10 or 12 year old opens school

[tshadowchaser]

We have discussed the idea of JR. black belts before so lets try this scenario:

A 10 or 12 year old black belt moves into your community and decides to start teaching, and opens his own school or club. OR If your instructor left the area and this young person wanted to continue the school would you still attend?

Would you join his classes? If you had never studied before would you join his school?

Why or Why NOT



Let say for arguments case there are no other schools in your area.

[terryl965]

Sheldon in the first place a 10-12 year old could never get the permits to open a school so the question has no merit, now if tey where 16-17 I would have to see what they could offer me in the way of a class. Lets say they have work in the MA place since 4 nthey would have 12 years experience and I might could pick something up in the way of them, doubtful but I could. But know way a 10-12 year old lets get some type of reality.

[tshadowchaser]

He could open a club at his school or at his house lets consider that also

[Laurentkd]

I agree with Terry, a 10 or 12 year old could not run a business legally.

But, I guess it would depend on the kid. For when my first instructor disappeared some senior black belts tried to keep the school going (there were probably 3 3rd dans, and then I was 15 and a 2nd dan). I spent most of my time at the dojang helping them recall old forms. I guess they didn't mind learning from me, but I got tired of doing all the teaching real quick.

[terryl965]

Ok Sheldon lets play with this a 10- 12 year old running his own club what can he have to offer the masses, the same as a Mc dojo not much. I would never in all my years give way to a 10-12 year old just call me the skeptic.

[Mike Hamer]

No way would I let a kid teach me. I would much rather gain knowledge from someone who's been around for awhile.

Why? Well that should be obvious.

[YoungMan]

I don't think it would be legal from ANY standpoint, be it teaching, business, or insurance, for a 10-12 year old to teach Taekwondo. Invariably, a contract would have to be signed, be it business, liability waiver, insurance etc., and a child has no legal ability to do that. So it's kind of a moot point.

[IcemanSK]

Let's say he or she is a "tv phenom" & wants to open a school. (An Ernie Reyes jr.-type, if you will). He's got $$ from his tv shows & bankrolls a school in your town. Permits, insurance, etc are obtained thru his own "Jimmy Smith, INC" company. He's the main teacher, but has others as well. All the kids in town want to study under him.

Would you?

[terryl965]

Let's say he or she is a "tv phenom" & wants to open a school. (An Ernie Reyes jr.-type, if you will). He's got $$ from his tv shows & bankrolls a school in your town. Permits, insurance, etc are obtained thru his own "Jimmy Smith, INC" company. He's the main teacher, but has others as well. All the kids in town want to study under him.

Would you?

Still no way he is way to young.

[newy085]

Yeah no way would a 10-12 year old have the maturity or ability to teach. They might be decent enough to make what they do look feasable, but there is no way that a person that young would be able to help you improve. At their age they are still figuring out what their body is capable of, let alone someone elses.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Nope to 10-12 unless he could fly and shoot lazers out of his eyes then maybe....

I would want to train with someone who has been in the art long enough to have earned the right to teach and I don't find that in someone that young.

[ArmorOfGod]

Willie "The Bam" Johnson wrote a book several years back (that was mostly unreadable). In the book he tells of when he was around 10 years old, he went to his local community center and tried to start a class and they wouldn't let him. At this point, he said he had never studied any martial art and had only taught himself some stunt kicks on an old mattress in his backyard.
The odd part of the story is that he is still mad and can't understand (even now) why they didn't let him.
Does anyone have that book and can retell the story better?
Here is the book: http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Martial-Artist-Willie-Johnson/dp/0736031073
There is a reason you can buy copies for seventy three cents.

AoG

[Brian S]

Never. So, what would be the minimum age you would be a student under?

[shesulsa]

No. I might meet with him for some straight material if I had to have it, but I'd rather not. I'm not one to say that there is absolutely no one on the face of the planet I can't learn something from ... but I don't think a child that age should be teaching anything, really. *Showing* the basics to younger children and children his age, perhaps. Other than that? No.

[grydth]

He could open a club at his school or at his house lets consider that also

Others have accurately pointed out the fact that state authorities would never let this wunderkind open his own school.

