Any knife throwers (http://www.sonic.net/~quine/thrower.html) here? It's yet another thing I want to work on some day when time permits!

yeah, i throw as part of our system..

I dabble. But I have seen what really skilled folks can do; something else to aspire to I suppose.

I recently purchased a nice set of throwing knives, but I don't have a regular place to throw (yet). So put down as a "Dabbler" as well.

would any of you throwers throw your knife in a knife fight??


terry

No.

Once you throw a little you'll figure out why pretty damn quick. There is a good discussion of this question here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=250467

Lunumbra

I used to practice quite a bit when I was younger. Also used one-piece scalpels (in place of traditional Chinese "nails")...they worked really well.

There are some problems with throwing a knife in combat:

1. Once you've done it, you've lost your weapon and
2. The bad guy has your weapon if anything goes wrong.
3. The throw must be VERY accurate and
4. Strong enough to penetrate clothing and enter into vital
organs...
*which isn't likely.

But it IS a lot of fun.

A Great Video on Throwing and Knife Fighting is

KNIFE FIGHTING AND THROWING by Vladmir Vasiliev

The paramount objective of any confrontation is to ensure one's safety without killing or severely injuring the assailant. Learn the skills of gaining complete control of your opponent using multi-dimensional lines of defense and attack, strikes using the flat of the blade and the knife's handle, and pricks with the blade's tip. Comprehensive disclosure of all knife throwing techniques, as well as military shovels, axes, razor blades, two knives at once --- all from any position at any target. The most real and effective use of knives you will ever see!
1 hour 5 min. $39.95

http://www.russianmartialart.com/bin/loadpage.cgi?id+products.html

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays

Originally posted by moromoro
would any of you throwers throw your knife in a knife fight??


terry

Not if it was my only weapon. But I might throw it as a possible finisher/definite distraction to get to a weapon better suited to a specific situation.

But, more likely, I might throw something else (i.e.: a book, a glass, a bottle, a pen) to inflict whatever damage it might but mostly as a distraction to get another weapon at hand or to slow down a chase.

So when I work on throwing, I'm more interested in accuracy than in sticking (though sticking is fun, too). I also throw from various grips and positions (i.e.: underhand throws and sidearm throws, standing, sitting, lying) and, again, focus on accuracy more than sticking every time.

But while it is something I practice, it's not something I practice a lot so my proficiency is mediocre at best ... but improving slowly.

Mike

yeah


it is important to understand if you throw the knife and it doesnt stick he will pick it up and use it on you

Originally posted by moromoro
yeah


it is important to understand if you throw the knife and it doesnt stick he will pick it up and use it on you

Absolutely. But throwing your knife buys you enough time to, for instance, pull your garrotte, machete, gun, or to get in your car and boogie, then you'd go for it, right?

Mike

as a very last resort maybe but that depends as always on the situation, as long as you understand the dangers involve

Originally posted by moromoro
as a very last resort maybe but that depends as always on the situation, as long as you understand the dangers involve

Absolutely. Since I rarely carry a knife to begin with, it's not much of an issue for me. That's why I primarily work on accuracy (as I mentioned previously). I try to stick throwing knives for fun. But my primary goal is to develop accuracy with anything I'm throwing. Anything from coins, a pen, a cup, a book, some water, etc.

All of them may serve as useful distractions and/or attacks.

Mike

have you noticed that accuracy is never really the problem, its bloody sticking it that is

Originally posted by moromoro
have you noticed that accuracy is never really the problem, its bloody sticking it that is

Not for me. When I'm working accuracy, I put a circle about the size of a nickel (not sure what size that'd be where you are ... for us, it's a 5 cent piece) and that's what I aim for. I generally only stand about 10 feet away. I can stick my blade about 7 out of 10 times from that range. But I only hit the circle about 3 in 10 times.

Mike

ok,
i aim for usually is the size of a basketball....... but sometimes in the session i will go for 5cent piece size targets also i go for those little black dots i see on the board

i use cardboard
what about you guys
what are your prefered target materials

Originally posted by moromoro
ok,
i aim for usually is the size of a basketball....... but sometimes in the session i will go for 5cent piece size targets also i go for those little black dots i see on the board

i use cardboard
what about you guys
what are your prefered target materials

I use cardboard as well ... specifically, old boxes.

Mike

yeah its great because it doesnt damage your knives

Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't Sayoc teach throwing as an entry technique? If so, do they advocate doing so every time?

~geoffrey~

They do put a lot of emphasis on throwing (compared to other FMAs) and do use it an an entry. They also may do a short throw when blocked--sort of 'chucking' it at the person, past the block.

do they teach throwing with out rotations???

