There is also a Shorinjin Saito-Ryu Ninjitsu. Note that they use "-jItsu" rather than the more common "-jUtsu". They also implement a rather odd sword, which they call the 'Tengu sword', where the sword is 'backwards' from a typical katana or ninja-to. To be more specific: from outward (sheathed) appearance, the swords seems to be your typical sheathed blade. However, What is normally the scabbard (saya) on a normal sword is actually the long hilt/handle of the Tengu sword. The short blade (maybe a little longer than a tanto) is sheathed in what appears to be a normal sword's handle. The Journal of Asian Martial Arts ran an article by a Rev. Shannon Phelps which had pictures of the sword, as well as techinques of the system. If anyone is interested, I can try to dig up the volume and number of that particular issue.

Cthulhu

Whoops, need to correct on error:

The system I was speaking of is actually called Shorinjin-ryu Saito Ninjitsu. The article is in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 5, Number 4, 1996.

Cthulhu

Cthulhu,

Saito ryu NinjItsu. Do wonders never cease..

The sword you are speaking of doesn't come from Saito ryu. Nor is Saito ryu a legitimate school of Japanese martial arts in any way, shape or form.

The sword that Saito ryu calls "The Tengu Sword" *chuckle* is from the Togakure ryu. This is what in history was referred to as a shinobi-to. It's blade is 21 inches (very short for a katana), yet the tsuka and typical size (13-15 inches). This gave the opponent the idea that a full length katana was being used.

In situations where batto was used, the opponent could reach over to draw their sword. The shinobi-to, being so short, simply involved a flip of the wrist to draw and set the blade against an opponent's drawing arm. As the opponent drew their blade, they would cut themselves from the motion.

:soapbox:

(suggestion: have a smiley that is a dog barking :D)

PS - No sword of traditional Ninpo was ever straight

Hey guys,

Jay you are correct but I think you and cthulu are discussing different things. The "tengu sword" is not Shannon Phelps name for the ninjato. It is an entirely different animal, likely a product of Phelps' overactive imagination. This came up recently on another board and a friend of mine (who is also in San Diego) answered some questions about the weapon in question. I am attaching his comments on the subject below.

They have a special ninja sword - about 3 feet of handle and about 12 inches of knife. It is a spinning hanbo of death... or something like that. They spin, whirl and twrill it. Very secret stuff... I never got in on the goods. For those in tropical areas... it looks **EXACTLY** like a pineapple knife... only it has to be different because it is the Tengu Sword. You can see it in the logo on his front page. The handle is longer (but that is the secret part of it - I think). Or maybe the secret is just how fast you can draw that thing...

And I would like to clarify (for the non-ninpo types on the board) that while I cannot vouch for the effectiveness or non-effectiveness of what Mr. Phelps is teaching, I can say... it is not ... I say again... NOT ninpo, ninjutsu, etc.

ps. Jay did you really call me a bully over at kutaki...? :p :D

Well, I'm not speaking for the validity of the system, just tossing it out their for others to see. The fact that they spell in 'ninjitsu' rather than the correct 'ninjutsu' instantly separates it form the bujutsu.

Jay, Higuma is correct about the 'tengu' sword. It is not the ninja-to, but another bladed weapon entirely, where the blade is less than half the length of the handle. I believe Higuma's description was better than the one I offered.

Again, I'm not saying anything about the validity of the system. This is a board for sharing information, so I chose to toss this up on the forum because many probably have never even heard of the system before.

:cheers:

Cthulhu

Higuma,

haha...the whole lot of ye! :D

Hey guys,

Here is the link to a pic of Phelps' arsenal... including the "tengu sword".

http://www.fullautumnmoon.com/background/swords.jpg

Again, based on this photo alone, I have to say that what ever this guy is studying/teaching is not ninjutsu :nuke: . Sorry, cthulu, but I have this need to call a spade a spade... Just ask Jay. :shrug:

Yeah...what he said.

:D

Sigh. Again, I'm not making any claims as to what this Phelps is teaching. I believe I did mention that they make their own distinction from ninjutsu by intentionally spelling it ninjItsu.

In the Journal of Asian Martial Arts article, practically nothing Phelps demonstrated is similar to 'classical' ninjutsu. Again, I'm just tossing this up on the forum to share with others. I'm not claiming that this is 'authentic' ninjutsu.

Cthulhu

Cthulhu,

Understood...we aren't hammering a flush nail here. He was just agreeing with what I had said about them not being traditional.

Originally posted by Cthulhu
I believe I did mention that they make their own distinction from ninjutsu by intentionally spelling it ninjItsu.

How widely accepted is the notion that it should be -jutsu not -jitsu? I use the two variants more-or-less interchangeably. Is there an accepted standard for transliteration that insists on -jutsu rather than -jitsu?

I don't know of any 'official' standard, but it is generally accepted that the correct romanization is '-jutsu'. The pronounciation of the Japanese word is definitely a 'u' sound rather than an 'i'. However, BJJ systems usually use the '-jitsu' spelling, possibly to further distinguish themselves from Japanese jujutsu.

Also, every published work written by a qualified, and often degree holding, author has used the '-jutsu' spelling. This is also true of translated works and works written by people fluent in English and Japanese. The '-jitsu' probably originated as a corruption of the more correct spelling. I can see how some people may find it easier to use an 'i' sound rather than the 'u' sound.

Cthulhu

Roughly translated... jutsu = art or skill jitsu = truth

There are standards but they are not necessarily difinitive. The Japanese language is a bit undefined where romanization is concerned. The two kanji (jutsu and jitsu) are definitely not the same.

I haven't seen the kanji for the Saito-ryu ninjitsu, so I don't know if they intended to use the 'truth' character.

As for BJJ, I don't think I've ever seen that rendered in kanji.

Cthulhu

Yeah..that's pretty much it. 'jitsu' means "Truth"...which I shouldn't probably say, because every neo-ninja on the planet is going to say that their art means "Truth of Perserverance" :D

Example - Kyo jitsu - interchanging truth and falsehood

That said, jutsu means 'methods' or 'art of'.

I remember reading at one point about Don Angier sensei and his videos on 'Hojojitsu' and 'Kenjitsu'. Something along the lines of it being the original romanization. I wish I had more information on that and could remember half-assed what was said...but I thought it was pretty interesting.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
I remember reading at one point about Don Angier sensei and his videos on 'Hojojitsu' and 'Kenjitsu'. Something along the lines of it being the original romanization.

I suspect that there is something to that. Look at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0874070279/qid=1006710314/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/104-0730448-6126362
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0897501225/ref=pd_sr_ec_ir_b/104-0730448-6126362
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0804830274/ref=pd_sim_books/104-0730448-6126362

The last is certainly by someone who appears to know Japanese and English. I suspect that -jitsu was one of the earliest transliterations, perhaps along with -jutsu.

It's not clear to me that it's standardized yet; Amazon shows 19 hits for a search on jujitsu in Books and 8 hits for a search on jujutsu. There are also numerous hits for jiu-jitsu which I also think of as an older transliteration. No hits for bujitsu but 4 hits for bujutsu. Ninjitsu, 1 hit; ninjutsu, 48 hits.

It looks like -jutsu is the preferred style everywhere except possibly in jujitsu/jujutsu. It isn't just the Brazialian forms-- the -jitsu style seems popular in jujitsu.

Maybe it all comes down to simple personal preference then :) Unless the system is purposely trying to differentiate between the 'truth' or 'art' meaning, then I guess we can use whatever the heck we want :D

Cthulhu

Hey Guys, just to try to clarify. The sword in question is NOT a Shinobi To. Firstly, it is not pointed (no kissaki) the tip is rounded. Why? Because it is double edged, from Hibaki all around edge of blade. Thus, it can cut in both directions. Thus, it is not a Nagimaki either

Aloha,

You seem to know quite a bit about the Tengu sword. Have you studied Saito Ninjitsu?

Originally posted by higuma
Roughly translated... jutsu = art or skill jitsu = truth

There are standards but they are not necessarily difinitive. The Japanese language is a bit undefined where romanization is concerned. The two kanji (jutsu and jitsu) are definitely not the same.


Just to add to that:

Jitsu= actually, honestly, day (as in “honjitsu” meaning "this day”)

Perhaps since Phelps “claims” to be fluent in Japanese he can shed some light on to the “Saito” meaning of the word since my Jap/Eng dictionary doesn’t give any martial meanings for it.

Tatsukin, yes, I am a Student of Senseii Phelps. I have a Black Belt in the art. Been with him since 95', will stay till he throws me out.

Matt, martial meaning for Saito? Its the Family name.

PS- Hey Chris!

Originally posted by gozanryu

Matt, martial meaning for Saito? Its the Family name.
!

That was painfully obvious.

The question was what is the martial meaning of "NinjItsu"...........

Ahhh! So, I'm an idiot. There is a discussion of that very subject on the web site (TFAM.com)

Originally posted by arnisador
How widely accepted is the notion that it should be -jutsu not -jitsu? I use the two variants more-or-less interchangeably. Is there an accepted standard for transliteration that insists on -jutsu rather than -jitsu?

See, here's the thing that I think most folks understand, but even more folks seem to forget -

Japanese doesn't use English letters.

Japanese uses Kanji (Chinese characters, some in original form, some modified over time), Hiragana (for native Japanese words and phonetic descriptions of obscure kanji) and Katakana (used for "borrow words" and foreign names).

Romaji (a "borrow word" taken from "romanization") is the method by which Japanese phonetics are taken from their Kana form and placed into English letters. There are certain specific rules on the sounds each letter represents (e.g. "a" is "ah," "e" is "ay," "i" is "ee," "o" is "oh," and "u" is "oo"), and this dictates what consonant/vowel combination is used to represent the same Kana character...

The kanji for the word represented by some as "jutsu" and by others as "jitsu" is correctly pronounced by the Romaji "jutsu," since the pronunciation is more akin to "joo-tsoo" than the "jee-tsoo" implied by the "jItsu" spelling...

"Well," you may ask, "why are they used seemingly interchangeably by English speakers?"

Because English speaking people, most notably the Americans, are painfully and condescendingly mono-lingual, and often seem to think they can do whatever they like with foreign languages as long as it suits their needs.

Admittedly, earlier in the century, there was no established standard of Romanization for Chinese, Japanese, and other asian languages whose written language is nowhere even close to English. That led to Chinese being represented by the Wade-Giles method of Romanization that probably caused more harm than good... Pinyin is now the "authorized" and official method of Romanizing Chinese, and Romaji is the "authorized" and official method of Romanizing Japanese.

One further note on Romaji - because Japanese has some words with longer tonal stress on certain syllables, the intonation of which changes the word entirely, it is either represented with a dash above the vowel so elongated, or doubling the vowel (e.g. uncle is "ojii," or "oji" with a dash above the "i").

