speed vs power

[the_kicking_fiend]

I know this is a difficult one to call and in many ways they merge in some technqiues but which aspect of training do you feel deserves more practise?

In sparring, I think I can safely conclude fast opponents have a major advantage, big powerful attacks are just to obvious for someone throw a little flick kick in and start scoring some points.

In the street however it's another ball game, right? I mean no matter how fast you were, there's a point where your fighting someone so hopelessly strong you stand no chance.

Just wondering what people's thoughts were... should we be concentrating on power or speed more? Even if only slightly one way?

your friendly fiend,
D

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by the_kicking_fiend
I know this is a difficult one to call and in many ways they merge in some technqiues but which aspect of training do you feel deserves more practise?

In sparring, I think I can safely conclude fast opponents have a major advantage, big powerful attacks are just to obvious for someone throw a little flick kick in and start scoring some points.

In the street however it's another ball game, right? I mean no matter how fast you were, there's a point where your fighting someone so hopelessly strong you stand no chance.

Just wondering what people's thoughts were... should we be concentrating on power or speed more? Even if only slightly one way?

your friendly fiend,
D

Depends, if your gonna go for completly neglecting the other form of practice then I would choose power. If you mean if someone is already fast and needs power then I would choose power vice versa. Kinda depends on what situation :asian:

[fringe_dweller]

Even with my limited knowledge I would like to post a reply.
I know you only gave two options and I may be missing the point but in the real world (as opposed to a hypothetical situation) we have a number of choices as to what to train for. My choice would simply be to work on my technique. When your technique becomes proficient, speed will follow as will power.
I once asked on this board how to train for speed - I was told to practice the techniques slowly. Having done this I noticed several problems with my techniques which I have been able to correct and my speed on those techniques has really improved. The way we are taught in hapkido, at least 90% of our power is generated through the hips. Hence if we can do the techniques correctly then our hips are behind our strike and provide power.

Hope that made sense

Respectfully,

[SRyuFighter]

I myself am somewhat balanced but lean more to the power side. I however, have a lot of accuracy to all of my hits count. I think that it is better to be balanced. In all of my experiences someone who is pure speed really couldn't hurt a fly. But someone who is too strong couldn't hit anyone. So I say balanced, I know that's not what you were wanting to hear.

[sweeper]

well you can train for speed and power through physical exercises specific to the motion in genneral, but the gains you would get from that would be insignificant if you had bad technique.

I would say power tends to be more important than speed in genneral, basicly you only need as much speed as is nessisaray to hit a target and the better timming you have the less speed you need. if you can hit the target the more power you have the better. But having said that if you are way out of balance and you can hit realy hard but you are so slow anyone can get out of the way, it doesn't matter because anything you throw that can't hit the target is useless. In otherwords you need speed to get there and power to do dammage, but as fringe dweller pointed out, they have a close relation in training methods.

Also I wouldn't spar for points all the time if you intend to be practicing for self deffence. In my opinion that's kinda pointless because you are diverting emphasis in your training from one thing to another.

[chufeng]

Gosh...
What about timing?
All the speed in the world is useless if your punches land like tissue paper...
All the power in the world is useless if you can't land it...
Proper timing allows you the time it takes to land a powerful technique with whatever speed is necessary to reach the target.

Remember that kinetic energy is 1/2 the mass times the square of the velocity...so to be really effective, one must maximize mass (proper stance and technique) and accelerate prior to contact (again proper technique)...BUT, to do this in a conflict requires proper timing...

:asian:
chufeng

[Elfan]

Speed is something to develop before power as speed is one of the components of power. However, most "speed drills" seems to lead to slopyness. Speed is something to work on after all the principles of motion and self defense are internalized. (ie you consitantly moving applying all the principles with no bad habbits).

See these threads:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=829

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1246

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1211

[muayThaiPerson]

Power depends on the technique. Speed comes with practice/training. And vice versa. For example, the kicking technique in Muay Thai is mainly power oriented and speed comes with more and more practice. In TKD, their kicks are lighting fast, but arent as powerful as Muay Thai. But with practice the kick gets much stronger. So its not a matter of concentration but time and effort.

[Baoquan]

Go read Chufeng's post.

now read it again.


Other posts on this thread are alos helpful; speed does come through correct technique; power specific exercises can increase ur poundage/per etc etc...but timing is the key.

If u time a lead hook correctly, so that is lands on the hinge of the jaw as ur body weight flows through the punch's vector and ur opponent moves perpendicularly to that vector, u dont need a lot of power - they fall down all by themselves.....

[Tony Starks]

theres a poster in where i train that says " speed+form=power" so they are interrelated

[jefroman]

I agree with Tony. Speed and power are related.
If you are very strong, but you lack form, you won't have loads of power.
On the other hand, if you have a lot of speed, but you lack strength, you wont have much power.

