Very High Rank in Many Arts?!?

[geezer]

On another thread dealing with McDojos and dubious quality instruction, MJS posted that it raised a "red flag" when an instructor claimed very high ranks in multiple arts. Now, there are dedicated individuals that have legitemately achieved high ranks in two or three martial arts. And there are also high level masters who, because of their skill and experience, have been able to adapt useful skills from other styles without devoting the many years it would take to become a "master" of each system. But, on the whole, I have to agree with MJS's comment. When I pass the neighborhood "McDojo" and see signs advertising instruction in "Karate, Kung-fu, Kenpo, Taekwondo, Kickboxing, Muay Tai, MMA and Ninjutsu", I don't know if I should laugh or be ill. And I feel the same way when someone starts claiming 6th, 7th and 8th dans in five different systems. I suppose there may be a few such individuals out there, but they can't be common. What do the rest of you think?

[terryl965]

I do not understand how people can have 10 5th degree's or higher to me it is just paper pushers.

[stone_dragone]

I have noticed more than once that when I see someone purporting themselves to be high rank (read: 5th dan or higher) in more than 2 arts, they are often from the same basic organization/base school...

For Example: Kobayashi Maru Kobudo 7th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Karate 7th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Jujutsu 6th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Taijutsu 5th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Ikibana 5th Dan, Kobayashi Maru Sushi 9th Dan, etc.

[allenjp]

On the other hand I have seen some dojos that train several different arts like that, but there is a different instructor for each one, that is a high rank for that discipline. I think that is OK.

[Brian S]

Man, geezer, you sure do have alot of bones to pick don't you,lol.

Yep, there are people out there with 10th dans in multiple arts. There are "Soke's" out there who are just blatant frauds. There are mcdojo's out there on every corner run by blackbelts that got it in less than 2yrs. Camoflage belts, kiddie blackbelts, laser printed certificate hoarders, etc, etc.....so, let's go kick their asses!!!!

[terryl965]

On the other hand I have seen some dojos that train several different arts like that, but there is a different instructor for each one, that is a high rank for that discipline. I think that is OK.

Only if they deserve it, inmost cases they get cross ranks because the school teaches both.

[Twin Fist]

Eugene Sedeno is a 9th in kajukenbo and a 9th in Shaolin kenpo

both Chow lineage arts, so thats easy to believe

Plus a master's license from Mitose

he also has a cert signed by Ed parker for a 5th Dan in EPAK, from the early 80's

some rare people can do that

in general tho?

BIG FAT HAIRY RED FLAG

[grydth]

I have seen masters with high ranks in two associated disciplines such as kendo and iaido. I would concede that some very few individuals could achieve more.

Very gifted individuals = 1%
Soke Purchased Paper Collectors = 99%

[yak sao]

Here's one for you. There's a school in my town with the world's first
18th degree blackbelt......
Apparently, he has rank in a few systems and added his degrees together, and people actually believe this crap.

(I won't mention what type of school it is but it's initials are...........TKD........I'm just saying)

[foggymorning162]

On the other hand I have seen some dojos that train several different arts like that, but there is a different instructor for each one, that is a high rank for that discipline. I think that is OK.

That is what we do, our head instructor is 7th Dan TSD , it is a TSD school we also have instructors who teach Jujitso, Kun Tao and Tia Chi. These are offered as extras and each one is only a once a week class. Our head instructor is 1st dan in Jujitso but he does not teach that class the insructor is a Master in Jujitso sorry not sure of rank.

[arnisador]

I do not understand how people can have 10 5th degree's or higher to me it is just paper pushers.

My memory isn't good enough for that sort of thing.

[jks9199]

You have to look at the systems in question; there are a very few legitimate systems where, as you train, you get rank in several linked systems all falling underneath the overall banner. I think that the Jinenkan does this, for example.

But as a general rule, I agree that if you see one person claiming more than 1st or 2nd black belts in more than 2 or 3 systems -- especially if they're pretty disparate systems -- there's a problem.

This isn't necessarily the same as having credentials in multiple systems. There are people -- especially those who have made martial arts their profession -- who have legitimate credentials, even up to teaching credentials, in several styles.

[MA-Caver]

I have noticed more than once that when I see someone purporting themselves to be high rank (read: 5th dan or higher) in more than 2 arts, they are often from the same basic organization/base school...

For Example: Kobayashi Maru .
Hey isn't James T. Kirk a master at that... I mean he took the test 4 times and his final solution was shall we say... unique.

[stone_dragone]

Congrats on the catch! CPT Kirk was, in fact, finally a master of said testing method!

[Blindside]

Congrats on the catch! CPT Kirk was, in fact, finally a master of said testing method!

No, he simply didn't believe in a no rank scenario.

[YoungMan]

Assuming that 7th-8th Dan in one style requires a lifetime of dedicated practice, and that such idividuals are very rare, it stands to reason that someone claiming 10th Dan in 7 different styles is, shall we say, full of bull excrement.
End of story.

[Cirdan]

People holding multiple high ranks.. some are frauds, others are truly dedicated people. For instance the former grand master of Katori Shinto Ryu was a 10th Dan in Aikido as well. Many people in the organization practice Kyodo and other additional arts. One rather famous Sensei I have attended seminars with is Dan ranked (3rd to 5th) in as many as six styles. Very respected his history of training is well documented.

One other think I have seen is Karate teachers also teaching Okinawan Kobudo who will list their rank in every weapon.. tonfa, bo etc. Adds up to a lot of uneccecary ranks

[Hyper_Shadow]

One other think I have seen is Karate teachers also teaching Okinawan Kobudo who will list their rank in every weapon

That is highly unnecessary. As far as I know you don't rank individual weaponry in Okinawan Kobudo. In fact if you're training in okinawan te in any case it's pretty much rolled into one. So your one rank pretty much defines everything you do within it, weapons or otherwise.

It seems to me that people think in order to successfully run a dojo nowadays you need to be a (I shudder at the term) 'master' in about fifty million different martial arts. I dunno about everyone else, but I'm a one track bloke. I train at one dojo and for me it's all I'll ever need and all I'll ever want. I've found my place. Within that place I barely have time to keep my skills polished, let alone keep improving on them. So forgive me for sounding a bit thick headed, plus I know there are people who dedicate a lot of time and effort over many different forms of martial arts; but I cannot understand how the vast majority of these people can claim ludicrously high ranks in about 6 or more seperate schools.
It is quite apparent that people want to be trained by 'legitimate' instructors who are experienced combat veterans. But even the average bystander with a little common sense should have alrm bells ringing when someone declares that they are 'masters' and have like 18th(!WTF!?) dan grades and such.
That all said, who really cares? Yeah it's damaging to martial arts in general and yeah it's gonna mean less students are attracted to the dojos. However, as far as I'm concerned it really doesn't bother me. I have sweat, bled and thrown up for the sliver of knowledge I've earned; and that's what it is, a sliver, there's still a vast ocean left for me to explore. Grade doesn't mean a damn thing. Fair enough it's nice to have recognition of my achievements but if my grades were taken away from me today would I cease being a martial artist of my skill level? Nope. In my opinion I say let the fools chase paper and the rest of us will chase real strength instead and when it comes to the crunch what is gonna save your life? A certificate or the ability?

[Drac]

Got a few of those up here..The sign says expert instruction in Judo, Karate and Ju-Jitsu and the lone instructor is barely 25 yoa...

[kamishinkan]

Very interesting thread, I have noticed shifts in the martial arts in the short time I have trained (25+ years) and some interesting shifts historically in MA as well (as in long before me). In the research I have done in the early 1900's in what we would consider modern MA, it was not uncommon at all for martial arts masters to have seemingly high dan ranks in several arts. I know of a well known Okinawan that had SEVERAL high black belts from instructors such as Tomoyori Ryusei in Kenyu Ryu, Mabuni Kenwa in Shito Ryu, Gogetsu Ichi in Mugai Ryu, Nagamine Shojin in Shorin Ryu and Kobudo training with Taira Shinken and Nakaima Kenko of Ryuei Ryu. Notice these are unrelated arts. This is just the way it was and some instructors had the ability and time to train to a good degree with several masters.
It seems that a shift happened and for whatever reason, rank seemed to slow down especially for westerners (maybe it was our hunger for rank recognition......). Today it does not work that way. I have a theory that back in the early days of MA (modern) history there were not that many people training so rank seemed to happen fairly easily, today, the MA is so inflated with students the rank sytem slowed down (not talking about modern western MA rank papermills, where rank is given with little to no time, sweat, blood and tears). From what I can tell, in the early years ranking up to Godan was reasonably done, after that it SLOWED DOWN. I do agree though, that if a modern western based instructor claims several high ranks I would be very suspect still. :asian:

[masherdong]

Congrats on the catch! CPT Kirk was, in fact, finally a master of said testing method!

Yeah, because he cheated!

[Kosho Gakkusei]

One important thing to consider is the practitioners age and how long they've been training. It is entirely possible for someone to have the equivalent of 5th - 7th degree in multiple different arts if they've been studying for over 40 years, especially if they've been teaching martial arts for a living for several decades. More than two 8th or higher would be very unlikely although not entirely impossible. Having a 10th degree in more than one unrelated art is highly suspect, in my opinion. For that matter, too many people are claiming 10th degrees - they should be highly uncommon.

[Grenadier]

While there are quite a few folks who tend to exaggerate their accomplishments, having multiple high rankings isn't entirely unusual amongst the legitimate folks.

It's entirely possible for someone to have a high dan rankings in more than one system. However, this usually also means that they've been training for decades, and that they've shown an exemplary level of dedication. My old Karate teacher, for example, holds a 9th dan in Karate and a 7th dan in Ju Jutsu, and both are very, very legit. The old dojo still offers both Karate and Ju Jutsu, and anyone training in either art there will get a good education.

It's also possible to test for rankings with the USA-NKF or WKF. Thus, someone who has a 7th dan in Shotokan Karate, could certainly test for a 6th dan with the USA-NKF or WKF, if he wanted a somewhat "universal" ranking. Thus, if someone held high rankings in two systems already, and tested with the USA-NKF, he could certainly hold three high dan rankings.

In the end, though, I wouldn't worry about who has what ranking, as long as you feel that you're getting good training, and if you have faith in your instructor and system.

[MJS]

On another thread dealing with McDojos and dubious quality instruction, MJS posted that it raised a "red flag" when an instructor claimed very high ranks in multiple arts. Now, there are dedicated individuals that have legitemately achieved high ranks in two or three martial arts. And there are also high level masters who, because of their skill and experience, have been able to adapt useful skills from other styles without devoting the many years it would take to become a "master" of each system. But, on the whole, I have to agree with MJS's comment. When I pass the neighborhood "McDojo" and see signs advertising instruction in "Karate, Kung-fu, Kenpo, Taekwondo, Kickboxing, Muay Tai, MMA and Ninjutsu", I don't know if I should laugh or be ill. And I feel the same way when someone starts claiming 6th, 7th and 8th dans in five different systems. I suppose there may be a few such individuals out there, but they can't be common. What do the rest of you think?

Just to expand a bit further on my comment. :) I'll preface this by saying that I'm all about the training and learning, not about the rank. I've never been a rank chaser and never will be. I leave that to my teachers. When they feel I'm ready, I'll test. I've always stressed that when I go up for a test, I want to be ready.

Now, is it possible for someone to hold BB level rank in more than one art? Of course. The difference is, is that its usually not really high. Example: A friend of mine who runs a small school is a 4th in Kenpo. During his Kenpo training, he was cross training in Arnis, which he holds a Black Belt. He is training in BJJ and is currently at Purple Belt level.

What raises the flag, IMHO, is when you see someone who holds rank in 6 arts, with a 7th in one, 8th in another, a few 6ths, etc. Every school will vary on the time between each rank, but lets say its 2yrs between 1st and 2nd degree black, 3 between 2nd and 3rd, etc. Now factor in the persons age. Is it possible to be 25 and be a 7th degree? Some will say that it depends on the age of the person when they first started. So if they start at 4yrs old....well, now you start getting into the McDojo thing again, because now you could see a 10yr old black belt. So by the time they're 16 they could be 2nd or 3rd. Sorry, IMHO, I can't justify a 16yr old 3rd degree black belt.

People seem to think that having high rank will make others go ooohhhh and ahhhhh. Sorry, to disappoint them, but I won't be saying that. What impresses me is the persons skill, how well they understand the material, how well they can teach the material, and how well they can execute the material. Impress me with what you can do, not the number of stripes on your belt. :)

Mike

[BrandonLucas]

I think what alot of people do is to attend seminars of different MA's, and some of these seminars will award rank to some of the people attend.

I have heard of this happening to several people who claim rank in several different MA's that they have only spent a few hours learning....then their black belt rank in their original art carries over, so that they are considered a "black belt" in the art for which they are attending the seminar.

[MJS]

Eugene Sedeno is a 9th in kajukenbo and a 9th in Shaolin kenpo

both Chow lineage arts, so thats easy to believe

Plus a master's license from Mitose

he also has a cert signed by Ed parker for a 5th Dan in EPAK, from the early 80's

some rare people can do that

in general tho?

BIG FAT HAIRY RED FLAG

I agree. What is important to take into consideration is the number of years GM Sedeno has been training vs. the number of years we see with some of the other high ranks out there. Huge difference IMO. So yes, as you said, in this case, I can certainly justify his time in and his rank. :)

[Hyper_Shadow]

IMHO, I can't justify a 16yr old 3rd degree black belt.

I think folks are missing a very keen point about age. I train hard and train a lot. In my opinion I've earned what I've got in terms of rank. However, my rank isn't all that important to me and neither is testing for my next one. But (big but) I'm only 21 years of age and yet I hold what I would regard as quite a high rank for my age. I'd just like to ask even if you had an exceptional student would you still not grade them to their apropriate level just based on their age? It's one thing to go on about someone spending a lot of years and gaining grades in many arts because they have an exceptional talent. On the flip side, what if they are young and have an exceptional talent and not just technical talent, I mean a well rounded knowledge base and fundamental understanding of what they are doing.
I speak from personal experience when I say I've had a lot of people look down on me based on my age in martial arts. It usually doesn't take long for them to shut up when I've demonstrated some of the small knowledge I've gathered. Fact is though, I shouldn't have to prove anything to anybody other than my students. Only then I'm reassuring them that what I am asking them to do is doable (even when they're being punished by being made to do pushups). But as for someone else who wants me to prove my grade... why? I don't go around asking everyone else to prove they're worthy of their grade who're older than me, so why should those that have had more time than me instantly have the right to be so judgemental? Just because they've been training longer?

Just my little rant. I'm young and I've still got a lot of mistakes to make, but fact is I'm a martial artist through and through, and my age has nothing to do with that. So guys what are your opinions on that? Does it all boil down to ageism?

[Brian S]

I truly believe you should be a certain age to hold a certain rank.

16yrs old minimum for shodan

18yrs old minimum for nidan

21 yrs old minimum for san dan

etc.....

These are just standard for me and my school. It doesn't happen very often,but it could happen. If someone has started at a young age, worked hard and stuck with it then they should be rewarded for it and I commend them. There aren't too many young people who are committed enough to do this though.

[BrandonLucas]

I think folks are missing a very keen point about age. I train hard and train a lot. In my opinion I've earned what I've got in terms of rank. However, my rank isn't all that important to me and neither is testing for my next one. But (big but) I'm only 21 years of age and yet I hold what I would regard as quite a high rank for my age. I'd just like to ask even if you had an exceptional student would you still not grade them to their apropriate level just based on their age? It's one thing to go on about someone spending a lot of years and gaining grades in many arts because they have an exceptional talent. On the flip side, what if they are young and have an exceptional talent and not just technical talent, I mean a well rounded knowledge base and fundamental understanding of what they are doing.
I speak from personal experience when I say I've had a lot of people look down on me based on my age in martial arts. It usually doesn't take long for them to shut up when I've demonstrated some of the small knowledge I've gathered. Fact is though, I shouldn't have to prove anything to anybody other than my students. Only then I'm reassuring them that what I am asking them to do is doable (even when they're being punished by being made to do pushups). But as for someone else who wants me to prove my grade... why? I don't go around asking everyone else to prove they're worthy of their grade who're older than me, so why should those that have had more time than me instantly have the right to be so judgemental? Just because they've been training longer?

Just my little rant. I'm young and I've still got a lot of mistakes to make, but fact is I'm a martial artist through and through, and my age has nothing to do with that. So guys what are your opinions on that? Does it all boil down to ageism?

In my honest opinion, rank is not only earned through ability, it's earned through maturity and experience.

Is a 12 year old going to have the maturity and experience to earn a 2nd dan, just the same as a 35 year old, even if they are able to complete the physical requirements on the same level?

I'm not saying age is the deciding factor here. And I'm not saying that a 12 year old couldn't have the maturity and experience to hold a 2nd dan well. I'm just saying that it would be highly unlikely, and that it should be a case-by-case basis.

The same holds true for multiple martial arts. Is someone proficient enough in Kenpo to hold a 2nd degree black belt at the same time they are able to hold a 2nd dan in TKD and a black belt in BJJ? It's not likely, but not impossible.

