Shorinjin Saito-Ryu Ninjitsu

[Cthulhu]

There is also a Shorinjin Saito-Ryu Ninjitsu. Note that they use "-jItsu" rather than the more common "-jUtsu". They also implement a rather odd sword, which they call the 'Tengu sword', where the sword is 'backwards' from a typical katana or ninja-to. To be more specific: from outward (sheathed) appearance, the swords seems to be your typical sheathed blade. However, What is normally the scabbard (saya) on a normal sword is actually the long hilt/handle of the Tengu sword. The short blade (maybe a little longer than a tanto) is sheathed in what appears to be a normal sword's handle. The Journal of Asian Martial Arts ran an article by a Rev. Shannon Phelps which had pictures of the sword, as well as techinques of the system. If anyone is interested, I can try to dig up the volume and number of that particular issue.

Cthulhu

[Cthulhu]

Whoops, need to correct on error:

The system I was speaking of is actually called Shorinjin-ryu Saito Ninjitsu. The article is in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 5, Number 4, 1996.

Cthulhu

[Jay Bell]

Cthulhu,

Saito ryu NinjItsu. Do wonders never cease..

The sword you are speaking of doesn't come from Saito ryu. Nor is Saito ryu a legitimate school of Japanese martial arts in any way, shape or form.

The sword that Saito ryu calls "The Tengu Sword" *chuckle* is from the Togakure ryu. This is what in history was referred to as a shinobi-to. It's blade is 21 inches (very short for a katana), yet the tsuka and typical size (13-15 inches). This gave the opponent the idea that a full length katana was being used.

In situations where batto was used, the opponent could reach over to draw their sword. The shinobi-to, being so short, simply involved a flip of the wrist to draw and set the blade against an opponent's drawing arm. As the opponent drew their blade, they would cut themselves from the motion.

:soapbox:

(suggestion: have a smiley that is a dog barking :D)

PS - No sword of traditional Ninpo was ever straight

[higuma]

Hey guys,

Jay you are correct but I think you and cthulu are discussing different things. The "tengu sword" is not Shannon Phelps name for the ninjato. It is an entirely different animal, likely a product of Phelps' overactive imagination. This came up recently on another board and a friend of mine (who is also in San Diego) answered some questions about the weapon in question. I am attaching his comments on the subject below.


They have a special ninja sword - about 3 feet of handle and about 12 inches of knife. It is a spinning hanbo of death... or something like that. They spin, whirl and twrill it. Very secret stuff... I never got in on the goods. For those in tropical areas... it looks **EXACTLY** like a pineapple knife... only it has to be different because it is the Tengu Sword. You can see it in the logo on his front page. The handle is longer (but that is the secret part of it - I think). Or maybe the secret is just how fast you can draw that thing...

And I would like to clarify (for the non-ninpo types on the board) that while I cannot vouch for the effectiveness or non-effectiveness of what Mr. Phelps is teaching, I can say... it is not ... I say again... NOT ninpo, ninjutsu, etc.

ps. Jay did you really call me a bully over at kutaki...? :p :D

[Cthulhu]

Well, I'm not speaking for the validity of the system, just tossing it out their for others to see. The fact that they spell in 'ninjitsu' rather than the correct 'ninjutsu' instantly separates it form the bujutsu.

Jay, Higuma is correct about the 'tengu' sword. It is not the ninja-to, but another bladed weapon entirely, where the blade is less than half the length of the handle. I believe Higuma's description was better than the one I offered.

Again, I'm not saying anything about the validity of the system. This is a board for sharing information, so I chose to toss this up on the forum because many probably have never even heard of the system before.

:cheers:

Cthulhu

[Jay Bell]

Higuma,

haha...the whole lot of ye! :D

[higuma]

Hey guys,

Here is the link to a pic of Phelps' arsenal... including the "tengu sword".

http://www.fullautumnmoon.com/background/swords.jpg

Again, based on this photo alone, I have to say that what ever this guy is studying/teaching is not ninjutsu :nuke: . Sorry, cthulu, but I have this need to call a spade a spade... Just ask Jay. :shrug:

[Jay Bell]

Yeah...what he said.

:D

[Cthulhu]

Sigh. Again, I'm not making any claims as to what this Phelps is teaching. I believe I did mention that they make their own distinction from ninjutsu by intentionally spelling it ninjItsu.

In the Journal of Asian Martial Arts article, practically nothing Phelps demonstrated is similar to 'classical' ninjutsu. Again, I'm just tossing this up on the forum to share with others. I'm not claiming that this is 'authentic' ninjutsu.

Cthulhu

[Jay Bell]

Cthulhu,

Understood...we aren't hammering a flush nail here. He was just agreeing with what I had said about them not being traditional.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
I believe I did mention that they make their own distinction from ninjutsu by intentionally spelling it ninjItsu.

How widely accepted is the notion that it should be -jutsu not -jitsu? I use the two variants more-or-less interchangeably. Is there an accepted standard for transliteration that insists on -jutsu rather than -jitsu?

[Cthulhu]

I don't know of any 'official' standard, but it is generally accepted that the correct romanization is '-jutsu'. The pronounciation of the Japanese word is definitely a 'u' sound rather than an 'i'. However, BJJ systems usually use the '-jitsu' spelling, possibly to further distinguish themselves from Japanese jujutsu.

Also, every published work written by a qualified, and often degree holding, author has used the '-jutsu' spelling. This is also true of translated works and works written by people fluent in English and Japanese. The '-jitsu' probably originated as a corruption of the more correct spelling. I can see how some people may find it easier to use an 'i' sound rather than the 'u' sound.

Cthulhu

[higuma]

Roughly translated... jutsu = art or skill jitsu = truth

There are standards but they are not necessarily difinitive. The Japanese language is a bit undefined where romanization is concerned. The two kanji (jutsu and jitsu) are definitely not the same.

[Cthulhu]

I haven't seen the kanji for the Saito-ryu ninjitsu, so I don't know if they intended to use the 'truth' character.

As for BJJ, I don't think I've ever seen that rendered in kanji.

Cthulhu

[Jay Bell]

Yeah..that's pretty much it. 'jitsu' means "Truth"...which I shouldn't probably say, because every neo-ninja on the planet is going to say that their art means "Truth of Perserverance" :D

Example - Kyo jitsu - interchanging truth and falsehood

That said, jutsu means 'methods' or 'art of'.

I remember reading at one point about Don Angier sensei and his videos on 'Hojojitsu' and 'Kenjitsu'. Something along the lines of it being the original romanization. I wish I had more information on that and could remember half-assed what was said...but I thought it was pretty interesting.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
I remember reading at one point about Don Angier sensei and his videos on 'Hojojitsu' and 'Kenjitsu'. Something along the lines of it being the original romanization.

I suspect that there is something to that. Look at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0874070279/qid=1006710314/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/104-0730448-6126362
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0897501225/ref=pd_sr_ec_ir_b/104-0730448-6126362
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0804830274/ref=pd_sim_books/104-0730448-6126362

The last is certainly by someone who appears to know Japanese and English. I suspect that -jitsu was one of the earliest transliterations, perhaps along with -jutsu.

It's not clear to me that it's standardized yet; Amazon shows 19 hits for a search on jujitsu in Books and 8 hits for a search on jujutsu. There are also numerous hits for jiu-jitsu which I also think of as an older transliteration. No hits for bujitsu but 4 hits for bujutsu. Ninjitsu, 1 hit; ninjutsu, 48 hits.

It looks like -jutsu is the preferred style everywhere except possibly in jujitsu/jujutsu. It isn't just the Brazialian forms-- the -jitsu style seems popular in jujitsu.

[Cthulhu]

Maybe it all comes down to simple personal preference then :) Unless the system is purposely trying to differentiate between the 'truth' or 'art' meaning, then I guess we can use whatever the heck we want :D

Cthulhu

[gozanryu]

Hey Guys, just to try to clarify. The sword in question is NOT a Shinobi To. Firstly, it is not pointed (no kissaki) the tip is rounded. Why? Because it is double edged, from Hibaki all around edge of blade. Thus, it can cut in both directions. Thus, it is not a Nagimaki either

[Tatsukin]

Aloha,

You seem to know quite a bit about the Tengu sword. Have you studied Saito Ninjitsu?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by higuma
Roughly translated... jutsu = art or skill jitsu = truth

There are standards but they are not necessarily difinitive. The Japanese language is a bit undefined where romanization is concerned. The two kanji (jutsu and jitsu) are definitely not the same.


Just to add to that:

Jitsu= actually, honestly, day (as in “honjitsu” meaning "this day”)

Perhaps since Phelps “claims” to be fluent in Japanese he can shed some light on to the “Saito” meaning of the word since my Jap/Eng dictionary doesn’t give any martial meanings for it.

[gozanryu]

Tatsukin, yes, I am a Student of Senseii Phelps. I have a Black Belt in the art. Been with him since 95', will stay till he throws me out.

Matt, martial meaning for Saito? Its the Family name.

PS- Hey Chris!

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by gozanryu

Matt, martial meaning for Saito? Its the Family name.
!

That was painfully obvious.

The question was what is the martial meaning of "NinjItsu"...........

[gozanryu]

Ahhh! So, I'm an idiot. There is a discussion of that very subject on the web site (TFAM.com)

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by arnisador
How widely accepted is the notion that it should be -jutsu not -jitsu? I use the two variants more-or-less interchangeably. Is there an accepted standard for transliteration that insists on -jutsu rather than -jitsu?

See, here's the thing that I think most folks understand, but even more folks seem to forget -

Japanese doesn't use English letters.

Japanese uses Kanji (Chinese characters, some in original form, some modified over time), Hiragana (for native Japanese words and phonetic descriptions of obscure kanji) and Katakana (used for "borrow words" and foreign names).

Romaji (a "borrow word" taken from "romanization") is the method by which Japanese phonetics are taken from their Kana form and placed into English letters. There are certain specific rules on the sounds each letter represents (e.g. "a" is "ah," "e" is "ay," "i" is "ee," "o" is "oh," and "u" is "oo"), and this dictates what consonant/vowel combination is used to represent the same Kana character...

The kanji for the word represented by some as "jutsu" and by others as "jitsu" is correctly pronounced by the Romaji "jutsu," since the pronunciation is more akin to "joo-tsoo" than the "jee-tsoo" implied by the "jItsu" spelling...

"Well," you may ask, "why are they used seemingly interchangeably by English speakers?"

Because English speaking people, most notably the Americans, are painfully and condescendingly mono-lingual, and often seem to think they can do whatever they like with foreign languages as long as it suits their needs.

Admittedly, earlier in the century, there was no established standard of Romanization for Chinese, Japanese, and other asian languages whose written language is nowhere even close to English. That led to Chinese being represented by the Wade-Giles method of Romanization that probably caused more harm than good... Pinyin is now the "authorized" and official method of Romanizing Chinese, and Romaji is the "authorized" and official method of Romanizing Japanese.

One further note on Romaji - because Japanese has some words with longer tonal stress on certain syllables, the intonation of which changes the word entirely, it is either represented with a dash above the vowel so elongated, or doubling the vowel (e.g. uncle is "ojii," or "oji" with a dash above the "i").

Note to Gozanryu - it is "sensei" with only one "i." Not sure what it means with an elongated "i" at the end, but I know it isn't the word for teacher...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by gozanryu
Ahhh! So, I'm an idiot. There is a discussion of that very subject on the web site (TFAM.com)


Nobody called you an "idiot" so stop crying "foul".

You may want to read posts a little better in the future though.

[arnisador]

I would argue that 'jujitsu' has been adopted as an American term. It's as incorrect as any other word in this mongrel language! To buttress my claim, I note that it's the preferred spelling in 2 of 3 dictionaries at dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jujitsu) and that a search for it at the BBC news web site (http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?scope=newsifs&tab=news&q=jujitsu) turns up four hits but a search for 'jujutsu' turns up none. Although it isn't the case right now, I've seen them use it as a metaphor--'verbal jujitsu' or 'strategic jujitsu' or some such thing that doesn't actually refer to the martial arts.

I'd say that it's a mistake that has stuck. You might as well argue that restaurant should be pronounced with a silent 't' because it's French, or that shop should be spelled shoppe. As a martial artist I try to use jujutsu unless I believe the art in question prefers jujitsu and I would encourage others to do the same but as an English word, jujitsu is accepted and, I emphasize, preferred. It's no longer a translation issue, any more than 'restaurant' and the like.

I see that jitsu is from from Middle Chinese zhwit, it says.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador
I would argue that 'jujitsu' has been adopted as an American term.


Maybe, but you would think a school with lineage dating back 1,000 years to the "mother land" would know how to use the word properly..........."NinjItsu" is not a Japanese word.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Maybe, but you would think a school with lineage dating back 1,000 years to the "mother land" would know how to use the word properly..........."NinjItsu" is not a Japanese word.

No argument--someone translating a name now should presumably use -jutsu, and a particular art that's emphasizing its Japanese heritage probably should too. I'm only arguing that the particular term jujitsu is accepted as an American English term for a sport popular in the States, though it originated elsewhere, and as a term for using one's opponent's strengths against them in other settings ('verbal jujitsu' etc.).

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador
I'm only arguing that the particular term jujitsu is accepted as an American English term for a sport popular in the States,


I agree.........but it is only used in such a manner in the West.
Japanese would never pronounce the word that way.........which is why I find it odd that the "Saito Clan" would insist it was jItsu and not jutsu.

[Matt Stone]

Arnisador -

Your point is well taken, and well explained. And while I would be hard pressed to disagree with the logic of your argument, I maintain that whether we have absorbed it into our mainstream language or not, as martial artists we speak with our own specialized language that draws from a multitude of foreign language sources... Medicine and Law make use of many Latin terms, but they are pronounced properly (most of the time), and when pronounced incorrectly, their incorrect use is typically... corrected!

Since I view MAists and the MA community in general as our own specialized "trade," I feel we have more of a responsibility to use the terms in their proper context, especially when we are claiming attachment to lineages from other countries who speak the language the terms are from... If someone created their own American NinjItsu, then fine - spell it how you like, even if it is wrong. The caveat of tagging "American" on the front kind of lets everyone know the terms will be used improperly. Whatever.

But if someone is trying to hook onto some form of legitimacy through connection to an art whose genesis and development stem from another country that speaks the language in question, then the language should be used properly or not at all...

Gambarimasu (spelled properly, I might add... :D )
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by arnisador
No argument--someone translating a name now should presumably use -jutsu, and a particular art that's emphasizing its Japanese heritage probably should too. I'm only arguing that the particular term jujitsu is accepted as an American English term for a sport popular in the States, though it originated elsewhere, and as a term for using one's opponent's strengths against them in other settings ('verbal jujitsu' etc.).

From what I understand, the entire "i" vs. "u" debate stems from the adoption of the Japanese words post-WWII when the first Uh-Muh-Rih-Kans brought the terms back to the US...

They didn't know how to speak the language, certainly didn't know how to transliterate the language, and obviously didn't care either way...

It is pretty deeply rooted, and that upsets me even more... :angry:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[arnisador]

I would definitely agree with Yiliquan1 that as martial artists we should strive for greater fidelity to the correct method and I do try to do so, except where it seems to me that a given art/org. prefers the other way (e.g. BJJ).

[gozanryu]

I am not crying "foul" I did not re-read the post correctly. That is why I refferred to MYSELF as an idiot. I am not that thin skinned. Sorry for the confusion.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by arnisador
I would definitely agree with Yiliquan1 that as martial artists we should strive for greater fidelity to the correct method and I do try to do so, except where it seems to me that a given art/org. prefers the other way (e.g. BJJ).

I would agree that if an art has a particular method of spelling their art's transliteration, then it can be honored, as long as they know why they spell it the way they do and it isn't out of blatant ignorance of the proper form...

On the Yiliquan association patches, we still have "Yiliquan" spelled "Yi Li Chuan," which was the way we spelled it under the old Wade-Giles method until we "knew better" and started instituting the Pinyin method... We know that "Yiliquan" is the proper transliteration, and we use that most of the time. In "internal communications" in the association, we allow either form to be used since we are all familiar with what is being discussed. Publicly, though, I know that at least I strive to adhere to Pinyin since I feel it is more efficient, more representative of the correct sounds, and more widely understood.

I guess all I want is for folks to know the difference and not to do things out of ignorance. If they make educated decisions, and still go against the grain, so be it. At least they would have a reason for doing so...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[gozanryu]

Here is our Sensei's (thanks for the spelling correction) response (partial) to the Jitsu-Jutsu issue as it applies to us. This is exerpted from the website. " Any spelling of any Japanese or Chinese word is but a best guess attempt on the part of linguists to pronounce Kanji through romanization. The Japanese themselves have accepted "Jitsu" for years without complaint. In fact, even they can barely tell the difference as it is spoken. Yet, there are distinctions, of course, and modern writers have directed our attention to these.

For the record, Saito himself uses the old spelling "Ninjitsu", feels no need to change it, and therefore, in respect to him, I wouldn't think of it. There is also the word "Jitsu" that in Japanese means "reality" or "actuality". Saito says that Ninjitsu is "the art of understanding human behavior". So "Nin", which can mean man and "Jitsu" meaning actuality, can mean "man in his actuality or reality" - (human behavior). We like that, so often times we will use this combination of Kanji to tell our story better. In any case, how we use our romanization is our business and we feel no need to accommodate you"

So, a pronunciation thing indeed.

