Being in shape

[terryl965]

Does this really matter in the Martial Arts, I mean I have seen some pretty heavey and out of shape dudes that could kick the living **** out of someone. So how much truth is in it.

[Twin Fist]

in reality?

no, you DONT need to be in perfect shape to defend yourself.

it's a good idea to keep yourself in decent shape, but no it isnt required

[CrimsonPhoenix]

I agree with Twin Fist. I know some people in my class who are not in the best shape, but I certainly wouldn't want to be standing toe to toe with them if I could help it.

But being in shape does help, I think. I can certainly say that if I was in better shape, a lot of things would be easier to do. For instance: sparring endurance. I could definitely use more in that area.

[seasoned]

Does this really matter in the Martial Arts, I mean I have seen some pretty heavey and out of shape dudes that could kick the living **** out of someone. So how much truth is in it.

Big burly truck drivers come to mind. I think it could be rather easy to under estimate someone that looks heavy with a big belly. Bouncers are another group of individuals that in some cases could steam roll through many people at the same time. Give these people some techniques and they could be down right dangerous.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Being in shape is not a requirement.

But you might as well be in top shape if you are going to defend for your life.

I know plenty of overweight smokers who could do some damage.

Now that being the case if I am going up against someone who can do damage out of shape I would like to be at peak when dealing with them.

Another factor that may come into play is the ability be it learned or innate to use your body movement correctly.

So even if you are out of shape by applying correct alignment,structure,timing and distancing you can still out do someone physically fit.

I think alot of factors come into play but if all things are equal the one who has the will,strength and endurance is the one who most likely will win.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Not a requirement for self defense but a really good idea.
Being in shape gives you one more advantage. That
advantage may be what you need in the moment. Having
said that though I know several really big people who
would be a handful whether they are in shape or not. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif
Never underestimate anyone!!! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[still learning]

Hello, Where being in shape and condition is on the REAL STREETS...maybe facing more than one person...adrenline and blood flowing fast....it is easy to run out of breathe here?

Need to run from a hand gun or knifer ? ......being out of shape? ...will get you kill or beaten up?

If a pack of wild dogs chasing you? or a gang? ....will you be able to escape?

Off course most of us will never face these challenges......

Two keys to a true martial artist? .....ONE is being great condition...second is building skills to become a part of you!

Sure there will times...you will need only a few seconds to defend yourself....BUT?

What happens if the fight last longer?

....funny building condition and muscles...is like pumping an air pump....once you stop...the air in the body starts to run out..

Today I use an electric pump........Aloha

[Makalakumu]

Big burly truck drivers come to mind. I think it could be rather easy to under estimate someone that looks heavy with a big belly. Bouncers are another group of individuals that in some cases could steam roll through many people at the same time. Give these people some techniques and they could be down right dangerous.

I like to stay in shape so I can out run those dudes...

[IcemanSK]

Not a requirement for self defense but a really good idea.
Being in shape gives you one more advantage. That
advantage may be what you need in the moment. Having
said that though I know several really big people who
would be a handful whether they are in shape or not. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif
Never underestimate anyone!!! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif


I've got to agree with Brian here. Another reason is simply for one's health. One doesn't have to be in "good shape" to kick butt, but I still want to be for my own health. (I'm not getting any younger).

I watch folks like Jhoon Rhee who can do 100's of push-ups & is still so flexible into his 70's. I'd rather be closer to that than to not be.

[Kacey]

Any person who trains regularly (or does any other exercise regularly) is in better shape than any person of similar build who does not - so right there, no matter what shape the person is in, the person is in better shape to defend him/herself than if the person didn't train.

As far as fitness in general - I would hypothesize that a person with more knowledge and less fitness would do better in defending him/herself than a person with less knowledge and more fitness - but a person with more knowledge and more fitness would do better than either.

[hkfuie]

As I get older, I get a thrill that I can still do things that other people my age can't.

My kung Fu teacher is in his late 40s and so sleekly muscular and more flexible than I. I find that inspiring.

So, whether or not I have to stay in great shape for self-defense, I like to just because it feels good. (Except my ankle...and those bruises...and that shoulder thing...)

[myusername]

I think being in shape is very important when it comes to self defence. Not being one of those people Terry is referring to that can naturally just obliterate some one regardless of fitness or training I feel that I need to get into shape to even up the odds a little. Endurance and being able to fight tired are good attributes to have in a self defence situation. Flexibility may also be an issue if out of shape.

That is not to say people should get into shape before learning a MA! You don't have to be in good shape to learn, the fitness will develop through learning.

[Andrew Green]

I'm going to say yes.

Ok, some out of shape guys can still scrap pretty good for a short period, but that's not the question.

Martial arts is something people do a few times a week and is a physical activity. If a person is training regullarly they will be in decent shape. If they are not, they aren't really training that hard.

It's just like any other sport, if you play soccer 3 times a week, every week, and are still in horrible shape, chances are "playing soccer" amounts to more standing around talking about playing soccer then actually playing soccer.

Coaches are not always in great shape, but they aren't soccer players, they are coaches.

I don't think a person could call themselves a soccer player or basketball player or anything else, then they could call themself a martial artists if they are not in at least decent shape.

[Twin Fist]

in that case.......

ed parker? not a martial artist
ron chapel? not a martial artist
mas oyama? not a martial artist
funikoshi? not a martial artist


see the error in your thinking ?

[donna]

While it is the desired state to be in shape, the reality of life is that it is not always possible to be at your peak, so that is why good technique and practical self defence is so important.
For a woman, there are times of your life that you are more vulnerable. For example , when you are pregnant. Or when you are run down with sleep deprivation looking after children.
For a Man there are times when you may be ill or have an injury, or be suffering with sleep deprivation from looking after children.(we can hope:))
That is not to mention the effects of old age , which make us more vulnerable.
A good martial art should take into account all these factors and give us techniques that work for all states of fitness.
As martial artists we should always strive to be as fit as we can, but it is reassuring to know that we have some techniques that we can use when needed not matter what our physical state.