However, your scenario is still a good one to debate because parents could own and operate the school but showcase him as a draw for other kids. He would just give demos and share his tips on winning tournaments.

It might just happen if a kid celeb from the Dizzy Channel hooked up with a McDojo.... imagine all the tweens wanting to do katas with the Leopard Girls or a Jonah Brother.

<Shades of Webster: I bet he'd, in the end turn, out to be a 32 year old dwarf>

[tko4u]

Probably not, besides the obvious point that he couldnt do it legally, I probably couldnt learn from a child unless he had a instructor over him and we got to learn from him regularly.

[Kacey]

Would I learn from a child? I do so all the time - both from my TKD students and from my middle school students. Would I want a child as my primary instructor? No... not because of age, per se, so much as because I don't believe that any child that age - no matter how physically skilled - could have put in sufficient training time to truly understand what s/he is teaching, nor are they developmentally ready to understand abstractions and IMHO, cannot, therefore, teach from the depth of understanding that an older, more experienced person would have.

[Kosho Gakkusei]

This thread is based entirely on a false premise - a legitimate 10-12 year old black belt.

[diamondbar1971]

shouldn't this thread be under the comedy store....get real

[Grenadier]

Not everyone can be taught in the same way that the would-be child instructor was.

To be able to adapt the program to a wide variety of students takes real life experience, something that no 12 year old will possess to a sufficient degree.

I must agree with the others, that if someone were to use such a kid as a *helper* in class, to show others how to perform the techniques correctly, then I would have no problems with that. However, a 12 year old child teaching a class isn't a good idea.

[Twin Fist]

i was gonna say, since there will never be a 10-12 year old I consider a legit black belt, I cant go any further into the "what if"

[clfsean]

No... simply no.

[tshadowchaser]

My point of this thread was and is:

If we promote these kids to black belt then why are you afraid to study under them. If they are not qualified to instruct an adult or other kids why the hell are they being promoted to black belt.
I still say the young person could open a club at his school or even in his garage. A club dose not come under the same rules and regulations as a school/business. So If your organization says this person is a qualified black belt of 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree then why would you not study under them?

Most have said NO they would not study under a child that young so to those that said NO and belong to a TKD organization or any other organization that allow black belts that young what are you saying about the beliefs you have in the ranking of your organizations and your beliefs that these belts should be awarded.

[clfsean]

Well for me it's easy & I guess I'm the Devil's Advocate or the Lone Ranger here.

We don't have ranks in our school. You're either the teacher or not. Your place in class as a student is either junior or senior to somebody depending on when you started & they started. You earn your "title" through experience & years until you're told to go teach. Then you get "the title".

I guarantee there's never been a 12 year old in our school (ever really) that would ever qualify for the title "Sifu".

[tshadowchaser]

Nor in any I have studied in and I have also been in the schools with all those starting before you being considered higher in the class order until you are a teacher

Folks forget about the legal issues of a kid opening a business and concentrate on the question "would you study under him/her" WHY? WHY NOT?

[clfsean]

Nor in any I have studied in and I have also been in the schools with all those starting before you being considered higher in the class order until you are a teacher

Just like a family... can't beat that way IMO with a stick.



Folks forget about the legal issues of a kid opening a business and concentrate on the question "would you study under him/her" WHY? WHY NOT?

Ok skipping the legalities... the answer is still no. The kid may have more technical knowledge (maybe), but the kid has no life experience to temper & mold the necessary skills to teach the art.

[terryl965]

My point of this thread was and is:

If we promote these kids to black belt then why are you afraid to study under them. If they are not qualified to instruct an adult or other kids why the hell are they being promoted to black belt.
I still say the young person could open a club at his school or even in his garage. A club dose not come under the same rules and regulations as a school/business. So If your organization says this person is a qualified black belt of 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree then why would you not study under them?

Most have said NO they would not study under a child that young so to those that said NO and belong to a TKD organization or any other organization that allow black belts that young what are you saying about the beliefs you have in the ranking of your organizations and your beliefs that these belts should be awarded.

Sheldon since I have three sons that are BB under the Kukkiwon and they are childern one is 14,12,11 I will give my take and why my answer.

