Fitness for MA training

[Wmarden]

Would this be the appropriate forum for discussing general fitness training for martial arts? I looked and this does seem the most appropriate. I have some questions and ideas I would like to run up the flag and see if anybody salutes. This seems to be the best place to ask.

[Jill666]

Health tips for the martial artist-

discussion on conditioning & weight training etc. there.

Welcome to MT! Enjoy :D

[Wmarden]

I missed it. Once I get my ideas and questions formulated a little better I will post them. Still trying to get my ideas down before I get feedback.

[brianhunter]

I think its pretty cool that Joe Weider and Muscle and Fitness have even gotten envolved with martial arts of late!

[ECYili]

Russian Kettle Bell training is very good for martial arts. It develops muscle strength and stamina that's condusive for martial arts. You can find out what you need at www.dragondoor.com They have sections just for martial artists.

[Matt Stone]

Dan -

Are you lifting now, too? KB seems to be spreading through Yiliquan like wildfire! I know I am going to encourage KB training when I start the Fort Lewis group...

[Quick Sand]

Sorry if I sound naive but I really don't know anything about this. Is kettlebell training much different from regular weight lifting?

Other then the shape of the weights of course. :rolleyes:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Quick Sand
Sorry if I sound naive but I really don't know anything about this. Is kettlebell training much different from regular weight lifting?

Other then the shape of the weights of course. :rolleyes:

The principles of lifting, the modifications to some lifting techniques, and the idea of irradiation rather than isolation are the hallmarks of KB training.

Sure, you're still "just" lifting heavy weights, but I can honestly say that doing some exercises with just a 35 pound / 16 kg weight can smoke someone that is comfortable doing "regular" lifting with much heavier weights.

Check out www.dragondoor.com if you are interested in more info.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Johnathan Napalm]

It would be nice to see some independent reports on KB, other than from the Russians who are selling KB.

[sweeper]

well yiliquan1 is an american

[KenpoGirl]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
The principles of lifting, the modifications to some lifting techniques, and the idea of irradiation rather than isolation are the hallmarks of KB training.

Sure, you're still "just" lifting heavy weights, but I can honestly say that doing some exercises with just a 35 pound / 16 kg weight can smoke someone that is comfortable doing "regular" lifting with much heavier weights.

Check out www.dragondoor.com if you are interested in more info.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I looked through the site, it's an interesting workout. Something out of the ordinary which may make people keep up with it. BUT, that being said, it's a bit of an investment. The video (womans) plust two kettle balls costs $218 plus tax and shipping US funds. You'd definitely have to be serious about trying the workout before seriously considering dropping that cash. LOL especially if you no in the states like myself.

Something to think about for the future.

:)

[Matt Stone]

You are right, the prices are a bit high, and there are a few companies that are developing variants on the standard KB that Pavel and Dragondoor sell, but those alternatives are a ways off.

You can make a KB for under $35. The plans are on the internet somewhere. I bought mine, mainly because I wanted to know I had the real deal when I started out.

You don't need more than one when you start out. Using two KBs is a pretty advanced endeavor. Trust me - I'm a pretty healthy and none too out of shape guy, and I have my work cut out with the lowest "men's" KB (16kg).

I think it is well worth it, and the plus is you can train at home whenever you want.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Mike Clarke]

Hey Matt,

I was wondering if the KB exersices were anything like the kind of thing I do with the Chi-ishi and some of the other tools from Okinawan Hojo-undo?
I'm not sure if you're familiar with this kind of training?
I was also wondering if yiliquan use training tools as part of normal training?
All the tools I use originated in China, with the exception of the Kongoken which came from Hawaii.

Regards,
Mike.

[sweeper]

ok JN here are some links to info about kettlebells from various people. I only looked at the first 10 hits from google search for "kettlebells" and I didn't get any negative responces, but that doens't mean there are none out there.

http://www.holtreman.net/dragondoor/kbfaq.htm That's an FAQ related to dragondoor/Pavel Tsatsouline

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/henkin24.htm a review

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode2&articleid=110 not realy a review but info on KB use for sport enhancement.

http://www.dolfzine.com/page418.htm This is basicly a walk through of some exercises, it has a bunch of pictures so you can probably get e better idea of the motion (I don't know how acurate any of this is because I don't use KBs)

Hope those help some.

[Johnathan Napalm]

What I mean was, some indepedent scientific studies detailing why KB training is better than the bodybuilding routines we already know and use, not more of the same stuff from Dragondoor fan club. KB looks no different than the obsolete tool that Kyokushin used to use in the 60's. (Take a look at Oyama's old books.) The ancient Chinese martial artists used to train with something that looked like KB, except that it was made of stone.

[ECYili]

Hey Matt!
Yeah I've been doing kettlebell for abot 2-3 months now. It's helped out alot. I'm ready to move up in weight, just gotta get some money to buy some more.

For those who are interested. Kettlebell developes mainly core strength. You won't get huge like body builders but you'll develope functional strength. It does involve the whole body though. It goes into proper breathing methods, proper lifting methods and proper technique. It seems like it makes you stronger from the inside out. Like Yiliquan1 said a 35lb weight can challenge just about anyone at the beginning. Pavel does have various other programs available besides kettlebell. SOme of them are Power to the People, Stretching, Joint Mobilization and maybe one more.

I made my kettlebell for around $20-25. All you need is

1- 1"x6" pipe nipple
1- 3/4"x6" pipe nipple
2- 1"x3/4" reducing elbow
2- 3/4" elbows
2- 3/4" unions
4- 3/4"x2" pipe nipples
5- 5lb weights

Very simple to put together. Basically make a square with your material. The 1x6" nipple is your handle and your 3/4x6" nipple is to slide through your weights.

Hoped this helped

Dan

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
What I mean was, some indepedent scientific studies detailing why KB training is better than the bodybuilding routines we already know and use, not more of the same stuff from Dragondoor fan club. KB looks no different than the obsolete tool that Kyokushin used to use in the 60's. (Take a look at Oyama's old books.) The ancient Chinese martial artists used to train with something that looked like KB, except that it was made of stone.

First -

The main difference between what Pavel recommends and what "traditional" lifting promotes is the use of irradiation rather than isolation. When you do anything, be it a punch, a kick, lifting a box, sitting down or standing up, the muscles work together, not separately. The idea of isolating a particular muscle group works, sure. There are years and years of bodybuilders that can show how big they got from isolation. But the big name weight lifters, the guys that could uproot buildings, developed their power not from isolation but from irradiation (i.e. using coordinated lifting rather than picking out only one muscle group). This is the benefit of Pavel's training - unified, coordinated, functional strength.

Second -

Defining "obsolete" could be a chore. The kettlebell's main difference from a similarly weighted dumbbell is that the weight is not centrally located along the same axis as the grip. You can lift a 35 pound dumbbell up over your head in a single hand press pretty easily, I'd gather. Interestingly enough, doing the same press with a 16kg KB proves much more difficult since the weight is located elsewhere (in my Army office, among trained and fit soldiers, I have only found 2 other than myself that is able to perform even a single rep of an inverted KB press, much less train with multiple sets of 5 - 10; one guy almost KO'd himself as he attempted one inverted press and nearly dropped the KB on his own head!).

Old doesn't mean obsolete. The problem is that many folks throw out the old ways with the old equipment, and forget what the old equipment was for in the first place. Then, when they pick up the old equipment out of curiosity, they no longer know how to use it to produce the results gained by those who had no other methods available to them.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[sweeper]

JN if you are looking for a scientific study out of a US institution, I wouldn't hold my breath. It could be a few years.

[Wmarden]

When you cannot locate scientific studies, you must fall back on the old stand by of investigation, logic. Use what you do know to make determinations about you do not.

And do not accept scientific studies totally. One of the things I recieved in my college education is an appreciation for how screwed up some studies can be. It depends on the integrity of the researcher. Some just plain make up stuff, and this is above those who improperly draw inferences. Since you ask for scientific studies I assume you are familiar with these potential problems.

Overall I would say the science is reasonably sound. Maybe some of the hype and terms Pavel uses are slightly over the top. You want to use basic whole body routines or at least exercises that use as many muscle groups as is safely possible in coordination. The exercise that uses the most muscle groups is a clean or some variation there of. Possibly a snatch, but those require good coaching. Cleans are a reasonable substitute. DB or Kettlebell just adds to the experience.

I do as much as possible standing myself. Even ab work I do standing. Got that from Louie Simmons. Standing cable crunches are a mainstay of my routine. However I do not go out of my way to seek unstable training such as swiss ball stuff and balance board training. I do however do some odd object training. And let me tell you a session of railroad tie work will leave you hurting. In a good way.:)

[Johnathan Napalm]

I understand the problems encountered in the conduct of scientific study. Be that as it may, what does that say about non-scientific "opinions"? Even FAR more unreliable.

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
First -

The main difference between what Pavel recommends and what "traditional" lifting promotes is the use of irradiation rather than isolation. When you do anything, be it a punch, a kick, lifting a box, sitting down or standing up, the muscles work together, not separately. The idea of isolating a particular muscle group works, sure. There are years and years of bodybuilders that can show how big they got from isolation. But the big name weight lifters, the guys that could uproot buildings, developed their power not from isolation but from irradiation (i.e. using coordinated lifting rather than picking out only one muscle group). This is the benefit of Pavel's training - unified, coordinated, functional strength.


Compound movement vs Isolation. Nothing new there. Widely known already. The term "irradiation" is a new buzzword, however.


Second -

Defining "obsolete" could be a chore. The kettlebell's main difference from a similarly weighted dumbbell is that the weight is not centrally located along the same axis as the grip. You can lift a 35 pound dumbbell up over your head in a single hand press pretty easily, I'd gather. Interestingly enough, doing the same press with a 16kg KB proves much more difficult since the weight is located elsewhere (in my Army office, among trained and fit soldiers, I have only found 2 other than myself that is able to perform even a single rep of an inverted KB press, much less train with multiple sets of 5 - 10; one guy almost KO'd himself as he attempted one inverted press and nearly dropped the KB on his own head!).