[Big Don]

HEY! ROUND is a SHAPE!There is a certain dark and twisted pleasure to being a big fat guy and really whuppin' some in perfect shape guy, but, yeah being in shape is beneficial if only for health reasons.

[hkfuie]

It's just like any other sport, if you play soccer 3 times a week, every week, and are still in horrible shape, chances are "playing soccer" amounts to more standing around talking about playing soccer then actually playing soccer.

Or posting on a forum board! (joking! Don't pelt me with rotten eggs)

But what about those masters who are so skilled, they can throw football players across a room with the tiniest flick of the wrist (which of course begins at the tantien)? No muscle! It's not about muscle. Right or wrong?

If right, you can be out of shape if you are masterfully skilled.

I am not masterfully skilled yet...so I gotta do pushups and run if I want to feel capable and safe.

Then again, self-defense entails lots of skills that have nothing to do with the physical...

My mind is spinning...the room is spinning...

Oh, Terry said martial arts, not self-defense. Does it matter in martial arts?

[terryl965]

Or posting on a forum board! (joking! Don't pelt me with rotten eggs)

But what about those masters who are so skilled, they can throw football players across a room with the tiniest flick of the wrist (which of course begins at the tantien)? No muscle! It's not about muscle. Right or wrong?

If right, you can be out of shape if you are masterfully skilled.

I am not masterfully skilled yet...so I gotta do pushups and run if I want to feel capable and safe.

Then again, self-defense entails lots of skills that have nothing to do with the physical...

My mind is spinning...the room is spinning...

Oh, Terry said martial arts, not self-defense. Does it matter in martial arts?

Yes for Martial Arts not for self defense does one need to be in shape to really learn.

[Archangel M]

When the belief that all you have to do is throw those 5-10 seconds of perfect technique and you opponent will be defeated gets tossed out the window you will damn well be sure that fitness is important. Of course it will then be too late.

All this talk about overweight truck drivers....are not big, strong, fitness buffs just as capable? And stronger, faster and with better endurance?

Good fitness training teaches working through pain and exhaustion. Pushing your body physically and your brain to keep going. Things that can only help your SD.

Look at some overweight cops. Would you say that being in shape is important for them? Obviously that are doing the job without it...its not important...until it is.

[SA_BJJ]

You need to be in shape if you want to be able to be competitive in BJJ...now Karate and TKD not so much...but thats not to say you shouldnt be.

[hkfuie]

You don't have to be in shape to compete in TKD??? Now, I really do not agree with you on that one. :) Depends on who you are competing aganist...

Goes back to who you are defending yourself against. Same thing.

But then the question is...do you have to be physically fit to train in martial arts?

I, personally, would welcome anyone to train with me who wants to learn and is someone I can trust, or someone who can grow into someone I can trust, or someone who can fool me into trusting them, I guess.

:)

I don't think I need to exclude anyone. I think martial arts training has been great for my personal development and I think it could have a positive influence on anyone who is willing to learn and grow.

You don't have to be fit to learn martial arts. You don't have to be fit to learn techniques.

[Deaf Smith]

Does this really matter in the Martial Arts, I mean I have seen some pretty heavey and out of shape dudes that could kick the living **** out of someone. So how much truth is in it.

Being in shape matters. But one can go overboard. We all know jump spinning heal kicks are uses, uh, very very rarely. We also know a fast simple punch or kick, if timed right, will flatten a guy more often than not.

While I've seen a few 'gravity challenged' people do well, I've see far far more of them not do so well.

Reasonable fitness is a must. Super muscled like Van Damne looked in Blood Sport, while not necessary, sure looked good and just might stop a fight from even starting!

Deaf

[KenpoTex]

I think strength and conditioning are far more important than most are willing to admit. I also think (and this is probably going to get me in trouble) that many people study the martial-arts because they have been sucked into the mindset that "this doesn't require much strength to be effective," or "with technique or system XYZ you'll be able to neutralize your opponent's size/strength advantage.

Yes, training can trump some level of size/strength disparity, but if the attacker has a significant size/strength advantage and even a little skill, you're in big trouble.

I guess it really depends on what you're training for...it your goal to be the most effective fighter that you can be, or are you just doing it as a hobby or to play tag in the ring?

just my $0.02

[Makalakumu]

With many martial arts, there can be some downtime, where you are doing some sitting and learning while technique is described. IMO, you shouldn't get to a point where you never break a sweat. When I teach class, I make sure that my students are getting rocked. We don't do calisthetics, we do TSD and it IS a good workout.

That said, physical fitness is very important, IMO. So important, in fact, that I think there should be fitness requirement for martial arts. I see nothing wrong with making it a testing requirement. In fact, I've even experienced a situation at a boxing club where I wasn't allowed to even get through the door without proving that I could run 3 miles in 25 minutes.

I'm not saying that you can't be gravitationally challenged and still do martial arts. What I'm saying is that for some martial arts, for how I teach, you need to have a good level of physical fitness or it just won't work out.

[Drac]

Does this really matter in the Martial Arts, I mean I have seen some pretty heavey and out of shape dudes that could kick the living **** out of someone. So how much truth is in it.

I think it does't mean squat..When I attended the state sponsered school to obtain my instructors permit, I was the oldest and heaviest officer there..The few snickers I heard vanished when I managed to drop some of the younger and better in shape attendees during the first 2 days...

[takadadojokeith]

Does this really matter in the Martial Arts, I mean I have seen some pretty heavey and out of shape dudes that could kick the living **** out of someone. So how much truth is in it.

I think former UFC champ Pat Miletich summed it up best. "I'd rather fight a great fighter in bad shape than a bad fighter in great shape".

