang. Until he closed the school 2 years ago because he was out of country on business and recently got married, he had named the school, "Jeff Bolt's Kung fu & Tai chi." Dr. Yang never took offense to this. Jeff also behind the scenes learned alot from Madame Wong Ju Rong and Dr. Cheng de Wu, who he sponsored to the US i n 1989, and for awhile they were embedded in the school.

On the other hand, my other two masters still call their schools Ying Jow Pai Ng Wei branch of Lau Ying Jow (Leung Shum), and Wang's School of Kung Fu Fighters (Ricky Anderson for Wang Fui Yen).

I will say though, in my humble opinion, two things should occur before doing this: first, have a legitimate master either give permission or tacit understanding, and second, a person should have at least 25-30 years of strong background before doing so, and verifiable to the public and the martial arts community.

This is my humble opinion. I totally disagree with people who do otherwise. Also, to the three masters one person mentioned, I have seen two of the three perform at Madison Square Garden when I worked and trained there, and they are awesome. Dillman's pressure point acumen is controversial, and Mr. Barathy's breaking is superhuman, but in person both were unexplainable, and I am not one to be awed easily now.

[BrandonLucas]

How many new arts do you see coming from Oriental Masters these days? I don't know of any new ones that are groundbreaking...Gracie JJ is fairly new, but it's a build on top of JJ, not a completely new art.

How many of those arts that came from Oriental Masters from so many years ago professed to be the only art you would ever need, and that it could trump any other art out there?

The fact remains that the martial arts that we study now originated mostly in the East. Not all of them, but the majority.

I'm not saying that someone can't come up with their own art from the West, but honestly, how much more can we do beyond flying that would be new concept?

Look at things objectively instead of being defensive about certain instructors. All of the "Oriental Arts" have some type of distinction about them...sure, they were offshoots of other arts. But you can tell the difference between Judo and Jiu Jitsu, Kenpo and Shotokan.

How many of these "shiny new" American arts are really, truly distinct?

None that I've seen.

[YoungMan]

Because many times the American isn't creating anything new, and in fact is creating some "new art" for less than honorable reasons (money, ego etc.)
99% of the time, American-made martial arts are simply the same car with a different paint job.
Peter Urban promoted himself to 9th Dan if I recall correctly.

[jks9199]

It wasn't always (or, possibly, ever) done without problems and acrimony.

But it may have been handled in a very different way. Westerners and Easterners often have problems when they compare responses or actions; there's often things hidden in plain sight.

I've seen two ways that "new" styles start. Some start organically. Someone trains, whether in one system or several, and learns and adapts, and starts getting successful. If they've got the right mindset, they systematize their training or they simply start sharing it with people. Occasionally, along the same lines, someone makes an intuitive leap that leads them from their training to something new. (Steve Perry did a nice job describing this process in The Musashi Flex. This organic process isn't so much a case of inventing something new as figuring out what the "creator" was doing anyway, if that makes sense.

The other way is what we're seeing a lot of lately here in the US. Someone decides to invent their own style, often to be able to market something commercially or an even more ego driven process... Or someone splits off from their teacher, and distances themselves by renaming what they do. (Note that this is different from starting a new organization after a split; in that case, folks are still teaching whatever, just under "new management.") This commercial or ego driven process puts folks off -- and all too often, it's done by someone who hasn't really got the depth in anything to know that, at best, they're reinventing the wheel.

[Burnerbob]

Because many times the American isn't creating anything new, and in fact is creating some "new art" for less than honorable reasons (money, ego etc.)
99% of the time, American-made martial arts are simply the same car with a different paint job.
Peter Urban promoted himself to 9th Dan if I recall correctly.
Your recollection is wrong. Master Urban received his "Tenth Degree" from the Budokukai (an examining board of well respected high ranking members) under "Grandmaster" Richard Kim with the blessings of O'Sensi Yamaguchi (founder of Go Ju).

[Xue Sheng]

An "Oriental Master" leaves his style and starts a new one, everybody praises him as the next best thing since sliced bread ?
He is idolized for what he has done, and kudos placed upon him, yet when an "American" does the same thing he is chastised and labeled as a glory seeker.
All of the arts were derived from others example Judo was an off shoot of Jiu-Jitsu, Kempo or Kenpo, and so on. Yet these were founded by "Oriental Masters".

First not all "Oriental Masters" that created a style or for that matter called themselves a master succeeded. Some only managed to get laughed out of the area or beaten severely.

