Supporting your point of view or claim

[RyuShiKan]

There seems to be a common problem on this and other boards.
The problem is when someone posts something and then is asked to clarify or support their statement, and or claim, they rarely do.
Instead they demand that the “asker” supply proof of some sort that it is not what the claimer says it is.

This is like me saying I have $100,000 dollars in my pocket, you ask me to prove it and I respond by asking you to prove I don’t have $100,000 dollars in my pocket.
Ridiculous isn’t it………..

Is there anything that can be done about these people that refuse to support their claims?

[yilisifu]

I agree!

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Is there anything that can be done about these people that refuse to support their claims?

Yes. You can go to where ever the person is who you have the disagreement with and then check their facts personally then report back to us.

You have to be kidding...you just asked the biggest, stupid-@ss question of the day. Thank you. Now I won't have to worry about hearing anything crazier for the rest of the day.
:argue:

[Mike Clarke]

I'm not sure I got the purpose of your contribution to this thread GouRonin? What was your point again?

The question seemed like a fair one to me. would you be willing to come down from the frozen North to check out any claims I might make in the future?


Mike.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
I'm not sure I got the purpose of your contribution to this thread GouRonin? What was your point again?



He thinks he is amusing.:rolleyes:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke

............. would you be willing to come down from the frozen North to check out any claims I might make in the future?

Mike.


I doubt he would.:rofl:


Mike,

Seriously though.
My question was aimed more at the moderators that control boards like this than anyone else.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
The question seemed like a fair one to me. would you be willing to come down from the frozen North to check out any claims I might make in the future?

Well seeing as it's Rikki Tikki Tavi there who is all upset about proof of claims maybe it's him you ought to be talking to. But if you feel the need to to send me a ticket so that I can verify any of your claims to the rest of these people then heck, send away. I'll come on down, watch you do your stuff and then report back like a good little reporter.


Originally posted by roodypoo
He thinks he is amusing

Nah. I know I'm amusing.

Maybe you ought to have asked the moderators then if that was your question?

But what do I know eh?

Back to my igloo!

[Mike Clarke]

GouRonin,
Why on earth would I, or anyone else, send you a ticket?
You came up with the solution of travelling to see for your self, in response to a fair comment by RSK. Now you're looking for others to pick up the tab.

You didn't answer my question though. What was the point you were trying to make with your original post on this thread?
Canada is not 'known' for it's comediens. I guess you're one of the 'unknown'?:D

Looking forward to your answer you big old bear fighter you.
[does that mean you fight with no cloths on?]

Mike.

[Yari]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan


Is there anything that can be done about these people that refuse to support their claims?

I do agree. But you have to ask yourself, how much time do you want to use on these people. No matter how much time is used there will always be more of them.

A part of growing up is to learn the signals that theses people send out so you can steer away from them. Learning these signals to others is the best way to keep "them down".

I dont think this is a mods. /admin. job to do this. It's our responsablity to do that. Point out when a fraud is near, but dont go into a clinch (that's what many of them want). Just point and say as it is. The smart people will see it as it is, others will learn by it, and the rest, we cant do anything about.

But letting your gaurd down, and temper go, you've lost the fight already (sounds like semi-pocket-budo-philosophy, but it's true).

Just point it out and let it go....


/Yari

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Why on earth would I, or anyone else, send you a ticket?
You came up with the solution of travelling to see for your self, in response to a fair comment by RSK. Now you're looking for others to pick up the tab.

Rickky asked a question. I gave an answer. You asked me a question. I gave you an answer. I could care less about either of you two yahoos so why would I pay to travel to see either one of you? If you want me to substantiate your claims like you asked me to then you can pick up the tab skippy.


Originally posted by Mike Clarke
You didn't answer my question though. What was the point you were trying to make with your original post on this thread?

The point was that it was a dumb @ss question. He wasn't really asking anything but trying to make a statement. He should have just said it and been done with.


Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Canada is not 'known' for it's comediens. I guess you're one of the 'unknown'?:D

Canada IS known for it's comedy and half of hollywood it seems at times is Canadian. I'll forgive you for not knowing. But if you desperately need proof. I suggest you go to Hollywood and start asking comedians where they are from. Let me know how it goes.


Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Looking forward to your answer you big old bear fighter you.
[does that mean you fight with no cloths on?]

Why? Are you looking to pick up? If so, keep on cruising because I'm not interested ya fruity pants.
:D

[Kirk]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Canada IS known for it's comedy and half of hollywood it seems at times is Canadian. I'll forgive you for not knowing. But if you desperately need proof. I suggest you go to Hollywood and start asking comedians where they are from. Let me know how it goes.


John Candy, Rick Moranis, Michael J. Fox, Jim Carey, Mike Myers,
Dan Aykroyd, Tommy Chong, Norm MacDonald, Martin Short,
Rich Little, Phil Hartman ...ummmmm ... okay I'm done.


RSK, as far as I know, the mods and admin hear truly appreciate
your knowledge, but have to answer the complaints. They can't
make this a "legitimate lineage only" board, for reasons I'm sure
you don't need explained to you. You're one of the few that are
in the unique situation to where they value you as a member
for your knowledge, and do NOT want to see you permanently
gone. Why not go about standing by your determination, and
take the suspension when it happens. The come back, and go
about your business?

[chufeng]

Another canadian comedian...Peter Jennings...

chufeng

[chufeng]

Is there anything that can be done about these people that refuse to support their claims?

I doubt there is anything that can be done, other than after making a point and pointing out the obvious avoidance on the "claimants" part...ignore them.

:asian:
chufeng

[DAC..florida]

I also agree!

I feel that you must keep in mind that there is also many opinions posted on this site, when proof can be posted it should be and if your not willing to back up your claims you shouldnt make them.

[Bob Hubbard]

Guys,
Keep it constructive. Name calling, etc is only gonna get things shut down fast.


I feel that you must keep in mind that there is also many opinions posted on this site, when proof can be posted it should be and if your not willing to back up your claims you shouldnt make them.

I doubt there is anything that can be done, other than after making a point and pointing out the obvious avoidance on the "claimants" part...ignore them.


About it. If you have proof of 'falsehood', the post your evidence in a constructive manner. If someone claims to be a 21th degree in an art no ones ever heard of, and refuses to provide information to back it up, there is little we can do about it. Post your own research, and let it lie. Let your evidence, presented positively, say it fo you.

[GouRonin]

Ok. You caught me. I was bored this morning and thought I'd shake the tree and see what fell out.

Rickishikitikki or whatever your darn name is and Mike Clarke. Sorry guys. I was bored and had internet access. What can I say? Sorry to jump the gun like that and get you all riled up. My apologies!
:D

[James Kovacich]

What exactly is proof? Someone naming dates and instructors names proves nothing!

How many of your Sensei and Sifu will be "HAPPY" with us after they find out you posted your certification on the internet with "THEIR" signatures on it!

Case closed!:D

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Seriously though.
My question was aimed more at the moderators that control boards like this than anyone else.

Sadly, no. The verification of credentials is as hard to verify as gender and age on line. Its a good question though...how can you tell someones 'legit' and not FOS?

Well, cost and time factors not considered...we can:
1- require a major credit card - kids dont have em, but unless we run a charge, how do we verify its 'legit'? Plus, theres enough numbers floating out there that withour requiring a scan of the card, whatta we do?

2- require all 'teachers' to have on file a copy of their certs. Sadly, that still doesnt verify anything as Photoshop and other image editing programs (and the skill to use em well) is common.


I think Gou did make a good point...get on the floor with em. I think every 'experienced' poster in this thread has commented at one time or another on seeing someone high-ranked who moved like a no belt. Get on the floor, work with em, and see for yourself. Sometimes, you find a diamond in with all the coal.

Since we cant spend a few billion$ traveling around n checking everyone out ourselves,we must rely on the opinions of those who we do trust to be reliable. How do I know that RyuShiKan or GouRonin know anything? I don't, personally. But people who'se opinions and experience I trust in this matter have said they are both good martial artists. So, unless I can afford to travel to Japan or Canada, I must take their opinions for now.

Check the backgrounds of those in question, ask them questions yourself, allow them time to answer. Regardless of your personal 'belief', keep your comments positive. Allow the other person to hang themselves. On the internet, we tend to see alot of big claims, but little to back it up, and even less often even a location to go see for ourselves. Maybe a 'Things to Avoid' or 'Warning Flags' listing would help folks to see the puffed shirts for what they are, and help elevate the legit instructors?