[Brian R. VanCise]

As I said before above being in shape is definitely to your favor. So because it is something we can control we should strive to be in simply great shape. That in turn does not mean that someone who is not in good shape cannot defend themselves. Be really careful going down that road or you might meet someone in terrible shape but has the ability to open up a can of your know what. I have a long time student coming over today who lives out of state. I would not classify him as being in great shape at the moment. However, he is a man mountain and people who would over look that would do so at their own peril.:erg:

Still being in shape is a huge advantage so I would always strive to be in the best possible shape that I could be!!! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Makalakumu]

Also, sometimes the whole definition of "in-shape" relative. For example, out here in Hawaii, a lot of the hugest meanest guys look like they are massive slabs of fat. However, I meet these guys every morning beating the pavement and working on cardio. A lot of these guys take martial arts too. I've met them in the studios. For example, the guy that runs the local BJJ club is 6'3" and about 280. He's a black belt under Relson Gracie and he's got the classic Hawaiian "round" look. Kimo will kick your ass though. No ifs ands or butts about it...and he is not "shredded" like so many of us expect people who are "in-shape" to be.

[hkfuie]

Well, I am a sumo fan, so I believe what Maunakumu is saying.

But the question was, do you have to be in shape to train in martial arts?

I don't think you can do martial arts and not improve your fitness level.

But, for me, I am not motivated to stay in shape for self-defense. Yes, I want to be able to defend myself. And I like to hit hard, play hard, get physical...

But I am motivated to stay fit because I want to live well. I may never, ever be attacked, but I KNOW the rules that apply to the physical world apply to me: if I don't keep myself fit, I will have a less wonderful quality of life than if I stay fit. This is the immediacy I need to do the work I do everyday. As I get older (and 40 is coming up...) I hate to give in easily to the idea that there are things I cannot do because of my age.

This is MY motivation. Maybe some people think it SHOULD be self-defense that motivates me, but what matters is not what SHOULD be, it is what IS that I have to work with.

So, I do things that are FUN to keep myself fit. I love training martial arts, I love skating, I love geocaching. Fitness is no chore. If I were motivated by the idea of someday maybe something bad will happen to me that I could prevent by doing pushups...fitness is a chore.

Even though I use martial arts to have fun, it does not mean that street worthy skill is less important to me. It's just not what gets my a$$ off the couch.

Just my 2 cents and I hope Terry doesn't feel his thread has been hijacked! :) Whew! I have rambled on a long time...What was the question?

[SA_BJJ]

For example, the guy that runs the local BJJ club is 6'3" and about 280. He's a black belt under Relson Gracie and he's got the classic Hawaiian "round" look. Kimo will kick your ass though. No ifs ands or butts about it...and he is not "shredded" like so many of us expect people who are "in-shape" to be.

And he can get his ass kicked just as quick...Have his fat ass run 5 miles then come back and start rolling...

[Makalakumu]

And he can get his ass kicked just as quick...Have his fat ass run 5 miles then come back and start rolling...

Heh. I don't think I'll "have" him do anything. Maybe you should take a trip to Hawaii and visit the Team Kaneohe BJJ club. You can tell him he's a fat ass. Make sure to let me know when you're coming!

LOL - I sense an epic fail.

[Tez3]

Heh. I don't think I'll "have" him do anything. Maybe you should take a trip to Hawaii and visit the Team Kaneohe BJJ club. You can tell him he's a fat ass. Make sure to let me know when you're coming!

LOL - I sense an epic fail.

Nice one!!

I know MMA fighters who don't look the part but have stamina and fitness and they win in the cage, one I know also can fight out of the cage....and be the winner.
I've seen men who are ripped to hell and have little fitness or stamina....steroids.
Talking of Polynesian physiques we have a lot of Fijian soldiers here and they are built like the guy maunakumu described, they play rugby and can tab (yomp if you're a Royal Marine Commando) with the best of them.
so to paraphrase SQ-BJJ, try walking and running 80 miles in three days carying huge weights on your back, then engaging an enemy in a prolonged firefight......then roll lol! trust me these guys can and so can the much smaller Gurkhas.

[Sukerkin]

It is true that the 'ripped' look so beloved of the cinema and the glossies is actually not necessarily a sign of good health or even general fitness.

Cast your minds back a few years now to the World's Strongest Man competition. There was a ripped-to-the-nines Icelandic man-mountain who really really looked the part. Then there was a rather portly, most un-ripped, Lincolnshire coalman and ex-copper by the name of Geoff Capes. Guess who won?

The classic 'warrior' icon is very seldom what the real warriors look like. There is nothing wrong with trying to be fit and look good; it would be foolish to argue otherwise. However, it is best to be sure that the motivation for such 'sculpting' is one not indicative of some problems or failings within.

[Archangel M]

Nice one!!

I know MMA fighters who don't look the part but have stamina and fitness and they win in the cage, one I know also can fight out of the cage....and be the winner.
I've seen men who are ripped to hell and have little fitness or stamina....steroids.
Talking of Polynesian physiques we have a lot of Fijian soldiers here and they are built like the guy maunakumu described, they play rugby and can tab (yomp if you're a Royal Marine Commando) with the best of them.
so to paraphrase SQ-BJJ, try walking and running 80 miles in three days carying huge weights on your back, then engaging an enemy in a prolonged firefight......then roll lol! trust me these guys can and so can the much smaller Gurkhas.

Yeah, but were talking about "being in shape", not "looking in shape". Im wagering those MMA fighters who "dont look the part" DO spend a good ammount of time on physical conditioning.

[Tez3]

Yeah, but were talking about "being in shape", not "looking in shape". Im wagering those MMA fighters who "dont look the part" DO spend a good ammount of time on physical conditioning.

SA-BJJ was stating that someone who was described as not looking in shape wasn't in shape so I was begging to differ. I imagine the chap that maunakumu described does spend time on physical conditioning don't you?

[Makalakumu]

Yeah, but were talking about "being in shape", not "looking in shape". Im wagering those MMA fighters who "dont look the part" DO spend a good ammount of time on physical conditioning.

True, but I think the point is being made that there is a separation between "looking" and "being".