Your question is would I train under a child and I said no if he was the only instructor there. I would listen to a Junior BB about techs as long as they are supervised by an adult BB like at my school. The KKW issue poom ranks which are consider a junior when they hit 16 they are elligible for a dan rank if they past the test I give to all dan ranks, remember I said eligible not automactically get to test. It is up to each person. I believe a child can earn a junior BB and still not be able to teach or open a club, Zachary my oldest is talented and you know this but he does not have the mentality at his early teenage years to run a club of his own, able to help with classes and run and help with out little guys and girls yes but to be able to handle adults sometimes and sometimes not, just the other day he said Master Stoker can you come and hep me with so and so he was an adult that was asking certain question about a tech that zachary knows the answer but was imtimitated to give the answer because the adult was trying to bait him into the wrong answer. So my answer stands with no I would not join a club that had a child as the head instructor but would listen to a child that was a Junior BB under a head instructor helping with the class.

[MJS]

Is it possible for a kid that age to run a school? IMHO no.

Is it possible for the kids parents to own the school, while this "rising star" teaches? Yes, but anyone with any common sense would stay the hell away. In all honesty, I doubt the kid would have any practical skill or knowledge. Even if he was some 'star' would it really be anything useful or would it fall into the XMA stuff? I'm thinking the latter, and frankly thats more show than anything else IMO.

To answer Sheldons last post about why we'd give them a BB but not trust them to train under...simple...thats why I don't believe in giving a BB to people under a certain age.

Now, I've used asst. instructors when I used to teach on a regular basis. However, these kids were usually older and they did not do any teaching. They simply went over the material with the lower ranked student. The teaching or correction of anything was done by an adult BB. I had parents come up to me telling me that they were not comfortable with a child teaching their child. I agreed with them, and explained that they child was not teaching, simply assisting. I or another adult BB, would make our rounds, esuring that everyone was reviewed by us. That usually put everyones mind at ease. :)

[BrandonLucas]

Ok, I think I get what the OP is saying:

Don't promote a student, ANY student, to blackbelt status if you do not feel comfortable learning directly from that student, or if you do not feel confident in their teaching ability.

In my opinion, this is what the Jr. BlackBelt program would solve...a Jr. BlackBelt is not a full blackbelt...not until they reach the age and maturity to become a full blackbelt, more than likely closer to 16 or 17.

While 16 or 17 is by no means adulthood, they still have a firmer grasp on teaching a martial art to a student than a 12 year old would.

[kidswarrior]

Would I learn from a child? I do so all the time - both from my TKD students and from my middle school students. Would I want a child as my primary instructor? No... not because of age, per se, so much as because I don't believe that any child that age - no matter how physically skilled - could have put in sufficient training time to truly understand what s/he is teaching, nor are they developmentally ready to understand abstractions and IMHO, cannot, therefore, teach from the depth of understanding that an older, more experienced person would have.
I can only say, Ditto.


The kid may have more technical knowledge (maybe), but the kid has no life experience to temper & mold the necessary skills to teach the art.

These two posts make the abstract points I would have made. As for the practical matter, we don't promote anyone to BB who isn't 'ready to fight with men' (able to physically fight off a male attacker), so that's usually minimum age 16, maybe more. While I can and do learn things from 12 year olds every day (much as Kacey does), MA's are different in that I must be able to count on what I've learned every time I go out the door. My health and well being may depend on it. I want to feel the technique applied by the teacher and gauge for myself that it would work if I practice it relentlessly and correctly (his way).

[Mimir]

To me there is another level at work in this question that has not been addressed. Just because someone has earned a blackbelt rank does not automatically make them capable of teaching. There is another whole skill set that is involved with teaching others how to do the things that you know that has nothing to do with your ability to do them. These skills must also be learned one way or another before anyone can be an effective instructor.

Having a young blackbelt teaching as the sole instructor of a school does not hold the same feelings of trust or authority that an adult would have. Does that mean they could never teach a class? No, but they would need the backing of an adult to enable them to have that authority.

