TKD and Christianity

[Jake]

Hi Gang, does TKD have any eastern religion attached to it. I have been looking into different Traditional Martial Arts, and the instructor I have been talking with, does have a lot of eastern religion teachings in his Chinese style of martial art, as well as internal development and healing. From what I have seen so far, TKD seems non-religious, it appears to promote clean ethics, but not religion. thanks in advance for any help.

[granfire]

I think you can't grasp Eastern Martial Arts if you don't at least partially spend some time examine the philosophy (I prefer that over religion) that it sprung from.

TKD has grown to be very international, but it seems to me, as soon as a style moves away from it's philosophical roots it turns more into a sport than into an Art.

having said that, there is in many styles of TKD no reference to religion, though some schools practice meditation.

However, exposure to different cultural aspects makes us grow as a person. I do not see where Eastern religion and Christianity are at odds or exclude each other. One can still be one or the other while adopting a few valuable things from the other!

[Ninjamom]

TKD has as much or as little religious content as the individual instructor chooses to injest into it. Check with your prospective instructor. Visit a few classes. Talk to other students.

In most cases, I don't think you'll have any problem with philosophical or religious overtones contrary to Christianity within TKD.

[exile]

I think you can't grasp Eastern Martial Arts if you don't at least partially spend some time examine the philosophy (I prefer that over religion) that it sprung from.

TKD has grown to be very international, but it seems to me, as soon as a style moves away from it's philosophical roots it turns more into a sport than into an Art.

having said that, there is in many styles of TKD no reference to religion, though some schools practice meditation.

However, exposure to different cultural aspects makes us grow as a person. I do not see where Eastern religion and Christianity are at odds or exclude each other. One can still be one or the other while adopting a few valuable things from the other!

The history of the TMAs suggests that they were born of the need to damage potential attackers for purposes of self preservation. So far as I can tell, the karate that Bushi Matsumura, Chotoko Kyan and Choki Motobu practiced was hard, pitliless and had no philosophical content at all. My guess is, you don't need to understand the Buddhism of the 18th and 19th century Okinawan countryside to get very good at karate any more than you need to be a devout Catholic to become proficient at 16th century Neapolitan rapier fencing methods, another kind of martial art, where the primary intent of training was to kill your opponent as quickly as possible.

The mystification of the martial arts in 20th century marketing has, I believe, left us in the West with a foggy haze of spiritual yearning surrounding what are nothing more or less than sound, effective, very nasty and brutal fighting techniques. But the skills necessary to trap a grabbing attacker and force his head lower to put him in position where you can use a so-called 'down block' to rupture his windpipe have little to do with spirituality, so far as I can see.

[Brian King]

Jake wrote:

“Hi Gang, does TKD have any eastern religion attached to it. I have been looking into different Traditional Martial Arts, and the instructor I have been talking with, does have a lot of eastern religion teachings in his Chinese style of martial art, as well as internal development and healing. From what I have seen so far, TKD seems non-religious, it appears to promote clean ethics, but not religion. thanks in advance for any help.”

And then titled the subject


“TKD and Christianity”

I’m confused Jake
Not sure what Christianity has to do with the body of your post or the question you seem to be asking in that body thus “does TKD have any eastern religion attached to it”. Are you referring to Eastern Orthodoxy when you are asking about eastern religion or are you asking specifically about one of the many Asian originating Religions? If the later why include Christianity in the title, it leaves the thread open for confusion and interpretation in my opinion.

Regards and welcome to the forum
Brian King

[Jake]

Good point Brian, I am new to posting and wasn't thinking when I wrote the title. I am a Christian guy, want to stay away from eastern religion, so I am asking if it is a part of TKD, I should of left 'Christianity' out of the title. Thanks for the welcome.

[arnisador]

Most TKD schools will teach some philosophy but not religion. Some religious instructors will of course teach differently. You're unlikely to have trouble but you'll need to check out the school!

Of course, it may depend on your precise beliefs:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=732

[Laurentkd]

Most TKD schools will teach some philosophy but not religion. Some religious instructors will of course teach differently. You're unlikely to have trouble but you'll need to check out the school!

Of course, it may depend on your precise beliefs:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=732


I think this is the big point. Philosophy is not the same as religion. There are huge parts of eastern philosophy that dove tail right into the Christian religion (emptying of self, showing respect/putting others first, moderation in all things, yielding to be strong, just to name a few). And don't forget, Christianity really is an "eastern" religion, so don't be scared off just because of a label.
Of course, as others have said, it is really all about the instructor and what you are comfortable with. Talk to him/her about what is taught and do what is best for you.

[Brian King]

As others have said Jake it is often up to the instructor and the school. You are going to be spending a lot of time training and around those that you train with. You will need to be comfortable with not only the training but the philosophy of both the art and the instructor teaching the art.

I do not know much about TKD so cannot advise about that. I do know that there are more choices than ever now as far as types of training available. Take you time and find the art and the instructor that fits you and fits you perfectly. No instructor worth their salt will mind you asking questions or taking your business somewhere else that better gives you what you are seeking. Instructors make an investment in students of time and energy and want the best fit as well. When you find that fit it allows the training to reach its true potential. Stick to your convections and you will find the art and instructor and training that God means for you to find.

One option perhaps is to ask around at your church and see what arts others are taking. Perhaps there is a member of your church that has a lot of prior training and might be open to forming a study group at the church. I have heard of a bunch of Systema study groups at various churches as an example.

Good luck in your search Jake and as you are already doing communication is key
Warmest Regards
Brian King

[dancingalone]

Hi Gang, does TKD have any eastern religion attached to it. I have been looking into different Traditional Martial Arts, and the instructor I have been talking with, does have a lot of eastern religion teachings in his Chinese style of martial art, as well as internal development and healing. From what I have seen so far, TKD seems non-religious, it appears to promote clean ethics, but not religion. thanks in advance for any help.

There are any number of TKD teachers who add a Christian slant to the art if that is your desire. Google for "Karate for Christ" and then check on their site to see if there is an affiliated instructor in your area.

[Deaf Smith]

I've been under three Korean Grandmasters. Two were atheist (but one converted to Catholic on his death bed), and I'm not sure of the third one.

I have seen no influence of any particular religion in TKD. Difference between right and wrong, yes, but no religion.

Now I'm a Catholic. And I have found many a decent person in every religion I've bumped into (and atheist for that matter.) I've also found awful people in every religion as well as atheist.

But when one is dieing, there is truth in the statement, "There ain't no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole".

Deaf

[kaizasosei]

there were some issues in the news in asia recently. where china became slightly enraged by the claims that korea was the origin of the ijing, fengshui and even chinese writing. -

japan very subtley joined in the bashing noting how korea has no qualms about adopting the japanese sword or judo without recognizing or valuing the (true?!) origins..

i dont remember the details but then china made a list of most disliked countries, and japan was not at the top but i believe korea and indonesia.

btw, was jesus korean??? :-)

j

[FearlessFreep]

I'm a Christian you practices TKD (wtih some minoring in Hapkido and some others) and I've never and I've occasionally seen some bleed over of philosophical concepts into mechanical application (push/pull... positive/negative force express as ying/yang) but nothing really overt or bothersome (to me).

I've always appreciated that TKD is a very mechanical, practical art. TKD works because of physics and bio-mechanics and should be of affront to nobody's spiritual sensibilities.

Individual teacher interpretation and application may vary

[exile]

I
I've always appreciated that TKD is a very mechanical, practical art. TKD works because of physics and bio-mechanics and should be of affront to nobody's spiritual sensibilities.


Yes, yes, yes. It's long past time that we dropped the Karate Kid `ancient Asian wisdom' mystification of the fighting systems people used out of necessity, because there weren't LEOs around to protect them.

[IcemanSK]

There are Christians that practice their faith & every MA from Kung Fu, Aikido, to BJJ & TKD. If after talking to an instructor, you are not comfortable training under them (for whatever reason) I'd say look elsewhere. I can honestly say that there are some of my fellow Christians that I would choose not to train under. There is not (nor should there be) any "automatic" in who someone "should" train with.

I wish you all the best in your search for a school that you are comfortable with.:asian:

[Deaf Smith]

Yes, yes, yes. It's long past time that we dropped the Karate Kid `ancient Asian wisdom' mystification of the fighting systems people used out of necessity, because there weren't LEOs around to protect them.

Exile, I hated that show, 'The Karate Kid'. And I thought the other guy in the last tourmanmet in the show cleaned the floor with him. I'm of the school,"The race does not necessarily go to the strongest or fastest, but that's the way to bet".

I see such things as meditation and healing as being a part of the martial arts and how to clear ones mind to concentrate, but religion itself? No. I hope the person has already found their God before joining any martial art, least they find a cult instead.

Deaf

[exile]

Exile, I hated that show, 'The Karate Kid'. And I thought the other guy in the last tourmanmet in the show cleaned the floor with him. I'm of the school,"The race does not necessarily go to the strongest or fastest, but that's the way to bet".

I'm with you on that, DS.


I see such things as meditation and healing as being a part of the martial arts and how to clear ones mind to concentrate, but religion itself? No.

Exactly. I used to be an alpine ski racer, and we did meditation exercises... for visualization of the course, for discharging distracting or self-defeating thoughts, for calmness and breathing control. But there was no actual 'cosmology' involved, nothing that involved questions of the kind that the OP has been raising. I think of these things as kind of the psychological/emotional analogue of stretching... musicians do this before performances, calligraphers do the same thing when they start work on an important piece of writing... it's just common sense to give yourself the maximum focus and clarity. But religion? As you say, no.


hope the person has already found their God before joining any martial art, lest they find a cult instead.

Deaf

Yes again. One of the problems we as Westerners face is that we don't really understand the cultural context in which the combat arts, and combat itself, are located in the Asian societies where they originated. You can't understand another culture without living in it for decades, and even then, it's kind of like the difference between your own first language and the French or Russian you learn in high school or university: totally different kinds of knowledge. Or another way I think of it: you can't share someone else's nostalgia. The places from their childhood that have certain kinds of intense significance for them are not going to have anything like the same often inexpressible meaning for you, and vice versa. We are who we are, our own cultures play a significant part in defining us, and it's just not possible to borrow bits and pieces of other people's culture that we almost certainly do not really understand.

People who go looking in other cultures to fill in gaps they perceive in their own are very, very vulnerable to the cult-trap you refer to.

[FearlessFreep]

you can't share someone else's nostalgia.

I worthy enough thought to be called out...

[igillman]

One of our instructors is a 5th Dan and is also a Christian Preacher so he doesn't seem to mind. To echo some of the things that have already been said, I have not seen or heard any religion being pushed in TKD. Yes we do sit quietly for a few minutes after a 2 minute break. They call it meditation, I call it time to get my breath back.

Now for my 2 cents...
There is no such thing as "forbidden knowledge" and I would take a close look at anyone or anything that tells you not to learn something. Knowledge never killed anyone, it is what you do, not know, that causes all the problems. Learn about other religions and other cultures, it will help you understand your own a whole lot better. You will get a new appreciation for people, cultures and lives when you can understand how they think and what they believe.

Do not be afraid to learn, to seek out and to find. Do not build up artificial walls beyond which you will not go, they will only imprison you in the most inpenetrable prison you can make, your mind.

Last words...
Sit back, relax and enjoy Tae Kwon Do for what it is, a martial art full of high, spinning and jumping kicks. A great workout, a wonderful adventure and a new group of people to meet.

You have nothing to fear but fear itself.

[rchurch]

Exactly, igillman. Religion and martial arts do not have to go hand in hand. That's like asking, "If I buy a Japanese car, do I have to join their religion, too?"

Keep an open mind. There is nothing wrong with learning something new, and meditation, herbal medicines, etc. aren't religion based. It's all a part of being human, and learning. That's all. You can be a Christian and lots of other things at the same time.

[YoungMan]

Traditional Taekwondo incorporates aspects of Eastern philosophy (respect for life, non-violence unless your safety is threatened, respect to seniors, Um/Yang), but it is not a religion and should not be married to religion. Instructors who try to use Taekwondo to promote a particular religion are way off base and do themselves and the art a disservice.
The concept of adding Oriental philosophy to Korean martial arts goes back 1500 years when Won Kwang developed the 5 Point Code of ethics to for the Hwa Rang. Modern Taekwondo has always incorporated philosophy into it, to temper the power and potential ability to hurt and kill with respect for humanity.

[punisher73]

Okinawan karate was concerned with one thing and one thing only and that was to disable your attacker as quickly as possible. It wasn't until karate was exported to Japan that the "Way of...." got added onto it. The arts became more concerned with japaese ideals of character development (translation: how to make good obeying soldiers) and doing everything the "right way" (translation: good soldiers all doing the same thing).

If you look at the training in Japan during the early karate years it would set up more along the lines of military training to prepare young men for service in the empire. Okinawan training originally favored the relationship between the student and teacher, so each student would learn a little different based on his build etc.

Do your research, and find out what the teacher teaches or believes. While many arts may have a spiritual component it is not required for the student to accept that to advance (aikido comes to mind), there are other arts that belief in it is a requirement, I remember reading about a branch of silat that requires practicioners to channel the spirits to be taught new things. For the most part though, I think teachers leave the religious part of it up to the student and may talk about philosophy which sometimes borders on a religious aspect.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hi Gang, does TKD have any eastern religion attached to it. I have been looking into different Traditional Martial Arts, and the instructor I have been talking with, does have a lot of eastern religion teachings in his Chinese style of martial art, as well as internal development and healing. From what I have seen so far, TKD seems non-religious, it appears to promote clean ethics, but not religion. thanks in advance for any help.
The tenets of taekwondo are very generic and mesh very well with Christianity, and indeed, with most other religions.

There are expressly Christian taekwondo schools, just as I imagine that there are expressly Budhist taekwondo schools, though I've never practiced in either. My GM is Christian, but aside from knowing that from general conversation with him, it isn't part of the curriculum. All of the schools that I have been a part of are areligious.

Daniel

[MBuzzy]

Just my $0.02 (probably worth much less)....

My biggest caution would be to not "impose" religion into the schools that you go to. In today's world, I think that you would be very hard pressed to actually find a TKD school that was eastern religion based - or even brought it up. In fact, you may have an equally hard time finding a Japanese or even Chinese school that is religion based. Unless they specifically, "The Buddha says...." or something to that effect....it is probably not related to religion, just something that we happen to associate (wrongly) with Eastern religions, instead of simply "Eastern thinking and ways of doing things"

I have heard many who associate certain practices with religion, where there isn't necessarily an association. Bowing or kneeling for example, is only a sign of respect and has nothing to do with religion. You mentioned Internal Development and Healing....many of those things are not religious. They may be sometimes taught in a religious context, but in many cases, have nothing to do with religion. Acupuncture, eastern massage, even the idea of Chi/Ki is all based in science, not religion. The idea of internal power or chi is more than anything a visualization method and a way of teaching people to channel their energy. It just ties something that you already have to an abstract concept that can be visualized.

Also, a good deal of Korea is Christian now anyway.....so if it was an issue, I'm sure that TKD would not be the national sport!

[phatbway]

I would rather not go to a Dojo to hear about, or be taught "religion' or 'christianity". i go there to learn to defend my self and protect my loved ones.

the end.

[exile]

I would rather not go to a Dojo to hear about, or be taught "religion' or 'christianity". i go there to learn to defend my self and protect my loved ones.

the end.

Totally reasonable, and I suspect that that's the view of most people who seek out MA training. It's a (very) useful skill, period. Anything more that someone wants to add... well, exactly the same thing could probably be added to learning the violin, or downhill skiing.