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by gozanryu
For the record, Saito himself uses the old spelling "Ninjitsu", feels no need to change it, and therefore, in respect to him, I wouldn't think of it. There is also the word "Jitsu" that in Japanese means "reality" or "actuality". Saito says that Ninjitsu is "the art of understanding human behavior". So "Nin", which can mean man and "Jitsu" meaning actuality, can mean "man in his actuality or reality" - (human behavior). We like that, so often times we will use this combination of Kanji to tell our story better. In any case, how we use our romanization is our business and we feel no need to accommodate you"

Taken from the web site,


It is fascinating to keep in mind that Saito is, as I said, first-generation American-born in the Hawaiian Islands. He has never lived in Japan and was raised by the Hawaiian side of his family rather than by the Japanese. Therefore, he had little contact with his Japanese heritage other than through his "grandpa," whom he knew to be the grand master of the family art (Grandpa emigrated to Hawaii circa 1903). Grandpa taught "Mark San" in secret--even the rest of the family was unaware. Mr. Saito did no learn to read ore speak Japanese as a child, so we cannot be sure of the original kanji for "ninjitsu" used by the Saito clan.

Just for the record. There has been no evidence presented to the public that The art that is taught as Saito-ryu ninjitsu ever existed before mark Saito sr suddenly announced that he was a ninja master. Before that, he was teaching other arts and not claiming to be involved with ninjitsu. There are no references that I can find in Japanese sources, and the Saito ryu folks can not seem to point me to any. I have seen nothing outside of what basically comes down to Mark Saito's word that he recieved the training he claims. Phelps came on Martialtalk to chastise people about talking to him, but when asked direct questions he seems to have stopped posting for himself and retreated behind a firewall of students. Both Wayne Muromoto and Karl Friday have seen practicioners of the art and stated their opinion that the art is not Japanese in origin, but rather created by Mark Saito sr.

If the people from the Saito ryu can provide independently verifiable proof that the art existed prior to Mark Saito sr's public announcement that he was a ninja master, and that the art really did exist in Japan, I would be very pleasently surprised. But don't hold your breath. Already they have made hundreds of posts about the subject of ninjutsu but failed to back up what they say any amount of proof that their art predates the disco fad.

[gozanryu]

Don, I will say 1st that , as usual, I see your point. Now I will say this. It is interesting to see your choice of words. Our Sensei is retreating behind a firewall of students? Hmm, it seems to me the Hatsumi has often been attacked on boards as far as legitamacy etc. He has never posted. Does that mean that he has "retreated" or that he is a "coward". I will ask you on this board the same thing I have asked you on others. You should have an answer now. WHen you went and talked to your boss, Hatsumi about Phelps, Saito et al, what did he have to say? After all this time, your still on the Ninja angle. There is no Takamatsuden claim. I do not think that Phelps has incurred any Giri to you to be "Verified" at all. I think we do what we do, and you do what you do. However, unlike you, we welcome you to our house anytime. We enjoy what we do. We do not labor over a keyboard trying to discredit everyone we meet. ANY of you are ALWAYS welcome at our house. And before you start typing some eloquent re-buttal, stop. Its OK, we know your position. If your ever in town, stop by and visit. Quit being so darn disrespectful. The world does not revolve around Takamatsuden tradition. Its Martial Arts Man! Relax. We are not out to steal your thunder.

[heretic888]

I recall reading an article written by a Saito-ryu teacher of some capacity quite some time ago (I have no personal experience with the art or any of its practitioners myself). The person claimed that the 'Ninjitsu' taught in the Saito-ryu has nothing to do with the ninja clans of Iga and Koga in ancient Japan (and thus is not 'ninjutsu' or 'ninjitsu' as most people associate the word with). The writer apparently was trying to make this claim of moral superiority of the Saito-ryu over those 'evil ninja'. This individual then went on to imply the Takamatsu-den (specifically, the Bujinkan) methods to be 'assassination' arts. I found that most amusing.

I think it's a little odd, though.... if what has been said is true, then the 'Ninjitsu' of the Saito-ryu uses different kanji for both 'nin' and 'jutsu' than is commonly associated with the words. So...... why associate it with the ninjutsu ryuha at all???

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by gozanryu
Now I will say this. It is interesting to see your choice of words. Our Sensei is retreating behind a firewall of students? Hmm, it seems to me the Hatsumi has often been attacked on boards as far as legitamacy etc. He has never posted. Does that mean that he has "retreated" or that he is a "coward".

That seems a rather cheap shot considering that we all know that A, hatsumi does not speak or read English, B, he does not even own a computer and C, he has not registered at Martialarttalk.com. Phelps did and posted once. Now he does not seem to be able to answer questions directed at him. So yes, it looks extremely suspicious, and your comment about Hatsumi is also fairly off the mark.



Originally posted by gozanryu
I will ask you on this board the same thing I have asked you on others. You should have an answer now. WHen you went and talked to your boss, Hatsumi about Phelps, Saito et al, what did he have to say?

Basically, "who?" I did not ask the question myself.




Originally posted by gozanryu
After all this time, your still on the Ninja angle. There is no Takamatsuden claim.

So, why is this is the ninjutsu folder if you are somehow outside the area of ninjutsu? Just because you do not claim to come from the Takamatsu-den does not mean that you have a free ride. I would be pointing out the same things if you were claiming Koga ryu, etc.



Originally posted by gozanryu
I do not think that Phelps has incurred any Giri to you to be "Verified" at all. I think we do what we do, and you do what you do.

And I have no "giri" to accept what you say at face value, or be silent about the fact that you have no proof to back up your claims of Japanese origin and that many things what you say contrast with what it known about the subject.


Originally posted by gozanryu
However, unlike you, we welcome you to our house anytime. We enjoy what we do. We do not labor over a keyboard trying to discredit everyone we meet.

That sounds like a rather nasty comment. I have helped raise questions about the claims of many people, but you make me sound like some sort of obsesive, rather than a person who raises legitimate questions when faced with questionable claims. It is like you want to discredit me and attack me for pointing these things out. If you do not like it, please point to one peice of proof that I can check for myself. Until then, I will chime in when the subject comes up. I have no obligation to stay slinet when questions are asked.



Originally posted by gozanryu
ANY of you are ALWAYS welcome at our house. And before you start typing some eloquent re-buttal, stop. Its OK, we know your position.

This would be an excellent time for you to take your own advice. If you can provide proof to your claims, that would be wonderfull. However, comments like how we "labor over a keyboard trying to discredit everyone we meet." are just crass and not where I want this conversation to go.

[Bujingodai]

Who cares? Practice what makes you happy.

I would also imagine if you asked Hatsumi about any of the mentioned groups, he would likely not know, nor do I doubt he would even care.

Does he really not own a computer!?!

[Jay Bell]

*grin* He does not own a computer.

[arnisador]

Since 1996, I find 51 hits on jujitsu and none on jujutsu at the NY Times.

Similarly, searching the LA Times (www.latimes.com) since 1985 gives 134 hits like this one:


COMMENTARY
U.S. Strengths Are Terrorist Opportunities
By BENJAMIN R. BARBER,
Benjamin R. Barber is the author of "Jihad vs. McWorld."


NEW YORK -- The tragic irony of Tuesday's day of terror is that America was humbled by its strengths, not its weaknesses. Adept practitioners of strategic jujitsu, the terrorists leveraged America's technological wizardry and democratic openness to the purposes of destruction

but none for jujutsu.

(OK, I'll stop now.)

[Matt Stone]

Again, the issue of incorrect foreign language use rears its ugly head.

We appear to need to be reminded yet again that languages whose words are represented by pictographs cannot be adequately represented in non-pictogrpahic languages unless the phonetic of those pictographs is somehow transliterated into that other language.

Methods of transliteration must make use of the graphic representation of that language's specific sounds and tones to adequately transliterate the foreign language phonetics into an understandable format.

I have previously posted the vowel sounds used in Japanese, and the English letters used to represent those sounds. The correct and accepted method of using English letters with Japanese sounds is called Romaji, and it has certain rules for its proper use.

The word "nin" has a certain character (kanji) used to convey the meaning inherent in that word. The word "jutsu" has a certain character (kanji) used to convey the meaning inherent in that word. Further, the word "jitsu" has still yet another character (kanji) to convey its meaning, and so on.

So my question is, simply, which kanji are being used to write the word "ninjItsu?"

I went here (http://www.zhongwen.com) to do some research on the kanji in the transliterated words in question. The first kanji does not, in its Chinese meanings (or in the Japanese meanings from what I know), mean "man" as stated upthread. The character represents a blade in the heart and carries the meaning of endurance. The second kanji for that of "jutsu," represents proceeding down a road and carries the meaning of a path or method for doing something. The disputed kanji of "jitsu" is unknown to me in appearance or Chinese pronunciation, so I am unable at this time to research its specific implications. It strikes me, however, that given the predilection for 90% of people who claim to use Chinese or Japanese terms for their own meanings to get their meanings completely wrong, that the translation being cited as an alternate translation (i.e. "the art of understanding human behavior" as opposed to "the art of 'endurance'" of the Japanese ninja) is also fully erroneous and based on a lame defense for the use of incorrect transliteration...

It'd be so much easier to just identify what kanji are being used, and then use the correct transliteration rather than adhering to such a weak argument to support the misuse and misspelling in question.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador
Since 1996, I find 51 hits on jujitsu and none on jujutsu at the NY Times.

Similarly, searching the LA Times (www.latimes.com) since 1985 gives 134 hits like this one:


but none for jujutsu.

(OK, I'll stop now.)


I guess both the LA Times and NY Times give the definitive pronunciation/Romanization for Japanese words………….now I can get rid off all my expensive Eng/Jap Dictionaries.

[gozanryu]

Don, at the risk of circularity. You make me LMAO! You, of all people, worried about nasty and off the mark comments! Ha! Have you somehow forgotten all the posts you have made that are "nasty". Would you like me to start cutting and pasting so that you can be reminded. You are so INCREDIBLY arrogant. Wow. "That seems a rather cheap shot considering that we all know that A, hatsumi does not speak or read English, B, he does not even own a computer and C, he has not registered at Martialarttalk.com. Phelps did and posted once. Now he does not seem to be able to answer questions directed at him. So yes, it looks extremely suspicious, and your comment about Hatsumi is also fairly off the mark"

How does this seem like a cheap shot? Because its YOUR Sensei. We ALL know how Hatsumis' credentials, lineage, and authenticity have been attacked, re-attacked, and scrutinized. We also ALL know that MANY in Japan laugh at him and view him has a fraud. That MANY think his claims are false, etc. etc. Why is he not on these boards defending himself? I know, because he doesnt have a computer. Hmm. Maybe its because he doesnt give a rat's @$$ what anybody thinks. Does that make him a coward? Does that mean he has retreated behind the skirts of his students? I dont think so.


"Basically, "who?" I did not ask the question myself"

my point. exactly Don. You are in Japan. You hold the highest ranking the Japanese Government gives in the language. (we know this because you often let us know) Why have you not, after all this, talked to the Boss? Hmmm, maybe your credibility is now in question. Maybe you are the one "retreating"





However, comments like how we "labor over a keyboard trying to discredit everyone we meet." are just crass and not where I want this conversation to go."




OK Don, lets compare and contrast.

"AFAIK, none of his other claims seem to pan out. CIA can not confirm his story because it is "too secret" according to them. (Well, if it was secret, why are they talking aboutit?) No one I trust has yet to say they can confirm the stories about Vietnam, Special Forces, CIA case officer, etc.

But what gets me about the pictures is that huge gong they have. Is that really a part of Asian MA practice? Maybe it is a Chinese thing. In some dojos in Japan I have seen Taiko drums, but I can't think of seeing a gong in a dojo. Is it maybe Okinawan, like the sais, nunchakus and such he uses?

I just get this weird thought in my head (I am probably dating myself) of some poor guy trying to show off his kata for the class, only to have to leave the stage after Jamie Farr gongs him."


Crass, did you say. Lets go back in the thread and see where we (Saitos) were brought into it.....



"Go to this site and click on the "photos" section. Go towards the bottom. Is this pretty much the type of behavior you are talking about? I live in Japan and have yet to see this type of behavior or so much Japanese Kitsch in a dojo as this!!!

BTW, this guy claims to teach a Japanese art that no one in Japan has heard of, uses Japanese terms that make native speakers giggle, claims to recive instruction from his teacher via dreams, etc, etc. "

Wow, isnt that intresting. YOU brought it up so that you could talk about it some more.

Crass huh.

Don, you are truly ridiculous sometimes. The disrespect you show people is truly incredible. I will say it again. You talk smack about people you really dont know any thing about and expect their respect for your opinion. In my opinion, I dont think you have learned anything about the TRUE ART in your entire MA career. Things like HUMILITY, RESPECT, KINDNESS, FIELTY. You PURPOSELY try to get a flame war going on this subject, then when you get one, EVERY BODY ELSE is "CRASS" You should take some advice from my departed Grandfather: " If you wake up and realize that everybody is an @$$ but you, you should look in a mirror"



__________________

[Phil Elmore]

Mr. Roley is neither arrogant nor "ridiculous," nor does the manner in which he conducts himself prompt any reasonable, rational observer to conclude such things.

You, on the other hand, are doing a very good job of painting yourself into a corner.

[Matt Stone]

I know it can be really hard not to sometimes, but can we try to avoid the personal battles and stick to the issues at hand?

Some of the issues brought up by both parties are points worth pondering. Some of the comments made by both parties will get one or more members booted, or get yet another thread shut down...

I'm still waiting to hear answers to questions posed. I wait with an open mind (the opinion of others notwithstanding regarding the openness of my attitude) to see arguments supporting Saito-ryu as a legitimate ryu, or even to simply address the misuse of language (as addressed upthread).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[gozanryu]

Phil, I would completely agree with your statement if it had begun with "In my opinion" however, I do not think you have the "facts" on this subject nor are you the absolute authority whereas everyone else is "mistaken" I dont feel as if Im in a corner, I feel more like I have a differing opinion than Don. But, thank you for your opinion. I also checked around. Some people actually consider me "reasonable" and "rational"

Matt, your right.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by gozanryu
Matt, your right.

Yeah, I know... :D

It ain't easy being me, being so right all the time, perfect in all that I do, extremely knowledgeable about things common and uncommon, not to mention darn good lookin' to boot, but somebody has to carry this burden! :lol:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I guess both the LA Times and NY Times give the definitive pronunciation/Romanization for Japanese words

No, I don't think that's it at all--I think in this one (possibly exceptional) case, an incorrect transliteration has been accepted as a correct English word. That is, jujutsu is the correct transliteration of the corresponding japanese term, but the phrase 'strategic jujitsu' is perfectly acceptable English because it uses the Englis term 'jujitsu' (adapted from a foreign term) and is not an attempt to transliterate a Japanese term into English.

If it's included in an English dictionary, it's English! It's no longer a transliteration. You might as well complain about calling the whole country Japan rather than some transliteration of Nippon.

[arnisador]

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador
No, I don't think that's it at all--I think in this one (possibly exceptional) case, an incorrect transliteration has been accepted as a correct English word. That is, jujutsu is the correct transliteration of the corresponding japanese term, but the phrase 'strategic jujitsu' is perfectly acceptable English because it uses the Englis term 'jujitsu' (adapted from a foreign term) and is not an attempt to transliterate a Japanese term into English.

If it's included in an English dictionary, it's English! It's no longer a transliteration. You might as well complain about calling the whole country Japan rather than some transliteration of Nippon.

I was being sarcastic in my post.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that an alleged Japanese MA with an alleged history of 1,000 years and a supposed direct descendant teaching the art calls it NinjItsu.

Red Flags come up..........

[Don Roley]

Ok, let us keep this respectfull towards other participents. I have not insulted anyone in this conversation, only made jokes like how I felt the gong in a dojo seemed more at home in the old "gong show" than anything I have seen in Japan. And I do feel that way...

And this conversation is not about Hatsumi or his claims. I get kind of tired of someone who is being questioned about their story throwing out that subject in the manner of what can be found at Phil's article on Internet Defnese Mechanisms.


POT AND KETTLE

Perhaps the first rule of verbal self-defense, in the absence of legitimate and logically grounded opinion, is to accuse the accuser. Cornered, the VS or VTG will be quick to point out that it is the critic(s) who display(s) the warning signs of martial arts fraudulence.



The fact is, Hatsumi can prove all of his claims of training under Takamatsu and others. If you ask him, he will be pleased to tell you about these things. He was known to be training in an art under Takamatsu long before ninjutsu was popular in Japan.

All of this can not be said of the still- living Mark Saito sr. We do not even know the name of the relative he claims taught him his art, nor do we have any sort of proof. All we can tell is that for years he taught another art before suddenly announcing that he was indeed a ninja master trained from childhood. This should set off red flags by itself. The fact that no one seems willing to go to him and ask the questions that might lead to proving his claims should set off red flags as well.

Again, I ask for some srot of proof that this art has ever been known in Japan. I also ask for some sort of independently verifiable proof that the person who introduced this art to America really had the training he claims. The opinion of people like Wayne Muromoto and others, as well as the discrepencies with things like language, all point to the conclusion that this art was made up by someone in America and given a false history.

[gozanryu]

Don, Who is Phil? I mean in this situation. Is he an absolute authority on human behavior, a Doctor perhaps? Or are you joking? You are referring to him as such. (no offense Phil, Im just kinda lost here)

I am not questioning Hatsumi, I am using it as an example. I am not accusing anyone of anything. If you really believe that you have been fair and balanced on this, I guess I'll fold. Incredible.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by arnisador
No, I don't think that's it at all--I think in this one (possibly exceptional) case, an incorrect transliteration has been accepted as a correct English word. That is, jujutsu is the correct transliteration of the corresponding japanese term, but the phrase 'strategic jujitsu' is perfectly acceptable English because it uses the Englis term 'jujitsu' (adapted from a foreign term) and is not an attempt to transliterate a Japanese term into English.