Jeff

BTW, great forum you guys have here!!

[SRyuFighter]

I agree.

[MartialArtist]

speed is power

The faster you are, you can hit somewhat harder due to physics. But then again, being able to hit fast doesn't mean power, as the 9mm is faster than a .45.

In a street fight, speed is VERY important. It helps a lot against very skilled opponents. But with unskilled opponents and thugs, power is better in my opinion because one hit, they're down. You can sacrifice power because they will lack the preception skills or general physical and mental instinct to defend against a powerful attack. Speed also isn't that important because an untrained person will choreograph and exaggerate everything, so you can see it coming. But also, you might face people who've never trained in their lives and can slip better than most people. This is from my experience. You can have steel toe boots and kick him once, and they might not see it coming. But against a good person, expect for you to be kicked back, punched, or get your leg snagged. SPEED.

But again, for skilled opponents, you need to be able to hit faster, move faster, percieve faster, and be faster than his attacks. You need to be able to defend, block, or dodge his attacks, while you can hit him twice as many times and hit him before he sees anything coming. And also, if he's way faster (fighting speed), more powerful, more experienced, and more skilled than you, at least pray you are faster at running than he is.

[chufeng]

Martial Artist,

Back when I was a kid I trained in Western Boxing...was quite good at it...was VERY fast.

My older brother (who out weighed me by maybe 5 pounds) was slow and ponderous...

One day I got REALLY pissed at him...Dad made us put on the gloves to settle our differences...I hit him 100 times...but then he hit me once...damn that hurt...

OK, so I get back up and go at him with increased intensity...150 punches land...and he hits me once again...I'm done...

Go back to my original post in this thread...

The reason he hit me was because: a) I wasn't hurting him...and b) He waited and timed his attack when he knew he could hit me.

After I learned a bit more about other fighting methods, he refuses to even arm-wrestle with me.

Timing is more important than speed or power because it allows you to apply speed and power at the right time.

:asian:
chufeng

[Baoquan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist

an untrained person will choreograph and exaggerate everything, so you can see it coming.

Do you mean "telegraph"??

:)

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by chufeng
Martial Artist,

Back when I was a kid I trained in Western Boxing...was quite good at it...was VERY fast.

My older brother (who out weighed me by maybe 5 pounds) was slow and ponderous...

One day I got REALLY pissed at him...Dad made us put on the gloves to settle our differences...I hit him 100 times...but then he hit me once...damn that hurt...

OK, so I get back up and go at him with increased intensity...150 punches land...and he hits me once again...I'm done...

Go back to my original post in this thread...

The reason he hit me was because: a) I wasn't hurting him...and b) He waited and timed his attack when he knew he could hit me.

After I learned a bit more about other fighting methods, he refuses to even arm-wrestle with me.

Timing is more important than speed or power because it allows you to apply speed and power at the right time.

:asian:
chufeng
Timing is not only for speed and power, but for distance judging, defending, offending, everything. Timing mixed with its cousin perception, coupled with fast reflexes make everything work.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Baoquan
Do you mean "telegraph"??

:)
yes, thanks

[DAC..florida]

Both are equally important. If your not in the ring what good is speed with no power, you may be able to hit your oponent more but if it doesnt faze them what good is it. On the flip side what good is power if you have no speed, you may be strong but if your oponent blocks everything theres no affects.

[gman]

I have been told something similar about sparring versus fighting (street fighting). Most of the teqniques we learn seem to emphisize a balance of speed and power with power being slightly more important. We do work speed drills to help with reaction time and quickness. Most of the people who go to competions say that the contact is light compared to even just the regular training we do in class. So sparring competion seems that it is much more advantageous to have great speed. Just don't think that a fool on the street cares about the speed. I guess. :idunno:

[MartialArtist]

Again, let me emphasize that speed and power are equally important on the street. Sometimes, one is more important than the other.

When fighting a slow guy (physically slow or slow to execute anything or slow perception), you have the luxury of sacrificing speed for more power. A lot of people who have little training are relatively slow with their moves, and have a lot of wasted motions. That's when power comes into play. In a schoolyard fight, or a bar fight, power is more important. In very condense places, power is more important in the sense that you attack first and hard, and speed is limited as your range of motion is well... Pretty much gone.

Against a skilled fighter, I would rather be faster than him than more powerful. You hit first, you hit right. You move so he doesn't hit you. You react when he tries to attack. See, the thing with Butterbean is, that he wins most of his bouts with power. However, that is because the boxers he faces try to make the bout more interesting. Any pro boxer could beat Butterbean IMO. They could just slip, weave, hit, and fade and repeat it over and over. But it would be a boring bout, and nobody would want to see your future bouts which is very bad for a boxer. That's why De La Hoya and Tyson are popular, because their bouts are so exciting. However, they try to make the bout interesting so they do things they normally wouldn't do. And the round limit Butterbean has is a joke.

