Why we punch the way we do

[white dragon]

Does anyone know why styles such as Karate and Taekwondo tend to strike with the fist in a horizontal position? It feels very natural to me, but I wondered if anyon knows how this actually came about and what the benfits of striking in this manner are?

[Mormegil]

I've never taken TKD or Karate, but one thing I like about the horizontal fist when applied from a reverse punch chamber (which I don't like myself), is you get a rotational effect.

When you connect with your opponent, you twist the fist into them. That's kind of nice (or not nice if you're getting punched). If you hit with a vertical fist, like Wing Chun, from a hip chambered position, you only get partial twist.

Wing Chun based punching often uses a vertical fist, and this keeps the elbows down during the punch, covering the centerline.

[MartialArtist]

To me, a horizontal punch , when chambered, is more powerful. For jabs however, I stray more toward the vertical. Well, not a full vertical, maybe a 30 degree angle towards the vertical side. It's the most relaxed position for me and I'm fastest with it. Plus, you get a little wrist motion for extra power (although an added risk of wrist injury). My hooks, etc. are horizontal. My crosses are some what of a hybrid, though angled more towards the horizontal angle.

It's not just vertical vs. horizontal. There are a variety of customizations for each type of punch, and there are strengths and weaknesses to all of them

power
speed
control

drawbacks could include
slowness
tension
an opening
added risk of injury
when you miss, you are screwed

[Matt Stone]

To paraphrase Musashi, strike with your body weapons in such a position to facilitate hitting your opponent. Nothing more.

Certainly there are some methods by which techniques are delivered that are more or less powerful or efficient than others. But unless you are fighting in an arena where gravity doesn't apply, then it is most likely that you will need to conform the shape of your body weapons to the surface of your target.

There is just as much power behind a vertical fist with only 90 to 110 degree rotation as there is with a horizontal fist with 180 degrees of rotation. They appear to be similar techniques, but in their proper application, they are as different (potentially) as a knife hand and a back fist.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[chufeng]

Actually, when properly applied, the vertical fist is tremendously powerful...problem is, few people know how to do it correctly.

Corkscrew punch should NOT end up completely horizontal because it then isolates the arm from the body at the shoulder...there should be a slight angle to it and the elbows should sink...rotation occurs at the end of the technique or you end up pushing instead of punching.

More importantly, the heel should press into the floor...if you find yourself coming up on the ball of the foot, you are sacrificing a great deal of power...

Understand that many people generate power through "momentum" (those who come up on the ball of the foot do this)...Yes, you can generate a lot force in a straight line (great for breaking boards) but you sacrifice control.
You stop the technique by "recovering" from an off balanced position...Better to use "acceleration and focus"...this is achieved by paying attention to proper form in kata and applying that form to your techniques in battle...

Only my opinion...based on "traditional" training...

:asian:
chufeng

[Matt Stone]

I'd like to add that Chufeng is no p*ssy when it comes to punching, either...

I have unfortunately sucked up far too many of them and found myself on the ground finding new and interesting ways to breathe again. Always to the great amusement of Chufeng, I might point out.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[D.Cobb]

The horizontal fist punch is also refered to as the full twist punch. Some researchers believe that the full twist punch was developed with safety in mind. Early in the 20th century, Itosu changed some of his teaching methods, so that he could teach Karate in schools. To make a fighting art, that has the motto,"ikken hisatsu"(sp?) to kill with one blow suitable for children, it is believed that he needed to tone down the dangerous techniques. Originally, the 3/4 twist was used, few styles today still use it. Mostly the older Okinawan styles. It was intended that the full twist punch be used in training or by children, and the 3/4 twist be used in combat.

The 3/4 punch was taught to advanced students, thereby allowing time to instill, morality and integrity, and to build character, thereby giving justification if the 3/4 punch had to be used.

I'm sure that others here would know more, so I'll leave it at that for now.:)


--Dave

:asian:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I'd like to add that Chufeng is no p*ssy when it comes to punching, either...

I have unfortunately sucked up far too many of them and found myself on the ground finding new and interesting ways to breathe again. Always to the great amusement of Chufeng, I might point out.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

Man, I gotta get some travelling in. I love to train with heavy hitters, not sluggers. I like the Dog Brothers take on it.
HIGHER CONSCIOUSNESS THROUGH HARDER CONTACT.

--Dave

:asian:

[chufeng]

Dave,

Yiliquan1 is prone to exagerate my abilities...he hits a lot harder than I do...I just know when to hit...I let him run into it, so his force becomes part of the punch.

As far as training with us...anytime...we love sincerely interested people to train with, regardless of style.

Your comments about the punch being changed to teach youngsters and newcomers is telling...it tells that many people leave their teacher too soon and go out on their own and teach without knowing what they are doing...The reason we see so many people teaching it one way is because of THAT very thing.

Nice post.

In YiLiQuan, we teach it the classical way right from the beginning. We believe that someone who is sincerely interested in training deserves the correct instruction from the beginning...those who aren't interested in toughing it out, but only want to steal the "easy secrets" of our art, will never really develop any skill in the little they learn, anyways. The TRUST a student puts in his teacher can be damaged by holding things back...certainly there are things people aren't ready for, but if they ask a question about a particular aspect of our training, I will answer the question...

:asian:
chufeng

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by chufeng
Yiliquan1 is prone to exagerate my abilities...he hits a lot harder than I do...I just know when to hit...I let him run into it, so his force becomes part of the punch.

Ahh so Matt and I already have something in common. I find that happens to me a lot.:D


Originally posted by chufeng
As far as training with us...anytime...we love sincerely interested people to train with, regardless of style.


One day, it will happen....
I look forward to it.


Originally posted by chufeng
Your comments about the punch being changed to teach youngsters and newcomers is telling...it tells that many people leave their teacher too soon and go out on their own and teach without knowing what they are doing...The reason we see so many people teaching it one way is because of THAT very thing.


Isn't that why we see certain strikes in kata, and go what the hell would this do? We get shown it is a block or a strike, and we think well he must know coz he's got the rank. Then one day we get to see a pressure point application and we think, WOW, how wrong was he?
It's kind of like using a low block against a hard front kick.....
As my instructor says, "Who the hell fights like that?"


Originally posted by chufeng

Nice post.


