ITF Only please

[Inugami]

What specific form did you learn in the ITF style? I learned Jhoon Rhee's forms know as Jhoon Rhee's Martial Ballet.


If you don't know how to spell them or don't remember the name you can look at this:

http://www.natkd.com/tkd_forms.htm

It's got most form styles i think.

[terryl965]

the Chong Hans set starting with Chon Ji

[KickFest]

From that chart, the ITF Tuls (Sine Wave).

[Inugami]

Whats the difference between the two? Non-SineWave and SineWave.

[Kwanjang]

Whats the difference between the two? Non-SineWave and SineWave.

From my understanding, sinewave is the "theory" that when moving from stance to stance the practioner body "rises" in transition and "sinks" on application. This concept is an effort to attempt to put more "bodyweight" behind the move. You can youtube ITF forms and watch for yourself. In my opinion, It is not fluid and my left eye twitches- it makes my head hurt. I do NOT practice my forms in this way. I would love to hear an educated explaination for the "sinewave"

[Twin Fist]

can someone please explain this sine wave stuff to me? For 24 years I have been taught that you head should NOT be bobbing up and down.

edited to add, after reading an explanation....

WTH???

[Deaf Smith]

Under Moo Hak Kwon I leanred the ITF froms to 1st black. For first dan on up we did WTF forms (taebaek) Under John Chu (Moo Duk Kwan) we did Pyung Ahn forms (Soo Bahk Do.) Under Sang Moo Kwan we did WTF forms uo to dan.

If that don't confuse you, you should have seen me. I know more forms than I want to know!

Deaf

[Svart]

We train WTF but do ITF forms. We do Chang Hon (Non-SineWave).

[jim777]

Chang H'on here as well, and non-sine wave. The sine wave stuff just looks so odd to me, I can't look at videos of black belts doing forms that way and not think they're doing them incorrectly. They look sort of ridiculous (to my untrained eye, of course). I can't help but feel if there was a big benefit to it then it would be present in other (read as Japanese ;) ) styles, basically.

[Sylo]

Chang Hon forms, non sinewave here.

[TaeKwonDoKevin]

From my understanding, sinewave is the "theory" that when moving from stance to stance the practioner body "rises" in transition and "sinks" on application. This concept is an effort to attempt to put more "bodyweight" behind the move. You can youtube ITF forms and watch for yourself. In my opinion, It is not fluid and my left eye twitches- it makes my head hurt. I do NOT practice my forms in this way. I would love to hear an educated explaination for the "sinewave"

As most of us know, General Choi used Physics in the advancement of TaeKwon-Do.
Sine Wave is a Physics Theory, best represented in Water and also in Electricity. It's the fluid growing wave momentum in a movement. Kinda like dropping a stone in a pond and watching the ripples move outward (up & down) gaining momentum and force till it starts to die out again.
While in non-3 dimensional objects, as in water or electricity, this Theory is sound.
In MY Humble Opinion, it does not apply to our 3 dimentional bodies. The slight drop at the end of a punch or strike can & does add power, but this whole over-exagerated bobbing up & down thing doesn't do it......again, Just My opinion.

-Kevin

[TaeKwonDoKevin]

Oh yea...I teach the Chang Hon
(Non-SineWave) set of patterns.:)

-Kevin

[Kacey]

Whats the difference between the two? Non-SineWave and SineWave.


From my understanding, sinewave is the "theory" that when moving from stance to stance the practioner body "rises" in transition and "sinks" on application. This concept is an effort to attempt to put more "bodyweight" behind the move. You can youtube ITF forms and watch for yourself. In my opinion, It is not fluid and my left eye twitches- it makes my head hurt. I do NOT practice my forms in this way. I would love to hear an educated explaination for the "sinewave"

Ch'ang H'on, with sine wave. However, I disagree with the above explanation, although I know where it came from and how it came about. When Gen. Choi was still alive and teaching seminars, he tried to get people to move in a natural motion. At several seminars (including both those I was at and some I only heard about), Gen. Choi was trying to get people to not move straight-legged, and kept telling people to bend their knees, emphasizing the concept of "down-up-down". The junior BBs stood there nodding and not changing anything, while the seniors kept dropping lower and lower as they moved... thus, exaggerated sine wave as the excessive motion described above was born, with people who were trying to follow the directions of a frustrated instructor with a heavy accent and difficulty conveying his desires verbally.

Done correctly, sine wave is a very natural motion, and much less emphasized than it is in some places. When you move, naturally, your head will move up and down slightly; watch yourself walk in a mirror, or tape yourself, or watch other walk naturally - then compare it to someone walking completely straight-legged, and you'll see what I mean. The "down" portion at the beginning is the natural slight drop your body makes as you bend your knees when stepping; the "up" portion is the natural rise your body makes as you step; the second "down" portion is the natural drop your body makes as you land in stance. Look at the attached picture and see if it helps (it might not; computer drawing is not my strong point).

As far as using your body weight goes - that was an explanation added to the above as an attempt to justify the weight drop that came from the previously described situation. Gravity is not sufficient to add power - and trying to time things so that it will slows your techniques considerably.

[Deaf Smith]

Isn't the sinewave sort of like Dempsy's falling step?

Deaf

[Miles]

I am sort of a former ITFer...though I have a life membership from 1975. :)

I never learned the sine-wave movement but no longer practice ITF forms.

From my albeit limited perspective, when I have seen some folks try to demonstrate the sine-wave, it did not look natural. I think Deaf has got it right that it is supposed to be like Jack Dempsey's sinking step theory. Unfortunately, I don't think I have seen it done properly. Is there a good website with the sine wave demonstrated well?

[Inugami]

Haha so i'm the only ITF guy who doesn't practice Chang Hon.

=(

[Kwanjang]

Ch'ang H'on, with sine wave. However, I disagree with the above explanation, although I know where it came from and how it came about. When Gen. Choi was still alive and teaching seminars, he tried to get people to move in a natural motion. At several seminars (including both those I was at and some I only heard about), Gen. Choi was trying to get people to not move straight-legged, and kept telling people to bend their knees, emphasizing the concept of "down-up-down". The junior BBs stood there nodding and not changing anything, while the seniors kept dropping lower and lower as they moved... thus, exaggerated sine wave as the excessive motion described above was born, with people who were trying to follow the directions of a frustrated instructor with a heavy accent and difficulty conveying his desires verbally.

Done correctly, sine wave is a very natural motion, and much less emphasized than it is in some places. When you move, naturally, your head will move up and down slightly; watch yourself walk in a mirror, or tape yourself, or watch other walk naturally - then compare it to someone walking completely straight-legged, and you'll see what I mean. The "down" portion at the beginning is the natural slight drop your body makes as you bend your knees when stepping; the "up" portion is the natural rise your body makes as you step; the second "down" portion is the natural drop your body makes as you land in stance. Look at the attached picture and see if it helps (it might not; computer drawing is not my strong point).

As far as using your body weight goes - that was an explanation added to the above as an attempt to justify the weight drop that came from the previously described situation. Gravity is not sufficient to add power - and trying to time things so that it will slows your techniques considerably.

Kacey, My explanation was "general" Please desribe and specify how this is natural? in my 28 years I have seen and understand the concept of the c- step, i understand the concept of body shifting and timing. if you look at it from a body mechanic stand point and basic science, The fastest way form point A to point B is --A STRAIGHT LINE. What i have seen of the "sinewave" is laughable. Please give me a link so I can see it done correctly. After all I am still a student at 5th dan. As far as I am concerned I have many Grand champion forms trophies, with all forms done with absolute detail-Keeping my hips and head on an evn plane, still delivering awsome power and snap on the technique, yet enough lock to highlite the particular stance with its techique, and moveng fluidly. With all respect

[TaeKwonDoKevin]

Kacey, My explanation was "general" Please desribe and specify how this is natural? in my 28 years I have seen and understand the concept of the c- step, i understand the concept of body shifting and timing. if you look at it from a body mechanic stand point and basic science, The fastest way form point A to point B is --A STRAIGHT LINE. What i have seen of the "sinewave" is laughable. Please give me a link so I can see it done correctly. After all I am still a student at 5th dan. As far as I am concerned I have many Grand champion forms trophies, with all forms done with absolute detail-Keeping my hips and head on an evn plane, still delivering awsome power and snap on the technique, yet enough lock to highlite the particular stance with its techique, and moveng fluidly. With all respect

Kwanjang - A good post, to the point.
I must admitt, I am in agreement with you, except for maybe the laughable part.
-Kevin

[Kwanjang]

Kwanjang - A good post, to the point.
I must admitt, I am in agreement with you, except for maybe the laughable part.
-Kevin

Thank you! And your right I should not have used the word "laughable" I would like to see someone highly trained demonstrate this concept, so I could better understand it. After all, I am still a student.

[Kacey]

Thank you! And your right I should not have used the word "laughable" I would like to see someone highly trained demonstrate this concept, so I could better understand it. After all, I am still a student.

I haven't seen a good video yet - but hopefully the following will suffice.

As I said, the problem is that many people over-exaggerate the motion. Sine wave is a very small part of power - but because Gen. Choi was trying to get people to do it, and repeatedly yelled at students in seminars, with the screaming aimed at junior BBs who stood there nodding and changing nothing, and causing the senior students to dip lower and lower... well, it got over-emphasized, and is over-done.

I repeat: sine wave should be a natural motion, the down-up-down being the motion you get when you walk, not the exaggerated drop/rise/drop that many people do. It was a misunderstanding.

This video is not bad - a little too much up and down, but not too much.

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Contrast the relatively little down/up/down in the first video with the almost bouncing motion in this second one - this one is a more exaggerated sine wave, and is, IMHO, too much.

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This last one shows the truly exaggerated sine wave that became the norm for some time, and still is the norm in some Ch'ang H'on style classes.

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[dancingalone]

I'm not a fan of the sine wave movement. I wonder what percentage of TKD people in the world use it? It's definitely a minority from my anecdotal experience.

[Inugami]

I cant believe no one besides me uses Jhoon Rhee's forms.

[StuartA]

Just to add to the pot.. there are actually two types of sine wave performed these days.. see: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Patterns_Sinewave.html

I'm in the 'original' sine-wave camp.. now often termed 'natural motion' to diffientiate it from the newer (down/up/down) version. That said, its because thats how I learnt it, Ive no issues with the 'horizontal' patterns that people do, but dont agree with the over-emphasised version either.

Then again, I dont see patterns as a performance first, but a training tool. Looking nice at comps is secondary and a by-product IMO.

Stuart

[Svart]

I cant believe no one besides me uses Jhoon Rhee's forms.

Its devastating when you find out there are other things in life isnt it.

[dancingalone]

I cant believe no one besides me uses Jhoon Rhee's forms.

Well, you did ask ITF style people only. ITF people do Chang Hon patterns. Mr. Rhee, although at one point affiliated with the ITF, has been doing his own thing for years. Properly termed, if you learned Jhoon Rhee martial ballet as your primary set of forms, you're not really ITF either, not that it's saying much these days with the three different splinter orgs.

[Kwanjang]

We practice both taegeuk and chong hon forms. The ITF forms are very demanding and commanding.

[jim777]

The funny thing is that my favorite books of the ITF forms are the ones done by GM Jhoon Rhee :D