If it's included in an English dictionary, it's English! It's no longer a transliteration. You might as well complain about calling the whole country Japan rather than some transliteration of Nippon.

I conceded to your argument. So long as the term is used within its English language context (i.e. not necessarily a martial art title, term nor description, but rather a description of intricate and complex maneuvering), then the spelling of "jujitsu" is fine.

But if the term in question is being used to describe a martial art of Japanese origin, more specifically one claiming ancient origin and ancestry from that country, then the proper spelling ought to be used. Failing to do so will inevitably draw undue and unwanted attention to the art...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[heretic888]

I found this article online: http://www.tfam.com/background/saitoninjitsu.htm

In it, the author states:

"Due to none too careful transliteration, the art of the Ninja was originally written with the Americanized 'jitsu' rather than the more correct 'jutsu.' Mark Saito, Sr. had always used the term 'jitsu' and made no effort to change it to 'jutsu.' In fact, he remained adamant that his art was not the art of Ninjutsu: 'This is the art of Shorinjin-ryu Saito Ninjitsu--we are not Ninja! This art was granted to the Saito family by the Shorinjin and is highly revered; not for assassins.'"

And:

"But Mr. Saito never claims a relationship with the Iga or Koga clans. He is adamant that his is the 'magical art' and is the unique gift of the Shorinjin."

Apparently, the Saito-ryu actually holds 'ninjutsu' and their 'ninjitsu' to be two different arts.

This doesn't necessarily mean the Saito-ryu is historically authentic, but they do apparently differentiate themselves from the ninja ryuha.

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by heretic888
we are not Ninja! This art was granted to the Saito family by the Shorinjin and is highly revered; not for assassins.'"

I always KNEW I was just a low down assassin. Nothing more.


Originally posted by heretic888
He is adamant that his is the 'magical art' and is the unique gift of the Shorinjin.

What exactly is a "Magical" art? Is that Like Yellow Bamboo? Or David Copperfield-Ryu? Turning lead to gold? Or by magical does he mean like the way a child veiws the world type magical?

Also, my question goes back to this... because it should very easily be able to answer the questions of how authentic these claims are... IS/WAS there a type of Ninjutsu/Jitsu in japan prior to the "creation" of this in Hawaii that was NOT related to the Ninja? If so, and its not from the Iga/Koga region, What region were the Saito-ryu from, and can historical records of the dojo's be found? Even many of the "offshoots" of the traditional NinJUTSU from Iga and Koga which were nothing but secret ASSASSIN CULTS have written records in Japan, does the Saito-ryu? If the answers to both of those questions are YES, then I would have to say we can accept the claims made by the Saito-ryu, If not I would assume that at best we HAVE to be as skeptical as we would be If I came out today and Said "I am really the secret student of Bruce Lee, and he taught me in his attic and never told anyone becuse people were trying to kill off his art!" COULD it be possible? Sure! Is it likely to be true? Very doubtful.

[heretic888]

I always KNEW I was just a low down assassin. Nothing more.

Seriously. Just watch me flip out and kill someone with my ninja sword. Without even thinking about it. Ninjer-style, you know? :rolleyes:


What exactly is a "Magical" art? Is that Like Yellow Bamboo? Or David Copperfield-Ryu? Turning lead to gold? Or by magical does he mean like the way a child veiws the world type magical?

They believe their art comes from Tengu, and is 'divine' or something like that.

Laterz.

[Tatsukin]

Below is a brief history of our school. I know you have questions. I will do my best to answer them. What would you like to know?
Realize that I did not, like a salmon, run up the stream of this thread to extract all of your concerns. I simple offer myself as a source of information for you; if that is what you wish.

The Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu Academy was founded on April 4, 1966 in Redwood City, California. The Dojo was opened by Mark Saito, Sr. after receiving permission to teach outside of the family. The name of the school came from his grandfather, Hanshichi Saito.

HANSHICHI SAITO was born in Fukushimaken, Japan in 1886. He migrated to Hawaii in May 1907. He was the first in his family to leave Japan to live in Hawaii. He brought with him his wife and oldest son on this initial voyage. He returned to Japan in 1919 to get his daughter, Umeko “Mary” Saito, and bring her back to Hawaii that same year. He divorced his wife at the time and found another woman to marry; with her he then had another son named Tsurumatsu Saito. Hanshichi died in Aiea, Hawaii in January 1966.

UMEKO “MARY” SAITO was born in Fukushimaken in May 1907. She migrated to Hawaii in 1919 at the age of 12. While in Japan she learned from her family the Saito Ninjitsu art. Her first son was born on September 5, 1928: Mark Kahalepaiwi Vera Cruz Saito, Sr. On her son’s 4th birthday she took him to her father, Hanshichi Saito, to study and learn the family art. Umeko “Mary” Saito died in Palo Alto, California in 1986.

Aloha,

Chris

[Don Roley]

Very nice Chris,

But where is the proof that Mark Saito sr learned the art he claims he did from his family? I am talking about independently, verifiable proof. It would seem that all you posted should be predicated with the words, "according to what Mark Saito sr says."

Asstated, there is nothing in any Japanese source that I can find to back up wha tyou say. Can you point me in the direction of such a source? I am sure you were not witness to almost anything you wrote, can you give us some sources that we can check for ourselves?

After all the problems with the story so far, it just seems wise to check for ourselves. You say that Saito's grandfatehr gave him permission in 1966 to teach the art, and he died that same year. Can you give physically verifiable proof that the events happend as you say they did?

Again, there are problems with the Japanese used, the consistency of the story, the history is bizarre and people like Wayne Muromoto have said they believe the art was made up by Saito. based on all that, we would like to see some proof for oursleves.

[Tatsukin]

Well, Don, I am not quite sure how to answer some of your questions. It seems to me that you would like to read about “the incredible Saito ninjas of Fukushima” somewhere. I will tell you; so would I. I don’t struggle with our history like you do though. I would love to go to Japan and find the village where it all started and see if there are any folks still practicing the art. I am quite sure, however, that it would not be called Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu, for a few reasons.

Imagine if you will, a man named Bob Jones. Bob has a son named Bobby. Bob is a blacksmith, best in the land; dare I say… a master. Now one day when little Bobby is about 4 years old Bob decides it is time his son learned the Family Art. What do you suppose he told his son… “Come here Bobby. It’s time you learned Angelic Style Jones Blacksmithing, our family art. Probably not. I believe it would be a bit more like, “Come here Bobby. It’s time you learned the family art.” Don’t you? And so on like that until one day, one of the Jones’ decided to teach their style of Blacksmithing outside of the family.

It seems to me there are certain things without which you will choose to say our art is not authentic:

1. A dojo in Japan – there isn’t one. The first dojo was opened in 1966 in California.
2. A written record of who taught whom in the Saito clan, going back to the village in Fukushima – there isn’t one. If there were I would know about it, and you and/or Mr. Muromoto would certainly have discovered it by now.
3. Consistency in “the story” – this is oral tradition. Different people hear the story of our history in different ways and within different contexts. They then interprate and tell that history to others, in keeping with there own purposes and agenda. There is a fundamental flaw in oral history – any historian will tell you that. However, there is also a profound beauty in it – any mythologist will tell you that.
4. Wayne Muromoto’s stamp of approval. – I’m sorry; I don’t even know how to respond to this one.

I think before we go too much further we need to get clear as to what it is you are challenging, the authenticity of the martial art we practice/teach or the legend as penned by Shannon Phelps. Let us say, for the sake of argument that “the art was made up by Saito”. So what? How would that change anything?


Aloha,
Chris

[Don Roley]

I just recalled something. Tatsukin, you gave a history of the Saito family and how they taught Mark Saito sr the art. But if you look at the article on their history of the art you find this,


Mark Saito, Sr. was born in Hawaii and taught by his Japanese-born maternal grandfather. Saito's mother used to assure the grandchildren that "the Shorinjin is with your father" (Mark, Sr.) and that there was a shrine to the Shorinjin

Note the word maternal. So it seems unusual that the people who taught Mark Saito sr the art have the name "Saito." People rarely marry people with their last name, and if my maternal grandfather trained me in something, I know that I would not be calling it the Roley family tradition.

I know that oral tradition tends to get garbled in the passing, but this is something that happened to Mark Saito sr and he is still alive to ask questions of.

It is this type of thing, combined with just an absolute lack of proof, that makes me look askance at this art.

[Matt Stone]

Well, family oral tradition aside, and claims to a tengu-taught art notwithstanding, what are the kanji used to write the transliterated "ninjitsu?"

With the primary instructor being allegedly fluent in Japanese and Chinese (the same characters are used in both languages in the exact same style), this should be a simple matter to clear up...

If it isn't "ninjutsu," but is really "ninjitsu," then the final kanji will be different. If they are not different, then what is it if not the art of the ninja? I know the Bujinkan folks have, in recent years, adopted the whole "we are spiritually oriented, in-th-now living actualized humans" schtick as opposed to the secret, black-garbed killers of the early '80s. Good for them. But they still toss a nod toward their Togakure-ryu roots now and again...

Saying that what they study is "ninjutsu," but they are not ninja is like saying they study karate but are not karateka, or that they study an art that is called jujutsu, but doesn't do any grappling...

I wait, but I don't hold my breath...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[heretic888]

I know the Bujinkan folks have, in recent years, adopted the whole "we are spiritually oriented, in-th-now living actualized humans" schtick as opposed to the secret, black-garbed killers of the early '80s.

Yeah, and there was a reason for that. If people associate Ninpo with the black-clad assassins they see on TV or in the movies, then that tends to attract certain kind of people you may not necessarily want to be involved in your art.

I believe Hatsumi-soke also said that many people in the Bujinkan had become 'stuck' with the image of the ninja, and that was one of the reasons for the name change. Also, only four ryuha within the Bujinkan actually teach ninjutsu per se (if by 'ninjutsu' we are referring martial arts ryuha that focus on the so-called arts of 'stealing-in'). Then again, most of the other ryuha are historically 'ninja ryu' (even though they may not strictly be 'ninjutsu'), so.....


Good for them. But they still toss a nod toward their Togakure-ryu roots now and again...

Most of the ryuha within the Bujinkan have 'ninja roots'. Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu, Shinden Fudo-ryu Dakentaijutsu, Kukishinden-ryu Happo Hikenjutsu, and Gyokko-ryu Shitojutsu (which later became Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu and Koto-ryu Koppojutsu) all come from Hakuun-ryu Ninjutsu in varying degrees. Gikan-ryu Koppojutsu and Gyokushin-ryu Ninjutsu come from Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu, as well. Most (if not all) of these ryuha were historically part of the martial collective now called Iga-ryu Ninjutsu (and many of the 'founders' and soke of these schools were Iga-ryu jonin, or students of Iga-ryu jonin).



Saying that what they study is "ninjutsu," but they are not ninja is like saying they study karate but are not karateka, or that they study an art that is called jujutsu, but doesn't do any grappling...

I believe I once heard someone reffered to the Bujinkan students not as ninja but as ninjutsuka. I thought that was pretty good.....
;)

I think the difference is what a 'ninja' is is still open for debate. Is a ninja simply one that studies Ninpo?? Is a ninja a member of some Japanese intelligence network in fuedal Japan, and thus no longer exist?? Or.... is a ninja something else??

I shall quote Hatsumi-soke:

"Ninpo began as training to become a moral people
and to learn to endure in whatever social
condition one is in; to know and accept one's
fate, and to live for human beings and all other
creatures. The person who masters all of these
is a ninja."

'Nuff said.

[gozanryu]

Kanji can be found here, I think http://www.tfam.com/background/index.htm

scroll down, click on "Saito Ninjitsu" and scroll down

[Matt Stone]

The kanji are on the pages listed by Ken above...

The correct Romaji spelling to reflect the Japanese pronunciation is "ninjutsu."

Interesting note... I was visiting with a friend of mine from Japan this past weekend, and we cracked open his electronic pocket dictionary to figure out what the answer to this ongoing question is. Interestingly, the "jutsu" character is often mispronounced by native Japanese speakers (at least in his experience - he is a 26 year old kendo nidan, so he isn't ignorant about martial arts), which may have led to the original misspelling...

Whatever. He and his girlfriend (also a native speaker who works in an English language tutoring school - we met them both when we were living in Japan, and they were visiting Seattle two weekends ago, and Canada last weekend) both agreed that the correct Romaji is "jutsu," not "jitsu."

Argument seems to be resolved regarding what is proper. Now, if Mr. Saito continues to use it in an incorrect spelling, at least he can just say that he continues to use it, though he is aware it is incorrect, because it was "traditionally" handed down to him misspelled...

His argument about the alternate interpretation of the term "ninjitsu," however, is completely in error... Wrong character to interpret in that context.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by heretic888


"Ninpo began as training to become a moral people
and to learn to endure in whatever social
condition one is in; to know and accept one's
fate, and to live for human beings and all other
creatures. The person who masters all of these
is a ninja."


Dang. I have a long way to go.

[Bujingodai]

As for Saito Ryu, I have no real idea of the history but there are 2 practitioners of it on my own forum. They are pretty knowledgable of what they know.
All possible fraud aside, they seem to have a pretty good grip of what it is they do. Which is a damn site more than I see from some of the larger orgs.
Pretty nice guys too.

[gozanryu]

Dave, we ARE NOT nice guys! We are purveyors of a sham! We dont know what were talking about. Are opinions are not valid. Everyone knows more than us about our art. We will be absorbed!:cool:

But thanks....

[Bujingodai]

cheeky!

go to http://unv.aimoo.com

they are there, in the protected forums. You will need to make a test post first for me to change access.

[Tatsukin]

Don, Matt,

I came to the forum carrying an olive branch. Sincerely willing to share my knowledge of the system. If you would like to know what I know, which is quite a bit, you will have to stop taking semantic pot shots at what I share with you; or I will be encouraged to talk with you no longer. I would like to clear something up here. I asked you before, who are you attacking? Shannon Phelps? Mark Saito, Sr.? Saito Ninjitsu? The Japanese for writing in squiggly lines which can be misinterpreted/pronounced by non-native speakers? The non-native speakers for misinterpreting/pronouncing the squiggly lines? Me, for having the gall to speak up without having uncovered the coveted book: History and Tradition of the Saito Ninja of Fukushima? I have zero need to argue/fight with you. If you have questions, I am here. I love this stuff. I find all of it fascinating, and will do my best to answer any sincere question. I will poke my head in every once in a while to see. But an intellectual discussion this in not… yet.

Ball’s in your court kids.

Peace, Love & Aloha,
Chris

[gozanryu]

Chris, If I may go out on a limb here. The argument is that "they" are not attacking at all. "They" are just requesting that the system justify itself. Of course, "they" are not particularly polite about it. If you re-read the posts, and visit other threads on other boards on this subject, you will see some pervasive (if illogical) lines of reasoning. I do not think you can make much headway here.
Here are some reminders:

"The sword that Saito ryu calls "The Tengu Sword" *chuckle* is from the Togakure ryu. "

an expert opinion on something that the speaker knows nothing about. When the truth is stated:

"The sword in question is NOT a Shinobi To. Firstly, it is not pointed (no kissaki) the tip is rounded. Why? Because it is double edged, from Hibaki all around edge of blade. Thus, it can cut in both directions. Thus, it is not a Nagimaki either"

no response, no " Oh, I didnt know that" why?

My point is this: You are wasting your time on this subject. Any facts that come to light or discrepencies in the argument are ignored or glossed over. Its almost like the facts are really whats wanted, whats really wanted is to discredit and prove the art a fake. Re -read the threads here, and over at e-budo. No matter how much posturing that is done, the true "nature" of the argument is apparent.

[heretic888]

Heh. Comedy.

[Ninway J]

Here's a pamphlet that my sensei wrote and printed out for a martial arts exhibition back in 1997 in Hilo, Hawaii. Many copies were handed out publicly at the exhibition. Ishigo Sensei retired from teaching in 1998, so Ninway Ninjitsu Academy is currently closed. Although Shannon K. Phelps and Sam Ishigo did train together under Mark Saito Sr., there are some slight differences between their teachings. Any questions? Feel free to ask.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NINWAY NINJITSU ACADEMY

NINWAY NINJITSU ACADEMY offers a 2,000 year old mystical and magical martial art system encompassing 40 different martial arts. It's knowledge has been handed down through generations. NINJITSU is the art of Man and not the art of the Ninja (Ninjutsu). It is the art of enlightenment and not the art of destruction. It makes the impossible possible. To be a Ninjitsu master, a lifelong student of Man, one must not only be able to dismantle (physically and psychologically) a human, but also be able to reassemble the human both in body, and spirit. Consequently, graduates of Ninjitsu are found in the medical, healing, teaching, computer, engineering, etc. sciences.

