Could a "McDojo" be a Good Thing?

[geezer]

Right now I train in garages, city parks and friends' basements. But, like many of you, I've been in the MA for a good while and know people. And, I'm content to train with high quality practitioners behind the scenes so to speak, even if I have to "go the extra mile" to make it happen. But for those who are starting out, it is difficult to make these kinds of contacts. So what's wrong with the "McDojo" concept? Oh, I know that the term is usually used to describe a tacky, over-commercialized chain or franchise operation with hard core sales tactics and expensive contracts...with the satirical reference to McDonald's. But just as there are very decent restaurant chains that offer people a product of known and consistent quality at a fair price, there should be room for that in the Martial Arts too. It's not for me...any more than I like to eat at McDonalds all the time. With restaurants and the Martial Arts I prefer to search out something a bit more special. But, for a lot of people, a decent franchise offers many advantages, not the least of which being widespread availability of a uniform product or service. What's wrong with that?

[Cirdan]

We all know what happens if you eat at McDonalds every day. You become a sack of ****.

[qwksilver61]

I don't think It could be a bad thing,as long as the Instructor/s are not bilking dollars from their students as I have witness many times.I believe honesty plays a big part.For instance at some classes/seminars I've seen the lower level students almost completely neglected by senior students,after raking out big bucks to attend.Quality instruction...you have to look for....to the untrained.... buyer beware!

[MJS]

This is why I always say that people need to do their homework. The usual reply to that, is how does a newbie to the arts, know what to look for? Well, ok...what about when you're looking for a condo, a house or a car? Do we just act on impulse and buy the first thing we see? God I hope not. :) Instead we may consult someone who knows about cars or has the car we're looking to buy, consumer reports, and for a place to live, a real estate agent. :)

QS61 made a good point about the cash, but many McDojos are belt factories, and offer special programs to the quick black belt, so in a sense, they are looking to make a quick buck and could care less about the quality, but instead the quantity.

Like it was said...let the buyer beware.

[Brandon Fisher]

Not all commercial dojo's are bad, though there are a lot that milk people for money. As already stated if you are getting top grade instruction thats worth more than someone who only has been teaching a a few years. But extremely high testing fees where no one ever fails is a clue to run. Instructors and students wearing multi colored gis with patches covering them might be a clue, not always but most times.

Just note that commercial dojo's are very expensive to operate especially in more urban areas so rates have to be higher to survive, that does not mean they are a mc dojo.

[JTKenpo]

You can get burned by an instructor teaching from a garage just as easily as you can get burned from a slick used car salesman type. Been there done that lost all my gear. No names, I respect the man he just has no business sense and it was twenty years ago. Anyway, McDojo isn't always a bad thing I agree, most people that try martial arts don't stick with it and if you do stick with it you are bound to learn something even if you are eating at McDonalds everyday. Some will hunger for more and move on to something or someone else and some will be happy getting the #2 every day for there training. The point being that the average person doesn't make it to Black Belt. So if someone wants to say yeah I know xyz art I studied it when I was 4 and made it all the way up to my pink belt with sparkles, hey more power to them. Those who want to seek out the "seniors" and learn from them in the third floor mill districts will and those who don't won't.

[Laurentkd]

We say that those types of schools are great "starter programs". We have lots of kids and adults who start at one of these mcdojos because it looks big and inviting and the name is recognizable. But after a few months they start to feel they aren't getting what the really want and wonder what else is out there. Then they understand the basics of what they are looking for, what they want and what they don't want, and they are able to find us (or another quality school). So, in some cases, a mcdojo actually works to funnel quality students to a quality school.

[MA-Caver]

Thanks to Martial Talk I've learned that I should studiously avoid places that advertise teaching more than one art, i.e. a school that teaches Hapikido and Aikido and Wing Chun all at the same school.
Or one that teaches BJJ, Karate (nothing specific...just Karate), TKD all at the same place.
I'd be concerned about whether or not what I'm learning is the art that I specified and not just because the instructor is teaching me a bit of this and a bit of that and calling it thus.
I mean when they say Karate ... what KIND of karate are they teaching? Kenpo, Kempo, Shotokan, Miyagi do? Hell I've seen TKD advertised as Karate.
I've seen how well a student learns when the instructor is teaching them specifically the art that they paid them to learn. While the instructor may have crossed train (and we've all agreed that is NOT a bad thing) he's at least knows the difference between the two and will either not show a bit of this from this art or make it clear that this is not the art they're training in, they're being shown to help grasp a difference in technique.

Either way, the next school I go to I plan on bringing a microscope and some KY and bring the MT Advisors along as consultants. I want to get what I paid for without worry of being bent over the fence.


Without the KY too.

[grydth]

In my experience, schools offering more than one art can be good.... if they have teachers on staff who qualify as experts in each art taught. It is not unusual for a dojo to bring in a teacher in another art once or twice a week - that teacher's art may not draw enough to support its own dojo; the established dojo can fill it's mat space and draw more people in. It can be a "win" for everyone.

As to "McDojo", things are rarely black and white. Maybe some do teach some useful things, techniques that would be better than nothing.... especially in remote places where quality instruction isn't available. But others can send students out with no philosophy and nothing that will work for them in a street situation. Those whose black belts were purchased for self esteem will lose that, and possibly much more, in a confrontation they are ill prepared for.

[Cryozombie]

My opinion of the McDojo has changed over the past couple years and I'll tell you why...

I think... With the bad press Martial Arts get, say, from people like Gavin DeBecker (who wrote in his book "The gift of Fear" that a Martial Artist is the type of person to be Violent and should be avoided by women) and the likes of the people who tried to ban MMA as "human cock-fighting" and their ilk... The McDojo which churns out belts, teaches primarily kids, and hosts "everybody gets a trophy" tournaments and the like... are GREAT publicity for the arts, because they give it a campy "martial arts are for kids, 13 year olds can get black belts so a black belt doesnt mean you are a brutal killer, its so sporty! Look they do it like softball, Its an after school activity" mindset helps the public image to keep the arts free and legal, and creates an (IMHO) "acceptable" image for martial artists in the general public so they aren't feared and loathed.

*shrug*

[grydth]

You may be right, but what happens to those black belt in name only people when they have to face down an actual "brutal killer"?

If we need to present such a McDojo image in order to remain "free and legal", then we are already dead and just don't know it. A far better tactic would be to publicize how MA helps troubled kids turn their lives around, how many people get health benefits from it, how many people MA have saved, how many 'mainstream' figures practice MA - and its a shame we'd even have to think of doing that in "The Land of the Free"

[Cryozombie]

and its a shame we'd even have to think of doing that in "The Land of the Free"

You mean, of course, the land of the "Free to hire a lawyer and sue you for assault after you kick my ass because I tried to rob you with a baseball bat, because I didnt know you were a deadly Black Belt Killer when I attacked you.."

Oh and as to:


You may be right, but what happens to those black belt in name only people when they have to face down an actual "brutal killer"?

IMO, They chose their art... and would probably STILL be better off than someone with NO training... even if it is only Point Sparring from a belt factory. And Remember, there are people who PREFER that type of training.

[ArmorOfGod]

Its an after school activity" mindset helps the public image to keep the arts free and legal, and creates an (IMHO) "acceptable" image for martial artists in the general public so they aren't feared and loathed.



That is a very interesting opinion.
Strangely, I think there is a huge amount of truth in it.

AoG

[ArmorOfGod]

I think the original poster should change his arguement a little overall.
A school that charges a lot of money should not be chastised as long as it offers a quality program. The problem is the schools that cross the line and charge $200 for $30 gear and offer "Kung Fu Panda" programs and decorate their dojo's in Star Wars stuff while the head teacher wears Jedi robes and teaches light saber moves (yes, that is going on at some of the ATA schools).
As long as the program is high quality, then that is fine, but the problem always seems to be the lowering of what is being taught in the school and the high number of "baby black belts."

AoG

[jks9199]

Thanks to Martial Talk I've learned that I should studiously avoid places that advertise teaching more than one art, i.e. a school that teaches Hapikido and Aikido and Wing Chun all at the same school.
Or one that teaches BJJ, Karate (nothing specific...just Karate), TKD all at the same place.
I'd be concerned about whether or not what I'm learning is the art that I specified and not just because the instructor is teaching me a bit of this and a bit of that and calling it thus.
I mean when they say Karate ... what KIND of karate are they teaching? Kenpo, Kempo, Shotokan, Miyagi do? Hell I've seen TKD advertised as Karate.
I've seen how well a student learns when the instructor is teaching them specifically the art that they paid them to learn. While the instructor may have crossed train (and we've all agreed that is NOT a bad thing) he's at least knows the difference between the two and will either not show a bit of this from this art or make it clear that this is not the art they're training in, they're being shown to help grasp a difference in technique.

Either way, the next school I go to I plan on bringing a microscope and some KY and bring the MT Advisors along as consultants. I want to get what I paid for without worry of being bent over the fence.


Without the KY too.
I have a slight disagreement with some of this.

Just because a place teaches multiple styles doesn't automatically mean there's a problem. For example, there's no problem with the Budokan in Japan, right? I know of a couple of places that offer several styles, with DIFFERENT teachers for each style. It's either cheaper or more practical for them to do it together, where the basic business costs are shared, than trying to do it alone. The only headache I've noted from set ups like that (assuming legit instructors in the first place, of course) is that instructors leave sometimes, changing the nature of the place. But that happens in schools that teach a single style, too.

[tko4u]

I would not like a mcdojo personally. I like to be highly trained, and in my opinion, places like mcdonalds dont have anything extraordinary. I am happy with the traditional school that has high values.

[Nolerama]

McDojos are awesome. They provide entertainment!

Foot Fist Way (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai7ju1OBQIo)


Personally, I think they might be good for a workout, but learning? Not as much as a more dedicated gym. Just like in schools, student-teacher ratio is important, and I've seen some that completely lack any regard to that. In the course of one hour, how is one instructor able to properly attend to each and every individual if there's 20+ people in the class (especially if they're youngsters)? I see that as taking away focus from the MA, and more into the business aspect.

Or schools that make you stretch out for an hour and a half prior to the workout. Stretching is highly important, but I've seem some places that take it to a ridiculous level.

Has anyone at a more focused school encountered McDojo graduates that seemed to have been taught completely wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai7ju1OBQIo

[grydth]

You mean, of course, the land of the "Free to hire a lawyer and sue you for assault after you kick my ass because I tried to rob you with a baseball bat, because I didnt know you were a deadly Black Belt Killer when I attacked you.."

Oh and as to:



IMO, They chose their art... and would probably STILL be better off than someone with NO training... even if it is only Point Sparring from a belt factory. And Remember, there are people who PREFER that type of training.


If you're going to make it a practice to leave people who try to rob and murder you with weapons still alive at the scene, then I don't want to hear any whining about lawyers.:soapbox:

No, they would be better of without phony 'training'....because without it they'd be smart enough to listen to their fear and do as Field Marshal Monty Python advised, " RUN AWAY RUN AWAY RUN AWAY"

[MA-Caver]

I have a slight disagreement with some of this.

Just because a place teaches multiple styles doesn't automatically mean there's a problem. For example, there's no problem with the Budokan in Japan, right? I know of a couple of places that offer several styles, with DIFFERENT teachers for each style. It's either cheaper or more practical for them to do it together, where the basic business costs are shared, than trying to do it alone. The only headache I've noted from set ups like that (assuming legit instructors in the first place, of course) is that instructors leave sometimes, changing the nature of the place. But that happens in schools that teach a single style, too.
Yes I can see that and understand after seeing a friend's school go under because it had it's main financier leave and it basically collapsed under it's own weight. So yes there is that; one bb/instructor from one art partnering with another bb/instructor from another art and both of them doing on/off nights at the school to help keep it going for the both of them... even three instructors could do this.

Which is why I said when I do go to one of these (because at the moment where I live the choices are few and far between) I plan on bringing a proverbial microscope and the ole' KY and check them out... with the folks on MT for assistance when I get the names of THEIR instuctors and post the question: Has anyone ever heard of "this guy?"

[jks9199]

Yes I can see that and understand after seeing a friend's school go under because it had it's main financier leave and it basically collapsed under it's own weight. So yes there is that; one bb/instructor from one art partnering with another bb/instructor from another art and both of them doing on/off nights at the school to help keep it going for the both of them... even three instructors could do this.

Which is why I said when I do go to one of these (because at the moment where I live the choices are few and far between) I plan on bringing a proverbial microscope and the ole' KY and check them out... with the folks on MT for assistance when I get the names of THEIR instuctors and post the question: Has anyone ever heard of "this guy?"
I know what you mean...

But, remember, as knowledgeable and well versed as a lot of the folks here are, just because nobody here has heard of a style, or a teacher doesn't mean that the guy is bogus. For example, I could drop my teacher's name and a handful of people might recognize it. An even smaller handful might recognize mine. But I've got a solid reputation within my style, as both a fighter and teacher. There's not even a lot of folks who really know much about my style...

[geezer]

Yes I can see that and understand after seeing a friend's school go under because it had it's main financier leave and it basically collapsed under it's own weight. So yes there is that; one bb/instructor from one art partnering with another bb/instructor from another art and both of them doing on/off nights at the school to help keep it going for the both of them... even three instructors could do this.

Which is why I said when I do go to one of these (because at the moment where I live the choices are few and far between) I plan on bringing a proverbial microscope and the ole' KY and check them out... with the folks on MT for assistance when I get the names of THEIR instuctors and post the question: Has anyone ever heard of "this guy?"

Re the first part: Theres nothing wrong with offering more than one art, if you do it right. There's a school in a very upscale part of my metro area. The owner is a very established, high ranking expert who has been around a long time. Somehow he got together a lot of dough and built a large attractive complex which houses a "martial arts center". It contains three separate glassed in studios which can be viewed from a spacious central lobby. He contracts with top notch, well established people in the region to teach a variety of traditional arts under one roof. In addition to his particular ryu, ongoing courses are offered in Judo, Iaijutsu, Chinese Wing Tsun, and other arts. Each of the different instructors runs their own quality program and the owner takes a percentage. And, if in fifteen or twenty years, the owner retires... he's got most of his money in a very nice piece of real estate. I tell ya, it's so nice that when I'm out that way, I like to drift into the lobby and just watch the training. Of course, I'm friends with one of the guys that teaches there. But even so, it's just a very comfortable place to visit. Now, if I were ever to open a commercial operation, that's how I'd like to do it.

Now about your second statement. I agree that doing your research is important. But it is also true that there are some great people out there who don't have much of a traceable history. I study escrima with a guy who is terrific, dedicated, and has been around a long time. But, he's got his own system going, and never bothered with getting any kind of certification from any big name people. But if you know the art, you know he's for real. I think if a person visits a class and really watches the quality of the instruction, they will get a truer impression than by looking at certificates on the wall. Asking around on a forum like this isn't a bad idea either.

[terryl965]

If the masses did not want them there would not be so many of them around, my god they are at every street corner it seems. zGive me hard training the old fashion way.

[MJS]

Nowadays, there is a large portion of the martial arts world that cross trains, so looking at a school that offers more than one art really isn't a bad thing. What raises the red flag for me, is what you see someone who has multiple high ranks in a number of arts.

[tshadowchaser]

The trouble with a MCDOJO is that the ordinary person on the street has no idea what is a mcdojo and what would be a good school.

I could give you an instance of someone that used to be in my area that open a school promoted people up to fifth degree in less than 4 years of training, had JR. black belts that had to have the instructor bend and hand break the board while the kid tried his 8th try kicking through it and many more things. Most of his students thought they where getting legit training and did not know the difference till he left town and his students started looking for other places to train. Most of those students found out in a hurry that their belts where useless and that they knew nothing that most with less time and rank could do in other schools.

[Grendel308]

My opinion of the McDojo has changed over the past couple years and I'll tell you why...

I think... With the bad press Martial Arts get, say, from people like Gavin DeBecker (who wrote in his book "The gift of Fear" that a Martial Artist is the type of person to be Violent and should be avoided by women) and the likes of the people who tried to ban MMA as "human cock-fighting" and their ilk... The McDojo which churns out belts, teaches primarily kids, and hosts "everybody gets a trophy" tournments.

*shrug*

You have Got to be ******** me! Bwahahahahahahah!!!:lfao: What a tool. Ohhhh, I have to hunt this guy down on line and see if he's got the balls to give me the raw stats data. I'm guessing not a snowballs chance in hell but I'm a gonna try.:EG:

Lori

[ganglian]

Right now I train in garages, city parks and friends' basements. But, like many of you, I've been in the MA for a good while and know people. And, I'm content to train with high quality practitioners behind the scenes so to speak, even if I have to "go the extra mile" to make it happen. But for those who are starting out, it is difficult to make these kinds of contacts. So what's wrong with the "McDojo" concept? Oh, I know that the term is usually used to describe a tacky, over-commercialized chain or franchise operation with hard core sales tactics and expensive contracts...with the satirical reference to McDonald's. But just as there are very decent restaurant chains that offer people a product of known and consistent quality at a fair price, there should be room for that in the Martial Arts too. It's not for me...any more than I like to eat at McDonalds all the time. With restaurants and the Martial Arts I prefer to search out something a bit more special. But, for a lot of people, a decent franchise offers many advantages, not the least of which being widespread availability of a uniform product or service. What's wrong with that?

My two cents, they all seem to lead to the same pointless level of mediocrity. if thats what you're after, go nuts. I'll pass myself.

[Wild Bill]

Perhaps we should define our terms. Not every commercial school run for profit is a Mcdojo.

[hogstooth]

There is nothing wrong with making money and selling a product. After all it is America. But I haven't seen lemon laws for the MA's to protect the consumer. The problem I see with McDojo's is you may have qualified instructors at a McDojo but problem is the way it is set up is to keep students coming back. Quality instruction goes by the way side and before you know it you have 5 yr old black belts running around. All because of the almighty dollar.
There is nothing wrong with charging for services as long as they are worth paying for. All too often instructors that base there income solely on teaching find it impossible to maintain their students unless they fast track the promotions. Unfortunately the requirements to get that promotion are not fast tracked along with it and you get the 5 yr old black belts or students wearing a belt that is not worth anything. Their skill might only be at the level of 4 belt behind were they are at.
It's not MA at that point. it's a scam. Pure and simple.

[Brandon Fisher]

I have a real problem with kid black belts in fact I just awarded my first 2 junior black belts this year. Each of these kids have been with me now 6 years and have worked quite hard for it and been very dedicated. However their certificates read shodan-ho (provisional black belt) and they have a white stripe on their belts to designate the junior level. On average it takes 4 years to get to shodan with me. There are a few acceptions to that rule though. I have one student who is a 1st kyu brown belt who is in the dojo on average 2 hours prior to the first class training on his own and at times with me 6 days per week and from 10am to 3pm just about every saturday. This student will make it to shodan at 16 years old and with 3 years solid traditional training with heavy conditioning included in his training. No easy task thats for sure but to me thats what qualifies for shodan. If you can't put your very best forward than you don't deserve it.

Now with that said he pays tuition each month so consistent we have never had to bill them, he is there to help regardless of him paying to train. But he gets everything paid for and more. Its really easy to do things like this but its hard to maintain good dedicated students, buts thats one of the qualities that makes a good teacher one that can keep the students interest without selling out.

With that said I have expenses I have to meet running the dojo, however I don't think you have to charge people through the nose but I think you should be able to get a fair price for your time.

I offer private lessons at my dojo but my time is valuable and I prefer to see people train in a group setting so I charge $40/hour per student. I have had many not like it and complain but those that get my one on one attention and usually students that work very hard in a group class and have proved themselves as dedicated students.

If somone offers their services for $150 a month and can get it because people see value in it and because they person selling the service was honest and upfront I have no issue. But when someone signed up just because someone who was a high pressure salesman forced them into the long term contract really almost like making them feel guilty I have a problem with. The head of the association I belong to is charging a pretty fair rate per month and getting it, why is it that he does in a poor area of North Carolina? One word answers it, HONESTY!! Sensei offers a solid program with high value and can offer a great deal in teaching the students in and out of the dojo. I hope one day to get to that point that I can charge $130 a month and not have to much of an issue with getting new students. But reputation in the area you are in helps increase your value to the public and thats what is the initial that sets good dojos apart from bad initially.

[DieRegteAdriaan]

I too agree that a Mcdojo can be ok, I have been to one myself and it wasnt that bad, not as hardcore as where I train, but nonetheless decent if you are starting out. I have seen the otherside (darkside) of Mcdojo as well, I have actually been foolish enough to train there for a year untill my current master walked through the place`s door and I thought eish (common south african term for damn), but thats a long story for another time. I know we are not allowed to diss another school but all I can say is that I would rather call afore mentioned place a laughing hall rather than a training hall.

[Brian S]

Being a Mcdojo has nothing to do with if it's "hardcore" or not imo. It has to do with intent. The intent of a mcdojo is to draw as many students as possible and give them what they want(rank,belts,certificates),but the only thing they get is a false sense of confidence and a plethera of unrealistic techniques.

Martial arts is about learning self defense/fighting ability. It's not about making sure little Johnny gets his blackbelt before junior high.

Thanks to all the mcdojo's out there for making all martial artists look like kids in pajamas on the playground.

[BrandonLucas]

IMO, McDojo's are evil...

The very defination of the word McDojo should let you know that it just can't be a good thing. Sure, if you look hard enough, you'll find something worthwhile in ANYTHING, but for someone just starting out, training at a McDojo will start nasty habits early that will be hard to break in the future...so McDojo's are ESPECIALLY wrong for beginners.

Personally, if I had no training at all, I would rather "Learn Karate from book," than to train at a McDojo. At least until I could afford to find somewhere to train that's legit.

[Touch Of Death]

If you ask the school down the street from your's, you train in a Mc Dojo. Deal wid it.
Sean

[JTKenpo]

If you ask the school down the street from your's, you train in a Mc Dojo. Deal wid it.
Sean


I think this is a great point. If you have two schools in one town and ask each school about the other you will more then likely be told negative things which could be construed as being a mcdojo.

[tshadowchaser]

True but I have also been more than willing to promote other schools near me that are good.
Often I have had people tell me that hey heard that I teach to strongly and that there was to much contact, or I demanded to much of my students so they inrolled somewhere else. What dose that say about what they want in training

[hogstooth]

True but I have also been more than willing to promote other schools near me that are good.
Often I have had people tell me that hey heard that I teach to strongly and that there was to much contact, or I demanded to much of my students so they inrolled somewhere else. What dose that say about what they want in training

It tells you a lot about the fast food and video games generation. I have had this discussion with my wife who is a school teacher. Some kids today just don't want to have to work at it. If you gave them their BB certificate and belt the first day of class most would walk out happy as can be and never return. There are some really good students out there that want to learn but after teaching along time I have seen a decline in students that really want to work hard and stick with it.
The good news is there are some that do and they are our future BB's.

[grydth]

My wife is a professor and Assistant Dean at a university - you'd think the work ethic, academic discipline, honesty would be better at that level? Don't bet on it! Some of what walks out with degrees is semi-literate at best. Fot every one like my wife who enforces standards, how many others just herd them through?

My daughters go to a dojo that requires years of study, very strenuous tests and mastering of large amounts of material to ever make it to Shodan. Yet I am amazed at how many get there and just leave. Don't they know the best is yet to come? Don't they know the skills will erode and might not be there to save them?