Thank you. :)


Originally posted by chufeng
In YiLiQuan, we teach it the classical way right from the beginning. We believe that someone who is sincerely interested in training deserves the correct instruction from the beginning...those who aren't interested in toughing it out, but only want to steal the "easy secrets" of our art, will never really develop any skill in the little they learn, anyways. The TRUST a student puts in his teacher can be damaged by holding things back...certainly there are things people aren't ready for, but if they ask a question about a particular aspect of our training, I will answer the question...


I train in Ryukyu Kempo, based on George Dillmans stuff, but my instructor, seems to have taken it to another level.

For example, I was at a Jeff Speakman seminar a few weeks age and he told me that the biggest problem that people had with Mr. Dillman, was that they'd never seen him do it on a moving target. I told him he should meet my instructor. I've never seen him do anything to a static target.
We have seen all the strikes, and so called knock out points, but at black belt, I am only just starting to see what I need to make it work. In fact just last week, my instructor told us during a black belt class, that we could go to town, all over pressure point areas, but without the intrinsic knowledge we couldn't make them work. He demonstrated on me by belting me on the jaw, around the St5 area, 5 or 6 times. As he said to the class, it would hurt but at most would just piss me off if it was a real situation. Then as I tried to take his head off with a punch, he just stepped inside, and tapped me, exactly the same way as he had before, but no where near the same intensity, and my legs just went to rubber.
Having said that, I must agree that there are times when things being kept secret can be very annoying.
But I think that calls for another thread. :D

--Dave

:asian:

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil
I've never taken TKD or Karate, but one thing I like about the horizontal fist when applied from a reverse punch chamber (which I don't like myself), is you get a rotational effect.

When you connect with your opponent, you twist the fist into them. That's kind of nice (or not nice if you're getting punched). If you hit with a vertical fist, like Wing Chun, from a hip chambered position, you only get partial twist.

Wing Chun based punching often uses a vertical fist, and this keeps the elbows down during the punch, covering the centerline.

In Wing Chun (& JKD), you punch with the three smaller knuckles. in TKD & Karate, you punch with your 2 larger knuckles (middle and index). That is the distinction.

Even in TKD and Karate, you still have vertical punches.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
The horizontal fist punch is also refered to as the full twist punch. Some researchers believe that the full twist punch was developed with safety in mind. Early in the 20th century, Itosu changed some of his teaching methods, so that he could teach Karate in schools. To make a fighting art, that has the motto,"ikken hisatsu"(sp?) to kill with one blow suitable for children, it is believed that he needed to tone down the dangerous techniques. Originally, the 3/4 twist was used, few styles today still use it. Mostly the older Okinawan styles. It was intended that the full twist punch be used in training or by children, and the 3/4 twist be used in combat.

The 3/4 punch was taught to advanced students, thereby allowing time to instill, morality and integrity, and to build character, thereby giving justification if the 3/4 punch had to be used.

I'm sure that others here would know more, so I'll leave it at that for now.:)


--Dave

:asian:


You can bet your ass that such differentiation in twist would NOT turn your strike into ikken hisatsu.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
You can bet your ass that such differentiation in twist would NOT turn your strike into ikken hisatsu.

(Loud Buzz)BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!

Wrong again Johnny. I have felt the difference, between the full twist, with high intensity, and the 3/4 twist with low intensity and the one that knocked me down and across the room was the 3/4. I hope to God I never feel it at full intensity.

--Dave

[Elfan]

Originally posted by white dragon
Does anyone know why styles such as Karate and Taekwondo tend to strike with the fist in a horizontal position? It feels very natural to me, but I wondered if anyon knows how this actually came about and what the benfits of striking in this manner are?

Stand in a horse stace with your hands chambered/at your hip/whatever you call it. Now punch, fully extending your arm, with your first vertical. Now do the same but have your fist end up horizontal. Do you feal a binding in your shoulder when you punch vertically with a fully extended arm?

[white dragon]

It just doesn't feel as natural and I can't put my shoulder into it fully, or feel like I'm fully utalizing the waist twist with the vertical punch. (in horse stance)

[DAC..florida]

I feel that striking with a horizontal fist done properly is more powerful than a strait punch.

[Elfan]

Originally posted by white dragon
It just doesn't feel as natural and I can't put my shoulder into it fully, or feel like I'm fully utalizing the waist twist with the vertical punch. (in horse stance)

Well that basically is my answer. From the "chambered" position you have to fully rotate to a horizontal if you are going to fully extend your arm. Anything else is most uncomphy in the shoulder. If you punch in slow motion and note when your fist is vertical then you can see how far your arm can extend for a vertical punch. Thus the main consideration for which punch to use, if you are startign chambered, is range, followed by fitting (ie vertical works a lot better for the solax plexus).

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
(Loud Buzz)BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!

Wrong again Johnny. I have felt the difference, between the full twist, with high intensity, and the 3/4 twist with low intensity and the one that knocked me down and across the room was the 3/4. I hope to God I never feel it at full intensity.

--Dave

hahaaaaa. LMFAO! You have NO idea what ikken hisatsu is about. Not even close! Don't bother to pretend. lol

[Matt Stone]

Punching with a vertical fist requires a dropped shoulder that aligns the bones of the arm in one continuous line. It also requires body turning that allows for the punch to actually end up looking as if it is projecting from the center of the body. This is very difficult to explain in writing, but very simple to demonstrate in person.

I didn't fully understand nor appreciate a vertical fist (in Yili we call it a sun fist, as the character for "sun" looks much like a vertical fist) until many years after I learned it. It does feel very uncomfortable at first, but after training it for some time, it is second nature.

Remember, though the punch may seem to be a basic technique, it actually takes much longer to learn to execute properly than many other methods of striking with the hand.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[chufeng]

I feel that striking with a horizontal fist done properly is more powerful than a strait punch.

You "feel" that it is more powerful? Is that an emotion or are you describing a sense that you can deliver more power that way?

Have you applied both against a target?
(best target is another human, with a shield or phone book, so they can provide feedback)

Truth is you isolate the arm from the body and give up a lot of mass behind the technique if you turn the punch all the way over...you have to be able to "punch from the heel" nad it just can't be done without risking injury to your shoulder (or elbow) if you turn it all the way over.

In the empty air, you may develop the ability to cause your gi to "pop" when you turn it all the way over, but that is sometimes a false positive when it comes to power...