[tshadowchaser]

well said Mimir

So far I have seen no one say they would study under one of these kids if that young person was the only instructor

This thread is defiantly open to more thoughts on the subject Pro or con


so I'll throw in another thought to chew on:
What if htis is the only person teaching for, let say for the argument, 100 miles. I know hard to belive in this day in age but lets consider it

[terryl965]

well said Mimir

So far I have seen no one say they would study under one of these kids if that young person was the only instructor

This thread is defiantly open to more thoughts on the subject Pro or con


so I'll throw in another thought to chew on:
What if htis is the only person teaching for, let say for the argument, 100 miles. I know hard to belive in this day in age but lets consider it

If all I had was a 12 to teach me something because he was all I had, umm I would train with him and help him teach me with the use of DVD's and Video's. For me to say this I am only admitting it is better to train than not train at all.

[BrandonLucas]

If all I had was a 12 to teach me something because he was all I had, umm I would train with him and help him teach me with the use of DVD's and Video's. For me to say this I am only admitting it is better to train than not train at all.


I agree with this 100%. I would train with a 12 year old simply so that I could train at all. I would still want to use other means of training, like books and videos, as Terry is saying.

[MJS]

well said Mimir

So far I have seen no one say they would study under one of these kids if that young person was the only instructor

This thread is defiantly open to more thoughts on the subject Pro or con


so I'll throw in another thought to chew on:
What if htis is the only person teaching for, let say for the argument, 100 miles. I know hard to belive in this day in age but lets consider it

I would a) travel the 100 mi. or b) not train at all.

[clfsean]

I would a) travel the 100 mi. or b) not train at all.

Ditto... hands down. Travel or find a replacement for MAs.

[tshadowchaser]

got to admit I travel that far to study and there are many, many schools in between that have adult instructors

[Josh Oakley]

well said Mimir

So far I have seen no one say they would study under one of these kids if that young person was the only instructor

This thread is defiantly open to more thoughts on the subject Pro or con


so I'll throw in another thought to chew on:
What if htis is the only person teaching for, let say for the argument, 100 miles. I know hard to belive in this day in age but lets consider it

I'd grab a friend and we'd see what works, and develop what we could, and approach the matter scientifically. The one notable exception might be if the kid had been training his entire life and the majority of that was against full grown adults, AND was no more than 6 inches shorter than me and could be ME in a fight.

The friend thing is the more likely choice.

[Mimir]

Hooking up and working with the kid if there were few or no alternatives would also depend on if I knew them personally. If I had first hand knowledge of their abilities and understanding of the art, then I would probably be more inclined to let them teach me. If I didn't know them, then I would be much more skeptical of their ability to teach me.

[Kacey]

"What if" is a great game to play in all sorts of situations, and people can add "what if's" to this, and any other embellishment on this scenario they like... but realistically, if I were an inexperienced beginner, I, as an adult, would be unlikely to start a martial art under a pre-teen, no matter how physically skilled, and would be even less likely to have my child start under that same pre-teen. As as experienced martial artist, I can see situations in which I would train with a pre-teen - although I'd be unlikely to have that pre-teen as my primary instructor - but as a beginner? Most adults in the US would, I think, be unwilling to train under a child for reasons of ego, if nothing else, and would be equally unwilling to leave their own children to train under a child, for safety reasons - even if the instructor is overseen by an adult, I wouldn't want my child taught MA by a pre-teen any more than I would want him/her taught gymnastics, or ice skating, or any other physically demanding and potentially dangerous skill: a 10-12 year old, no matter how skilled, does not have the life experience necessary to differentiate instruction for individual needs, nor to clearly avoid injury to students through incorrectly performed actions.

As an experienced martial artist, I will learn from anyone I can - but I have the experience and the base knowledge necessary to protect myself from injury, to understand how to integrate new skills into my existing ones, to understand the implications and potential uses of new skills whether they are taught explicitly or not... but I would still prefer an instructor with a greater amount of experience, in MA specifically and in life in general, for the reasons given above. Were no other instructor available for a particular art that I wanted to learn, then yes, I would go to a pre-teen if necessary to learn it - but it wouldn't be my first choice, and I would look for alternatives, in terms of instructors and/or similar arts first.

