pangainoon historical question

[angrywhitepajamas]

where would i be able to find any history on pangainoon, in its non ueichi ryu form?? In addition where would I be able to find andy history on the non japanese liniage practitioners? AND where would I be able to verify the claim that Tomas Jefferson practiced pangainoon (I heard about it on the Ueichi ryu virginia site). Ive mailed in my question to the people that run Jefferson's estate but there has yet to be an answer.
Here is their site:
http://www.student.virginia.edu/~uechi/
And here is the link for jefferson:
http://www.student.virginia.edu/~uechi/jefferson.html

[arnisador]

My guess is that the Thomas Jefferson story is an internal joke.

As to Pangainoon--good luck! I'd start with more Uechi-ryu sites and books. I think the Chinese art is lost and only reconstructed versions through Uechi practitioners is available, but I'm no expert.

[angrywhitepajamas]

Im slightly familiar with the different japanese groups but I'm also curious about those people who claim to practice pangai noon. The few Ueichi ryu practitioners that trained in china which I am aware of seem to have a more hsing I or taji perspective. But that is only about two people which I'm aware of. If anyone canelaborate further please do so.

[yilisifu]

I've never heard about the Thomas Jefferson thing......

But my understanding is that the Uechi system was developed from southern Chinese "crane" system(s). I have seen forms and techniques of the "Feeding Crane" style and it very closely resembles Uechi-type movements.

[paihequan]

But my understanding is that the Uechi system was developed from southern Chinese "crane" system(s). I have seen forms and techniques of the "Feeding Crane" style and it very closely resembles Uechi-type movements.

Shihequan or Feeding Crane Fist is highly unique is an art and in application. It is my belief that Shihequan has little relationship to the Uechiryu style.

Of a closer relationship to Uechiryu is the Kingairyu art (Golden Rooster/Chicken).

[arnisador]

The index knuckle strikes make it look like Southern Praying Mantis/White Eyebrow/etc. to me.

[paihequan]

The index knuckle strikes make it look like Southern Praying Mantis/White Eyebrow/etc. to me.

I agree, it does seem to have a link to the Pak Mei or even the Chuka Shaolin style with obvious influence from the Tiger style. I see very little real and identifiable White Crane in Uechiryu though

[A.R.K.]

Pangainoon, Half-hard/half soft comes from the central Fukein provinence. It incorporates the crane, tiger and dragon forms. The last I am aware of it is circa the 1880's or so.

The form that I am most familar with is a pre-Uechi version if this makes sense. Apparently Uechi has had some internal problems at the top with Kamie Uechi making uncomfortable or unpopular descisions. This however is only second hand so I can't attest to the validity. I do know that [like many arts] off-shoots have arisen. Pangainoon, Pangainoon-ryu etc. RyuShiKan states there are 4 katas involved in this system, I am only aware of three. The rest were created by Kanie Uechi after the 60's I believe in his belief they need a fill between the three.

This is the first I have heard of Thomas Jefferson...who knows :D

Don't know if this has been very helpful or not. There is a book out I believed called Uechi-Ryu Karate Do or something with a red cover and black dragon on it. It does contain some limited information on the pre-Uechi history by George Mattson or something close to that. I believe he honestly states that some is conjecture as much as been lost through the years. Good luck.

If you find out more let us know. I'm always looking for additional info.

:asian:

[angrywhitepajamas]

Thanks,
That frist bit helps a lot. Unfortunately it is true about ueichi politics. The good thing though is that here on the west coast most practitioners are a little less tolerent of factional squabbles. We normally will get together to work out and have a drink after wards. The Mattson book is nice and can be taken as more or less standard with small modifications for most ueichi schools here on the west coast, india, and australia.




I also remember hearing a guy named ZaoDaiWei claiming to be some form of Dan in pangai noon on this site. He is local to where I train at. Is he around at all??

And if any of you would like more detailed information on the schools here on the west coast
try www.okikukai.org (my sensei's site)

[arnisador]

Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas
ZaoDaiWei claiming to be some form of Dan in pangai noon on this site. He is local to where I train at. Is he around at all??


