Conditioning

[terryl965]

Does your school do true conditioning for each person or is that let up to the person outside of classes. Me I have always included it for some strange reason. I am asking because some of my people believe this should be done on the outside so it does not take away from class time. We are looking at every angle, so when we start all these new program at the first of the year we can all be on the same page.

[granfire]

we have an action packed 50 minute workout, 3-4 times a week, and if done right you leave everything on the floor.

We do include some conditioning as part of the routine. Of course the time is limited. but the comoulative effect is pretty good.

[igillman]

Our school does not do special conditioning for individuals. They may tell you to run more outside of class but that is as far as it goes. We have general warm-up and running type stuff before we do the kicking and that can be quite tough. We also do push ups and sit ups during class too. We end up getting a stretch, cardio, kicking practice and then either forms, sparring or more, but varied, kicking.

I liked the cardio workouts, that was part of why I started there. Its sort of ironic really, I am sidelined due to cardiac issues, the gods of irony must be laughing their little heads off at that one.

[Traditionalist]

I'm in Hapkido and we do a lot of conditioning in class. The real good student also do it outside of class. We have found that 90% of the students won't hardly workout on their own like they should. Those that do are the forerunners of class. They are the best. And a lot of times students find that they have to work out on their own a little if they are going to do what is required of them in class or they are left behind.

[StuartA]

Does your school do true conditioning for each person or is that let up to the person outside of classes. Me I have always included it for some strange reason. I am asking because some of my people believe this should be done on the outside so it does not take away from class time. We are looking at every angle, so when we start all these new program at the first of the year we can all be on the same page.

I do it in classes Terry.. so you are not that strange. I ahve heard it loads of times that this and that should eb left to the student outside of classes, but in reality only 1% actually do it!

Stuart

[zDom]

I'm in Hapkido and we do a lot of conditioning in class. The real good student also do it outside of class. We have found that 90% of the students won't hardly workout on their own like they should. Those that do are the forerunners of class. They are the best. And a lot of times students find that they have to work out on their own a little if they are going to do what is required of them in class or they are left behind.

Same with our hapkido class.

My instructor, Master Mike Morton, said his instructor GM Lee H. Park expected people to condition on their own at home.

My instructor said he has found that, as you said above, very few actually do.

So to prevent injuries and ensure a decent level of conditioning, we do conditioning in class ... and plenty of it.

Morton's hapkido class is kind of a local legend for the conditioning we do.

[terryl965]

See I need to keep the conditioning part then.

[HM2PAC]

I lift weights every AM and then swim 1500 yds before I go to work, (of course I'm up at 4 AM).

The conditioning I get at TKD is not enough to make me even think about sweating. Sparring makes me work and sweat. I would rather focus on more technique, sparring, and form and learn something new, than to do a few minutes of "conditioning" that will have very little impact on me.

I feel that grown adults should stay in shape on their own. That being said, I realize that most adults these days do not have that discipline. They come to class to get martial arts instruction and exercise.

[bluekey88]

We have basic conditioning standards through the ranks (up through 2nd dan). Students have to work on this outside of class. It's not too bad.

Our classes are split up into one class per week for techniques (one ofr adults, one for kids) split up by belt rank. One conditioning class (one for kids, one for adults). Run by a hard core BB who likes to run people into the ground with calisthenics and drills. Then we have a separate sparring class (again, one for the kids and one for the adults).

Personally, I do lots odf extra conditioning and practice outside of class. but I'm also one of very feww who really do that.

Peace,
Erik

[Kacey]

Sometimes in class - but not regularly. Fitness is a part of TKD, yes - but there's only so much time in a class that meets for 90 minutes twice/week. Also, some of the fitness piece depends on how much effort you put into what you're doing - the more you put in, the more you get out.

[SJON]

I find that the only time most students bother doing conditioning outside of class time is when the classes themselves are so hard that they need the extra conditioning to keep up. I generally think it’s better to incorporate some progressive conditioning rather than either keeping it really gentle or excessively tough.