Note to Gozanryu - it is "sensei" with only one "i." Not sure what it means with an elongated "i" at the end, but I know it isn't the word for teacher...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Originally posted by gozanryu
Ahhh! So, I'm an idiot. There is a discussion of that very subject on the web site (TFAM.com)


Nobody called you an "idiot" so stop crying "foul".

You may want to read posts a little better in the future though.

I would argue that 'jujitsu' has been adopted as an American term. It's as incorrect as any other word in this mongrel language! To buttress my claim, I note that it's the preferred spelling in 2 of 3 dictionaries at dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jujitsu) and that a search for it at the BBC news web site (http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?scope=newsifs&tab=news&q=jujitsu) turns up four hits but a search for 'jujutsu' turns up none. Although it isn't the case right now, I've seen them use it as a metaphor--'verbal jujitsu' or 'strategic jujitsu' or some such thing that doesn't actually refer to the martial arts.

I'd say that it's a mistake that has stuck. You might as well argue that restaurant should be pronounced with a silent 't' because it's French, or that shop should be spelled shoppe. As a martial artist I try to use jujutsu unless I believe the art in question prefers jujitsu and I would encourage others to do the same but as an English word, jujitsu is accepted and, I emphasize, preferred. It's no longer a translation issue, any more than 'restaurant' and the like.

I see that jitsu is from from Middle Chinese zhwit, it says.

Originally posted by arnisador
I would argue that 'jujitsu' has been adopted as an American term.


Maybe, but you would think a school with lineage dating back 1,000 years to the "mother land" would know how to use the word properly..........."NinjItsu" is not a Japanese word.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Maybe, but you would think a school with lineage dating back 1,000 years to the "mother land" would know how to use the word properly..........."NinjItsu" is not a Japanese word.

No argument--someone translating a name now should presumably use -jutsu, and a particular art that's emphasizing its Japanese heritage probably should too. I'm only arguing that the particular term jujitsu is accepted as an American English term for a sport popular in the States, though it originated elsewhere, and as a term for using one's opponent's strengths against them in other settings ('verbal jujitsu' etc.).

Originally posted by arnisador
I'm only arguing that the particular term jujitsu is accepted as an American English term for a sport popular in the States,


I agree.........but it is only used in such a manner in the West.
Japanese would never pronounce the word that way.........which is why I find it odd that the "Saito Clan" would insist it was jItsu and not jutsu.

Arnisador -

Your point is well taken, and well explained. And while I would be hard pressed to disagree with the logic of your argument, I maintain that whether we have absorbed it into our mainstream language or not, as martial artists we speak with our own specialized language that draws from a multitude of foreign language sources... Medicine and Law make use of many Latin terms, but they are pronounced properly (most of the time), and when pronounced incorrectly, their incorrect use is typically... corrected!

Since I view MAists and the MA community in general as our own specialized "trade," I feel we have more of a responsibility to use the terms in their proper context, especially when we are claiming attachment to lineages from other countries who speak the language the terms are from... If someone created their own American NinjItsu, then fine - spell it how you like, even if it is wrong. The caveat of tagging "American" on the front kind of lets everyone know the terms will be used improperly. Whatever.

But if someone is trying to hook onto some form of legitimacy through connection to an art whose genesis and development stem from another country that speaks the language in question, then the language should be used properly or not at all...

Gambarimasu (spelled properly, I might add... :D )
:asian:

Originally posted by arnisador
No argument--someone translating a name now should presumably use -jutsu, and a particular art that's emphasizing its Japanese heritage probably should too. I'm only arguing that the particular term jujitsu is accepted as an American English term for a sport popular in the States, though it originated elsewhere, and as a term for using one's opponent's strengths against them in other settings ('verbal jujitsu' etc.).

From what I understand, the entire "i" vs. "u" debate stems from the adoption of the Japanese words post-WWII when the first Uh-Muh-Rih-Kans brought the terms back to the US...

They didn't know how to speak the language, certainly didn't know how to transliterate the language, and obviously didn't care either way...

It is pretty deeply rooted, and that upsets me even more... :angry:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I would definitely agree with Yiliquan1 that as martial artists we should strive for greater fidelity to the correct method and I do try to do so, except where it seems to me that a given art/org. prefers the other way (e.g. BJJ).

I am not crying "foul" I did not re-read the post correctly. That is why I refferred to MYSELF as an idiot. I am not that thin skinned. Sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by arnisador
I would definitely agree with Yiliquan1 that as martial artists we should strive for greater fidelity to the correct method and I do try to do so, except where it seems to me that a given art/org. prefers the other way (e.g. BJJ).

I would agree that if an art has a particular method of spelling their art's transliteration, then it can be honored, as long as they know why they spell it the way they do and it isn't out of blatant ignorance of the proper form...

On the Yiliquan association patches, we still have "Yiliquan" spelled "Yi Li Chuan," which was the way we spelled it under the old Wade-Giles method until we "knew better" and started instituting the Pinyin method... We know that "Yiliquan" is the proper transliteration, and we use that most of the time. In "internal communications" in the association, we allow either form to be used since we are all familiar with what is being discussed. Publicly, though, I know that at least I strive to adhere to Pinyin since I feel it is more efficient, more representative of the correct sounds, and more widely understood.

I guess all I want is for folks to know the difference and not to do things out of ignorance. If they make educated decisions, and still go against the grain, so be it. At least they would have a reason for doing so...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Here is our Sensei's (thanks for the spelling correction) response (partial) to the Jitsu-Jutsu issue as it applies to us. This is exerpted from the website. " Any spelling of any Japanese or Chinese word is but a best guess attempt on the part of linguists to pronounce Kanji through romanization. The Japanese themselves have accepted "Jitsu" for years without complaint. In fact, even they can barely tell the difference as it is spoken. Yet, there are distinctions, of course, and modern writers have directed our attention to these.

For the record, Saito himself uses the old spelling "Ninjitsu", feels no need to change it, and therefore, in respect to him, I wouldn't think of it. There is also the word "Jitsu" that in Japanese means "reality" or "actuality". Saito says that Ninjitsu is "the art of understanding human behavior". So "Nin", which can mean man and "Jitsu" meaning actuality, can mean "man in his actuality or reality" - (human behavior). We like that, so often times we will use this combination of Kanji to tell our story better. In any case, how we use our romanization is our business and we feel no need to accommodate you"

So, a pronunciation thing indeed.

Originally posted by gozanryu
For the record, Saito himself uses the old spelling "Ninjitsu", feels no need to change it, and therefore, in respect to him, I wouldn't think of it. There is also the word "Jitsu" that in Japanese means "reality" or "actuality". Saito says that Ninjitsu is "the art of understanding human behavior". So "Nin", which can mean man and "Jitsu" meaning actuality, can mean "man in his actuality or reality" - (human behavior). We like that, so often times we will use this combination of Kanji to tell our story better. In any case, how we use our romanization is our business and we feel no need to accommodate you"

Taken from the web site,

It is fascinating to keep in mind that Saito is, as I said, first-generation American-born in the Hawaiian Islands. He has never lived in Japan and was raised by the Hawaiian side of his family rather than by the Japanese. Therefore, he had little contact with his Japanese heritage other than through his "grandpa," whom he knew to be the grand master of the family art (Grandpa emigrated to Hawaii circa 1903). Grandpa taught "Mark San" in secret--even the rest of the family was unaware. Mr. Saito did no learn to read ore speak Japanese as a child, so we cannot be sure of the original kanji for "ninjitsu" used by the Saito clan.

Just for the record. There has been no evidence presented to the public that The art that is taught as Saito-ryu ninjitsu ever existed before mark Saito sr suddenly announced that he was a ninja master. Before that, he was teaching other arts and not claiming to be involved with ninjitsu. There are no references that I can find in Japanese sources, and the Saito ryu folks can not seem to point me to any. I have seen nothing outside of what basically comes down to Mark Saito's word that he recieved the training he claims. Phelps came on Martialtalk to chastise people about talking to him, but when asked direct questions he seems to have stopped posting for himself and retreated behind a firewall of students. Both Wayne Muromoto and Karl Friday have seen practicioners of the art and stated their opinion that the art is not Japanese in origin, but rather created by Mark Saito sr.

If the people from the Saito ryu can provide independently verifiable proof that the art existed prior to Mark Saito sr's public announcement that he was a ninja master, and that the art really did exist in Japan, I would be very pleasently surprised. But don't hold your breath. Already they have made hundreds of posts about the subject of ninjutsu but failed to back up what they say any amount of proof that their art predates the disco fad.

Don, I will say 1st that , as usual, I see your point. Now I will say this. It is interesting to see your choice of words. Our Sensei is retreating behind a firewall of students? Hmm, it seems to me the Hatsumi has often been attacked on boards as far as legitamacy etc. He has never posted. Does that mean that he has "retreated" or that he is a "coward". I will ask you on this board the same thing I have asked you on others. You should have an answer now. WHen you went and talked to your boss, Hatsumi about Phelps, Saito et al, what did he have to say? After all this time, your still on the Ninja angle. There is no Takamatsuden claim. I do not think that Phelps has incurred any Giri to you to be "Verified" at all. I think we do what we do, and you do what you do. However, unlike you, we welcome you to our house anytime. We enjoy what we do. We do not labor over a keyboard trying to discredit everyone we meet. ANY of you are ALWAYS welcome at our house. And before you start typing some eloquent re-buttal, stop. Its OK, we know your position. If your ever in town, stop by and visit. Quit being so darn disrespectful. The world does not revolve around Takamatsuden tradition. Its Martial Arts Man! Relax. We are not out to steal your thunder.

I recall reading an article written by a Saito-ryu teacher of some capacity quite some time ago (I have no personal experience with the art or any of its practitioners myself). The person claimed that the 'Ninjitsu' taught in the Saito-ryu has nothing to do with the ninja clans of Iga and Koga in ancient Japan (and thus is not 'ninjutsu' or 'ninjitsu' as most people associate the word with). The writer apparently was trying to make this claim of moral superiority of the Saito-ryu over those 'evil ninja'. This individual then went on to imply the Takamatsu-den (specifically, the Bujinkan) methods to be 'assassination' arts. I found that most amusing.

I think it's a little odd, though.... if what has been said is true, then the 'Ninjitsu' of the Saito-ryu uses different kanji for both 'nin' and 'jutsu' than is commonly associated with the words. So...... why associate it with the ninjutsu ryuha at all???

Originally posted by gozanryu
Now I will say this. It is interesting to see your choice of words. Our Sensei is retreating behind a firewall of students? Hmm, it seems to me the Hatsumi has often been attacked on boards as far as legitamacy etc. He has never posted. Does that mean that he has "retreated" or that he is a "coward".

That seems a rather cheap shot considering that we all know that A, hatsumi does not speak or read English, B, he does not even own a computer and C, he has not registered at Martialarttalk.com. Phelps did and posted once. Now he does not seem to be able to answer questions directed at him. So yes, it looks extremely suspicious, and your comment about Hatsumi is also fairly off the mark.


Originally posted by gozanryu
I will ask you on this board the same thing I have asked you on others. You should have an answer now. WHen you went and talked to your boss, Hatsumi about Phelps, Saito et al, what did he have to say?

Basically, "who?" I did not ask the question myself.



Originally posted by gozanryu
After all this time, your still on the Ninja angle. There is no Takamatsuden claim.

So, why is this is the ninjutsu folder if you are somehow outside the area of ninjutsu? Just because you do not claim to come from the Takamatsu-den does not mean that you have a free ride. I would be pointing out the same things if you were claiming Koga ryu, etc.


Originally posted by gozanryu
I do not think that Phelps has incurred any Giri to you to be "Verified" at all. I think we do what we do, and you do what you do.

And I have no "giri" to accept what you say at face value, or be silent about the fact that you have no proof to back up your claims of Japanese origin and that many things what you say contrast with what it known about the subject.

Originally posted by gozanryu
However, unlike you, we welcome you to our house anytime. We enjoy what we do. We do not labor over a keyboard trying to discredit everyone we meet.

That sounds like a rather nasty comment. I have helped raise questions about the claims of many people, but you make me sound like some sort of obsesive, rather than a person who raises legitimate questions when faced with questionable claims. It is like you want to discredit me and attack me for pointing these things out. If you do not like it, please point to one peice of proof that I can check for myself. Until then, I will chime in when the subject comes up. I have no obligation to stay slinet when questions are asked.


Originally posted by gozanryu
ANY of you are ALWAYS welcome at our house. And before you start typing some eloquent re-buttal, stop. Its OK, we know your position.

This would be an excellent time for you to take your own advice. If you can provide proof to your claims, that would be wonderfull. However, comments like how we "labor over a keyboard trying to discredit everyone we meet." are just crass and not where I want this conversation to go.

Who cares? Practice what makes you happy.

I would also imagine if you asked Hatsumi about any of the mentioned groups, he would likely not know, nor do I doubt he would even care.

Does he really not own a computer!?!

*grin* He does not own a computer.

Since 1996, I find 51 hits on jujitsu and none on jujutsu at the NY Times.

Similarly, searching the LA Times (www.latimes.com) since 1985 gives 134 hits like this one:

COMMENTARY
U.S. Strengths Are Terrorist Opportunities
By BENJAMIN R. BARBER,
Benjamin R. Barber is the author of "Jihad vs. McWorld."


NEW YORK -- The tragic irony of Tuesday's day of terror is that America was humbled by its strengths, not its weaknesses. Adept practitioners of strategic jujitsu, the terrorists leveraged America's technological wizardry and democratic openness to the purposes of destruction

but none for jujutsu.

(OK, I'll stop now.)

Again, the issue of incorrect foreign language use rears its ugly head.

We appear to need to be reminded yet again that languages whose words are represented by pictographs cannot be adequately represented in non-pictogrpahic languages unless the phonetic of those pictographs is somehow transliterated into that other language.

Methods of transliteration must make use of the graphic representation of that language's specific sounds and tones to adequately transliterate the foreign language phonetics into an understandable format.

I have previously posted the vowel sounds used in Japanese, and the English letters used to represent those sounds. The correct and accepted method of using English letters with Japanese sounds is called Romaji, and it has certain rules for its proper use.

The word "nin" has a certain character (kanji) used to convey the meaning inherent in that word. The word "jutsu" has a certain character (kanji) used to convey the meaning inherent in that word. Further, the word "jitsu" has still yet another character (kanji) to convey its meaning, and so on.

So my question is, simply, which kanji are being used to write the word "ninjItsu?"

I went here (http://www.zhongwen.com) to do some research on the kanji in the transliterated words in question. The first kanji does not, in its Chinese meanings (or in the Japanese meanings from what I know), mean "man" as stated upthread. The character represents a blade in the heart and carries the meaning of endurance. The second kanji for that of "jutsu," represents proceeding down a road and carries the meaning of a path or method for doing something. The disputed kanji of "jitsu" is unknown to me in appearance or Chinese pronunciation, so I am unable at this time to research its specific implications. It strikes me, however, that given the predilection for 90% of people who claim to use Chinese or Japanese terms for their own meanings to get their meanings completely wrong, that the translation being cited as an alternate translation (i.e. "the art of understanding human behavior" as opposed to "the art of 'endurance'" of the Japanese ninja) is also fully erroneous and based on a lame defense for the use of incorrect transliteration...

It'd be so much easier to just identify what kanji are being used, and then use the correct transliteration rather than adhering to such a weak argument to support the misuse and misspelling in question.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Originally posted by arnisador
Since 1996, I find 51 hits on jujitsu and none on jujutsu at the NY Times.

Similarly, searching the LA Times (www.latimes.com) since 1985 gives 134 hits like this one:


but none for jujutsu.

(OK, I'll stop now.)


I guess both the LA Times and NY Times give the definitive pronunciation/Romanization for Japanese words………….now I can get rid off all my expensive Eng/Jap Dictionaries.

Don, at the risk of circularity. You make me LMAO! You, of all people, worried about nasty and off the mark comments! Ha! Have you somehow forgotten all the posts you have made that are "nasty". Would you like me to start cutting and pasting so that you can be reminded. You are so INCREDIBLY arrogant. Wow. "That seems a rather cheap shot considering that we all know that A, hatsumi does not speak or read English, B, he does not even own a computer and C, he has not registered at Martialarttalk.com. Phelps did and posted once. Now he does not seem to be able to answer questions directed at him. So yes, it looks extremely suspicious, and your comment about Hatsumi is also fairly off the mark"

How does this seem like a cheap shot? Because its YOUR Sensei. We ALL know how Hatsumis' credentials, lineage, and authenticity have been attacked, re-attacked, and scrutinized. We also ALL know that MANY in Japan laugh at him and view him has a fraud. That MANY think his claims are false, etc. etc. Why is he not on these boards defending himself? I know, because he doesnt have a computer. Hmm. Maybe its because he doesnt give a rat's @$$ what anybody thinks. Does that make him a coward? Does that mean he has retreated behind the skirts of his students? I dont think so.


"Basically, "who?" I did not ask the question myself"

my point. exactly Don. You are in Japan. You hold the highest ranking the Japanese Government gives in the language. (we know this because you often let us know) Why have you not, after all this, talked to the Boss? Hmmm, maybe your credibility is now in question. Maybe you are the one "retreating"





However, comments like how we "labor over a keyboard trying to discredit everyone we meet." are just crass and not where I want this conversation to go."




OK Don, lets compare and contrast.

"AFAIK, none of his other claims seem to pan out. CIA can not confirm his story because it is "too secret" according to them. (Well, if it was secret, why are they talking aboutit?) No one I trust has yet to say they can confirm the stories about Vietnam, Special Forces, CIA case officer, etc.

But what gets me about the pictures is that huge gong they have. Is that really a part of Asian MA practice? Maybe it is a Chinese thing. In some dojos in Japan I have seen Taiko drums, but I can't think of seeing a gong in a dojo. Is it maybe Okinawan, like the sais, nunchakus and such he uses?

I just get this weird thought in my head (I am probably dating myself) of some poor guy trying to show off his kata for the class, only to have to leave the stage after Jamie Farr gongs him."


Crass, did you say. Lets go back in the thread and see where we (Saitos) were brought into it.....



"Go to this site and click on the "photos" section. Go towards the bottom. Is this pretty much the type of behavior you are talking about? I live in Japan and have yet to see this type of behavior or so much Japanese Kitsch in a dojo as this!!!

BTW, this guy claims to teach a Japanese art that no one in Japan has heard of, uses Japanese terms that make native speakers giggle, claims to recive instruction from his teacher via dreams, etc, etc. "

Wow, isnt that intresting. YOU brought it up so that you could talk about it some more.

Crass huh.

Don, you are truly ridiculous sometimes. The disrespect you show people is truly incredible. I will say it again. You talk smack about people you really dont know any thing about and expect their respect for your opinion. In my opinion, I dont think you have learned anything about the TRUE ART in your entire MA career. Things like HUMILITY, RESPECT, KINDNESS, FIELTY. You PURPOSELY try to get a flame war going on this subject, then when you get one, EVERY BODY ELSE is "CRASS" You should take some advice from my departed Grandfather: " If you wake up and realize that everybody is an @$$ but you, you should look in a mirror"



__________________

Mr. Roley is neither arrogant nor "ridiculous," nor does the manner in which he conducts himself prompt any reasonable, rational observer to conclude such things.

You, on the other hand, are doing a very good job of painting yourself into a corner.

I know it can be really hard not to sometimes, but can we try to avoid the personal battles and stick to the issues at hand?

Some of the issues brought up by both parties are points worth pondering. Some of the comments made by both parties will get one or more members booted, or get yet another thread shut down...

I'm still waiting to hear answers to questions posed. I wait with an open mind (the opinion of others notwithstanding regarding the openness of my attitude) to see arguments supporting Saito-ryu as a legitimate ryu, or even to simply address the misuse of language (as addressed upthread).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Phil, I would completely agree with your statement if it had begun with "In my opinion" however, I do not think you have the "facts" on this subject nor are you the absolute authority whereas everyone else is "mistaken" I dont feel as if Im in a corner, I feel more like I have a differing opinion than Don. But, thank you for your opinion. I also checked around. Some people actually consider me "reasonable" and "rational"

Matt, your right.

Originally posted by gozanryu
Matt, your right.

Yeah, I know... :D

It ain't easy being me, being so right all the time, perfect in all that I do, extremely knowledgeable about things common and uncommon, not to mention darn good lookin' to boot, but somebody has to carry this burden! :lol:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I guess both the LA Times and NY Times give the definitive pronunciation/Romanization for Japanese words

No, I don't think that's it at all--I think in this one (possibly exceptional) case, an incorrect transliteration has been accepted as a correct English word. That is, jujutsu is the correct transliteration of the corresponding japanese term, but the phrase 'strategic jujitsu' is perfectly acceptable English because it uses the Englis term 'jujitsu' (adapted from a foreign term) and is not an attempt to transliterate a Japanese term into English.

If it's included in an English dictionary, it's English! It's no longer a transliteration. You might as well complain about calling the whole country Japan rather than some transliteration of Nippon.

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Originally posted by arnisador
No, I don't think that's it at all--I think in this one (possibly exceptional) case, an incorrect transliteration has been accepted as a correct English word. That is, jujutsu is the correct transliteration of the corresponding japanese term, but the phrase 'strategic jujitsu' is perfectly acceptable English because it uses the Englis term 'jujitsu' (adapted from a foreign term) and is not an attempt to transliterate a Japanese term into English.

If it's included in an English dictionary, it's English! It's no longer a transliteration. You might as well complain about calling the whole country Japan rather than some transliteration of Nippon.

I was being sarcastic in my post.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that an alleged Japanese MA with an alleged history of 1,000 years and a supposed direct descendant teaching the art calls it NinjItsu.

Red Flags come up..........

Ok, let us keep this respectfull towards other participents. I have not insulted anyone in this conversation, only made jokes like how I felt the gong in a dojo seemed more at home in the old "gong show" than anything I have seen in Japan. And I do feel that way...

And this conversation is not about Hatsumi or his claims. I get kind of tired of someone who is being questioned about their story throwing out that subject in the manner of what can be found at Phil's article on Internet Defnese Mechanisms.

POT AND KETTLE

Perhaps the first rule of verbal self-defense, in the absence of legitimate and logically grounded opinion, is to accuse the accuser. Cornered, the VS or VTG will be quick to point out that it is the critic(s) who display(s) the warning signs of martial arts fraudulence.



The fact is, Hatsumi can prove all of his claims of training under Takamatsu and others. If you ask him, he will be pleased to tell you about these things. He was known to be training in an art under Takamatsu long before ninjutsu was popular in Japan.

All of this can not be said of the still- living Mark Saito sr. We do not even know the name of the relative he claims taught him his art, nor do we have any sort of proof. All we can tell is that for years he taught another art before suddenly announcing that he was indeed a ninja master trained from childhood. This should set off red flags by itself. The fact that no one seems willing to go to him and ask the questions that might lead to proving his claims should set off red flags as well.

Again, I ask for some srot of proof that this art has ever been known in Japan. I also ask for some sort of independently verifiable proof that the person who introduced this art to America really had the training he claims. The opinion of people like Wayne Muromoto and others, as well as the discrepencies with things like language, all point to the conclusion that this art was made up by someone in America and given a false history.

Don, Who is Phil? I mean in this situation. Is he an absolute authority on human behavior, a Doctor perhaps? Or are you joking? You are referring to him as such. (no offense Phil, Im just kinda lost here)

I am not questioning Hatsumi, I am using it as an example. I am not accusing anyone of anything. If you really believe that you have been fair and balanced on this, I guess I'll fold. Incredible.

Originally posted by arnisador
No, I don't think that's it at all--I think in this one (possibly exceptional) case, an incorrect transliteration has been accepted as a correct English word. That is, jujutsu is the correct transliteration of the corresponding japanese term, but the phrase 'strategic jujitsu' is perfectly acceptable English because it uses the Englis term 'jujitsu' (adapted from a foreign term) and is not an attempt to transliterate a Japanese term into English.

If it's included in an English dictionary, it's English! It's no longer a transliteration. You might as well complain about calling the whole country Japan rather than some transliteration of Nippon.

I conceded to your argument. So long as the term is used within its English language context (i.e. not necessarily a martial art title, term nor description, but rather a description of intricate and complex maneuvering), then the spelling of "jujitsu" is fine.

But if the term in question is being used to describe a martial art of Japanese origin, more specifically one claiming ancient origin and ancestry from that country, then the proper spelling ought to be used. Failing to do so will inevitably draw undue and unwanted attention to the art...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I found this article online: http://www.tfam.com/background/saitoninjitsu.htm

In it, the author states:

"Due to none too careful transliteration, the art of the Ninja was originally written with the Americanized 'jitsu' rather than the more correct 'jutsu.' Mark Saito, Sr. had always used the term 'jitsu' and made no effort to change it to 'jutsu.' In fact, he remained adamant that his art was not the art of Ninjutsu: 'This is the art of Shorinjin-ryu Saito Ninjitsu--we are not Ninja! This art was granted to the Saito family by the Shorinjin and is highly revered; not for assassins.'"

And:

"But Mr. Saito never claims a relationship with the Iga or Koga clans. He is adamant that his is the 'magical art' and is the unique gift of the Shorinjin."

Apparently, the Saito-ryu actually holds 'ninjutsu' and their 'ninjitsu' to be two different arts.

This doesn't necessarily mean the Saito-ryu is historically authentic, but they do apparently differentiate themselves from the ninja ryuha.

Originally posted by heretic888
we are not Ninja! This art was granted to the Saito family by the Shorinjin and is highly revered; not for assassins.'"

I always KNEW I was just a low down assassin. Nothing more.

Originally posted by heretic888
He is adamant that his is the 'magical art' and is the unique gift of the Shorinjin.

What exactly is a "Magical" art? Is that Like Yellow Bamboo? Or David Copperfield-Ryu? Turning lead to gold? Or by magical does he mean like the way a child veiws the world type magical?

Also, my question goes back to this... because it should very easily be able to answer the questions of how authentic these claims are... IS/WAS there a type of Ninjutsu/Jitsu in japan prior to the "creation" of this in Hawaii that was NOT related to the Ninja? If so, and its not from the Iga/Koga region, What region were the Saito-ryu from, and can historical records of the dojo's be found? Even many of the "offshoots" of the traditional NinJUTSU from Iga and Koga which were nothing but secret ASSASSIN CULTS have written records in Japan, does the Saito-ryu? If the answers to both of those questions are YES, then I would have to say we can accept the claims made by the Saito-ryu, If not I would assume that at best we HAVE to be as skeptical as we would be If I came out today and Said "I am really the secret student of Bruce Lee, and he taught me in his attic and never told anyone becuse people were trying to kill off his art!" COULD it be possible? Sure! Is it likely to be true? Very doubtful.

I always KNEW I was just a low down assassin. Nothing more.

Seriously. Just watch me flip out and kill someone with my ninja sword. Without even thinking about it. Ninjer-style, you know? :rolleyes:

What exactly is a "Magical" art? Is that Like Yellow Bamboo? Or David Copperfield-Ryu? Turning lead to gold? Or by magical does he mean like the way a child veiws the world type magical?

They believe their art comes from Tengu, and is 'divine' or something like that.

Laterz.

Below is a brief history of our school. I know you have questions. I will do my best to answer them. What would you like to know?
Realize that I did not, like a salmon, run up the stream of this thread to extract all of your concerns. I simple offer myself as a source of information for you; if that is what you wish.

The Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu Academy was founded on April 4, 1966 in Redwood City, California. The Dojo was opened by Mark Saito, Sr. after receiving permission to teach outside of the family. The name of the school came from his grandfather, Hanshichi Saito.

HANSHICHI SAITO was born in Fukushimaken, Japan in 1886. He migrated to Hawaii in May 1907. He was the first in his family to leave Japan to live in Hawaii. He brought with him his wife and oldest son on this initial voyage. He returned to Japan in 1919 to get his daughter, Umeko “Mary” Saito, and bring her back to Hawaii that same year. He divorced his wife at the time and found another woman to marry; with her he then had another son named Tsurumatsu Saito. Hanshichi died in Aiea, Hawaii in January 1966.

UMEKO “MARY” SAITO was born in Fukushimaken in May 1907. She migrated to Hawaii in 1919 at the age of 12. While in Japan she learned from her family the Saito Ninjitsu art. Her first son was born on September 5, 1928: Mark Kahalepaiwi Vera Cruz Saito, Sr. On her son’s 4th birthday she took him to her father, Hanshichi Saito, to study and learn the family art. Umeko “Mary” Saito died in Palo Alto, California in 1986.

Aloha,

Chris

Very nice Chris,

But where is the proof that Mark Saito sr learned the art he claims he did from his family? I am talking about independently, verifiable proof. It would seem that all you posted should be predicated with the words, "according to what Mark Saito sr says."

Asstated, there is nothing in any Japanese source that I can find to back up wha tyou say. Can you point me in the direction of such a source? I am sure you were not witness to almost anything you wrote, can you give us some sources that we can check for ourselves?

After all the problems with the story so far, it just seems wise to check for ourselves. You say that Saito's grandfatehr gave him permission in 1966 to teach the art, and he died that same year. Can you give physically verifiable proof that the events happend as you say they did?

Again, there are problems with the Japanese used, the consistency of the story, the history is bizarre and people like Wayne Muromoto have said they believe the art was made up by Saito. based on all that, we would like to see some proof for oursleves.

Well, Don, I am not quite sure how to answer some of your questions. It seems to me that you would like to read about “the incredible Saito ninjas of Fukushima” somewhere. I will tell you; so would I. I don’t struggle with our history like you do though. I would love to go to Japan and find the village where it all started and see if there are any folks still practicing the art. I am quite sure, however, that it would not be called Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu, for a few reasons.

Imagine if you will, a man named Bob Jones. Bob has a son named Bobby. Bob is a blacksmith, best in the land; dare I say… a master. Now one day when little Bobby is about 4 years old Bob decides it is time his son learned the Family Art. What do you suppose he told his son… “Come here Bobby. It’s time you learned Angelic Style Jones Blacksmithing, our family art. Probably not. I believe it would be a bit more like, “Come here Bobby. It’s time you learned the family art.” Don’t you? And so on like that until one day, one of the Jones’ decided to teach their style of Blacksmithing outside of the family.

It seems to me there are certain things without which you will choose to say our art is not authentic:

1. A dojo in Japan – there isn’t one. The first dojo was opened in 1966 in California.
2. A written record of who taught whom in the Saito clan, going back to the village in Fukushima – there isn’t one. If there were I would know about it, and you and/or Mr. Muromoto would certainly have discovered it by now.
3. Consistency in “the story” – this is oral tradition. Different people hear the story of our history in different ways and within different contexts. They then interprate and tell that history to others, in keeping with there own purposes and agenda. There is a fundamental flaw in oral history – any historian will tell you that. However, there is also a profound beauty in it – any mythologist will tell you that.
4. Wayne Muromoto’s stamp of approval. – I’m sorry; I don’t even know how to respond to this one.

I think before we go too much further we need to get clear as to what it is you are challenging, the authenticity of the martial art we practice/teach or the legend as penned by Shannon Phelps. Let us say, for the sake of argument that “the art was made up by Saito”. So what? How would that change anything?


Aloha,
Chris

I just recalled something. Tatsukin, you gave a history of the Saito family and how they taught Mark Saito sr the art. But if you look at the article on their history of the art you find this,

Mark Saito, Sr. was born in Hawaii and taught by his Japanese-born maternal grandfather. Saito's mother used to assure the grandchildren that "the Shorinjin is with your father" (Mark, Sr.) and that there was a shrine to the Shorinjin

Note the word maternal. So it seems unusual that the people who taught Mark Saito sr the art have the name "Saito." People rarely marry people with their last name, and if my maternal grandfather trained me in something, I know that I would not be calling it the Roley family tradition.

I know that oral tradition tends to get garbled in the passing, but this is something that happened to Mark Saito sr and he is still alive to ask questions of.

It is this type of thing, combined with just an absolute lack of proof, that makes me look askance at this art.

Well, family oral tradition aside, and claims to a tengu-taught art notwithstanding, what are the kanji used to write the transliterated "ninjitsu?"

With the primary instructor being allegedly fluent in Japanese and Chinese (the same characters are used in both languages in the exact same style), this should be a simple matter to clear up...

If it isn't "ninjutsu," but is really "ninjitsu," then the final kanji will be different. If they are not different, then what is it if not the art of the ninja? I know the Bujinkan folks have, in recent years, adopted the whole "we are spiritually oriented, in-th-now living actualized humans" schtick as opposed to the secret, black-garbed killers of the early '80s. Good for them. But they still toss a nod toward their Togakure-ryu roots now and again...

Saying that what they study is "ninjutsu," but they are not ninja is like saying they study karate but are not karateka, or that they study an art that is called jujutsu, but doesn't do any grappling...

I wait, but I don't hold my breath...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I know the Bujinkan folks have, in recent years, adopted the whole "we are spiritually oriented, in-th-now living actualized humans" schtick as opposed to the secret, black-garbed killers of the early '80s.

Yeah, and there was a reason for that. If people associate Ninpo with the black-clad assassins they see on TV or in the movies, then that tends to attract certain kind of people you may not necessarily want to be involved in your art.

I believe Hatsumi-soke also said that many people in the Bujinkan had become 'stuck' with the image of the ninja, and that was one of the reasons for the name change. Also, only four ryuha within the Bujinkan actually teach ninjutsu per se (if by 'ninjutsu' we are referring martial arts ryuha that focus on the so-called arts of 'stealing-in'). Then again, most of the other ryuha are historically 'ninja ryu' (even though they may not strictly be 'ninjutsu'), so.....

Good for them. But they still toss a nod toward their Togakure-ryu roots now and again...

Most of the ryuha within the Bujinkan have 'ninja roots'. Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu, Shinden Fudo-ryu Dakentaijutsu, Kukishinden-ryu Happo Hikenjutsu, and Gyokko-ryu Shitojutsu (which later became Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu and Koto-ryu Koppojutsu) all come from Hakuun-ryu Ninjutsu in varying degrees. Gikan-ryu Koppojutsu and Gyokushin-ryu Ninjutsu come from Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu, as well. Most (if not all) of these ryuha were historically part of the martial collective now called Iga-ryu Ninjutsu (and many of the 'founders' and soke of these schools were Iga-ryu jonin, or students of Iga-ryu jonin).


Saying that what they study is "ninjutsu," but they are not ninja is like saying they study karate but are not karateka, or that they study an art that is called jujutsu, but doesn't do any grappling...

I believe I once heard someone reffered to the Bujinkan students not as ninja but as ninjutsuka. I thought that was pretty good.....
;)

I think the difference is what a 'ninja' is is still open for debate. Is a ninja simply one that studies Ninpo?? Is a ninja a member of some Japanese intelligence network in fuedal Japan, and thus no longer exist?? Or.... is a ninja something else??

I shall quote Hatsumi-soke:

"Ninpo began as training to become a moral people
and to learn to endure in whatever social
condition one is in; to know and accept one's
fate, and to live for human beings and all other
creatures. The person who masters all of these
is a ninja."

'Nuff said.

Kanji can be found here, I think http://www.tfam.com/background/index.htm

scroll down, click on "Saito Ninjitsu" and scroll down

The kanji are on the pages listed by Ken above...

The correct Romaji spelling to reflect the Japanese pronunciation is "ninjutsu."

Interesting note... I was visiting with a friend of mine from Japan this past weekend, and we cracked open his electronic pocket dictionary to figure out what the answer to this ongoing question is. Interestingly, the "jutsu" character is often mispronounced by native Japanese speakers (at least in his experience - he is a 26 year old kendo nidan, so he isn't ignorant about martial arts), which may have led to the original misspelling...

Whatever. He and his girlfriend (also a native speaker who works in an English language tutoring school - we met them both when we were living in Japan, and they were visiting Seattle two weekends ago, and Canada last weekend) both agreed that the correct Romaji is "jutsu," not "jitsu."

Argument seems to be resolved regarding what is proper. Now, if Mr. Saito continues to use it in an incorrect spelling, at least he can just say that he continues to use it, though he is aware it is incorrect, because it was "traditionally" handed down to him misspelled...

His argument about the alternate interpretation of the term "ninjitsu," however, is completely in error... Wrong character to interpret in that context.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Originally posted by heretic888


"Ninpo began as training to become a moral people
and to learn to endure in whatever social
condition one is in; to know and accept one's
fate, and to live for human beings and all other
creatures. The person who masters all of these
is a ninja."


Dang. I have a long way to go.

As for Saito Ryu, I have no real idea of the history but there are 2 practitioners of it on my own forum. They are pretty knowledgable of what they know.
All possible fraud aside, they seem to have a pretty good grip of what it is they do. Which is a damn site more than I see from some of the larger orgs.
Pretty nice guys too.

Dave, we ARE NOT nice guys! We are purveyors of a sham! We dont know what were talking about. Are opinions are not valid. Everyone knows more than us about our art. We will be absorbed!:cool:

But thanks....

cheeky!

go to http://unv.aimoo.com

they are there, in the protected forums. You will need to make a test post first for me to change access.

Don, Matt,

I came to the forum carrying an olive branch. Sincerely willing to share my knowledge of the system. If you would like to know what I know, which is quite a bit, you will have to stop taking semantic pot shots at what I share with you; or I will be encouraged to talk with you no longer. I would like to clear something up here. I asked you before, who are you attacking? Shannon Phelps? Mark Saito, Sr.? Saito Ninjitsu? The Japanese for writing in squiggly lines which can be misinterpreted/pronounced by non-native speakers? The non-native speakers for misinterpreting/pronouncing the squiggly lines? Me, for having the gall to speak up without having uncovered the coveted book: History and Tradition of the Saito Ninja of Fukushima? I have zero need to argue/fight with you. If you have questions, I am here. I love this stuff. I find all of it fascinating, and will do my best to answer any sincere question. I will poke my head in every once in a while to see. But an intellectual discussion this in not… yet.

Ball’s in your court kids.

Peace, Love & Aloha,
Chris

Chris, If I may go out on a limb here. The argument is that "they" are not attacking at all. "They" are just requesting that the system justify itself. Of course, "they" are not particularly polite about it. If you re-read the posts, and visit other threads on other boards on this subject, you will see some pervasive (if illogical) lines of reasoning. I do not think you can make much headway here.
Here are some reminders:

"The sword that Saito ryu calls "The Tengu Sword" *chuckle* is from the Togakure ryu. "

an expert opinion on something that the speaker knows nothing about. When the truth is stated:

"The sword in question is NOT a Shinobi To. Firstly, it is not pointed (no kissaki) the tip is rounded. Why? Because it is double edged, from Hibaki all around edge of blade. Thus, it can cut in both directions. Thus, it is not a Nagimaki either"

no response, no " Oh, I didnt know that" why?

My point is this: You are wasting your time on this subject. Any facts that come to light or discrepencies in the argument are ignored or glossed over. Its almost like the facts are really whats wanted, whats really wanted is to discredit and prove the art a fake. Re -read the threads here, and over at e-budo. No matter how much posturing that is done, the true "nature" of the argument is apparent.

Heh. Comedy.

Here's a pamphlet that my sensei wrote and printed out for a martial arts exhibition back in 1997 in Hilo, Hawaii. Many copies were handed out publicly at the exhibition. Ishigo Sensei retired from teaching in 1998, so Ninway Ninjitsu Academy is currently closed. Although Shannon K. Phelps and Sam Ishigo did train together under Mark Saito Sr., there are some slight differences between their teachings. Any questions? Feel free to ask.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NINWAY NINJITSU ACADEMY

NINWAY NINJITSU ACADEMY offers a 2,000 year old mystical and magical martial art system encompassing 40 different martial arts. It's knowledge has been handed down through generations. NINJITSU is the art of Man and not the art of the Ninja (Ninjutsu). It is the art of enlightenment and not the art of destruction. It makes the impossible possible. To be a Ninjitsu master, a lifelong student of Man, one must not only be able to dismantle (physically and psychologically) a human, but also be able to reassemble the human both in body, and spirit. Consequently, graduates of Ninjitsu are found in the medical, healing, teaching, computer, engineering, etc. sciences.

SHORINJIN (SHAOLIN)
There are two levels of instruction. The Shorinjin (Shaolin) Level deals with the physical instruction. A student here learns about his physical body, it's capabilities and incapabilities, against another human being. Through the art of Fushido (the mat work), the ground becomes his ally and not his enemy. His training literally begins from the ground up. Through basic stances, he learns to be grounded and draw power from the earth. He learns to roll forward, backward, and side-wards to get out of danger or to protect himself. He also learns how to break his fall should he be thrown or his legs cut out from under him. Through his practice in ancient ritual dances and it's derived training in karate/kung fu kicks and punches, he then learns to use his fists, feet, elbows, knees, arms, legs and fingers in defending himself against any conceivable attack situation. By mastering Kiai-jitsu (spirit shout), he can stop time, freeze, or move people. With the use of Shinkeido (nerve shattering), he can momentarily freeze his opponent allowing him to apply a restraining hold or a disabling technique. Using jiu-jitsu and aiki-jujitsu techniques, he learns to throw his opponents, grapple and restrain them using a finger, a wrist, and arm, a leg, and choke holds. He also masters the countermoves to the above techniques. Through his intense knowledge of the human mechanism, he is able to dislocate parts of the human body. However, by the same token, he learns to relocate any dislocated parts. By mastering the most ancient and ritualistic “The Dances of the Gods”, the student learns to defend himself against multiple attackers. Less becomes more. Swiftness of movement overcomes brute force. Once he masters the respective schemes (techniques) of the Shorinjin, Jujitsu, Aiki-jujitsu, Pa Sai, Shinkeido, and Self Defense arts, the student is so well trained, his defense, at his option, becomes a blur of movement. Magically, it seems, his opponent is down or incapacitated. How the attacker is defeated is irrelevant. That the attacker is down and out is of the only importance. Like the principles in Zen, he is trained to react according to what is presented to him. His reaction is instinctive and immediate. No reflection is necessary. As he progresses, if deemed worthy, the student is then taught the art of weaponry. He first learns the art of the Yawara, a six inch by 1 inch diameter dowel. It’s principles can be practiced with the use of a yawara, a pen, or a quarter. The next weapon is that of the Tengu sword. It is a spinning, double-edged, double-sword-fighting art. According to ancient Japanese mythology, the Tengu, a half-bird/half-man creature that dwelled in the forests of Japan occasionally would teach mortals such as Yoshimitsu, a great warrior in old Japan, Miyamoto Musashi, the greatest swordsman in Japan, and Uyeshiba, the founder of modern Aikido, some of its sword-fighting secrets. Through ancient ritual dances, and the aid of the instructor, the student learns to unlock the secrets of the Tengu double-sword-fighting techniques. Another weapon is that of the Bo, the long staff, whose length is determined by the height of its wielder. Here again ritual dances play a major part in mastering this weapon. Other weapons mastered are the Tonfa, Nunchaku, the Sai, the Handkerchief, and the Coin. It is said that a graduate of the Shorinjin Ninjitsu level can have a black belt in any of forty martial arts within 6 months. This has been proven many times.


NINJITSU MASTER
Once all the principles and techniques of open-hand and weapons are mastered, the student then enters the NINJITSU MASTER training. He learns more about the human body, its strong points, its weak points. Points of the human body to sedate, notify, stun, resuscitate. He learns to rehabilitate injuries and heal the sick. He is able to recognize and increase his aura and that of other people. He looks beyond the surface of man to seek the truth of their intentions. To develop further, he must hear without listening. He must see without his eyes. He must sense before he touches. He must smell without the use of his nose. He must taste without the use of his tongue. Only then will he be capable of developing his sixth sense. Then he must learn to communicate without speaking - Telepathically. Thus, he would then be ready to enter the fourth dimension and let Time work to his advantage. He uses the innate power of Man to effect changes in his fellow man through love. But above all, the NINJITSU MASTER is a student of Man. He is grounded to earth, governed by a Higher Power, and a free-flowing spirit of ever-increasing knowledge.


Sam I. Ishigo
Founder
NINWAY NINJITSU ACADEMY
P.O. Box 8
Honomu, HI 96728
Tel: 808-963-6128
Fax: 808-963-6750

That was horribly painful to read.

Yea Jay I almost agree. Just like reading your Traditional Russian MA website. I like the part about after the Communist Takeover how these arts faded into obscurity do to the oppression and pain of imprisonment for those who passed on this secret impromtu knowledge. So your saying it was practiced in secret under one of the most paranoid and watchful government's in history and no one knew about it? I'm sure you have all the documentation as to the Russian lineages. You know, who taught who from the begining. And to paraphrase the shoe pounding Nikita - didn't they discover it first, the martial arts that is. :shrug:

New Line

I will say this. I believe Mr. Ishigo only obtained 5th or 6th dan. Tatsukin might know more about that though since he is in Hawaii.

Also, since Saito Sr. first taught his family's NinjItsu in 1966 isn't that well before the American Ninja Boom of the early to mid 1970's? Yet he does not lay claim to starting said boom. So what's his motivation?

I also know that Mr. Muramoto did not go to the Saito's to ask about thier art but instead sought out a former practioner who may or may not have gained BB ranking and addmitted that he had not practiced the art in many years and was not 100% in his recolection. He was teaching some form of karate or other MA. Why did Mr. Muromoto do that? He writes descent commontary but is hardly an authority on Ninpo (ninja arts) or a certified Japanese Historian (at least according to his Bio on Koryu.com).

Dr. Karl Friday also admitted that he never took the time to research the Saito Art. He also stated on Koryu.com that "they", Koryu.com and their associated historians, do not research Ninjutsu and could really care less about it since it is not Koryu bujutsu. He even went as far as to point out the "questionable aspects" of Hatsumis claims.

Many of you comment on pictures from the TFAM website and about the Tengu-to and its effectiveness. I'm glad so many of you all knowing masters can tell from a few pictures the total effectiveness of an art's techniques and its entire philosophy. So far to date only three people from the BJK have visited the school. Two were extremely rude even though they were shown common courtiousy. They pased up and down the viewing area as if they wanted to get on the mat and go for it. The only civil BJK member to visit the school is Dan Wiedeman (6th dan I believe). He asked some good questions and was very open and upfront. The most he has said is that it is not BJK. I think a lot of Don Roley's distain stems from him feeling slighted when Phelps Sensei was invited to Japan by a Ranked American Student ( a female Lawyer from the Mid West I believe) of Hatsumi's to visit with him for I believe a week or two and no one coordinated it throught Don.

I understand that Mark Saito Jr. is planning a trip to Fukushima, Japan with his Japanese wife who is fluent in the language to do family/historical research on the art.

I think everyone needs to just go train in your own art and stop worrying about what others are doing. If it really bugs you that much go kick thier ass or sue them for fraud. :rolleyes:

Steve McGovern
Saito NinjItsu

BJK Club (http://www.rdg.ac.uk/martial-arts/club.shtml?ninjitsu)

Looks like there need to be some regulation within thier own org.

Yea Jay I almost agree. Just like reading your Traditional Russian MA website. I like the part about after the Communist Takeover how these arts faded into obscurity do to the oppression and pain of imprisonment for those who passed on this secret impromtu knowledge. So your saying it was practiced in secret under one of the most paranoid and watchful government's in history and no one knew about it? I'm sure you have all the documentation as to the Russian lineages. You know, who taught who from the begining. And to paraphrase the shoe pounding Nikita - didn't they discover it first, the martial arts that is.

If you would do some reading there, chief, you'd see that those old lines of Russian arts are still very much in existance today. As far as documentation, Russian arts don't document lineages in the same way that Japan does. Nice try...but apples and oranges only have the similarities of being fruit.

**Another note. Sokoli Stalina were practitioners of what is today Russian Martial Art, as were the KGB. Today, it is the training for Spetsnaz GRU, MVD units.

As I said before...painful to read.

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Yea Jay I almost agree. Just like reading your Traditional Russian MA website. I like the part about after the Communist Takeover how these arts faded into obscurity do to the oppression and pain of imprisonment for those who passed on this secret impromtu knowledge. So your saying it was practiced in secret under one of the most paranoid and watchful government's in history and no one knew about it? I'm sure you have all the documentation as to the Russian lineages.

One sign of someone on the ropes who can't prove his dubious claims is he attacks the guys who doubt those claims. It is a sign of desperation. Instead of providing proof of those claims, they try to put the doubters on the defensive. That is what we see above. Of course, Steve McGovern also gained some noteriety for his conduct as documented by Dave Lowry in this article,

http://www.e-budo.com/html/snobb.htm

In case you can't tell, Wayne Muromoto was the guy who was accused of "anti-Polinisian" snobbery and Steve was the guy who did it. It would be nice if instead of attacking others, people like Steve could show the slightest bit of proof to the claims of Mark Saito sr.

Last Saturday I worked out with two guys who trained in Systema. One of them had even been to Russia and trained with a guy named Mikail (sp) and others. So we know that the Russian martial art Systema esists in Russia. Can the Saito ryu provide the slightest bit of proof (outside of the word of Mark Saito sr of course) that Saito ryu existed prior to Mark Saito sr in the 80s and in Japan? So far, I have not seen any proof. The folks in it all say that it exists, but they can't point me to anything I can access on my own to back up their claims. No newspaper knew they existed, no source outside of their dojo was aware they existed. Just like Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan, etc.

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Also, since Saito Sr. first taught his family's NinjItsu in 1966 isn't that well before the American Ninja Boom of the early to mid 1970's? Yet he does not lay claim to starting said boom. So what's his motivation?

Proof please. Ron Duncan claims to have been teaching ninjutsu since the 60s, yet no one outside of his inner circle claims to have been aware of it. Talking like it existed does not make it true.

Let me guess, you can not point me to anything outside of a trip to San Diego and your teacher, right?

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Many of you comment on pictures from the TFAM website and about the Tengu-to and its effectiveness. I'm glad so many of you all knowing masters can tell from a few pictures the total effectiveness of an art's techniques and its entire philosophy.

Oh, did I say that I knew it's entire philosophy? What I say, and will repeat again, is that the things that Phelps does in it shows a complete lack of knowledge about swords and no one I know in Japan would do the things he does witha sword. Want an example? In one technique he is not in danger of being cut, but leaves his sword so that it's edge is hit by the attackers sword edge. No one I know who does any type of sword work would do that kind of thing. In my view, it shows a complete lack of skill in sword work. Coupl this with the way Mark Saito sr was shown up by Don Angier and you can ssafely say that the Saito guys have shown no skill with a sword.

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
So far to date only three people from the BJK have visited the school. Two were extremely rude even though they were shown common courtiousy. They pased up and down the viewing area as if they wanted to get on the mat and go for it. The only civil BJK member to visit the school is Dan Wiedeman (6th dan I believe). He asked some good questions and was very open and upfront. The most he has said is that it is not BJK. I think a lot of Don Roley's distain stems from him feeling slighted when Phelps Sensei was invited to Japan by a Ranked American Student ( a female Lawyer from the Mid West I believe) of Hatsumi's to visit with him for I believe a week or two and no one coordinated it throught Don.

Congratulation. I had stopped posting since Russ left, but the above mention of my name brought me back. Deal with me.

What I want to know, is why you are now changing your story. Before, you were claiming Hatsumi invited Phelps thorugh an American Shihan. Now you are saying that she did it on her own. Damn, you are trying to cover you tail pretty damn hard.

And you also used to mention that Kevin Millis and one other (name temporarily forgotten) trained with you and said the art was similar to the Bujinkan. Now you are saying that only three people have visited your school and two were rude and only Weidman commented (negativly) on its similarity to BBT.

How about you get Phelps (who speaks English, has a computer and is registered here UNLIKE HATSUMI (so don't try to use that dodge)) to give the name of this person who invited him? I want to know if she initiated the trip, or if Phelps did. And I want Phelps to say her name so that when the person I think it is (Regina Brice) says she was contacted first you guys can't say it was just a mistake.

And if you can't get the name of this person, then we can treat your story like we do Frank Dux's story about his teacher Tanaka- also without any proof to back it up.

To sum up this thread. The Saito ryu claims it is a Japanese art with a thousand year old history. Yet they can not show one bit of proof in Japan that the art esisted there. (Oh yeah- Mark Saito is Asian so he must have been taught ninjutsu like he claims :shrug: )

They also can show no proof that Mark Saito recived the training he claims or that the art existed prior to him.

The Japanese terms they say was passed on by Native speakers is so bad it is funny. The history they claim makes Japanese laugh (Shaolin monks training ninja in secret- :rolleyes: ) and the stuff they do has little relation to what is seen in Japan.

In short, Frank Dux may find them good company, but few others should.

Don, put up the post where I said Hatsumi invited Phelps. You can't becuase it doesn't exist. I have always stated that Phelps was invited by a BJK Member. Therefore you are again talking through your hat.

Oh and I did read Lowery's article after someone emailed me a discussion he had with him. Seems Mr. Lowery is ripe for getting his info secondhand and not checking things out for himself as well. He went off Wayne Muramoto's information. As it was Lowery didn't even get THAT right. I guess that's what can be expected from a "Professional Writer". I did not accuse Wayne of being"anti-Polinisian" I said the statement he used about "Cheese smelling foriengers" was a racist. Since Wayne stood by his statement that would make him racist in that respect. So why didn't the reknowned Mr. Lowery just print my name as the accuser in his article? Why did he not name the Saito's as frauds? Because he wouldn't want to be suied for liable that's why.

Who's Kevin Mills and please put up the post where I said this. Another non-existant Don Factiod. I do know a David Mills.

You seem to have this big deal about who learned from who. Saito learned his art from his Grandfather. Maternal or paternail why does that make a difference? He was also taught by his mother as well. Oh but I guess historically women were never taught the arts. And your point about same-named people marrying. Were not the Lower Classes in Japan authorized Sir Names only after the Meji Restoration? That would mean that even thought two people might have the same last name they were not necessarily blood related. If Wayne Muramoto or Dave Lowery really wanted to investigate the art, there are plenty of people around who studied with Saito Sr. in the early years who are qualified to talk about it still around who can verify this fact. Professor Kaito (David Nuuiwa, sp) who has NEVER stuided Saito Ryu and has been around a long time in the MA community has known Saito Sr. since he was a kid and knows of his Grandfather as well. He's not in "The Circle" Why didn't they ask him? He teaches Phelps the Lua art and that has nothing to do with Phelps's involvement in Saito Ryu.

Actually Don you no absolutly nothing about the Saito art. You've never seen it and never investigated it other than reading the TFAM Website. You merely comment on its lack of Koryu type documentation. Since they were not of the Samurai Class but the Farmer Class I can see no reason, historically from the Japanese perspective and I do have you to thank for starting my studies in this area, why they would do so. As far as the sword technique you looked at, that's because they don't use this sword or understand the reasoning behind it. That's good. The sword is not our soul. Its a piece of metal stuck in wood. If it is damaged, broken, whatever it doesn't matter, we make another one.

As far as pointing you in directions. You're in Japan and close to Fukushima go search it out for yourself if you are really interessted. No matter what I present to you, Phill or anybody else you will not take it at face value anyway so you might as well go look around for yourself. Put you money where your mouth is or wait until Mark Saito Jr. publishes his findings.

Rigina Brice. I'm not sure of the name. The all old email was dumped when the old server went down and a new server was established. Yeah pretty convienent huh. However I did mention this awhile ago. But if this is who [b]you[b] think it was why don't you just ask her?

As far as using terms. Its Baseball not Basabaru (phonetic), an American word. The Japanese don't even spell it the same or even make the attempt to pronounce it correctly so by your reasoning the Japanese are not playing Real Authentic American Baseball merely an imitation.

Hey why don't you give Hatsumi a computer and register him here. Better yet, translate for him.
:rolleyes:

Jay, Yes I know that we westerners do not document things like the Japanese. I was merely making a point. Just because something is not public knowledge doesn't mean it did not, doesnot or could not exist (have existed). I believe Don had stated on another board, and I'm paraphrasing here, that the tradition and practice of purely oral transmission of information did not exist in Japan.

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu

I was merely making a point. Just because something is not public knowledge doesn't mean it did not, doesnot or could not exist (have existed)

I do have a question here...

Are there any examples of things like the special swords they use, etc... in any of the museums or open collections in japan?

Wow Steve! What a great example of hate and rudeness on your part! I say that you guys have shown no more proof than Frank Dux or Ronald Duncan, and instead of providing even the SLIGHTEST bit of proof outside of Mark Saito's word, you go on the attack. You attacked Me, you attacked Dave Lowry, you attacked Wayne Muromoto (again) and you attacked Karl Friday. It makes me feel good to be part of this international conspiracy against the Saito ryu.

Let me deal with just one part of your hate-filled, but fact deficient, post.

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
Who's Kevin Mills and please put up the post where I said this. Another non-existant Don Factiod. I do know a David Mills.

Here we go,

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=15043&perpage=15&highlight=kevin%20millis&pagenumber=9

I used the term "you" in this case to mean the defneders of mark Saito's claims. As you can see, Kevin Millis and Glen Morris are mentioned. Now we read your (in this case the singular) post saying that there were two Bujinkan practicioners (unamed) who visited and were rude. Hmmmm.

And I am still waiting for some sort of facts from you. Facts that I can go and check for myself instead of trusting your word. You say someone invited Phelps to Japan. I want to hear that from himself. He is a registered member here. If it turns out that everyone other than he said he was invited and that turns out to be false, then he can simply say it was a mistake on your part and not deception. But if he makes the claim himself on this board, then he can't use that excuse. Again, he is a registered member who has posted and his silence on this matter woud indicate he might just want to give himself some defense when the story turns out to be a fabrication. Of course, he could just post the name and circumstances of his trip to Japan and set this to rest- but I am not going to place any heavy bets on him doing so for the reasons I just gave. :D

Oh and Technopunk, no to your question. No physical evidence like that, no mention in a historical or other work and no back up for key parts of their story like Shaolin monks coming to Japan. :rolleyes:

Don I am so glad you can see so clearly into people. So when I defend myself or my position against you or anyone else , or I point it out when someone who is a "Professional "Writer" is venomous and has not done thier own research and then publishes statements that effect, or I point out that experts you have personally referenced who really don't don't lend that much credence to what you practice or Hatsumi claims then that is considered hate. Very well, so be it.

FYI, here's Mr. Lowery's response.

Dear Mr. XXXXXXX, (Name remove on request to protect his privacy. Yes Don, repsonsible people do this sort of thing.)
Unfortunately, the "whole incident" was not made up. The putative "ryu" was something called "Sato ryu," which is being taught in Hawaii and I believe, in a few places on the mainland. The authority who investigated it was Mr. Wayne Muromoto, of Honolulu. He found, as I observed in the article, no
documentation from any Japanese sources, a story by the teacher that was historically and culturally improbable to say the least, and techniques being practised which were identical to modern karate-do. This "ryu" has been extensively discussed on e-budo's site and if you have further questions, I suggest you do a search on that site. Finally, since I am a professional writer whose livelihood depends on getting my facts straight and telling the truth, please do not make inferences about my "making things up" without offering any evidence in that regard.

Sincerely,

Dave Lowry


I see Wayne has graduated from High School Graphics Teacher, Martial Arts online magazine publisher and skilled Martial Artist to "authority". I take that to mean in every Japanese Martial Art since Mr. Lowery is "a professional writer whose livelihood depends on getting my facts straight and telling the truth".

As for swords. I'm sure every weapon and artifact that ever existed in Japan is in its national musuem. Maybe "we" should send them one.

As for you link to ebudo I believe this is the what you are refering to: Gozanryu wrote:
If I have seen Sensei Millis and Dr. Morris exhibit your art, that is not the "real deal"? I am trying not to be difficult, however, you are not making much sense. If the two, above mentioned high ranking members of your system are not representative of your art, perhaps YOU should inform them. I think they might dissagree with you. Your arrogance astounds me.

I fail to see your point. As for the two BJK members whom I spoke of, they were probably in their early to mid 20's and had come down from either northern San Diego or Orange County I do not rightly recall. I also did say on another thread that I had worked out with three BJK members onboard my last ship. Two were EOD Team and one I have known for over 20 years.

For future reference Don, If you want Phelps or Saito to respond to you, which they won't because who are you anyway, come see them for yourself. I'll lay odds that Hatsumi will not come to me if I demand it in the same manner you do. And for someone who professes to be so engulfed in the Japanese Culture you sure as hell do not display it. BTW did you ever get that Carbon Dating done on Hatsumi's Densho as I requested? Oh I'm sorry, that's the standard turn around attack.

Everyone, all of this has been discussed on ebudo. Go there and do a search and read it all for yourselves. John Lindsey no longer allows the topic to be discussed on that board but it is in the archives. It is rather pointless to do it all over again.

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
For future reference Don, If you want Phelps or Saito to respond to you, which they won't because who are you anyway, come see them for yourself. I'll lay odds that Hatsumi will not come to me if I demand it in the same manner you do.

Wow, more hatred!

Andof course, Hatsumi is not registered here, but Phelps is. But for some reason, Phelps just can not take the responsibility of making his own statmenets, and thus there is some plausible deniability when mistakes are made. Like in his terrible Japanese translations. People keep saying he is fluent in the language, but he does not show any great ability in the language.

And I would jus tlike to point out to people who do not know the facts, Wayne Muromoto offered to look over the research that supposably is going on by the Saito ryu. That was when the accusations that he was racist started. The Saito ryu likes to claim that no one who says they think the art is a creation of Mark Satio sr fromt he 80s has looked at their research. But they won't show that research to anyone and have attacked those that make the effort to offer.

Again, Frank Dux and Ashida Kim have just as many red flags associated with their story and the same lack of proof for their claims. If the Saito ryu guys don't like it, then the best way to mand that would be to provide some sort of proof that does nto rely on their word and can be independently verified. Kind of what Koyama Ryutaro, Nawa Yumio and a few other guys in Japan did for the4 Togakure ryu.

Per Admin request, please keep it civil you two

Ok Jay. I can keep it civil, but it has been my experience that when folks have nothing they can point to as facts and their arguments are shot down they tend to start trashing their detractors.

To summerize so far...

There is nothing that anyone can access for themselves to back up the claim that Mark Saito sr learned his art instead of creating it about 1980 or so. The Saito ryu talks about certain things as if they were facts, but can't show us where to look on our own.

There is no documentation for this school in Japan.

(Perhaps I should say that I can find no more documentation here than I can for Ashida Kim just to forestall the excuse of, "well did you ask EVERYONE in Japan about this?"

There is no example of their secret weapon in Japan.
(And the thing looks like a Pineapple knife from Hawaii.)

There is no tales of Shaolin monks in Japan- which means that tales of them appearing in a legend like the Saito ryu one are as out of place as Mayan pyramids in historical legends of King Arthur.

The Japanese used by the Saito ryu is said to have been passed down form a native speaker who taught Saito sr. Yet no one with proven Japanese ability says that their examples are anything other than bad jokes.

No person who has lived in Japan, speaks the language, studies a martial art that can be found in Japan and/or has a reputation for knowing a lot about pre-modern Japanese arts has said they believe the Saito ryu was created in Japan.

The people who match the above description (Karl Friday, Dave Lowry, Wayne Muromoto) who have made comments about the Saito ryu all said they believe it was created by the Hawaian Mark Saito sr and not taught to him as he claims. They have all been attacked and their charecter, professionism and competence have been called into question by the Saito ryu at every oppurtunity.

