Out in the open. Correct way to throw side kick. Sharp difference of oppinion.

[Babook]

Here is the thing. This is not about how a chamber should look like or a snap kick or thrust kick. This is about the non-kicking leg. One straightforward question. Toes away from the target or toes don't move.
When I first learned it I was taught keep the non-kicking leg any way that's comfortable. No disrespect to my past instructor, but he did not know much. Since then I took seminars, watched tapes, asked few more instructors who unfortunately did not know much. ( I was going to say something else instead of much, but this is a respectable forum, so I won't do such a thing.)
I go back and fourth between Stretching Scientifically and ElasticSteel.
I respect both men, but they have a sharp difference of oppinion on how the side kick should be thrown. Kurz says toes to the side and both lean forward. Zaichik says toes back and body in one line.

My back hurts doing the way Kurz does it, but I can't turn the toes like Zaichik does it.

This is Kurz way of throwing.
http://www.stadion.com/gif/yokohand.jpg

Here he does the leg lift to the side for it.

http://www.stadion.com/gif/Raises.jpg



This is Zaichik's video where he precisely shows that the leg must be turned complitely away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALUi1b5Dtog

Here he also explains a bunch of different things about a side kick, notice his non-kicking leg is always turned directly away from the kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8HLJenYKeQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lai_gGpb4k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG1v6pPt-4w

Which way do you throw your side kick.
Which way do you think is the right way to throw the side kick?

[exile]

Which way do you throw your side kick.
Which way do you think is the right way to throw the side kick?

In TKD, it's pretty much generally accepted that your standing leg pivots so that your heel faces the target and forms a single line with your hips, shoulders and the direction of the kicking leg. That configuration not only gives you the tremendous power of TKD's 'open hip' kicking method, but in addition minimizes wear and tear on the connective tissue in your knee. There seems to be a remarkable amount of unanimity on this point (given how much else people find to argue heatedly about in TKD). That's the way I do it myself. As for the 'right' way... well, as I say, I think this method combines maximum force generation with minimum stress on joints, and I'll leave it at that. :wink1:

[Sukerkin]

For a different point of view entirely, how I was taught to do side kicks in Lau Gar was with the non-kicking foot perpendicular to the target (i.e. you are sideways on) - this was especially so when performing the stepping side-kicks that are used to halt a charging opponent.

[jks9199]

For a different point of view entirely, how I was taught to do side kicks in Lau Gar was with the non-kicking foot perpendicular to the target (i.e. you are sideways on) - this was especially so when performing the stepping side-kicks that are used to halt a charging opponent.
Which is also the way I tend to do a side kick; my support toes are (mostly) perpindicular to the target. On a stepping side kick, I may be more in line due to the step, not a pivot. They're not truly perpindicular, but once I put the foot down -- it's down.

[chrispillertkd]

When executing a side kick the base leg (non-kicking leg) pivots so your body mass is better mobilized. This is in combination with rolling the hip, of course. The base leg is flexed, not locked, at the knee. Its toes point away from the target but the heel is not pointing straight at the target. Rather, the toes of the base leg are about 75 degrees outwards if you draw an imaginary line perpindicular to the heel of the non-kicking leg at the moment of impact. This prevents the body from rolling into a back kick position.

Also, I think it's important to note that the base leg foot pivots THROUGH OUT the execution of the kick. It does not pivot and then the kick is executed as this will reduce the power one gets from mobilizing the body's mass.

FWIW, this is all from an ITF Taekwon-Do view point so YMMV. I have found, however, that this method can result in an increase in power when done correctly.

Pax,

Chris

[Brad Dunne]

My back hurts doing the way Kurz does it, ..............Then don't do it that way.................but I can't turn the toes like Zaichik does it. Try only moving the pivot foot 45 degrees instead of the full 90 degrees. There is a lot more to the stretching that includes the back muscles, the interior groin area muscles, plus the ham strings play an important role also. It's always a plus to be able to kick like these guys do, but everybody is different. Don't get to overly depressed about hight, for with hight comes a certain lose of power and balance. Take your time and give your body a chance to adjust to what your asking it to do.

[Deaf Smith]

In TKD, it's pretty much generally accepted that your standing leg pivots so that your heel faces the target and forms a single line with your hips, shoulders and the direction of the kicking leg. That configuration not only gives you the tremendous power of TKD's 'open hip' kicking method, but in addition minimizes wear and tear on the connective tissue in your knee. There seems to be a remarkable amount of unanimity on this point (given how much else people find to argue heatedly about in TKD). That's the way I do it myself. As for the 'right' way... well, as I say, I think this method combines maximum force generation with minimum stress on joints, and I'll leave it at that. :wink1:


This is the way we kick to. I will also say there are many variations of the side kick (and snap kick and round house to.) There are people who's physical limitations keep them from doing a particular type of kick, and thus one needs to find what version of the kick works best for them. If the kick hurts doing Kurz's method, do it another way.

Don't try to force yourself to bend into a pretzel to match the art. Sometimes the art has to bend some to.

Deaf

[Babook]

Yep, sometimes the art has to bend.

What I see is two very repsectable sport science experts, saying two different things. I guess in my own mind, I want to hear that this one is right and this one is wrong.
I also understand what Zaichik does because he has many youtube videos explaining it. Kurz has book and dvd explains it as well as articles in his site, but it's not the same as actuall seeing a video.
There is also age difference Zaichik's kicks are spectacular and obvioulsy faster and better looking then Kurz, but former is younger then later. (At least I assume so)

I have to say it's frustrating when you have instructors who have great kicks, yet can't help you when you need help. Too often I am told to keep kicking. I know there is more then that.

Thank you ladies and gentelmen for your replies.

[exile]

This is the way we kick to. I will also say there are many variations of the side kick (and snap kick and round house to.) There are people who's physical limitations keep them from doing a particular type of kick, and thus one needs to find what version of the kick works best for them. If the kick hurts doing Kurz's method, do it another way.

Don't try to force yourself to bend into a pretzel to match the art. Sometimes the art has to bend some to.

Deaf

Very well said, Deaf. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Deaf Smith]

I'll say this to.

It's a poor instructor that does not know those variations of kicks and punches and can not, or will not, help a student find what works for them.

Deaf

[kaizasosei]

'whatever floats your boat'

i personally, having been influenced by karate and taekwondo, my base leg heel turns to face the kicking direction. so the base foots toes are pointing in the opposite 180 degree direction of the kick if not just slightly less for little more stability. i find there is quite a bit of power in body dynamics that can be drawn from doing this twist at the right time. not only twist, but at the moment of impact, the toes pointing out is sortof like forcing the legs open into a split position. this adds to stability and forward power of the kick.

j

[jks9199]

I have to say it's frustrating when you have instructors who have great kicks, yet can't help you when you need help. Too often I am told to keep kicking. I know there is more then that.

Thank you ladies and gentelmen for your replies.


I'll say this to.

It's a poor instructor that does not know those variations of kicks and punches and can not, or will not, help a student find what works for them.

Deaf

There may not be any malice; the instructors may be simply teaching as they were taught, and as worked for them, and may not be able to expand on or explain further.

[exile]

There may not be any malice; the instructors may be simply teaching as they were taught, and as worked for them, and may not be able to expand on or explain further.

This is a very good point, and goes well beyond issues of particular techniques. The danger is rote education, and as you suggest, the two are linked: today's rote learner is tomorrow's rote teacher. Repetition is necessary to perfect a skill, but understanding the technical basis for that skill—what's involved, how it's supposed to work and what it's supposed to do—make all the difference in the world to students.

[FearlessFreep]

Kurz is talking about the sidekick motion for the sake of stretching the muscles to increase a certain kind of flexibility.

AFAIK, this has nothing to do with actually throwing a side kick for impact

[Deaf Smith]

A wise instructor not only knows his style but understands other styles. Not saying they need multiple black belts (but that's not a bad idea in itself) but some brodening. Once you have established your base, expand your horizons. Like the other thread here where the Tang So Do instructor takes his students to other schools. That's a wise and farsighted teacher.

I've been to other schools besides TKD. In fact right now I'm in Soo Bahk Do and I've always read alot of what Bruce Lee wrote about JKD (and at heart I'm a JKDist I guess.)

Don't be blind to other methods than what one's school or style dictate.

Deaf

[astrobiologist]

Having mostly a Tang Soo Do background, I will usually pivot the supporting leg and foot so that the heel turns towards the target on a thrusting side kick. I don't turn the foot completely to 180 degrees; probably closer to 135-145 degrees. However, for a low side kick (looks like a stomp to the knee, lower leg, or ankle) I will only turn the supporting foot to the perpendicular.

[jukado1]

In order to get the most POWER from a side kick you should be torquing your hips into your kick, The toes should be pointing away from the target with an explosive movement, And in order to do so you should have your supporting knee bent and your weight to the front /over the toes of your support leg, The pivot is done by snapping your HEEL in to the pivot, Your toes just follow your heel.

[Mimir]

If you look at the kick in terms of body mechanics, the power of the kick starts with the support leg. If you think about the forces, if your foot is at only 90 degrees then the force is being applied to the side of your knee (trying to bend this joint in a way is was not meant to be bent). If your foot is turned 180 degrees, then the force is applied in a manner that is consistant with how the knee joint works. This is the how the reason for the full pivot was explained to me.

[zDom]

If you look at the kick in terms of body mechanics, the power of the kick starts with the support leg. If you think about the forces, if your foot is at only 90 degrees then the force is being applied to the side of your knee (trying to bend this joint in a way is was not meant to be bent). If your foot is turned 180 degrees, then the force is applied in a manner that is consistant with how the knee joint works. This is the how the reason for the full pivot was explained to me.

Yep. Also, for me at least, it feels better at the hips, too, to have the foot fully pivoted — especially at mid and high section.

[aqaz69]

I tried side kicking and pulled my laterals on the first try.

If I'm gonna bbe a mma fighter, I better remember to stretch before every technique!

[Cirdan]

We place the toes pointing 135 degrees away from the opponent and our shoulders on a line towards the guy. Turning the hips even more and pointing the lower leg directly at the target it almost becomes a back kick. Moving the heel as you kick is murder on the knee if you try it on rough ground wearing shoes, not reccomended if you want to be practicing in old age.

[Phoenix44]

I don't think this is an issue of "right" or "wrong." You have to adapt your art to your body.

[thardey]

I use both methods, depending on what I'm trying to accomplish.

The kick that generates the most "penetration" (I.E., the kind that will "dent" a heavy bag, but not move it, or will break a board) uses the twisting of the hips at the last second to generate tremendous speed at the moment of impact.

Pros: Breaks boards, and by extention, floating ribs. (:ultracool) It also transfers a higher amount of Kinetic Energy.

Cons: The chamber and kick itself is more complicated, and can take a fraction of a second longer. Also, the distance has to be judged perfectly to get the maximum potential out of this kind of kick. And, as someone mentioned, twisting the foot after you've placed in on the ground can be tricky in some "real life" applications. (Like when wearing footwear with "sticky" soles.)

The kick that will cause the heavy bag to swing violently, and will throw the guy holding the board across the room, is where you don't pivot the foot, allowing your body weight to lean forward, into the target.

Pros: Is more likely to stop a charging opponent, which makes for a nice defensive kick. It is simpler to execute, which gives you a fraction of a second. This kick transfers more of your Body weight, which means you'll get more of a transfer of Momentum. This kick is more likely to move your opponent, but not to hurt them as much. (I.E. you'll launch them out of the ring, but they won't feel as much pain.)

[Babook]

Anyone saw that Bruce Lee Video on youtube (the lost one) where he is talking about a kick having to have both snap and thrust. I think snap was for speed and thrust for power.

[Daniel Sullivan]

In TKD, it's pretty much generally accepted that your standing leg pivots so that your heel faces the target and forms a single line with your hips, shoulders and the direction of the kicking leg. That configuration not only gives you the tremendous power of TKD's 'open hip' kicking method, but in addition minimizes wear and tear on the connective tissue in your knee. There seems to be a remarkable amount of unanimity on this point (given how much else people find to argue heatedly about in TKD). That's the way I do it myself. As for the 'right' way... well, as I say, I think this method combines maximum force generation with minimum stress on joints, and I'll leave it at that. :wink1:
And I will second this statement, particularly the last sentence, which I have bolded.

Early on in TKD, I developed the 'bad' habit of keeping my planted foot perpendicular to the target. My kicks were high and quite powerful. I carried this habbit with me into TKD when I took it back up at the age of 39. Within a year, particularly on turning kicks, it was bothering my hip. I retrained myself to deliver my round kicks and side kicks with my planted foot inline with my body and my heal pointed at the target and all pain magically went away. Took me a while to regain my power an height, but it was well worth it.

Just my own experience.

Daniel

[Sukerkin]

That's interesting, CT. Thanks for sharing that 'snapshot' of how age and experience can bring to light what youthful vigour can hide from us.

Because my empty hand background is very different (Lau Gar), the techniques described sound very wrong to me {:D} but it seems within the style under discussion a definite concensus exists as to the 'right' way :tup:.

[Marginal]

That's interesting, CT. Thanks for sharing that 'snapshot' of how age and experience can bring to light what youthful vigour can hide from us.

Because my empty hand background is very different (Lau Gar), the techniques described sound very wrong to me {:D} but it seems within the style under discussion a definite concensus exists as to the 'right' way :tup:.
A lot of it depends on how you chamber the kick. If you're going with a more karate styled side kick, you don't really need to pivot on the supporting foot. When you start chambering a side kick the way it's done in most Korean styles, then the pivot becomes necessary. (Also ends up being helpful if you need to cover distance with a sliding side kick. If your supporting foot's not in line, you really feel it in the knee and hip.)

[tko4u]

We have always been taught to "pivot" our rear foot, so toes away.