Yes, he has changed his user name to Mya Ryu Jitsu (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=1433).

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[angrywhitepajamas]

then sorry about the location confusion.

[A.R.K.]

angrywhitepajamas,

No problem :) We changed the name of the system back at the end of February.

Yes I have a Dan in Pangainoon, it is a post-Uechi off shoot that wishes to no longer be affiliated with Uechi and wanted to get back to pre-Uechi roots...if that makes any sense :D It seems like other Chinese origin systems they decided to keep belts rather than sashes or what not. Same basic techniques except fewer kata as I mentioned earlier. The only history that I am familar with though comes through Uechi sources.

I have some sources in China and Taiwan who are checking around for me on additional history and general info. I would love to learn more than I know currently.

:asian:

[chufeng]

Careful with that keyboard...


The form that I am most familar with is a pre-Uechi version if this makes sense

and then...


Yes I have a Dan in Pangainoon, it is a post-Uechi off shoot that wishes to no longer be affiliated with Uechi{/quote]

You hint at what you are getting at in the rest of that sentence:

[quote]no longer be affiliated with Uechi and wanted to get back to pre-Uechi roots...if that makes any sense

Please, fill in the blanks...you are painting a very confusing picture for the one who asked for help...

:asian:
chufeng

[arnisador]

I've heard of this before--people trying to reconstruct what Pangainoon must have been by studying Uechi-ryu. (Reminds me of the Q gospel research!) They eliminate all but the original three kata and rename it Pangainoon(-ryu), viewing it as either a system of kung fu or of karate. There are several such groups I believe, plus the karate groups that 'evolved' rather than 'devolved' from Uechi-ryu, e.g. Shohei-ryu (I think?).

So yes, Pangainoon is both pre- and post- Uechi! Whether renaming it Pangainoon is accurate or appropriate is a matter of taste and judgment I suppose.

[chufeng]

Thanks for the clarification

:asian:
chufeng

[A.R.K.]

See, not that confusing after all :cool:

Because of politics factions have broken off. And probably some existed before the 1940's which is when the system was renamed in honor of Kanbun Uechi. Since Uechi-Ryu claims to have Pangainoon as its foundation it seemed logical to those before me to return to the name. I am aware of some of the politics through associates in the Uechi system but since it is coming second hand I prefer not to comment on it. Either way it has no affect with my training in this area. I consider Pangainoon as my foundation but have embraced other techniques in other systems. To me it is a refining process of sorts.

:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas
where would i be able to find any history on pangainoon, in its non ueichi ryu form?? In addition where would I be able to find andy history on the non japanese liniage practitioners? AND where would I be able to verify the claim that Tomas Jefferson practiced pangainoon (I heard about it on the Ueichi ryu virginia site). Ive mailed in my question to the people that run Jefferson's estate but there has yet to be an answer.
Here is their site:
http://www.student.virginia.edu/~uechi/
And here is the link for jefferson:
http://www.student.virginia.edu/~uechi/jefferson.html

Good question.
You might want to email Patrick McCarthy (Martial Artist/author/MA researcher)and ask him the same question………you will be rather surprised at the answer he gives………I know I was!

[Gilor]

well you can find the main philosophy of the pangainoon here- http://www.studio81.tk

it's where i'm learning it too.
I can tell you the pangainoon means "Half soft Half hard" because when you throw a punch you should'nt tight your fingers, but only when you hit, then you must focus your energy and tight your fingers.
In pangai-noon we learn the way of the crane, dragon and the tiger

[arnisador]

well you can find the main philosophy of the pangainoon here- http://www.studio81.tk


It looks like it is recreated kung fu, from Uechi-ryu Karate, as I believe all current Pangai-noon is:


Pangainoon kung fu (also known as shorei-ryu )- the way of the tiger, dragon and crane the- half hard half soft way.

