Geometry

[chufeng]

I asked this question on our web site...
it will be interesting to see what answers I get here...

What is the significance of the circle, the triangle, and the square within your martial art?

(Yes, I borrowed the idea from Aikido, but it's still relevant)

:asian:
chufeng

[MartialArtist]

:shrug: I'm not a personal supporter of an art having one specified idea, but again, it depends on the person. Something like hsing-yi, is not suitable for everyone. I personally like to circle in wrestling and boxing, and sometimes I like to go straight in. It depends on the opponent. I like to view it as there is no emphasis on any one shape.

And by circling, I mean at the right moment. I've seen so many beginner boxers who do fancy footwork and do all this circling back and forth, and use footwork in all directions, and do zig-zags and other weird contortions. They usually just tire themselves out.

[chufeng]

OK...but look beyond the surface of the question...
It's not just footwork or strategy...

I've seen your other posts and I know you can dig deeper.

:asian:
chufeng

[theletch1]

OK let a newbie take a crack at a couple of them.

The circle: Denotes the continuous revolution of all things having neither beginning nor end, each action leads to the next action and the next.

The triangle: Denotes the threefold path of martial arts. Mind, Body and Spirit. All three sides of the triangle must be in balance for the artist to be one with the art. Meaning that the true artist must train all three aspects.

The square: ummmm..... it's a dance in West Virginia?

respectfully,
theletch1:asian:

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by theletch1


The square: ummmm..... it's a dance in West Virginia?

respectfully,
theletch1:asian:


LOL! :rofl: :rofl: :D

[chufeng]

Good answer, Theletch1...

There's more to both the circle and triangle...but you've gone beyond the obvious...

Anyone care to take a stab at the square?

:asian:
chufeng

[Aegis]

Nothing to do with either of the arts I train in, but here's an idea for the square:

There is more than one method to get from one point to another (say, from you standing facing an opponent to you walking home uninjured). The two methods may seem totally different to begin with, but will eventually achieve the same goal...

Or some other intelligent sounding carp...

[chufeng]

Well, I'm not exactly sure what the IQ of a Koi has to do with this, but...

...an interesting view of the square...one I hadn't thought about before...nice.

anyone else?

:asian:
chufeng

[tshadowchaser]

not sure if this qualifies but you do a basic hip throw and draw a line on the floor from foot posistion from begining to end they seem to have a shape simular to a square.
Also to combined triangles give you a square when moveing forward,sideways, and back,and sideways.
both the square and the triangle give you the circle when moved enough.
all three are ways a body may move to preform different tasks and sometimes the same task. ( atgain the hip throw)

[Aegis]

Thinking about it, circles are quite a common occurence in both Judo and Jujutsu. Lots of techniques are made up of lots of circles: circling the arms, circling the opponent, circling stance...

On the other hand there's also the "grab and fling" set of techniques which don't entirely match up with this. But hey.

We quite often land in the shape of a triangle for breakfalling purposes... seems to be quite a stable landing position.

[chufeng]

Excellent ideas...but there's more...keep posting...

Go beyond strategy and technique...OR go to the heart of your art.

:asian:
chufeng

[Cliarlaoch]

Chufeng, are you referring to the metaphysics of the arts, perhaps?

I'm guessing here, but:

Circle: the journey of understanding the nature of the art and oneself via the art's meditative and self-reflective nature. It is full circle, and returns in on itself, since one begins and ends the process with oneself. Could be wrong.

Square: Not sure, really. Never encountered it in any of my arts yet. Sorry. :(

Triangle: Phallic symbol of some sort? (Sorry, couldn't resist). Seriously, the interrelation of mind, body, and soul, perhaps? Another guess. Makes sense to me, since all three are developed in a Martial Art, I believe. Could be wrong.

Feel free to correct me Chufeng, I'm just trying to hazard a guess! :)

[chufeng]

I'm just trying to hazard a guess!

...and a fine guess it was...that is the whole point of this thread...
the physical art can be learned by a well trained monkey...BUT the spirit of the art lies within the soul of each human that steps on the path...each shape represents an aspect of your art, from the human perspective...it can be superficial...but it can also go very deep...

Cliarlaoch, I am not blowing you off...but I want to see more responses before I share a few insights...and mind you, when I do, there will be plenty who have comment...and that's OK, too...
No one has a monopoly on the essence of what we do.

:asian:
chufeng

[MartialArtist]

Well, then there's direct lines.

Straight, direct, simple. No wasted motions, no wasted energy, easy to perform, and they are the fastest. The fastest way to get to point B from A is a straight line.

Circle is when your path is deterred. When the guy's position is a certain way, you might have to uppercut, or hook. Some times, you might have to spin to get more power. But the real use for a circle comes when you are locked, or when you're both on the ground. When you're wrists are locked, a circle should at least give you the advantage, unless your opponent had very powerful tentacles. And grappling on the ground. Going in a circle gives you better angles.

[chufeng]

Martial Artist,

You are still stuck on the strategy...and there's nothing wrong with that, at all...you've expanded on your original answer...obviously put some thought into it...

Can you go beyond the physical, for a moment, and look at the essence of your art? That is where the techniques come from...

The techniques of any art reflect the heart of the system...look to the heart and discover that which has been before your eyes from the very beginning...

I know it seems difficult...but when you see it, you realize how easy it really is.

(and NO, I'm not just messing with you...)

:asian:
chufeng

[MartialArtist]

Line - Path of an arrow. Korea really emphasized archery and still does today, with how many gold medals and how many medal sweeps. Path of an arrow is straight. Meaning, you don't attack straight, but everything is simple and direct. Everything falls in a straight line when there are no outside forces. A ball drops straight down.

Circle represents a never-ending cycle.

Square - I think I heard something on the four corners

When something doesn't work, go around it. Like water, on how it moves around the rock and meets back.

There are thousands of these, and IMO, are not really of much importance. What's important is combat, not the philosophical beginnings or how what originated, because most have the same idea, no matter where the people were from. I think Bruce Lee put it perfectly, but then again, it is interesting to know where things came about.

[chufeng]

Martial Artist,

Just when you show the promise of an answer, you go and shoot it down with your "it only counts on the battlefield stuff.

Tell that to Musashi...

Gosh, that very last post was promising...but then you pissed on it.

:asian:
chufeng

[Cliarlaoch]

Originally posted by chufeng
[BCliarlaoch, I am not blowing you off...but I want to see more responses before I share a few insights...and mind you, when I do, there will be plenty who have comment...and that's OK, too...
No one has a monopoly on the essence of what we do.

:asian:
chufeng [/B]

No worries, Chufeng. I will eagerly await your responses when they come. :asian:


"No one has a monopoly on the essence of what we do"

So does that mean I can't pass go or collect the $200 dollars to buy the Shaolin Temple property up and finally start putting up some buildings on my turf? Darn... no big payoffs for Cliarlaoch. Drat.

(Mind me not. I am an oddball)

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
There are thousands of these, and IMO, are not really of much importance. What's important is combat, not the philosophical beginnings or how what originated, because most have the same idea, no matter where the people were from.

Interesting to note that the strictly combat oriented volume of wisdom written by Sun Tzu is couched in philosophical terms and images... Same with the Book of Five Rings.

Philosophical images are what stir the mind and heart to action. By watching the movement of animals, many combat strategies have been devised. Certainly, the same strategies could well have been developed without the inspiration of the animal, but then again...?

Perhaps it has been overdone with cheap, sell-out schools using cliche images to advertise their art to the ignorant. Maybe there are too many self-styled Kwai Chang Caines wandering the mini-malls trying to recruit their own neo-Shaolin disciples. Whatever.

The philosophical underpinings of all martial arts should not be disposed of hurriedly. Because you don't see a use for them now doesn't mean you won't see a use for them later. It is a case of the baby being thrown out with the bathwater...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Interesting to note that the strictly combat oriented volume of wisdom written by Sun Tzu is couched in philosophical terms and images... Same with the Book of Five Rings.

Philosophical images are what stir the mind and heart to action. By watching the movement of animals, many combat strategies have been devised. Certainly, the same strategies could well have been developed without the inspiration of the animal, but then again...?

Perhaps it has been overdone with cheap, sell-out schools using cliche images to advertise their art to the ignorant. Maybe there are too many self-styled Kwai Chang Caines wandering the mini-malls trying to recruit their own neo-Shaolin disciples. Whatever.

The philosophical underpinings of all martial arts should not be disposed of hurriedly. Because you don't see a use for them now doesn't mean you won't see a use for them later. It is a case of the baby being thrown out with the bathwater...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
What I'm saying is that the most important part of a martial art for combat is where it got some of its ideas from. Look at wing chun, there are a lot of stories but one story that's accepted as truth, were Ng Mui, along with the other elders, created a system. It is said she got the ideas from a battle she witnessed between a snake and a crane. Or, look at boxing. Nobody knows really anything about boxing, other than it was very popular in Greece. Some newer ideas in boxing, have little geometric essence. Ali never thought of shapes when he popularized some of his techniques. I'm saying that knowing the genesis of geometric principles is not important for combat. If you truly understand the principles, then I could see why, but most people know rather than understand.

[chufeng]

Well, I guess that is what distinguishes a martial way (Do) from a martial art (jutsu)...

Every founder of the classical systems emphasize that combat application is the lowest level of understanding. The mental processes, the discipline, and the spiritual/philosophical development is much more important AND more applicable in one's day to day encounters with people.

If you train in a "combat only" system...that's fine.
But, this thread is about something beyond technique...
If you want to debate the value of Do vs Jutsu...start a new thread.

Thank you for the comments, anyway.

:asian:
chufeng

[sweeper]

wait, are you saying that martial "ways" don't have the philosophical aspect of martial arts? I have heard this go both ways before (that"do" arts have less non combat related material than "jutsu: arts/ "jutsu" has less than "do")

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by sweeper
wait, are you saying that martial "ways" don't have the philosophical aspect of martial arts? I have heard this go both ways before (that"do" arts have less non combat related material than "jutsu: arts/ "jutsu" has less than "do")

There are a couple of sides to this argument.

The first is that "do" and "jutsu" arts are separate entities, forever differentiated by their artsy demeanor on the one hand, and their combat orientation on the other. I see this the most in folks that are either character building purists or wannabe combat monsters.

The second is that "do" and "jutsu" are somehow the same thing, one being inextricably linked to the other through their lines of origin (since "do" arts almost always stem from "jutsu" beginnings). I see this the most with some judo and kendo players that want their art to be more than it is (e.g. "combat" judo, whatever that is... Or "kendo is really the identical to kenjutsu, we just use bamboo swords instead." Riiiiight... :rolleyes: ).

The third is that they are two sides of the very same coin, different aspects of one concept, far too closely related to be worthy of differentiation into "do" and "jutsu."

In Forrest Morgan's book Living the Martial Way, he encourages students to practice "jutsu," but to cultivate "do." I think this is the best way to approach the issue.

You cannot fully develop nor appreciate "do" without the rigors of training and experience that "jutsu" training will provide. I am sure we have all seen the long-haired, crystal-carrying, tree-hugging, new-age hippy aikidoka, as well as the hard charging, psycho-eyed, shaven-headed XXX-jutsu player... They are extremes of the same measurement, both without the slightest hint of the existence of the other.

I am sure, however, we have all run into that combination personality, the man or woman that hints at the embodiment of both "do" (in their cultivated, refined, peaceful grace) and "jutsu" (in their confident, powerful, predatory power).

We can debate all night long of which art is better, which way is better. Bottom line, as far as I know (and am concerned for that matter), as with so many things both are One. You cannot fully possess, develop nor understand one without the necessary existence of the other. To attempt to do so is to limit one's experience with the very first step on the Path.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[chufeng]

Sorry for the confusion...

I don't use the terms "do" and "jutsu" necessarily to distinguish Judo from Jujutso, as an example...rather I distinguish them as a frame of mind when approaching the art (whatever it is).

I know plenty of Judo players who are purely interested in application and tournament fighting...the whole philosophy of Judo is lost on them...I would refer to this frame of mind as one who is jutsu oriented...

On the other hand I know plenty of Jujutsu stylists who are very philosophical in their approach to their art...though they "practice" a jutsu, they "live" the Do...

I hope this helps to clarify my point.
If not, PM me.

:asian:
chufeng

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by sweeper
wait, are you saying that martial "ways" don't have the philosophical aspect of martial arts? I have heard this go both ways before (that"do" arts have less non combat related material than "jutsu: arts/ "jutsu" has less than "do")
I'm saying a training philosophy, and a philosophy that can help you keep your cool, calm you, encourage you, and etc. is important.

What I do not think is very important is the origin of certain moves such as what animal it came from. It might help to be in the mindset of a crane, but how practical that is in a self-defense situation, I can't tell you it's just as important as the combat experience you gained, or mind control, and things of that nature.

[chufeng]

MA,

I agree...

I never said anything about animals...
I asked about the three simple geometric shapes:
The square, the triangle, and the circle...
For as many posts as we have received...only three or four have addressed the original question...

Let's get back on track...

I'll share my viewpoint on Saturday. (and remember it is only my opinion)

:asian:
chufeng

[sweeper]

thanks yiliquan and chufeng.

I havn't seen/heard of the symbology of the square in either the JKD I practice or the Kali, doesn't mean it isn't there but I hanv't come across it.

In JKD the circle represents alot, as I understand it it's mostly a modification of wing chun phylosophy. In Kali the triangle has alot of symbology attached to it, but unfortunatly I'm not familiar with all of it, and I think it also means diffrent things to iffrent groups of people. Yeah I know this doesn't help a whole lot, but as I am not an expert (or even very talanted) in either I'm hisitant to post on the philosophical side of either.

[chufeng]

Sweeper,

There are no right or wrong answers...
This thread is to stimulate a discussion (for those who participate) or simply to stimulate reflection on (for the lurkers) other aspects of the art you practice...

Every person's input is valuable...

:asian:
chufeng

[Cryozombie]

The circle represents the 5 elements, which, although connectable in both straight lines (Which form a 5 pointed star when they are all conected in order) and the square (which connects the conceptual lines between any 4 elements at once) still flow in a cirlce.

Water overcomes fire as fire overcomes air as air overcomes the void as the void overcomes earth as earth overcomes water as Water overcomes fire...

I wish I had the diagrams of this to post... (especially so i could make sure i got which element overcomes which element correctly, LOL)

[chufeng]

Cycle of destruction is:
Water=>Fire=>Metal=>Wood=>Earth

Cycle of generation is:
Fire=>Earth=>Metal=>Water=>Wood

:asian:
chufeng

[GaryM]

I learned what you call the 'cycle of destruction' as the controlling cycle, where each element in the creation cycle controls/inhibits the element two steps ahead of it. In traditional chinese medicine it is called the grandmother/grandson cycle, as it works like a grandparent exerting control over a grandchild. Don't get me wrong, I'm still a long way from real understanding and I'm not disagreeing with you.

[chufeng]

You are absolutely right...depending on which text you reference...
The cycle of destruction is also called the cycle of control...

But now we are going off in another tangent...
We can spin many threads off of this one, apparently.

The "cycle" represented by the circle IS one aspect of the circle...

Let's not get side-tracked, though...if anyone wants a thread on traditional Chinese medicine...start one...I'll be in there.

:asian:
chufeng

[GaryM]

Chufeng, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the original question. There's no square in my arts' symbolism (epak) far as I know and the symbolism isn't something I've really dwelt upon. I have the impression that you are very knowledgable so I really would like your views. O.K. , I guess to be fair I'll have to give at least a guess on the square thing. Could it represent that which is structured and unchanging , as in the basics or physical core of the art? Or to be more esoteric, basic morals that wrong is wrong and truth is true thru all time?

[chufeng]

Gary,

I will post my response to the IDEA of the three symbols tomorrow...

YOU are right on target with the "guess;" the square represents your FOUNDATION...

Thanks for participating.

:asian:
chufeng

[chufeng]

Sorry this is a day later than I promised...

The three geometric shapes of the triangle, square, and circle can have many symbolic interpretations within any given martial art.

One can look at it strictly from a strategic perspective.
One can look at it from a technical perspective.
One can look at it from a philosophical or spiritual perspective.
Each perspective is valid. BUT, it is important to integrate all of the perspectives and BECOME all three shapes when you practice your particular art.

The input others have shared in this thread is encouraging…it shows that there are students out there willing to look at their art from more than just a physical perspective.

The following is simply my view on how the shapes might be viewed and applied.
If one were to look at the shapes individually, that is each shape represents something specific, I would classify them in the following way:

Square = Foundation (Basics, basics, basics)
Triangle = Stance (the most stable structure is a pyramid…be one)
Circle = Spirit (Awareness, humility, wisdom, and spirit are encompassed by this idea)

However, I like to view all three shapes existing within the other…each shape becomes dominant, depending on the situation…and in any given situation any of the shapes may dominate. In other words they FLUX between dominance and secondary influence.

Now, let’s look at what the shapes represent in the physical world. When I say square, I really mean cube, because we exist in a three dimensional world (not counting the fourth dimension of time and the fifth dimension of folded time/space). Likewise, when I say Triangle, I mean pyramid…and when I say Circle, I mean sphere.

Square is the easiest to address, because it really does remain mostly in the physical plane. It refers to Foundation…this means an absolutely SOLID understanding of the basic techniques of your system…Not one of the fancy maneuvers you may learn means squat without a grounding in the basics of your system. The basics are what you build your art upon…if your basics are weak, your foundation is weak…and hence, your whole system (note: this is referring to individuals within a system, not any given system AS a system) suffers…
Strategically, the square represents moving straight forward, straight backward, or at 90 degrees to an attack…
Philosophically, it represents the moral underpinnings of who you are…
Spiritually, it represents stillness.

Triangle, on the physical level, refers to a strong base stance with a light upper body for maximum rooting and mobility.
On a tactical level, it certainly could represent the point of a spear…that is a “straight in and pierce the defenses” approach to an attack…On a defensive point, it may represent splitting an incoming force so that the majority of power goes around you.
Strategically, it represents stepping at angles to position yourself out of the line of fire and within range for an immediate counterattack.
On a philosophical level, it may represent the interplay between the other two shapes. It may represent the mountain we each have chosen to climb (each of us may have a different path on that mountain, however). It may represent the mountain that is lit on one side and dark on the other…the proverbial Yin and Yang…etc.
Spiritually, (depending on your metaphysical and religious persuasion) it could represent a “trinity,” a hierarchy of deities, a progressive level of transcendence, or YOUR place in the big scheme of things. It may show HOW we each interconnect to each other and our environment.

Circle…Technically, a sphere, filled with air, can absorb and then bounce back a force applied to it. Further, if one were to examine a solid sphere closely, one would see that the sphere contacts the ground (or whatever it encounters) at a single point…BUT, the full mass of the sphere is behind that contact…that is a tremendous amount of concentrated force…learn to hit like that.
Strategically, the circle can be used to develop centrifugal force (like the spinning kicks seen in TaeKwonDo) or centripetal force (like that seen in Aikido or small circle jujutsu)…Also, since the sphere encounters something at a single point, one can shift the center of the sphere when contact has been made to REDIRECT force. Of course, there is much more that can be said about the technical and strategic aspects of the circle…you explore those.
Philosophically, one could say that for each ending is a new beginning…learning never stops.
From the perspective of my particular art, circle represents center…the size of the circle changes in conjunction with the situation (whether it’s strategic, tactical, or Spiritual) We move from one-point (center) in everything we do…we connect one-point to our opponent (opponent is not the best word, since, according to our philosophy, we are all one) and feel his intent and react to that…we are empty when the attack occurs and return only that which was given…this is where our philosophy and martial practice overlap…this is where our philosophy is expressed through physical action…
Spiritually, circle can represent many things…from a zen perspective, it represents No-mindedness…that is a mindfullness that is ever present and receptive…or a state of awareness that quite simply goes beyond description…it could represent the oneness of all things…it could represent God in that there is no beginning or ending to a circle…it is the shape which most easily encompasses the other two…

In reality one could easily write a book on the ideas represented by these three simple geometric shapes…This has been a brief sharing of some ideas from me…the ideas are mine…then again, I may be full of crap…so, if you can use them, great…if not, that’s OK, too.

:asian:
chufeng

[chufeng]

Guess the post was too long.
:p
chufeng