Second; Those "Oriental Masters", If you are talking People like Wang Xiangzhai (founder of Yiquan) or Jigoro Kano (founder of Judo) and before. Didn't just wake up one day after years of training and say "Hey I think I need to make a new style" and then go off and happily start teaching it. They fought one hell of a lot of people to prove their new style was worthy to actually "BE" a style of its own. They faced ridicule, scorn and challenges. Now they are thought of as great masters but they were not in the beginning.

So if a guy wants to make his own style today and he has the training to back it up then he should be able to take a little (or a lot of) ridicule and/or verbal abuse, since challenges are not all that common today in the West. If he/she can't take that then don't start your own style and stop whinig about it.

And if you are talking China today and a guy shows up to a group of Chinese martial artists and calls himself a grandmaster he will either be asking for a challenge or get laughed out of the room. If he shows up and says I have a new style...well he will have to prove it sooner or later (unless he restricts his students to westerners that is. Westerners eat this stuff up and take it a face value since the face is, after all, Chinese). It seems to me that it is pretty damn easy here in the west to start your own style and label yourself things like “Grandmaster” if you are honestly comparing this to the East.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Xue, I think that a lot of the problem with westerners accepting things at face value has to do with the fact that eastern martial arts have only been in the states as a real presence since the late forties, and that's being generous. On the other hand, a Chinese man of a hundred and seven would never have known a time that the traditional arts were not around.

For westerners, MA still has that shiney, new, 'ooh' ah cool factor. It's worn off a bit, which is why when a "new style" is introduced, it reignites the new-cool factor for some.

Lastly, Americans are truly talented at reinventing things, systemetizing things, and improving things. Yankee ingenuity, we like to call it. And we are. This mentality is born of being a young country that had to do just that in order to survive as colonists, break with a world power, expand, and become a world power in our own rite. The flipside is that we tend to think that this can be done with anything, and sometimes, we just don't have the background to do it.

Some Americans do found new styles the right way. Many do not. To be fair, we've had a goodly amount of 'the wrong way' being done by easterners right along side of us. Easterners who got on a plane in the orient as third dan and got off of the plane as ninth dan venti supremo grandmasters. Once we saw that they could do it, then why not us?

Just a few observations. I make no judgements about anyone creating a style until I have experienced it myself or studied its history fairly extensively. Needless to say, I haven't made very many judgements about new styles.

Daniel

[Ninebird8]

Well put Celtic Tiger, I like your points and the way you stated them! Most of the time at least we will credit those who act as the basis point.

[Burnerbob]

Not just Americans promoting themselves from low to high dan.
I have met two Koreans who did just that. One even made himself a "Tenth Degree", and when I mentioned that there were only "Ninth Degree" in Tae Kwon Do, he replied "This is my style".
The other worked for a well known Korean Master, and decided to open his own DoJang. Went from second degree to sixth just coming to Long Island. But no one ever chastised these individuals, why because they were "Oriental" and it was taken for granted that they were whom they claimed to be.

[Xue Sheng]

Xue, I think that a lot of the problem with westerners accepting things at face value has to do with the fact that eastern martial arts have only been in the states as a real presence since the late forties, and that's being generous. On the other hand, a Chinese man of a hundred and seven would never have known a time that the traditional arts were not around.

For westerners, MA still has that shiney, new, 'ooh' ah cool factor. It's worn off a bit, which is why when a "new style" is introduced, it reignites the new-cool factor for some.

Lastly, Americans are truly talented at reinventing things, systemetizing things, and improving things. Yankee ingenuity, we like to call it. And we are. This mentality is born of being a young country that had to do just that in order to survive as colonists, break with a world power, expand, and become a world power in our own rite. The flipside is that we tend to think that this can be done with anything, and sometimes, we just don't have the background to do it.

Some Americans do found new styles the right way. Many do not. To be fair, we've had a goodly amount of 'the wrong way' being done by easterners right along side of us. Easterners who got on a plane in the orient as third dan and got off of the plane as ninth dan venti supremo grandmasters. Once we saw that they could do it, then why not us?

Just a few observations. I make no judgements about anyone creating a style until I have experienced it myself or studied its history fairly extensively. Needless to say, I haven't made very many judgements about new styles.

Daniel

I will add this as well when it comes to the west and someone form the east.