Sayoc Kali-bakal is an entire phase of training dedicated to projectile weapons. Best bet is to ask someone with a good deal of training in the system. I've seen some very deceptive stuff utilizing thrown blades in close quarters.

Cthulhu

ok
that was a question for people who know about sayoc training or who train in the style?

I do train in Sayoc, but I'm a pretty raw newbie in the system so can't really address this question.

Mike

hi pesilat

could you explain what your training has been like in sayoc?

how is their garrote work?

thanks

terry

Originally posted by moromoro
hi pesilat

could you explain what your training has been like in sayoc?

how is their garrote work?

thanks

terry

My training in Sayoc has been incredibly limited. Basically, the "3 of 9" template (check out sayoc.com for more info on what that is) and a couple of drills.

As far as I know, Sayoc Kali (that I'm training in) doesn't have any garrote work or stick work. It's "all blade, all the time."

It does, however, have some whip work (which I also do some of) but it's still considered "blade" work because the motions used with the whip are very similar to those used throwing projectiles and the whip work can be used to improve your accuracy with projectiles.

However, there is also the "Sayoc Fighting System" which does have stick work, does do "combat whip" (i.e.: learning to fight with the whip instead of focusing on the whip as a training tool for projectiles), etc. I have not had any training in this system at all.

I'm not sure about all the different branches in the Sayoc family of systems. I've only been rather peripherally involved in Sayoc for a few months and my actual training in it has been, at best, very sporadic and limited.

Afraid I'm not much help.

Your best bet for really finding out more about their system(s) would be to go check out their website at http://www.sayoc.com and ask them on their forum.

Mike

This is they way I've heard it, and I'm sure there are those who can correct me if I'm wrong:

The current Sayoc Kali (or Sayoc Kali-silak) headed by GT Chris Sayoc is all blade, all the time, though as previously mentioned, they do train with the whip.

"Bo" Sayoc, now retired, taught a version of Sayoc Kali that didn't focus on just knifework, but stickwork as well. I've heard this system called Sayoc Fighting System, but more generally as Sayoc Kali.

Mike Sayoc (Chris's brother?) teaches a system that I believe is similar to Bo Sayoc's system.

If anyone has more accurate info, please correct me :)

Cthulhu

thanks mike

well how often do you train in sayoc?


terry

Originally posted by moromoro
thanks mike

well how often do you train in sayoc?


terry

I do some Sayoc about once a week. But usually that's just me and some of my guys going over the material that I have. I only get to train in Sayoc with my instructor about once a month because of our schedules.

Mike

what type of material??

sayoc videos?

i have never seen this art, is there any vids on the web site you recommend?


thanks

terry

Originally posted by moromoro
what type of material??

sayoc videos?

i have never seen this art, is there any vids on the web site you recommend?


thanks

terry

The material I mentioned previously. The "3 of 9" template and a couple of basic drills.

I believe there are some vids on the web site in the "Multimedia" section.

Mike

thanks

Hello Everyone,

I have been lurking here for awhile but finally had the time to start posting back some replies! I have been throwing projectiles for close to 20+ years. Everything from screwdrivers, shurikens to axes and blades. I have also been involved in Sayoc Kali for the last three years now, so I hope to be able to answer a few of your questions.

Projectile use in Sayoc Kali is used for a variety of reasons, primarily it is used as a method to gauge an opponent's level of skill and as a method of entry. Projectiles can be launched from 30 feet to right on top of your opponent in the grappling or tie up position.

As for non flip throws, yes they can be used, I back out to the 1/2 turn and can still get a projectile to non rotate, especially underhand throws. Most people discount the value of a projectile because they are not familiar or prepared to do this in their fighting tactics. They may not have a projectile to throw, other than their blade, or they are not familiar with throwing a projectile in a conflict. If you have no reference to the tactic it will not be pulled off during combat. Remember a projectile can be anything you want to throw including a blade, and who really cares if it sticks in, if it doesn't it can still inflict damage, also it can still give you an opening to flee or enter depending on the situation.

For those familiar with Sayoc Kali, take your # 3 of 9 Vital template and launch your blades at each of the Vital targets. This will give you a feel for some of the aspects contained in Sayoc Kali's use of projectiles.


Gumagalang
Guro Steve L- Kayan Dalawa Guro Sayoc Kali

I second everything Airyu said... but I come from a Systema perspective.