Specific conditioning (as opposed to the kind that is a by-product of drills, sparring, etc) doesn’t have to take up too much time.
High intensity interval training is an efficient way to develop anaerobic AND aerobic capacity. Once they are warmed up, get them doing 8 x 20 second sets of something like high kicks or burpees, with 10 second rest periods. That’s under 4 minutes, and it gets you in shape like half an hour’s running.

For muscular endurance and basic bodyweight strength, do full squats, press-ups of various types, abs and back exercises at the end of the class before the cool-down. If you do them at the beginning they tend to affect performance in the rest of the class.

I’d say you can get students to above average general and MA-specific fitness (excluding flexibility) in under 10 minutes per class.

[rmclain]

My opinion...

Students should be getting into good shape for martial arts from training in class. This requires the instructor to push and the student to push themselves. This does not mean the student can run a marathon or compete in an Ironman competition from the training. This means they are in shape for martial arts.

Unless I had a small curriculum, I don't have enough time in a 1.5 hour class to have a specific section on physical conditioning. I want the students to be good at martial art. If they have a certain body-image goal or outside activity goal (running, bodybuilding, etc.), they need to work on that outside of class - I don't teach that here.

I am a certified personal trainer (WITS TX3300) and offer a separate conditioning class on Saturday morning (before MA clas) for those that want the extra, guided conditioning. Not many come to it as they report getting enough from normal class.

R. McLain

[Tryak]

We do some conditioning in class, more on self defense nights. However, I find that I am often above the curve (ie can do 30 situps when the class is doing 10) and end up working out outside of class or I don't see any improvement for months until I move up a grade..which perpetuates the cycle. I get challenged pretty bad when a senior spars me though, I like those nights. :)

[tko4u]

With the kids, I do some conditioning. With the adults, I usually go nuts. Last thursday, I put them through 20 minute warmup, all conditioning, hard as we could go. Gets them ready for a black belt test though

[Fiendlover]

Does your school do true conditioning for each person or is that let up to the person outside of classes. Me I have always included it for some strange reason. I am asking because some of my people believe this should be done on the outside so it does not take away from class time. We are looking at every angle, so when we start all these new program at the first of the year we can all be on the same page.

Nope. They only condition us if my sensei is in a really bad mood. lol thats why i go to the gym.

[SJON]

As with many aspects of the didactic process, it's generally effective to explain to students what exactly they are getting out of a given task or activity. There's a big difference between putting students through conditioning hell, and doing the same and explaining to them that we do the anaerobic stuff because it's giving them the "wind" they need to keep up intensive activity longer than their opponent can, that one thing is muscular endurance and another is strength, that this type of stretching is to avoid injury and that the other is to kick higher, etc. That way you give them motivation AND knowledge.

I was struck by this last night when a kid at the gym I go to told me he was working the weights for arms, chest and back, but not legs because he was getting enough leg work from the TKD classes. I had to bite my tongue, because the weights room instructor was present.

[Traditionalist]

As with many aspects of the didactic process, it's generally effective to explain to students what exactly they are getting out of a given task or activity. There's a big difference between putting students through conditioning hell, and doing the same and explaining to them that we do the anaerobic stuff because it's giving them the "wind" they need to keep up intensive activity longer than their opponent can, that one thing is muscular endurance and another is strength, that this type of stretching is to avoid injury and that the other is to kick higher, etc. That way you give them motivation AND knowledge.

I was struck by this last night when a kid at the gym I go to told me he was working the weights for arms, chest and back, but not legs because he was getting enough leg work from the TKD classes. I had to bite my tongue, because the weights room instructor was present.\

Why do Americans find it necessary to explain everything to a T. My Instructor tells me something and I do it. He hardly ever explain why and i know he is telling me to do it for a reason and it will benefit me. now sooner or later I usually find out through a story why or gets on to someone in class to make a point but not always. Its just something that baffles me about the American teacing techniques I have seen.

[bluekey88]

I cant' speak for ALL Americans (and I believe Mr. O'Neil is from Spain...or at least is based there now :) ). In any event, too many times have I taken what I was told by an instructor as fact not to be questioned. Turns out the instructor was wrong.

I don;t understand why a student can't respectfully question the why of something. Any instructor worth his/her salt should be able to answer the why. Any good instructor should also be willing to change in the face of new information instead of sticking to "this is the way it's always been done so there."