Regardless of how you finally decide to do the technique...don't turn it over until the last 1/2 centimeter from the target...that accelerates the technique at the last moment and increases power...

But seriously, try both with a partner and see how it goes.

:asian:
chufeng

[Johnathan Napalm]

Power of punching comes from 1. The torque augmented by the pulling back of the other limb, 2 turning of the hip, 3. the thrust delivered by the supporting rear leg, 4. launching of the body forward just before the strike.

When you have the timing luxury, you call in all 4 sources to generate the power needed. If you don't, use what you got. The one who lands the FIRST effective strike, wins.

[chufeng]

Interesting point...


Power of punching comes from 1. The torque augmented by the pulling back of the other limb,

What if you're blocking or parrying with the other limb?
And is it just chambering?

:asian:
chufeng

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Punching with a vertical fist requires a dropped shoulder that aligns the bones of the arm in one continuous line.

Is there any method of stirking with the front of the fist from the hip that doesn't involve a drop in the shoulder?

[GouRonin]

:D

[white dragon]

dude..... ugh.

[GouRonin]

:D

[white dragon]

Is that even you, because one of you is in the chat room with me talking about fistoffury's masturbation habbits.....

[GouRonin]

:D

[white dragon]

you don't say much do you?

[GouRonin]

:D

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Elfan
Is there any method of stirking with the front of the fist from the hip that doesn't involve a drop in the shoulder?

First, I have seen all sorts of folks who not only don't drop their shoulder, but I have seen entirely too many who raise their shoulder when they punch. Usually that is a mistake made by beginners, but I have seen more than a fair share of schools where all of their students (and a number of their instructors) tense their trapezius as they punch, causing a lift/clench of the shoulder.

Second, who is talking about punching from the hip? A technique gains power the farther it travels, but I doubt that most strikes will have the convenience of being able to go the full distance from hip to target. I train my strikes from full chamber, but whenever I fight or work self-defense sequences it seems to me that at least the initial strikes come from an on guard position as opposed to full chamber.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[Elfan]

Second, who is talking about punching from the hip?
That seemed to be the point of the topic. Since we don't all speak the same "language" it seemed to be best to stick to that one starting position that almost anyone with martial arts experience could relate to.



Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I train my strikes from full chamber, but whenever I fight or work self-defense sequences it seems to me that at least the initial strikes come from an on guard position as opposed to full chamber.

Well the shoulder does differnt things depending on where you start but I belive it should always drop if punching from chambered. Just wanted to see if anyone thought differntly on that point. I agree that you wont be starting there most of the time in self defense situations.

[white dragon]

The subject was starting relating to the moves taught in a dojang/dojo, so chambering from the hip is relevant. All very good points guys!

[yilisifu]

The "screw" at the end of the punch (which occurs just prior to impact) accomplishes two main things:

1. It causes the power (which is emitted into the target) to spiral,
and this results in deeper penetration than would occur
otherwise. It acts something akin to the rifling inside the
barrel of a rifle (as opposed to the musket which has no
rifling) in this wise.

2. It dramatically increases the acceleration of the thrust just
before impact, adding more impetus to the blow. Most
novices screw the fist too early. Once the fist is screwed
over, there is a dramatic deceleration and power is greatly
reduced.

The punch is intended to strike with certain knuckles (depending on style) which reduces the surface area over which the power is generated. This results in a strong "focusing" of power onto a relatively small surface.
However, it is crucial that the puncher's wrist, arm, and body are able to withstand the tremendous force of the thrust as it travels back through him/her momentarily...

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by chufeng
Interesting point...

What if you're blocking or parrying with the other limb?
And is it just chambering?

:asian:
chufeng

Of the 4 sources of power, you don't necessary get to employ all of them at any one time. As you mentioned, when you block or parry, then source number 1 is not available. Also if there is a need to avoid telegraphing (ie when you are the one initiating the attack), then you don't chamber. Much like everything else in life, there is a trade-off between maximum speed and maximum power.

[vin2k0]

With the horizontal fist punch you can enable the two prime knuckles much more easily than if the fist was vertical. The two knuckles on the left hand side of the fist are the two which should be punched with, with the fist in the correct position it is very easy to punch with these two knuckles. Also the 'corkscrew' type twist in the hand at the end of the technique provides extra power.

These are my perceptions, be them correct or incorrect. The answer i honestly have no idea of, this will be a question for my sensei to answer in full. :confused:

[vin2k0]

Ah sorry i posted my reply before reading everyone elses. Just read yilisifu's reply and discovered he has said almost exactly the same as i have, just his is more understandable so ignore mine :cool: Great minds think alike though eh yilisifu ;)

[yilisifu]

Thanks!:D

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
hahaaaaa. LMFAO! You have NO idea what ikken hisatsu is about. Not even close! Don't bother to pretend. lol

Well then, I'm sure you do. So please be so kind as to enlighten and educate those of us that are so far below the level of knowledge, know how and experience, that you have attained.

As for pretense, sorry, but you must have mixed up with someone else.

--Dave

:asian:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by yilisifu
...However, it is crucial that the puncher's wrist, arm, and body are able to withstand the tremendous force of the thrust as it travels back through him/her momentarily...

This brings up another good point regarding the 3/4 twist. According to Gray's Anatomy, there is a membrane that covers the radius and the ulna. It is called the interosseous membrane.
When we punch with the 3/4 twist, the bones will bow a little under the strain. As this happens the membrane is supposed to pull tight and distribute the stresses evenly between the bones, to keep them from bowing further, and to maintain the structural integrity of the forearm. The force of the punch should be distributed over the entire length of both bones, so that there is virtually no loss of power or risk of injury.

What is more impressive about this membrane is that it does not transfer stress laterally, but does so diagonally between the bones. As the radius is thicker at the wrist and thinner near the elbow, we find that the ulna thickest near the elbow and thinner near the wrist. The angle of the membrane ensures that the weaker part of each bone is connected to the stronger part of the other bone. The membrane also appears to be designed to work with the natural stress alignments along the arm. When a punch is delivered it is typically force generated along the line of the radius. The pressure on the radius will cause it to move back slightly, but the angle of the membrane works to keep the bone in place and transfer the forces without any play or slack.