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
What exactly is proof? Someone naming dates and instructors names proves nothing!

How many of your Sensei and Sifu will be "HAPPY" with us after they find out you posted your certification on the internet with "THEIR" signatures on it!

Case closed!:D

Are they ashamed of been identified as your instructors?

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Are they ashamed of been identified as your instructors?

Thats not the point. The point is their signature can viewed and possibly forged. Thats what I was meant anyway.

Why would my instructors be ashamed?
http://www.louangel.com/dojo/california.html :D

[Matt Stone]

I think that, in the court of public opinion, the inability of a person to present their arguments, represent their alleged mastery of an art, or to provide evidence (e.g. continued reluctance to reply or respond, continued evasive responses to questions, etc.) goes a long way toward forging an image of a person as well as qualifying their background.

I have said on this board in the past that my personal feeling is that lineage means nothing. A person with great lineage, but piss poor study habits and practice is only a halfass student with great background. A person with crappy lineage can still overcome the burden of their lineage by proving their own inherent worth and understanding. But the people who rely on their reputations, curricula vitae and having interacted with allegedly important persons in the MA community are only trying to hide behind something to mask their own shortcomings elsewhere.

I have what lineage I have. I don't publicize it because it doesn't mean anything. I have trained with who I have trained with, but I don't offer that in place of my own skill and knowledge. I have what skill and knowledge I have, but while it is better than some, it is worse than most. I offer only myself, and I make no arguments that I am better than what I am because of who I know or where I've been. Question everything I say, and if you fine out I was wrong, please correct me. When I think I know it all, I will have lost the fight entirely. I know some things, but have a long way to go before I know enough things.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I think that, in the court of public opinion, the inability of a person to present their arguments, represent their alleged mastery of an art, or to provide evidence (e.g. continued reluctance to reply or respond, continued evasive responses to questions, etc.) goes a long way toward forging an image of a person as well as qualifying their background.

I have said on this board in the past that my personal feeling is that lineage means nothing. A person with great lineage, but piss poor study habits and practice is only a halfass student with great background. A person with crappy lineage can still overcome the burden of their lineage by proving their own inherent worth and understanding. But the people who rely on their reputations, curricula vitae and having interacted with allegedly important persons in the MA community are only trying to hide behind something to mask their own shortcomings elsewhere.

I have what lineage I have. I don't publicize it because it doesn't mean anything. I have trained with who I have trained with, but I don't offer that in place of my own skill and knowledge. I have what skill and knowledge I have, but while it is better than some, it is worse than most. I offer only myself, and I make no arguments that I am better than what I am because of who I know or where I've been. Question everything I say, and if you fine out I was wrong, please correct me. When I think I know it all, I will have lost the fight entirely. I know some things, but have a long way to go before I know enough things.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

I am sure there are MANY examples in the MA community who would fit that bill!

Are you sure you come from JKD?

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
Are you sure you come from JKD?

Do you mean "are you sure (I) don't come from JKD?

I'm not too clear on what you meant...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Do you mean "are you sure (I) don't come from JKD?

I'm not too clear on what you meant...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

Your right.

And your second half of you statement sounded like a JKD analagy.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
There seems to be a common problem on this and other boards.
The problem is when someone posts something and then is asked to clarify or support their statement, and or claim, they rarely do.
Instead they demand that the “asker” supply proof of some sort that it is not what the claimer says it is.

This is like me saying I have $100,000 dollars in my pocket, you ask me to prove it and I respond by asking you to prove I don’t have $100,000 dollars in my pocket.
Ridiculous isn’t it………..

Is there anything that can be done about these people that refuse to support their claims?

You've asked for a response from the mods./admins.

What you describe, first of all, is very widespread on the Internet. It's a common theme on newsgroups, for example. To a certain extent one must accept it as part of the Internet culture, for better or worse.

I also ask you to imagaine someone making a valid claim who is unable to 'post' proof. This certainly happens--proof exists but not in an electronic form.

But of course it is easy to post absurd claims on the Internet. (Hence the sarcastic joke, "It must be true--I read it on the Internet!") MartialTalk has no special solution for this Internet-wide problem. However, if you let me know the bank account number for that $100,000 I can make both of us a quick profit by helping someone wire millions of dollars out of Nigeria. This will keep us in herbal Viagra for years.