[Archangel M]

I could care less if a student "looked" in shape as long as he/she "was" in shape.

[Archangel M]

Does this really matter in the Martial Arts, I mean I have seen some pretty heavey and out of shape dudes that could kick the living **** out of someone. So how much truth is in it.

I think the initial post is asking if "being" in shape is important for self-defense.

[Kwan Jang]

Technique (and attitude/fighting spirit, ect)) make the most of what you've got. Working on the five components of fitness (muscular strength, muscular endurance, cardiovascular endurance, flexibility, and body composition) creates more to work with. If an individual increases their physical capacity w/o losing anything in technique, ect., then that individual will have more to work with and have the potential of becoming a better fighter than before.

There are a lot of people out there who are able to defend themselves despite the fact they are out of shape. However, there is little doubt that they would be even better fighters if they were in better shape. Still, they do provide a rationalization for those who know they really should work on their conditioning more, but choose not to. It takes work and a commitment of time and energy that many are unwilling to make for various reasons. I will say that IMO that the practice of MA and self defense though is paramount in becoming able to defend yourself and being a good fighter and if your resources are limited towards training, this should be a higher priority than conditioning.

Finally, regarding body fat: it is excess weight that does not contribute to moving the body the way that lean tissue does. Can you be in good cardiovascular condition and be strong carrying around a certain amount of excess body fat? Of course. But it's akin to filling the trunk of your car with sand. It will still go, but it adds very little of benefit for most things you are trying to acomplish and merely subtracts from your available horsepower. Ex. In the strongman competition, the fatter guy didn't win because he wasn't as lean, it was because of other factors and pretty much in spite of it. Until you get down to body fat levels below 5-8% (depending on the individual. Also, I am referring to males for this percentage), being leaner is a plus for overall athletic performance in general (their are some exceptions obviously such as simply having more mass in a collision, even though lean tissue would still be superior here as well).

[Makalakumu]

Until you get down to body fat levels below 5-8%

There are a lot of people out there that will never reach this level without starvation. There are A LOT of factors that determine how a person's body carries and distributes fat. Humans are animals. Fat is the bodies long term energy reserves. I'd be very surprised if there was an actual study that showed that humans can ONLY reach their physical peaks in performance if they reduced their body fat percentage to 5-8%. I'm thinking the real numbers are probably anywhere between 5% and 25% based on the individual and based on the natural biologic variation in homo sapians. I haven't seen anything to back that up, but that's my educated guess.

[Kacey]

Until you get down to body fat levels below 5-8%


There are a lot of people out there that will never reach this level without starvation. There are A LOT of factors that determine how a person's body carries and distributes fat. Humans are animals. Fat is the bodies long term energy reserves. I'd be very surprised if there was an actual study that showed that humans can ONLY reach their physical peaks in performance if they reduced their body fat percentage to 5-8%. I'm thinking the real numbers are probably anywhere between 5% and 25% based on the individual and based on the natural biologic variation in homo sapians. I haven't seen anything to back that up, but that's my educated guess.

Indeed... per the American Council on Exercise, reported on Health Check Systems (http://www.healthchecksystems.com/bodyfat.htm):

Classification
Women (% fat) Men (% fat)
Essential Fat 10-12% 2-4%
Athletes 14-20% 6-13%
Fitness 21-24% 14-17%
Acceptable 25-31% 18-25%
Obese 32% plus 25% plus

A similar chart can be found here (http://www.weightlossforall.com/fat-percentage-ideal.htm). Note that this chart considers anything below 8% (for men) to be unhealthy.

[Bodhisattva]

Does this really matter in the Martial Arts, I mean I have seen some pretty heavey and out of shape dudes that could kick the living **** out of someone. So how much truth is in it.

It is really important to have proper conditioning in any fighting sport.

When heavy, out of shape dudes come to our gym and try to kick the **** out of us, we ride them til they gas and then submit them.

Being a big, out of shape dude will only take you so far.

When you meet aggressive, trained fighting athletes the fat becomes more of a heavy, useless backpack and the fight goes right out of the guy.

[Twin Fist]

which isnt the point, terry didnt ask about "is being in shape important for participating in the latest combat sport fad?"

he asked about SELF DEFENSE

something all you grapplers are ignoring.

self defense

you THINK that cuz you can roll with some guy in YOUR gym under YOUR rules that that is exactly how it would go on the street?

pfffft

modern make believe SPORT martial arts have as much to do with self defense as a hot dog does with a warm, fluffy puppy.



It is really important to have proper conditioning in any fighting sport.

When heavy, out of shape dudes come to our gym and try to kick the **** out of us, we ride them til they gas and then submit them.

Being a big, out of shape dude will only take you so far.

When you meet aggressive, trained fighting athletes the fat becomes more of a heavy, useless backpack and the fight goes right out of the guy.

[Andrew Green]

in that case.......

ed parker? not a martial artist
ron chapel? not a martial artist
mas oyama? not a martial artist
funikoshi? not a martial artist


see the error in your thinking ?

Oyama and Funakoshi at least where all in good shape, at least at one time. Later in life they became more coaches then athletes though. But both, even towards the end of their lives would likely have been considered in good shape for people at their age. I believe the same could be said about Ed Parker.

Chapel, I have no idea

[terryl965]

which isnt the point, terry didnt ask about "is being in shape important for participating in the latest combat sport fad?"

he asked about SELF DEFENSE

something all you grapplers are ignoring.

self defense

you THINK that cuz you can roll with some guy in YOUR gym under YOUR rules that that is exactly how it would go on the street?

pfffft

modern make believe SPORT martial arts have as much to do with self defense as a hot dog does with a warm, fluffy puppy.


Exactly my point so many people believe that astreet fight will last twenty - thirty minutes it makes me wonder how many folk habe ever been in a real encounter. MMA people believe they van wear someone down, I guess that means they are not in a street encounter but in a ring with rules.