[MarkBarlow]

A local community center had a 14 yr old running a TKD class for short time. He inherited the class from his teacher who was in his early 20s. I've been told by more than one person that the little darlin' insisted on the students calling him Master whether in class or out. Since there were a couple of kids in the class who he went to school with, this didn't sit well with the students and the class imploded in a month or so after he took over.

[hogstooth]

Here is the problem with your question. Number one a 10 or 12 year old would not have the knowledge or maturity to teach anyone. I know that some Mcdojo's promote kids to BB very young but in my art they aren't promoted to BB until the age of 16. Until then they are considered provisional BB or Shodanho. But lets assume they are a BB at 12 and they are very knowledgeable. How is a 12 year old going to gain your confidence in the first meeting in order to convince you to join his/ her school?
Most people would have a problem with learning from someone that they could pounce into the ground just based on size and strength differences. Another problem is the stigma of learning from a kid. Wether we want to admit it or not there are a whole lot of people that do not want to learn from one individual or another based on color, race and gender much less from a kid.
Lets face it there would not be to many people signing up to learn from a 12 year old.
I will not go into the problems of a 12 year old opening a buisness but it's pretty clear to most that this would not happen. They could teach out of their back yard but not own a dojo. And what about insurance? Too many problems with it and doomed to fail.

[AMP-RYU]

Well it really just depends. My mother took over our instructors school when I was 11 and I recieved my Instructor Certification that same year. I successfully taught that school until I was 18 and went to college. It probably helped that I was 5'11" and 175 at the age of 12 but other than that, I was still 12 years old. In fact when I was 13 I recieved 3rd place in the Missouri State Black Belt and above heavy weight division in sparring out of 18 men. The reason being I was over weight in my division so they gave me a choice move up or don't compete. So my mother signed a waiver and I fought. So you can't really count out someone because of their age. I bet I could have out taught any of those men in that division!

[myusername]

A 10-12 year old? I'm sure this little fictional fella has more skill and tecniques than me and would probably be able to teach me something but it would just feel too weird to join his imaginary school! Especially if it was at his house! Can you imagine trying to explain to your partner, your work colleagues and the community at large why you are choosing to spend your free time at 10-12 year olds house, getting sweaty and wearing white pajamas! It would take a lot of explaining!

I get enough grief from my work colleagues as it is after I foolishly refered to "The Mount Position" one lunch time!

[seasoned]

When I first took Karate it was for the fighting aspect. On sparring night the Sensei would line everyone up and work the line, appropriately handling each match according to their rank. Sense at that time I know nothing about Karate, kata, or anything, that 12 yr old would have to be able to fight. If the 12 yr old could run the line and kick everyone’s a _ _ then I would have definitely consider him as my Sensei. Of course once I joined the DoJo the kids class never trained with adults on sparring night, way to dangerous. J

[Lynne]

If the boy were the only game in town, I probably would train with him for awhile.

As Kacey and others have said, a child that age cannot think abstractly and wouldn't have the indepth knowledge pertaining to application (that's not exactly what you all have said but the gist of it I think).

If I were new to MA, I would gradually realize indepth knowledge was missing and become frustrated. I'm one of those people who internalizes and asks lots of questions (well, not at school as there is hardly ever a chance - usually, I ask here).

I'd be buying DVD's and books to supplement my training.

[Gordon Nore]

As goofy as the premise seems, I recall a thread on another board years back where this actually took place. The teacher left the school, it was taken over by the parents of a very young dan who did all the teaching. Parents themselves were non-MAists who claimed they were always present when the youngster was teaching. Can't remember the name of the school. I do recall and adult student at the school chiming in on the thread and talking about how great it was and how mean the posters in the thread were for commenting on it.

[MA-Caver]

The kid's parent could open the school and the kid be the chief instructor... but another alternative is continuing education classes which to my understanding have no age limit.