SHORINJIN (SHAOLIN)
There are two levels of instruction. The Shorinjin (Shaolin) Level deals with the physical instruction. A student here learns about his physical body, it's capabilities and incapabilities, against another human being. Through the art of Fushido (the mat work), the ground becomes his ally and not his enemy. His training literally begins from the ground up. Through basic stances, he learns to be grounded and draw power from the earth. He learns to roll forward, backward, and side-wards to get out of danger or to protect himself. He also learns how to break his fall should he be thrown or his legs cut out from under him. Through his practice in ancient ritual dances and it's derived training in karate/kung fu kicks and punches, he then learns to use his fists, feet, elbows, knees, arms, legs and fingers in defending himself against any conceivable attack situation. By mastering Kiai-jitsu (spirit shout), he can stop time, freeze, or move people. With the use of Shinkeido (nerve shattering), he can momentarily freeze his opponent allowing him to apply a restraining hold or a disabling technique. Using jiu-jitsu and aiki-jujitsu techniques, he learns to throw his opponents, grapple and restrain them using a finger, a wrist, and arm, a leg, and choke holds. He also masters the countermoves to the above techniques. Through his intense knowledge of the human mechanism, he is able to dislocate parts of the human body. However, by the same token, he learns to relocate any dislocated parts. By mastering the most ancient and ritualistic “The Dances of the Gods”, the student learns to defend himself against multiple attackers. Less becomes more. Swiftness of movement overcomes brute force. Once he masters the respective schemes (techniques) of the Shorinjin, Jujitsu, Aiki-jujitsu, Pa Sai, Shinkeido, and Self Defense arts, the student is so well trained, his defense, at his option, becomes a blur of movement. Magically, it seems, his opponent is down or incapacitated. How the attacker is defeated is irrelevant. That the attacker is down and out is of the only importance. Like the principles in Zen, he is trained to react according to what is presented to him. His reaction is instinctive and immediate. No reflection is necessary. As he progresses, if deemed worthy, the student is then taught the art of weaponry. He first learns the art of the Yawara, a six inch by 1 inch diameter dowel. It’s principles can be practiced with the use of a yawara, a pen, or a quarter. The next weapon is that of the Tengu sword. It is a spinning, double-edged, double-sword-fighting art. According to ancient Japanese mythology, the Tengu, a half-bird/half-man creature that dwelled in the forests of Japan occasionally would teach mortals such as Yoshimitsu, a great warrior in old Japan, Miyamoto Musashi, the greatest swordsman in Japan, and Uyeshiba, the founder of modern Aikido, some of its sword-fighting secrets. Through ancient ritual dances, and the aid of the instructor, the student learns to unlock the secrets of the Tengu double-sword-fighting techniques. Another weapon is that of the Bo, the long staff, whose length is determined by the height of its wielder. Here again ritual dances play a major part in mastering this weapon. Other weapons mastered are the Tonfa, Nunchaku, the Sai, the Handkerchief, and the Coin. It is said that a graduate of the Shorinjin Ninjitsu level can have a black belt in any of forty martial arts within 6 months. This has been proven many times.


NINJITSU MASTER
Once all the principles and techniques of open-hand and weapons are mastered, the student then enters the NINJITSU MASTER training. He learns more about the human body, its strong points, its weak points. Points of the human body to sedate, notify, stun, resuscitate. He learns to rehabilitate injuries and heal the sick. He is able to recognize and increase his aura and that of other people. He looks beyond the surface of man to seek the truth of their intentions. To develop further, he must hear without listening. He must see without his eyes. He must sense before he touches. He must smell without the use of his nose. He must taste without the use of his tongue. Only then will he be capable of developing his sixth sense. Then he must learn to communicate without speaking - Telepathically. Thus, he would then be ready to enter the fourth dimension and let Time work to his advantage. He uses the innate power of Man to effect changes in his fellow man through love. But above all, the NINJITSU MASTER is a student of Man. He is grounded to earth, governed by a Higher Power, and a free-flowing spirit of ever-increasing knowledge.


Sam I. Ishigo
Founder
NINWAY NINJITSU ACADEMY
P.O. Box 8
Honomu, HI 96728
Tel: 808-963-6128
Fax: 808-963-6750

[Jay Bell]

That was horribly painful to read.

[Karasu Tengu]

Yea Jay I almost agree. Just like reading your Traditional Russian MA website. I like the part about after the Communist Takeover how these arts faded into obscurity do to the oppression and pain of imprisonment for those who passed on this secret impromtu knowledge. So your saying it was practiced in secret under one of the most paranoid and watchful government's in history and no one knew about it? I'm sure you have all the documentation as to the Russian lineages. You know, who taught who from the begining. And to paraphrase the shoe pounding Nikita - didn't they discover it first, the martial arts that is. :shrug:

New Line

I will say this. I believe Mr. Ishigo only obtained 5th or 6th dan. Tatsukin might know more about that though since he is in Hawaii.

Also, since Saito Sr. first taught his family's NinjItsu in 1966 isn't that well before the American Ninja Boom of the early to mid 1970's? Yet he does not lay claim to starting said boom. So what's his motivation?

I also know that Mr. Muramoto did not go to the Saito's to ask about thier art but instead sought out a former practioner who may or may not have gained BB ranking and addmitted that he had not practiced the art in many years and was not 100% in his recolection. He was teaching some form of karate or other MA. Why did Mr. Muromoto do that? He writes descent commontary but is hardly an authority on Ninpo (ninja arts) or a certified Japanese Historian (at least according to his Bio on Koryu.com).

Dr. Karl Friday also admitted that he never took the time to research the Saito Art. He also stated on Koryu.com that "they", Koryu.com and their associated historians, do not research Ninjutsu and could really care less about it since it is not Koryu bujutsu. He even went as far as to point out the "questionable aspects" of Hatsumis claims.

Many of you comment on pictures from the TFAM website and about the Tengu-to and its effectiveness. I'm glad so many of you all knowing masters can tell from a few pictures the total effectiveness of an art's techniques and its entire philosophy. So far to date only three people from the BJK have visited the school. Two were extremely rude even though they were shown common courtiousy. They pased up and down the viewing area as if they wanted to get on the mat and go for it. The only civil BJK member to visit the school is Dan Wiedeman (6th dan I believe). He asked some good questions and was very open and upfront. The most he has said is that it is not BJK. I think a lot of Don Roley's distain stems from him feeling slighted when Phelps Sensei was invited to Japan by a Ranked American Student ( a female Lawyer from the Mid West I believe) of Hatsumi's to visit with him for I believe a week or two and no one coordinated it throught Don.

I understand that Mark Saito Jr. is planning a trip to Fukushima, Japan with his Japanese wife who is fluent in the language to do family/historical research on the art.

I think everyone needs to just go train in your own art and stop worrying about what others are doing. If it really bugs you that much go kick thier ass or sue them for fraud. :rolleyes:

Steve McGovern
Saito NinjItsu

[Karasu Tengu]

BJK Club (http://www.rdg.ac.uk/martial-arts/club.shtml?ninjitsu)

Looks like there need to be some regulation within thier own org.

[Jay Bell]

Yea Jay I almost agree. Just like reading your Traditional Russian MA website. I like the part about after the Communist Takeover how these arts faded into obscurity do to the oppression and pain of imprisonment for those who passed on this secret impromtu knowledge. So your saying it was practiced in secret under one of the most paranoid and watchful government's in history and no one knew about it? I'm sure you have all the documentation as to the Russian lineages. You know, who taught who from the begining. And to paraphrase the shoe pounding Nikita - didn't they discover it first, the martial arts that is.

If you would do some reading there, chief, you'd see that those old lines of Russian arts are still very much in existance today. As far as documentation, Russian arts don't document lineages in the same way that Japan does. Nice try...but apples and oranges only have the similarities of being fruit.

**Another note. Sokoli Stalina were practitioners of what is today Russian Martial Art, as were the KGB. Today, it is the training for Spetsnaz GRU, MVD units.

As I said before...painful to read.

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Yea Jay I almost agree. Just like reading your Traditional Russian MA website. I like the part about after the Communist Takeover how these arts faded into obscurity do to the oppression and pain of imprisonment for those who passed on this secret impromtu knowledge. So your saying it was practiced in secret under one of the most paranoid and watchful government's in history and no one knew about it? I'm sure you have all the documentation as to the Russian lineages.

One sign of someone on the ropes who can't prove his dubious claims is he attacks the guys who doubt those claims. It is a sign of desperation. Instead of providing proof of those claims, they try to put the doubters on the defensive. That is what we see above. Of course, Steve McGovern also gained some noteriety for his conduct as documented by Dave Lowry in this article,

http://www.e-budo.com/html/snobb.htm

In case you can't tell, Wayne Muromoto was the guy who was accused of "anti-Polinisian" snobbery and Steve was the guy who did it. It would be nice if instead of attacking others, people like Steve could show the slightest bit of proof to the claims of Mark Saito sr.

Last Saturday I worked out with two guys who trained in Systema. One of them had even been to Russia and trained with a guy named Mikail (sp) and others. So we know that the Russian martial art Systema esists in Russia. Can the Saito ryu provide the slightest bit of proof (outside of the word of Mark Saito sr of course) that Saito ryu existed prior to Mark Saito sr in the 80s and in Japan? So far, I have not seen any proof. The folks in it all say that it exists, but they can't point me to anything I can access on my own to back up their claims. No newspaper knew they existed, no source outside of their dojo was aware they existed. Just like Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan, etc.


Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Also, since Saito Sr. first taught his family's NinjItsu in 1966 isn't that well before the American Ninja Boom of the early to mid 1970's? Yet he does not lay claim to starting said boom. So what's his motivation?

Proof please. Ron Duncan claims to have been teaching ninjutsu since the 60s, yet no one outside of his inner circle claims to have been aware of it. Talking like it existed does not make it true.

Let me guess, you can not point me to anything outside of a trip to San Diego and your teacher, right?


Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Many of you comment on pictures from the TFAM website and about the Tengu-to and its effectiveness. I'm glad so many of you all knowing masters can tell from a few pictures the total effectiveness of an art's techniques and its entire philosophy.

Oh, did I say that I knew it's entire philosophy? What I say, and will repeat again, is that the things that Phelps does in it shows a complete lack of knowledge about swords and no one I know in Japan would do the things he does witha sword. Want an example? In one technique he is not in danger of being cut, but leaves his sword so that it's edge is hit by the attackers sword edge. No one I know who does any type of sword work would do that kind of thing. In my view, it shows a complete lack of skill in sword work. Coupl this with the way Mark Saito sr was shown up by Don Angier and you can ssafely say that the Saito guys have shown no skill with a sword.


Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
So far to date only three people from the BJK have visited the school. Two were extremely rude even though they were shown common courtiousy. They pased up and down the viewing area as if they wanted to get on the mat and go for it. The only civil BJK member to visit the school is Dan Wiedeman (6th dan I believe). He asked some good questions and was very open and upfront. The most he has said is that it is not BJK. I think a lot of Don Roley's distain stems from him feeling slighted when Phelps Sensei was invited to Japan by a Ranked American Student ( a female Lawyer from the Mid West I believe) of Hatsumi's to visit with him for I believe a week or two and no one coordinated it throught Don.

Congratulation. I had stopped posting since Russ left, but the above mention of my name brought me back. Deal with me.

What I want to know, is why you are now changing your story. Before, you were claiming Hatsumi invited Phelps thorugh an American Shihan. Now you are saying that she did it on her own. Damn, you are trying to cover you tail pretty damn hard.

And you also used to mention that Kevin Millis and one other (name temporarily forgotten) trained with you and said the art was similar to the Bujinkan. Now you are saying that only three people have visited your school and two were rude and only Weidman commented (negativly) on its similarity to BBT.

How about you get Phelps (who speaks English, has a computer and is registered here UNLIKE HATSUMI (so don't try to use that dodge)) to give the name of this person who invited him? I want to know if she initiated the trip, or if Phelps did. And I want Phelps to say her name so that when the person I think it is (Regina Brice) says she was contacted first you guys can't say it was just a mistake.

And if you can't get the name of this person, then we can treat your story like we do Frank Dux's story about his teacher Tanaka- also without any proof to back it up.

To sum up this thread. The Saito ryu claims it is a Japanese art with a thousand year old history. Yet they can not show one bit of proof in Japan that the art esisted there. (Oh yeah- Mark Saito is Asian so he must have been taught ninjutsu like he claims :shrug: )

They also can show no proof that Mark Saito recived the training he claims or that the art existed prior to him.

The Japanese terms they say was passed on by Native speakers is so bad it is funny. The history they claim makes Japanese laugh (Shaolin monks training ninja in secret- :rolleyes: ) and the stuff they do has little relation to what is seen in Japan.

In short, Frank Dux may find them good company, but few others should.

[Karasu Tengu]

Don, put up the post where I said Hatsumi invited Phelps. You can't becuase it doesn't exist. I have always stated that Phelps was invited by a BJK Member. Therefore you are again talking through your hat.

Oh and I did read Lowery's article after someone emailed me a discussion he had with him. Seems Mr. Lowery is ripe for getting his info secondhand and not checking things out for himself as well. He went off Wayne Muramoto's information. As it was Lowery didn't even get THAT right. I guess that's what can be expected from a "Professional Writer". I did not accuse Wayne of being"anti-Polinisian" I said the statement he used about "Cheese smelling foriengers" was a racist. Since Wayne stood by his statement that would make him racist in that respect. So why didn't the reknowned Mr. Lowery just print my name as the accuser in his article? Why did he not name the Saito's as frauds? Because he wouldn't want to be suied for liable that's why.

Who's Kevin Mills and please put up the post where I said this. Another non-existant Don Factiod. I do know a David Mills.

You seem to have this big deal about who learned from who. Saito learned his art from his Grandfather. Maternal or paternail why does that make a difference? He was also taught by his mother as well. Oh but I guess historically women were never taught the arts. And your point about same-named people marrying. Were not the Lower Classes in Japan authorized Sir Names only after the Meji Restoration? That would mean that even thought two people might have the same last name they were not necessarily blood related. If Wayne Muramoto or Dave Lowery really wanted to investigate the art, there are plenty of people around who studied with Saito Sr. in the early years who are qualified to talk about it still around who can verify this fact. Professor Kaito (David Nuuiwa, sp) who has NEVER stuided Saito Ryu and has been around a long time in the MA community has known Saito Sr. since he was a kid and knows of his Grandfather as well. He's not in "The Circle" Why didn't they ask him? He teaches Phelps the Lua art and that has nothing to do with Phelps's involvement in Saito Ryu.

Actually Don you no absolutly nothing about the Saito art. You've never seen it and never investigated it other than reading the TFAM Website. You merely comment on its lack of Koryu type documentation. Since they were not of the Samurai Class but the Farmer Class I can see no reason, historically from the Japanese perspective and I do have you to thank for starting my studies in this area, why they would do so. As far as the sword technique you looked at, that's because they don't use this sword or understand the reasoning behind it. That's good. The sword is not our soul. Its a piece of metal stuck in wood. If it is damaged, broken, whatever it doesn't matter, we make another one.

As far as pointing you in directions. You're in Japan and close to Fukushima go search it out for yourself if you are really interessted. No matter what I present to you, Phill or anybody else you will not take it at face value anyway so you might as well go look around for yourself. Put you money where your mouth is or wait until Mark Saito Jr. publishes his findings.

Rigina Brice. I'm not sure of the name. The all old email was dumped when the old server went down and a new server was established. Yeah pretty convienent huh. However I did mention this awhile ago. But if this is who [b]you[b] think it was why don't you just ask her?

As far as using terms. Its Baseball not Basabaru (phonetic), an American word. The Japanese don't even spell it the same or even make the attempt to pronounce it correctly so by your reasoning the Japanese are not playing Real Authentic American Baseball merely an imitation.

Hey why don't you give Hatsumi a computer and register him here. Better yet, translate for him.
:rolleyes:

Jay, Yes I know that we westerners do not document things like the Japanese. I was merely making a point. Just because something is not public knowledge doesn't mean it did not, doesnot or could not exist (have existed). I believe Don had stated on another board, and I'm paraphrasing here, that the tradition and practice of purely oral transmission of information did not exist in Japan.

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu

I was merely making a point. Just because something is not public knowledge doesn't mean it did not, doesnot or could not exist (have existed)

I do have a question here...

Are there any examples of things like the special swords they use, etc... in any of the museums or open collections in japan?

[Don Roley]

Wow Steve! What a great example of hate and rudeness on your part! I say that you guys have shown no more proof than Frank Dux or Ronald Duncan, and instead of providing even the SLIGHTEST bit of proof outside of Mark Saito's word, you go on the attack. You attacked Me, you attacked Dave Lowry, you attacked Wayne Muromoto (again) and you attacked Karl Friday. It makes me feel good to be part of this international conspiracy against the Saito ryu.

Let me deal with just one part of your hate-filled, but fact deficient, post.


Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Who's Kevin Mills and please put up the post where I said this. Another non-existant Don Factiod. I do know a David Mills.

Here we go,

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=15043&perpage=15&highlight=kevin%20millis&pagenumber=9

I used the term "you" in this case to mean the defneders of mark Saito's claims. As you can see, Kevin Millis and Glen Morris are mentioned. Now we read your (in this case the singular) post saying that there were two Bujinkan practicioners (unamed) who visited and were rude. Hmmmm.

And I am still waiting for some sort of facts from you. Facts that I can go and check for myself instead of trusting your word. You say someone invited Phelps to Japan. I want to hear that from himself. He is a registered member here. If it turns out that everyone other than he said he was invited and that turns out to be false, then he can simply say it was a mistake on your part and not deception. But if he makes the claim himself on this board, then he can't use that excuse. Again, he is a registered member who has posted and his silence on this matter woud indicate he might just want to give himself some defense when the story turns out to be a fabrication. Of course, he could just post the name and circumstances of his trip to Japan and set this to rest- but I am not going to place any heavy bets on him doing so for the reasons I just gave. :D

Oh and Technopunk, no to your question. No physical evidence like that, no mention in a historical or other work and no back up for key parts of their story like Shaolin monks coming to Japan. :rolleyes:

[Karasu Tengu]

Don I am so glad you can see so clearly into people. So when I defend myself or my position against you or anyone else , or I point it out when someone who is a "Professional "Writer" is venomous and has not done thier own research and then publishes statements that effect, or I point out that experts you have personally referenced who really don't don't lend that much credence to what you practice or Hatsumi claims then that is considered hate. Very well, so be it.

FYI, here's Mr. Lowery's response.