[SA_BJJ]

Heh. I don't think I'll "have" him do anything. Maybe you should take a trip to Hawaii and visit the Team Kaneohe BJJ club. You can tell him he's a fat ass. Make sure to let me know when you're coming!

LOL - I sense an epic fail.

Kimo knows hes fat. Just cuz you can bench 500 lbs doesnt mean youre in good shape.

[SA_BJJ]

try walking and running 80 miles in three days carying huge weights on your back, then engaging an enemy in a prolonged firefight......then roll lol! trust me these guys can and so can the much smaller Gurkhas.

This sounds like a "my dad can beat up your dad" post...jeez

[Sukerkin]

Exactly my point so many people believe that astreet fight will last twenty - thirty minutes it makes me wonder how many folk habe ever been in a real encounter.

So very true. My one-time-only-never-again-thank-you encounter was three against me and it was over in three seconds. The only fitness I needed, once the fighting was done, was to run to the Police Station (which was less than a mile away :D) to report the incident.

[SA_BJJ]

So very true. My one-time-only-never-again-thank-you encounter was three against me and it was over in three seconds. The only fitness I needed was to run to the Police Station (which was less than a mile away :D).
You ran a mile in 3 seconds....now thats good shape...:)

[Sukerkin]

Ah, no.

I can see how you may be mislead. I did used to do 4 minute miles as part of my training but 3 second ones ... :eek:.

Fitness is a helpful thing and not something to be denigrated but neither is it to be over venerated. If I had to choose, as a martial artist, between being any good at my art or being fit then ... bring on the pies and beer :D.

Both goals {no, not the pies and beer :lol:} take energy and time and whilst fitness might come about as part of the pursuit of skill most adult lives do not permit enough time for both.

[SA_BJJ]

Ah, no.

I can see how you may be mislead. I did used to do 4 minute miles as part of my training but 3 second ones ... :eek:.

Fitness is a helpful thing and not something to be denigrated but neither is it to be over venerated. If I had to choose, as a martial artist, between being any good at my art or being fit then ... bring on the pies and beer :D.

Both goals {no, not the pies and beer :lol:} take energy and time and whilst fitness might come about as part of the pursuit of skill most adult lives do not permit enough time for both.

I know I was just messin with ya....4 minute miles are still pretty damn amazing.:ultracool

[Sukerkin]

Sadly, beer, pies and my missus' cooking have conspired to assure that such feats of pace are unlikely to recurr any time soon :o.

I see your profile lists your profession as "Military", which explains where your focus on fitness comes from :rei:. How I trained to run fast would probably sound familiar to you - I'd run through water-logged fields, wearing boots, combat trousers and jacket and with a rucksack stuffed with caving gear on my back. After that, running on flat pavement, with appropriate footgear and no 'loading' was a piece of cake :D.

[Twin Fist]

it doesnt matter, if you handle the situation right, you can WALK to the police station, the bad guys will still be either knocked out or not inclined to mischief

[Sukerkin]

I completely agree, TF. For nearly all altercations that we train for as martial artists, peak fitness (or even stamina) is not a pertinent issue. A fight that goes on for long enough for such to be relevant is a fight not being executed with appropriate 'seriousness'.

[Makalakumu]

Kimo knows hes fat. Just cuz you can bench 500 lbs doesnt mean youre in good shape.

Okay, braddah. Aloha!

[terryl965]

Kimo knows hes fat. Just cuz you can bench 500 lbs doesnt mean youre in good shape.

Yes he does but the question would be then how long could you stay with him before you are too hurt to contimue. Please do not assume just because he is fat he cannot fight have you ever seen him with the techniques he has.

[Archangel M]

"Fat" and "in-shape" are not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of "fit" people who exercise and still carry some extra body fat. IMO fitness IS important, body composition less so. If you focus on the former let the latter take care of itself (with a sensible diet of course). Just be able to keep going when you have to. Not all fights are over in 2-3 seconds, if you count on that you are going to get in trouble.

Fitness in SD is like having a gun. Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.

[Kwan Jang]

Regarding body composition, my previous comment about body fat being in the 5-8% range was about the fact that for most males, below this level can be detrimental to health and performance, especially if sustained for an extended period of time. OTOH, there is very few benefits to having it higher than this for most athletic performance. You can be a great fighter and great athlete with higher bodyfat levels than this, but below these levels are going to work against you. Going much above it will start to be a minus to your abilities. How much of a detriment it is depends on how far you let it go and other factors including genetics.

Body composition is one of the five workable components of fitness and all five of them will give benefits to becoming a better fighter. but obviously the effective, practical training you put into self defense and fighting are more important factors. Most real life situations are over in seconds and are quite often "stun and runs", so there is often little need to be in top shape to get the job done. However, increasing your physical capacities will still make you a better fighter than not doing so provided that you maintain the skill side of the equation.

[matt.m]

I joined the Marines not the Coast Guard. Physical fitness is essential to me. My cardio is weak, I have horrible knee problems. My speed and power sort of make up the difference.

While in the Marines I always defended myself with hapkido/judo power style techniques. It just worked. I don't get into this "Kung Fu vs. Kung Fu" business. However, speed and coordinated power are hard to beat.

Remember, every block is a strike and every strike is a break. Doing isometrics, calestenics time under tension, slow method reps etc are the way to go in my humble opinion. Work the fire out of your core, do a lot of flexibililty training, it all comes together.

Consider this: A man does 1000 situps a day can take a strong punch to the stomach than a person who doesn't do situps at all.

[Tez3]

This sounds like a "my dad can beat up your dad" post...jeez



Really? Then you can't have read it properly lol! I think you may have to spend a little more time with us before realise you don't have to be so spiky :).

[myusername]

Exactly my point so many people believe that astreet fight will last twenty - thirty minutes it makes me wonder how many folk habe ever been in a real encounter. MMA people believe they van wear someone down, I guess that means they are not in a street encounter but in a ring with rules.

