Hard block and parrying.

[muayThaiPerson]

which one do you think is more effective and practical? I believe that a hard block is much more practical than parrying is a lot more useful. Why?Parrying requires speed and reaction time. Striking is all about timing. If you miss a parry then you are open to another attack. hard blocks on the other hand will leave you less vulnerable to openings and will protect you against rushes

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
which one do you think is more effective and practical?

Parrying, if I understand that term to mean a non-direct contact made that guides an incoming technique away from its target rather than smashing into it and directly opposing the incoming force.


I believe that a hard block is much more practical than parrying is a lot more useful. Why?Parrying requires speed and reaction time. Striking is all about timing. If you miss a parry then you are open to another attack.

If you miss any kind of block, you are open to another attack... Then, of course, there is the issue of combinations and how to deal with defensive deflection of multiple techniques...


hard blocks on the other hand will leave you less vulnerable to openings and will protect you against rushes

How so? How do "hard blocks" necessarily protect you any better than a "parry?"

Both require correct timing to execute (pooch the timing, you get hit). Both require proper body mechanics to execute (move only partially correctly, you still get hit). The only real difference lies in the effect of the block - one causes a deflecting action, resulting in a rerouting of the incoming attack and a gradual slowdown of the attack resulting in a slower reaction and recovery rate for the attacker, while the other causes an abrupt halt in the incoming attack, potentially causing damage to the striking limb but providing an immediate opportunity to reroute the power and energy into an additional attack with another part of the body.

Please clarify your position... Good topic.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[yilisifu]

I have to agree with Yiliquan 1. Both parries and hard blocks require skill to apply effectively. A glitch in either one will leave you open to a second attack.

[Robbo]

You should also have a option for both listed on the poll. :D

Although some arts teach to block a certain way, the truth is that depending on the experiance and the situation both types of blocks can be equally effective albeit with different results.

Rob

[Yari]

If I look at hard block contra parry, which in this case I take as something "soft". I'd go for "soft".

Hard block for me is force to force. This means that you have a certain extened point to reach, typically in a direct line.

I work alot with redirecting, so parry is alot more me.

/Yari

[theletch1]

I can't say that I prefer either one more. I have a tendency to let the situation dictate which block I will use. We have several techniques in my kwoon that incorporates both types when dealing with a combination. I have fairly boney forearms so a "hard" block for me is a fairly punishing block to my attacker. My hand speed has increased a good bit since beginning my training so parry blocks are pretty good for me as well. I can't speak for anyone but myself but they both have a very valuable place in my arsenal.

respecfully,
theletch1:asian:

[tarabos]

both have advantages....

a hard or striking block can cause major damage to a limb, hence attacking the weapon.

a parry however will usually leave you more prone to counterattack and is also quicker usually than a striking block. i believe a parry takes less reaction time than a striking block. therefore your conterattack would be a bit quicker.

many disciplines that teach a striking block see that particular move evolve so to speak into the parry. in EPAK if you were to do a technique that in its ideal phase called for a striking block and you threw a quicker parry instead, one way of defining that would be "shorthand." you adapt to the attack and use the most practical defense available basically.

if you looked at it in terms of evolving...or at least proficiency...i would say that the slip, which i would include in the poll myself, is the most ideal defense usually, but is not always the easiest thing to do.

i don't believe you can put any of these....the slip, parry or striking block....above the other two. they all have their place, and all have their strenghts and weaknesses. and some people excell at different techniques. some are great at throwing those hard blocks...and can throw them quick. they are just a more natural reaction to them. whereas others, such as boxers will be more inclined to slip or parry in the ideal.

[Cruentus]

I like both! I do both, but I usually parry more often then hard block. :cool:

[sweeper]

basicly I structure my methods of deffence in a gradation from counter attack to block, usualy it goes attack (beat them to it), interception (as an attack to the limb) pary or slip and counter, block. In that order. But some things are harder to black and some harder to pary.. I wouldn't want to block a side kick because you are still gona go flying, yet it's alot harder to pary a commited roundkick than it is to block it. Personaly I think using a block can get you in trouble when you are dealing with upper body attacks, I have seen alot of people get stuck blocking because their opponant doesn't let up, alsoblocking things like elbow shots and bare knuckle blows inproperly can get your arm injured. So basicly I think you have to stack your deffencive options, parying and blocking are diffrent tools both worth understanding, whatever is most efficient and most agressive or dammaging to your opponant at the timeIs what I would argue for.

[Elfan]

Arn't there other ways to block as well beyond just "hard blocking" and "parying"?

[theletch1]

Arn't there other ways to block as well beyond just "hard blocking" and "parying"?