Other boards handle this matter differently than we do. MartialTalk is for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. Unfriendly discussion is well handled by rec.martial-arts. Academic discussion is well handled by E-Budo (for the Japanese arts). They have done wewll rooting out frauds. We can't replace them and we're not trying to do so. We are here to be a relaxed, friendly place to discuss the arts.

You're welcome to question claims. You're welcome to express disbelief in claims. You're welcome to ask for proof. What we don't want is badgering, flame wars, and so on. If someone can't or won't post proof, that's fine. You can use the "ignore" option to ignore them. We don't want one member judging another member's credentials and judging them to be fit or unfit to post on MartialTalk. In the event that such a decision needs to be made, it will be made by Kaith, Cthulhu, and me.

To be clear: We'd rather let 10 twenty-five-year-old grandmasters post claims that they can knock out bulls with their psychic energy across state lines than drive away one legitimate poster due to a witch-hunt.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
Your right.

And your second half of you statement sounded like a JKD analagy.

Take my analogy a little further. Someone could have studied JKD under Brucie Boy the entire time BL was teaching. If the person failed to practice, had a poor memory, thought they knew better, whatever, then whether the person studied with BL or not means nothing. They still suck.

Likewise, you can get someone who has trained with all sorts of different famous MA people, but it ultimately means not one single thing. My teacher is relatively unknown. Our style, schools, and senior students for the most part practice in relative anonymity. Our lineage is traceable over 13 - 18 generations (depending on how you count them) right back to Shaolin. Whoopee. Doesn't mean a damn thing.

I have studied Yiliquan directly from the founder of the style and the #2 seniormost student of his. I have studied RyuTe (for a very short time) under one of Taika Oyata's personal students. I studied Shuri-te Ha Karate-do under the direct guidance of the inherited master of the school who claims a lineage that (I think) goes all the way straight back to the Shuri/Naha/Tomari-te days. All of that matters not.

I am who and what I am. That's all. That's all anybody is. Your resume can be eleven different kinds of impressive, but it is nothing but paper and it doesn't mean a thing to me at all...

I guess that is why I am so "in your face" when I ask questions of people. I don't give respect because it is "proper," I only give it when it is earned. Everybody gets Equal Opportunity with me - Equal Opportunity to fail and to be proven an idiot. If they pass, great. If not... :rolleyes:

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Well seeing as it's Rikki Tikki Tavi........Rickky asked a question…………… roodypoo ………….. Rickishikitikki or whatever your darn name


What's with all the insulting names?

Have I insulted you in some way?

My user ID is pretty simple to type.

[Mike Clarke]

Hey GouRonin,
I'll take your appology in good faith and accept it.
RyuShinKan is a serious martial artist with a very good sense of humour. If you appeal to that instead of comming across like so many others on the net do [wiseguys], I'm sure you'd see a different side to him.

Of course you may not be bothered, but, as MT is said to be the home of 'friendly' folk, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to get along with everyone?

I like the fact you have the character to say your sorry if you feel you did something wrong. Such an action says more about a person than any claim they might make regarding their status etc.

Right now there's enough s**t going on in the world for all of us, here on MT, we should try a little harder just now to live by the things we teach.

Mike

[Mike Clarke]

You nailed it Matt.

Mike.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kirk
John Candy, Rick Moranis, Michael J. Fox, Jim Carey, Mike Myers,
Dan Aykroyd, Tommy Chong, Norm MacDonald, Martin Short,
Rich Little, Phil Hartman ...ummmmm ... okay I'm done.



I seem to remember a movie about how Canada is plotting to take over the US and John Candy and Dan Akroyd are in it.
Maybe that movie has some truth to it……….they are taking over Hollywood first!

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I seem to remember a movie about how Canada is plotting to take over the US and John Candy and Dan Akroyd are in it.
Maybe that movie has some truth to it……….they are taking over Hollywood first!