A man from China or Japan shows up in the west claiming a "NEW" style that he learned form monks or ninja or Taoists or any other symbol of the east that has been associated with MA and he will make a million dollars. That same guy goes to Japan or China and he gets laughed out of the room.... or asked to prove its worth.

We buy an awful lot, hook line and sinker, here in the west just because of where the salesman is from and rarely do the research to see if it is true or for that matter even possible. Someone tells me they learned Taiji from Yang Shaohou they better be Chinese and at least 88 years old but if they make that claim to others they could easily get away with it.

But as to new styles I agree in some cases it is exactly what you have said. In others it is our western impatient that makes us want everything now and we do not want to take the time to actually “learn’ a given style when it is easier to combine it with something else, rename it, take credit for it and make money off of it.

If an American, European or any other person from the West takes the time to “REALLY” train multiple styles and then through study and trial and error comes up with a way or a style he likes better or believes is better and then goes off to teach it I am all for it. However it is the impatient ones I have a problem with

[Xue Sheng]

Not just Americans promoting themselves from low to high dan.
I have met two Koreans who did just that. One even made himself a "Tenth Degree", and when I mentioned that there were only "Ninth Degree" in Tae Kwon Do, he replied "This is my style".
The other worked for a well known Korean Master, and decided to open his own DoJang. Went from second degree to sixth just coming to Long Island. But no one ever chastised these individuals, why because they were "Oriental" and it was taken for granted that they were whom they claimed to be.

There are also Chinese martial artists that in China are only called Sifu that insist on being called Grandmaster here (The West) but in China they would never make that claim. There are Chinese MA websites that are in English and Chinese that on the Chinese page have "ONLY" Sifu, if that. But on the English version it has Grandmaster... what does that tell you about us in the west and their view of us.

China when talking Chinese MAist to Chinese MAist if one calls the other a grandmaster he is either being sarcastic or looking for a fight. This is true of the North and it use to be true of the South, although I am not certain if it is still true or not for the south.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not just Americans promoting themselves from low to high dan.
I have met two Koreans who did just that. One even made himself a "Tenth Degree", and when I mentioned that there were only "Ninth Degree" in Tae Kwon Do, he replied "This is my style".
The other worked for a well known Korean Master, and decided to open his own DoJang. Went from second degree to sixth just coming to Long Island. But no one ever chastised these individuals, why because they were "Oriental" and it was taken for granted that they were whom they claimed to be.
Well, I do believe that there is a legitimate tenth degree in taekwondo. Of course the holders are all dead, as it is a posthumous degree.

Daniel

[Sukerkin]

I seem to be chiming in here as a bit of a Devil's Advocate, for which I apologise :o.

However, citing Korean self-promoters as a good example of precident for American's to do the same thing is possibly not the best way of promoting {Yeah! Rank based pun attack :D!} the point.

I know that there are a lot of TKD folks here at MT and I don't want to annoy them but it is the case that the whole history of the art has it's thorns and points of contention, so it is perhaps not a surprise that there have been some 'contended' escalations of rank.

Indeed, I suspect that there must be some such incidents in the JMA and CMA too.

My point is the old adage of "two wrongs not making a right" and that those Korean artists who embroidered their resume are no more held in high esteem than any other such 'embellisher'.

[Flying Crane]

I
However, citing Korean self-promoters as a good example of precident for American's to do the same thing is possibly not the best way of promoting {Yeah! Rank based pun attack :D!} the point.

I know that there are a lot of TKD folks here at MT and I don't want to annoy them but it is the case that the whole history of the art has it's thorns and points of contention, so it is perhaps not a surprise that there have been some 'contended' escalations of rank.



Welcome to the world of Kenpo.

I don't believe there is a 10th dan in kenpo, whose promotion to that rank wouldn't raise someone's eyebrows a bit if placed under close scrutiny, including Ed Parker and William Chow (who claimed 15th Dan, I believe, as a way of placing himself above all the others claiming 10th).

However, some of these people proved they were made of the right metal to support the claim, so their lineages have thrived. Others, not so much.

[Twin Fist]

Your recollection is wrong. Master Urban received his "Tenth Degree" from the Budokukai (an examining board of well respected high ranking members) under "Grandmaster" Richard Kim with the blessings of O'Sensi Yamaguchi (founder of Go Ju).

not quite

Yamaguchi wasnt the FOUNDER of goju

That was Chogun Miyagi


as to wether or not he self promoted, so what?

Chow self promoted

the founders ALL self promoted, or got thier buddies to promote them.