I agree with this to a point, especially 1-1 encounters. But what about multiple attackers? My older brother and his 3 friends were attacked outside a pub a few years ago. My brother is large and at times aggressive and has little diplomacy skills so had offended some guy earlier in the evening. On leaving the pub he and his friends were met with a vicious attack from a gang of 15! My brother was bottled in the back of his head and quickly floored. He then had to endure an onslaught of kicks and stomps to his head and body that lasted until the ambulance and then police arriving. This was not seconds this was minutes! Now stamina and being in shape would not have helped my brother as he was pretty much out of it before the fight started but his three friends were there trying to protect him and unable to leave him to this pack of animals. One of his friends who already had a metal plate in his head from a previous accident was bottled in the face. His friends (one of them a weight lifter and removal man) put up a spirited defence and were fighting these guys off until the ambulance and police arrived. Endurance and fitness is an important part of self defence for those times where you are unable to disengage yourself as quickly as you would like.

My brother is OK now. He was badly shook up about this incident and had flashbacks for a while but on a positive note he is more aware that he is not invincible.

[takadadojokeith]

Exactly my point so many people believe that astreet fight will last twenty - thirty minutes it makes me wonder how many folk habe ever been in a real encounter. MMA people believe they van wear someone down, I guess that means they are not in a street encounter but in a ring with rules.

Sure, self-defense and cage fighting are different. But I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Fitness is a good example of where they overlap. In both, the ideal is to finish a guy as fast as possible and in both things don't always work out that way. Being in good shape means you're more likely to put a guy away quickly and more likely to have things turn out well if you don't.

[Tez3]

Most MMA people I know will treat a bout on a fightnight differently from the way they treat a street fight, many of the guys who fight MMA are also doormen, my instructor is. He will train fighters and teach MMA differently from the way he teaches self defence. he'll teach a MMA move then say if you wouldn't do this on the street or he'll show a different way that works better in a non rules environment.
We have other fighters who are police officers who again have to treat things differently as when out on the street working they are bound also by rules.
For all reasons though we train to be as fit as we can, not just for the sport or self defence but for health.
The trick is of course, never judge a book by it's cover and assume the 'fat' guy isn't fit at all.

[seasoned]

The trick is of course, never judge a book by it's cover and assume the 'fat' guy isn't fit at all.

Very excellent point. It lends itself to not under estimating anyone, or becoming too cocky. This is also a good thing to remember in all aspects of life.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Absolutely! Do not underestimate anyone!!!

[Tez3]

However it's good to be underestimated especially in a fight! :ultracool

[HM2PAC]

I underestimated one of the younger BB's a couple of months ago. He is obviously obese, but he was faster than I thought he would be. I scored at will. He scored too, but not as much.

But make no mistake, he is out of shape and obese. He is not "Fit" period.

Regardless of who the person is, if they are over-weight, then they should be classified as out-of-shape. Some people are OK with that. That is their choice.

When I step onto the mat with anyone obese or out of shape (fat or skinny) I go as fast as I can. I know they can't keep up.

[Tez3]

I underestimated one of the younger BB's a couple of months ago. He is obviously obese, but he was faster than I thought he would be. I scored at will. He scored too, but not as much.

But make no mistake, he is out of shape and obese. He is not "Fit" period.

Regardless of who the person is, if they are over-weight, then they should be classified as out-of-shape. Some people are OK with that. That is their choice.

When I step onto the mat with anyone obese or out of shape (fat or skinny) I go as fast as I can. I know they can't keep up.


I think in a SD type situation adrenaline will keep someone going longer than you'd expect, trouble is that goes for the attacker as well! the will to live can be very strong which gives you that boost you need to run faster than you ever thought was possible or last out in a fight.

As they say in Yorkshire, it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

[HM2PAC]

Tez3 wrote:

the will to live can be very strong which gives you that boost you need to run faster than you ever thought was possible or last out in a fight.

In a real fight adrenaline will help, some. Typically people are really worn out after a short burst of combat/fighting. Sleeping just seems to come naturally when the smoke clears.

That, and you will default to your level of training rather than "Rise to the occasion".

Adrenaline will:
Raise your heart rate.
Raise your blood pressure.
Dilate your pupils.
Make your hair stand on end, (pilo-erection).
Make you sweat.
Give you an erection.
Open your airways.
Enhance/Increase your strength.

It will not give you endurance.

[jks9199]

I underestimated one of the younger BB's a couple of months ago. He is obviously obese, but he was faster than I thought he would be. I scored at will. He scored too, but not as much.

But make no mistake, he is out of shape and obese. He is not "Fit" period.

Regardless of who the person is, if they are over-weight, then they should be classified as out-of-shape. Some people are OK with that. That is their choice.

When I step onto the mat with anyone obese or out of shape (fat or skinny) I go as fast as I can. I know they can't keep up.
Is a football offensive lineman out of shape? How about a sumo wrestler?

Fitness has a definite relation to body fat -- but they aren't synonymous. My lowest weight in recent memory was about 235 lbs; most optimistic "ideal weights" suggest I should, based on actual body composition, be around 200 lbs. At 235, I easily did a 6 minute and change mile (sorry, don't have the exact time) and actually led much of my academy class in PT standards. By the way -- when I started the academy, my routine workout included more than an hour of cardio training, maxing the speed on the treadmill. Was I fit? I was overweight by any standard; grossly obese by some (like BMI).

[HM2PAC]

jks9199 wrote:

Is a football offensive lineman out of shape? How about a sumo wrestler?

Yes, and yes. They are in good enough shape to compete in their respective sports, but they are obese. Unless you are talking about linemen from the service academies that have to maintain BF% standards and fit into uniforms.

jks9199 wrote:

I should, based on actual body composition, be around 200 lbs. At 235, I easily did a 6 minute and change mile (sorry, don't have the exact time) and actually led much of my academy class in PT standards. By the way -- when I started the academy, my routine workout included more than an hour of cardio training, maxing the speed on the treadmill. Was I fit? I was overweight by any standard; grossly obese by some (like BMI).