But it would be an add-on, not something inherent in the activity itself.

[IcemanSK]

Totally reasonable, and I suspect that that's the view of most people who seek out MA training. It's a (very) useful skill, period. Anything more that someone wants to add... well, exactly the same thing could probably be added to learning the violin, or downhill skiing.

But it would be an add-on, not something inherent in the activity itself.


You are quite right about it being an "add-on" to how most folks teach. There are folks who want an MA program based around their shared faith for a variety of reasons (Fear/discomfort/misunderstanding of what "Eastern Philosophy" might entail,) is a big one for some.

I currently teach a "secular" TKD program in my church. At other churches, I might teach class that adds prayer & study that connects Christian principles with the tenents of TKD. For some, this type of class would be helpful. For others, it would be a hindurance to the experience. Heck, for some Koreans who now live in the US, it's merely a way to connect their kids to their culture. There are many reasons why folks train where & how they do.

[zDom]

I prefer a "separation of Martial Arts and Religion" myself :)

[Mimir]

Like what many others have said, this really depends on the school. There are many TKD schools that are Christian oriented, just as there are others that like to add eastern religon to the mix. Find a place that you are comfortable with and have fun!

[YoungMan]

Learning Taekwondo without the philosophy that shapes it would be like learning how to use a firearm without being taught respect for human life and responsibility.
You don't need to practice any particular religion to do Taekwondo, but you should absolutely be respectful of the philosophies that are a part of it. Otherwise you run the risk of becoming a thug.

[exile]

Learning Taekwondo without the philosophy that shapes it would be like learning how to use a firearm without being taught respect for human life and responsibility.
You don't need to practice any particular religion to do Taekwondo, but you should absolutely be respectful of the philosophies that are a part of it. Otherwise you run the risk of becoming a thug.

This I don't understand. Most people I know come to the study of the martial arts with an ethical world view that other people would regard as perfectly fine. They already know about 'respect for human life and responsibility', as part of how they were raised, their experience of life with other people and so on. When they learn a martial art, TKD or anything else, the same things that constrain them in the use of violence in other areas constrain them in their use of the MA they've learned.

Think of it this way: does your education in the morality of violence begin with your introduction to firearms? As many people on MT point out, the vast majority of gun owners do not use their weapons to inflict damage on the innocent. Did they only learn that principle when they applied for their gun license? Or was it part of their ethical makeup from early on? What you learn when you're introduced to a weapon is safety procedure and due care and caution; but the ethical foundations themselves... those, you'd better already have. Are you going to learn the Golden Rule or whatever from your firearms instructor?

I think it's the same with the MAs. You aren't going to be learning fundamental ethics only at the point where you start doing TKD, karate, hapkido or whatever; if you are, you've been in biiiiig trouble for all of your life before then. I can think of a hundred people I know who might, at one point or another, decide to take up TKD, and not one of them needs any more ethical training to be a decent person and a responsible exponent of that or any other MA than they already have. If you wait to get your ethics from your MA instructor, it's WAY too late in the game, IMO. And if you don't have a fundamentally decent way of dealing with other people by that point, are you really going to acquire one in a TKD class?

[Cirdan]

Learning Taekwondo without the philosophy that shapes it would be like learning how to use a firearm without being taught respect for human life and responsibility.
You don't need to practice any particular religion to do Taekwondo, but you should absolutely be respectful of the philosophies that are a part of it. Otherwise you run the risk of becoming a thug.

You do not "risk" becoming a thug. It is a choise. Having an atmosphere of respect in the club is as far as it goes.

[Marginal]

One of our instructors is a 5th Dan and is also a Christian Preacher so he doesn't seem to mind. To echo some of the things that have already been said, I have not seen or heard any religion being pushed in TKD. Yes we do sit quietly for a few minutes after a 2 minute break. They call it meditation, I call it time to get my breath back.

Now for my 2 cents...
There is no such thing as "forbidden knowledge" and I would take a close look at anyone or anything that tells you not to learn something. Knowledge never killed anyone, it is what you do, not know, that causes all the problems. Learn about other religions and other cultures, it will help you understand your own a whole lot better. You will get a new appreciation for people, cultures and lives when you can understand how they think and what they believe.


If one's faith is so flimsy that hearing about another religion or philosophy shatters it, it wasn't a faith worth mentioning in the first place.

[FearlessFreep]

If one's faith is so flimsy that hearing about another religion or philosophy shatters it, it wasn't a faith worth mentioning in the first place.

I don't think that's really an issue..

If you were not a vegetarian but attended a school where the head instructor was a vegetarian and regularly talked about the importance of a vegetarian diet to develop the proper body to be successful at TKD, you may not be tempted to become a vegetarian, but it would be distracting and get pretty wearisome.

[MBuzzy]

I don't think that's really an issue..

If you were not a vegetarian but attended a school where the head instructor was a vegetarian and regularly talked about the importance of a vegetarian diet to develop the proper body to be successful at TKD, you may not be tempted to become a vegetarian, but it would be distracting and get pretty wearisome.

Although Marginal makes an excellent point, you're right, generally people don't like to hear opinions that are in contradiction to their own. Especially in the cases of Politics and religion. Particularly in Religion, it is one of those things, where if you're wrong, it can have huge consequences for some people - and if you believe something, generally you don't want to attend a school where an opposing belief is taught regularly.

Why aren't there more vegetarians? Because of the social influence and extreme control that it takes. It takes a very very strong person to hold a belief like that and persist in the face of literally everyone around them who doesn't practice it or share it.

But with all of that said....if you really do believe something, it shouldn't matter what those around you say.

[Deaf Smith]

Learning Taekwondo without the philosophy that shapes it would be like learning how to use a firearm without being taught respect for human life and responsibility.
You don't need to practice any particular religion to do Taekwondo, but you should absolutely be respectful of the philosophies that are a part of it. Otherwise you run the risk of becoming a thug.

Youngman,

I was a gun owner and competiton shot before I even got into TKD in college. Before TKD I was known as a nice guy (uncoordinated nice guy, but still a nice guy.)

I do like the fact that most martial arts at least pay lip service to their 'tennets' or 'oaths' or whatever, even Krav Maga has such, but there are pleny of creeps and thugs that would take some of the classes and just mumble the words. And some martial arts don't mess around with the 'art' so much and emphasis the 'martial' and thus the lessons can be learned fast.

But even I supect some of martial arts have their oaths and tennets just to keep the public and law at bay.

One has better have a good grounding in their moral world, as well as physiological world, before they spend time in a martal art. They will learn (hopefully) respect, perseverance, humility, and displine, but right or wrong has better have been already learned.

Deaf

[YoungMan]

If you take the philosophy out of Taekwondo and martial arts you have UFC.
Keep in mind, Taekwondo philosophy has from the beginning dictated how its students are to act. Why is this important? Because there are many people, especially those from questionable backgrounds (dysfunctional families etc.) who weren't raised with a moral code. One of my colleagues has many students like this. Often, Taekwondo philosophy has been the only real morality they've been exposed to.

[Ninjamom]

And what philosophy is that?


I have been in many different TKD schools, all of which might have some common 'dojang rules', but these are no more enforced than making sure people take their shoes off and bow at the appropriate times. As far as morality, TKD (like football, or baseball, or swim team, or the chess club) shows through experience that diligence and hard work are good and pay dividends. Like any other difficult, challenging activity, it provides a goal, and as a result, provides positive self esteem when the goal is met.

I must ask if your school teaches the code of the Hwa Rang for ethics. Mine doesn't. We don't learn what the five principles of TKD are (courtesy, integrity, perseverence, self control, indomitable spirit) until blue or brown belt. We recite 10 principles every class, and each belt test includes a one-sentence definition of one of these principles (strong spirit, effort, patience, attitude, self confidence, respect, mind control, honesty, loyalty, victory), but they are pretty generic.

I maintain that all moral, philosophical, and/or religious content in TKD is at the discretion of the individual school, and not a required part of TKD.

[Marginal]

I don't think that's really an issue..

If you were not a vegetarian but attended a school where the head instructor was a vegetarian and regularly talked about the importance of a vegetarian diet to develop the proper body to be successful at TKD, you may not be tempted to become a vegetarian, but it would be distracting and get pretty wearisome.
Perhaps, but how many TKD classes spent a lot of time on Voodoo etc? You get people freaking out because they might have to bow before they step on the floor. Or bellowing about having only one master when told to use the therm "master" in reference to an instructor etc.

These people are flakes. Not people with a deep, credible faith.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Perhaps, but how many TKD classes spent a lot of time on Voodoo etc? You get people freaking out because they might have to bow before they step on the floor. Or bellowing about having only one master when told to use the therm "master" in reference to an instructor etc.
Thankfully, I've never encountered any in a martial arts setting, though I know that they're out there.


These people are flakes. Not people with a deep, credible faith.
Flakes can have deep, credible faith and still be flakes... unfortunately.

Daniel

[Marginal]

Thankfully, I've never encountered any in a martial arts setting, though I know that they're out there.


Flakes can have deep, credible faith and still be flakes... unfortunately.

Daniel
I understand what you're getting at. I don't see it that way however. If you have a solid, credible faith, minor things like that won't bug you. There are religious groups that think studying any MA opens you up to demonic possession, that if you don't spend all your time meditating on how much you love your god of choice, that means you're lost to evil.

People may believe this, they may have centered the whole of their lives about this kind of belief. IMO it's a belief rooted in fear and designed to control the practitioners rather than provide any form of enlightenment. As such, it's an extremely brittle kind of faith.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I understand what you're getting at. I don't see it that way however. If you have a solid, credible faith, minor things like that won't bug you. There are religious groups that think studying any MA opens you up to demonic possession, that if you don't spend all your time meditating on how much you love your god of choice, that means you're lost to evil.

People may believe this, they may have centered the whole of their lives about this kind of belief. IMO it's a belief rooted in fear and designed to control the practitioners rather than provide any form of enlightenment. As such, it's an extremely brittle kind of faith.
Control by a group is actually external to any true faith that the person may or may not have. Some people realize through either actual study or contact with believers ourside of their group that they're just being manipulated, come out of the group, yet maintain their faith, practicing it in a healthier atmosphere.

Outside of such groups, you have people who early in their conversion developed those attitudes when their belief may have been shakey and simply continued to maintain them out of force of habit.

I see most of this as a crude, self imposed aceticism underpinned by a lack of genuine scripture knowledge, at least in the Christians that fall into the category you describe (I can't speak for other belief systems).

Daniel

[ganglian]

Hi Gang, does TKD have any eastern religion attached to it. I have been looking into different Traditional Martial Arts, and the instructor I have been talking with, does have a lot of eastern religion teachings in his Chinese style of martial art, as well as internal development and healing. From what I have seen so far, TKD seems non-religious, it appears to promote clean ethics, but not religion. thanks in advance for any help.


I apologize in advance if I am violating anything, some boards have rules about leaving religion at the door, but you did ask. I find it more annoying when religion, Evangelican Christian Fundamentalism in particular has to attach it's label to anything everything it's followers do.

Tae Kwon Do is what is it is, you do it athe Dojang, or fill in the art of your choice, and do it at the dojo, training hall, or what have you, AND church is church, and most Churches, Mosques, Cynagogs, temples don't have you doing chop sockey as part of the service.

Apples and oranges and thats where it should be kept, IN, my opinion.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I apologize in advance if I am violating anything, some boards have rules about leaving religion at the door, but you did ask. I find it more annoying when religion, Evangelican Christian Fundamentalism in particular has to attach it's label to anything everything it's followers do.
Sometimes I think it is appropriate, but generally I think it is a matter of religious over compensating.

Daniel