Self Defense against Pirates

[Makalakumu]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008369168_teensailor09.html?syndication=rss



LOS ANGELES — Zac Sunderland is alone on a sailboat off Indonesia, five months into a journey around the world, when he senses the worst kind of danger.

Pirates!

A large wooden vessel in the distance, rising and falling over the swells, is clearly on intercept course. It does not show on the radar. It flies no flags. Its crew doesn't respond to radio calls. Sunderland alters course, the pursuers do likewise.

What's a 16-year-old to do? Sunderland isn't sure, so, with his heart racing, he dials home on the satellite phone.

Laurence Sunderland, a longtime shipwright and yachtsman, has just begun Sunday dinner with his wife and six other children in their Thousand Oaks home north of Los Angeles when the phone rings.

A daughter answers and Zac's shout erupts through the receiver. Laurence snatches the handset and rushes into another room.
He calmly instructs Zac to load his .357-caliber pistol before announcing his plight and position on the emergency radio channel.

The father then directs his son to be prepared to shoot to kill.

"It's hard to tell a 16-year-old that, but this is real life, not a video game," Laurence recalls. "I said, 'if they have guns and they're coming to do you harm, you're going to have to shoot to kill. Otherwise, you will be killed.' "


What do you think would be the best way for one person or a small group of people to defend themselves against pirates? I never thought about this, but I could see pirates being a problem anywhere you have sailing or overnight pleasure boating. I'm sure a yacht or a sailboat may represent a very tempting target for theives on the high seas.

Personally, I think he should have something more then a .357. A high powered rifle with a scope comes to mind. Something that can hit them before they can hit you. But who knows what kind of weapons they might have. Anyway, should be an interesting discussion.

maunakumu

[Archangel M]

Something that can hit them at the longest range AND something that can work up close.

[Makalakumu]

A shot gun of some kind might be a great close in weapon to repel boarders.

[MA-Caver]

I'd have this if I could afford it...

Not the dog.. what the dog is behind... :rolleyes:

[terryl965]

I'd have this if I could afford it...

Not the dog.. what the dog is behind... :rolleyes:

Yes Ma-caver that has to be the best choice

[SamT]

I'd say wait till they're closer. If you start opening fire on them from a distance, chances are they'll just sink your boat. However, the first part of self defense, which many (including I) need to work on, is avoiding conflict in the first place. Sometimes hiding away while someone robs your house is much safer and better than meeting them with firepower.

[MA-Caver]

I'd say wait till they're closer. If you start opening fire on them from a distance, chances are they'll just sink your boat. However, the first part of self defense, which many (including I) need to work on, is avoiding conflict in the first place. Sometimes hiding away while someone robs your house is much safer and better than meeting them with firepower.
Perhaps, but pirates, real life pirates including Somolians, aren't just content with just taking whatever valuable on board... they'll take the whole vessel if it's valuable enough, and that means searching you out and killing you and your crew/family to eliminate witnesses.
They are little more than animals, motivated by the highest profit possible, especially if there's already a price on their heads. They're not going to care how cooperative you are. Indonesian pirates are about the same. You've seen them, you're a witness and if they're ever caught and you're one of those who have reported them... you'll testify against them. No, better to get rid of the witnesses and have you as a "lost at sea" statistic.

[Deaf Smith]

You need a 'Q' ship. Looks just like a rich old man's yacht but with hidden 40mm boffers and 20mm Oerlikon cannon. If only a few people, then just the oerlikon will work fine. Two guns fore and aft. Make sure they can fire down to less than 20 yards. Below 20 yards grenades do fine.

Now if you think it would be kind of hard to arm your favorite yacht that way, and only simi-autos can be used, you can still find some simi-auto 1919 look-alike machineguns (looks just like the WW1/WW2 1919 machinegun), air cooled, even uses the same belt fed system and 30-06 ammo, but is only simi-auto. Yes a 200 round box can be fitted. Great for taking on attacking Zodiac boats out to 1000 yards.

And add to that the simi-auto version of the BAR, yes Browning Automatic Rifle, as used in WW1 and WW2. It's only simi-auto and uses the same 20 round BAR box mag. Use that for close in defense.

The advantages? Both look like real machineguns, both take 30-06 ammo, both are military design, yet neither is a fully auto machinegun. Legal to have on your boat as long as import/export papers are in order (US that is) and whatever country you drop anchor in allows it.