[moromoro]

try to strive for both

[Kope]

My Sifu says over and over again:

"To be successfull you need speed, power and correct technique."

Speed is part of power, but so is strength and mass and technique.

Power is part of speed, but so is perception, timing, reflexes, strength and technique.

Correct Technique is part of speed and power.

You can't unravel these three. You can train each individually, but not one stands by itself.

Speed without power and technique gives you a fast guy who may be hard to hit but who can do no damage when he does strike and whose blocks, throws and other moves are ineffective.

Power without speed and technique gives you a brute who can't hit anything that isn't standing still, and even when he does he connects with the wrong target in a way that fails to maximize damage. And worse, who doesn't have the ability to counter anything.

Technique without power and speed gives you someone who can tell you after the fight exactly why they lost.

All three are important. Neglect any one at your own peril.

[Withered Soul]

I think you're comparing things that are very much the same. You might be thinking of the differance between semi-contact trainers who hit fast but tap and some big huge muscle-bound boxer who's slow and sluggish.
As many have said already speed is power. The faster you go, the harder you hit. I think that it's best to train in speed then power. If you can hit them and move away faster then they can then you have more chance at winning.

But I think that you wanted to compare is speed vs. strength.

[moromoro]

excellent

[zen_hydra]

While the velocity of an attack does directly correlate to the force of impact, there are other speed factors involved in training to increase ones speed in fighting. The speed of ones footwork (advancing and retreating), the speed of ones reactions, and speed at which one completes the movement of a technique (some techniques require more distance to build speed and inertia). There are obviously techniques that require more movement to execute than others. Usually, the inertia (as well as the effective mass) of the techniques that require more movement, are going to take longer from start to finish to execute than a quick, jabbing attack (that usually moves in a direct line to the target).

[Kirk]

Originally posted by gman
We do work speed drills to help with reaction time and quickness.


Can you describe some of them?

[SRyuFighter]

What was originally said here was would you rather be quicker? Or would you rather be a huge slow powerhouse?

[Kope]

No. What was originally asked was "should we be concentrating on power or speed more? Even if only slightly one way?"

The answer most people are giving is "No!" You should not be emphasizing one over the other in your training unless one is more lacking for you individually than the other.

They are both related and they both are needed.

Moreover, I'll contend that general conditioning, stamina, technique, and a host of other points are equally important as well. . .

[SRyuFighter]

Originally posted by Kope
No. What was originally asked was "should we be concentrating on power or speed more? Even if only slightly one way?"

The answer most people are giving is "No!" You should not be emphasizing one over the other in your training unless one is more lacking for you individually than the other.

They are both related and they both are needed.

Moreover, I'll contend that general conditioning, stamina, technique, and a host of other points are equally important as well. . . ]
My apologies.

[moromoro]

i still have to say you need both but first go for the power if your doing empty hand but with bladed weapons it is speed

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Kirk
Can you describe some of them?
There are many things you can do. What I teach is that speed comes in different varities although I don't use these exact terms... There's perception speed (awareness and reaction), there's reflex speed which is the time it takes for you to start the action, and physical speed, which is the physical speed of the punch, kick, block, slip, whatever.

How do I compare it with? Hmmm... A 300m hurdler. The perception speed is when you see a hurdle that's about to fall. Once you pick up on it, you "process" it instantly. Reflex speed is right after you perceive it and need to go do one of the many options you can do to get around the problem. An example would be a hurdler jumps over the entire hurdle that just fell down. The physical speed is the speed of how the person gets around the problem.

Or, just comparing a combination of reflexes/perception/awareness and physical speed, a normal 100m runner. When the gun goes bang, the instant you explode off the block. Physical speed is when you're running.

Some drills:

Awareness and Perception - My very own sucker punch drill... Where you go up and do a cheap attack (kick to groin, punch) stopping just inches. Not a very good drill, but it tests awareness and perception.

Reflex - Certain bag drills. Shout and attack, or go on the whistle, and a lot of the boxing drills where a person throws a combo and you do a cross and they slip it. There are a hundred of exercises you can do, and you aren't limited to just one.

Physical Speed - Plyometrics, speed bag, a lot of hip exercises, etc.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by the_kicking_fiend


Just wondering what people's thoughts were... should we be concentrating on power or speed more? Even if only slightly one way?

your friendly fiend,
D

Speed, targeting and penetration.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[vin2k0]

i would say both are as important as each other. Concentrate on both equally...