[Hyper_Shadow]

Well replied. And I think you've touched on the (in my opinion) deciding point. It's a case by case basis. You have to look at one and then one other and then one other to infinity.

[MJS]

I think folks are missing a very keen point about age. I train hard and train a lot. In my opinion I've earned what I've got in terms of rank. However, my rank isn't all that important to me and neither is testing for my next one.

:)



But (big but) I'm only 21 years of age and yet I hold what I would regard as quite a high rank for my age.

For the sake of the discussion, if you don't mind me asking, what rank do you hold? Please note, I'm not intending to bash you for your reply, just looking to expand on the thread. :)


I'd just like to ask even if you had an exceptional student would you still not grade them to their apropriate level just based on their age? It's one thing to go on about someone spending a lot of years and gaining grades in many arts because they have an exceptional talent. On the flip side, what if they are young and have an exceptional talent and not just technical talent, I mean a well rounded knowledge base and fundamental understanding of what they are doing.

Are those people out there? Sure. But I'd say the above average are fewer than the average. Keep in mind, and yes, I know many frown upon them, but the use of a Jr. Black Belt. Many systems teach kids a condensed level of material. When they reach the Jr. BB, that is usually the time when they play 'catch up' and learn the material that they didn't learn before. They're older now, so they're ready for more, and can probably start understanding it better. But again, its not the amount of material that is important, its how well its understood, can be applied, taught, etc. Refer back to my list I gave in another post. :)



I speak from personal experience when I say I've had a lot of people look down on me based on my age in martial arts. It usually doesn't take long for them to shut up when I've demonstrated some of the small knowledge I've gathered. Fact is though, I shouldn't have to prove anything to anybody other than my students. Only then I'm reassuring them that what I am asking them to do is doable (even when they're being punished by being made to do pushups). But as for someone else who wants me to prove my grade... why? I don't go around asking everyone else to prove they're worthy of their grade who're older than me, so why should those that have had more time than me instantly have the right to be so judgemental? Just because they've been training longer?


Just my little rant. I'm young and I've still got a lot of mistakes to make, but fact is I'm a martial artist through and through, and my age has nothing to do with that. So guys what are your opinions on that? Does it all boil down to ageism?

Perhaps what it boils down to is the old saying of 'one bad apple ruins the bunch.' People may view others who're frauds, and lump someone who really isn't, into the same bunch. For myself, I've taught for quite some time now and I've seen some 4yr old kids, and honestly felt that they shouldn't be there. They just can't understand and perform the material. Yet I've seen others who did well. :) And perhaps many think that the idea of a GM or someone who has an 8th or 9th degree, would be an older person, an adult, not someone who is 25.

People nowadays tend to not like to wait. If 2 friends start at the same time, its almost expected that they should be promoted together and God forbid they're not....all hell breaks loose. Sorry, but I can't give someone rank, if they look like garbage. I don't care if they started together or if their friend is 4 belts ahead. If they look like crap, I don't rank them. If they want to go somewhere else to get it, then fine, go. I'd rather have the quality than the quantity.

I still stand by my theory. Impress me with your skill, not your rank. Alot of being a high rank isn't the number of kata or techniques you have, but your deeper understanding of the material. Have there been times when I was asked something and didn't know the answer? Of course. And I'd always seek out that answer and tell the student. But if the teacher always has to go back and seek out the source, that tells me that they don't have a good understanding. So, the 6th degree 18yo who is teaching the class is asked 10 questions through out the class. Out of the 10, he can't answer 7 questions. Same situation. Out of the 10 questions, he can't answer 1 or 2. Who has the better understanding for the rank they hold?

[MJS]

I truly believe you should be a certain age to hold a certain rank.

16yrs old minimum for shodan

18yrs old minimum for nidan

21 yrs old minimum for san dan

etc.....

These are just standard for me and my school. It doesn't happen very often,but it could happen. If someone has started at a young age, worked hard and stuck with it then they should be rewarded for it and I commend them. There aren't too many young people who are committed enough to do this though.

Great post!! Now, I have a question. In your school, you have a 16yr age for 1st degree. Do you have an age requirement as to when they start? What do you do if you get a 5yr old. Do you make them wait 11yrs before they get their 1st degree or do you have something like a Jr. BB to give them in the meantime?

[MJS]

In my honest opinion, rank is not only earned through ability, it's earned through maturity and experience.

Is a 12 year old going to have the maturity and experience to earn a 2nd dan, just the same as a 35 year old, even if they are able to complete the physical requirements on the same level?

I'm not saying age is the deciding factor here. And I'm not saying that a 12 year old couldn't have the maturity and experience to hold a 2nd dan well. I'm just saying that it would be highly unlikely, and that it should be a case-by-case basis.

The same holds true for multiple martial arts. Is someone proficient enough in Kenpo to hold a 2nd degree black belt at the same time they are able to hold a 2nd dan in TKD and a black belt in BJJ? It's not likely, but not impossible.

Good point! This, IMO, goes hand in hand with being able to teach it, understand it, apply it, etc. :)

[BrandonLucas]

:)




For the sake of the discussion, if you don't mind me asking, what rank do you hold? Please note, I'm not intending to bash you for your reply, just looking to expand on the thread. :)



Are those people out there? Sure. But I'd say the above average are fewer than the average. Keep in mind, and yes, I know many frown upon them, but the use of a Jr. Black Belt. Many systems teach kids a condensed level of material. When they reach the Jr. BB, that is usually the time when they play 'catch up' and learn the material that they didn't learn before. They're older now, so they're ready for more, and can probably start understanding it better. But again, its not the amount of material that is important, its how well its understood, can be applied, taught, etc. Refer back to my list I gave in another post. :)




Perhaps what it boils down to is the old saying of 'one bad apple ruins the bunch.' People may view others who're frauds, and lump someone who really isn't, into the same bunch. For myself, I've taught for quite some time now and I've seen some 4yr old kids, and honestly felt that they shouldn't be there. They just can't understand and perform the material. Yet I've seen others who did well. :) And perhaps many think that the idea of a GM or someone who has an 8th or 9th degree, would be an older person, an adult, not someone who is 25.

People nowadays tend to not like to wait. If 2 friends start at the same time, its almost expected that they should be promoted together and God forbid they're not....all hell breaks loose. Sorry, but I can't give someone rank, if they look like garbage. I don't care if they started together or if their friend is 4 belts ahead. If they look like crap, I don't rank them. If they want to go somewhere else to get it, then fine, go. I'd rather have the quality than the quantity.

I still stand by my theory. Impress me with your skill, not your rank. Alot of being a high rank isn't the number of kata or techniques you have, but your deeper understanding of the material. Have there been times when I was asked something and didn't know the answer? Of course. And I'd always seek out that answer and tell the student. But if the teacher always has to go back and seek out the source, that tells me that they don't have a good understanding. So, the 6th degree 18yo who is teaching the class is asked 10 questions through out the class. Out of the 10, he can't answer 7 questions. Same situation. Out of the 10 questions, he can't answer 1 or 2. Who has the better understanding for the rank they hold?

I like this standard. And I don't disagree with having Jr. Blackbelts at all...it doesn't belittle those with talent, and at the same time gives them alot of the experience and some of the knowledge they are going to need for the future.

On the topic of 2 friends joining at the same time....this presents a large problem in alot of the rank issues. Doing what's right vs. doing what's profitable. The problem is that many schools will do what's most profitable, instead of doing what's right. If one of the firends excells beyond the other one, then it's only right that that student is rewarded a higher rank, and the other student stays at his/her current rank to finish learning the cirriculum for that rank.

That's why I was saying that it needs to be a case by case basis, because once you start lumping people together by age alone, you shut people who deserve the rank out.

[dancingalone]

I like this standard. And I don't disagree with having Jr. Blackbelts at all...it doesn't belittle those with talent, and at the same time gives them alot of the experience and some of the knowledge they are going to need for the future.

Actually it does devalue the status of a black belt when you have legions of kids wearing a dan rank when they don't know their forms nor can they even complete a proper side kick. Personally, I don't even tell my non-martial artist friends anymore that I have a black belt in TKD. The last time I did it, I got something like, "Oh really. That's cool. My six year old niece is one, too."

You don't need the belt to gain experience or knowledge. That said, the belt should mean something, and I would never award a black belt to anyone under the age of sixteen, period.

[BrandonLucas]

Actually it does devalue the status of a black belt when you have legions of kids wearing a dan rank when they don't know their forms nor can they even complete a proper side kick. Personally, I don't even tell my non-martial artist friends anymore that I have a black belt in TKD. The last time I did it, I got something like, "Oh really. That's cool. My six year old niece is one, too."

You don't need the belt to gain experience or knowledge. That said, the belt should mean something, and I would never award a black belt to anyone under the age of sixteen, period.

If they aren't able to complete a proper side kick and don't know their forms, then why would they be awarded blackbelt, no matter what age they are?

[dancingalone]

Well, Brandon, it's actually very common in my neck of the woods in Texas to see deficient child black belts. They are awarded the rank to keep the tuition payments and test fees flowing.

[MJS]

Actually it does devalue the status of a black belt when you have legions of kids wearing a dan rank when they don't know their forms nor can they even complete a proper side kick. Personally, I don't even tell my non-martial artist friends anymore that I have a black belt in TKD. The last time I did it, I got something like, "Oh really. That's cool. My six year old niece is one, too."

You don't need the belt to gain experience or knowledge. That said, the belt should mean something, and I would never award a black belt to anyone under the age of sixteen, period.

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. Why did the child or adult advance, if they can't perform the basic material? Now, we all get nervous, and we all make mistakes, and yes, I'm sure there're times when someone, due to the pressure of the test, fumbles a bit, but a sidekick....thats like one of the most basic moves. So, yes, if a brown belt can't do a sidekick, the first thing I'm thinking is why the hell did they get that far in the first place???

As for the Jr. BB....again, this is going on the premise that the child has the basics, looks good doing them, but isn't old enough for full BB status. Again, that is usually the 'rank' where they stay while they learn the remainder of the BB material and at the same time, stay until they're old enough for full BB status.

I like the idea of 16 as the min. age. and frankly, I'm not fond of starting kids at 4 to begin with.

[dancingalone]

As for the Jr. BB....again, this is going on the premise that the child has the basics, looks good doing them, but isn't old enough for full BB status. Again, that is usually the 'rank' where they stay while they learn the remainder of the BB material and at the same time, stay until they're old enough for full BB status.


And I've seen those too, children who have generally good form, but have no reasonable expectation of defending themselves against a schoolyard bully, much less an adult intent on harming them. Do you know what I am talking about? A kick that looks nice in the air but cannot even push away a fifty lbs. heavy bag... A child that knows the choreography of the form but has no focus, no intensity. To them, the form IS a dance rather than a fight.

In my style, a black belt means you are combat effective. You might not be the toughest guy on the block, but you should have a reasonable expectation that your hard-won skills will translate into something useful on street.

[MJS]

I like this standard. And I don't disagree with having Jr. Blackbelts at all...it doesn't belittle those with talent, and at the same time gives them alot of the experience and some of the knowledge they are going to need for the future.

See my last post regarding the Jr. BB. :)


On the topic of 2 friends joining at the same time....this presents a large problem in alot of the rank issues. Doing what's right vs. doing what's profitable. The problem is that many schools will do what's most profitable, instead of doing what's right. If one of the firends excells beyond the other one, then it's only right that that student is rewarded a higher rank, and the other student stays at his/her current rank to finish learning the cirriculum for that rank.

Sadly the dollar comes first. People get upset because they're not advancing, blah, blah, blah, and what happens? They leave. So the owner who uses the school as his bread and butter loses cash, bills can't be paid, etc. so what does he do? Says screw it, and promotes them anyways. Sad but true. Lets keep the customer happy. I call bull on that and say that what really should matter is the quality, not the quantity. Some people don't want to work, they want everything spoon fed to them, and thats sad.


That's why I was saying that it needs to be a case by case basis, because once you start lumping people together by age alone, you shut people who deserve the rank out.

I still can't see the logic in giving a 10yo a 2nd degree BB.

[MJS]

And I've seen those too, children who have generally good form, but have no reasonable expectation of defending themselves against a schoolyard bully, much less an adult intent on harming them. Do you know what I am talking about? A kick that looks nice in the air but cannot even push away a fifty lbs. heavy bag... A child that knows the choreography of the form but has no focus, no intensity. To them, the form IS a dance rather than a fight.

In my style, a black belt means you are combat effective. You might not be the toughest guy on the block, but you should have a reasonable expectation that your hard-won skills will translate into something useful on street.

I know what you mean, and I agree. Again, this goes back to what I said before about being able to make the stuff work. :) I have no issue with a JR BB, but if they did away with them, I wouldn't lose sleep over it either. This is why I think that its crazy to see a 4yo in a class. Its more babysitting for the parents, than anything else. Have a min. age to start and a min. age for BB. If thats done, then theres no need to the Jr. BB. :)

Getting back to your first paragraph. Again, I agree. People can look real cool doing kata in the air, but ask them for some application, ask them to do a move from the kata on someone....forget it. Same for SD. Looks flashy and cool in the air, but put a body in front of them, and things are much different.

[BrandonLucas]

Kiddie blackbelts (as I call them) exist because a school is out to make money as the first priority. This is no secret

I don't agree with toddlers and middleschoolers running around with 2nd degrees either, which is the purpose of the junior blackbelt. It means that they are profecient enough FOR THEIR AGE to obtain the level of Junior black belt. And they shouldn't just be given the rank just because mommy and daddy believe they can do it...they should be given the rank because they have actually earned it. And in my opinion, there shouldn't be that many junior blackbelts hanging around, since it's not typical for kids to excel that far.

We all know what a McDojo is, and ranking someone up based on anything beyond ability, maturity, and experience, in my opinion, is what a McDojo is based on. They are out for money first, not the quality of instruction or quality of students. If you have alot of kiddie blackbelts running around, then I'm willing to bet there's a McDojo close by.

On the flipside, what are you going to do with a 12 year old who knows the forms inside and out, can perform them with awesome precision, can outspar anyone within his/her weightclass and beyond, can complete a breaking demo better than many of the adults, and knows all the information required to be a blackbelt? To me, THIS is what the Junior Blackbelt is designed for.

You won't find many 12 year olds like this, hence not many Junior Blackbelts should be running around.

If it's all about money, it should be obvious.

[dancingalone]

what are you going to do with a 12 year old who knows the forms inside and out, can perform them with awesome precision, can outspar anyone within his/her weightclass and beyond, can complete a breaking demo better than many of the adults, and knows all the information required to be a blackbelt?


I call that a brown belt. And no shame to it either.

[Daniel Sullivan]

And I've seen those too, children who have generally good form, but have no reasonable expectation of defending themselves against a schoolyard bully, much less an adult intent on harming them. Do you know what I am talking about? A kick that looks nice in the air but cannot even push away a fifty lbs. heavy bag... A child that knows the choreography of the form but has no focus, no intensity. To them, the form IS a dance rather than a fight.

In my style, a black belt means you are combat effective. You might not be the toughest guy on the block, but you should have a reasonable expectation that your hard-won skills will translate into something useful on street.
That is what it meant to be a blackbelt when I was a kid growing up. There were no kiddie blackbelts that I had ever seen. I'm sure that someone was doing it by then (I'm 41 and my childhood was in the seventies), but nobody I knew personally had even seen a blackbelt except for Jhoon Rhee in his television ads unless they went to a karate school (I did) and those were awesome blackbelts! And no tykes with forty patches on each sleeve either, but guys who broke multiple boards, cinder blocks, and in one case, a stack of bricks.

I had no concept of what degree these guys were; I'd never heard of first or fifth dan. Black belt was it, and to be a blackbelt was to be a feared combatant. My parents were with me when we saw the guy break a stack of five bricks. I was about seven and my parents had never seen a karate demo or a kung fu movie. When they saw that, their jaws dropped. They couldn't comprehend what they'd just seen, but they knew that they'd seen it. When I got my black belt in kumdo, they didn't know the difference; its a sword art, but it didn't matter. To them, it was a blackbelt and that meant solid fighter who breaks bricks with bare hands.

Now, I'm a second dan in kumdo and a first dan in taekwondo. I have a much better understanding of what it really means to be a blackbelt, and it goes beyond breaking boards and bricks. I also understand that children should not be awarded such a rank. They haven't the maturity or the physical developement to deal with the responsibility or the physical demands of being a true first dan.

Brandon, you asked "what are you going to do with a 12 year old who knows the forms inside and out, can perform them with awesome precision, can outspar anyone within his/her weightclass and beyond, can complete a breaking demo better than many of the adults, and knows all the information required to be a blackbelt? To me, THIS is what the Junior Blackbelt is designed for."

Here's my answer: make them a brown or red belt with a black stripe or two black stripes (rather than a black belt with a white or red stripe). That shows that they're a red/brown belt that has learned the material for blackbelt but is not mature, both mentally and physically, to test for black. Keep in mind that a growing child subjected to the demands of what a blackbelt traditionally is called upon to do can actually suffer permanent physical damage to their bodies. Its the same reason that growing children are not supposed to be doing body building or training with heavy weights. Growing children should not be subjected to head blows or hard blows to the body, even with padding. How can you be a blackbelt if you aren't ready to take physical punishment that blackbelt students receive in sparring?

Just my thoughts on the whole thing.:)

Thanks,

Daniel

[kamishinkan]

I used to not believe in Jr BBs BUT I have changed my mind....somewhat. I do not believe in taking children too early, I like to stay around the 10 year old as a minimum (but have taken 9 year olds on exceptions). At 10 years old it is 6 years to a BB grade (we have a minimum BB age of 16)which is a little longer than normal (in my school it usually takes around 4 years). I don't have a problem with that except around 10 years ago I saw an old documentary on Karate in Japan and Okinawa and in it I noticed several young (under 16) Black Belts. I sort of had a change of heart. I now see it as still needing a minimum but allowing for the exceptions in some kids who are under 16. I have given only 1 Jr BB ever, to a young female who is exceptional. She was tested in front of a board and was drilled through her waza as hard as any adult and forced to spar and do randori with adults at the end. Although performing to adult standards she has worn a Jr BB (white stripe in the BB) for the past 2 years. I am about to make her another exception, I am going to test her for Nidan at 16.......
Can she beat up any adult, NO, but she can defend herself against a reasonable attack from an average attacker, good enough.

[Brian S]

Great post!! Now, I have a question. In your school, you have a 16yr age for 1st degree. Do you have an age requirement as to when they start? What do you do if you get a 5yr old. Do you make them wait 11yrs before they get their 1st degree or do you have something like a Jr. BB to give them in the meantime?

LOL, no. We don't teach young kids, our stuff is much too deadly(kidding).

Generally we have students that are already in highschool or older so it hasn't been an issue so far. I would take them on an individual basis. They would have to be mature enough to take the training seriously and maintain focus. I think people teach kids that are too young these days. Then they are burnt out or think they know everything before they even get out of highschool! The youngest we had was 14 and he left after 1yr.

However, I am in favor of junior blackbelt ranks if they are under 16.

[Brian S]

Great post!! Now, I have a question. In your school, you have a 16yr age for 1st degree. Do you have an age requirement as to when they start? What do you do if you get a 5yr old. Do you make them wait 11yrs before they get their 1st degree or do you have something like a Jr. BB to give them in the meantime?


Actually it does devalue the status of a black belt when you have legions of kids wearing a dan rank when they don't know their forms nor can they even complete a proper side kick. Personally, I don't even tell my non-martial artist friends anymore that I have a black belt in TKD. The last time I did it, I got something like, "Oh really. That's cool. My six year old niece is one, too."

You don't need the belt to gain experience or knowledge. That said, the belt should mean something, and I would never award a black belt to anyone under the age of sixteen, period.


HAHAHA!!! @ "My 6yr old neice is too"

Another reason why I never tell anyone my rank. They have a poor perception of what it means anymore.

[tshadowchaser]

I'd just like to ask even if you had an exceptional student would you still not grade them to their apropriate level just based on their age?

No one I test will get a black Belt before the age of sixteen or eighteen. I do not care how good they are. They are not an adult and I do not award JR or probationary belts. If they do not have the ability to stand trail for their actions as an adult and if they are not able to serve in the armed forces then they are to young to even begin to understand what a black belt means under my system and my teaching.
Kids may have the ability to do the forms, techniques, etc. but I have other criteria that I judge a black belt by.

My instructor said many times if you can not trust the person to hold a loaded gun behind you and trust them with your life do not award them a black belt. I guess some of his teachings have rubbed off on me. I made the mistake once of awarding a black belt to someone that was not ready because of special circumstances and I live this day regretting I ever did so, because the person turned out to be one of the biggest fakes and frauds I have ever know in the arts. I will not make that mistake again

High rank is makeing the martial arts look foolish in the eyes of much of the public because there are so many masters and grandmaster on every corner these days. Most of these proclaim their rank loudly and strut

[Sylo]

I call that a brown belt. And no shame to it either.

The Problem.. is that its not 1975 anymore. Stuff like this won't fly in modern martial arts. If you want to do it this way, remove the belts.

If there is nothing to work towards other than the ability, then your students won't have a problem studying the same thing for years. As long as their are visual goals to achieve its human nature to want to reach them. Noone is going to stick around like that waiting just because of their age. If they are too young to hold the rank.. they are too young to even be in your classes to begin with. The minute you signed them up, you told them they were "old enough" to learn your curriculum.. so therefore they must be old enough to hold black belt.

[dancingalone]

The Problem.. is that its not 1975 anymore. Stuff like this won't fly in modern martial arts. If you want to do it this way, remove the belts.


Depends on one's goals I suppose. You're right that this approach likely would not work in a commercial school.



If there is nothing to work towards other than the ability, then your students won't have a problem studying the same thing for years. As long as their are visual goals to achieve its human nature to want to reach them. Noone is going to stick around like that waiting just because of their age. If they are too young to hold the rank.. they are too young to even be in your classes to begin with. The minute you signed them up, you told them they were "old enough" to learn your curriculum.. so therefore they must be old enough to hold black belt.

I'll accept students as young as 12. I may make further allowances for youngsters mature physically and mentally but I've not seen a child yet that met my standard. I've just started my school a few months ago and have 9 students of which 2 are minors. This is actually the largest class size I wish to have as I believe more students would compromise my ability to teach with sufficient detail and correction.

[Hyper_Shadow]

For the sake of the discussion, if you don't mind me asking, what rank do you hold? Please note, I'm not intending to bash you for your reply, just looking to expand on the thread. :)
Sorry for my relatively late reply, this threads growing at an alarming rate!
I carry three ranks, 3rd Dan, Menkyo Chuden, Renshi Sho. All for the same system: Okinawan Tode Jutsu.

On the flipside, what are you going to do with a 12 year old who knows the forms inside and out, can perform them with awesome precision, can outspar anyone within his/her weightclass and beyond, can complete a breaking demo better than many of the adults, and knows all the information required to be a blackbelt? To me, THIS is what the Junior Blackbelt is designed for.
Absolutely agree. That is pretty much what I would say any sort of competent martial artist should strive for (in relative terms).

Another point, though. Are people putting too much store in the coveted black belt nowadays? We've all probably had belt hunters in our dojos and for the most part they don't last. It's just my opinion but when I think of the words black belt or shodan I don't think achievement I think first step. For me, my training properly began after getting my shodan. An entire different world of information and exloration opened up to me. Are we as modern day martial artists putting too much store in what is essentially a dirty white belt?

[Daniel Sullivan]

The Problem.. is that its not 1975 anymore. Stuff like this won't fly in modern martial arts. If you want to do it this way, remove the belts.
I can think of valid reasons to not use a belt system and student age is definitely not one of them. Keep in mind that the schools that churn out kiddie blackbelts are generally frowned upon by most modern martial artists, as evinced on most MA forums including this one. Someone here on MT (wish I could remember) said that if a child still needs mommy to hold his hand from the car to the dojo, then the instructor has no business putting a blackbelt on them.


If there is nothing to work towards other than the ability, then your students won't have a problem studying the same thing for years. As long as their are visual goals to achieve its human nature to want to reach them. Noone is going to stick around like that waiting just because of their age.
I agree. But why does the visual goal have to be a black belt? With the myriad of belts that exist, a child of nine to twelve could be put into a childs program with a four or five belt progression, each belt being half white, or a four or five patch progression, and then when they're age appropriate (say twelve or thirteen), be moved into a regular class. Then, they'll fall into the same belt progression as everyone else and get their blackbelt when they're in their teens. Children younger than nine should be in a little dragons/tiny tigers/mini ninjas program that feeds into an older child program.


If they are too young to hold the rank.. they are too young to even be in your classes to begin with. The minute you signed them up, you told them they were "old enough" to learn your curriculum.. so therefore they must be old enough to hold black belt.
Gotta respectfully disagree with you entirely. You're old enough to learn most all of the skills that you'd need to work in most regular jobs by the time you're in the eighth grade but not old enough to hold a paying job without a permit, and even then, there is a minimum age for the permit. Some children learn the use of firearms if they have parents who hunt or shoot, but they can't join the army until they're eighteen. Even children who are smart enough to 'learn college material' aren't mature enough or have the social skills to handle a college environment. Many levels of our society have minimum age requirements that we all accept as common sense. Why do people suddenly expect a fighting curriculum to be the exception?

Daniel

[Hyper_Shadow]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylo http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1044410#post1044410)
If there is nothing to work towards other than the ability, then your students won't have a problem studying the same thing for years. As long as their are visual goals to achieve its human nature to want to reach them. Noone is going to stick around like that waiting just because of their age.

I agree. But why does the visual goal have to be a black belt? With the myriad of belts that exist, a child of nine to twelve could be put into a childs program with a four or five belt progression, each belt being half white, or a four or five patch progression, and then when they're age appropriate (say twelve or thirteen), be moved into a regular class. Then, they'll fall into the same belt progression as everyone else and get their blackbelt when they're in their teens. Children younger than nine should be in a little dragons/tiny tigers/mini ninjas program that feeds into an older child program.

I believe that it is worth recognising that in most traditional martial arts there were no definite ranking systems. Children were brought up in martial society and bred for war from a very young age.

[Cirdan]

It takes a dedicated student at our club 7 years to reach black belt, perhaps a bit longer for kids. This kind of eliminates the young black belt problem, even if we do accept very young students. We do have a junior black belt (white with black stripe) but no one have ever tested for it, the closest I can remember was a 2nd degree brown belt. At 13 they must starting learning the adult stuff and prepare to grade for "full" non-striped belt. This of course takes a lot of time so someone ready for 1st Dan testing before the age of 16 whould have to be truly exceptional.

Also I think there would be a problem putting someone younger than 16 under the kind of pressure a Dan test should be. Some clubs use the minimum age of 18 so there won`t be problems testing someone who is not an adult like this. This will make some have to wait to grade, seen it happen, but shoulden`t be a problem for someone with the mental toughness of a Dan candidate.

[MJS]

Kiddie blackbelts (as I call them) exist because a school is out to make money as the first priority. This is no secret

Agree.


I don't agree with toddlers and middleschoolers running around with 2nd degrees either, which is the purpose of the junior blackbelt. It means that they are profecient enough FOR THEIR AGE to obtain the level of Junior black belt. And they shouldn't just be given the rank just because mommy and daddy believe they can do it...they should be given the rank because they have actually earned it. And in my opinion, there shouldn't be that many junior blackbelts hanging around, since it's not typical for kids to excel that far.

Agree again. :)


We all know what a McDojo is, and ranking someone up based on anything beyond ability, maturity, and experience, in my opinion, is what a McDojo is based on. They are out for money first, not the quality of instruction or quality of students. If you have alot of kiddie blackbelts running around, then I'm willing to bet there's a McDojo close by.

Sad but true.


On the flipside, what are you going to do with a 12 year old who knows the forms inside and out, can perform them with awesome precision, can outspar anyone within his/her weightclass and beyond, can complete a breaking demo better than many of the adults, and knows all the information required to be a blackbelt? To me, THIS is what the Junior Blackbelt is designed for.

We're on a roll! Agreed once again!


You won't find many 12 year olds like this, hence not many Junior Blackbelts should be running around.

If it's all about money, it should be obvious.

Well, no sense in breaking the winning streak! LOL! I can't disagree with that.

[MJS]

LOL, no. We don't teach young kids, our stuff is much too deadly(kidding).

LMAO!!!


Generally we have students that are already in highschool or older so it hasn't been an issue so far. I would take them on an individual basis. They would have to be mature enough to take the training seriously and maintain focus. I think people teach kids that are too young these days. Then they are burnt out or think they know everything before they even get out of highschool! The youngest we had was 14 and he left after 1yr.

However, I am in favor of junior blackbelt ranks if they are under 16.

Thank you for the reply! :) Sounds like you have a quality program! :ultracool

[MJS]

Sorry for my relatively late reply, this threads growing at an alarming rate!
I carry three ranks, 3rd Dan, Menkyo Chuden, Renshi Sho. All for the same system: Okinawan Tode Jutsu.

Thanks. :)


Absolutely agree. That is pretty much what I would say any sort of competent martial artist should strive for (in relative terms).

Another point, though. Are people putting too much store in the coveted black belt nowadays? We've all probably had belt hunters in our dojos and for the most part they don't last. It's just my opinion but when I think of the words black belt or shodan I don't think achievement I think first step. For me, my training properly began after getting my shodan. An entire different world of information and exloration opened up to me. Are we as modern day martial artists putting too much store in what is essentially a dirty white belt?

I think that you and I agree on things more than we disagree. IMHO, I think that many times, people think that once they reach BB, that they have reached the end, so to speak, when in reality, I feel its just the beginning. I think I said this earlier, but for the sake of the post, I say it again...BB, and especially the higher levels of it, are when the real learning takes place. We're not learning much new material, although there may be some, but that is the time when we really need to start breaking down the material and looking at it from another perspective.

This is just my opinion, but I don't feel that a 14 or 15 yr. old could really comprehend that level, thats why I think that it'd be better to have some limit as to when BB status, full BB status, is received. I'd say a 25yo 3rd degree vs. a 16yo 3rd degree, is going to understand it better. Kinda like in school...if we threw someone into an advanced math class, they'd be lost, unless they had the basics to build from.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I believe that it is worth recognising that in most traditional martial arts there were no definite ranking systems. Children were brought up in martial society and bred for war from a very young age.
Very true. But that has never been the case in America; America has never has been a martial society.

In any case, belt systems have existed in the martial arts for over 100 years since Kano introduced it, and when eastern martial arts became popular in the US in the sixties and seventies, the concept of a blackbelt was that blackbelt = mature effective fighter, not something that I can say of any kiddie blackbelt.

Daniel

[Sylo]

I can think of valid reasons to not use a belt system and student age is definitely not one of them. Keep in mind that the schools that churn out kiddie blackbelts are generally frowned upon by most modern martial artists, as evinced on most MA forums including this one. Someone here on MT (wish I could remember) said that if a child still needs mommy to hold his hand from the car to the dojo, then the instructor has no business putting a blackbelt on them.

Agreed




I agree. But why does the visual goal have to be a black belt? With the myriad of belts that exist, a child of nine to twelve could be put into a childs program with a four or five belt progression, each belt being half white, or a four or five patch progression, and then when they're age appropriate (say twelve or thirteen), be moved into a regular class. Then, they'll fall into the same belt progression as everyone else and get their blackbelt when they're in their teens. Children younger than nine should be in a little dragons/tiny tigers/mini ninjas program that feeds into an older child program.

I could see this being something to think about. Your saying an entirely different ranking system for the kids, whether it be belts or not. That give them something to work towards.. but doesn't at all mean anything other than completion of a kids class.



Gotta respectfully disagree with you entirely. You're old enough to learn most all of the skills that you'd need to work in most regular jobs by the time you're in the eighth grade but not old enough to hold a paying job without a permit, and even then, there is a minimum age for the permit. Some children learn the use of firearms if they have parents who hunt or shoot, but they can't join the army until they're eighteen. Even children who are smart enough to 'learn college material' aren't mature enough or have the social skills to handle a college environment. Many levels of our society have minimum age requirements that we all accept as common sense. Why do people suddenly expect a fighting curriculum to be the exception?

Daniel

Right. I'm not so much saying that you as an instructor would say "yes. 5 yrs old is old enough to be a black belt". I'm saying, that unless the instructor informs the parents of the child otherwise. The stigma with martial arts schools being all about "getting your black belt" will still lay with the parents. Who will think, unless otherwise told. That their child should or will be a black belt at a very young age.. just because they started young. Its a fine line, and its one thats hard to work around. What age is too young to start? What is an "adult"? What is a "child"? Really the only way to know is to set the age, and leave it.. and not worry about any casualties that might be effected by it. You can't please everyone. I just really puts a sour look on my face when I see kids as black belts.. Jr. Dragons.. little dragons.. or whatever.. I don't mind. But I think I am in agreeance that maybe it shouldn't be a "black belt".

[Daniel Sullivan]

Right. I'm not so much saying that you as an instructor would say "yes. 5 yrs old is old enough to be a black belt". I'm saying, that unless the instructor informs the parents of the child otherwise. The stigma with martial arts schools being all about "getting your black belt" will still lay with the parents. Who will think, unless otherwise told. That their child should or will be a black belt at a very young age.. just because they started young. Its a fine line, and its one thats hard to work around. What age is too young to start? What is an "adult"? What is a "child"? Really the only way to know is to set the age, and leave it.. and not worry about any casualties that might be effected by it. You can't please everyone. I just really puts a sour look on my face when I see kids as black belts.. Jr. Dragons.. little dragons.. or whatever.. I don't mind. But I think I am in agreeance that maybe it shouldn't be a "black belt".
I think you sum up the quandry quite well.:) I also don't see a one size fits all; as you pointed out, you can't please everyone.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

Regarding the OP, I don't really look at the ranks the instructor holds when I look at a school. Unless I'm actively looking for a school of a specific type, I generally just stick to what's within a certain radius of my home and office, then visit the schools that teach the art I'm interested in. I nearly always look at the blackbelt classes. I don't care what the instructors rank is; do his or her blackbelts look like skilled practitioners who have been received quality instruction? If not, then the instructor loses my respect as an instructor.

I came to my current school by way of kendo, and the kendo blackbelts all looked tremendously solid. I transitioned into taekwondo and hapkido from there and at the time, there was an advanced class that I participated in. Now, the advanced students seem to have settled on two specific days and while those classes aren't billed as advanced, its all the same students.

My GM is 9th dan kumdo (kendo) and hapkido and sixth dan taekwondo. His rank in hapkido didn't impress me: the fact that he was an ROK special forces hapkido instructor did (and still does:)) His 6th dan in taekwondo didn't impress me: the fact that he was a 1992 Korean National champion did. As for the kendo, I can only say that his swordwork is amazing.

Quality instruction is what I'm after. I'm not in some fanboy competition of 'my instructor outranks your instructor', which seems to be what some people get into. I just want to learn and to teach my own students to the best of my ability.

Daniel

[hogstooth]

There are very few legitimate high ranking instructors of several arts. Personally I don't understand how they would have the time. I have studied the same art for 30 yrs and have studied a few others at the same time to get a diversity and find out what else is out there. I usually quit because it just was too hard to train in my art, teach, work, family and try to learn a new art. I was luckier as a kid because I had no other obligations except to train and was able to rank in two other arts then but I couldn't imagine how to do that now unless I won the lottery and quite work. Wow that sound like a plan. I think I'll do that.

[MJS]

Personally I don't understand how they would have the time.

Yup, thats a question that I've wondered about myself.

[YoungMan]

Three words: home study course.

[tshadowchaser]

I'll ask the question:

If a person has studied for lets say 30 years how many black belts do you think he could earn in different systems> How many could he reach the rank of master in?

[BrandonLucas]

I'll ask the question:

If a person has studied for lets say 30 years how many black belts do you think he could earn in different systems> How many could he reach the rank of master in?


I really think that alot of this shoud be individually based, since people learn at different rates....

For instance, there's no reason why someone couldn't study 2 arts at one time, and achieve a 2nd dan in both arts in around 10 to 12 years time, IMO...

So, going by that logic, if someone were to train in 2 arts at a time, and stop after reaching the 2nd dan level, I would say they could achieve 2nd dan in 6 arts in 30 years...but I will say this about it: I don't think it's entirely realistic to be able to do this. I'm coming up with that just from numbers, so if anyone sees fault, please correct it.

Also, I don't think the person would be very proficient in any of the first arts that were studied, if they had to stop at 2nd dan to start in 2 new arts.

Comments?

[Kwanjang]

From my experience it not that uncommon for a student of Korean styles to learn and aquire rank in, lets say, TKD and Hapkido. My very good friend zDom is 2nd dan in CKD TKD and has a Black belt in Moo Sul Kwan HKD. He will tell you-- to truly keep up wiith both is an ardous task. I am not saying it can't be done, but there is only so much time durring the day.

I DO find it laughable when "one" person claims high rank in completely different systems. If the school in question (that offers a myriad of martial arts) has quality instructors that are legitimately trained and certified is one thing.

We had this one guy in our town in 1996 who opened a school. The formal extent of his training was a blu belt in a bastardized version of TKD. In his profound wisdom (sarcacm) he opened his academy and offered a "laundry list" of martial arts he taught. (by the way, I called and checked him out personally...He was teaching the vaious systems out of a book) The symbol for his school was, and I kid you not, a rubix cube. His school died a horrible death- thank God it was a quick one. (scratchin my head) I still don't know whay he used a rubix cube for his school symbol. I have some ideas though

I geuss to him it was very puzzling.:confused:

[BrandonLucas]

From my experience it not that uncommon for a student of Korean styles to learn and aquire rank in, lets say, TKD and Hapkido. My very good friend zDom is 2nd dan in CKD TKD and has a Black belt in Moo Sul Kwan HKD. He will tell you-- to truly keep up wiith both is an ardous task. I am not saying it can't be done, but there is only so much time durring the day.

I DO find it laughable when "one" person claims high rank in completely different systems. If the school in question (that offers a myriad of martial arts) has quality instructors that are legitimately trained and certified is one thing.

We had this one guy in our town in 1996 who opened a school. The formal extent of his training was a blu belt in a bastardized version of TKD. In his profound wisdom (sarcacm) he opened his academy and offered a "laundry list" of martial arts he taught. (by the way, I called and checked him out personally...He was teaching the vaious systems out of a book) The symbol for his school was, and I kid you not, a rubix cube. His school died a horrible death- thank God it was a quick one. (scratchin my head) I still don't know whay he used a rubix cube for his school symbol. I have some ideas though

I geuss to him it was very puzzling.:confused:

The only way I've solved the Rubix Cube is to peel the stickers off and put them back on...basically cheating.

Maybe that was his way of saying that he cheated the arts?

Or maybe it was designed to draw people in asking why the cube was there?

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think a lot depends on which arts and how much between the two crosses over.

It also depends on just how much 'mastery' someone wants. For paper and certificate mastery, there are plenty out there who will provide such... for a price.

I think that some of the problem is the perception of some masters, and perhaps some customers, that in order to be qualilfied to teach anything, the master must be some ridiculous dan level in that specific art. Then when they work a few weapon forms into their taekwondo class, they can say that they're qualified because they're 9th dan in whatever art the weapon(s) is associated with.

Daniel

[Kwan Jang]

First off, let me express my opinion that as a school owner and instructor that most people make the mistake that they feel the general public cares about your rank. Most people coming into your school don't care about rank or what championships you have won, they care about what you will do for them or their child. After they are part of your school, they MIGHT be impressed, but IMO it's more of a "my Dad can beat up your Dad"-type of thing.

Having said that, as far as rank goes, once you have a strong base, it's not really that hard to branch out. My instructors always encouraged us (and often required us) to cross train. I began Jujitsu as a child (DRAJJ) in 1971 until my instructor quit teaching when I was a brown belt (I did go back later and test for first dan black when I was eligible at 18 under a classmate of my original instructor). I then joined a Kenpo school until it closed (it was the seventies) after about a year. Then a school teaching TKD and Hapkido opened and stayed open so I kept training (32 years and counting), but in that school the curriculum kept evolving.

My instructors, KJN Tony Thompson and KJN Ernie Reyes, Sr. (partners for nearly 40 years) began as hardcore traditional KMA instructors, but in '78 they began serious study of the FMA's (KJN Ernie is of Phil. decent and Remy Presas convinced him that he should train in the arts of his parent's native culture.) They became some of Remy's earliest American BB's and we all started arnis and the later Inayan and Serrada Escrima. It became mandatory for red belts and above in our schools to study the FMA's at tha point and after over 28 years most of our "old school" guys are certified as FMA guros of various levels.

In 1980, KJN Ernie did an exhibition full contact bout against Benny Urquidez. KJN Ernie had been a medalist at the '77 WTF world championships in full contact TKD (back in the days that ONLY Koreans won gold no matter how badly you beat them. This may sound like sour grapes and KJN Ernie won't say it, but you "old school" guys know what I am talking about) and was close in size to Benny, so we thought "it's all good". KJN Ernie was using TKD and boxing (we'd already made boxing mandatory for red and above and many of us on the Demo Team cross trained at Garden City boxing gym. Several of us competed as amateur boxers, I was 14-0) while Benny was using Muay Thai. Though KJN Ernie did well enough to hold his own pretty well, we started trainig with Benny in MT after that and later with the Fairtex trainers and Javier from AKA among others. Our lower belt base curriculum is at least as much MT as TKD these days.

When the Gracie's first came to the USA, some of the family actually has teaching programs in some of our schools before they opened their own. Needless to say that BJJ and Submission Grappling became part of what our curriculum. Also working with Wally and Leon Jay, we incorperated SCJJ into the curriculum as well (Leon still does seminars at my school and has encouraged me to start a side SCJJ program and though I love and respect the art, there are only so many hours in the day). We basicall phased out the Hapkido in our teaching for the BJJ and the SCJJ, but I reached 5th dan in Hapkido before that.

When Frank Shamrock moved to San Jose, he trained regularly at our headquarters school for roughly 8 years. Most weeks he was working out 2-3 mornings a week and taught the submission grappling and NHB/MMA black belt class on Monday mornings for years. Bob Cook, former UFC fighter and the head MMA coach at American Kickboxing Academy (AKA- who have produced many top UFC champs and contenders) taught the other days and took over when Frank's schedule changed due to other projects. BTW, AKA used to be located in one of our schools and several of it's trainers and staff are BB's from our schools. Many of these guys come over and train mornings at our headquarters school.

KJN Tony and KJN Ernie have always encouraged his students (and "twisted the arms" of his master-level students) to cross train in other systems and bring back what we learned. Often if he liked what he saw enough, we all would be trained in it. This is how I ended up with my teaching credentials in Kenpo and as Tactical trainer.

To amke a REALLY long story short, it is possible to gain legitimate rank in multiple systems if you have a strong base. I have rank in multiple systems and have been offered tsting for high dan ranks in others, but while I respevt those systems and my friends who I have cross trained with, I really have no interest in the rank. I just love to learn, share and grow.

[Kwan Jang]

Sorry for the typos and how jumbled my last post was. My wife was talking to me while I was writing.

[Kreth]

First off, let me express my opinion that as a school owner and instructor that most people make the mistake that they feel the general public cares about your rank. Most people coming into your school don't care about rank or what championships you have won, they care about what you will do for them or their child. After they are part of your school, they MIGHT be impressed, but IMO it's more of a "my Dad can beat up your Dad"-type of thing.
I disagree somewhat. The general public will assume that a 3rd degree black belt *must* be better than a 1st degree, regardless of style.

[dragonswordkata]

On the other hand I have seen some dojos that train several different arts like that, but there is a different instructor for each one, that is a high rank for that discipline. I think that is OK.

At our school we teach 3 different styles; but we have 3 different instructors for each style and we make that known when prospective students come in.

[Ninebird8]

I have high ranks in three different kung fu styles and Yang tai chi. However, all three of my styles are "bird related": Ying jow eagle claw, Wudan Shaolin Nine Bird, and Southern White crane (with a little long fist thrown in). I have Master rank in Shaolin, Senior instructor/master rank in long fist/white crane, and senior student rank in Ying Jow, but not formal master/instructor level there, as the ranking system in that school has been significantly eased (requirements) in the last few years. My rank in Yang style tai chi is instructor level, as I only have 12 years of that vs. 31 years in kung fu. Note, though, all my training is in kung fu and specifically one type of animal. In traditional Chinese martial arts, you were/are either a Grandmaster (head of a system), Master (direct disciple under that Grandmaster/master), disciple (closed door student), student, and beginner. Sashes/belts were added later. Also, as an indication of true rank, those of us oldtimers who can describe brutal testing of 8-12 hours in one day and barely able to celebrate afterwards can attest to Master in OUCH!!! Seems back then our rank was more quantified by how much pain you could describe before tearing up....LOL!!!!

[Daniel Sullivan]

First off, let me express my opinion that as a school owner and instructor that most people make the mistake that they feel the general public cares about your rank. Most people coming into your school don't care about rank or what championships you have won, they care about what you will do for them or their child. After they are part of your school, they MIGHT be impressed, but IMO it's more of a "my Dad can beat up your Dad"-type of thing.
.....

To make a REALLY long story short, it is possible to gain legitimate rank in multiple systems if you have a strong base. I have rank in multiple systems and have been offered tsting for high dan ranks in others, but while I respevt those systems and my friends who I have cross trained with, I really have no interest in the rank. I just love to learn, share and grow.
I agree with you on the first point; most customers really don't know what the different ranks are. they just see blackbelt and the title, 'master' and assume that you are. I do think that many instructors believe that the customers care a lot more than they do.

Regarding the having rank, or even high rank, what do you think of when you think of high rank? I kind of got the opinion on this thread that people are refering to over 6th in multiple arts, while to me, high rank is 4th to 5th, with anything over that usually being either administrative and/or honorary.

Daniel

[Rich Parsons]

I disagree somewhat. The general public will assume that a 3rd degree black belt *must* be better than a 1st degree, regardless of style.

I agree with you assessment.

People browsing the phone book will see Joey over here with a 3 rd degree, and Johnnie over there with a 4th degree, but Bobbie has a 5th degree, and so forth until we get to Stewie who has a 9th degree or what have you.

They will decide to check out the guy that is the close to their house or work and who has the highest rank.

***************

Now I will speak of myself. I have rank in one system and with that rank many would call me a Master and some have. I prefer "Rich" as a mode of address off the mats and on it just a simple "sir", which is returned.

I also have a position in another art. This art has no rank form the family branch I trained in. Other branches have started to give out ranks, but our does not. As my instructor is not able to teach anymore due to a stroke, I would be considered one of the seniors. Also one who is carrying on this particular branch of the style. I have trained with some others and they have also called me Master in this style. I have asked them not to. Not out of fear of what people will think or for people coming to check me out. I hope they do. Maybe they have something to teach me. If not then maybe I can show them something.

So two systems, in 22 years in one and 10 in the other. What people could call senior rank or title or position. How is this possible?

It is possible because they both are FMA's and have similarities that I can over lap between the two even though they have differences that are unique to each style or art.

I have worked out with some guys with decent Judo/(Japanese) Ju-Jitsu skills and rank. Many are surprised at my sensitivity to joint locks and body center. I understand it, and I teach it. Does it mean I have or should have rank in Judo? Not in my opinion. My training is not in those arts. If I went and spent time to get the traiing to understand the similarities and differences and be able to explain them then maybe.

But for me to go learn TKD or TSD or a form of Japanese Karate would not ahve the same learning curve. It would be much more different than similar, in applications and in teaching styles and in approaches. There is nothing wrong with any of the systems I mentioned. Only some would be easier for me to pick up than others would be.


So what constitutes Many?

I'll have one. (1)
I'll have a couple (2)
I'll have a few (* More than two but less than ? *)
I'll have many (* More than ? *)

[hogstooth]

I'll ask the question:

If a person has studied for lets say 30 years how many black belts do you think he could earn in different systems> How many could he reach the rank of master in?

I can tell you that as a youth I experimented alot and was able to train in a few arts. The art I started out in and the art I stayed with was Shorin-ryu (Godan) but I also trained in Isshin-ryu, Goju-ryu, Okinawan Kenpo, Kobudo (Nidan, went along with Shorin-ryu, same instructor), Judo and Iaido. But having said that, there is no way I could have ranked BB in all of those in 30 years unless I had a rich father that left me a trust fund and even then I don't think I could or much less have wanted too. I quite most before I could dream of ranking in them. Just too much time and dedication and too many other responsibilities.

As far as becoming a master in several arts, I think it would be very difficult. I can't imagine the dedication it takes to get to a higher level in two arts much less several. I know there are a few that have accomplished this very feet and legitimately. I just think it is a lofty goal for us common folk. :duh:
Hell, it's hard enough just keeping a full time job, a family, teaching and finding some time for hobbies much less trying to juggle another art. Nope too old and too tired.:wah:

[Kreth]

I prefer "Rich" as a mode of address off the mats and on it just a simple "sir", which is returned.
I like "Jeff" on and off the mat. I've trained with people from other styles who just fell into "Sensei" or "sir" out of habit, and that's fine. I have a standing rule though. If anyone uses an honorific outside of the dojo, they owe me a beer.

[tshadowchaser]

Anyone calling me anything but sheldon or leopard inside my school (unless they are not my student) dose pushups for a long time.

Outside of the school there are only one or two people that use a title when they address me

[geezer]

As far as becoming a master in several arts, I think it would be very difficult. I can't imagine the dedication it takes to get to a higher level in two arts much less several. I know there are a few that have accomplished this very feet and legitimately. I just think it is a lofty goal for us common folk. :duh:
Hell, it's hard enough just keeping a full time job, a family, teaching and finding some time for hobbies much less trying to juggle another art. Nope too old and too tired.:wah:

I think you speak for all of us mortals. I came back to the MAs about a year ago after a long layoff, and I'm continuing in the two arts I used to teach: Wing Tsun and Escrima. Honestly, it's taking everything I've got to spare (in cash and time) just to get back to where I was. I hope to achieve that level in another year or so. Sure, I'd like to cross train a bit to broaden my perpective, but with a wife, kids, and job... I'd be nut's to take on anything more. It would just dilute what I'm focusing on now.

To those of you whose ability, finances and life choices permit you to do more...My hat's off to you. As far as multiple high dan ranks go, I remain suspicious. If you've been a world class athlete and devoted decades to the arts, it can happen. If you study closely related arts, or arts that share core concepts, it can happen. And be totally legit.

But on the other hand, it can also happen if you are just a con man trying to sign up students to make more bucks off your McDojo. And that just cheapens the honest achievements of everyone else.

[hogstooth]

I feel your pain Geezer. I love the guy that has multiple BB in different arts and when you ask them how long they have been in the arts they tell you 10 years. Or how about the "kid" that comes to your dojo and proclaims that he has his BB in two or three arts you have never heard of? I do believe it is possible. My father is a Nanadan in karate and a Yondan in kobudo and has a Shodan in judo but he has been doing it for almost 50years now. He will tell you the same as I am that it is very difficult to acheive high ranks in multiple arts unless you devote all your time and effort to it.
I know there are some legitimate high level BB out there but I think most are just paper.