Dear Mr. XXXXXXX, (Name remove on request to protect his privacy. Yes Don, repsonsible people do this sort of thing.)
Unfortunately, the "whole incident" was not made up. The putative "ryu" was something called "Sato ryu," which is being taught in Hawaii and I believe, in a few places on the mainland. The authority who investigated it was Mr. Wayne Muromoto, of Honolulu. He found, as I observed in the article, no
documentation from any Japanese sources, a story by the teacher that was historically and culturally improbable to say the least, and techniques being practised which were identical to modern karate-do. This "ryu" has been extensively discussed on e-budo's site and if you have further questions, I suggest you do a search on that site. Finally, since I am a professional writer whose livelihood depends on getting my facts straight and telling the truth, please do not make inferences about my "making things up" without offering any evidence in that regard.

Sincerely,

Dave Lowry


I see Wayne has graduated from High School Graphics Teacher, Martial Arts online magazine publisher and skilled Martial Artist to "authority". I take that to mean in every Japanese Martial Art since Mr. Lowery is "a professional writer whose livelihood depends on getting my facts straight and telling the truth".

As for swords. I'm sure every weapon and artifact that ever existed in Japan is in its national musuem. Maybe "we" should send them one.

As for you link to ebudo I believe this is the what you are refering to:
Gozanryu wrote:
If I have seen Sensei Millis and Dr. Morris exhibit your art, that is not the "real deal"? I am trying not to be difficult, however, you are not making much sense. If the two, above mentioned high ranking members of your system are not representative of your art, perhaps YOU should inform them. I think they might dissagree with you. Your arrogance astounds me.

I fail to see your point. As for the two BJK members whom I spoke of, they were probably in their early to mid 20's and had come down from either northern San Diego or Orange County I do not rightly recall. I also did say on another thread that I had worked out with three BJK members onboard my last ship. Two were EOD Team and one I have known for over 20 years.

For future reference Don, If you want Phelps or Saito to respond to you, which they won't because who are you anyway, come see them for yourself. I'll lay odds that Hatsumi will not come to me if I demand it in the same manner you do. And for someone who professes to be so engulfed in the Japanese Culture you sure as hell do not display it. BTW did you ever get that Carbon Dating done on Hatsumi's Densho as I requested? Oh I'm sorry, that's the standard turn around attack.

Everyone, all of this has been discussed on ebudo. Go there and do a search and read it all for yourselves. John Lindsey no longer allows the topic to be discussed on that board but it is in the archives. It is rather pointless to do it all over again.

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
For future reference Don, If you want Phelps or Saito to respond to you, which they won't because who are you anyway, come see them for yourself. I'll lay odds that Hatsumi will not come to me if I demand it in the same manner you do.

Wow, more hatred!

Andof course, Hatsumi is not registered here, but Phelps is. But for some reason, Phelps just can not take the responsibility of making his own statmenets, and thus there is some plausible deniability when mistakes are made. Like in his terrible Japanese translations. People keep saying he is fluent in the language, but he does not show any great ability in the language.

And I would jus tlike to point out to people who do not know the facts, Wayne Muromoto offered to look over the research that supposably is going on by the Saito ryu. That was when the accusations that he was racist started. The Saito ryu likes to claim that no one who says they think the art is a creation of Mark Satio sr fromt he 80s has looked at their research. But they won't show that research to anyone and have attacked those that make the effort to offer.

Again, Frank Dux and Ashida Kim have just as many red flags associated with their story and the same lack of proof for their claims. If the Saito ryu guys don't like it, then the best way to mand that would be to provide some sort of proof that does nto rely on their word and can be independently verified. Kind of what Koyama Ryutaro, Nawa Yumio and a few other guys in Japan did for the4 Togakure ryu.

[Jay Bell]

Per Admin request, please keep it civil you two

[Don Roley]

Ok Jay. I can keep it civil, but it has been my experience that when folks have nothing they can point to as facts and their arguments are shot down they tend to start trashing their detractors.

To summerize so far...

There is nothing that anyone can access for themselves to back up the claim that Mark Saito sr learned his art instead of creating it about 1980 or so. The Saito ryu talks about certain things as if they were facts, but can't show us where to look on our own.

There is no documentation for this school in Japan.

(Perhaps I should say that I can find no more documentation here than I can for Ashida Kim just to forestall the excuse of, "well did you ask EVERYONE in Japan about this?"

There is no example of their secret weapon in Japan.
(And the thing looks like a Pineapple knife from Hawaii.)

There is no tales of Shaolin monks in Japan- which means that tales of them appearing in a legend like the Saito ryu one are as out of place as Mayan pyramids in historical legends of King Arthur.

The Japanese used by the Saito ryu is said to have been passed down form a native speaker who taught Saito sr. Yet no one with proven Japanese ability says that their examples are anything other than bad jokes.

No person who has lived in Japan, speaks the language, studies a martial art that can be found in Japan and/or has a reputation for knowing a lot about pre-modern Japanese arts has said they believe the Saito ryu was created in Japan.

The people who match the above description (Karl Friday, Dave Lowry, Wayne Muromoto) who have made comments about the Saito ryu all said they believe it was created by the Hawaian Mark Saito sr and not taught to him as he claims. They have all been attacked and their charecter, professionism and competence have been called into question by the Saito ryu at every oppurtunity.

The Saito ryu tried to quell comments from Bujinkan members by saying that Phelps was somehow invited, helped or had a meeting set up with Hatsumi by an influential American shihan. Yet Phelps himself refuses to give his account of the tale and no one in the Saito ryu seems able to even give the name of this person who supposably acted as a go- between for Hatsumi and Phelps.

There we go. Not very flattering, but all true with as little emotional baggage as possible.

[Bob Hubbard]

Let me see if I've got this argument summed up here:

- The organizations spelling is wrong.

- The back history can not be verified by outside sources.

- Some of the terminology is also questionable based on established arts of similar nature.

- This debate has been beated to death on other forums, and the links to those debates posted.

- A couple of those involved here, have 'heat' from another board.


Now, I've got some grumbling from a few folks due to what they perceive as a rehashed pissing match brewing. Personally, I don't see too much worth me worrying about in here at the moment, but if the tempers can't be kept in check, and no one has anything -new- to add to the arguments, then it's best to let this one die out. I think most points were made.

:asian:

[Karasu Tengu]

Kaith - you are right. Its a dead horse. The problem with "Terms" stems from two words that we have always said were incorrect and have explained why we choose not to change them.

Yes Don, you are right, its not very flattering but at least its civil.

As far as the people you mentioned being attacked by me and me alone as the case may be. I have never attacked Dr. Friday but merely pointed out the neither he nor anyone at Koryu.com has any interest in discussing Ninpo/Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu related topics. Just because I use his quotes and comments and those of the people he has intervied pointing out discrepancies with Hatsumi's claims, suddenly I am attacking you and the BJK personally. Dr. Friday stated that he did not research the Saito's art but that it did not look like ninjutsu he had seen (I assume he means BJK). To me that statement is truthful and I have never had a problem with it.

I pointed out that Mr. Lowery, as a professional writer, and who may be considered an expert in many traditional Japanese martial arts is not an expert in Ninpo/Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu, did not do as he stated in his email that was forwarded to me. So my point was this, what does that say about his character? A writer is known by his words and a man by his actions as well, correct?

As far as Wayne is concerned, perhaps since he is in Hawaii he should make his offer, if it is truly genuine, to the Saito's and not me. Mark Saito Jr. is working on the history and is planning a trip to Japan. This would be the proper course of action since, as you always so adamently and constantly point out, it is thier responsibility and not that of thier students to provide proof. And as I recall someone not involved in Saito Ryu also mentioned that a different statement from the same article could be construde as having racial overtones as well. So it wasn't just me.

Kawika Sensei (Mr. Phelps) has already responded on this board and to emails. If he does not wish to respond to you over the internet that's his perogative. I for one am not going to tell him he must do this. Yes he does own a computer. So you mean in the 21st Century Hatsumi cannot purchase a computer and get on line to answer questions about his claims? He doesn't have to and chooses not to. Its beneith him. Hatsumi does not respond to rudeness so why should anyone else. I think you need to go back and re-read the Rules of the BJK and maybe counsel with Hatsumi as to your behavior. Being genuinly inquisitive is one thing. Questioning documentation and history is fine. Being accusational and repugnant is another.

Jay. As with all the other threads on Saito Ryu I think this one is dead as well so I am done with it.

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Let me see if I've got this argument summed up here:

- The organizations spelling is wrong.

- The back history can not be verified by outside sources.

This is putting it mildly. There is no evidence to support the personal training history of the still living Mark Saito sr. Just like Frank Dux or Ashida Kim, he makes claims of being taught something, but will not show even the slightest bit of proof that such training actually happened. Everyone I know can show proof of their training, why can't Mark Saito sr? So, if we treat the Saito ryu guys like we do Dux and Kim, they really have no complaint until they show that proof.

And many aspects of their claims are actually contridicted by established facts. Couple this with the many, many problems that have cropped up with Saito sr (like his half second "duel" he forced on Don Angier)and his story and you see why we do not want to treat them as anything more than another Ashida Kim.


Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
- Some of the terminology is also questionable based on established arts of similar nature.

It is not questionable Japanese, as one person (not a Bujinkan member) wrote, it is hysterically bad Japanese. Supposably passed down from a native speaker. Thus it is kind of doubtfull that Saito's story of being taught by his grandfather has any merit. Couple that with the lack of proof for that training and the rather silly history and you see why no one in Japan I know of give them any credit.

[Ninway J]

Being a practitioner of Saito Ninjitsu, I never really wondered about the history and lineage of the art as opposed to just concentrate on learning and practicing the art. I must say that everything said is very interesting. Sure, there is no evidence, but I don't think it discounts that Mark Saito Sr. was taught by his maternal grandfather. If not his grandfather, I think he was taught AT LEAST by someone.

I find that Saito Ninjitsu is an effective and complex art encompassing over 120 dances and schemes. My sensei, Sam Ishigo, opened his school in the mid-1980s. Could the art really have been created by Mark Saito Sr. in 1980 or so, and have my sensei learn everything in California in time to open up a school in Hawaii? While my sensei was living in California a while back, he initially was learning Kung Fu, but quit when he found that Saito Ninjitsu taught ground-fighting and other things his Kung Fu sifu did not teach at the time. My point is that the art is too complex to just have been created by Mark Saito Sr.

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ninway J
If not his grandfather, I think he was taught AT LEAST by someone.

Snip

My point is that the art is too complex to just have been created by Mark Saito Sr.

I have heard the same argument from other groups that have turned out to be complete frauds. In fact, there if very little in what anyone in the Saito ryu has said that I have not heard from the followers of frauds like Jack Stern, Honraku Hoshino, Ron Duncan, etc.

Go over to e-budo and look up a guy named Richard Price. He used to practice "Fuma- ryu" and said it was a great, effective art. He said it was just too good and complex to have been made up by the guy calling himself Honraku Hoshino. I sparred with him on the boards for months before he got a chance to ask Hoshino about the things I said. The answers, or rather lack of them, caused him to leave the Fuma ryu and study another art. A few years later he now says that the Fuam ryu was a complete waste of time and dangerously stupid based on his new experiences.

Richard Price is my one big success in advising people away from frauds. Most of the time, people have invested too much time in training and do not want to admit they were stupid enough to follow an incompetent con-man. Richard was the one guy who had reached instructor status but was not bound by his ego and made the break. Today he is much better than he ever could have been under the Fuma ryu guys.

So, your arguments all sound like ones I have heard before from frauds and you can not show any sort of proof. Is it any wonder you are not treated as anything other than those you resemble?

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Ninway J
My point is that the art is too complex to just have been created by Mark Saito Sr.

I don't know much about your art, other than what I have read on their website, but I would like to point out that many "complex arts" have been created by Individual people...

Many very accomplished martial artists, as well as frauds. "Jeet Kun Do" was "created" by Bruce Lee. "Dux Ryu Ninjitsu" was "Created" by Frank Dux...

Theoretically It is possible for Mr. Saito to have studied say, Judo, or Karate, or Aikido, or a combination of arts, and blended them and called it "Ninjitsu" (I am not saying he did this, I am just saying that its something that is possible for anyone to do)

Someone who does this may be a very accomplished artist, who simply lies about the origin of their art to give it more credibility... (Agian, not referring specifically to Mr Saito, its a general statement of caution...)

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
I have never attacked Dr. Friday but merely pointed out the neither he nor anyone at Koryu.com has any interest in discussing Ninpo/Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu related topics.

Just in case anyone is led astray by your comment and related ones....

Your comment would only be relevent if Dr Friday, Dave Lowry, Wayne Muromoto and everyone who 1) has lived in Japan, 2) has great experience in Japanese martial arts, 3) has demonstrated fluency in the language, etc, said that the Saito ryu was not a ninjutsu tradition. What they said was that the thing called the Saito ryu is not even a Japanese created art. You can not dispute the expertise of these people and others I have not mentioned are such that they KNOW what comes from Japan and what was created by someone like Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, etc. Quite simply put, when looking at the Saito ryu, all of these experts on what is Japanese and what was created outside of Japan, as well as every other person studying martial arts in Japan is that the art is not Japanese which would mean that the most likely explination is that Mark Saito sr made the art up rather than have been taught by a native Japanese as he claims but can not prove.

I challenge anyone with the same expertise to provide a person with years of living and training in Japan with a similar level of expertise in the language, history, etc to say that the art taught by Mark Saito sr shows signs that it was created in Japan rather than being created by Mark Saito sr. The facts are that there is no proof that Saito learned it like he claims, there are several points that raise red flags and the Saito ryu claims that no one who decries its claims has seen the proof they hint at having while refusing to show that proof to anyone like Dave Lowry, Karl Friday, and Wayne Muromoto. Instead, such people are labled with claims of being "racist" and the like, which no one outside of the Saito ryu seems to agree with once they know the facts. Take a look at this thread (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=21219) and see how Steve Mcgovern was not willing to back up his accusations when facing the person he accused of beign a racist and no one other than the Saito ryu folks thought that Wayne Muramoto really made a racist comment.

[Seig]

Mr. Roley,
I think you have made your point, several times in fact. Please discontinue the "Fraud Busting." I am not taking sides nor am I disputing anything any one has said. I am simply saying, you have made your point, it is time to stop.
Seig

[Don Roley]

No problem. I have stated my case. I will just sit by and relax until some point worth responding to is made, or my name is once again brought up in this thread.:wavey:

[Ihab]

Hi
My name is Ihab, I’m a student of Shorinjin-Ryu Saito Ninjitsu
I study under Grandmaster Mark Saito Jr. “soke”
I have been training sine April ’96, my rank is shodan

I read a few of the messages about the art, and I would like to clarify a few points

Shorinjin-Ryu Saito Ninjitsu is an art developed by the Saito Clan of Fukushima ken Japan. It is 100% Japanese, and is over one thousand years old. It is not a ninja art, that's why its spelled Ninjitsu.

This art was passed down for many generations from grandfather to grandson

In early 1900’s Hanschichi Saito moved to Hawaii with his wife, and daughter. Years after the daughter gave birth to Mark Saito, at age 4 he began his training with his grandfather
He concluded his training at age 13

April 4, 1966 Mr. Saito opened the first ever public school of Shorinjin-Ryu Saito Ninjitsu. Mr. Saito is an 8th degree Ninjitsu master

He taught his 2 sons Mark Jr. and Maui Saito
Only 3 students received the rank of Judan Sensei Mark Saito Jr, Sensei Maui Saito, and Sensei Shanon “Kawika” Phelps

This is a very ancient martial art, and to this day it is taught the same way it was taught hundreds of years ago

Saito Ninjitsu teaches the use of many weapons one of which is the Tengu sword It has a 13 inch double-sided blade, that is round, not pointed The sword is spun around the body, and is used for traditional cuts

For more info about the art you can log on soke’s website
www.spiritaloha.com

[Dale Seago]

Originally posted by Ihab
Shorinjin-Ryu Saito Ninjitsu is an art developed by the Saito Clan of Fukushima ken Japan. It is 100% Japanese, and is over one thousand years old. It is not a ninja art, that's why its spelled Ninjitsu.

This art was passed down for many generations from grandfather to grandson. . .

. . .This is a very ancient martial art, and to this day it is taught the same way it was taught hundreds of years ago

And your evidence of all this is. . .what, exactly? Please read the rest of the thread before you respond so you'll know what has already been covered.

(Haud ontae yer haggis, lads, here we gang again!!!)

[Ihab]

Sir

There have been some evidence found in the past to substanciate this about the Saitos

but i dont have anything in my hand to give you

i have seen soke give many demonstrations
i have never seen anybody do what he's done
it was nothing short of amazing

i'm not saying this of naievity
i have met many great martial artists such as Toyoda Sensei, Ikeda Sensei and many others. they were all great,
i have such profound respect for them

i dont think i can change your mind, all i can say is
if you've seen what i've seen soke perform, i think you would have a different view about this.

i fully believe the saito story, to me it makes sense

[Ihab]

i would like to add to my previous message

as i stated the saito art was passed down from grandfather to grandson. it was an oral tradition as well as physical training

the in between generations never heard of their family art or had any idea of it

hanschichi saito did not pass the art on to his son
tsenamoru saito in fact he was asked about it much later in his life and he knew nothing of it. hanschichi did pass it on to his granson mark saito

this is why there is not a recorded history of this art

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
There have been some evidence found in the past to substanciate this about the Saitos

but i dont have anything in my hand to give you

We get a lot of that, don't we guys? :rolleyes:

I can say I have never seen anything that substantiates the claim by Mark Saito that he learned a martial art from his grandfather. All we basically have to rely on is Mark Saito's word. I know guys who train with Ashida Kim who says it is the best art in the world, so people on the internet claiming that an art is too good to have been made up is just not convincing to me anymore. There is always someone willing to say the art is fantastic no matter how bad it is.