Okay, but if they call it "The United States Of Canada" or
something gay like that, I'm moving! :p

[arnisador]

Mexico is considering changing its name from the United States of Mexico (look it up--that's what it is) to simply Mexico so as to not appear as similar to the USA.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Take my analogy a little further. Someone could have studied JKD under Brucie Boy the entire time BL was teaching. If the person failed to practice, had a poor memory, thought they knew better, whatever, then whether the person studied with BL or not means nothing. They still suck.

Likewise, you can get someone who has trained with all sorts of different famous MA people, but it ultimately means not one single thing. My teacher is relatively unknown. Our style, schools, and senior students for the most part practice in relative anonymity. Our lineage is traceable over 13 - 18 generations (depending on how you count them) right back to Shaolin. Whoopee. Doesn't mean a damn thing.

I have studied Yiliquan directly from the founder of the style and the #2 seniormost student of his. I have studied RyuTe (for a very short time) under one of Taika Oyata's personal students. I studied Shuri-te Ha Karate-do under the direct guidance of the inherited master of the school who claims a lineage that (I think) goes all the way straight back to the Shuri/Naha/Tomari-te days. All of that matters not.

I am who and what I am. That's all. That's all anybody is. Your resume can be eleven different kinds of impressive, but it is nothing but paper and it doesn't mean a thing to me at all...

I guess that is why I am so "in your face" when I ask questions of people. I don't give respect because it is "proper," I only give it when it is earned. Everybody gets Equal Opportunity with me - Equal Opportunity to fail and to be proven an idiot. If they pass, great. If not... :rolleyes:

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

Is there a hidden theme in there?

[Matt Stone]

What do you mean by "hidden theme?"

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I seem to remember a movie about how Canada is plotting to take over the US and John Candy and Dan Akroyd are in it.
Maybe that movie has some truth to it……….they are taking over Hollywood first!

I'm a big fan of the South Park movie, myself.
Blame Canada, Blame Canada, come on sing along....

--Dave

:D :rofl:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
What do you mean by "hidden theme?"

Were you taking a poke at me for seeking association and guidance from several "known" Sensei?

The fact that I sought out George Kirby, George Alexander and Lou Angel, all in the publics eye, almost makes me a part of what you dislike.

I don't have a problem with anyones beliefs, we are all entitled to them. It just seemed pointed at me after I re-read your posts.

[Matt Stone]

To quote one of my drill sergeants in basic training, "What's the matter Guilty Conscience?!?" :D

No, akja, I was not taking pot shots at you at all. While I have taken issue with some of your comments in the past, I have posted (more than once) that I no longer have issues with you.

What I was commenting on were the people that present their history in place of their own qualifications, as if having studied with someone of good reputation is enough to ensure their own skills, and further proof is unnecessary. That's crap, and I think you'd agree.

There are folks on this board (some who post a lot, some who have posted recently, some who haven't been around for a while) that my comments were more directly related to. However, you are not one of them (unless you present your training history as a substitute for your own abilities, which I am positive you would not).

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

[DAC..florida]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
[B]Guys,
Keep it constructive. Name calling, etc is only gonna get things shut down fast.




Kaith Rustaz,
I did'nt mean anything negative by my statement and I hope I did'nt upset you because that was not my intention.

My point was just that there alot of opinions here and those are hard to back up, but if somthing can be backed up I feel it should be. I also feel that if someone Is not real sure about a subject they should'nt argue with someone who knows what there talking about.

Again I do apologize if you took my words the wrong way I hope this makes my points a little clearer.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
To quote one of my drill sergeants in basic training, "What's the matter Guilty Conscience?!?" :D

No, akja, I was not taking pot shots at you at all. While I have taken issue with some of your comments in the past, I have posted (more than once) that I no longer have issues with you.

What I was commenting on were the people that present their history in place of their own qualifications, as if having studied with someone of good reputation is enough to ensure their own skills, and further proof is unnecessary. That's crap, and I think you'd agree.

There are folks on this board (some who post a lot, some who have posted recently, some who haven't been around for a while) that my comments were more directly related to. However, you are not one of them (unless you present your training history as a substitute for your own abilities, which I am positive you would not).

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

Thanx buddy,
I really really started looking at who was out there that could guide me in higher learning after re-assessing myself on what and where I was going in the martial arts. I looked at my past experience along with where I felt I should be headed. The instructors that I chose are helping me put it together.

You and a few others helped me to see things in a differant light too. All good.:cool: