First Dillman Seminar

[SFC JeffJ]

I'm going to my first one on the 20th.

What should I expect?

[Empty Hands]

Dim Mak talk and no-touch knockouts?

[terryl965]

I'm going to my first one on the 20th.

What should I expect?

Hopefully he will show some great prssure points and not that no touch knockout ********. I am sorry but when he does that be a volunteer and see if it works on you. Remember he does know pressure points and joint locks, should be agreat time.

[SFC JeffJ]

Hopefully he will show some great prssure points and not that no touch knockout ********. I am sorry but when he does that be a volunteer and see if it works on you. Remember he does know pressure points and joint locks, should be agreat time.
If he does the "no touch knockouts" there I'll be first in the uke line!

[Empty Hands]

If he does the "no touch knockouts" there I'll be first in the uke line!

Does he demonstrate this technique on those he doesn't know beforehand?

[tshadowchaser]

He has been known to inthe past but I do not know if he still uses those he dose not know.
He has a lot of knowledge and some of his stuff is excellant. I'll be interested in hearing what he is demonstrating these days

[arnisador]

I used to attend his seminars. I didn't learn much about pressure points as it turned out but I got some great grappling interpretations of the kata that really opened my eyes. I left the first one feeling cheated--by my previous instructors!

I stopped going after a seminar several years ago. He had been going downhill, but all the no-touch KOs, color and sound theories, different ways to strike men and women (unless they were homosexual), techniques that didn't work if a person's big toe or tongue was wrongly positioned, etc., left me flat-out embarrassed to be there. I wouldn't risk being seen as being associated with him now.

I'll be curious to hear how your experience was.

[stickarts]

I had attended some of his seminars many years ago and also promoted one seminar.
On the good side, I got some interpretations for some of my katas that I hadn't seen before. There were other things that didn't fit into my training plan and now I haven't been to his seminars in years.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have been to a couple a long, long time ago but to be honest I was only there to train with Professor Presas so I kind off skipped Dillman's and Wall Jay's presentations as I caught up with the Professor and some other friends. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[astrobiologist]

I haven't heard much that's good about Dillman... I've never been to one of his seminars or even met him, but I've heard he's kind of wacko and really only uses the power of suggestion on people who he knows or he knows are susceptible. The whole thing with "...well, most people aren't susceptible to no-touch knockouts", "if one toe is turned up and one is down...", and "if the tongue is up..." it all just seems like a bunch of bunk. I've also heard that he gets mad at the scientists, news people, and other skeptics who he can't knockout with his no-touch stuff.

I feel pretty open minded and I'm a trained objective thinker, so I would let Dillman try his voodoo on me. I'm pretty skeptic, though, so I doubt he would want to do it on me since i've heard that it only works on those who want it to. I really have no interest in ever paying to meet the guy, but good luck to you with the seminar. If you learn anything worthwhile, you should share it on martial talk...

[Lisa]

Looking forward to your report Jeff. Very interested to see if he can "no touch" knock you out. If he does knock someone out promise me you will jump up and down yelling "me next! me next!"

[14 Kempo]

... maybe he does 'no touch' knock people out. Maybe they just have no memory of the event. If he can 'no touch' knock people out, maybe he's 'no touch' blanking memories. Maybe you've already been 'no touched' and just don't know it.

I'm just messin' around, of course. No matter what, make it a good time ... good luck!

[tshadowchaser]

Strangely enough I was talking with an old Dillman student ( pre no touch) yesterday. He was saying how Mr. Dillman changed and his teaching changed over the years. We both agreed that in his early years he was a top notch instructor and that when he added the pressure points to his learning he started to change

[Skpotamus]

I know my instructor met him a long time ago. He (my instructor) wrote a paper for one of his black belt tests where he talked about pressure points and how they were bonus points, not to be specifically targeted or relied on, but to be considered bonus if they worked, and how they only typically worked on passively resisting subjects. He went on about the physcological effect in training giving false positives when doing a lot of PP work, etc. His organization went berserk and pretty much kicked him out. He got a lot of hate mail from various high ranking black belts telling him he didn't know anything about pressure points and how they actually worked, and even got a few challenges.

Dillman sent him a letter saying his paper was dead on and gave him a lifetime membership to his (dillman's) org.

Apparantly, Dillman changed quite a bit as the years went on though. (Smae thign with some other master level instructors I've met).

[howard]

...He (my instructor) wrote a paper for one of his black belt tests where he talked about pressure points... and how they only typically worked on passively resisting subjects...

That is simply incorrect. Pressure point techniques will work on a fully resisting opponent. They have worked on me many times in training when I've been attacking forcefully.

It's a shame that the type of fraud put out by, among others, people who claim to do "no-touch knockouts" has created so much skepticism about the effectiveness of attacking pressure points by using valid techniques.

The day I see a neutral, skeptical person knocked out by a chi ball, I'll believe it... and I suspect I'll die of old age before I do. However, experience tells me that attacking pressure points correctly can be very effective. Please note that I didn't say you can knock people out by touching them with one finger in a certain spot, but you can definitely weaken them significantly for a fraction of a second, making them very vulnerable - which is all you need if you know where to go from there.

[Skpotamus]

[quote=howard;1041022]That is simply incorrect. Pressure point techniques will work on a fully resisting opponent. They have worked on me many times in training when I've been attacking forcefully.
quote]

When you were attacking forcefully, were you going all out? Were you intentionally trying to hurt your opponent? Did you get an adrenaline dump into your system? Were you attacking in non pre-arranged manner? Were you under the influence of alcohol or other drugs at the time? Under non training conditions, those are common conditions an opponent will be in. Simple adrenaline can make most pain compliance techniques useless and then there are some people that simply have high pain threshholds. Other people respond differently to pain stimuli. What makes one person gasp and cry, makes another person bite and punch.

The Indiana Law Enforcement Academy and PPCT training courses disagree with the use of pressure points on actively resisting subjects unless multiple officers can restrain the subject prior to the use of PP control tactics. The use of pressure points is considered soft empty hands work, suitable to be used on passively resisting opponents as pain compliance techniques. The use of such points on an actively resisting subject is virtually impossible due to the control needed to properly apply said PP's. Even on passively resisting subjects, the success rate for the PP control tactics is low enough that most officers don't try to use them.


As always, YMMV

[SFC JeffJ]

Well, the seminar was yesterday. I'll do a full review of it tomorrow in my blog. For now, let it suffice to say it's an area of martial training I won't be pursuing.

[terryl965]

Well, the seminar was yesterday. I'll do a full review of it tomorrow in my blog. For now, let it suffice to say it's an area of martial training I won't be pursuing.

So you was not impress, go figure. Looking forward to your review.

[SFC JeffJ]

Here is my review (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/blog.php?b=49) in my blog. Got it done a bit earlier than I thought I would.

[terryl965]

Jeff when you go there this is what it says.

Invalid Blog specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sendmessage.php)

[SFC JeffJ]

Got it fixed now.

[Brian S]

Oh, now we are making sounds into self defense? I think dillman has lost his scruples.

BTW, I was impressed with his stuff in the beginning. I really got into pressure points and even bought his vids and books. Now, I like to draw in them and make fun,lol. I think I was duped.

[tshadowchaser]

Nice review.
Not judgmental at all, you simply reported what you saw and experienced and your thought on it all.
As for the sound part, I have known at least one other person of high rank that tried to learn how to use sound to amplify his techniques. He never taught it and rarely mentioned it but I had overheard him talking to my instructor about it so I know he had tried to learn how and if it would work. Sound dose do strange things but with out a life time of study into the effects I doubt that a person could do much to another human being .

[Brian King]

Thanks for the review. Glad that you were able to get something useful out of the seminar (not always an easy thing to do). Satisfying a curiosity about an art or instructor, stepping into a seminar or event that is out of your usual comfort zone takes courage and humility and doing so helps to temper your belief(s) and skill sets.

Again thanks for the review (the link worked for me)
Warmest regards
Brian King

[DavidCC]

IMHO the people who do and teach Kyusho or PP material have forgotten, or never knew, that the "lessons" they are teaching are metaphors for the real knowledge; things that at the time couldn't be explained by their limited understanding of biology, anatomy etc.
Nowadays we know so much more about how the body works, nerves, muscles, psychology etc etc. yet even when presented with concrete physical explanations ("when the body detects a shearing force in the C1 or C2 vertebrae it will immediately go limp in order to protect the brain stem" for example) they insist that there is some other more mystical or esoteric thing at work ("yes but a kyusho KO uses energy transfer").
I think the use of sound is even more suscpetible to this. I think there are physical mechanisms at work when sound is used properly.
When you, as the defender, make one sound as opposed to some other sound or no sound - your internal musculature is different. The muscles in your abdomen, chest, neck and head are used differnetly and this will change how the rest of your body moves in subtle ways. Say "Saaaa" and "oooo" and you can feel the difference.
However I've seen that the Kyusho teachers almost universally want to beleive that the "energy" of the sound is doing something magical, or something that "science cannot yet explain".
So when I get together with Kyusho people (quite often really) I try to analyze what they are teaching me through that lens: what is this a metaphor for, and how is this physically making my movements or the attacker's movements or postures different than if I was doing it some other way.

[Himura Kenshin]

I know this is an old thread, but I couldn't help responding to this.




When you were attacking forcefully, were you going all out? Were you intentionally trying to hurt your opponent?

Was the defender going all out? Was he trying to hurt the attacker? To maim him? Escalation of force works both ways, buddy.



Did you get an adrenaline dump into your system? Were you attacking in non pre-arranged manner? Were you under the influence of alcohol or other drugs at the time? Under non training conditions, those are common conditions an opponent will be in. Simple adrenaline can make most pain compliance techniques useless and then there are some people that simply have high pain threshholds. Other people respond differently to pain stimuli. What makes one person gasp and cry, makes another person bite and punch.

Attacking different nerves and muscle tissues will result the the attacker reacting in particular ways. Attacking nerves in the inner arm will cause an attacker to pull back if you are performing your technique correctly. Attacking the suigetsu (or solar plexus if you will) will result in the body bending forward. PP grips are not designed to be fight enders, they are most useful for setting up throws or stronger strikes, which when aimed at pressure points like the temple, solar plexus, or inner arm can drop a man where he stands regardless of an adrenaline dump. If you get the nerves firing the body will react. Should you rely on it as an unbeatable skill, no. But you shouldn't do that with anything.


The Indiana Law Enforcement Academy and PPCT training courses disagree with the use of pressure points on actively resisting subjects unless multiple officers can restrain the subject prior to the use of PP control tactics. The use of pressure points is considered soft empty hands work, suitable to be used on passively resisting opponents as pain compliance techniques. The use of such points on an actively resisting subject is virtually impossible due to the control needed to properly apply said PP's. Even on passively resisting subjects, the success rate for the PP control tactics is low enough that most officers don't try to use them.


As always, YMMV

LEO are usually not very well trainind in h2h fighting. They take a tactics course a few times but rarely to they work on perfecting skill. PP control tactics work well enough if you train in them enough. My father was a veteran cop for 30 yrs. He used PP control tacttics and because he trained consistantly in MA, unlike the other officers in his department, he was able to use them effectively without problems on most people resisting arrestAnd to anyone with knowledge of PP fighting being held in a tight grip or struck in a weak spot feels anything but "soft"

[redantstyle]

i have experienced quite a few nerve taps, and have delivered a fair number myself, mostly incidental, in light to heavy contact sparring.

the solar plexus can cause an immediate shutdown of the opponent. do it right, and they fall like they got poleaxed.

you can get 'electric' hits in the arm and legs. definately feels like an electric shock, and a few times, almost like fire. take that as you will...

no matter the subjective sensation, it is NOT pleasant.

you momentarily lose motor control in that limb, and have real hard time concentrating on anything else.

temple strikes and neck strikes (whatchacall...sinus baroreceptor or something like that) make for lights out. likewise for smacking the medulla.

they work just fine when you hit them correctly.

the drawback is the illusion that you can hit them at will, especially the more obscure ones. the plexus is a somewhat safe bet, as it is center mass.

to incorporate them, you have to do an insane amount of training, and never let up, otherwise you lose the edge.

hitting something the size of a dime, at the right angle, to the right depth, at full speed?

not too often, i think.

but it does happen.

regards.

[K-man]

the drawback is the illusion that you can hit them at will, especially the more obscure ones. the plexus is a somewhat safe bet, as it is center mass.

to incorporate them, you have to do an insane amount of training, and never let up, otherwise you lose the edge.

hitting something the size of a dime, at the right angle, to the right depth, at full speed?

not too often, i think.

but it does happen.

Totally in agreement. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif In training, I do ask my students to try for a pp when they attack but not rely on it. If it works .. bonus. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif
After reading this thread I pulled out some old Dillman pp dvds then used some of the techniques, being taught to a group of LEOs, at training last night. I am now sporting a very sore arm which received multiple strikes from varied attackers with inconsistant results. :shrug: As you said, it takes a lot of practice. :asian:

[Himura Kenshin]

Exactly. Is such skill difficult to aquire. Yes without a doubt. Is it impossible. No.

If one trains consistantly and with proper form, intention and against a realistic and committed attacker, then I believe people have a shot at obtaining this kind of fighting ability. It isn't easy, but nothing worth doing ever is.

[Sensei Payne]

Either love him or hate him, Dillman has made a name for himself...I mean were talking about him right now.

I am just glad that non- no touch knock out Ryukyu Kempo is gaining ground over the "magic" karate.

[arnisador]

Agreed!

[howard]

I know this is an old thread, but I couldn't help responding to this...

Thanks, nice response.

btw, the person whose post you responded to seems to be under the impression that PP techniques are "pain compliance techniques". For the most part, they are not (at least not in our style). There's a distinct difference between pain and the body's neurological response to certain PP attacks.
I sense that you understand that.

[Skpotamus]

Wow, wasn't expecting a reply to a thread months old, much less such a hostile one....

OK, first off, it's easy to get something to work in training compared to the chaos of a real altercation. Especially when you aren't inducing an adrenaline dump in either you or your attacker. You can induce one in training by use of immersion into scenario specific drills and realistic attacks as well as verbal cues. Most attacks in the real world aren't life threatening. People throwing haymakers, trying to tackle you etc, your training should include responding to those attacks thrown at you full force. It's relatively easy to put on some padding and have someone attack full power with those attacks during scenario based drills without risk of severe injury as long as the defender's responses are reasonable (AKA justifiable for the level of force given). It's also easy to shake someone during those drills by using verbal attacks such as taunting. You can see the adrenal dump into a persons system when this happens, their skin starts to flush, and their digits start to shake. For reference, at a heart rate of 115 BPM (beats per minute) fine motor skills begin to deteriorate, these skills include writing, precision shooting, and safe operation of a vehicle. At 145 BPM, your Complex motor skills deteriorate, skills such as using shooting stances with asymmetrical arm movements (weaver stance), executing a takedown with multiple components, etc. This is where hand eye coordination, timing, precision, etc start to deteriorate (most sparring takes place in this state). At 175BPM (Essentially your "fight or flight" heart rate), gross motor skills are the only ones that can be performed well. These are movements such as throwing a punch, a forward baton strike, etc. The hormonal response that creates these elevated heart rates is called the Sympathetic Nervous System or SNS, it is a reaction all mammals have, it's automatic, virtually uncontrollable, and it dominates all voluntary and involuntary systems until the threat has been eliminated or avoided. When the SNS is activated, it tactically affects vision by:
Inducing tunnel vision - (reduction of nearly 70% of peripheral field),
Near vision loss - which is the loss of ability to focus on an object inside of four feet?
Loss of ability to focus - by relaxation of the ciliary muscles that control your lens, which causes focusing on the target to become distorted, a loss of monocular vision - you revert to bi dominance eyesight, instead of normal single dominant eye in most cases
Loss of depth perception
Loss of Night Vision - night vision receptors are located primarily in the peripheral field, loss of the peripheral field due to tunnel vision will result in the loss of night vision as well.
It also increases reaction time by the distortion of percepted data and the brains ability to process that data, not to mention the physical impairment.
Most physical encounters that induce the SNS or adrenal dump see heart rates in excess of 220BPM
Hitting a dime sized area under the above stress conditions (there are quite a bit more, but this was getting somewhat lengthy) is impossible.

Look at MMA as a good litmus test, not a real fight, but adrenal dumps happen, high level strikers in mma such as Chuck Liddell, Anderson Silva. Duane Ludwig, etc, all miss strikes entirely, even when facing much less skilled strikers. If some of the highest skilled combat athletes in the world can't hit a roughly basketball sized target their fist, do you really think it's possible for someone to hit a dime sized target under similar circumstances? A little honesty and realism in training will give you the answer.

Now, let’s talk about pressure points. For the last several years I've helped teach a PPCT course to local Law Enforcement under a certified Defensive Tactics and Pressure Point Control Tactics instructor, (where most of the above data came from, PPCT Management Systems, Inc). The data they based their course on comes from medical, statisitical and tactical research, as well as blind study drills on officers in the US, Australia and Hong Kong. I quote from Page 6-1 of the PPCT Defensive Tactics Instructors Manual "The nerve pressure points located on the head and neck are used to control passive or defensive resistance. These locations use a specific "Method of Application" (Touch Pressure) which allows an officer to establish control through Pain Compliance." Skipping ahead through some technical jargon to page 6-2 "The Touch Pressure method of application is deigned primarily to create Pain Compliance. This is accomplished by touching the pressure point with the digital tip of the fingers and then applying pressure until the verbal commands are obeyed. This is usually accomplished within 3 seconds." There are 3 basic PP control points used in the PPCT curriculum, the rest were excluded due to lack of reliable activation during drilling and live situations. They are the:
Infra Orbital PP - located at the base of the nose
Mandibular Angle PP - Behind the base of the earlobe
Hypoglossal Nerve PP - roughly one inch forward of the "L" on the jaw
No other PP's were found to be reliable under touch pressure during testing of several thousand officers during data gathering by the application of multiple people, many high ranking black belts in various styles. These were effective because of the control position utilized in their application (applied from behind, controlling the subjects head with one arm and chest, firm application).
Personally, we see about a 60% success rate with these in the jail and in training on passively resisting subjects. There isn't a middle ground on them, they either cause the subject to submit through pain, or they have no effect. Pain compliance is dependant on the pain tolerance of the individual, foreign substances in the body, the state of the subjects SNS, etc, not to mention that some people just don't activate to some pressure points. We always have a few officers in training that don't react to certain PP's and some that don't react to any. I for one don't react to any touch points on my arms or legs and only mildly to the ones on the head when NOT resisting. When resisting, I've never had a PP activated with any effect. That "electric zing" feeling people mention in training.... I have to ask, was it debilitating or uncomfortable? Did it stop you from fighting? Would it have under an adrenal dump? If they worked as advertised, you would see them far more often in combat sports application. The fact is, you don't. If there were things that worked so well, the guys making a living doing it would be doing it. Hell, you can't keep most MMA fighters away from illegal steroids, why not legal strikes to PP's? Especially considering that most MMA fighters come from traditional backgrounds that included PP training. The reason is that they don't work well in live scenario's, even sporting based ones where you aren't likely to hit fight or flight conditions.

If you know someone who can reliably activate other PP's on passively resisting subjects, they would have to be exceptionally trained AND exceptionally lucky, or they are embellishing their ability to activate them, due to ego or lack of real world experience. If they can somehow get them to work on actively resisting subjects, then they should probably start teaching their application methods as they are far beyond the abilities of thousands of professional trainers, fighters, law enforcement and military personnel worldwide. Their system would revolutionize police and military control tactics and negate several decades’ worth of scientific data that contradicts the lack of ability to use those points on actively resisting subjects. Their system would probably catapult them to millionaire status as well as win them multiple humanitarian awards for allowing police and military units to control subjects without injuring them. You can probably tell which I think is likely.

To those of you arguing with me, I have cited published sources based on scientifically collected data, a table of which can be found in the instructors manual for further research. I have also included some of my own anectdotal, unverifiabe experience. Can any of you cite sources to back your positions? Referenced, verified sources of scientifically collected data and not just BS sessions around the water cooler or your own anecdotal, unverifiable experiences from training in the dojo?

[Himura Kenshin]

Wow, wasn't expecting a reply to a thread months old, much less such a hostile one....

My response was not hostile I was simply disagreeing with you.


OK, first off, it's easy to get something to work in training compared to the chaos of a real altercation. Especially when you aren't inducing an adrenaline dump in either you or your attacker. You can induce one in training by use of immersion into scenario specific drills and realistic attacks as well as verbal cues.

I know, and yet I can still make striking pressure points work.


Most attacks in the real world aren't life threatening. People throwing haymakers, trying to tackle you etc, your training should include responding to those attacks thrown at you full force. It's relatively easy to put on some padding and have someone attack full power with those attacks during scenario based drills without risk of severe injury as long as the defender's responses are reasonable (AKA justifiable for the level of force given). It's also easy to shake someone during those drills by using verbal attacks such as taunting. You can see the adrenal dump into a persons system when this happens, their skin starts to flush, and their digits start to shake. For reference, at a heart rate of 115 BPM (beats per minute) fine motor skills begin to deteriorate, these skills include writing, precision shooting, and safe operation of a vehicle. At 145 BPM, your Complex motor skills deteriorate, skills such as using shooting stances with asymmetrical arm movements (weaver stance), executing a takedown with multiple components, etc. This is where hand eye coordination, timing, precision, etc start to deteriorate (most sparring takes place in this state).?


Ok, sounds reasonable.


At 175BPM (Essentially your "fight or flight" heart rate), gross motor skills are the only ones that can be performed well. These are movements such as throwing a punch, a forward baton strike, etc. The hormonal response that creates these elevated heart rates is called the Sympathetic Nervous System or SNS, it is a reaction all mammals have, it's automatic, virtually uncontrollable, and it dominates all voluntary and involuntary systems until the threat has been eliminated or avoided. When the SNS is activated, it tactically affects vision by:
Inducing tunnel vision - (reduction of nearly 70% of peripheral field),
Near vision loss - which is the loss of ability to focus on an object inside of four feet?
Loss of ability to focus - by relaxation of the ciliary muscles that control your lens, which causes focusing on the target to become distorted, a loss of monocular vision - you revert to bi dominance eyesight, instead of normal single dominant eye in most cases
Loss of depth perception
Loss of Night Vision - night vision receptors are located primarily in the peripheral field, loss of the peripheral field due to tunnel vision will result in the loss of night vision as well.
It also increases reaction time by the distortion of percepted data and the brains ability to process that data, not to mention the physical impairment.
Most physical encounters that induce the SNS or adrenal dump see heart rates in excess of 220BPM
Hitting a dime sized area under the above stress conditions (there are quite a bit more, but this was getting somewhat lengthy) is impossible.

If you train in a condition that creates a bodily change such as this then it is possible to hit PP with strikes or through the use of throws. After all the methods I speak of a combative methods used by Japanese warriors. Pluse not all PP are "dime sized". The solar plexus, the aorta, the floating ribs all all considered pp targets because a PP can be considerd any weak spot on the body where nerves are elevated or muscle tissue spearates. PP are everywhere and even with gross motor movements they can be attacked if a person trains diligently enough.


Look at MMA as a good litmus test, not a real fight, but adrenal dumps happen, high level strikers in mma such as Chuck Liddell, Anderson Silva. Duane Ludwig, etc, all miss strikes entirely, even when facing much less skilled strikers. If some of the highest skilled combat athletes in the world can't hit a roughly basketball sized target their fist, do you really think it's possible for someone to hit a dime sized target under similar circumstances? A little honesty and realism in training will give you the answer.

Don't make the mistake of confusing a sport with a real fight. The energy in the ring is different than the energy in a self-defense situation. Even still, MMA fighters have struck PP before. Knock outs have occured by hitting the temple and the aorta and the solar plexus. Plus you make it sound as if MMA fighters are the most highly skilled MAists out there. They're not, some are skilled in basics and some advanced ground fighting but thats not as impressive as someone who masters a martial art system. Plus, you cannot attack with your fingers in MMA which many pressure point strikes can be triggered.


Now, let’s talk about pressure points. For the last several years I've helped teach a PPCT course to local Law Enforcement under a certified Defensive Tactics and Pressure Point Control Tactics instructor, (where most of the above data came from, PPCT Management Systems, Inc). The data they based their course on comes from medical, statisitical and tactical research, as well as blind study drills on officers in the US, Australia and Hong Kong. I quote from Page 6-1 of the PPCT Defensive Tactics Instructors Manual "The nerve pressure points located on the head and neck are used to control passive or defensive resistance. These locations use a specific "Method of Application" (Touch Pressure) which allows an officer to establish control through Pain Compliance." Skipping ahead through some technical jargon to page 6-2 "The Touch Pressure method of application is deigned primarily to create Pain Compliance. This is accomplished by touching the pressure point with the digital tip of the fingers and then applying pressure until the verbal commands are obeyed. This is usually accomplished within 3 seconds." There are 3 basic PP control points used in the PPCT curriculum, the rest were excluded due to lack of reliable activation during drilling and live situations. They are the:
Infra Orbital PP - located at the base of the nose
Mandibular Angle PP - Behind the base of the earlobe
Hypoglossal Nerve PP - roughly one inch forward of the "L" on the jaw
No other PP's were found to be reliable under touch pressure during testing of several thousand officers during data gathering by the application of multiple people, many high ranking black belts in various styles. These were effective because of the control position utilized in their application (applied from behind, controlling the subjects head with one arm and chest, firm application).

This discribes ONE approach to the use of pp. There are others. Who says I have to use PP to have some one comply with me. I could strike them and cut off blood flow, which works even under an adrenaline rush.


Personally, we see about a 60% success rate with these in the jail and in training on passively resisting subjects. There isn't a middle ground on them, they either cause the subject to submit through pain, or they have no effect. Pain compliance is dependant on the pain tolerance of the individual, foreign substances in the body, the state of the subjects SNS, etc, not to mention that some people just don't activate to some pressure points.


That's why using PP as a form of pain compliance should not be the end all be all of your struggle with another person. I agree with you here, but would like to add that this is not the only application for PP.


We always have a few officers in training that don't react to certain PP's and some that don't react to any. I for one don't react to any touch points on my arms or legs and only mildly to the ones on the head when NOT resisting. When resisting, I've never had a PP activated with any effect. That "electric zing" feeling people mention in training.... I have to ask, was it debilitating or uncomfortable? Did it stop you from fighting? Would it have under an adrenal dump?

Using PP striking or griping is not something you do without intention. If you try it with the lackluster intention of "does tis hurt? How about now?" This will never work. They must be used with much more focus intention, and are often set ups for a throw. They should not be used alone. If done properly the "electirc zing" is a debilitating thing when struck and an irritating thing when touched. It can render an arm uselessly numb, but again the point is not to take them out with the pp but to use it as a set up. It can end the fight, but we are not counting on it to do so. It's a tool for use in applicable situations

[/quote]If they worked as advertised, you would see them far more often in combat sports application. [/quote]

There is no reason to draw this conclusion. PP require skill in targeting and timing. This takes a lot of time to develope and most combative athletes do not have the time in there training regiment to devote to this.



If you know someone who can reliably activate other PP's on passively resisting subjects, they would have to be exceptionally trained AND exceptionally lucky, or they are embellishing their ability to activate them, due to ego or lack of real world experience.?

I disagree. You do not understand the purpose of pressure point fighting. It is best used as a set up for a desired throw, or as a target for attacking. If it didn't work, then why do so many martial arts systems have them?


If they can somehow get them to work on actively resisting subjects, then they should probably start teaching their application methods as they are far beyond the abilities of thousands of professional trainers, fighters, law enforcement and military personnel worldwide. Their system would revolutionize police and military control tactics and negate several decades’ worth of scientific data that contradicts the lack of ability to use those points on actively resisting subjects.

How many police officers and military personel do you know who would put the time dedicated towards martial arts training? Most do not, because honestly they become comfortable with the fact that they always have their gun on duty. Obviously this is a flawed view held by many officers and soldiers, but that does not change the fact that it is a common one. My dad taught some PP fighting to the law enforcement here, but they did not have the desire to keep up with practice, so he had to change the program to be oriented towards a different tactic. I would agree that PP are not very effective for someone ho does not want to devote thier life towards the study of MA. PP targeting and proper application of griping through the use of throws takes a lot of time. It is not for everyone.



To those of you arguing with me, I have cited published sources based on scientifically collected data, a table of which can be found in the instructors manual for further research. I have also included some of my own anectdotal, unverifiabe experience. Can any of you cite sources to back your positions? Referenced, verified sources of scientifically collected data and not just BS sessions around the water cooler or your own anecdotal, unverifiable experiences from training in the dojo?

I cite:

The experiences of my martial arts teacher Michael Eichenberg, Defensive Tactics Instructor for ISA http://www.isatrainingacademy.com/defensetactic.php, Graduate of ESI (Executive Security International). One of the top rated bodyguard schools in the US.

Served as a member of an elite executive protection detail and as an in-house SWAT team member at a nuclear facility

Former United States Marine Corps Security Force Team Member and Marksmanship Instructor

Developed S.A.F.E. (Safety Awareness Fundamental Education) self-defense program for middle school, high school and college students as well as professionals in law enforcement, security, medical, retail and restaurant fields.

Has served as Defensive tactics instructor for Dupage County Court Services Probation Division, Kane County Court Services Probation Division, Kane County Juvenile Detention Center, A.T.F. special units - Chicago branch, and Naperville Central High School

I cite the personal experiences of his teacher Thomas Maienza, formwer bounty hunter in Kansas City, MO and founder of Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu.

I cite the experiences of my father Thomas Scott, Lt. of Sycamore Police.

I cite the experiences of an MMA friend of mine who trains with me. I don't want to give out his real name but he is known as Raizen on this site.

I cite my own experiences as an agent of ISA.

I doubt anything I give you will even be considered by you, since you seem so against PP. I don't particularly care. Your opinion is your opinion. You fight your way and I'll fight mine.

[Skpotamus]

Your tone and manner of speech was belligerent and would likely be seen as attempting to start an argument or escalate one had we been face to face. Your condescending use of the term "buddy" for instance, would likely cause a defensive reaction in most people and put most trained people into a field interview stance ready to respond to any physical escalation. Perhaps you should rethink your use of language and refrain from using terms commonly used as belittling, condescending or aggressive in the future.

I could address each point of your post, but I doubt it would be worthwhile as all you've done is try to refute everything I've posted with non-verifiable data.

I'll stand by the published research and training I've posted in verifiable written sources, and not your anecdotal quotes about what you, your father and your instructor have supposedly said or seen. Which, by the way, you have yet to actually cite any valid information about. What you have done is dropped some names, you haven't actually cited any verifiable works or written evidence based on scientific observations. Everything you have posted is unverifiable, anecdotal data from a third party.

I've met your instructor before in a seminar and a class I went to with a friend while fighting in chicago at an event and attending several training seminars. Let's just agree to disagree on how and what he teaches and leave it at that.

Good training, I'll not bother to post again unless someone cites some verifiable research and information.

[Himura Kenshin]

not once did I use the term "buddy", I don't know where you are getting that from.

I used no language that could be considered harsh, condescending or agressive. If you would look past your own preconcieved ideas you would see that my typing would not have put off anyone who has an open mind.

All data ends up going back to whatever it is one person or a group of people have discovered. Your point is moot.

Which instructor are you refering to? Mr. Maienza or Mr. Eichenberg?

My original intention was simply to point out that your ideas about PP fighting are simply one part of it. There is more to it than you seem to know about. I did not want to start an arguement, I wanted a reasonable discussion. But if you continue to act hostile towards me I will assume you are here to merely troll.

[Skpotamus]

not once did I use the term "buddy", I don't know where you are getting that from.

From your first post on this thread:

Was the defender going all out? Was he trying to hurt the attacker? To maim him? Escalation of force works both ways, buddy.
I took the liberty of highlighting, italicizing and bolding the particular word usage in question. When engaging in conversations, using terms like "buddy", "pal", etc are normally used in a condescending fashion in american society, especially when the two people don't know each other. Tagging someone with a label is typically a sign of disrespect and most people react to it when engaged in an argument. If I started calling you "chuckles" for instance, you'd likely get offended, even if the term wasn't particularly offensive, it's the manner in which it is used. When disagreeing with someone, labeling them is pretty much always looked at as derogatory. Any good defensive tactics program covers verbal de-escalation, escalating phrases and pre-assault cues from body language and word choice.



All data ends up going back to whatever it is one person or a group of people have discovered. Your point is moot.
I agree, I am merely asking you to prove ANY of the statements you have made. Surely your instructors have done some scientific studies with groups of LEO's, body guard trainees, etc, or can point to some such studies that validate what you are saying?



My original intention was simply to point out that your ideas about PP fighting are simply one part of it. There is more to it than you seem to know about. I did not want to start an arguement, I wanted a reasonable discussion. But if you continue to act hostile towards me I will assume you are here to merely troll.

How have I acted hostile? I posted information regarding my experience with PP use in real situations as well as verifiable data and pointed out your poor choice of language.
I see, I'm a troll because I post information from a training group that has scientifically conducted studies with verifiable results that have been repeated over the course of several decades by thousands of LEO's worldwide. While you respond with anectdotal stories about your father (nothing specific, just that he did) and you instructor (again nothing specific, just that they can).

[Himura Kenshin]

I must have skipped over that "buddy" when I skimmed my previous posts. Sorry about that. Let you know though that I did not intend for it to be taken as condescending or disrespectful. I simply use the term in place of a person's name or username when I don't want to type the whole thing out. So your assumption that that is how I ment it is incorrect, however I do see how you could draw that conclusion.

My teachers have not done "scientific studies" with anyone. A scientific study requires an evironment where things can be controled to a high degree to ensure that there are no variables un accounted for. They have both trained LEO, Bounty hunters, military personelle, ISA, and the ATF. Do I have documentation of this? Not quite, but I don't need it seeing as how I know it happened and my goal is not to change your mind completely just present a different viewpoint.

I accused you of being hostile and trolling, because your manner of tone is one of a challenging nature. You demand that there be written proof or a published work (My teachers are producing one by the way) in order to validate my views. You also made a questionable comment when you said,

"I've met your instructor before in a seminar and a class I went to with a friend while fighting in chicago at an event and attending several training seminars. Let's just agree to disagree on how and what he teaches and leave it at that."

I asked you to clarify and you made no mention as to why you hold that opinion, it appears to me that it was a veild insult towards my teacher and his training methods.

That is why I said what I did. If you could clarify perhaps we will be abe to meet on more nuetral ground.

[Skpotamus]

If that was not how you intended it, then ok, I'm sorry I took it that way. No harm, no foul.

The reason I was challenging you was because you were challenging me. I posted my experience teachign PP control tactics to LEO's, adn the experiences of my instructors as well as the officers I've taught and worked with. You responded with examples of how they did work with actively resisting subjects. I cited the reference material that contained the studies performed at law enforcement and military academys verifiying my stance and the standard procedure for Indiana Law Enforcement. Essentially, they had trainees perform varying levels o fresistance against various PP appliction methods to see which worked best. That lead them to developing the control positions for the ones they use, as they were on the only ones that worked with any amount of consistancy (trap the head against your torso so it cannot move, apply pressure).

I asked you to do the same, but all you can come up with is anecdotal stories about how your father used them as a police officer. No mention of the success rate he enjoyed while using them, or how often he attempted them. Then you cited examples of your instructor adn using them in the dojo. We could go back and forth citing unverifiable stories for a year, so I went to the verified studies that you can look up. I personally have never seen anyone use them reliably on an actively resisting subject ("actively resisting" means fighting the officer to get away) or have met anyone who said they could that actually could when we started working. The strikes (typically used against nerve motor points and large muscle groups) are pretty hit and miss when using empty hands once the fight starts. They do work with a higher percentage when using intermediary weapons (batons, radios, etc), IME.



I glossed over the part about your instructor earlier earlier, I apologize. I met Mr. Eichenberg years ago when I was up around chicago for a NHB match and stayed for a few weeks for some training and relaxing. He was teaching a seminar that my friends were interested in as they'd always wanted to do some ninjitsu. They asked me to go to check it out as they were thinking of starting at his school. The seminar was your typical TMA, non pressured attacks. Attacker challenges, defender gives the ok, attacker steps forward with over telegraphed attack that stops well short of actually striking the defender and freezes, leaving the attacker all the time they want to perform their technique. The grabs were static in nature, no lifting, twisting or throwing motions from the attacker, allowing the defender to perform their techniques and offering them no pressure. The PP work didn't effect half the students in the seminar, me and one of my friends included (most were arm point manipulations used as release techniques). Many of the joint locks and chokes wouldn't have worked on a non-compliant partner IMHO, as the control was shaky at pest, there was no realy body control for most of them and most were to reliant on grip strength and speed of application. There was nothing mentioned about balance disruption and only the briefest of mention to striking into the locks but nothing actually shown during the demo's. He was very smooth in his demo's, but only did them with his student helpers.

The seminar was pretty weak, but since it was a group of mostly people new to martial arts, I decided to go check out his school and see what he did there, as he could've just thought the seminar group wasn't advanced enough for the real stuff. The class started off with reciting their school pledge, then a brief warmup and class itself. The class was 45 mintues long, which is the 2nd shortest martial arts class I've heard of (the shortest were the childrens classes at an ATA TKD school) and the techniques were more of the same from the seminar. None of the attacks were performed in a realistic manner and the only progression was from the attacker throwing things slower to faster, but there was no increase in contact or "realism" from intent or lack of good technique (your sloppy, untrained attacks that you see more often than good ones). The contracts (which I am a firm hater of contracts) required you to pay for an additional 3 months after you quit the school. The cost of classes at the time were more than Carlson Gracie was charging for BJJ and Muay Thai not too far away, and carlson was open to train about 16 hours a week at his gym, while Mr Eichenberg was only open I think about 6 hours a week for regular classes. I recommended my friends go to Carlson gracies school as they were in law enforcement.

[Himura Kenshin]

I met Mr. Eichenberg years ago when I was up around chicago for a NHB match and stayed for a few weeks for some training and relaxing. He was teaching a seminar that my friends were interested in as they'd always wanted to do some ninjitsu. They asked me to go to check it out as they were thinking of starting at his school. The seminar was your typical TMA, non pressured attacks. Attacker challenges, defender gives the ok, attacker steps forward with over telegraphed attack that stops well short of actually striking the defender and freezes, leaving the attacker all the time they want to perform their technique. The grabs were static in nature, no lifting, twisting or throwing motions from the attacker, allowing the defender to perform their techniques and offering them no pressure. The PP work didn't effect half the students in the seminar, me and one of my friends included (most were arm point manipulations used as release techniques). Many of the joint locks and chokes wouldn't have worked on a non-compliant partner IMHO, as the control was shaky at pest, there was no realy body control for most of them and most were to reliant on grip strength and speed of application. There was nothing mentioned about balance disruption and only the briefest of mention to striking into the locks but nothing actually shown during the demo's. He was very smooth in his demo's, but only did them with his student helpers.

The seminar was pretty weak, but since it was a group of mostly people new to martial arts, I decided to go check out his school and see what he did there, as he could've just thought the seminar group wasn't advanced enough for the real stuff. The class started off with reciting their school pledge, then a brief warmup and class itself. The class was 45 mintues long, which is the 2nd shortest martial arts class I've heard of (the shortest were the childrens classes at an ATA TKD school) and the techniques were more of the same from the seminar. None of the attacks were performed in a realistic manner and the only progression was from the attacker throwing things slower to faster, but there was no increase in contact or "realism" from intent or lack of good technique (your sloppy, untrained attacks that you see more often than good ones). The contracts (which I am a firm hater of contracts) required you to pay for an additional 3 months after you quit the school. The cost of classes at the time were more than Carlson Gracie was charging for BJJ and Muay Thai not too far away, and carlson was open to train about 16 hours a week at his gym, while Mr Eichenberg was only open I think about 6 hours a week for regular classes. I recommended my friends go to Carlson gracies school as they were in law enforcement.

This observation is the first negative reaction I have ever heard regarding my teacher's abilities, but I suppose it was bound to happen at one point, however your description of his movements sound nothing like how my teacher would move. Perhaps he had a bad day, or a bad uke. If the seminar was indeed ment for people who have had no martial arts training then obviously he would want to keep it very simple and not too rough. As for the techniques not working against a noncompliant attacker, well they have so we can put that to rest. Don't forget that explaining something to someone and doing it for real are often very different and using an uke who is not very good or using an uke who is new dramatically changes the dynamic of the technique because they either do not know how to attack realistically yet or the instructor does not yet trust their ability to recieve the technique without causing them harm. You can't put everything into a technique when you are showing it to begginners.

B y the way,Could you tell me when this was? depending on the time frame it would make a difference as to which ciriculum he was following at the time. Was it in the last five years? It sounds like you observed a skills and drills class usually filled with beginners or other students practicing very basic fundamentals. More stress induced training and free response is reserved for other classes.

I can't change your opinion about contracts, everyone has their ideas and you are free to have yours. Mr. Eichenberg holds beginner classes 6 hours a week, because time is need for the upper belts for them to practice their stuff. Once a student gets yellow belt they are allowed to train in the other additional classes except black belt class. I used to train about 20 hours a week there until my money flow suddenly decreased.

The system currently taught by mr. eichenberg is very realistic, many police officers, an ATF agent, and military personel train under him. I'd say your friend should give him a look see for himself, and you should give it a closer look if you ever get the chance again.

[Tensei85]

Not to interrupt but I thought this link would be of use:

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=423

[repz]

I train in a Ryu Kyu Kempo/small circle jujitsu mix. I will be the judge of any pressure points when they are done on me or others. Too many people leaving their opinions here when they dont hold any belts in the system.

And I am not easily persuaded, I have a long history of kickboxing and mixed arts.

And I will share any info since its more reliable to get it from a student then from some video or from a seminar. My sensei trained under Master Kline, who recieved his black belt in ryu kyu kempo under Dillman. We dont do no touch stuff tho, only pressure point attacks. And I dont pay a dime for training, so im not under pressure, and I train in another style so I dont have any blind allegiance to one art.

[Sukerkin]

The best of luck to you. A man who knows his own mind is a thing to treasure. Not too many would share the same view but if you're enjoying yourself and are not misleading others that it is anything other than that then who is to gainsay you?

One thing to note, this thread was creakingly antiquated and it would have been better to let it's moukdering corpse lie than reanimate it :D.