Arthur
PS Longtime no see Steve... now come help revitalize some other boards;-)

I practice throwing knives and shurikens (stars) every once in a while, but the knife works better in my hand, than in the air, if you know what I mean.:asian:

Hello Arthur,

I hope you are well!! Yes, I see the other board needs some help, I'll do what I can to help out.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

Hello there,

I trained in throwing knives when I learned silat in Malaysia.
The pesilat there know how to throw knives from different positions, even sending one that is sticking in the ground into an opponent by kicking it (you have to be blody good to do that...). Most of the basic throws were done with the intention to finish an opponent who was on the ground (before he could roll away).

It was OK during training but i would not do it i na real fight.... the big problem is that the knive may not stick into a moving target....
and you don't want to loose a knive in a fight...

I once got a good shot throwing a stick (had two) at the face of an opponent, that ended the fight, but you cannot train that with your partners (may loose an eye), and loosing your stick is not a good idea.....

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

Originally posted by yilisifu
There are some problems with throwing a knife in combat:

1. Once you've done it, you've lost your weapon and
2. The bad guy has your weapon if anything goes wrong.
3. The throw must be VERY accurate and
4. Strong enough to penetrate clothing and enter into vital
organs...
*which isn't likely.

Think outside the box for pete's sake!!!!

Just to give you some background, I have to travel all over the world. Ever try to get anything more than sharpened pieces of metal past a customs agent? And if you can get something like a gun, are you willing/able to get rid of it when you leave?

Here is how I look at it,

1- I carry a brace of throwing knives. Lose one, hit him with a few others. Then I rely on more close- in weapons.

2- If I think the guy needs to have one of my knives in him, he is already armed with something worse than the knife. Ever try to spar with a knife against a baseball bat?

3- Practice more and read the internet less.

4- Use heavier knives and get better at them.

Throwing knives are very practical under the right conditions and in the hands of someone willing to put in the time. I prefer a pistol, but with my circumstances that is not an option in many cases where I am trying to keep a low profile.

I personally throw for several reasons. (not in any particular order)

1. Self awareness; throwing knives brings about an awareness of what every part of your body is doing - when you throw perfectly you can feel it.

2. Moving as a unit - when properly throwing, your body will move as a complete unit. If you are doing dynamic throwing (meaning throwing while walking, running or moving) you will see that your throw arm comes forward as you make your step - in unison

3. Posture. Keep your back straight. this helps in transitioning the power of the movement into the throwing of the knife.

4. Extention of focus. You know when people talk about making the such-and-such an extension of yourself? well its the same as with knife throwing - although the difference is that the extension of yourself now includes non-tangible space. This means that you have to feel that the knife is still an extension of you as it flies to its target - and you are not physically holding on to it.

In addition - you learn to extend your focus such that you "see through the tip of the blade" as you become more aware of energy/chi/whatever you feel like calling it - you will see that precise accuracy comes from being able to extend your vision through the knife to the target - but not just a certain area of the target - but a specific point.

5. Kamae - Want to practice moving from Kamae to Kamae? then throw knives - if your transitions are smooth and correct - your knife will throw properly - if not (like if you are moving with too much arm and not from the hip) you will know because you will have trouble throwing the knife - and it will also cause you to exert effort (like when normally throwing a baseball) and you will see that your movements are costing you energy - not saving you energy.

Knife throwing is a wonderful personal training tool - I recommend that anyone do it.

Its meditative.

1- I carry a brace of throwing knives. Lose one, hit him with a few others. Then I rely on more close- in weapons.

2- If I think the guy needs to have one of my knives in him, he is already armed with something worse than the knife. Ever try to spar with a knife against a baseball bat?

3- Practice more and read the internet less.

4- Use heavier knives and get better at them.



Very good points. Throwing a knife means use of force has escalated to lethal. No question about it. I wouldn't give up my only weapon, but if I had multiple knives, I wouldn't worry so much about the bad guy using my badly thrown knifie against me. If he's unarmed, I shouldn't be throwing a knife to begin with. We're not ninja assassins, nor are we Bill the Butcher from Gangs of New York (my favorite knife throwing movie!)

Bill the Butcher from Gangs of New York (my favorite knife throwing movie!)

Not Danny Trejo's character in Desperado?

would any of you throwers throw your knife in a knife fight??

terry

I personally don't beleive in discharging a perfectly good weapon.

If one is to train throwing knives for anything remotely resembling reality, then they should train to throw under stress, while running, at varying ranges, with alot of things going on around them, and be able to effect a true kill. Its a projectile weapon, and if we are to really consider it something usable for real (not movie) combat, then it should be held to the same expectations of a pistol. But, for aesthetic, non-combat purposes, by all means, it is no less credible than training with sai, nunchaku, naginata, or other classical weapons.

Train on.

Salute,

Steven Brown
UKF