Deaf

[grydth]

How about not being there as a defense?

A 16 year old, by himself, in pirate infested waters...... well, I think in Nebraska they just drop them off at hospitals when they aren't wanted...

[Xue Sheng]

Or he could have tried circumnavigating the globe in this

http://www.freewebs.com/gfile3/Greek%20Military%20Special%20ops%20patrol%20boat.j pg

[Archangel M]

I'd say wait till they're closer. If you start opening fire on them from a distance, chances are they'll just sink your boat. However, the first part of self defense, which many (including I) need to work on, is avoiding conflict in the first place. Sometimes hiding away while someone robs your house is much safer and better than meeting them with firepower.

If they have the firepower to sink you from range then yeah I guess you have to let them in closer, but if they outnumber and outgun you, range is your only friend.

Hide away??? Like jump overboard????

[Brian R. VanCise]

How about not being there as a defense?

A 16 year old, by himself, in pirate infested waters...... well, I think in Nebraska they just drop them off at hospitals when they aren't wanted...

That is what I thought as well. Sometimes not putting yourself in that dangerous of a position is the best defense.

Now if you are actually an adult you should have defensive capabilities on any air, sea, land vehicle that you own. What is enough? Well that would depend. On sea a rifle, shotgun, handgun per adult would be the minimum in my opinion. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[grydth]

That is what I thought as well. Sometimes not putting yourself in that dangerous of a position is the best defense.

Now if you are actually an adult you should have defensive capabilities on any air, sea, land vehicle that you own. What is enough? Well that would depend. On sea a rifle, shotgun, handgun per adult would be the minimum in my opinion. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

I'm just bringing you guys along! But.... there will no praying for a pirate attack. Not allowed!

[elder999]

We keep a couple of shotguns, a couple of handguns, and a couple of rifles onboard-they're mostly for big fish, though-for pirates, I've got a .50 cal Barnett. Three or four of those at the waterline, and one for the helmsman.........

[HM2PAC]

What do you think would be the best way for one person or a small group of people to defend themselves against pirates?

Poke them in their good eye.%-}

[MA-Caver]

Poke them in their good eye.%-}:lfao: Arrr that's the ticket!

[Xue Sheng]

I just did a web search on the best defense against pirates and besides the whole pirating software thing that popped up what I found is old and basically says


best defense against pirates is to be able to outrun them.


best defense against pirates was to sail in convoys

And of course there was always the "carry lots of cannon" option

But none would appear to apply here so I am going with Brian's "not putting yourself in that dangerous of a position is the best defense"

[Archangel M]

We keep a couple of shotguns, a couple of handguns, and a couple of rifles onboard-they're mostly for big fish, though-for pirates, I've got a .50 cal Barnett. Three or four of those at the waterline, and one for the helmsman.........

Thats what Im sayin.

[Makalakumu]

Interesting. This thread is bringing forth all sorts of thoughts. Maybe the Road Warrior scenario that people predict will occur at sea? Maybe in an era of decreased naval power we see an increase in piracy? Are there any agencies you can call upon when you are in international waters? Or are you basically on your own?

In which case, I would arm myself to the teeth.

[chinto]

ok, here is my opinion, if you have the ability RUN! if your vessel is faster you will not have to fight, but i would not go far off shore with out a heavy cal ( .30 or larger rifle .. something like an M1 or M14 or similar with at least the ability to punch through a hollow block wall at 300M .. ya a .308 or better yet a 30-06 will! that is why every one who can in afganistan and iraq wants an old M14 rather then the M4/M16 ) and a good shotgun and pistol... 12 gage minumum for the shotgun.. pump.. with combat extension magizine, or a box magazine if you can afford a shot gun with one! Make the pisol a .45.. and if it comes down to it.. you shoot to kill... no questions you shoot to kill, not to wound or to scare and you dont talk! you shoot! ( chances of being found alive after a pirate attack on a small vessel is about ZERO!!!

[KenpoTex]

IMO, If someone really thinks they're going to fight off modern-day pirates all by their lonesome, they're fooling themselves. These people have the advantage of experience and are probably much better armed than you can be (unless you can obtain full-autos and RPGs).

Sail your boat in safer waters...