[Xue Sheng]

I
Indeed, I suspect that there must be some such incidents in the JMA and CMA too.

:jaw-dropping: In CMA :eek:…. NEVER :angry:…oh wait :uhohh:…I already said it did:duh:…didn’t I :D

My first Sifu who once told me that he could not be a grandmaster now claims to be a grand master of 20 some odd styles and in the US he gets away with it... In China he would be thought of only as a gym teacher.

My Taijiquan Sifu absolutely will not let anyone call him a grandmaster. You call him Sifu or by his first name. In China he would be considered a Taiji Sifu form a very good lineage. He absolutely does not understands how my first Sifu has the nerve to take the title of Grandmaster. But then per my taiji Sifu the only grandmasters he ever knew of in China where dead guys. If they were alive you never called them grandmaster.

My Sanda Sifu who could be a Sanda Sifu in china does not want to be called Sifu or grandmaster and he just calls my first Sifu's wushu huā quán xìu tǔi. Basically it means pretty so look at but it’s a dance.. the not so nice "Flower Fist" comment

[Cryozombie]

the founders ALL self promoted, or got thier buddies to promote them.

Sorry, TF, I need clarification of this point... are you speaking Generally... All founders self promoted, or were you speaking of a specific art/arts?

[Twin Fist]

well, think it through

if i found a style, then I am in effect MAKING myself a 10th Dan, or the equivelent.

Norris made himself a 10th when he founded the UFAF
Parker made himself a 10th dan
Chow made himself a 10th dan, then a 15th dan
Urban got his buddies to do it
Moses Powell made himself a 10th
Helio Gracie made himself a 10th
Mas Oyama made himself a 10th dan
Tak Kobuta made himself a 10th dan


the trick is, how many founders were 10th degrees BEFORE they founded thier system?

for that matter, since we KNOW the "Dan" system really only goes back to the 30's. The so called "first gen" blackbelts out of japan and okinawa ranked themselves.

[seasoned]

You guy’s are making it all sound trivial and worthless. It is all psychobabble, and it is no wonder that a good amount of the people think that MA is bull crap. There are a lot of details that go into calling yourself a master or founder. All the ground work has been laid for styles, and titles have been given, many, many years ago, so get over it.

[Flying Crane]

You guy’s are making it all sound trivial and worthless.

often, it is.




It is all psychobabble,

yup, unfortunately the martial arts often has a good dose of this as well.




and it is no wonder that a good amount of the people think that MA is bull crap.

and often, they are right.




There are a lot of details that go into calling yourself a master or founder. All the ground work has been laid for styles, and titles have been given, many, many years ago,

sometimes. often, not so.
Titles given? Given by whom? What makes them qualified to give titles?




so get over it.


personally, I'm not hung up over it. What's there to get over?

[seasoned]

[/size]
often, it is.


[/size]
yup, unfortunately the martial arts often has a good dose of this as well.


[/size]
and often, they are right.


[/size]
sometimes. often, not so.
Titles given? Given by whom? What makes them qualified to give titles?


personally, I'm not hung up over it. What's there to get over?

Mr. Flying Crane, thank you for responding. It seems we agree on most of my points. The ones that seem to be in question are “Titles given? Given by whom? What makes them qualified to give titles“?
In this thread the discussion vacillates between eastern and western. Some very good points have been made about how we got to the state of MA, we are in today, pertaining to super high titles and also, a validity issue. Some say titles given to oriental’s are given more credibility then titles given to westerners. This makes sense, because the foundations of MA, were generated from east to west, so credibility is assumed. I feel that the biggest issue at hand is the fact, that once any concept or idea hits our shore, and free market takes over, it lends itself to, greed, and large ego. After all, isn’t bigger always better? Lets talk about foundations and beginning, and see where this all started, so we can wonder, at where it is today. Foundations were set by greats like Kanryo Higaonna, and Chojun Miyagi, and the biggest title they were ever given were that of “teacher”. Which translates into “one who leads the way”. A simple title like Sensei is all that was put after there name. This alone was enough to carry their name and there art to this day. You were one of two things, teacher or student. Who gave you the title of “teacher” or “Sensei”? That’s easy, it was given, not taken, based on, ability, honesty and integrity, stemming from a good heart. Once while Masanobu Shinjo Sensei was visiting the states, he was asked what Karate meant to him. He simply pointed to his heart. It is in this simplicity, and humbleness that true strength comes from. There will always be someone that needs all the frills and fanciness, that simply draws attention to themselves. And then, thankfully there are those who chose a simpler path, a more traditional path.