That is called leverage or the fulcrum effect. The difference between KB and a dumbell is that the KB places the weight farther out. That is simple leverage which requires more effort to move the weight. Simple physics.

Nothing wrong with KB. It certainly no magic there. And certainly not worth $200. Not even $20 LOL. You can just do your regular dumbell or weight lifting exercise and just DO NOT forget your forearm curl routine. Then you would be ripping the same benefit from KB training.



Old doesn't mean obsolete. The problem is that many folks throw out the old ways with the old equipment, and forget what the old equipment was for in the first place. Then, when they pick up the old equipment out of curiosity, they no longer know how to use it to produce the results gained by those who had no other methods available to them.

Old doesn't in itself mean obsolete. KB is certainly not obsolete.
I simply have a strong dose of skepticsm of people getting all the "woo! Whaaa!" from some "secret, ancient" techniques or tools or whatever. Training is scientific conditioning. It can be explained by science. If you understand the science behind it, then you may be able to improve or adopt or discard it. Basically, you just need to know how and why it works, and not simply take someone's words for it, especially not that of someone who is also selling it. lol

[Erkki]

The main benefits I see from KB training for MAists is the heavy cardio from swings and snatches and the ballistic shock training you get from snatches, cleans, etc. Having to tense your whole body for an explosive movement while maintaining root while this 36 pound canonball is trying to throw you around is a direct carryover into martial arts.
Like some have mentioned, a lot of the exercises can be done with a dumbbell. But they won't give the same results. Take the snatch, for instance. You can do the same thing with a dumbbell, however, you don't have the bell swinging over and hitting you in the arm. That makes you explosively tense your whole body for just an instant so that you can absorb the shock. The same applies for cleans. For windmills, you are not required to grip the dumbbell as hard as you have to with the KB , no matter what position you put the dumbbell in (I know, I've tried).
KB windmills, bent press, 1 legged deads, front squats, overhead squats, etc. are all terrific for building core strength. I also like performing heavy deadlifts, using Pavel's principles of irradiation. The core strength from deads combined with the ballistric and cardio training from KB's has helped me tremendously in my MA training.
But hey, whatever works for you is fine by me. ECYili, Yiliquan1 and myself prefer KB training. Your mileage may vary. I would recommend, however, that everyone pick up a copy of Pavel's book, Power to the People. It is a must read. His stretching series of tapes and books are terrific as well.

[ECYili]

Johnathan wrote

Old doesn't in itself mean obsolete. KB is certainly not obsolete.
I simply have a strong dose of skepticsm of people getting all the "woo! Whaaa!" from some "secret, ancient" techniques or tools or whatever. Training is scientific conditioning. It can be explained by science. If you understand the science behind it, then you may be able to improve or adopt or discard it. Basically, you just need to know how and why it works, and not simply take someone's words for it, especially not that of someone who is also selling it. lol



Noone here is saying the kettlebell is some ancient, mystic end-all and be-all of fitness trainning. If your skeptical that's fine, it's always good to question things. But don't let your skeptisism keep from trying new things. I myself was a little skeptical to start KB. I think it probably took me about 5-6 months after Erikki started.
I used to go to the gym 4-5 days a week and do circuit trainning and do this type of trainning and do that type of trainning. I thought that was the only way that I could keep fit and enhance my martial art. Once I started kb trainning I knew that this was better (for me) then all those other things. I'm sure Erikki will tell you the same, he is well more schooled in different types of physical exercise and conditioning.
You say it's not worth the $20 to make your own. Well what's worth more, the $20 to start kb or the $25-$35 a month/years to be a member of a fitness club?
Please do not take my comments as attacks on you. Nor am I angry at those comments. I'm just responding in converstaional fashion. Looking forword to hearing back from you.

Dan

[Erkki]

Originally posted by ECYili
If your skeptical that's fine, it's always good to question things. But don't let your skeptisism keep you from trying new things. [/B]

Thanks, Dan. You hit the nail right on the head.

[MountainSage]

Wouldn't KB training be a variant of training with a sandbag. Sandbag have been use for many century by MA to increase strength. I would guess that KB are the Russian version.

Mountain Sage

[brianhunter]

Where would someone research or buy a kettle ball??? Sounds interesting.

[Erkki]

http://www.dragondoor.com for KB products and literature (I recommend Power to the People as a starting point).

http://www.girevikmagazine.com has some cool articles and KB info, although Tyler is admittedly biased. :)

Also, read this article about the Marines' opinions of Pavel's training methods: http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/5594-8.cfm

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Erkki .... whatever works for you is fine by me. ECYili, Yiliquan1 and myself prefer KB training. Your mileage may vary. ,,,,,

Actually there is a lot of truth in that statement. Not everyone's body reacts the same way to every training routines. What works for one person many not work for another. You have to try different routines to see how your body reacts to them. If KB works for you, that is great.