Sure there are but I think most of them can fall into these two very general catagories. Any block that stops forward momentum of the attack is a "hard" block, any block that redirects the attackers energy would be a "parry". I may be wrong in that but that's my take on it.

respectfully,
theletch1:asian:

[Elfan]

Originally posted by theletch1
Sure there are but I think most of them can fall into these two very general catagories. Any block that stops forward momentum of the attack is a "hard" block, any block that redirects the attackers energy would be a "parry". I may be wrong in that but that's my take on it.

respectfully,
theletch1:asian:

This if from Ed Parker's Infinite Insights into Kenpo vol 3 but there is nothing kenpo specific about it in my opinoin.

p. 5

"When executing a block, physical contact can occur: (1) when force meets force, (2) when force goes with force, (3) when force meets a neutral force, or (4) when a neutral force meets a neutral force. Because of these methods of contact, blocks need to be defind. When contact is made in case #1 it is called a striking block (a term used to escibe this particular block. It does not neccesarily inflict pain.) In case #2 a parrying block, in case #3 a positional block (or check) (if you are motionless) or ablocking strike (if you initiate the action)... In case #4, it would be reffered to as a pinning block (or check)."

In summary, 4 ways to block:

- striking
- parrying
- pinning
- positional

[theletch1]

In summary, 4 ways to block:

Thanks, Elfan, for adding to my knowledge base. As I've said before I still consider myself new to the arts. 19 months of consistent training has increased my knowledge of techniques, but I still have a lot of learning to do that doesn't get explained in a class.

Respectfully,
theletch1:asian:

[D.Cobb]

For me it depends where I end up as the situation unfolds.

If I end up on the inside, I would prefer to block heavily to the inside of his forearms, there by keeping him at a distance where I am less likely to be hit and more likely to be able to do damage.

If I am on the outside, I would prefer to parry, as this will cause him to come to me(if his strike is commited). Then I can utilise positional checks, and pinning checks, whilst I open a can of whooparse.

--Dave

:asian:

[Elfan]

Originally posted by theletch1
Thanks, Elfan, for adding to my knowledge base. As I've said before I still consider myself new to the arts. 19 months of consistent training has increased my knowledge of techniques, but I still have a lot of learning to do that doesn't get explained in a class.

Respectfully,
theletch1:asian:

Glad I could help.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
which one do you think is more effective and practical? I believe that a hard block is much more practical than parrying is a lot more useful. Why?Parrying requires speed and reaction time. Striking is all about timing. If you miss a parry then you are open to another attack. hard blocks on the other hand will leave you less vulnerable to openings and will protect you against rushes

Do you how many people have broken their hands/arms in blocking? ;) Good luck.

[Zepp]

Hard, sweeping blocks that knock an opponents arm or leg off to the side are my preference. It almost always give you an opening and in the case of kicks, can affect their balance.

Parrying by slighty redirecting a blow is what I end up doing most of the time, just because its a faster defense.

Just putting your arms or shin in the way of a strike and absorbing the blow there is a last resort. That's the way I would think people most often get broken hands or arms.

Doesn't Wing Chun teach techniques that are about redirecting your opponent's momentum back at them? If you've got the skill to make those techniques work, that'd probably be the most effective.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Do you how many people have broken their hands/arms in blocking? ;) Good luck.

They broke their hands/arms only because of two things -

Wrong technique for the wrong situation.

Improper conditioning or improper execution of the block.

Some folks just don't know...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[muayThaiPerson]

Most people who fight in the streets just punch. They usually keep punching non stop and some grabbing is involved. Rarely have i seen kicks. and when i do, they are cheap toe kicks with the shoe.

Punching, when its non stop, is very hard to parry. Given that theres a lot of movement involved compared to hard block. Theoretically, parrying will get the opponent open to a counterattack. Thats true if they are going 70%(something like that). But in reality, a hard block will give you the advantage.

For example, the way we block a hook in muay thai, our arm blocks the side of our head almost completely. The hand near the back of the head and the elbow is pointing forward.....If an individual hooks, then they will definatly be open to an elbow to the face. Once he hooks, hes on the outside, thus gives you the advantage. If you have experience in fighting, then you will understand what i mean.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Most people who fight in the streets just punch. They usually keep punching non stop and some grabbing is involved. Rarely have i seen kicks. and when i do, they are cheap toe kicks with the shoe.

Punching, when its non stop, is very hard to parry. Given that theres a lot of movement involved compared to hard block. Theoretically, parrying will get the opponent open to a counterattack. Thats true if they are going 70%(something like that). But in reality, a hard block will give you the advantage.