[Saitama Steve]

Had a letter come into the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai office last month all the way from Ireland asking if a certain Sato ryu was legitimate. I had to translate this for my teacher.

Any connection to this rather spurious Saito ryu?

[Saitama Steve]

I've just run a google on it and found a website. Clearly nothing to do with this Saito ryu. (Should have done my homework first. Doh!)

Anyway here's the website.

Sato ryu (http://www.satoryuninjutsu.com/)

[Saitama Steve]

I've just done a google on said "Sato ryu" and found a website for it. Nothing to do with Saito ryu whatsoever. (Should have done a background check first. Doh!)

Anyway, here's the website.

Sato ryu (http://www.satoryuninjutsu.com/)

[Ihab]

the only proof that mr. saito was taught by his grandfather is mr. saitos mother. she used to refine him after his lessons.
but she passed away in '86, so there is no proof

i presume none of you have met the saitos
yes their story is unconventianol, and their art is different
our style of jui-jitsu is not what you consider taditional japanese juijitsu, it resembles baguajang.
pa sai chou, and pa sai dai the unballanced fighting arts
tengu swordsmanship
are all very unique

but to someone who has had the privilage of training with the
saitos in dojos, beaches, jounies deep in the mountains

i had a chance to see what IT is all about

i fully believe this art was the gift of the shorinjin to the saito clan

i understand my senpi chris has posted a few messages
he is much more knowledgable than i

if you have any questions for us we're around

aloha

ihab

[Ninway J]

I just realized something interesting. Someone mentioned that Saito Ninjitsu kata looks like Okinawan Karate. Okinawan Karate looks very "chinese." So does Shorinjin-ryu Ninjitsu. So does Shorinji or Chinese Kempo (of course). They all use the word pinan (however you want to spell it) to name some katas. They all have shaolin influence (shorin-ryu, shorinjin-ryu, shorinji.) Kempo was started in Hawaii. Mark Saito Sr. is from Hawaii. To me, all three arts look very similar, but I'd have to say that Shorinjin-ryu Ninjitsu looks more like Kempo.

Okinawa is closer to China than the rest of Japan, considering that only the ocean is between them. Fukushima prefecture is in the Tohoku region, the northern-most region of the main island of Honshu, on the pacific ocean-side of the island.

Don Roley, where in Japan do you live?

My point of this post? I have no idea. Just thought I'd play around with some interesting info and throw it out there for you all.:shrug:

BTW Ihab, I'm a Shorinjin-ryu Ninjitsu practitioner too (in case you didn't already notice.) Unless there's something new, don't bother with posting too much here. I think everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, has pretty much been said so far...

Just for the record, it's Shorinjin-ryu Saito Ninjitsu, or simply Shorinjin-ryu Ninjitsu. Not Shorinjin Saito-ryu Ninjitsu...so you don't it confused with Sato ryu, or something else.

[Cryozombie]

I'm starting to have my doubts here. I mean... lets take it out of the context of the Shorinjin-ryu Ninjitsu for a moment, so the Shorinjin-ryu guys can see what I mean.


Because you see, I study an ancient Vyking Axe Fighting Art from Norway. My master is Ragnar Lobrok, and he learned from his master who was an Uncle. His family didn't know he studied it because it was a less well known axe art, only taught uncle to uncle, so dont ask his dad, he doesnt know. Don't look for it in norway tho either, because his family was the only ones who knew it it was so secret. And being Vikings, they couldnt read or write, so you will not find a written record of this style being used, even in accounts of combat written down by their enemies. Also, see, they use the word Vyking, but they werent actually Vikings, so they changed the spelling because it has a different meaning in norway where no one has heard of it.

Also, the axes they use were not traditional Viking Axes, they actually look like modern Army entrenching tools. No, there are no examples of the originals in Norway, My masters family has all of them.

But Ive seen him swing that axe, so he is for real!

Ok... now, admit to me, my story doesnt sound REALLY REALLY far fetched... But its just an echo of the Saito story... The lack of ANY record of the style, even by the opponents of it, no evidence that the "pineapple knife" they call a Tengu Sword in any records, artwork, private collections (Except the saito's) or museums...

I dunno. It sounds funny to me...

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Ihab
hanschichi saito
I see three possibilities here:
1. This is a typo
2. You can't spell
3. This is not a Japanese name
3a. Is there maybe some German blood in the Saito family line?

Jeff

[Ihab]

i admit i'm not the best speller in the world

but this is his real japanese name,
saitos were 100% japanese, until hanschichi moved to hawaii
his daughter married a potugese man

i visited his grave in hawaii, and that's how his name is printed on his tombstone

also mr david kawaikoolihi nuuhiwa "uncle david" or "dr. kaito"
is a very old friend of mr saito sr
he knows of mr saitos training with his grandfather
uncle david is the ceremonial king of hawaii, 12th dan kaito gaku, master of hawaiian art of lua

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
also mr david kawaikoolihi nuuhiwa "uncle david" or "dr. kaito"
is a very old friend of mr saito sr
he knows of mr saitos training with his grandfather
uncle david is the ceremonial king of hawaii, 12th dan kaito gaku, master of hawaiian art of lua

Just in case the international community does not know...
1) Hawaii has not been ruled by a monarchy for a few generations.

2) "uncle david" has been described as "a joke" on e-budo who tries to make good not on his own abilites, but on his claims of a bloodline and is considered a rather shady charecter by many.

3) "uncle david" has shown no expertise in Japanese language, history, martial arts, etc, or even shown a trip to Japan. In short, despite his claims of royal lineage, in an equilatarian society such as America, he has no more claim to be an expert on what is and is not a Japanese martial art than the typical guest on the Jerry Springer Show.

4) The Saito ryu guys must be pretty deseperate to try to convince people by pointing to a guy like "uncle david" than an established expert on what is and is not a Japanese martial art like Dave Lowry, Karl Friday, Koyama Ryutaro, or any source in Japan. (Not ninjutsu experts even, just a person who can say whether an art is Japanese or not.)

[Ihab]

no not desperate, never

we know what we know and thats all that matters

you seem like such an expert, have you ever met any of the saito family, or uncle david
ofcourse you havent, all of what you're saying about them is out of ignorance, and repeating other peoples gossup

i suggest you get your own facts, instead of reapting other peoples words

[Bujingodai]

I realize that Don is in Japan, so he can't. But is there a possible friendly meeting that could occur. Between the Kan and Saito clan. Not to justify sweet FA, but maybe to settle things personally.
All the slaggin that goes on, I don't see too many acvtually meeting to sit down and discuss differences in person.

[Ihab]

I have to add to what I wrote earlier to don

1- Mr. saito, and uncle David are from the old school
they’re training was done the ancient way, and was not in public

You’re the guy who wants absolute facts

2- you question Mr. saitos training, did you ever ask hanschichi or marry about Mr. saitos training. They’re the ones who knew of his training, do you have any proof that he didn’t train with his grandfather

3- uncle David, I never meant to bring him into this, and I apologize to him for this
do you have proof that he didn’t train with professor chow, or Henry okazaki
do you have proof that he didn’t train in lua which is the priest art

4- as far as him being ceremonial king, any one who knows anything about Hawaiian culture knows that uncle David was named ceremonial king of Hawaii by Hawaiian elders after Hawaii became a state in 1959

please show me absolute proof that none of these things
happened

I’m not looking for what someone said, I need physical proof

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
please show me absolute proof that none of these things
happened

I’m not looking for what someone said, I need physical proof

:lol:

You just can't be serious.

Do you have proof that Ashida Kim did not have a teacher named Shendai? How about Frank Dux's claims of being taught ninjutsu by a mysterious guy named Tanaka? Can you prove that these things did not happen? How about the Illuminati? Do you have proof that it does not exist and is secretly controlling the world?

I expected more of a fight, but in this battle of wits, the other side is unarmed. When they have to try to say that things are true unless anyone can prove them wrong, it just causes everyone to have a good laugh.

Thanks Ihab, I needed that laugh.

[Ihab]

so if you cant prove your point, and according to you saito cant prove what he says

why should i believe what you say instead of the saitos
no offense but who the hell are you

your argument is saito is false, how do you know this
your whole argument is based on what you heard
you should not be discrediting the saitos or uncle david if you cant back it up with proof, to me your words dont make sense
and your argument has no basis

please prove it to me

for you, someone told you that saito didnt train so that must mean its true.

if youre going to accuse someone, at least be able to back it up with proof and not just words

i think your type is called kushibushi, or am i wrong
so far youve been all talk, and thats it

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
your argument is saito is false, how do you know this
your whole argument is based on what you heard

What?

What I heard? No, I am talking about how I have never seen any proof backing up what Mark Saito has said. And I also point out that the Japanese he says he got from a native speaker would not have come from one because it is so bad. Thus, he probably lied. Things like that, not "what I heard."




Originally posted by Ihab
for you, someone told you that saito didnt train so that must mean its true.

It is kind of hard to follow someone of your level of intellect from time to time. Please show me where I said I heard that Saito did not train. Go ahead, I dare you. :D Better yet, how about you show me some proof that Saito trained as he said he did. I could show you years of proof from my martial arts experience, and I am not event he head of a family art like Saito claims.

And thank you for the bad attitude, insults instead of fact and logic and the continuing laughs. :lol:

[Ihab]

siato does not speak japanese and had to learn

my point to you is show me saito is a liar as you say he is

and like i said why should i believe you over him

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
siato does not speak japanese and had to learn

my point to you is show me saito is a liar as you say he is

and like i said why should i believe you over him

No, according tot he article Phelps wrote, the terms he used were the ones passed down to him by his native-speaking teacher. Those terms cause native speakers to laugh.

How about we see some proof for Saito's claims instead of trying to put the burdon of proof on those questioning those claims. Why should we trust Saito when there is no proof for his claims in Japan and he makes such increadible errors? Why should we trust anyone like you/ How about some facts I can see for myself? I read Japanese and can't find anything to back up the Saito claim on this side of the pond. other guys like Tony Kehoe have not been able to either. There has been NOTHING presented that can be traced back to an objective source open to all. It all comes down to Saito's word, and his students repeating those lines.

This all sounds like the Ashida Kim folks- "he says he's a ninja and you have to prove he isin't."

[Ihab]

ok
i dont know if mr saito sr speaks japanese
mr saito jr is taking japanese lessons

i already told you propably the only one alive who can speak about mr saito sr training is uncle david, they're old friends

what errors are you reffering to

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
i already told you propably the only one alive who can speak about mr saito sr training is uncle david, they're old friends

So you say that they say- but no proof that Mark Saito sr ever learned any sort of martial art from his grandfather as claimed. And everyone I know can show proof that they have trained- even if they are not a grandmaster. Imagine how much stuff you must have by that time, except that Mark Saito sr doesn't seem to have anything like it. Too secret to have any proof like that with their web sites, articles, books, string of dojos, etc.


Originally posted by Ihab
what errors are you reffering to

Where to start? Why don't you go over all the mistakes listed in just this thread alone? And the use of th eterm "Shorinjin" is just hysterical Japanese. No native speaker woudl use it, but Mark Saito sr claims it was the term passed on to him by a native speaker and the "fluent" :rofl: Phelps said that it meant "men of Shaolin" in Japanese. It does not.

There is a start. If you ask me really, really, nicely I can pull out all the numerous mistakes and problems that the Saito ryu story has for everyon here to see. Especially the moderators to see that I am being asked to post this information. So if you want, please, please ask for more.

[Dale Seago]

Originally posted by Don Roley
If you ask me really, really, nicely I can pull out all the numerous mistakes and problems that the Saito ryu story has for everyon here to see. Especially the moderators to see that I am being asked to post this information. So if you want, please, please ask for more.
Personally, I'd like to know more. Please?

[Karasu Tengu]

Its a funny thing to me that this is still going on. Chris Moon was suppost to have his "Hawaiian Historical Expert" contact me about Uncle David. Never heard from this expert or Chirs.

Yeah. Shorinjin is about as authentic as Ninpo, you know that word Takamatsu is claimed to have made up! Lets not forget the word Ninjitsu being right up there as well. I have a J2E Dictionary from 1956 and the word Ninpo isn't in it.

Don what you have asked for is documentation as would be seen in Koryu type organizations. Now I've alwyas given you credit for your knowledge of the Japanese language and such. But you are not all knowing when it comes to the total history of "Ninpo". I doubt there is anyone alive today who can claim that. You've referenced the BRD but it is limited. Very informative but still limitedsince it deal with Ryuha that were known public. Saito, a sirname, was most likely adopted after the Meji Restoration by the family when peasents were finally allowed to have sirnames and therefore were not of the ruling class. They (peasentry) were most likely illiterate until after that time so how and why should they document a family art never before taught outside the family? It was never taught in "Offical Dojo's" as a Ryuha. It is being taught that way now and Mark Saito Jr. is getting family documentation and research together now, though not to provide proof to you or anyone else but to preserve his heritage.

Face it you don't know squat about the Saito's art and none of your so called experts have ever really seen much of it . You don't practice the art so you are not privy to what is taught. Neither Wayne, Dr. Friday, Dave Lowery have sat down with any of the Saitos to discuss it. They never seem to go to the source. I will say I was not present when Dr. Friday met with Master Phelps for the AWMA article so I don't know what he saw or if he only saw the some still photo's.

So unless you are goig to post some records from Fukushima or have some expert on Farmer Clans and thier method of documentation them I wouldn't bother posting your information.

As for Ihab. You may be involved the art but you don't appear to know much about it from your posts. You would be better off staying out of these discussions.

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Its a funny thing to me that this is still going on. Chris Moon was suppost to have his "Hawaiian Historical Expert" contact me about Uncle David. Never heard from this expert or Chirs.

So you say someone didn't take the time to contact you so you don't have to prove anything, eh?


Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Yeah. Shorinjin is about as authentic as Ninpo, you know that word Takamatsu is claimed to have made up! Lets not forget the word Ninjitsu being right up there as well. I have a J2E Dictionary from 1956 and the word Ninpo isn't in it.

Ooops, you just walked into the one. Takamatsu did not make up the term ninpo, that is an internet rumor that Jay Bell helped disprove. Takamatsu may have polularized it, but the term Ninpo was used as part of the title of a manual published in 1728. You can find the book listed in the book "Ninja no Subete" page 449.

See how easy it is to give sources in Japan!


Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Don what you have asked for is documentation as would be seen in Koryu type organizations.

Blaaat! Wrong! I have asked for any documentation to back up your claims. I can provide plenty of proof that I study martial arts. No one has provided any proof that Saito learned martial arts like he said he did.

And lets face it, the stories from the Saito ryu are just plain wrong and show a great ignorance of the subject matter if you know what to look for. There were no Shaolin priests in Japan. The Japanese went gaga over actual Chinese monks coming to Japan and there would have been records. There are not and there is no records of the shaolin being part of literature in Japan prior to the modern age so that their appearence in the legend of the Shorinjin is like an Aztec temple being part of Technopunks story of the axe methods he learned from the Vikings.

So any source, any source at all would be nice. You do not know much of anything about Japan, its martial arts etc and are just pulling things out of you arse to try to make sense to people who do not know better. Do you know the literacy rate for peasents during the Edo period? I do and you are just blowing smoke as to why there are not written records.

So please stop the smoke screen and get us some facts.

[Ihab]

I DONT KNOW WHY YOU ARE NOT FOLLOWING

HOW MANY TIMES DID WE SAY THERE ARE NO WRITTEN RECORDS OF THE ART, IT WAS MADE PUBLIC TO THE WORLD IN 1966

IF YOU READ PHELPS'S ARTICLE YOU WOULD KNOW SHORINJIN IS NOT A JAPANESE WORD
I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE REFFERING TO IN SHAOLIN IN JAPAN

TENGU THANKS,
I'M NOT KNOWLEDGEBLE IN JAPANESE HISTORY BUT I KNOW SAITO HISTORY

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
HOW MANY TIMES DID WE SAY THERE ARE NO WRITTEN RECORDS OF THE ART, IT WAS MADE PUBLIC TO THE WORLD IN 1966

And there are no written records of the International Illuminati. :D

There would have been some sort of proof to Mark Saito sr's claim if there was any truth to it. As I said, I can prove my own training history through a variety of means. And there would be no reason for the Saito art to be secret from the Japanese after the war or so. None that does not involve something that sounds like a bad comic book.

There are civilian arts in Japan from the Edo period. Take a look at the Nagao ryu. They have written records. No secrecy, no conspiracy theories, no silly stories that involve guys like Shaoling monks that the Japanese would not have been aware of and no Japanese terms (example- "shorinjin") so bad it makes every Japanese I know of laugh themselves silly.


Originally posted by Dale Seago
Personally, I'd like to know more. Please?

Well Dale, my question really was directed at the Saito ryu guys and of course they don't want me to reveal just how wrong their story is and instead say that unless I can prove that the International Illuminati does not exist we should act like it is just as legitimate as the DMV. Ooops, of course I should have said "Saito ryu" instead of "International Illuminati" even though the logic is the same. :rolleyes:

How about you tell us about the little incident you witnessed between Mark Saito sr and Don Angier?

[Karasu Tengu]

And show the picture to prove it as well!