~A rare style brought from Okinawa and Hong Kong from the great Master Richard F. Ratzkoff, our great master

[Richard Ratzkoff]

If you can read Hebrew, here is a link to the "Tapuz" weekly newspaper in Israel. This article has an interview with me, Richard Ratzkoff, in relation to Pangainoon and my instruction in that art for 20 years in Israel and an additional 19 years in the USA. http://www.tapuz.co.il/tapuzforum/main/articles/default.asp?forumId=148&c=848&sc=0&ssc=0

[Jin Gang]

If there ever was a style called "pangainoon", or "half hard half soft" in whatever dialect, it probably doesn't exist anymore. I've heard it said that that was the name that Kanbun Uechi gave his school, not the name it was called in China or by his teachers. This is from a Japanese/Okinawan website which covers the various style of karate
http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/009/001/index.html

"The founder of Uechi-ryu was Kanbun Uechi (1877-1948),who went to Fuzhou in Fujian Province, China when he was 20 years old in 1897. He became a pupil of Shushiwa (1874-1926), the leading figure of Chinese Nanpa Shorin-ken, and performed ascetic practices for 13 years. After being full mastership had been conferred, Kanbun Uechi returned home, and then moved to Wakayama City, Wakayama Prefecture, where in 1925 he established the Institute of Pangainun-ryu (half-hard and soft) Todi-jutsu, the predecessor of Uechi-ryu karate-do, and began the process of launching his own dojo. In 1940, it was renamed Uechi-ryu after him."

"nanpa shorin-ken" is the Japanese way of saying "nan shaolin quan", which is south shaolin fist. This is a very generic description which includes many styles of martial arts.
From appearances, Uechi ryu (and goju ryu), have the most similarity to styles like five ancestor fist and white crane styles, and other so called "Hakka" styles, like southern mantis and maybe even Bak Mei. I say this due to the "sanchin" stance, with toes pointed in, the short arm motions and very few kicks. The actual kata, the way they are performed now, don't exactly match anything in China today. The Chinese styles generally have a "softer" appearance, especially the white crane styles. I disagree that Uechi Ryu has similarities to Hsing I Chuan(xingyiquan), as some people have suggested.

Uechi Ryu Sanseiryu
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1285036497251884257&q=uechi+ryu&total=231&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Five Ancestor Fist
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2013557206860332273&q=five+ancestor&total=87&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6475377943897412155&q=five+ancestor&total=87&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

southern white crane
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7409231171897867827&q=fujian+white+crane&total=4&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[Richard Ratzkoff]

Jim, I am Richard Ratzkoff - a practitioner of Pangainoon Kung Fu for the past 55 years. The style may not be - today - a popular one due to the strict training and limited "sport" application... on the other hand - the style is superb for the pupose of all-out personal combat. In reference to Uechiryu -- Master Uechi studued the Pangainoon style and brought it in his own form to Okinawa. George Matson, a Master of the Uechi Ryu style and a noted instructor of that style has written several books about this very subject.
As far as the practice of Pangainoon, I have had, over a period of 18 years in Israel, moe than 3,000 students - both civilian and military - and there are several of my advanced students - now instructors in their own right - carrying on the practice with students of their own. I, in fact, will be in Israel next week for a 14 day training seminar open to the public as well as practitioners of Pangainoon. You may find through google my primary student in Israel = Shai Hai and associated information.

[newtothe dark]

While not a student of either art I have read that NGO CHO is a art from southern China that very much resembles some of the Ueici kata I believe the comparison is on Sam Chien and San Chin this is a site I found on it somewhat. Not trying to start a "lineage" thing just remember an article in a magazine that gave it as a possible historical link http://www.konghankungfu.com

[arnisador]

While not a student of either art I have read that NGO CHO is a art from southern China that very much resembles some of the Ueici kata I believe the comparison is on Sam Chien and San Chin

I think that's true, and I think the comparison goes deeper than that. Alexander Co's book (http://www.amazon.com/Five-Ancestor-Fist-Kung-Fu/dp/080483153X) on this is a good resource for comparing Ngo Cho to Okinawan Karate in general. Personally, I think Uechi isn't even the art it's closest to. There is another book (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?p=14700#post14634) on it by Jose Paman due soon.

I'd love to meet a practitioner and learn more!