[YoungMan]

It is not true that creating your own style automatically makes you 10th Dan in it. Every style founder I ever heard of, who had legitimately created a style )and they are few and far between), earned their rank elsewhere. Won Kuk Lee, the founder of Tang Soo Do, never claimed 10th Dan in that style. My old Yoshokai grandmaster, despite being the founder of Yoshokai aikido, never claimed to be a 10th Dan in Yoshokai.
Even if I created my own style, I would never claim 10th Dan in it. I would use my Taekwondo rank as a reference and state this is what I teach now.
For the record, I've only met one guy (American, surprise surprise!) who founded his own organization and claimed 10th Dan in it. But he's a joke.

[tshadowchaser]

My thought on the original question :

If a person has trained over half or 3/4ths of their live and they are in their 50’s and decide to incorporate all of their knowledge under the banner of a new system let them. That is if they are truly a master in one of the arts and have been studying tha style the majority of their life with other studies included over the years.
The style will grow or fail with time and that will be the judge of if it worked for others.

[Twin Fist]

It is not true that creating your own style automatically makes you 10th Dan in it. Every style founder I ever heard of, who had legitimately created a style )and they are few and far between), earned their rank elsewhere.

Norris made himself a 10th when he founded the UFAF
Parker made himself a 10th dan
Chow made himself a 10th dan, then a 15th dan
Urban got his buddies to do it
Moses Powell made himself a 10th
Helio Gracie made himself a 10th
Mas Oyama made himself a 10th dan
Tak Kobuta made himself a 10th dan

so, are those guys jokes?

or do they prove you wrong?

not to mention
Ralph Castro
Sijo Emperaldo
Bill Ryusaki

The thing is, when you create a new style, you almost HAVE to self promote.

Think it through, sooner or later your students will need to get promoted. That means you have to be high enough rank to promote them.

The fact is that the type of large org you come from YM is the exception, rather than the rule.

[Sukerkin]

I think yourself and YM are saying different things, TF rather than actually being at loggerheads.

You are pointing out some prominent example of people who gave themselves rank by fiat whereas he is saying that all the legitimate 'founders' he's heard of earned their rank the old-fashioned way.

By the way, other than Mr. Norris and Mr. Parker, the others appeared to have been wasting their time making themselves martal arts gods because I've never heard of them :D.

Lineage, legitimacy and having a 'good name' matters, or at least it does to me. I wouldn't countenance being taught by someone who declared themselves Master of an Art. Self-praise is no praise at all :lol:. Maybe it's because I'm English and therefore from a society that is more inherently hierarchical than America?

[Twin Fist]

you have never heard of:

William Chow -ed parkers teacher
Peter Urban -founded american goju ryu
Moses Powell -founded suances ryu jujitsu
Helio Gracie -founded gracie jujitsu
Mas Oyama -founded kukoshin kai karate
Tak Kobuta -founded gosoku ryu karate
Ralph Castro -founded shaolin keNpo
Sijo Emperaldo -founded kajukenbo
Bill Ryusaki -founded hawaian Kenpo

?

well, thats ok. If you dont study one of those styles and are not a MA history buff like i am, there is no reason why you would have.

Hell, look at me, I dont teach pure TKD, or pure kenpo, but an amalgam of both.

now I dont consider myself a founder, I am just doing it the way i find the most effective, rather like the "Method" thing in kaju that was discussed upthread.

And trust me, lineage matters to me too, in fact it gets me in trouble sometimes. Like one time i was asked by a friend to help him test one of his students for her kenpo BB. I asked her to recite her lineage back to Mitose.

[Sukerkin]

:D

Indeed, I'll go further than that and say that I've never heard of their arts either, other than kenpo in a general way.

As I've spoken of before, my study of history was professional rather than personal, altho' I have travelled certain roads of my own interest (such as Japanese history) for decades.

I have not made a general study of the history martial arts in the way that you seem to have done and I'll openly admit to a good deal of snobbery when it comes to arts that were not founded centuries ago, which has further closed my eyes to things that may be common knowledge to others {:o}. So thank you for filling in the blanks a little, so to speak.