Research has shown that during the full twist punc, the radius and the ulna wrap around each other, essentially collapsing onto each other, and the membrane is folded between them. When the membrane is slack, it cannot support the structure of the forearm bones. Instead they bend apart and shift on impact, producing unequal forces in the wrist, and resulting in a loss of punching power and a risk of injury at the weaker bones. The position of the bones during the 3/4 twist punch, is such that optimal tension is maintained throughout the membrane for the duration of the movement. The 3/4 punch also creates equilateral tension in the muscles that turn the wrist. One turns it palm up, the other palm down. The 3/4 punch puts the wrist at about the 1/2 way mark for both of these muscles. The full twist has 1 muscle at full extension and the other fully contracted, creating somewhat of an imbalance, which in turn could allow the wrist to buckle under pressure.

I think for more in depth explanation of this though, RyuShiKan could help out. I belive that Mr. Oyata uses this method of punching in his system.

--Dave
:asian:

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Well then, I'm sure you do. So please be so kind as to enlighten and educate those of us that are so far below the level of knowledge, know how and experience, that you have attained.

As for pretense, sorry, but you must have mixed up with someone else.

--Dave

:asian:

ikken hisatsu is NOT determined by 3/4 nor full twist of your fist, period! Don't make me LMAO.

That 3/4 twist or whatever trick, IS NOT going to do squat to attain Ikken Hisatsu. Which, requires long duration of conditioning of NOT only the fists, but also the whole strike system (ie wrists, arms, elbows, shoulders, hips, trunk, and legs), uusing NOT just the makiwara but also, heavy bags of various materials, and weights, as well as a whole set of routines that strengthen other components of the system. On top of that, you also need to get the mechanics of the strike correct.

That is of course just the guideline. Details are for me (and those who are better men than me, of course) to know and for you to find out. LOL.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
This brings up another good point regarding the 3/4 twist. According to Gray's Anatomy, there is a membrane that covers the radius and the ulna. It is called the interosseous membrane.
When we punch with the 3/4 twist, the bones will bow a little under the strain. As this happens the membrane is supposed to pull tight and distribute the stresses evenly between the bones, to keep them from bowing further, and to maintain the structural integrity of the forearm. The force of the punch should be distributed over the entire length of both bones, so that there is virtually no loss of power or risk of injury.

What is more impressive about this membrane is that it does not transfer stress laterally, but does so diagonally between the bones. As the radius is thicker at the wrist and thinner near the elbow, we find that the ulna thickest near the elbow and thinner near the wrist. The angle of the membrane ensures that the weaker part of each bone is connected to the stronger part of the other bone. The membrane also appears to be designed to work with the natural stress alignments along the arm. When a punch is delivered it is typically force generated along the line of the radius. The pressure on the radius will cause it to move back slightly, but the angle of the membrane works to keep the bone in place and transfer the forces without any play or slack.

Research has shown that during the full twist punc, the radius and the ulna wrap around each other, essentially collapsing onto each other, and the membrane is folded between them. When the membrane is slack, it cannot support the structure of the forearm bones. Instead they bend apart and shift on impact, producing unequal forces in the wrist, and resulting in a loss of punching power and a risk of injury at the weaker bones. The position of the bones during the 3/4 twist punch, is such that optimal tension is maintained throughout the membrane for the duration of the movement. The 3/4 punch also creates equilateral tension in the muscles that turn the wrist. One turns it palm up, the other palm down. The 3/4 punch puts the wrist at about the 1/2 way mark for both of these muscles. The full twist has 1 muscle at full extension and the other fully contracted, creating somewhat of an imbalance, which in turn could allow the wrist to buckle under pressure.

I think for more in depth explanation of this though, RyuShiKan could help out. I belive that Mr. Oyata uses this method of punching in his system.

--Dave
:asian:

Please kindly specify which RESEARCH (name, author, name of journal, date of publication), not just "research has shown"?

Else, it is no different than "scientists say....blah blah blah...".

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by vin2k0
With the horizontal fist punch you can enable the two prime knuckles much more easily than if the fist was vertical. The two knuckles on the left hand side of the fist are the two which should be punched with, with the fist in the correct position it is very easy to punch with these two knuckles. Also the 'corkscrew' type twist in the hand at the end of the technique provides extra power.

These are my perceptions, be them correct or incorrect. The answer i honestly have no idea of, this will be a question for my sensei to answer in full. :confused:

That is not the ONLY way to punch. Wing Chun (and JKD) people would tell you not to punch with the 2 prime knuckles.

[Erkki]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Please kindly specify which RESEARCH (name, author, name of journal, date of publication), not just "research has shown"?

Else, it is no different than "scientists say....blah blah blah...".

He did. He cited Gray's Anatomy as his source. Otherwise known as Anatomy of the Human Body, by Henry Gray. You should be able to find it an Amazon.com, Borders, or any other bookstore. It's a pretty well known book.

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
That is not the ONLY way to punch. Wing Chun (and JKD) people would tell you not to punch with the 2 prime knuckles.

See this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5070

[Johnathan Napalm]

Why? Nothing in that thread is new.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Erkki
He did. He cited Gray's Anatomy as his source. Otherwise known as Anatomy of the Human Body, by Henry Gray. You should be able to find it an Amazon.com, Borders, or any other bookstore. It's a pretty well known book.

Henry Gray's Anatomy draws Neither conclusion NOR finding as asserted/claimed in his post.

[Erkki]

Ahh, I see what you are saying. You meant the part about research on the 3/4 twist punch, not the part about the membrane on the bones of the arm. I thought you were talking about the post as a whole, since you quoted it entirely. My bad.

[chufeng]

Regarding the anatomy and physiology question...

Everything that D.Cobb said is accurate EXCEPT that... when the two bones cross and the connective tissue relaxes...they actually support each other, hence, there is no need for the connective tissue "splint." ... so, that does not fully explain WHY the 3/4 twist is better...

More importantly, when one fully rotates the fist, the shoulder is isolated...it is not "connected" to the body and the force of the blow stops in the shoulder (which means that the arm and all of its parts have to absorb the shock)...The weakest point will suffer the most damage...frequently the wrist, then the shoulder, and lastly, the elbow...so the 3/4 twist is still a stronger technique.

That said...if the fully rotated punch is on the lunging side, and the alignment is right...you can over-rotate the technique and maintain proper allignment...that means going beyond 180 degrees...

The complexities of a simple punch are amazing, aren't they?
That is why one should stick with a system until he/she begins to understand WHY things are done the way they are.

:asian:
chufeng

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm

That is of course just the guideline. Details are for me (and those who are better men than me, of course) to know and for you to find out. LOL.

So how do I do that if the more enlightened amongst us act so childish, as to play these silly games?

:confused:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Please kindly specify which RESEARCH (name, author, name of journal, date of publication), not just "research has shown"?

Else, it is no different than "scientists say....blah blah blah...".

Um, that is for me to know and you to find out!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Now that is funny!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh haha God that's funny!

--Dave

:rofl:

[vin2k0]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
That is not the ONLY way to punch. Wing Chun (and JKD) people would tell you not to punch with the 2 prime knuckles.

I'm sure there are certain MA's that say not to, i was only referring to my art, i apologise...

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Um, that is for me to know and you to find out!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Now that is funny!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh haha God that's funny!

--Dave

:rofl:

Easy there. No need to get hysterical there. Afterall, it is not the same as your BS claim that a 3/4 twist of your fist would give you ikken hisatsu. :rolleyes: I am still at a lost as to how you could come up with that claim. So I went back to take a second look at your post.


Originally posted by D.Cobb
... I have felt the difference, between the full twist, with high intensity, and the 3/4 twist with low intensity and the one that knocked me down and across the room was the 3/4. I hope to God I never feel it at full intensity.
....

Now that is FUNNY! LMAO! You can't take a 3/4 twist punch?? :D You sissy!! lol That proves exactly... NOTHING.. about the 3/4 twist. It only proves that YOU suck! lol See, if everyone cannot take the 3/4 twist, now that might mean something meaningful. Soooo, allow me to borrow a line from RoboCop where the waiter asked the dumb robber who robbed a donut shop filled with COPS, "How does it feel to be a rocket sicentist?" LMAO !!

[Johnathan Napalm]

Oh BTW, care to enlighten us what you claim [or pretend] to know about ikken hisatsu? ;) LOL

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Oh BTW, care to enlighten us what you claim [or pretend] to know about ikken hisatsu? ;) LOL

Well, since you are setting yourself up by your comments as something of an expert on the subject, perhaps you could proffer some inkling of your thoughts on the subject...?

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Well, since you are setting yourself up by your comments as something of an expert on the subject, perhaps you could proffer some inkling of your thoughts on the subject...?

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

Why don't you JUST SIMPLY scroll up a bid and read about it in my previous posts then?

[Matt Stone]

Well, the best you could manage, it seems, is to point out what is painfully obvious to some and present it to others as some special insight.

You must train the entire "striking system." Thanks for opening the doors to secret knowledge on that one. I thought I just had to train my index finger alone...

"There is a trade-off between maximum speed and maximum power." Did you come up with that yourself, or did someone help you with it?

Different styles will prefer different methods of striking. Wow. You really broke the bank with that lightning bolt of brilliance.

So that pretty much sums up what you have posted so far... Care to elaborate further, or is that the best you can do? Or maybe the best you are capable of is insulting others in a vain effort to somehow imply you are better than they are... You insult, you call names, but you offer little in the way of constructive commentary. Pretty soon you will find your way into history (of a sort) by being the first person I put on my ignore list...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
about the 3/4 twist. It only proves that YOU suck!


No sorry, you must have me mixed up with your boyfriend.
I wonder if, you walk as funny as you talk....

:rofl: :rofl:

[Johnathan Napalm]

Enough of BSing. Last call: Are you gonna enlighten us with your knowledge on Ikken Hisatsu or shall we just ikken hisatsu the issue, huh?

Remember this: It is below a real martial artist not being able to admit he is wrong.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Well, the best you could manage, it seems, is to point out what is painfully obvious to some and present it to others as some special insight.

You must train the entire "striking system." Thanks for opening the doors to secret knowledge on that one. I thought I just had to train my index finger alone...

"There is a trade-off between maximum speed and maximum power." Did you come up with that yourself, or did someone help you with it?

Different styles will prefer different methods of striking. Wow. You really broke the bank with that lightning bolt of brilliance.

So that pretty much sums up what you have posted so far... Care to elaborate further, or is that the best you can do? Or maybe the best you are capable of is insulting others in a vain effort to somehow imply you are better than they are... You insult, you call names, but you offer little in the way of constructive commentary. Pretty soon you will find your way into history (of a sort) by being the first person I put on my ignore list...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:


I suppose I can elaborate further but I decide Not to respond to your BSing.

Ikken Hisatsu is Kyokushin's calling card. I see no need for me to justify myself to anyone. If you don't care for my posts, either DON'T read them and Don't respond, OR please DO put me on your ignore list. That goes for anyone who feels the same. I couldn't care less, one way or the other. lol :)

On the topic of Ikken Hisatsu, so far I am the only one who has post anything material. I am still waiting for D.Cobb to put his money where his mouth is.

Since you see fit to comment on Ikken Hisatsu, I pressume you are qualify to enlighten the readers on this topic? Why don't you post you insight on the Ikken Hisatsu, instead of things that are of no value to the readers?

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1 .....imply you are better than they are... ....

Judging by the quality of the posts.....hmmmmm..... ;)

Judging by the pics posted, I am sure HELL NOT AS FAT AND UGLY! LMAO !!! :D :D :D :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: (Note: I am referring to the guys. All the ladies are mighty fine. It does not take them courage to post their attractive pose. But the GUYS!! You GUYS have GUTS!!! ..and.... Literally too! :rofl: )

C'mon! since you asked! How the hell can I pass up this chance to LMAO ???:rofl:

[Erkki]

Johnathan, you said:


Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Remember this: It is below a real martial artist not being able to admit he is wrong.

Then, in response to Yiliquan1, you said:


Judging by the quality of the posts.....hmmmmm..... ;)

Judging by the pics posted, I am sure HELL NOT AS FAT AND UGLY! LMAO !!! :D :D :D :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: (Note: I am referring to the guys. All the ladies are mighty fine. It does not take them courage to post their attractive pose. But the GUYS!! You GUYS have GUTS!!! ..and.... Literally too! :rofl: )

C'mon! since you asked! How the hell can I pass up this chance to LMAO ???:rofl:

I submit that it is also below a real martial artist to make a comment as rude as that to a fellow practitioner, whether you like them or not. Yes, it did take courage for them to post their pics on here, with the belief that there was enough honor among the members here that someone like you wouldn't deride them for what you perceive to be shortcomings.
I sincerely hope you are just joking around. With all the LOL and LMAO you do in your posts, I can't tell anymore. Please clarify this for us.