For example, the way we block a hook in muay thai, our arm blocks the side of our head almost completely. The hand near the back of the head and the elbow is pointing forward.....If an individual hooks, then they will definatly be open to an elbow to the face. Once he hooks, hes on the outside, thus gives you the advantage. If you have experience in fighting, then you will understand what i mean.
And if you have experience with fighting (I'm not suggesting you go out and get some street experience), you'd know you'd fight all kinds of enemies. Not everyone is some thug who just swings around randomly.

Like the people said, there are times for blocking, and times for parrying. A good example is look at Roy Jr. When he's inside, weaving around, he's blocking and covering his head. When he's outside, he sometimes likes to just slip or just smack it away.

Again, it depends on the situation. If you just rely on blocks, and face a VERY FAST and VERY SMART opponent... Blocks need to work with movement (body motion and footwork) and with parries. Cause if you block one area of the body, a smart and quick fighter will start attacking another part. Cover your face, and the guy works your stomach. Unless you were experienced, very fast, and have perception skills beyond our understanding, you're going to be in deep trouble. Because a street fight isn't like a ring fight. A street fight lasts 30 seconds or less, and it's like an all-out burst most of the time. And the attacker always has the advantage over a passive, blocker-type fighter in a no-rule street fight. I remember seeing a fight with de la Hoya who did the same thing. When the guy covered his face, he threw an uppercut and started working the midsection. When the guy kinda leaned forward from all the hits to the midsection, he connected with a nice hook.

[muayThaiPerson]

From what you saying, the defender is only defending not offending. When you block his hit, you standing your ground and have the advantage a leg attack. From doing rough sparring, I used to back up, but my opponent helped me by telling me to stand my ground and attack. I found it useful. Parrying requeries leaning which takes more time than hard blocks. Therefore making you open to more attacks.

[sweeper]

why do you lean when you parry?

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Most people who fight in the streets just punch. They usually keep punching non stop and some grabbing is involved. Rarely have i seen kicks. and when i do, they are cheap toe kicks with the shoe.

Punching, when its non stop, is very hard to parry. Given that theres a lot of movement involved compared to hard block. Theoretically, parrying will get the opponent open to a counterattack. Thats true if they are going 70%(something like that). But in reality, a hard block will give you the advantage.

For example, the way we block a hook in muay thai, our arm blocks the side of our head almost completely. The hand near the back of the head and the elbow is pointing forward.....If an individual hooks, then they will definatly be open to an elbow to the face. Once he hooks, hes on the outside, thus gives you the advantage. If you have experience in fighting, then you will understand what i mean.

And if you knew how to fight, you'd know that it is just as easy to parry continuous punches as it is to parry just 1. In fact when you parry correctly, and do your stuff, it will be the only punch that he throws, if you do it correctly. :shrug:

And in case you ask, yes that is experience speaking!
--Dave


:asian:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Because a street fight isn't like a ring fight. A street fight lasts 30 seconds or less, and it's like an all-out burst most of the time.

Man, that's a long fight.....

I would prefer, it was over in less than 10.

--Dave

:asian:

[muayThaiPerson]

Look. No one moves at Mach 1, you cant expect to parry EVERY punch. And for the guy who said "who leans when they parry", how do you expect to parry while standing there?? Are you gonna keep moving back? What if you trip? Then your screwed

[yilisifu]

We never lean when we parry. We move our entire bodies out of the line of fire. Leaning causes a loss of balance and root and leaves one vulnerable to a quick defeat.

No, no one moves at mach one...but if you have to parry or block more than once or twice, your technique needs more work.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Look. No one moves at Mach 1, you cant expect to parry EVERY punch. And for the guy who said "who leans when they parry", how do you expect to parry while standing there?? Are you gonna keep moving back? What if you trip? Then your screwed
And you're never going to block every punch either. If you're inside, it's easier to block. When you're outside, it's easier and quicker to just parry. And, if you block, you leave that quick second open for another attack. It's a tactic that everyone does, regardless of style. Hell, it's even in basketball, or soccer (football).

Are you going to keep moving back? No. But take a tip from Ali, who would frequently move back, move side to side, etc.

Trip? You practice so you don't trip. However, there will be the chance on the street that you might trip over something. If you stand still and block, you are basically a standing target. Give me a fighter who doesn't move frequently, and I give you a dead one. Even Butterbean moves around quite a bit for a fat man.

[sweeper]

well I was gona say what yilisifu said :-p

yeah when I parry I do so moving side to side, either away or twards the attacking limb, away to get out of the way, twards if my parry can totaly control the attack and to position myself away from the other arm.

also parrying doesn't mean you can't attack, when I parry I want their hand/arm to be out of position so I can hit before their arm comes back into the guard. I also might parry on oneside and block on the other. So if someone throws a cross I might parry it out or in, block the incomming hook and simultaniously throw a straight hand off the parrying arm. And of course there is always a simultanious or near simultanious attack/parry, where you parry out and cross or something like that.

I mean you don't have to parry all the time, and I don't think you should, butparrying and block are two aspects of deffence that you have to use in coordination with other aspects, like footwork and head movement. If you are in a good position it's hard for your opponant to hit you, if you have good body/head movement and good footwork a parry can assist a slip or bobing or whatever.

[TragicHero]

I go with the "get out of the way": approach myself. Well, more like, "move post-haste to the side, putting up a redirecting hand as an insurance policy". Then, hopefully, I'm to his side and I counter.
I did some Wing Chun, so I got used to the whole concept of always striking when I block too... in my current art (a Shaolin style) we always try to move off-line and/or use the force of the attack against the partner. So I might move out of the way from your punch/kick, or I might just go with the energy, 'guiding' you in a circular rotation that takes all that energy and moves it more towards moving *you* off-balance (and perhaps even down to the ground if I do it right...).

Or I might hard block. It's better than getting hit. But as my sifu always points out, that is power against power. Can be risky. If you're smart, you do the same thing Wing Chun advocates -- you redirect the energy off the line they are throwing it... hard to counter me pushing your arm off at a 90 degree angle to the direction of your force.

But I still stick with the "getting out of the way" option :-). We do side-stepping drills *every class*, so even if you're not a 16-year old with the reflexes of a gazelle, you learn to get out of the way. We have a 60 year old lady in our class that manages it just fine :-). She's just learned to 'read' the opponent and give herself the maximum amount of time to move efficiently :-)

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
They broke their hands/arms only because of two things -

Wrong technique for the wrong situation.

Improper conditioning or improper execution of the block.

Some folks just don't know...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

They are all young bucks and newbies who tried to apply the classical blocking techniques.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Most people who fight in the streets just punch. They usually keep punching non stop and some grabbing is involved. Rarely have i seen kicks. and when i do, they are cheap toe kicks with the shoe.

Punching, when its non stop, is very hard to parry. Given that theres a lot of movement involved compared to hard block. Theoretically, parrying will get the opponent open to a counterattack. Thats true if they are going 70%(something like that). But in reality, a hard block will give you the advantage.

For example, the way we block a hook in muay thai, our arm blocks the side of our head almost completely. The hand near the back of the head and the elbow is pointing forward.....If an individual hooks, then they will definatly be open to an elbow to the face. Once he hooks, hes on the outside, thus gives you the advantage. If you have experience in fighting, then you will understand what i mean.


Actually that is a good observation. Most of the street fight is simply a barrage of left and right punches that come raining down on you all of a sudden. Surprisingly that actually has taken down a lot of pros. I have seen many COPS gone down under this attack! lol Yes, I know many of you will get indignant about this. But I have seen this happened. Even Wing Chun great,William Cheung got jumped by the young Bozteppe (sp). Later he complained that he got JUMPED! HA! I guess he finally knew how the rest of us felt! lol

Come to think of it, isn't this barrage of left and right punches what Bruce Lee and the JKD folks called the "straight blast"?

[tarabos]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Come to think of it, isn't this barrage of left and right punches what Bruce Lee and the JKD folks called the "straight blast"?

yep...Paul Vunak practices a pretty vicious straight blast barrage in which he charges his opponent (pretty much just running at him really) and fires off alternating straight blasts til he gets the results he wants. i'd say quick footwork would be the best asset to have against an attack like that, especially if it's Vunak flying at you.

[sweeper]

well a straight blast is a series of straight punches, genneraly they aren't as commited as crosses but more so than jabs because your body tends to square off as you are using both arms equaly. Basicly it's like a wing chun chain punch.

I don't know exactly what the street barrage thing that you are tlaking about is, if it's all straight punches than it's probably like the JKD thing, if it is just a bunch of wiald punches it probably isn't.

[muayThaiPerson]

If you watch MMA fights, you can see the fighters take the hits, thats why they dont move back as much as street fight. The speed people on the streets move at you is really fast. You cant just expect to hop back once and own it. If you moving back, you mine as well run away because he aint gonna stop. Without standing you ground, theres no chance you'll ever hit him. Parrying is good when your on the outside but it will keep you on the outside. Stepping in and blocking will get you to the inside. When i mentioned experience, I didnt mean competetions with rules. I meant bare fist attacks.

[Mormegil]

You can parry and step inside too.

I would prefer to parry with one hand, and strike with the other simultaenously.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Actually that is a good observation. Most of the street fight is simply a barrage of left and right punches that come raining down on you all of a sudden. Surprisingly that actually has taken down a lot of pros. I have seen many COPS gone down under this attack! lol Yes, I know many of you will get indignant about this. But I have seen this happened. Even Wing Chun great,William Cheung got jumped by the young Bozteppe (sp). Later he complained that he got JUMPED! HA! I guess he finally knew how the rest of us felt! lol

Come to think of it, isn't this barrage of left and right punches what Bruce Lee and the JKD folks called the "straight blast"?
Emin Botzepe is a thug, no more, no less. Shame that all his talent goes to waste.

Anyway, it was more of a professional exhibition match, like pretty much a lot of matches such as a UFC match, or a bout. But Botzepe took it like a street fight. He even threatened the Gracies when the Gracies primarily focus on pro fighting, not street fighting. Yeah, some of the Gracies talk a lot, but how much Emin does... That's just unprofessional.

[muayThaiPerson]

Originally posted by Mormegil
You can parry and step inside too.

I would prefer to parry with one hand, and strike with the other simultaenously.

What do you mean?

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
They are all young bucks and newbies who tried to apply the classical blocking techniques.

Because, as we all know, classical blocking just doesn't work, right?

Keep on fooling yourself and considering mini-mall kah-rah-tay to be exemplary of classical training...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[tarabos]

Originally posted by sweeper
well a straight blast is a series of straight punches, genneraly they aren't as commited as crosses but more so than jabs because your body tends to square off as you are using both arms equaly. Basicly it's like a wing chun chain punch.

I don't know exactly what the street barrage thing that you are tlaking about is, if it's all straight punches than it's probably like the JKD thing, if it is just a bunch of wiald punches it probably isn't.

pretty much a jkd thing....and if you wanted to get annoyingly technical, A straight blast is just one punch...i called it a barrage because that's really the only way to describe it.

some would call it a straight blast...some would call it a vertical punch...but it's not what i would call uncontrolled punching...it may seem wild but it's far from uncontrolled. i watched an MMA match...UFC i believe where this basically got a fighter the knockout....it's on one of the sherdog highlight vid clips too.

[Mike Clarke]

I have video footage of William Chung taking a beating in Germany some years back. Is this the fight you guys are talking about?
He was teaching a class at the time and is challenged by a guy who walks up to him and starts hitting. They go to ground and Chung ends up under his attacker looking quite helpless within a few seconds.
Can't say I was impressed by his skill [?] at all.

Mike.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Emin Botzepe is a thug, no more, no less. Shame that all his talent goes to waste.

Anyway, it was more of a professional exhibition match, like pretty much a lot of matches such as a UFC match, or a bout. But Botzepe took it like a street fight. He even threatened the Gracies when the Gracies primarily focus on pro fighting, not street fighting. Yeah, some of the Gracies talk a lot, but how much Emin does... That's just unprofessional.

That was not even a fight at all. Botzepe challenged W Cheung. Since Botzepe was Cheung's junior and Cheung ignored his challenge, but told him he would have to wait till Cheung was done with a speech he was about to give. But Botzepe jumped him from the back. The 2 rolled around on the floor. A few punches from Boztepe. A few struggle by Cheung to get up. Everyone else was looking at the 2. No one interfered. LMAO. Then it was all over. A pretty sad fight if you ask me.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by sweeper
well a straight blast is a series of straight punches, genneraly they aren't as commited as crosses but more so than jabs because your body tends to square off as you are using both arms equaly. Basicly it's like a wing chun chain punch.

I don't know exactly what the street barrage thing that you are tlaking about is, if it's all straight punches than it's probably like the JKD thing, if it is just a bunch of wiald punches it probably isn't.

Hooks or crosses.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
I have video footage of William Chung taking a beating in Germany some years back. Is this the fight you guys are talking about?
He was teaching a class at the time and is challenged by a guy who walks up to him and starts hitting. They go to ground and Chung ends up under his attacker looking quite helpless within a few seconds.
Can't say I was impressed by his skill [?] at all.

Mike.

THat's the one.

Heck, that was no different from what you would see in the school yard fight.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Because, as we all know, classical blocking just doesn't work, right?

Keep on fooling yourself and considering mini-mall kah-rah-tay to be exemplary of classical training...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Hardly what you have presumed. My position is shared by people who out ranked me and out experienced me (actually longer than I have lived).

If you can make classical blocking works for you, great. Keep blocking then . ;)

But there are alternative techniques available.

[Johnathan Napalm]

BTW, have you heard of this fellow Jerry Beasley? He hangs with the Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace folk. May be I should ask Yilisifu this question as he was in the competition circuit when these folks were active back then.

[yilisifu]

I remember hearing about Jerry, although I never met him. Ah, those were the days........

Hill? What hill? I don't remember seeing any hill.........

[theletch1]

Jerry Beasely is a professor at Radford University in Radford Virginia and is the head of AIKIA. He runs a seminar each summer with quite a variety of different styles and disciplines represented. I live about 30 minutes north of Radford so I intend to attend the seminar this year. I'll let ya know how it goes. Here's the link to his site.

http://www.aikia.net/

[sweeper]

A straight blast is just one punch

Didn't know that, it was always described to me as at leaste two.


Parrying is good when your on the outside but it will keep you on the outside. Stepping in and blocking will get you to the inside.

I would agree with that for the most part, but parrying can also give you an oppening so you can come in on the offencive (or at least more so than blocking). And it deppends on what you want to do, like if I wanted to take someone down, I would just take a hit on the way in. but I would prefer to stay outside actualy :-p

[Johnathan Napalm]

Oh c'mon! Straight blast is NOT just ONE punch! What he means is a barrage of ONE type of punch. Like chain punching you with straight punches. It is not a blind fury of mixed hooks and crosses or whatever.

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
What do you mean?

Sorry for the long delay on the reply. I wasn't following the thread.

For the simultaenous parry and strike, I would emphasize the parry, and go for the "bonus" strike with the opposite hand as I slip.

So for example, if I'm in matched left leads with an opponent, and he throws a jab, I would slip forward and to the right (his outside), as I parry with my right hand against his outside forearm (just in case he tracks my slip). As I make this move, I also fire my lead jab under his jab. Hopefully, I will score on him. An alternative to the lead jab to his face, would be a finger jab towards the eyes (fanned out fingers - no good with gloves). Or if I didn't move in enough, or he has a longer reach, I might also "gunting" or punch his bicep. There's a nerve in there somewhere, and hitting it can mess up the arm for a few seconds to a couple of minutes (not exactly 100%). It usually takes a few seconds for this nerve shot to take effect. Once more, this doesn't work too well with gloves on. I've usually practiced it with slaps instead of fists, and it hurts enough like that. It takes some practice to aim it right. That's another reason for the right parry, to help guide the left nerve strike.



You could also hard block and strike at the same time. For example, a Wing Chun / Jun Fan technique, where you block a left hook (for example) with a right palm up block (tan sao) or palm down block (biu sao) while delivering a left punch. You can also do a boxing cover and punch.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
If you watch MMA fights, you can see the fighters take the hits, thats why they dont move back as much as street fight

Are we talking about sports contests now?


Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
The speed people on the streets move at you is really fast.

And mostly controlled by adrenal dump. That's why when you watch security footage of street fights, most times they throw these wild hooking type punches that mostly miss, and they do this without taking a step. This is because adrenalin, causes your hips to lock up, and causes you to lose depth perception. That is uless, of course you have had the training required to deal with it.


Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
You cant just expect to hop back once and own it. If you moving back, you mine as well run away because he aint gonna stop. Without standing you ground, theres no chance you'll ever hit him.

To parry correctly you would need to move forward. Moving back whilst in contact range can be detrimental to your health. As for standing your ground, 1 word...
OUCH!!!

Man, you gotta move!!


Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Parrying is good when your on the outside but it will keep you on the outside. Stepping in and blocking will get you to the inside.

Why the hell would you want to go to the inside?
If I'm in a fight I don't want to have to prove to this guy just how fit I am......
I want the fight finshed, so I go to the outside and check his movement with traps and checks, to make sure that I am doing the hitting, not recieving the hits. I can trap with one hand, and hit with the other.... whilst my legs are dancing a tattoo all up and down his leg.
If I go inside I will have to face all of his weapons, if I go outside, I am in control of his closest weapons, which means he can't use the other ones...
You do the math.......


Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
When i mentioned experience, I didnt mean competetions with rules. I meant bare fist attacks.

I have never fought in competitions...........
And I wasn't refering to school yard tostesterone(?) exhibitions.
I was talking about real fights with fists bottles knives and clubs. I have been there and done that.
I have won some and lost some, but yes I really do know what I'm talking about....

--Dave





:shrug:

[pittjunky]

It's a matter of personal prefrence and also the situation at the time. I prifer a swift perry and counter move myself.

[muayThaiPerson]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Are we talking about sports contests now?



And mostly controlled by adrenal dump. That's why when you watch security footage of street fights, most times they throw these wild hooking type punches that mostly miss, and they do this without taking a step. This is because adrenalin, causes your hips to lock up, and causes you to lose depth perception. That is uless, of course you have had the training required to deal with it.



To parry correctly you would need to move forward. Moving back whilst in contact range can be detrimental to your health. As for standing your ground, 1 word...
OUCH!!!

Man, you gotta move!!



Why the hell would you want to go to the inside?
If I'm in a fight I don't want to have to prove to this guy just how fit I am......
I want the fight finshed, so I go to the outside and check his movement with traps and checks, to make sure that I am doing the hitting, not recieving the hits. I can trap with one hand, and hit with the other.... whilst my legs are dancing a tattoo all up and down his leg.
If I go inside I will have to face all of his weapons, if I go outside, I am in control of his closest weapons, which means he can't use the other ones...
You do the math.......



I have never fought in competitions...........
And I wasn't refering to school yard tostesterone(?) exhibitions.
I was talking about real fights with fists bottles knives and clubs. I have been there and done that.
I have won some and lost some, but yes I really do know what I'm talking about....

--Dave





:shrug:


Your talking as if you know it all. School Yard fights? These are crews and gansters. This is high school not middle school, there are no cheap schoolyard crap.


Why the hell would you want to go to the inside?
If I'm in a fight I don't want to have to prove to this guy just how fit I am......
I want the fight finshed, so I go to the outside and check his movement with traps and checks, to make sure that I am doing the hitting, not recieving the hits. I can trap with one hand, and hit with the other.... whilst my legs are dancing a tattoo all up and down his leg.
If I go inside I will have to face all of his weapons, if I go outside, I am in control of his closest weapons, which means he can't use the other ones...
You do the math.......

unfortunatley, fights arent theory, theyre reality. You cant expect to end your fight like this. When your on the outside, theres no reach, the only strike your can make is with the tip of your toes.


And mostly controlled by adrenal dump. That's why when you watch security footage of street fights, most times they throw these wild hooking type punches that mostly miss, and they do this without taking a step. This is because adrenalin, causes your hips to lock up, and causes you to lose depth perception. That is uless, of course you have had the training required to deal with it.

Do you think everyone fights like this? People who have gotten in many fights have experience, they know what to do.
As for the "Are we talking about sports contests now?", MMA fights are far more than contest, these are grown adults who have the skill to put you in the hospital..not a amatuer TKD match.

:rolleyes:

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
What do you mean?

If your question was about parrying and stepping inside, not just the simultaenous parry / strike:

On a left matched lead rear cross, for example, you can slip inside, with a right hand parry to the outside over your left arm, while you finger jab to the eyes with the left hand. You have to be wary of his left hand in this case, as you're technically open on that line, but your right hand should be close enough to your face to catch a jab or even a hook to the head, and you can always drop your forearm to catch any low line left punch. It's also a nice setup to enter with a rear elbow.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Your talking as if you know it all. School Yard fights? These are crews and gansters. This is high school not middle school, there are no cheap schoolyard crap.

Sorry dude, school is school. Granted these days human life is a lot cheaper than when I was in school, but we still did the dance!
Mind you these days it is the kid with the gun that wins!
But your original question was to block or parry. All I did was give you my answer.



unfortunatley, fights arent theory, theyre reality. You cant expect to end your fight like this. When your on the outside, theres no reach, the only strike your can make is with the tip of your toes.

If you can't use your feet effectively then use your hands. If I'm on your outside pressed up against you and beating a tattoo of pain from the top of your head to the softest part of your kidneys, why on earth would I want to kick? The closest thing to a kick that I would want to throw in this situation is a knee to the thigh muscles.



Do you think everyone fights like this? People who have gotten in many fights have experience, they know what to do..

Notice, I said MOSTLY. Of course there are some that know what to do, but in MOST cases, those that know what to do, don't put themselves in a position where they need to.




As for the "Are we talking about sports contests now?", MMA fights are far more than contest, these are grown adults who have the skill to put you in the hospital..not a amatuer TKD match.


I never questioned the age of the practitioners or the severity of their techniques. You are trying to compare MMA competitions with street fights. It's like comparing go-karts with F1 cars. No matter how tough these guys are, in the ring they fight supervised and with rules. I'm not saying they can't fight, what I am saying is their ring fights are not street fights.
Which ever way you look at it, they are just a contest, no more no less.

Oh and by the way, I have met some amatuer TKD guys that could put you in hospital. As always, it's not about style, it's about the practitioner.