How tall are you? What is your BF%? BMI charts are known to be fraught with inconsistencies when applied to men who are muscular. If you have a low BF% then I'd have to say you are more than likely in shape. However if you are 23% or more, I'd say you need to lose weight, regardless of how you perform.

I'm 5'11" and 220. I qualify as obese per the BMI charts. But my BF% is low, the excess weight is muscle. My resting heart rate is in the 60 BPM range, and after swimming hard enough to raise it to 140, it readjusts in under 2 minutes. (To add to the confusion, there are some who say that even though the excess weight is muscle, it is still a strain on my heart).

jks9199 wrote:

My lowest weight in recent memory was about 235 lbs; most optimistic "ideal weights" suggest I should, based on actual body composition, be around 200 lbs.

If by composition you mean muscle vs fat, then you need to lose 35+ lbs. If it's just a table , I'd forget about it.

[Xue Sheng]

Does this really matter in the Martial Arts, I mean I have seen some pretty heavey and out of shape dudes that could kick the living **** out of someone. So how much truth is in it.

It all depends on the style you train, the teacher of that style and why you train it

[jks9199]

jks9199 wrote:


Yes, and yes. They are in good enough shape to compete in their respective sports, but they are obese. Unless you are talking about linemen from the service academies that have to maintain BF% standards and fit into uniforms.

jks9199 wrote:


How tall are you? What is your BF%? BMI charts are known to be fraught with inconsistencies when applied to men who are muscular. If you have a low BF% then I'd have to say you are more than likely in shape. However if you are 23% or more, I'd say you need to lose weight, regardless of how you perform.

I'm 5'11" and 220. I qualify as obese per the BMI charts. But my BF% is low, the excess weight is muscle. My resting heart rate is in the 60 BPM range, and after swimming hard enough to raise it to 140, it readjusts in under 2 minutes. (To add to the confusion, there are some who say that even though the excess weight is muscle, it is still a strain on my heart).

jks9199 wrote:


If by composition you mean muscle vs fat, then you need to lose 35+ lbs. If it's just a table , I'd forget about it.
The question wasn't was I overweight or obese. I absolutely was (and am). I said so. The question was whether or not I was fit. I had less than no trouble with a standard treadmill stress test; I believe the doc needed something like 15 or 20 minutes on their standard protocol to get me to my max heart rate.

Body weight and body composition is not automatically or directly related to fitness -- though it is strongly correlated.

[HM2PAC]

jks9199 wrote:

The question wasn't was I overweight or obese. I absolutely was (and am). I said so. The question was whether or not I was fit.

Someone needs to come up with a definition of physical fitness that includes obesity as an option?


I had less than no trouble with a standard treadmill stress test; I believe the doc needed something like 15 or 20 minutes on their standard protocol to get me to my max heart rate.

You should be able to reach 85% of your max heart rate easily and efficiently in a matter of minutes, if you are putting out the requisite effort. You should then be able to return to resting heart rate just as efficiently. You should not go to max.

[Josh Oakley]

Let's be reasonable. Take a guy with boundless experience that is obese, make him lose 10% body fat, and he is going to be a better fighter. He's less inert. That alone will make him faster. More of his body is actually doing or able to actually be doing something. That will make him more efficient.

I fight a heck of a lot better than I did fifty pounds ago. I went from 38% bodyfat to 20% bodyfat. I move better. simple. Fitness matters in Martial arts just as much as the gasoline you put in your car affects its performance.

[Twin Fist]

still not taling about the subject at hand, which is for SELF DEFENSE

[HM2PAC]

Original Post:

Does this really matter in the Martial Arts, I mean I have seen some pretty heavey and out of shape dudes that could kick the living **** out of someone. So how much truth is in it.

Nothing about SELF DEFENSE here. There was no mention of SD vs sparring. "Kicking the living **** out of someone" could be either.

[Sukerkin]

I wish I could say I have never heard such subliminal "Western-Thought Body Nazi Propoganda" (TM) before but sad to say it would not be true.

It is important to realise that every person is pre-programmed at a genetic level to be a certain way at a certain age. The idea that everyone should comply to certain parameters is as ludicrous as it is wrong.

Most of us end up being more weighty than we are designed for because our lives do not include the physical activity that shaped our species. But to assume that it is abhorent to be 'overweight' according to some chart of averages, is to miss out a fair chunk of reasoning.

People are different shapes because 'selection by survival' works to ensure a variety of body forms and metabolisms. If that selection becomes too narrow then, as a species, we become less capable of surviving environmental changes.

You want to guess who is equipped the best to survive a period of low food availability? The fat guy. The ripped 'Hollywood Warrior' type died long ago as his fast metabolism demanded too much input. Oh and that shape itself is not one that our species was meant to be - it is an artificial one crafted by the philosophy that brought us bodybuilders which was then imprinted by the fictional media as the 'shape of heroes'. What happens to bobdybuilders when they stop training, especially the steroid enhanced ones? Not pretty.

To misquote a movie title, "Go Tell The Spartan's". They in turn will tell you that the ideal shown in "The 300" was not the shape that warriors were meant to be.

Stress, indecision and lack of skill or will are much more crippling to a martial artist than being fat - the Japanese knew this, which is why the ideal Samurai body shape included a pot belly to lower the centre of mass.

So, for those who feel nothing but disdain for those people who carry more body fat than they think is reasonable, perhaps it would be better to consider that what is right for one is wrong for another and that most of these 'ideal body' parameters are entirely dependant on culture and period and have very little to do with empirical truth.

The proviso to the above is always going to be, of course, that someone who is too fat to get up has clearly exceeded even the generous bounds that biology sets for us.

EDIT: TF is right. We're skidding away from the core topic now. It's still an interesting discussion but it's not the one that ties closely to the OP.

[HM2PAC]

I would never recommend that anyone be a bodybuilder as a standard for fitness.