As to conditioning, there is a LOT of good knowledge out there for those who wish to take the time to research it. What was considered standard even 20 years ago is now known to be inferior training in some cases.

Simon is correct, one needs to train all the aspects of conditionoing (Aerobic, anaerobic, power, endurance, flexibility, pain tolerance, toughness and mental endurance to name a few) each aspect is best trained using specific techniques. A good conditioning program will do that providedf the trainee tailor his training to meet realistic training goals.

Peace,
Erik

[SJON]

\
Why do Americans find it necessary to explain everything to a T. My Instructor tells me something and I do it. He hardly ever explain why and i know he is telling me to do it for a reason and it will benefit me. now sooner or later I usually find out through a story why or gets on to someone in class to make a point but not always. Its just something that baffles me about the American teacing techniques I have seen.


Hi. I'm British, living in Spain, but anyway ...

Why? Because it's effective. It's called pedagogy and is what you might call the science of education. Which stuff do you remember best from school? The stuff you learned by rote or the stuff that was explained to you? Which of the two can you put into practice better?

The habit of assuming someone in authority is doing something because it will benefit you, or just assuming that it's correct, is dangerous. I am reminded of a guy I saw once on the news who was asked what he thought of his president's tremendously aggressive foreign policy and answered, "Well, I don't know much about that, but I'm sure our president is doing what's best for us".

[hkfuie]

Well, I often did not agree with my instructor's "why" for the things he did. But I saw his incredible technique and I WANTED THAT! So it did not matter what his why was. I did what he told me to because I wanted what he has. Many things I did not like as a student I later found gave good effects when I taught. It's just like learning bunkai. Sometimes the answer that another person gives is great for me, sometimes not. But I don't tell the other person it is no good for them. :) In the same way, I don't tell my instructor he is wrong. ;) Not if I'm right in the head!

Now what does all this have to do with conditioning in class? I don't know. Guess I got distracted. I think there are pros and cons and whatever you decide will be right for you!

Yeah. NO HELP. I know. :)

[HM2PAC]

IMHO a good instructor will explain what he wants and the reason for it.

When I am teaching something to a student, I welcome questions, but I try to give enough information that their questions never have to be formed. I don't teach MA, but the premise is the same.

When one of our BB's teaches me something I do it whether or not they give reasons. However, those who give an explanation, their info sticks with me better.

[zDom]

\

Why do Americans find it necessary to explain everything to a T. My Instructor tells me something and I do it. He hardly ever explain why and i know he is telling me to do it for a reason and it will benefit me. now sooner or later I usually find out through a story why or gets on to someone in class to make a point but not always. Its just something that baffles me about the American teacing techniques I have seen.

Could have something to do with being a nation that has never, ever been under the rule of an absolute monarch who told us to do things "just because."

It's why our ancestors came here.

Why do Europeans have such a hard time grasping individualism and liberty? ;)

[SJON]

Could have something to do with being a nation that has never, ever been under the rule of an absolute monarch who told us to do things "just because."

It's why our ancestors came here.

Why do Europeans have such a hard time grasping individualism and liberty? ;)

Ah yes, those absolute monarchs and feudal lords who we Europeans still give half of our crop to in tithes ... ;)

[terryl965]

How about getting back on topic here

[Traditionalist]

Could have something to do with being a nation that has never, ever been under the rule of an absolute monarch who told us to do things "just because."

It's why our ancestors came here.

Why do Europeans have such a hard time grasping individualism and liberty? ;)

In korea you hardly ever see someone who is over-weight. We even incorporate fitness and martial arts into our schools. Sometimes too much individualism lacks motivation. Taking ones elder's word, especially if they are rich in the martial arts, will do you good. We learn by example no by a verbal history lesson.

[SJON]

With a view to getting back on to the conditioning topic …

We must be wary of the idea that being lean and being fit have much to do with each other. I know people who are somewhat overweight but are quite fit. I also know very lean people who are totally out of shape. That reminds me of an aunt of mine who couldn’t understand why I trained, saying, “But you’re not fat!”.

Indeed, you rarely see overweight people in Korea, or at least I never do when I go to Busan. However, I suggest that this is perhaps partially genetic and in a very large measure due to the Korean diet.

I agree that listening to one’s elders with due respect is important, but it is also important to know when to question what they teach. This can be done directly, by asking, or indirectly, by research. I remember many conditioning exercises which high ranking masters of mine (some of them Korean) swore by, but which were either ineffective or dangerous. An example of ineffective would be hundreds of sit-ups done with the feet hooked under a wall bar. A example of dangerous would be heavy ballistic and static stretching during the warm-up.

A general question:

Most TKD schools do a certain amount of conditioning of the abs, but what kind of exercises do you use to condition the muscles of the back (I mean for core stability, not for receiving blows)?

[myusername]

I personally believe conditioning is crucial to MA training. I am ashamed to admit to being one of those who find it very difficult to train and condition outside of my classes so I feel my development would really suffer if it were removed from my class structure. My instructors both in Jujutsu and Boxing both include a lot of conditioning in their class and I really benefit from this. I feel it is very important to practice fighting and executing technique when tired as in reality with the fear and adrenaline flowing I can imagine there is a good chance that fighting for real will be tiring!

My Jujutsu instructor is a real fitness fanatic so here are a couple of articles that reflect his views and fitness techniques. He even runs a gladiator workout separate to the MA classes that I am ashamed to admit I haven't quite worked up the courage to attend.......

http://www.kevinohagan.com/Webpages/Pages/Articles_Fitness_components.htm

http://www.kevinohagan.com/Webpages/Pages/Articles_Jujutsu_Impact.htm

http://www.kevinohagan.com/Webpages/Pages/Systems_gladiator.htm

[SJON]

I feel it is very important to practice fighting and executing technique when tired as in reality with the fear and adrenaline flowing I can imagine there is a good chance that fighting for real will be tiring!



Aha, now there's a thought ...

So, you train with Kevin O'Hagan. I've heard good things about him. Isn't he based in Bristol?

I can feel some interesting conversations coming on ...

[JadeDragon3]

My teacher always did some conditioning before he started teaching. I hated it because it took away from actual learning time. I think a 5 to 10 minute warm up should be done and conditioning be left to be done at home or on the students own time. I do think however that on advanced level testing that conditioning should be included to a certain degree. What good is having the martial art knowledge if you can't even fight someone for more than one minute of non stop fighting/action. When I say conditioning I am referring to endurance level and mental conditioning. A martial artist should be able to perform a descent/average amount of push ups, sit ups, jogging, etc... There is nothing worse than to see a fat out of shape martial artist trying to teach. It brings tears to my eyes.

[HM2PAC]

SJON asked:

Most TKD schools do a certain amount of conditioning of the abs, but what kind of exercises do you use to condition the muscles of the back (I mean for core stability, not for receiving blows)?

This may not seem a likely answer, but the key to a strong lower back is hydration and strong abdominal muscles. You can also add in strengthening with back extensions and deadlifts (both straight leg and bent leg).

The upper back is a different animal altogether. I like to do rowing type exercises such as lat pulldown, upright rows, pull-ups...etc....

Swimming is also really good for the entire back, upper and lower, as well as the abs.

[bluemtn]

Sometimes it varies from a good chunk of class being conditioning, to just the usual warm ups- sit ups, jumping jacks, push ups, and 3 laps. I'd definitely keep the conditioning in the class, even if you vary the regimine some.

[myusername]

Aha, now there's a thought ...

So, you train with Kevin O'Hagan. I've heard good things about him. Isn't he based in Bristol?

I can feel some interesting conversations coming on ...

Yeah he is extremely good and fortunately for me based in Bristol. Though, to be fair and honest he is primarily concentrating on his MMA classes at the moment so the combat jujutsu classes that I attend are being managed by his senior black belts and I'm not having much contact with him personally beside the odd seminar. I'm not complaining though as his black belts, his syllabus, his seminars and his system just work for me so well. I have really found my martial art! It really compliments my boxing as well.

And for the purposes of this thread a big part of its appeal is the conditioning and fitness included in the classes. Its about being fit to fight!