Thanks.

[chufeng]

JN,

You brought up Ikken Hisatsu...others have asked that you clarify what you mean...

You refuse...I'm not surprised.

Then you make personal insults on other members...

It is ironic that YOU point out the qualities of a martial artsist.

You keep proving that I was wrong to place any value on your commentary...maybe when I see something positive and constructive from you, I will respond to any of your queries...

I suppose that this forum is nothing but a big joke to you...
Unfortunately, you detract from some of the serious dialogue that does take place...and you demonstrate really lousy behavior for those beginning their martial journey.

:asian:
chufeng

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Enough of BSing. Last call: Are you gonna enlighten us with your knowledge on Ikken Hisatsu or shall we just ikken hisatsu the issue, huh?

Remember this: It is below a real martial artist not being able to admit he is wrong.

My understanding of the term is as I have said before, One Strike, One Kill.
If I am wrong that's ok. If I am right, then that's ok too.

However, I am not the one throwing insults, in an effort to get a point across. If you believe I am wrong, then as I have said before, please enlighten me as to where and how, then I can benefit from your (obviously) vast knowledge, and will have no excuse for making the same mistake again.

In more simple terms, PUT UP OR SHUT UP , you are truly starting to bore me.

--Dave

:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I suppose I can elaborate further but I decide Not to respond to your BSing.

Your replies contain nothing more than mocking comments aimed at taking cheap shots at the expense of those who post here. You make inflammatory and poorly supported comments which ultimately amount to nothing more than trolling, and then proclaim the comments of those who ask for clarification "BSing?" Boy, you sure do have a pretty high opinion of yourself...


Ikken Hisatsu is Kyokushin's calling card. I see no need for me to justify myself to anyone.

You post comments on an open, public forum, alleging your own authority in the area, yet feel no need to explain your comments to anyone that asks. Yet again, the mark of a troll...


If you don't care for my posts, either DON'T read them and Don't respond, OR please DO put me on your ignore list. That goes for anyone who feels the same. I couldn't care less, one way or the other. lol :)

But because of the large number of relative beginners in MA, I find it hard not to take you to task and expose your assinine behavior for what it is... There are enough impressionables here who will potentially get a sour taste in their mouths by seeing how such self-professed experts like yourself behave. I want to ensure they realize folks like you are in the minority...


On the topic of Ikken Hisatsu, so far I am the only one who has post anything material. I am still waiting for D.Cobb to put his money where his mouth is.

And we are waiting for you to elaborate on your thusfar basic and unimpressive comments on what qualifies for Ikken Hisatsu. So far all you have done is make general comments about what is required just to make your punch satisfactory... You are speaking as if you possess special knowledge, but so far even the most basic students of a good school will see that all you have presented are the rudimentary qualifications for developing an acceptable punch.


Since you see fit to comment on Ikken Hisatsu, I pressume you are qualify to enlighten the readers on this topic? Why don't you post you insight on the Ikken Hisatsu, instead of things that are of no value to the readers?

Two things - One, I never said I was "fit to comment" on Ikken Hisatsu. I asked you to qualify your comments further because they were lacking in depth and sufficient explanation. Second, right back at ya... When you start posting something other than the drivel you normally do (which is of no value to readers), then perhaps I will too... :shrug:

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[Jonathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Erkki
Johnathan, you said:

Then, in response to Yiliquan1, you said:

I submit that it is also below a real martial artist to make a comment as rude as that to a fellow practitioner, whether you like them or not. Yes, it did take courage for them to post their pics on here, with the belief that there was enough honor among the members here that someone like you wouldn't deride them for what you perceive to be shortcomings.
I sincerely hope you are just joking around. With all the LOL and LMAO you do in your posts, I can't tell anymore. Please clarify this for us.

Thanks.

Of course it is a JOKE! DUH! :rolleyes:

You people are so uptight that it is unbelievable. oh well.. lol

So long. Have a good life. It has been fun!! LMFAO!! :D

[Jonathan Napalm]

Originally posted by chufeng
JN,

You brought up Ikken Hisatsu...others have asked that you clarify what you mean...

You refuse...I'm not surprised.

Then you make personal insults on other members...

It is ironic that YOU point out the qualities of a martial artsist.

You keep proving that I was wrong to place any value on your commentary...maybe when I see something positive and constructive from you, I will respond to any of your queries...

I suppose that this forum is nothing but a big joke to you...
Unfortunately, you detract from some of the serious dialogue that does take place...and you demonstrate really lousy behavior for those beginning their martial journey.

:asian:
chufeng


Ikken Hisatsu is one punch certain kill. Duh! I didn't hear anyone asking about what it means other than D'Cup there BSing about full turn wouldn't make it but 3/4 turn would. :rolleyes:

"....I suppose that this forum is nothing but a big joke to you..."

I thought a lot more of it at the begining, but unfortunately , it certainly has demonstrated itself to be a big joke!! :D :D But it sure worths quite a lot of LMAO's .....:D lol

Anyway.... have a good life! :D

[Jonathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Your replies contain nothing more than mocking comments aimed at taking cheap shots at the expense of those who post here. You make inflammatory and poorly supported comments which ultimately amount to nothing more than trolling, and then proclaim the comments of those who ask for clarification "BSing?" Boy, you sure do have a pretty high opinion of yourself...

You post comments on an open, public forum, alleging your own authority in the area, yet feel no need to explain your comments to anyone that asks. Yet again, the mark of a troll...


But because of the large number of relative beginners in MA, I find it hard not to take you to task and expose your assinine behavior for what it is... There are enough impressionables here who will potentially get a sour taste in their mouths by seeing how such self-professed experts like yourself behave. I want to ensure they realize folks like you are in the minority...



And we are waiting for you to elaborate on your thusfar basic and unimpressive comments on what qualifies for Ikken Hisatsu. So far all you have done is make general comments about what is required just to make your punch satisfactory... You are speaking as if you possess special knowledge, but so far even the most basic students of a good school will see that all you have presented are the rudimentary qualifications for developing an acceptable punch.