But being obese can not be accepted as being fit. One or the other. Make a choice and live with it, but don't sugar coat it.

[HM2PAC]

Look at it this way,

You can't become overweight/obese until your body has become insulin resistant.....the first step on the road to diabetes.

Maintaining health and fitness is hard to do. It becomes harder when lines and boundaries become blurred.

[terryl965]

Original Post:


Nothing about SELF DEFENSE here. There was no mention of SD vs sparring. "Kicking the living **** out of someone" could be either.

If you go back to page three it say SD, so lets keep this going in that direction. I mean even in sport the over wieght person could knock the condition on eout look at Kinbo slice he did.

[Sukerkin]

I think pehaps we should hive this off into it's own thread? It is a discourse that has value but it's just not what this thread is intended for.

[HM2PAC]

If you go back to page three....

The original discussion didn't get underway for 3 pages?

I think Sukerkin is right, there should be a separate thread/discussion for this topic.

Sorry if I got a little long-winded. In the ATA I have come to accept marginal performance and lax physical standards. I was hoping that it wasn't the same all around.

I personally think that fat BB's are funny, especially the ones that are younger than I am. However, even I realize that my attitude is somewhat bitter and hard to swallow.

[Xue Sheng]

Stress, indecision and lack of skill or will are much more crippling to a martial artist than being fat - the Japanese knew this, which is why the ideal Samurai body shape included a pot belly to lower the centre of mass.


Anyone ever hear of Yang Chengfu?

Not exactly skinny and it is likely his weight had a lot to do with shortening his life but he was a rather skilled martial artists.

Look for drawing of Dong Haichuan as well.

[terryl965]

The original discussion didn't get underway for 3 pages?

I think Sukerkin is right, there should be a separate thread/discussion for this topic.

Sorry if I got a little long-winded. In the ATA I have come to accept marginal performance and lax physical standards. I was hoping that it wasn't the same all around.

I personally think that fat BB's are funny, especially the ones that are younger than I am. However, even I realize that my attitude is somewhat bitter and hard to swallow.

It is Ok to say what is on your mind and you are right some BB cannot even move let alone teach. By the standard I am overwieght but I still train everyday and spar with my students. I do ground work and takedowns with them, I get tossed around. Would it be easier if I lost some wieght yes, byr since I take alot of steroids for my lungs that is just not going to happen. I know if need be I can still compete and do well and hopefully still able to defend myself if need be.

[Archangel M]

I think a lot of the conversation here has some "baggage". Some people are probably carrying some more than others.

:flame:

[jarrod]

"fitness" is a pretty broad term that covers a lot of attributes. if a fat guy has bad cardio but is very strong (like a powerlifter or a sumo wrestler) he is probably just fine for most self defense situations, especially if he trains to focus on his strength.

also, being fat does not necessarily mean unhealthy. fat can either attach itself to the organs (unhealthy) or the muscles (no problem). i for one have ran into & trained with a number of fat guys that i would want to defend myself against, especially in a short, high intensity encounter.

sport fighting is another matter.

jf

[Archangel M]

Anybody and everybody can "defend themselves" regardless of fitness levels, if they use their training and their heads. I would just hesitate to give anybody the impression that they shouldnt worry about fitness or delude themselves into thinking that because they study good technique that they can backburner conditioning because it "isnt necessary" to defend thmselves.

IMO you would be better served by focusing on fitness vs self defense anyway. Statistics will show you that a persons well being is threatened by being out of shape vs a street attack by a large margin. So if "self-defense" is reframed as "defending your health, functionality and well being" then IMO many people are focusing their time on the wrong issues.

[Archangel M]

Also IMO. Being overly developed in one fitness aspect to the detriment of others (muscular strength vs endurance) isnt my definition of being "in shape". Everybody will have varying levels of development, but "combat fitness" should be generalized instead of specialized.

CrossFit has a lot interesting to say on that issue.

[jarrod]

good points & i agree with you for the most part. but i don't think anyone is trying to give the impression that fitness is totally irrelevant, just that it is sometimes overestimated. as for combat fitness being generalized instead of specialized...that depends on if the aspect of combat you're training for is generalized or specialized. a soldier has much different fitness requirements than, say, a bouncer (though i wouldn't define what a bouncer does as "combat", but it is closer to what john doe civilian might have to do).

jf

[Archangel M]

I dont know if fitness importance can ever be "overestimated". IMO you cant be too rich, too beautiful or too fit. I think the danger lies in underestimating it vs overestimating it.

[jarrod]

....too beautiful...

i'm proof that you can be :uhyeah:

jf

[seasoned]

I think in a SD type situation adrenaline will keep someone going longer than you'd expect, trouble is that goes for the attacker as well! the will to live can be very strong which gives you that boost you need to run faster than you ever thought was possible or last out in a fight.

As they say in Yorkshire, it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

One thing to remember is, by the time you are a participant in the attack, your attacker is already experiencing their adrenaline dump. You need to go from 0-60 pretty fast. All the MA in the world is not going to help, if you are oblivious to what is going around you. Big, small, fat, skinny, makes no differents. Your attacker in many cases, is an opportunist, and will come out of nowhere.

[Tez3]

One thing to remember is, by the time you are a participant in the attack, your attacker is already experiencing their adrenaline dump. You need to go from 0-60 pretty fast. All the MA in the world is not going to help, if you are oblivious to what is going around you. Big, small, fat, skinny, makes no differents. Your attacker in many cases, is an opportunist, and will come out of nowhere.


My attackers tend not to be opportunists, they tend to be either fighting already, running away or resisting arrest lol! usually the first though. Often though they will be standing talking at me then attack because I won't let them go without checking ID or I won't let them in somewhere they aren't allowed to be, usually a shove or a punch. Being aware of this and the fact they are more often than not drunk helps avoid being hit. In fact as I think of this it seems they are rarely sober,it's usually something they do only when drunk.