[Ihab]

DON YOU SHOULD GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT
IT WAS MARK SAITO JR AND DON ANGIER
SR HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT

FOR 2ND TIME SHORINJIN IS NOT JAPANESE

SO IN ORDER FOR A MARTIAL ART TO BE LIGETAMATE IT NEEDS TO BE REGISTERED WITH THE INTERNATIONAL ILLUMNAI ! HUMM

ABOUT PROOF
PLEASE DONT TURN WORDS AROUND I SAID YOU SHOULD TALK TO SAITO SR BEFGORE CALLING HIM A LIAR

[Ihab]

i agree
if you have anything show it

[Ihab]

my last post was a TYPO
i would like to see what other "CREDIBLE" evidemce Don can provide

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
FOR 2ND TIME SHORINJIN IS NOT JAPANESE

Exactly my point! So if Mark Saito sr said that it was the word that a native speaker used when teaching him that kind of indicates that he is lying about it since a native speaker woudl not have used it.


Originally posted by Ihab

SO IN ORDER FOR A MARTIAL ART TO BE LIGETAMATE IT NEEDS TO BE REGISTERED WITH THE INTERNATIONAL ILLUMNAI ! HUMM

I can't tell if you are trying to confuse the issue or if you really lack the ability to understand the humor I was using. Using all caps kind of says that you are not the most polite or the most bright guy on the block.

BTW, you may have forgotten that I asked you to contribute some sort of independently verifiable proof to this debate. You don't seem to be able to provide any such proof AT ALL and we are back to the same type of arguments that we see from Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan and Frank Dux.

[Karasu Tengu]

Don, Ihab is confused.

[Ihab]

huh
at least you have a sense of humor
to make up for your serious lack of knowledge

if you read like you say you did
you would know what is the shorinjin, where its from, and why it doesnt make sense in japanese language

you wrote so much about mistakes saitos have in their story
i've asked you a few times what do you have? show me

but you like to keep spining off to a different poit everytime i ask you

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Ihab
huh
at least you have a sense of humor
to make up for your serious lack of knowledge

Yep, now we are down to the insult stage of the thread. Never fails. When a group of frauds is pushed into a corner due to lack of fact and lgic, one of their number is designated the flamer and starts attacking.


Originally posted by Ihab
if you read like you say you did
you would know what is the shorinjin, where its from, and why it doesnt make sense in japanese language

Excuse me, have you actually read the article Phelps wrote? I have, but even Steve is saying that you are a confused person.


Originally posted by Ihab
you wrote so much about mistakes saitos have in their story
i've asked you a few times what do you have? show me

Ok, I just want the moderators to realize that I ahve been asked to show the numerous mistakes in the Saito story and such. I am only responding to a request that they made.

And I will give you all a few hours to wait for the other shoe to drop.:EG:

[Karasu Tengu]

Hey at least it will be interesting Don. I do hope it will include some actual research from Fukushima and Farmer Families as well as the names of experts and how to contact them vice "The people I spoke to" comments. Anything less is hearsay and nebulous.

As for Uncle David. When someone tells me that they are going to have 'Thier Expert' prove to me how FOS someone is and they don't follow through then I attribute it to the "Baby Bird Syndrome".


Originally posted by Karasu Tengu :
Yeah. Shorinjin is about as authentic as Ninpo, you know that word Takamatsu is claimed to have made up! Lets not forget the word Ninjitsu being right up there as well. I have a J2E Dictionary from 1956 and the word Ninpo isn't in it. [\quote]


[quote] Followed by don Roley
Ooops, you just walked into the one. Takamatsu did not make up the term ninpo, that is an internet rumor that Jay Bell helped disprove. Takamatsu may have polularized it, but the term Ninpo was used as part of the title of a manual published in 1728. You can find the book listed in the book "Ninja no Subete" page 449.

See how easy it is to give sources in Japan!

Ok the word Ninpo was made up in 1728 and not put into any dictionaries!? That's not quite ancient and not very good documentation for such a festidious people if you ask me. Then it was revised (read as rediscorvered) by Takamatsu who was given credit for its origin by more than just a few BJK people. So if the word "Shorinjin" were written or referenced even only once some time before 1900's there would be no argument then?

OK maybe you can answer this for me Don.

Out of the roughly 120+/- Ninja Clans that are thought to have existed in the Iga/Koga region, why is there not more documentation as to thier techniques, methods and lineage? Shouldn't there be more densho surviving in museums somewhere? I'm trying to be as legit with this question as I can.

With the exception of a few Koryu Ryuha that include aspects of Ninjutsu in their training, the BJK the only "Full Ninjutsu Ryu" with such "detailed documentation". (I will remind you that this documentation has been noted by experts you have quoted in arguments against everyone else, to contain descrepancies.) Doesn't this violate your rule of the Japanese documenting everything?

As for you Illuminati reference. There are over 500K references on the net. Some are listed by the Catholic Church. So what was your point? Documention?

All: I and everyone else who practice the Saito art have nothing against the BJK, it's members or Hatsumi. This is an old argument by some of this group who have never seen nor trained with any of us. I remind you that Hastumi's own writings state that the history of Ninjutsu is open to interpretation by those scholars who endeavor to define it.

Finally Don. The woman you mentioned on another board was the one who invited Phelps to Japan.

OK time to go to another board and see this dead horse get beaten all over again.

Later

[Don Roley]

Hey at least it will be interesting Don. I do hope it will include some actual research from Fukushima and Farmer Families as well as the names of experts and how to contact them vice "The people I spoke to" comments. Anything less is hearsay and nebulous.

Oh, more of your line of "unless you ask EVERYONE in Japan and they ALL say no, then we have to accept my words as truth". I guess it would be too hard to ask the people making the claim that Saito ryu existed prior to Mark Saito sr to provide some sort of proof, eh?



Ok the word Ninpo was made up in 1728 and not put into any dictionaries!?


Did I say it was invented in 1728? no I did not. I said I found a book listing it as part of it's title that has been dated to 1728. How long it had been in use before that I do not know. And (chuckle) did you check ALL the dictionaries, even those only in Japanese?

The problem with the term "Shorinjin" is not only that it does not exist in Japanese, but that it is GRAMMATICALY INCORRECT. It is like saying "header instructinger" in Englsih. Native people laugh at it, including my wife and co-workers.


Out of the roughly 120+/- Ninja Clans that are thought to have existed in the Iga/Koga region, why is there not more documentation as to thier techniques, methods and lineage? Shouldn't there be more densho surviving in museums somewhere? I'm trying to be as legit with this question as I can.


There are some damn good documentation out ther for some. But there is no documentation for the Saito ryu in Japan or prior to Mark Satio sr AT ALL.

We know that there were groups in several regions known as ninja. There is no more reference to the Saito ryu version of events as there is for Vikings running around in Heian period Japan.


As for you Illuminati reference. There are over 500K references on the net. Some are listed by the Catholic Church. So what was your point? Documention?


Oh God. I forget that you have to be as dense as a Neutron star to take the Saito ryu story seriously enough to study it.

There is no proof to the theory that there is a international conspiracy controlling the world called the Illuminati. Nothing. Infact, several facts dispute the theory's version of events. People who believe in this crack pot theory point to the fact that there is no proof as proof in itself that there is a very effective conspiracy going on.

The logic is exactly the same as that used by the Saito ryu. There is no proof. There is nothing in Japan, there is nothing prior to Mark Satio, there is nothing in records and many of the things Mark Saito says (like the use of Shorinjin) contricts known facts. So, you guys just say that it is all because of an old need to be secret. And there is no reason to be secret that does not sound like a bad comic book plot.


Finally Don. The woman you mentioned on another board was the one who invited Phelps to Japan.


Give her name and tell the story again. I want her to hear exactly how you paint her and her involvement. No beating around the bush. I want a story to send to her and give you no room to excuse your way out of it. Better yet, how about Phelps himself post the details. He is a registered member here. He can type can't he? If you say something and this person says it is very, very wrong, I know you guys will just say that it was your mistake and not Phelps lying.

In fact, I say this. Unless Phelps posts the story himself, I see no reason ti believe it. As long as he is afraid to post, I see no treason to believe heresay from you.

Yes, yes, at this point you talk about how Hatsumi wil not post here, etc. Seen it before, but Phelps is a member here and he is not standing up to verify this story. So I don't see why we should believe it.

And of course, once HE says it, there is no way he can make excuses for it not being true. So we will never see him post again. :rolleyes:

[Karasu Tengu]

Don you know the story about the invitation. You have her name and she is referenced on the TFAM website as well. Again you are not following through with you comments. You say you will ask but you never do. Same old rhetoric. :idunno:

There are a number of logical reasons why there is no documentation available in Japan.
First, as has been stated on other boards, the Saito art was not a Ryu in the context of Koryu Tradition which is what opponents of the Saito's are going by. It was a family art not taught to those outside the family until 1966. Since it is now being taught then it can qualify as a Ryu, school, method...There are plenty of people who studied with Mr. Saito in 1966 who attest to the fact that he always called it Ninjitsu. He is not claiming Koga or Iga affiliation like Dux or Kim or Duncan nor is he making claims to have started the "Ninja Craze" that's Hayes's dubious distinction. All he claims is that his art was passed to him by his Grandfather. There are still many things including another "Ryu" who is not public, does not teach to anyone outside its "family" and claims to be of the Ninpo lineage. Again I have only heard of its existance. I have NOT been told who they are only that the person who is familiar with them stated that they DO have their Densho attesting to thier lineage. If I had any other info on them I would surely share it.

Second. The Saito's by Pre Meji Japanese Social Cast were rice farmers from Fukushima. Again you continually fail to state any contradictory reference as to how and by what method this Peasent Class documented anything. You are in Japan so this should be relatively easy for you. We also know historically that public education and literacy were practically non existant for the majority of this class outside the context of their "Life Assignment" as dictated by the Tokugawa's prior to the Meji Era and the erradtication of the Shogun System. So you are still avoiding this documentation question.

Third. Hanshichi (the correct spelling) Saito did immigrate in the early part of 1900 (1906/7). He is stated by the Saito's (Mr. Saito's late mother as well) as being the last remaining family member holding Mastery of this art. Now we all know Saito is a sirname and that you have a problem with Hanshichi being Mr. Saito's Maternal Grandfather. You have stated that "No Japanese with the same last name ever marry". Again this would be incorrect. Who knows what the families in the village called themselves BEFORE 1886. They took the name, as many of the peasent class did, either from the area or ruling family. Just because they may have the same last name does not mean they were "blood related". Also marriages were more than likely arranged by parents as well.

Language: Yes know more about this than I but I'm working on it. What I know of the language is that regions had different dialects. Fukushima is 200km north of Tokoyo and had/has a different dialect. Also, the language spoken today is different than that of 100+ years ago. So the possibility and probability of a local or even village word of pre 1900 usage being laughable by modern Japanese is OK with me. 150 years ago English was spoken differently and many words that were once used are laughable today.

Saito/Illuminati: So what's the conspiracy. The Saito's want an organization with over 150,000 members and 10,000 Shihan and dominate the world? Not! None of the Saito's are actively teaching and they collect no revenue from the art so what's thier motivation? They merely want the art to continue...that's all.

Don you also have NEVER answered this question. What did Hatsumi say to you personally, since you have placed yourself in the position as his internet mouthpiece because he does not own a computer and is not registered on this board, when you asked him about Phelps's visit with him? Or did you even ask. I as well as many other would like to know. Actually Hatsumi is probably the only person, with the exception of those who were with him during the Phelps visit, that actually witnessed this art.


Did I say it was invented in 1728? no I did not. I said I found a book listing it as part of it's title that has been dated to 1728. How long it had been in use before that I do not know. And (chuckle) did you check ALL the dictionaries, even those only in Japanese?

I checked several J2E dictionaries available to me. The oldest one had over 2000 pages. Why did you?

Everyone, this has all been discussed to death. The only one who keeps bringing it up is Don. Rather than refer questions about the art to Saito people he starts this all over again. We do not talk about the discrepancies that have been found in the BJK. I am the only one who brings that up but only as reminders for Don. On the contrary. We even tell people who inquire into our art who are outside our school areas (other cities and Sates. etc) to seek out the Bujinkan and Genbukan. So we do not have any animosity toward them. As it is this topic isn't even allowed on ebudo because nothing was resolved. I will say this. Mark Saito Jr. is actively working on his family's geneology and is planning a trip to Japan to do research. What he brings back will be the official word on the matter.

[Don Roley]

Don you know the story about the invitation. You have her name and she is referenced on the TFAM website as well. Again you are not following through with you comments. You say you will ask but you never do. Same old rhetoric. :idunno:

The invitation never happened as you say it did. Provide proof that it did please. Hatsumi did not know who Phelps was when he was asked about it by one of my friends. (He beat me to it and I do not see a reason to repeat the question.) So provide some proof to your claim. Oops, rather, let us see Phelps himself try to state the story and provide proof. I have seen the whole thing of a "master" sits back while an underling tells lies and when the lies are exposed he steps forward and says that he never said the things that he was supposed to and it was all a mistake of his underling. Now we see Phelps not give a name or give his account of how things happend. And no proof of course.


There are a number of logical reasons why there is no documentation available in Japan.

Yes, Mark Saito sr made it all up is the easiest and most logical one. Either that or we start believing things that sound like Illuminati conspiracy theories. Ever hear of the Nagao ryu? Civilian art, not samurai, that existed during the pre-Meiji era. It has WRITTEN records and what it says does not contridict known historical facts like the Saito ryu does. Go and get a copy of Serge Mol's book on classical Japanese arts and you will see that the peasent class in Japan did indeed have the ability to produce some sort of records and they were not secret arts for fear of being eliminated like you try to present the story.

Let us face facts, there is no more substance to the story of Mark Saito sr than there is for Frank Dux, Ashida Kim or other well known frauds. You have the same lack of proof, the same discrpencies in your story and use the same tactics and excuses. So, you should not be surprised when you are treated like them. If you don't like it, then show some proof and quit trying to get people to accept you until you do.

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Honestly, having nothing to do with Ninjutsu... I find it painstakenly hard to grasp the idea of sooo many Ryuha existing in the Feudal Era of Japan, and only so few surviving till this day. Then again, I don't have much knwledge of this subject. Ignorance is bliss?... :idunno:



:asian:
THuNdeR_FoOT

[Cryozombie]

Everyone, this has all been discussed to death. The only one who keeps bringing it up is Don.

Actually, I belive IHAB brought the argument back up.

And I am no expert on the subject, but I do find the lack of evidence astounding... I can accept that the "Peasant Farmers" who created this art couldnt or wouldnt write it down...

But I have a hard time with some of the facts as presented...

Like the fact that No examples of the "Tengu Sword" exist outside of the Saito clan, but if the art is that old, SOMEWHERE there have to be ancient examples of the blades.

Also the fact that They call it Ninjitsu (and I dont care about the spelling) but state very plainly it is not... That would be like me creating something like, I dont know, A Pocket Knife for example, and calling it "A Fully Automatic Assult Rifle" by taking the name of somthing illegal in the country of origin and calling something that isnt even a rifle a rifle... Why would you do that?

I still say the entire thing sounds like my "Viking" art from norway.

[Don Roley]

Honestly, having nothing to do with Ninjutsu... I find it painstakenly hard to grasp the idea of sooo many Ryuha existing in the Feudal Era of Japan, and only so few surviving till this day.

There was not all that many ninjutsu ryuha. There was only about a hundred thoughout history.

And the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten starts listing schools on page 9 and goes on to page 922 with about eight schools per page. There is nowhere near that many schools being practiced now.

There was a huge dying off of classical schools once Japan entered the modern age. There just was no more need for them. There was no conspiracy or attempt to stamp them out. It was just a case of them being about as relevent to most modern Japanese as a butter churn is for us.

[Karasu Tengu]

Originally Posted by Karasu Tengu
Don you know the story about the invitation. You have her name and she is referenced on the TFAM website as well. Again you are not following through with you comments. You say you will ask but you never do. Same old rhetoric.


The invitation never happened as you say it did. Provide proof that it did please. Hatsumi did not know who Phelps was when he was asked about it by one of my friends.

Lets see.. I saw and read the email invitation.
I tasked you to ask Hatsumi over a year ago and you never came through on that. Now you say "a friend" has "asked" but not you. You seem to only do what is convienient to your argument Don. Too many people without names or ways to contact them to verify your stories. When ever anyone questions you on this you come back with "its not about us its about you".
You have not traveled to Fukushima to even attempt to verify anything.
You have never attempted to witness any of our techniques and provided no proof by anyone who says they have. Including Mr. Aniinger (sp). If he has no documentation on his experience (i.e. pictures) then why should I believe it took place. Because he or you say so. Hardly.

You keep refering to Classic Japanese Arts and Ryu. I've answered this question already. I am sure one can find a good number of family techniques covering various occupations (farming, carving, fish hook construction. etc) not listed in established historical records written by the ruling class.

Though you have no reason to believe me, and I don't hold that against you because I do understand your position. I would love to get ahold of records of the art or even another family member in Japan. I believe I stated Mark Saito Jr. is working on this.
I do have two students, on who's parents are Japanese (1st generation immigrant), and another who's Grandmother is Japanese and also an immigrant who have seen what we do and have no questions about it not being of Japanese origin. So basically until the Mark Saito Jr. publishes his findings this debate of authentisity will continue. Or you can come by the schools and see for yourself.

If anyone wants to wade through the 15 pages of the original ebudo thread click the link. e-budo Saito Thread (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15043&highlight=Saito+)

[Don Roley]

Lets see.. I saw and read the email invitation.
I tasked you to ask Hatsumi over a year ago and you never came through on that. Now you say "a friend" has "asked" but not you. You seem to only do what is convienient to your argument Don. Too many people without names or ways to contact them to verify your stories. When ever anyone questions you on this you come back with "its not about us its about you".[/URL]


Excuse me, still waiting on the name of the person who supposably invited Phelps. You say it happened and that Hatsumi and Phelps had a discussion, it is up to you to prove it. So far, nothing. I have no reason to aks, sicne I trust my friend more than you and the burdon of proof is on you. Actually, Phelps is not saying that he was invited, so how can you say it happened? Let us see hm give his version of events and the name.