[elder999]

Interesting. This thread is bringing forth all sorts of thoughts. Maybe the Road Warrior scenario that people predict will occur at sea? Maybe in an era of decreased naval power we see an increase in piracy? Are there any agencies you can call upon when you are in international waters? Or are you basically on your own?

In which case, I would arm myself to the teeth.


Open water. It's always been "open water," and there have always been pirates in that part of the world-the Sulu sea, the South China Sea, the Indian Ocean. Who are you gonna call? The INTERPOL Maritime Branch? Wrong. You're out there on your own, pretty much-help could be hundreds if not thousands of miles away-literally, though, a happy coincedence could occur, and someone might be close. "Armed to the teeth" is relative, and running away isn't always an option-the MO for a lot of these guys is to put out Zodiacs or other fast moving small craft when they get close enough, and board from those-in any case, most sailing vessels don't have much of a chance of getting away from them; they're just not fast enough.

They probably knew who the kid was, though, and just wanted a closer look.......

[elder999]

IMO, If someone really thinks they're going to fight off modern-day pirates all by their lonesome, they're fooling themselves. These people have the advantage of experience and are probably much better armed than you can be (unless you can obtain full-autos and RPGs).

Sail your boat in safer waters...

There really are no such thing as "safer waters." Yacht piracy happens in the Caribbean, Mediterranean, and off the coast of South America, often to vessels in port or at anchor, but also on the high seas. These are not the sort of "professional" pirates that attack merchant vessels in the South Seas and off the African coasts, and are usually lightly armed. In areas like the one where this boy is, yachts are infrequently targets for piracy, as evidenced by their simply checking him out and letting him go-I'd really bet they knew who he was and were just curious. In any case, the best assumption if confronted by pirates is that you'll be killed, and to be prepared to defend yourself accordingly.

A rifle offers a lot more for the sailor than a shotgun, though they do have their uses. Pirates generally turn away from boats that offer resistance-they're not in business to get killed, and, like I said, they usually attack in small craft that offer little cover from rifle fire. The best bet, like others have said, is to avoid coastal trouble spots, though that becomes difficult when nearing port, especially in South America or the seas where this boy was-why sail near Indonesia without coming into port, especially if you need supplies or repairs?

On the other hand, I wouldn't get within 200 miles of Somalia if I could avoid it....

[Empty Hands]

What do you think would be the best way for one person or a small group of people to defend themselves against pirates?

Ninjas, of course. I thought everyone knew that. ;)

[Xue Sheng]

That’s it, after reading through this post I have decided the only thing I can do to be safe form pirates, the next time I circumnavigate the world by sea, is go in this

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b363/deltlaboy/Nerpa.jpg

And of course it will be manned mostly by ninjas :ninja:

[Makalakumu]

I have a student who sailed around the world with his mother and father. Actually, he sailed with his parents for a total of 10 years before they made port in Hawaii and settled. Anyway, on the trip, there were attacked by Pirates three times.

Once, when his father picked up the boat in the Carribean. The boat was sitting in port and was boarded at night by two men in a small boat. The father drove the men off the boat and they came back with weapons. The pirates knocked the dad out and stole all of their electronic equipment.

The next time, they were attacked, they were sailing through the Straights of Malacca. A large boat hailed them and presented rocket launchers and heavily armed men. They pulled up along side, but then changed their mind when they saw that the boat had nearly nothing of value.

The last time, was off the coast of Somalia. Some fishing boats pulled off their runs and gave chase. They were armed with AK-47s. In defense, the sail boat ran long lines of fishing line out behind their boat. The pirates turned away in order to not get the line wrapped around their props. Every time they circled, they were able to turn their sailboat so that the lines would trail in their path.

As far as arms go, these guys sailed around the world for 10 years without a single gun. Although, it was talked about that they should purchase something, they just never did. That seems crazy to me, especially when they had the experiences they did.

[Deaf Smith]

IThe last time, was off the coast of Somalia. Some fishing boats pulled off their runs and gave chase. They were armed with AK-47s. In defense, the sail boat ran long lines of fishing line out behind their boat. The pirates turned away in order to not get the line wrapped around their props. Every time they circled, they were able to turn their sailboat so that the lines would trail in their path.

Wise idea!

You guys remember the Ninja and TETSU-BISHI (calthrops)? Now think of that for ships. Nets to fowl the props. Maybe with a float/weight balance to keep them a foot or two below the water so they don't see them in time.

Add to that a fast boat, few light weapons like a Remington 870 stainless marine and Ruger stainless GP-100 (that may manual repeaters, less trouble than automatics) and make the boat appear not to have valuables on board.

In short, acting like you would do if you were in a bad part of an unknown city!

Deaf

[chinto]

hell if you are on a sail boat off Somalia or other major heavy pirate arias.. the sub .. or maybe hmm, this would be a good choice to sail those waters such as the south china sea near Singapore, and such places with lots of heavily armed pirates who hit large vessels

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/destroyers/okane/okane-arr.jpg

[allenjp]

No, No, No...sillies, the best way to fight pirates is with pirate-combat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbePZ0ce0DY

[gilgsn]

Hello, that's an interesting question, as I am into sailing... I once met a British guy in Manilla. he was a sailor. I asked him if he was worried about pirates. He then went to his bedroom and came back with a Belgian FAL assault rifle and said: "Well, you come on deck like this, and make sure you smile and show them your rifle. They ask you if you want to buy some fish, you say no thanks, and they leave." That answer surprised me. He explained that pirates hate been shot at (who does..!?) so they go for the easy preys.. I am not sure it is always true, personally, I probably wouldn't count on it. My first line of defense: A good pair of binoculars. You need to know what their intentions are; do they have weapons? Disregarding the fact that most countries will arrest you for having a gun on board, I would have a reliable semi-auto rifle in .308 (for range), like an M-14 or Saiga in that caliber. The Saiga is based on the AK, so, probably very reliable. The .223 (5.56mm) won't penetrate as well as a .308 or equivalent .30. I would not suggest a scope. With the boats moving, you'd never be able to find theirs in your scope. You would have to practice a lot to get good with open sights in a choppy sea. Have lots of magazines, check their prices before buying the rifle. Oh, and forget handguns for pirates (not thiefs who board you at anchor). I heard once the saying "To a gunfight, bring a rifle and friends with rifles." With a handgun, you'd probably miss the pirate boat entirely. Shooting a stationary target when you're stationary is easy. Shooting a moving target when you're moving is a nightmare.

If the rifle I chose was also made of stainless steel, I'd get that model.. Keep it oiled and clean. Even stainless steel does rust. Also, keep in mind that shooting the gun is the easy part. Handling it, loading it, changing magazines and aiming in different positions is what requires the most practice. I would practice at sea a lot. Getting it out, loading, getting on deck, taking cover etc..

I would instruct the non-combattants to lay flat at the bottom of the boat below the waterline, since 2-3 feet of water will stop a rifle bullet (don't believe television). They should be the ones with handguns, not you up there on deck.

By the way, if I didn't have a gun, I would have a few glass bottles full of gasoline handy, with a rag in them, as well as a Zippo in my pocket.. Let them get close..

Other considerations: In some countries, the police/coast guards double-up as pirates during their free time! Don't count on your word to get you out of jail. This may sound harsh, but if I survived an encounter, meaning they didn't, I'd sink their boat with the bodies secured in it. If I didn't have time to call for help before, I wouldn't after.. Again, depending on location.

You need to learn about the law in the waters you sail in. The law on the books, but also the way it is practiced, or not, and how you could maybe get out with a bribe (very risky in some places, it could make things worse for you). Some guns are more "politically correct" than others. Some countries allow shotguns with one or two shots, manual. Sometimes bolt action rifles are allowed. Make sure you don't spent time in prison and lose your boat for having a gun.

I heard another funny story about a guy who was boarded by a group of armed men in the Carribeans. They seemed to want food and water (he didn't speak their language), so the boat owner gave them some meat and whatever else he had to eat. Before leaving, the leader gave him the only thing he had to thank him, a grenade!

So, you never know.. Some people survived pirate encounters by not resisting, some were brutally killed not resisting, and some survived shooting back.. Every situation is different.

Gil.

[Guardian]

There is no safe answer, if they put zodiacs in the water which most do, then you have a chance with small arms of repelling them while trying to escape and escape is the best option while radioing someone, moving away at best possible speed, might not be much, but it's better then sitting there waiting.

Other then that, Kempo had it right, your pretty much screwed no matter what. Best bet is not to be there or to know the waters and where you sailing the best that you can.