Two things - One, I never said I was "fit to comment" on Ikken Hisatsu. I asked you to qualify your comments further because they were lacking in depth and sufficient explanation. Second, right back at ya... When you start posting something other than the drivel you normally do (which is of no value to readers), then perhaps I will too... :shrug:

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:


You are simply sore b/c I rebutted your mumbo jumbo on several ocassions. In doing so, I derailed your attempt to sound knowledgeable and all. It is sad. B/c I did think highly of you. But you have turned out to be quite different than the knowledgeable and rational man image that you have tried to portrait. The reason I feel sad is I really don't think you are a bad person. But your lack of ability to judge has only betrayed something else about you.....

I sure hope the service men and women whose lives and career may be affected your performance don't get screwed over by your personal issues, whatever that may be........ ego or sense of self-inadequacy.....

Nevertheless, have a good life. :D Lol it has been fun . Like I told MOB, looking at you folks , has indeed made me feel a lot better about myself! :D LMFAO !!

I told Kaith that not been able to post here sure as hell wouldn't make squat little difference in my life. Except may be the few chances of LMFAO at you people! lol :D

[Rich Parsons]

Please NO One reply to Johnathon Napalm until it can be determined if it is him or not.

Thank You


Rich Parsons
MT Moderator

[Jonathan Napalm]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
My understanding of the term is as I have said before, One Strike, One Kill.
If I am wrong that's ok. If I am right, then that's ok too.

However, I am not the one throwing insults, in an effort to get a point across. If you believe I am wrong, then as I have said before, please enlighten me as to where and how, then I can benefit from your (obviously) vast knowledge, and will have no excuse for making the same mistake again.

In more simple terms, PUT UP OR SHUT UP , you are truly starting to bore me.

--Dave

:asian:

SO, you are eating your BS assertion about the 3/4 turn crap then? :D

Should have admitted long ago that you NEVER know Jack S@#$% about Ikken Hisatsu. :D LMAO

[Bob Hubbard]

Admin Note

Please note mr Napalm, or whatever he may use is no longer welcome here. We have banned him indefinately, and will activly block him if he attempts to access us again.

-- Bob Hubbard

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Admin Note

Please note mr Napalm, or whatever he may use is no longer welcome here. We have banned him indefinately, and will activly block him if he attempts to access us again.

-- Bob Hubbard

Bravo!

Encore, Encore

[Master of Blades]

"Ding Dong the Witch is dead Which old Witch The Wicked Witch Ding Dong the Wicked Witch is Dead"


:rofl:


But now who are me and Cali gonna gang up on! :(


:rofl:

[Rich Parsons]

Please keep the discussion on topic and be polite and respectful of others.

Thank You

:asian:

Rich Parsons
MT Moderator

[Elfan]

As I understand it the full rotation of the first to horizontal is the last thing that happens. Thus the fist isn't traveling forward anymore. Woudn't that necesitate making contact sometime before full rotation and continueing to rotate thru the person? So a "horizontal punch" makes contact before it is horizontal.

Comments?

[yilisifu]

No, the fist continues to move forward following rotation although the punch is quickly decelerating (as opposed to accelerating). The idea is to make impact AT THE MOMENT the twist is completed. Timing is very important.

[Elfan]

Hmm in that case how much penetration do you get?

[yilisifu]

Not a great deal, but penetration isn't the main emphasis of this kind of blow. Delivery of shock is. A very small measure of penetration is all that is necessary to cause terrible internal damage.

There are several kinds of upper-body blows:

1. Shocking: stops just after impact. These do not seek deep penetration, nor do they snap back. They cause internal shock and damage.

2. Snap Back: i.e., backfist strikes. Immediately upon impact, they whip back quickly. They are best suited to striking hard, bony surfaces such as the head and face where the flesh is pulled tight over the bone because they will cause bone to shatter.

3. Piercing: i.e., spear-hand techniques. Although they do not literally pierce the flesh, they penetrate into the flesh and cause terrible internal damage (much as the end of a staff would do). They are best used against fleshy, softer targets.

4. Smashing: These are akin to smashing something with a sledgehammer or baseball bat. Elbow and forearm strikes are good examples.

[Disco]

Watch the people that do breaking demo's. You will NEVER see any twisting or rotation of the wrist. Re: you will more than likely break the wrist. As stated by several, the word TIMING came into play when dealing with the wrist rotation. Just another factor that does contribute to injuries. Try this experiment. Make a fist and extend your arm then measure the distance from shoulder to knuckle (the fist is horizontal). Now do the same with the fist vertical. You could see anywhere from 2 to 3 inches difference in length. Anybody box? Aside from the fact that the hands and wrists are taped, I have never seen or heard of a boxer twisting the wrist on impact. When I finnally convinced some of my transfer students from other styles, they were pleasently surprised to find that their punches were stronger and faster and there were a lot less injuries. A side note: Anybody ever see Bruce Lee do that demo of his 2" punch? There was no wrist rotation. Best way to determine for yourself, go punch a HEAVY BAG both ways. :asian:

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Disco
Try this experiment. Make a fist and extend your arm then measure the distance from shoulder to knuckle (the fist is horizontal). Now do the same with the fist vertical. You could see anywhere from 2 to 3 inches difference in length.

Starting from where? The hip? What differnce do you anticipate we will see?

[yilisifu]

Disco -
You must be too young to remember Muhammed Ali's historic fight - knocked out the reigning world heavyweight with a punch which TWISTED very much like a corkscrew punch at the end.

So much for the boxing question.

Bruce Lee did not twist his wrist when punching primarily because Wing Chun doesn't use a twisting punch. The snap comes from a vertical action in the wrist....

[Matt Stone]

I have heard the argument for the alleged additional length of the arm when positioned for a horizontal punch vs. a vertical punch, but the only way in which I gain any length is through extension of the shoulder...

If I stand with my back to a wall, extending my arm out fully with a horizontal fist position, then rotate my hand to a vertical fist position, I notice absolutely no change in the length of my arm.

I doubt the veracity of that particular claim.

As for breaking with punches, while I usually break with palm slaps, when I have broken with punches they have always had proper techinque, i.e. rotation. Never had a problem with it. I would theorize that those who display difficulties in supporting their punches likely have very weak wrists and should perhaps condition their arms prior to attempting something that structurally they are not yet ready for...

Interesting viewpoint, but I respectfully disagree...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[chufeng]

an observation...

the breaking demos I've witnessed come in two flavors...those that intend on showing skill and those that intend on "WOWING" a crowd.

Those that use focus and intent in their breaking are obvious...and not too impressive (unless you underrstand what just took place)...those that "WOW" the crowds don't use anything like REAL technique to break the doctored materials.

Pretending to focus...focus...focus...focus...and then jump straighgt up in the air and come down with a totally different technique with nothing but body weight behind it is NOT my idea of a good demonstration of breaking skill.

If I took the head off of a ballpean hammer and laid it down on the same stack of wood (with spacers) or cement (with spacers) and asked ANYONE who weighed 120 pounds, or more to jump up and land on that hammer...I'd see the same results...

:asian:
chufeng

[Disco]

Boxing - I remember Ali and the infamous punch. Mr. showman. Only person ever in boxing to my knowledge to throw such a punch, doubious at least, plus again hands and wrist taped. One example does not undermine the fact that boxers don't / are not taught to punch like that.

Breakers - If you are taught to do the 1/2-3/4 twist punch and you practice it and your wrists are strong etc, etc, then I salute you. The vast majority of people either can't or won't take the extended time to learn to punch like that, plus the fact that it's not a natural way to punch. Hense the training aspect to perfect it. I personally have found that I have more power and extension to my punch without the twisting motion. Perhaps the extension comes from the angle of the elbow. Many, including myself find that the elbow is bent when striking with the twisting motion as opposed to being much straighter with the vertical punch. Just by the shear vurture of the twisting motion, you fist is coming in on varying angles. This will not matter all that much if you hit something soft (stomach), but if you hit something hard at the wrong angle, you know what will happen. This is only meant to offer info to avoid hurting yourself. If, I repeat, If you perfer to use the twisting punch and feel secure with your technique. Bang away and I wish you good health and many years of pain free training. :asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Disco
If you are taught to do the 1/2-3/4 twist punch and you practice it and your wrists are strong etc, etc, then I salute you.

No need to salute... Just train your wrists and you will be able to do the same. Even if you don't wish to punch in that fashion, I would recommend you train your wrists anyway, to prevent injury in the event the opponent zigs when you think he is going to zag, changing the distance and timing of your strike unexpectedly...


The vast majority of people either can't or won't take the extended time to learn to punch like that, plus the fact that it's not a natural way to punch.

I agree that it isn't particularly the most natural motion. However, for those who complain that the technique is invalid because so many can't perform it or refuse to train themselves to be able to, I would say that their argument doesn't hold water. If you choose to punch differently because you like it better, that's fine. At least there is a rationale to the decision. But saying that your choice is based on the difficulty of the technique erodes the quality of a person's art to the core. If everyone simply bowed out of training because something was too difficult, imagine the state of martial arts overall!



Hense the training aspect to perfect it. I personally have found that I have more power and extension to my punch without the twisting motion. Perhaps the extension comes from the angle of the elbow. Many, including myself find that the elbow is bent when striking with the twisting motion as opposed to being much straighter with the vertical punch. Just by the shear vurture of the twisting motion, you fist is coming in on varying angles. This will not matter all that much if you hit something soft (stomach), but if you hit something hard at the wrong angle, you know what will happen. This is only meant to offer info to avoid hurting yourself. If, I repeat, If you perfer to use the twisting punch and feel secure with your technique. Bang away and I wish you good health and many years of pain free training. :asian:

Again, at least you base your decision on a reasonable basis - you like punching that way. Personally, I don't worry overly much about how my strike lands... I have big enough wrists and forearms, plus the conditioning I have done, I can pretty much smack anything on the human body without too much concern.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[yilisifu]

Indeed! Some articles about Ali's match noted the "strange" punch which dropped his opponent like a rag doll. It was unique to them.

Just because boxers aren't taught it doesn't mean it's ineffective. They tend to punch with the last two or three knuckles (due to the nature of the glove). The last two knuckles are weaker than the first two and break more easily. Thus, the term "boxer's break."

One of the purposes of training is to strengthen the wrists so they can absorb the power generated by one's own thrust. This is true of any form of punching.

No, it isn't a "natural" way to punch. Most martial arts movements are not "natural" and have to be learned. That is the purpose (one of them) of training; to MAKE THEM NATURAL. If we only used what felt natural, we'd be very limited indeed...and our techniques would be rather weak since strenuous training is required to teach us how to make powerful techniques.

Yiliquan 1 put it very well.....:)

[Matt Stone]

Yiliquan 1 put it very well.....:)

Not even close, Sifu... I just said what I felt.

In Yiliquan, we don't block per se, but what we term our "blocks" amount to methods by which the incoming technique is gradually redirected away from its intended target. Instead of directly opposing an incoming punch with a hard, smashing inside block, we turn as we do it, timing the contact to guide the incoming strike away from us as it gradually decellerates. Then we beat his a$$... :D

But I like to bash the heck out of the bad guy. I like to think of my strikes as punishment. Sure, sure, kill in one blow... Whatever. I picture my hands as hammers and try to smack chunks off the guy. When I block, I like to use the blocking movement as a strike against the bad guy's limbs. He will find out, in short order, that if his resolve is wanting, he shouldn't toss a second strike my way.

That is in direct contradiction to the "orthodox" method of blocking in Yiliquan, but I do it because I choose to. Same as Disco choosing to punch a certain way. I am still able to block the way Yiliquan dictates, and I am sure that Disco could train his punches so that his ability to strike with a rotating wrist would be just fine.

But I still don't know what the hell I'm talking about... Not by a long shot.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[chufeng]

YiLiQuan1,

Actually, the smashing blocks are very much a part of BaiXingQuan; we just don't emphasize them because YiLi's principles use a more "get out of the way" approach.

I think that using the smashing block actually requires a greater timing skill, IF we apply the principle of lateral return...
We aren't interested in STOPPING the attacking limb; rather, we make it miss and apply the strike to it as it passes (much like a bull-fighter avoids the horns of a charging bull).

...and, you actually know more than you think...

:asian:
chufeng

[yilisifu]

So there!:D