You have not traveled to Fukushima to even attempt to verify anything.[/URL]


Jesus, are you seriously suggesting I knock on every door in an entire prefecture and ask people if they know anything about a cheesy ninja group?

And I have asked for something in Japan that I can go and look for myself, but you can't give it to me. But you expect me to run all over an entire prefecture to try to find somethign that is YOUR responsibility to back up.


You have never attempted to witness any of our techniques and provided no proof by anyone who says they have. Including Mr. Aniinger (sp). If he has no documentation on his experience (i.e. pictures) then why should I believe it took place. Because he or you say so. Hardly.[/URL]

The name is Angier, and if you will not beleive the drubbing he gave Saito happened just because he says so and it was witnessed by others, then why should we believe you when you say that "XXX can verify that the Saitos were training as children, hmmm?


You keep refering to Classic Japanese Arts and Ryu. I've answered this question already. I am sure one can find a good number of family techniques covering various occupations (farming, carving, fish hook construction. etc) not listed in established historical records written by the ruling class.[/URL]

So there is no mention of fishing AT ALL in records in Japan. Because there is no mention at all of the Saito ryu or its story in any record in Japan. My friends here can tellyouu what their relatives were doing five generations back in some cases. You can't provide proof for anything prior to rock music like Frank Dux and Ashida Kim.


I do have two students, on who's parents are Japanese (1st generation immigrant), and another who's Grandmother is Japanese and also an immigrant who have seen what we do and have no questions about it not being of Japanese origin. So basically until the Mark Saito Jr. publishes his findings this debate of authentisity will continue. Or you can come by the schools and see for yourself.[/URL]

Oh man, and a person whose grandmother is Japanese is an expert on what is and is not a Japanese martial art? Most Japanese today know no more about what is a pre-meiji era martial art than the typical American can tell you the difference between Apache and Cherokee face paint.

You are really getting desperate.

[Ninway J]

Don, or anyone else that knows Japanese language,

I have a language question. I've taken japanese language for 2 1/2 years. Don, I know you say you live in Japan, so you probably know more than me. Wouldn't it be possible for shorinjin to mean "shaolin person", since nihonjin means "japanese person" and amerikajin means "american person?" Or is the "-jin" only used properly in the context of country names?

Also, I was taught, by my sensei, that ninjitsu means "the study of man." I already know about the discrepancies regarding "-jitsu" and "-jutsu." However, it makes sense to me. But is this incorrect? Or would it depend on which kanji were used?

[Don Roley]

I have a language question. I've taken japanese language for 2 1/2 years. Don, I know you say you live in Japan, so you probably know more than me. Wouldn't it be possible for shorinjin to mean "shaolin person", since nihonjin means "japanese person" and amerikajin means "american person?" Or is the "-jin" only used properly in the context of country names?

It is really complicated. So why don't you ask your teacher (native speaker I assume) why not. Be prepared for some mirth on their part when you try to use the phrase. All the native speakers I have shared this with (junior high school teachers for the most part) almost fall out of their seats in laughter is is sooooo bad. Essentially it runs down to the fact that peasents that can not read would not be using the onyomi. That is one reason, but not the only one. It is not a matter of dialect or anything else anymore than "more gooder" is in English.


Also, I was taught, by my sensei, that ninjitsu means "the study of man." I already know about the discrepancies regarding "-jitsu" and "-jutsu." However, it makes sense to me. But is this incorrect? Or would it depend on which kanji were used?

How in heck are we supposed to believe this explination when Phelps runs around with a belt that uses the same kanji as the arts that call themselves 'ninjutsu' in Japan. Mark Saito sr can not read or write Japanese by his own admision so we can count this out as a desperate attempt to cover up a mistake. You would have to make one heck of a stretch to believe this definition. Strange that it would so closely mirror the term used in the west to refer to ninja without having any relation to theterms they use.

[Ninway J]

It is really complicated. So why don't you ask your teacher (native speaker I assume) why not. Be prepared for some mirth on their part when you try to use the phrase. All the native speakers I have shared this with (junior high school teachers for the most part) almost fall out of their seats in laughter is is sooooo bad. Essentially it runs down to the fact that peasents that can not read would not be using the onyomi. That is one reason, but not the only one. It is not a matter of dialect or anything else anymore than "more gooder" is in English.



How in heck are we supposed to believe this explination when Phelps runs around with a belt that uses the same kanji as the arts that call themselves 'ninjutsu' in Japan. Mark Saito sr can not read or write Japanese by his own admision so we can count this out as a desperate attempt to cover up a mistake. You would have to make one heck of a stretch to believe this definition. Strange that it would so closely mirror the term used in the west to refer to ninja without having any relation to theterms they use.

I'd love to ask my teachers (both native speakers), but it's been years since I've seen them. I'll try asking someone else, and I'll try to post here with the results.

Yeah, I cannot really say why Kawika sensei would use that kanji, that is, if it is incorrect. If "ninjitsu" does mean "the study of man", then it would seem to be incorrect, because there isn't the kanji for "man" or "person" in there.

From what I know about the ninja arts, I can truthfully say that our art is not the art of ninja, except for probably some taijutsu. Our art is more like "japanese kung fu"...at least how my sensei taught it.

A few years before Kawika sensei wrote his article, my instructor, Ishigo sensei, did say that nobody knew the kanji used for "ninjitsu"...not even the Saitos. So I'd probably go as far to say that the kanji wasn't "known" until around the time Kawika sensei wrote his article.

I'm not putting Kawika sensei down. I just want to make a point that not everyone in Saito ninjitsu was in accord over certain issues about the art at that time, or even nowdays.

[rutherford]

Lets have a moment of silence for this thread too. There was no reason to bring it up a year after the last post.

[Ka'alako]

Lets have a moment of silence for this thread too. There was no reason to bring it up a year after the last post.
If you don't think Uncle Davids' passing was a good enough reason, I pity you.

[Cryozombie]

Ka'alako,

I think that a thread about his Passing in the Hall of Rememberance would be a better place for it. Would you like me to move this there?

Or Perhaps you could post about him in there, a brief note about who he was...

[Ka'alako]

Ka'alako,

I think that a thread about his Passing in the Hall of Rememberance would be a better place for it. Would you like me to move this there?

Or Perhaps you could post about him in there, a brief note about who he was...
That would be great. Thank you for the offer.

[Cryozombie]

I split the initial Post about his passing into the Hall of Rememberance.

I did see afterwords that Mr. Bishop also posted about that In there.

:asian:

[Shinkengata]

Richard Price is my one big success in advising people away from frauds. Most of the time, people have invested too much time in training and do not want to admit they were stupid enough to follow an incompetent con-man. Richard was the one guy who had reached instructor status but was not bound by his ego and made the break. Today he is much better than he ever could have been under the Fuma ryu guys.

I'm another Don Roley Success story. :ultracool

[Saito Ninjitsu Kid]

Shannon Phelps Validity and the arts validity is proven by Uncle David Nueva. However due to his passing you can ask his family of Shannon Phelps Validity.
Also hatsumi sensei refers to Shannon as kawika phelps

[Kizaru]

Shannon Phelps Validity and the arts validity is proven by Uncle David Nueva. Okay. Can it be proven by "Saito Ninjitsu Kid"?


However due to his passing you can ask his family of Shannon Phelps Validity.I am sorry to hear of his passing.


Also hatsumi sensei refers to Shannon as kawika phelps

Hatsumi did not know who Phelps was when he was asked about it by one of my friends. (He beat me to it and I do not see a reason to repeat the question.) So provide some proof to your claim.
That's a difficult fact to argue with. Tell you what. If you send me an address (prefecture, city, block and street number must be included), or better yet, a phone number of someone here in Japan who can verify the validity of Saito ryu Ninjutsu, I'll confirm it myself. If the ryu is too secret to post that information on the net, you can send it to me by private message (PM). If the ryu is too secret to give out that information at all, then I question the validity of the ryu itself (how would a non Japanese find their way into such a group? Why would someone from such a group admit the group existed on the internet? Why would someone from such a secret group violate their code of secrecy and come out on the internet admiting that not only the group exists, but that they are also part of it?)

I look forward to your response.

[Saito Ninjitsu Kid]

http://tfam.com/headmaster/Hatsumi&Phelps.jpg

i believe this is a picture os Phelps and Hatsumi

[Dale Seago]

Which is supposed to prove what?

Thousands of people have gotten their pictures taken with Hatsumi sensei over the years. Out of most of those photos, he would have no idea who the individuals were if you showed them to him.

[Don Roley]

Tell you what. If you send me an address (prefecture, city, block and street number must be included), or better yet, a phone number of someone here in Japan who can verify the validity of Saito ryu Ninjutsu, I'll confirm it myself. If the ryu is too secret to post that information on the net, you can send it to me by private message (PM). If the ryu is too secret to give out that information at all, then I question the validity of the ryu itself (how would a non Japanese find their way into such a group? Why would someone from such a group admit the group existed on the internet? Why would someone from such a secret group violate their code of secrecy and come out on the internet admiting that not only the group exists, but that they are also part of it?)

I look forward to your response.


:roflmao:

You have learned well, my young apprentice. Soon we will initiate our plan and bring down the republic. :duel:

Seriously, Kizaru is hitting the nail right on the head.

And to add to what Dale said, not only is a photo of Hatsumi and Phelps not any sort of proof, but the idea that someone would try to use it as such hightens the impression that the group is not honest about what they do.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Which is the reason there is only one picture of me and Hatsumi sensei, in which I'm standing with my arms crossed...:ninja:

[redmongoose]

hey I would really appreciate it if you would get in touch with me about Shorinjin-ryu ninjutsu. I would really like to know what you know, I actually have been trying to gather as much info about this as I can, and I think you would be a great start.

[eyebeams]

What? On IAIDO-L archives, Karl Friday passed on a frank admission from Saito Sr. that the Ninj*tsu element was an invention. Friday's theories about the technical origins of it are pretty sound. As for Phelps, his CMA and military backgrounds are legitimate.

[Don Roley]

What? On IAIDO-L archives, Karl Friday passed on a frank admission from Saito Sr. that the Ninj*tsu element was an invention.

Oh? I am not a member so this is news to me. So he said that the story of him being taught by some mysterious member of the family in the ancient art of Saito ryu was a lie?

Do you still have the passage and can you post it here?

[eyebeams]

Oh? I am not a member so this is news to me. So he said that the story of him being taught by some mysterious member of the family in the ancient art of Saito ryu was a lie?

Do you still have the passage and can you post it here?

http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0004&L=iaido-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=17829

"
I met Mark Saito about 15 years ago, when I was a grad student in
California. He's a very impressive guy and a clearly talented martial
artist. At the time, he told me that he used the name "ninjitsu" only as a
kind of marketing tool (this was the height of the Stephen Hayes-led ninja
boom), but that the art he taught had nothing to do with ninja; it was just
a defensive art for Japanese peasants. This is somewhat different from
what the web page now claims."

[Don Roley]

http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0004&L=iaido-l&T=0&F=&S=&P=17829

"
I met Mark Saito about 15 years ago, when I was a grad student in
California. He's a very impressive guy and a clearly talented martial
artist. At the time, he told me that he used the name "ninjitsu" only as a
kind of marketing tool (this was the height of the Stephen Hayes-led ninja
boom), but that the art he taught had nothing to do with ninja; it was just
a defensive art for Japanese peasants. This is somewhat different from
what the web page now claims."

Well, if you follow the link it seems that not only is the school not ninjutsu, but the name and such is bogus. It is kind of what a lot of us have been saying for a long time. This art was put together in the 20th century. He does not seem to have been taught a family art. He instead took a little of this, a little of that and knowingly lied about where it came from. Ninjutsu sold and so he made up a story about it. Not someone I would trust or learn with even if I had not heard about the incident between him and Donn Angier.

[Brian R. VanCise]

It is amazing to me why someone would want to put the title Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu on an art they have created. Particularly when they have no ties to Japan or to Budo Taijutsu. (it can only come back to haunt them in the future) Simply amazing. Maybe I am
just dense regarding this issue.

[shinobi_ashton]

I agree with brian, it is pointless to say your a "master" of an art you know nothing about by demonstrating wushu or karate and calling it ninjutsu.

[TheGooch]

It's amazing how many people attack other styles, just because "proof" isn't provided as to the history. The fact is, no one owes anyone else an explanation on history. Many of you talked trash about Saito but I didn't read one post from someone who dared to meet with him and test his skill. Even your beloved Hatsumi has made many dubious claims, disputed by other so-called "masters", yet you would bow to his nutsack at the drop of a hat. The shameless and assinine attacks against Saito reveal nothing but petty jealousy and insecurity.

[kaizasosei]

perhaps you are right about some of the 'attacks' you mention. however, i find that you too are quite rude.

ok, so there is a dispute. so how can it be settled?
use your brain. either try to establish proof by showing something actualy worthwhile. if you would care to see how much superficial as well as excellent socalled ninjutsu practices there are out there, you would begin to realize the boring and irrelevant nature of the information you share..nothing new really. done that. been there

if it's so great then why is everyone less than convinced. don't think that it's because you are a fake...that's not it. it's because the information you give is practically ****ing insignificant. mechakuchatsumaranzouu!! in japanese it's plain boring. so if you come up with something better, i'm sure you will find many open minds.
yeah i have a tengu sword too. only it's tentimes the size of yours. and unless you can throw that dinky thing-(in which case you'd stand one single very slim chance), the very sight of my blade would cause you to bow.

why doesn't somebody organize some competitions between the various schools. fake and real alike. then you can put your money where your mouth is, you dumbass -in your own words-'keyboard warrior'.





j

[Brian R. VanCise]

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[kaizasosei]

ok, sorry for my childish rudeness.

just wanted to add. as far as i know, it's called shorinji not shorinjin.
ji meaning temple-like in japan there is an art called shorinji kempo.

少林寺

shorinjin sounds no right. like sho ninjin or no rinjin.

[johnny5]

Hello everyone! I'm new here and am located in San Diego and was curious about this art as well, as I happened upon the TAFM.com website while searching for a dojo in the area. Don't know if it applies or is legit, just thought I'd throw it out there.

Shorinjin Ryu Saito Koga Ninjutsu; a Yamabushi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamabushi) based system, meaning it has a strong tie to the Chinese based Lin Qui (The Lin Kuei of Mortal Kombat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Kombat) are based on this clan), which is why there are a lot of Chinese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China) concepts in the art. This art is currently taught by Shannon Kawika Phelps.

It is listed under the Kōga-ryū article in Wikipedia

[Obi Wan Shinobi]

Alrighty then........

[Kreth]

Shorinjin Ryu Saito Koga Ninjutsu; a Yamabushi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamabushi) based system, meaning it has a strong tie to the Chinese based Lin Qui (The Lin Kuei of Mortal Kombat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Kombat) are based on this clan),
The fact that they reference a video game should be a red flag. Phelps' ninjutsu is not legit and has been discussed here previously.

[Obi Wan Shinobi]

Well according to their website they claim to most almost all of the different Japanese martial arts along with something they refer to as "Bloodline Ninjitsu" makes you wonder though....if I'm not in the bloodline then why would they teach it to outsiders and still refer to it as "Bloodline" I guess blood isn't thicker than water.....LOL I'm sorry I just had to throw that in there.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Dear Johnny5

From the accounts I have read regarding Yamabushi they do not practice Ninjutsu. Though they are skilled in the usage of weapons which can be seen in Kagura note worthy the Dake school I doubt it has much to do with Ninjutsu.

I am unsure what you mean by Chinese concepts because Shugendo does use Onmyodo into the mixture but that comes from Taoist sects.

Also as pointed out already Shorinjin is incorrect or sounds strange.
And I as far as I know there is no connection between Shaolin and the Shugendo sects of Japan.

If Saito can prove its claim with scrolls and a source that can be verified from Japan than maybe there is something. But through out this thread There has been no proof and in fact proof that shows it is not legit lol.

[Obi Wan Shinobi]

Well according to their website they claim that their art was made by the "peasant" class and therefore they didn't keep scrolls or records of the art. So I guess it boils down to the individual person if they are wiling to committ years of training to this style.

[SageGhost83]

Whoa! This thread is *still* going!? Me gods, now I see why Don Roley cancelled his account :roflmao:. Ok, joking aside, I don't think that Shorinji Saito-ryu Ninjitsu is an actual Japanese Bujutsu that can be traced back to feudal Japan. I think that perhaps it is a modern, hybrid eclectic system that was inspired by Ninjutsu...Or by Ninjers :lfao:(okay, that was the last joke, seriously). I am not going to bash it and say that it is crap, if it works for you then by all means go ahead. However, be mindful that it is not connected to the authentic traditions of the Shinobi-no-mono clans of feudal Japan unless you can produce, at the very least, old densho or makimono that prove otherwise.

[Obi Wan Shinobi]

Whoa! This thread is *still* going!? Me gods, now I see why Don Roley cancelled his account :roflmao:. Ok, joking aside, I don't think that Shorinji Saito-ryu Ninjitsu is an actual Japanese Bujutsu that can be traced back to feudal Japan. I think that perhaps it is a modern, hybrid eclectic system that was inspired by Ninjutsu...Or by Ninjers :lfao:(okay, that was the last joke, seriously). I am not going to bash it and say that it is crap, if it works for you then by all means go ahead. However, be mindful that it is not connected to the authentic traditions of the Shinobi-no-mono clans of feudal Japan unless you can produce, at the very least, old densho or makimono that prove otherwise.

Well put SageGhost I couldn't agree with you more. :asian: