Know your art

[chufeng]

Ladies and Gentlemen (hopefully, I can use that here without offending anyone);)

This is just a random clip of some of the stuff I see on this board:
Regarding someone's favorite submission technique:


The one where you like cross your arms, grab his lapel and choke him out... not to be too techniquel or anything

I know we have a lot of beginners here...but PLEASE, at least have enough interest in what you do to be able to NAME the technique...

If you want those of us who are here to help, to help...show us that you are serious enough about your training that you can at least use the proper term for a given technique...

If your teacher is NOT teaching you the names of said techniques...he/she is not serving you to the best of his/her abilities.

IMHO

:asian:
chufeng


__________________

[MartialArtist]

I really don't think names are important, and some people have different names for the same technique, but if you don't know what the hell you're doing, or you don't know what a cross is, you're in trouble.

I did and still do a lot of moves that I have no name for. Of course, it's due to adaptation but yes, I agree, you should know the name of it and/or know at least some of the general names for a move that are common in all arts. In the military, they don't tell you what they call every strategy. Let's take urban combat. They have different names for how to attack a building as in criss-crossing, etc. but others have really no name, you have the freedom for a bit of change here and there.

[DAC..florida]

AMEN!

If you dont know the name at least try to walk us through it so we can try to visualize, we are not all from the same style.

[chufeng]

OK...


I really don't think names are important, and some people have different names for the same technique

So defend against...hadakajime...does that make sense?
defend against tomoenage...does that make sense?

execute iriminage...does that make sense?

Do this thing where you cross your hands and somehow choke off the wind...does THAT make sense????

My point is...know the language of your art...
I recognize my first two examples from Judo...and the third from Aikido...the fourth...from ???

You get my drift?

:asian:
chufeng

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by chufeng
OK...



So defend against...hadakajime...does that make sense?
defend against tomoenage...does that make sense?

execute iriminage...does that make sense?

Do this thing where you cross your hands and somehow choke off the wind...does THAT make sense????

My point is...know the language of your art...
I recognize my first two examples from Judo...and the third from Aikido...the fourth...from ???

You get my drift?

:asian:
chufeng

The last one makes sense to me. I have no idea what the others were. At first, I thought you were being sarcastic.

You have to remember, this is a mixed forum, and a lot of people don't study your art. Maybe you can make this request on the art specific areas.

Here's an example.

Which one do you understand?
1) Execute a sunkite
2) Execute a biu jee
3) Execute a finger jab towards the oponent's eyes

[Aegis]

Is iriminage the quite famous Aikido throw where the defender pulls the attacker round in a circle then basically goes for the face with one of his arms, reversing the direction of the circle and forcing the opponent to the floor?

I have that technique associated with that name despite having never trained in Aikido...

[yilisifu]

Yep, that's the one!:)

[Quick Sand]

In my style, the language we normally use is english but we don't have specific names for each technique. We often just say things like "Straight across wrist grab." We learn several different defenses against this and then we often have the option of using whatever works best for us. In class we are shown specific techniques and we will work on that one for several minutes, then a new one etc. but in testing we usually just have to defend against a grab (or whatever) using one of the different possibilites we've learned.

I think it helps to develop more natural reflexes then waiting to be told "Do X technique." One of the most important things when we're being testing on self defense is "Just do something." You don't want to be standing there trying to remember a specific technique if you're on the street.

Finger Jab to the eyes, I understand.
A choke where you use the lapels, I understand.

The names in other languages, I don't understand. :shrug:

Just my 2 cents.

[chufeng]

OK, so don't use the Japanese term...but use the common English language term, such as:

Naked strangle
Sliding lapel choke
Cross arms choke

Outside reaping throw
Major or minor hip throw

Reversed corkscrew punch

etc.

NOT
The one where you like cross your arms, grab his lapel and choke him out... not to be too techniquel or anything

If your system has no common terminology, how can you communicate about it?

If it's all observation...and you're taught in the following way:

If he does this...do this...or this...

and no terms are associated with the demonstrted technique...eventually you get to a popint where your teacher wants you to do one thing but you're doing another.

Does that make any sense?

:asian:
chufeng

[Cliarlaoch]

Originally posted by chufeng
OK, so don't use the Japanese term...but use the common English language term, such as:

Naked strangle
Sliding lapel choke
Cross arms choke

Outside reaping throw
Major or minor hip throw

Reversed corkscrew punch

etc.

NOT

If your system has no common terminology, how can you communicate about it?

If it's all observation...and you're taught in the following way:

If he does this...do this...or this...

and no terms are associated with the demonstrted technique...eventually you get to a popint where your teacher wants you to do one thing but you're doing another.

Does that make any sense?

:asian:
chufeng

Yeah, we've gotten to that point of doing one thing while the instructor says another at my dojang. Not surprising. I say the words "Triangle choke" or "head-and-arm choke" (Kawatahijime, I think, is the Japanese name, could be wrong, of course), etc, and people look at me like I'm speaking Ancient Greek. Not conducive to instruction where I have to show, as opposed to tell, or to learn by being shown. Then again, since the nature of the arts is to do things physically and mentally, perhaps showing works better in some situations for instructing. However, I can see the value in putting a name on techniques... saves word count and breath, if nothing else.

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by chufeng


If your system has no common terminology, how can you communicate about it?



We usually just say choke the bastard and it goes from there.......but hey, least I know how to piss you off now :D

BTW Does anyone know that move where you move his body into that position and push his neck over there and then place your hand on that part of his body where it hurts and then push or pull (cant remember which) on that other part (Forgotten that too) and then move your foot over there? Hope that wasnt too technqual for y'all :D

[Cruentus]

In the Filipino M.A. that I do, the names aren't "standardized" the way they are in other systems. I don't know the names for over half the techniques I know. And the names that I do know, only Old Remy Presas Modern Arnis people, WMAA people, or Balintawak people would know what the heck I am talking about. I could learn the taglog names for the techniques, which could get even more screwed up because just like in English, you could have 5 different names for a technique in taglog, all meaning the same thing.

So, unfortunatily I have to resort to descriptions of techniques all too often, because terminalogy often falls to the wayside in FMA.

Sorry...it's just the way it is.:shrug:

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by PAUL
In the Filipino M.A. that I do, the names aren't "standardized" the way they are in other systems. I don't know the names for over half the techniques I know. And the names that I do know, only Old Remy Presas Modern Arnis people, WMAA people, or Balintawak people would know what the heck I am talking about. I could learn the taglog names for the techniques, which could get even more screwed up because just like in English, you could have 5 different names for a technique in taglog, all meaning the same thing.

So, unfortunatily I have to resort to descriptions of techniques all too often, because terminalogy often falls to the wayside in FMA.

Sorry...it's just the way it is.:shrug:

'Tis true, I could talk to you about Heaven Standard Earth or Redondo or Box Pattern or the 5 angles but I dont think that would really help. I think the only WIDESPREAD FMA terminology is Numerado or Largo armano :asian:

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
'Tis true, I could talk to you about Heaven Standard Earth or Redondo or Box Pattern or the 5 angles but I dont think that would really help. I think the only WIDESPREAD FMA terminology is Numerado or Largo armano :asian:

Luckily through my exposure, I actually do know what your talking about....but I and a few others would be an exeption. The terminology still doesn't help other people from other systems, though.

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by PAUL
Luckily through my exposure, I actually do know what your talking about....but I and a few others would be an exeption. The terminology still doesn't help other people from other systems, though.

...Which was my point in the first place :p

[chufeng]

but hey, least I know how to piss you off now

It will take a lot more than that to piss me off...
If those of you who posted see no reason for a common language within your own art, so be it...

I got it...grunt at each other...at least it would be amusing.

:asian:
chufeng

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by chufeng
It will take a lot more than that to piss me off...
If those of you who posted see no reason for a common language within your own art, so be it...

I got it...grunt at each other...at least it would be amusing.

:asian:
chufeng

There we go! *Pats on back* :D

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by chufeng
It will take a lot more than that to piss me off...
If those of you who posted see no reason for a common language within your own art, so be it...

I got it...grunt at each other...at least it would be amusing.

:asian:
chufeng

We do......and yes, it is very amusing.......:D

[Matt Stone]

I know that the membership here is of higher caliber than this. If you are having trouble seeing the point that Chufeng is trying to make, let me clear it up for you...

I think it goes without saying (but I will say it anyway, since it seems to have been missed, apparently) that there will forever be different names for techniques in different arts from different cultures and countries of origin. Not to mention the ongoing misuse of foreign language terms, the mistranslation of terms from one language to another, ad nauseum. This creates an exponentially expanding base for misunderstanding.

That having been said, there is a finite number of ways in which the human body can move or be manipulated. Period. To say they are infinite is just so much horse poop. The number of variations of any given technique may be quite large, but not infinte by any stretch.

These finite movements have been identified and replicated by arts whose countries of origin are far removed from each other. They have their own names in their own languages. Duh. :rolleyes:

What Chufeng is saying, I think, is that there is a commonality to all the terms. What is called outside wrist twist in Yiliquan is referred to as a backwards throw in Modern Arnis, and Ikkyo (I think) in Aikido. Exact same movement, slightly different method of application, but essentially the same effect. But referring to it as "that thing you do where you grab the other guy's wrist and twist it" is a tad too vague and useless to anyone in this kind of forum. If that is how your instructor refers to techniques in his teaching, from my standpoint he/she is doing you a disservice by failing to give you something, a verbal symbol if you will, with which to refer to the technique and remember it.

Give Chufeng a break and let go of your hangups about your own arts... For some of the arts represented on this forum, in this thread and others, folks seem to argue for their limitations far more often than they try to overcome them...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[sweeper]

well my largest limitation in terminology isn't from my own arts but rather from others that I have relativly little exposure to but was interested in a given aspect, these are also the most likely for me to bring up here because I have the least knowledge of them and posably no directway to inquire about them (where as I can always ask my instructor about andything that we normaly practice), these aspects of the given arts are gona sound a little strange when I relate them because I realy don't know the technique in question.. But also ifI am asking for advise on say JKD in the JKD forum chances are if I use proper terminology wether cantonese or english there will be a few people who will know exactly whatI'm speaking of, and I assume that holds true for other art specific forums here.

[theletch1]

I myself have a very limited exposure to other arts besides kenpo but am always interested in seeing how the other side lives, so to speak. I think that a good description of what the move is that you are discussing

(i.e. ) :right forearm across opponents throat, right hand grasps left bicep, left hand to back of opponents head, apply pressure to throat with forearm while pushing forward with left hand //sleeper//

should be the minimum that you should do out of respect for the other artists here as well as respect for your chosen art. I used terminology that I think most of us understand and then put the name of the choke/technique after the description.

I fully understand the point that Chufeng is trying to make and agree with it. There is no time limit on how long you have to respond to a thread so take your time, think about what you have to say and THEN put finger to keyboard. It will help you get the answer you are searching for a lot quicker if everyone across the spectrumof arts that we have here can understand to which technique you are refering. I still consider myself a newbie in MA so I may one of those guys that needs the "MA for idiots" description :rolleyes:

respecfully,
theletch1:asian

[Yari]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
What Chufeng is saying, I think, is that there is a commonality to all the terms. What is called outside wrist twist in Yiliquan is referred to as a backwards throw in Modern Arnis, and Ikkyo (I think) in Aikido. Exact same movement, slightly different method of application, but essentially the same effect. But referring to it as "that thing you do where you grab the other guy's wrist and twist it" is a tad too vague and useless to anyone in this kind of forum. If that is how your instructor refers to techniques in his teaching, from my standpoint he/she is doing you a disservice by failing to give you something, a verbal symbol if you will, with which to refer to the technique and remember it.


I agree. I would rather use two names that represent the same, knowing what they represent. Arm between legs, lift up arms with arms while legs in between... to hard, and easy to misunderstand.



/Yari

[GaryM]

Originally posted by theletch1
I myself have a very limited exposure to other arts besides kenpo but am always interested in seeing how the other side lives, so to speak. I think that a good description of what the move is that you are discussing

(i.e. ) :right forearm across opponents throat, right hand grasps left bicep, left hand to back of opponents head, apply pressure to throat with forearm while pushing forward with left hand //sleeper//

should be the minimum that you should do out of respect for the other artists here as well as respect for your chosen art. I used terminology that I think most of us understand and then put the name of the choke/technique after the description.

I fully understand the point that Chufeng is trying to make and agree with it. There is no time limit on how long you have to respond to a thread so take your time, think about what you have to say and THEN put finger to keyboard. It will help you get the answer you are searching for a lot quicker if everyone across the spectrumof arts that we have here can understand to which technique you are refering. I still consider myself a newbie in MA so I may one of those guys that needs the "MA for idiots" description :rolleyes:

respecfully,
theletch1:asian This seems like a perfect example of the miss communication that the original post was addressing. I thought that the move described originally was from the front and it would be described in our system something like this; right hand grasps opponents right lapel under his right ear, left hand grasps opponents left lapel under his left ear and by using a sicssors action and pulling opponent towards you a choke is affected by the action of the wrists against the opponents' cartoid arteries. We don't have a technique in our system like this (although we do have a technique against it) but it would be cool if maybe there was a thread for cross refrencing all the terminology and common techniques throws steps blocks strikes chokes ect. There is such a thing in the Kenpo forum but it only has the Kenpo terminology. BTW I really don't know if theletch's take was right or if mine was or if neither of us is. This seems like there may be an opportunity to create some common ground here. Any thoughts?

[theletch1]

It appears that I didn't take my own suggestion about taking your time.:rolleyes: In my RUSH to finish my post I neglected to say "from behind your opponent" or label the move as a choke from the rear.


I thought that the move described originally was from the front and it would be described in our system something like this; right hand grasps opponents right lapel under his right ear, left hand grasps opponents left lapel under his left ear and by using a sicssors action and pulling opponent towards you a choke is affected by the action of the wrists against the opponents' cartoid arteries.

We have this too, and it is from the front. The cross reference that you are asking about may be something to come from the mods request for papers. Great idea. I know that there are tons of different ways to identify things within kenpo so the number should be even greater when taken from all the styles represented here.

respecfully,
theletch1:asian:

[chufeng]

I think the last two responses demonstrate what I was getting at with the original posting of this thread...

Let's not side-track this thread with specific techniques...
Let's discuss WHY common language IS important...

I don't care if it's English, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or whatever...BUT...having a common language to describe technique IS important for the passing on of information...

Students may not appreciate that...but Teachers surely see what I'm getting at (I hope).

:asian:
chufeng

[GaryM]

Originally posted by chufeng


I don't care if it's English, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or whatever...

:asian:
chufeng 1 vote for English. Everything else is Greek to me!

[chufeng]

Gary,

I appreciate your concern...but there are some arts that have a language that is specific to the art...I am not advocating that everyone use English terminology...I am advocating that the student LEARN the language of the system...insofar as the techniques are concerned...and I charge the instructors with the responsibility to share the proper terminology with his/her students.

Hope this helps...

:asian:
chufeng

[Mike Clarke]

When I was in high school [250 B.C.], One of the kids in my class asked our French teacher why they used the term "la port" when speaking about "the door"?
"Why don't they just call it a door?"

Reading this thread has brough that whole sorry afternoon flooding back to me.

Maybe we all need to understand things in our own language, but without a common language within an art, how is it possible to interact with people around the world?

One of the few things I didn't have to worry about much when I went to Okinawa for the first time, was the names of the techniques I'd be doing in the dojo. In fact, understanding the instructions [not completely, but enough to know what we were being asked to do next], was one of the things that gave me the confidence to go on my own in the first place.

Not continuing with the traditional names for the techniques smacks of laziness to me, and is yet another example of people pulling the arts down to suit those who don't have what it takes in their character to climb up to the bar and get over it.

Mike.

[GaryM]

Originally posted by chufeng
Gary,

I appreciate your concern...but there are some arts that have a language that is specific to the art...I am not advocating that everyone use English terminology...I am advocating that the student LEARN the language of the system...insofar as the techniques are concerned...and I charge the instructors with the responsibility to share the proper terminology with his/her students.

Hope this helps...

:asian:
chufeng Of course students should learn the terminology of thier art. That isn't my point. In an open forum such as this those who study other arts cannot decipher what you are talking about if you mention a technique or movement using your art's name for it. Unless you have no interest in sharing knowledge with those outside your art it would be extremly helpful to the 'outsiders' to have these things explained in a common language. Like a dictionary to define common terms used in your art. In the Kenpo forum when a technique is discussed the first thing that we do is to spell out the technique as written in the individual's school so that everyone is on the same page so to speak. There is also a 'dictionary' thread of terminology. Perhaps if each art had something along similar lines and then maybe we could have a master thread that cross referenced all the various arts. I'm sure most every art has what the Kenpo people call an 'inward block' or a 'snap punch' or a 'side kick'. Also if the practitioners described how they perform the technique that they are talking about, differences or variations can be readily discussed. Also questions could be asked about the reasons for certain actions or moves ect.

[sweeper]

a good suggestion, has my vote : )

[chufeng]

A terminology database is a good idea...
Administrators?

:asian:
chufeng

[Cliarlaoch]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


That having been said, there is a finite number of ways in which the human body can move or be manipulated. Period. To say they are infinite is just so much horse poop. The number of variations of any given technique may be quite large, but not infinte by any stretch.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

There actually are infinite ways to move the body... it just requires the jaws of life, a chainsaw, and some patience. Muahaha.


On a serious note, though, I do agree that there is some definite value to maintaining a common term for a technique. At the very least, you should be able to identify it in your own dojang without having to say "Well, do this, and then..." since that makes it all very tedious. Not to mentinon bloody well inefficient for instruction and awareness. Fair enough, Chufeng.