--Dave

:asian:

[muayThaiPerson]

You dont even know me, how could you say you've met amatuer TKD ppl that could put me in the hospital. Unless they're older than me, taller than me, and wieght more than me, then its a different story.

What I meant by Amauetr tkd fight was the tagging and all. theres no violence, just points. I didnt say that TKD sucked or anything.


Knee to the thigh?! Please. I bet youve never utilized your knee before. Do you think these guys close their eyes when they fight? They are aiming for what they see, wherever you move, thats were their headed

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
You dont even know me, how could you say you've met amatuer TKD ppl that could put me in the hospital. Unless they're older than me, taller than me, and wieght more than me, then its a different story.

What I meant by Amauetr tkd fight was the tagging and all. theres no violence, just points. I didnt say that TKD sucked or anything.


Knee to the thigh?! Please. I bet youve never utilized your knee before. Do you think these guys close their eyes when they fight? They are aiming for what they see, wherever you move, thats were their headed

I hope you don't fight, the way you communicate. Your original comment was;


As for the "Are we talking about sports contests now?", MMA fights are far more than contest, these are grown adults who have the skill to put you in the hospital..not a amatuer TKD match.



Just as you weren't referring to me personally, I wasn't referring to you either. Like you say, I don't know you and I make no pretense of that, I am just trying to make a point.

The whole point of being on the outside of your opponent is to limit what they see, so that you can do more to them than they can do to you.

Hey try it with a friend or training partner. Start on the outside, go slow and see if you can jam in against him and see what you can and what he can do. Go slow so that if it does work, you will know without a doubt, one way or the other.

Hey, truthfully, I don't care one way or the other whether it works for you or not, but I'm just trying to show you another option.

--Dave

:asian:

[muayThaiPerson]

Ive tried it, it doesnt work. In your profile, it says you do Karate, no punches to face right? Cuz im not sure.

If theres not face hits, then its totally different story...totally different book

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by muayThaiPerson
Ive tried it, it doesnt work. In your profile, it says you do Karate, no punches to face right? Cuz im not sure.

If theres not face hits, then its totally different story...totally different book


Sorry, but my profile says, Ryukyu Kempo. It is my understanding that Kempo is as much Karate as Kung Fu is...... Though, I haven't really done either.

As for punches to the face, Oh yeah, we gottem!!

We hit everywhere that you do. We might just do it a little differently to you.

Oh and where you say it doesn't work, I guess that just means it doesn't work for you. It may not fit with your style, and to be honest, other than what I've seen from ringside, I have absolutely no idea of how Muay Thai do things.

--Dave

:asian:

[Bod]

Muaythai person, what D.Cobb means by "outside" isn't "out of arms reach" - i.e. the boxing term, but "parrying so that you are not between the arms of your opponent" - i.e. you are at the side or even behind your opponent. This is more like the kung-fu usage of the term outside.

Only parries and checks work against strikes - unless you are wearing gloves or the strike is a slap or round punch when a glove block or cover up will work. A well practised parry can work as an off-the-flinch response which increases its usefulness. A check has to be done when the opponent has his next punch chambered, not once it's begun. Both require footwork.

Hard blocks work better against grabs, or extended guards, where you are smashing at fairly static arms.

If you are fast enough to hardblock a strike then you probably won't need to as you could be somewhere else doing something far more destructive.

[8253]

I like parrying myself. It dosent require any more speed or reaction time than a hard block and it generaly uses less energy than a hard block. It can also be less painfull.

[Simon Curran]

I am going to be enigmatic here and say both are and neither are...

In my opinion you should do whatever is appropriate at the time, be it blocking, parrying, counter striking,pre-emptive striking, whatever.
Just an opinion.:asian:

[Bammx2]

I am going to be enigmatic here and say both are and neither are...

In my opinion you should do whatever is appropriate at the time, be it blocking, parrying, counter striking,pre-emptive striking, whatever.
Just an opinion.:asian:
I'm there! I must agree with this statement. Neither is better than the other. I have used both depending on the situation,so therefore, I train and teach both.

[Autocrat]

OK - good topic... do you feel like re-doing it with more options.... say do 2 polls... one against a soft attack, (jab, push, lead hand strike, snap kick or any cumbersome front round attack such as round house K/P, uppercut etc.), and a second poll against a hard attack, (cross, chop, drive punch, spear hand, thrust kick, axe kick etc.)

You know, give us more options as well, soft block, hard block, parry, take etc.

Then I think you will see some real results in peoples prefences... some style practice set modes of defence, others are more flexible... then there is preference.... have a go!