[Twin Fist]

it's all good mark. I am just a MA history buff, so i have looked lots of stuff up. Plus, while i was in the military, i moved around a lot, so i got to try different styles and schools

[Xue Sheng]

Lineage, legitimacy and having a 'good name' matters, or at least it does to me. I wouldn't countenance being taught by someone who declared themselves Master of an Art. Self-praise is no praise at all :lol:. Maybe it's because I'm English and therefore from a society that is more inherently hierarchical than America?

Nope, it's not just the English.. I'm American....but then I train CMA and am married into a Chinese family so maybe I look at things different

[YoungMan]

I don't care who you are; declaring yourself to be 10th Dan is bad form. Someone else has to give you rank, even if it's posthumously.

[BrandonLucas]

I don't care who you are; declaring yourself to be 10th Dan is bad form. Someone else has to give you rank, even if it's posthumously.

I agree, and I've never understood how someone can award you a rank posthumously...wouldn't that leave someone rather incapable of doing...well...anything?

Not only that, but I think what doesn't look so good is, for instance, a guy who wants to create his own style, that, for the sake of argument, actually has a valid reason for creating one. We'll say that he's doing a mixture of TKD, Kenpo, and several CMA's that he's studied for many years.

Well, out of all the arts he's studied, the highest rank that he's earned is a 4th degree blackbelt, we'll say in TKD.

How, then, is it that he can combine all his other arts and magically come up with 10th dan in his own art? How does one come up with the correct number?

Wouldn't it be more realistic to say that you're the teacher of the system, and that you're simply a blackbelt? You can instruct others to achieve a black belt in your system, but they would always be considered lower rank than you since they're your students learning your style. If you don't promote someone past the level of blackbelt, then you don't have to worry about what dan you are...just get rid of the dan system all together. I don't think they should be needed outside of the arts and systems that already employ that method, myself...and it would avoid all of the bickering about how "qualified" someone is.

[YoungMan]

I think a better approach is to simply state your held rank, declare what you are teaching, and go from there. At least that's honest. It's also a lot better if you start off as a very senior instructor in another art. I'd be very leery of a 4th Dan who was teaching his own self created style. There's still so much you don't know in your base art.

[Twin Fist]

I'd be very leery of a 4th Dan who was teaching his own self created style. There's still so much you don't know in your base art.

please dont apply your situation to everyone else. As has already been discussed and shown, even having material to learn after BB is a recent (last 40 years) development.

[Xue Sheng]

I don't care who you are; declaring yourself to be 10th Dan is bad form. Someone else has to give you rank, even if it's posthumously.

OK, but is it ok to declare myself lord high omnipotent grandmaster and evil wizard of Xuefu :D

[YoungMan]

I'm sorry, am I offending 4th Dans who created their own style? If so I apologize.

[Twin Fist]

no, you are just ONCE AGAIN assuming your experience is everyones. In some systems, there is more to learn at and after 4th dan level, that may not be true of everyone in every style, the world over

And in the past it certainly wasnt the case.

l

[Twin Fist]

OK, but is it ok to declare myself lord high omnipotent grandmaster and evil wizard of Xuefu :D


that right there's funny, I dont care who you are.........

[BrandonLucas]

This is exactly why I say the dan ranking system isn't that great...just because there is more material to learn beyond the level of blackbelt that you are doesn't mean that you need to have a rank everytime you reach a level of knowledge.

It's a rank. Nothing more. I'm fine with just saying that I'm a blackbelt in TKD, and that I have been for 10 years now.

Once you start getting into the whole argument of "Well, I'm a 12th dan Grand Poobah, so I'm better than you", then, to me, that's when the blackbelt starts to lose its value.

If you're a blackbelt, great, you're a blackbelt. Anything after that is icing on the cake as far as rank is concerned. We are all going to learn something new, no matter what rank we are. Having a blackbelt doesn't mean that you're the highest level and there's nothing left to learn.

It really looks petty when people start arguing over who's the higher rank and why this guy is more qualified to teach what system, and how he ranked himself to 125th dan, even though there was no one there to rank him.

A blackbelt is a blackbelt. Get over the rank thing.

[thardey]

I may be wrong, because this bit of knowledge is from years ago, and I couldn't give a source, but I was told that Mr. Norris received permission from his instructor to branch out and start Chun-kuk-do (Under the United Fighting Arts Federation). I think he was at least 8th degree Tang-so-do at the time, but again, I'm not sure.

His style developed out of work in the ring, adding and modifying TSD, until it really wasn't TSD any more. He didn't really "set out" to create a new art, it simply developed.