The Saito ryu tried to quell comments from Bujinkan members by saying that Phelps was somehow invited, helped or had a meeting set up with Hatsumi by an influential American shihan. Yet Phelps himself refuses to give his account of the tale and no one in the Saito ryu seems able to even give the name of this person who supposably acted as a go- between for Hatsumi and Phelps.

There we go. Not very flattering, but all true with as little emotional baggage as possible.

Let me see if I've got this argument summed up here:

- The organizations spelling is wrong.

- The back history can not be verified by outside sources.

- Some of the terminology is also questionable based on established arts of similar nature.

- This debate has been beated to death on other forums, and the links to those debates posted.

- A couple of those involved here, have 'heat' from another board.


Now, I've got some grumbling from a few folks due to what they perceive as a rehashed pissing match brewing. Personally, I don't see too much worth me worrying about in here at the moment, but if the tempers can't be kept in check, and no one has anything -new- to add to the arguments, then it's best to let this one die out. I think most points were made.

:asian:

Kaith - you are right. Its a dead horse. The problem with "Terms" stems from two words that we have always said were incorrect and have explained why we choose not to change them.

Yes Don, you are right, its not very flattering but at least its civil.

As far as the people you mentioned being attacked by me and me alone as the case may be. I have never attacked Dr. Friday but merely pointed out the neither he nor anyone at Koryu.com has any interest in discussing Ninpo/Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu related topics. Just because I use his quotes and comments and those of the people he has intervied pointing out discrepancies with Hatsumi's claims, suddenly I am attacking you and the BJK personally. Dr. Friday stated that he did not research the Saito's art but that it did not look like ninjutsu he had seen (I assume he means BJK). To me that statement is truthful and I have never had a problem with it.

I pointed out that Mr. Lowery, as a professional writer, and who may be considered an expert in many traditional Japanese martial arts is not an expert in Ninpo/Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu, did not do as he stated in his email that was forwarded to me. So my point was this, what does that say about his character? A writer is known by his words and a man by his actions as well, correct?

As far as Wayne is concerned, perhaps since he is in Hawaii he should make his offer, if it is truly genuine, to the Saito's and not me. Mark Saito Jr. is working on the history and is planning a trip to Japan. This would be the proper course of action since, as you always so adamently and constantly point out, it is thier responsibility and not that of thier students to provide proof. And as I recall someone not involved in Saito Ryu also mentioned that a different statement from the same article could be construde as having racial overtones as well. So it wasn't just me.

Kawika Sensei (Mr. Phelps) has already responded on this board and to emails. If he does not wish to respond to you over the internet that's his perogative. I for one am not going to tell him he must do this. Yes he does own a computer. So you mean in the 21st Century Hatsumi cannot purchase a computer and get on line to answer questions about his claims? He doesn't have to and chooses not to. Its beneith him. Hatsumi does not respond to rudeness so why should anyone else. I think you need to go back and re-read the Rules of the BJK and maybe counsel with Hatsumi as to your behavior. Being genuinly inquisitive is one thing. Questioning documentation and history is fine. Being accusational and repugnant is another.

Jay. As with all the other threads on Saito Ryu I think this one is dead as well so I am done with it.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Let me see if I've got this argument summed up here:

- The organizations spelling is wrong.

- The back history can not be verified by outside sources.

This is putting it mildly. There is no evidence to support the personal training history of the still living Mark Saito sr. Just like Frank Dux or Ashida Kim, he makes claims of being taught something, but will not show even the slightest bit of proof that such training actually happened. Everyone I know can show proof of their training, why can't Mark Saito sr? So, if we treat the Saito ryu guys like we do Dux and Kim, they really have no complaint until they show that proof.

And many aspects of their claims are actually contridicted by established facts. Couple this with the many, many problems that have cropped up with Saito sr (like his half second "duel" he forced on Don Angier)and his story and you see why we do not want to treat them as anything more than another Ashida Kim.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
- Some of the terminology is also questionable based on established arts of similar nature.

It is not questionable Japanese, as one person (not a Bujinkan member) wrote, it is hysterically bad Japanese. Supposably passed down from a native speaker. Thus it is kind of doubtfull that Saito's story of being taught by his grandfather has any merit. Couple that with the lack of proof for that training and the rather silly history and you see why no one in Japan I know of give them any credit.

Being a practitioner of Saito Ninjitsu, I never really wondered about the history and lineage of the art as opposed to just concentrate on learning and practicing the art. I must say that everything said is very interesting. Sure, there is no evidence, but I don't think it discounts that Mark Saito Sr. was taught by his maternal grandfather. If not his grandfather, I think he was taught AT LEAST by someone.

I find that Saito Ninjitsu is an effective and complex art encompassing over 120 dances and schemes. My sensei, Sam Ishigo, opened his school in the mid-1980s. Could the art really have been created by Mark Saito Sr. in 1980 or so, and have my sensei learn everything in California in time to open up a school in Hawaii? While my sensei was living in California a while back, he initially was learning Kung Fu, but quit when he found that Saito Ninjitsu taught ground-fighting and other things his Kung Fu sifu did not teach at the time. My point is that the art is too complex to just have been created by Mark Saito Sr.

Originally posted by Ninway J
If not his grandfather, I think he was taught AT LEAST by someone.

Snip

My point is that the art is too complex to just have been created by Mark Saito Sr.

I have heard the same argument from other groups that have turned out to be complete frauds. In fact, there if very little in what anyone in the Saito ryu has said that I have not heard from the followers of frauds like Jack Stern, Honraku Hoshino, Ron Duncan, etc.

Go over to e-budo and look up a guy named Richard Price. He used to practice "Fuma- ryu" and said it was a great, effective art. He said it was just too good and complex to have been made up by the guy calling himself Honraku Hoshino. I sparred with him on the boards for months before he got a chance to ask Hoshino about the things I said. The answers, or rather lack of them, caused him to leave the Fuma ryu and study another art. A few years later he now says that the Fuam ryu was a complete waste of time and dangerously stupid based on his new experiences.

Richard Price is my one big success in advising people away from frauds. Most of the time, people have invested too much time in training and do not want to admit they were stupid enough to follow an incompetent con-man. Richard was the one guy who had reached instructor status but was not bound by his ego and made the break. Today he is much better than he ever could have been under the Fuma ryu guys.

So, your arguments all sound like ones I have heard before from frauds and you can not show any sort of proof. Is it any wonder you are not treated as anything other than those you resemble?

Originally posted by Ninway J
My point is that the art is too complex to just have been created by Mark Saito Sr.

I don't know much about your art, other than what I have read on their website, but I would like to point out that many "complex arts" have been created by Individual people...

Many very accomplished martial artists, as well as frauds. "Jeet Kun Do" was "created" by Bruce Lee. "Dux Ryu Ninjitsu" was "Created" by Frank Dux...

Theoretically It is possible for Mr. Saito to have studied say, Judo, or Karate, or Aikido, or a combination of arts, and blended them and called it "Ninjitsu" (I am not saying he did this, I am just saying that its something that is possible for anyone to do)

Someone who does this may be a very accomplished artist, who simply lies about the origin of their art to give it more credibility... (Agian, not referring specifically to Mr Saito, its a general statement of caution...)

Originally posted by Karasu Tengu
I have never attacked Dr. Friday but merely pointed out the neither he nor anyone at Koryu.com has any interest in discussing Ninpo/Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu related topics.

Just in case anyone is led astray by your comment and related ones....

Your comment would only be relevent if Dr Friday, Dave Lowry, Wayne Muromoto and everyone who 1) has lived in Japan, 2) has great experience in Japanese martial arts, 3) has demonstrated fluency in the language, etc, said that the Saito ryu was not a ninjutsu tradition. What they said was that the thing called the Saito ryu is not even a Japanese created art. You can not dispute the expertise of these people and others I have not mentioned are such that they KNOW what comes from Japan and what was created by someone like Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, etc. Quite simply put, when looking at the Saito ryu, all of these experts on what is Japanese and what was created outside of Japan, as well as every other person studying martial arts in Japan is that the art is not Japanese which would mean that the most likely explination is that Mark Saito sr made the art up rather than have been taught by a native Japanese as he claims but can not prove.

I challenge anyone with the same expertise to provide a person with years of living and training in Japan with a similar level of expertise in the language, history, etc to say that the art taught by Mark Saito sr shows signs that it was created in Japan rather than being created by Mark Saito sr. The facts are that there is no proof that Saito learned it like he claims, there are several points that raise red flags and the Saito ryu claims that no one who decries its claims has seen the proof they hint at having while refusing to show that proof to anyone like Dave Lowry, Karl Friday, and Wayne Muromoto. Instead, such people are labled with claims of being "racist" and the like, which no one outside of the Saito ryu seems to agree with once they know the facts. Take a look at this thread (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=21219) and see how Steve Mcgovern was not willing to back up his accusations when facing the person he accused of beign a racist and no one other than the Saito ryu folks thought that Wayne Muramoto really made a racist comment.

Mr. Roley,
I think you have made your point, several times in fact. Please discontinue the "Fraud Busting." I am not taking sides nor am I disputing anything any one has said. I am simply saying, you have made your point, it is time to stop.
Seig

No problem. I have stated my case. I will just sit by and relax until some point worth responding to is made, or my name is once again brought up in this thread.:wavey:

Hi
My name is Ihab, I’m a student of Shorinjin-Ryu Saito Ninjitsu
I study under Grandmaster Mark Saito Jr. “soke”
I have been training sine April ’96, my rank is shodan

I read a few of the messages about the art, and I would like to clarify a few points

Shorinjin-Ryu Saito Ninjitsu is an art developed by the Saito Clan of Fukushima ken Japan. It is 100% Japanese, and is over one thousand years old. It is not a ninja art, that's why its spelled Ninjitsu.

This art was passed down for many generations from grandfather to grandson

In early 1900’s Hanschichi Saito moved to Hawaii with his wife, and daughter. Years after the daughter gave birth to Mark Saito, at age 4 he began his training with his grandfather
He concluded his training at age 13

April 4, 1966 Mr. Saito opened the first ever public school of Shorinjin-Ryu Saito Ninjitsu. Mr. Saito is an 8th degree Ninjitsu master

He taught his 2 sons Mark Jr. and Maui Saito
Only 3 students received the rank of Judan Sensei Mark Saito Jr, Sensei Maui Saito, and Sensei Shanon “Kawika” Phelps

This is a very ancient martial art, and to this day it is taught the same way it was taught hundreds of years ago

Saito Ninjitsu teaches the use of many weapons one of which is the Tengu sword It has a 13 inch double-sided blade, that is round, not pointed The sword is spun aroun