But no, I wouldn't go because his curriculum would be limited to only that of a Jr. Black Belt level and couldn't go any higher... Jr. BB do not have the same level in many arts as the adult level BB's. So there would be only so much that he could teach... now if he wanted to teach other kids his age then he could... but problem for this kid is not having the experience to be a good teacher, there's more to it than just knowledge.
If I ever accomplish getting a BB in my life time, even to just 1st Dan I would still not be so presumptuous as to think I can start teaching... tutoring, assisting teaching and all that but to be chief instructor... no. I simply would not have the experience that a 2nd or 3rd degree BB would have.
I do know of several 1st degrees that do teach and run their own schools... good for them... but not good for me.
Perhaps I would be of a different mind whenever I do achieve that milestone.

[Traditionalist]

Absolutely not. And if my instructor left and some kid was left in charge then my martial arts career would just have to stay were it was and I could work on the things I would already know. I would never take on a child as an instructor.

[tshadowchaser]

Traditionalist may I inquire as to why you have answered this way.

[Gordon Nore]

I would say that classes with adults are rougher than kids' classes. My instructor once got his nose broken by a brown belt in the adult class. No biggie. Imagine how devastating it would be for all concerned if the twelve-year-old Sensei got hurt. Legalities aside, that would end some martial arts careers leave a lot of folks with a really bad taste in their mouths.

[tshadowchaser]

that is a good thought on the subject, thanks

[SA_BJJ]

One of our instructors in 20 and I think he is way too young sometimes. Good thing I am tight with our GM or else classes would not be very beneficial at times.

[Ninebird8]

I am against the whole premise of giving a child under 18 a black belt. If you give him a junior black belt, that is fine, but at 18 he should retest. Not to test his or her physical skills, but to see if his mental understanding and emotional bearing have equaled his physical skills. When I got my Master's rank in two of my styles, it had taken me over 25 years of hard, consistent training to get there. Now, to those who say look at Jet Li at age 11 winning a national championship or traveling to the White House. True, but remember that was 8-10 hours a day for years and except for school on the side, all he did without distraction. Even then, I am sure Wu Bin did not have him leading classes.

Especially these days, most kids do not have the patience or inclination to put in the time. I see my own kids, especially my 12 year old, and at that point in life their minds and bodies are beginning to change and truly evolve into what they will become. As a result, there is no way I would learn or allow to teach a kid this age, unless he/she is teaching other kids under supervision ages 5-10. But that is all.

[Daniel Sullivan]

To me there is another level at work in this question that has not been addressed. Just because someone has earned a blackbelt rank does not automatically make them capable of teaching. There is another whole skill set that is involved with teaching others how to do the things that you know that has nothing to do with your ability to do them. These skills must also be learned one way or another before anyone can be an effective instructor.

Having a young blackbelt teaching as the sole instructor of a school does not hold the same feelings of trust or authority that an adult would have. Does that mean they could never teach a class? No, but they would need the backing of an adult to enable them to have that authority.
My sentiments exactly. A black belt means that you've learned the basics, not that you're ready to teach. And a kid with a junior black belt isn't even a real black belt, so why on earth would anyone feel that his promotion to a junior bb somehow makes him a qualified teacher?

Also, there is a reason that kids aren't placed into full contact competition with adults: adults can hurt them much more easily. So what happens when a twenty year old 230 pound white belt spars with little Johnny the teacher and, being a white belt, can't control his kick and knocks out little Johnny? Or breaks his knee? Or gets out of hand in class and little Johnny can't control him?

To answer the OP, no I wouldn't. If it were the only school in a 100 mile radius, I'd buy a good DVD and a good training manual, then network with other practitioners in the area to be able to informally train.

Daniel

[Gordon Nore]

I think also a part of life is waiting for things. It's great that a twelve-year-old is adept and highly-skilled; however, twelve-year-olds should be doing twelve-year-old stuff. They should not be in charge of adults and making adult decisions.

Once in a while, you hear about a twelve-year-old taking classes at Harvard. That's different from having the kid teach classes at Harvard.

[Guardian]

For a post that supposedly had no basic ground support to it, this one has taken off LOL. I like that.

Personally, I don't see it happening, but if it did, I wouldn't personally take instructions from that young of an individual, life experiences play a part in my view into any teaching/instructing in the Martial Arts in my view. That young of age just doesn't have it.

[SA_BJJ]

I cant believe this conversation is still being entertained...lol