So, my question is: In giving permission to Mr. Norris to start CKD/UFAF, isn't that like promoting him to 10th?

In UFAF, there is only ever one 10th at a time, and that is the "Head" of the organization. The 9th's and 8th's sit on the board. So, at that point, rank is more of a leadership issue than necessarily skill.

[Daniel Sullivan]

for that matter, since we KNOW the "Dan" system really only goes back to the 30's.
I thought I had read somewhere that before it was applied to judo by Kano, it was (and I assume still is) a system of rank used in the game, 'Go.'

If my memory is correct (and it may not be) the system was used in some form or another in Go for over a century, but Kano applied it to his students when he was codifying judo.

Daniel

[Twin Fist]

Daniel,
the earliest references i have to seen to dan ranks, as in "____ degree black belt" only go back to the 30's

interesting thing to research tho

edited to add

according to wiki, Kano used Dan rank.

Only one, Shodan.

there was no second degree, third degree, etc

that didnt happen till later

according to one source:
" In 1907, Kano introduced the modern judogi and its modern obi, but he still only used white and black belt ranks. The other colored belts originated later when Judo began being practiced outside of Japan. Sensei Mikonosuke Kaiwashi introduced various colored belts in Europe in 1935 when he started to teach judo in Paris.

The Judo practice uniform and belt system eventually spread to many of the other modern martial arts such as aikido and karate which adapted them for their purpose. Karateka in Okinawa didn't use any sort of special uniform at all in the old days. The kyu/dan ranking system, and the modern karategi (modified judogi) were first
adopted by Funakoshi in an effort to encourage karate's acceptance by the Japanese. He awarded the first shodan ranks given in karate to Tokuda, Otsuka, Akiba, Shimizu, Hirose, Gima, and Kasuya on April 10, 1924. "

but again, Funikoshi only awarded Shodan


then there is this:

"For its part, the Butoku-kai issued instructor's licenses: the titles renshi (the lowest), kyoshi, and hanshi (the highest). It would be a while before the dan/kyu system became universal in karate. By the end of the 1930s, each karate group was called upon to register with the butoku-kai for official sanctioning, and in 1938, a meeting of the Butoku-kai's official karatedo leaders was held in Tokyo. Its purpose was to discuss the standards for awarding rank within their art. Attending, among others, were Hironori Ohtsuka of wado-ryu, Kenwa Mabuni of shito-ryu, Kensei Kinjo (Kaneshiro) and Sannosuke Ueshima of kushin-ryu, Tatsuo Yamada of Nippon kempo, Koyu Konishi of shindo-jinen-ryu, and a young Gogen Yamaguchi of goju-ryu. Most of these men were founders of their own styles, and as such automatically became the highest rank that their agreed-on respective standards allowed."

http://www.judoinfo.com/karateranks.htm

[Xue Sheng]

Dan Rank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_rank)

[Daniel Sullivan]

I followed the link, Xue, and coppied this exerpt, as I found it interesting.

The dan ranking system was invented by Honinbo Dosaku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honinbo_Dosaku), professional go player in the Edo period.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_rank#cite_note-1) Prior to the invention, top-to-bottom ranking was evaluated by each handicaps and tended to be vague. He valued then highest title holder, Meijin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meijin) at 9 Dan.
Dan ranks were applied to martial arts by Kano Jigoro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kano_Jigoro), the founder of judo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo). Kano started the modern rank system when he awarded shodan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shodan) (the lowest dan rank) to two of his senior students (Shiro Saigo and Tsunejiro Tomita) in 1883. Even then, there was no external differentiation between yūdansha (black belt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_belt_(martial_arts)) ranks) and mudansha (those who had not yet attained a grade). Kano began the custom of having his yūdansha wear black obi (belts) in 1886. These obi were not the belts karateka and jūdōka wear today—Kano had not invented the jūdōgi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judogi) (judo uniform) yet, and his students were still practicing in kimono. They wore the wide obi still worn with formal kimono. In 1907, Kano introduced the modern jūdōgi and its modern obi, with white and black belt ranks.
The use of belts to denote ranks were used by different athletic departments within the Japanese school system, most notably for swimmers, prior to their adoption by Kano.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]

Interesting stuff, particularly the last bit about dan rank being used in
athletics prior to Kano's adoption of it in Judo. Though the above does
not mention this, the kyu/dan system replaced the older menkyo kaiden
system.

Daniel

Edit: What the heck happened to my font???