KATA: Is more better?

[Mrluckyman]

Kata: a formal exercise of punches, kicks, stances, blocks, strikes done in a prearranged pattern. Kata is designed with self defense movements and secret "hidden" techniques that when sufficiently practiced become self evident. A method to practice self defense movements while attaining physical fitness. An excellent method of physcial fitness and cardio.

While those who don't know a multitude will argue that more is NOT better, as it is impossible for one to master more than a few.... I would disagree....Stances, Punches, Kicks, etc. are done the same whether in the street or dojo..one kata or another.. More kata offer more diverse study for individuals with the ability to learn, retain, and yes master the movements.... Of course there is the complete "under the surface" multitude of henka waza, bunkai oyo, etc. "some go deep, some go wide" Most will argue; "To truly understand a kata one must do more than scratch the surface." I agree, but I think we sell our selves short to believe that it takes "a lifetime of study" to master a few kata.....It takes a lifetime to master a few, if a few is all you know..... We humans are capable of so much more.... I practice more kata than most karate-kas....that is because my Sensei taught me more than a few....this was not a request, it was a requirement. I have been told by more than one that "Quality is better than quantity" and I agree...... I just believe that it is possible to have both! Quality OF Quantity! and visaversa! Its in the practice methods, and amount of time on the floor.

Incidentially..... this was usually said after looking at my systems kata list...... Not one of them refused to learn a new kata when given the chance.... and why not, If you have been practicing the same kata list for many years, wouldn't it be nice,refreshing and invigorating to learn something new that is authentic?

Lets quit saying it TAKES a lifetime to master..... those of us who have practiced more than half our lives and continue to do so, do it for one reason, NOT MASTERY, we practice because we love what we do... nothing more, nothing less...... those who didn't fall in love with Kata, quit long ago or will shortly.,....

Is more better? NO its not better, however, it is invigorating,challenging, and a lot of fun!

[still learning]

Hello, Any form of excercise? ...the more is usually better than doing very little.

Kata is an excercise.......NO one fights in Kata forms on the streets.

Street survivial is ANYTHING GOES....NO rules...

So doing more is better? ....from the excercise point of view? ....YES! and anytime you can train your body to do certain things is good.

Aloha,

PS: Fights can be very fast..furious..not stopping.. KATA"S help builds stamina!

[Grenadier]

Kata is part of the Karate, and it's something that makes your techniques better, along with conditioning the body and mind. If someone has good kata, it usually translates to their being good at the other aspects of the Karate, such as kumite. If anything, it's not unusual to look at the USA-NKF tournaments, and see that those who place highly in their kata divisions, also end up doing very well in their kumite and kobudo divisions too.

If someone is capable of learning the kata, and developing it to the levels that they want to, then I see no problem at all when it comes to learning several dozen kata. The number of kata isn't really an issue, as long as someone has a strong set of fundamentals that they can use during the performance of such kata. You can have both quantity AND quality, and not sacrifice either.

I've known quite a few Shito Ryu practitioners who know around 50 kata, and that because their fundamental techniques are excellent, they can make any of them look fantastic, as long as they keep them practiced. Conversely, I've also seen quite a few practitioners who tried to learn as many kata as they could, yet, all they ended up with, were a set of several dozen sequences that they performed very poorly.

[Kwanjang]

Kata or form is GREAT! Thank you for your wonderful post!

[Brian S]

Hello, Any form of excercise? ...the more is usually better than doing very little.

Kata is an excercise.......NO one fights in Kata forms on the streets.

I certainly hope people aren't being taught to use kata as if in a fight,lol. Pre-arranged fighting is a watered down way to teach kata. Applying the moves to self defense situations is a good way.


Street survivial is ANYTHING GOES....NO rules...

Street survival? Are there homeless people reading this stuff? lol.



So doing more is better? ....from the excercise point of view? ....YES! and anytime you can train your body to do certain things is good.

Aloha,

PS: Fights can be very fast..furious..not stopping.. KATA"S help builds stamina!


If you are doing kata just for excercise then you are wasting your time imo. Just do tae bo for fitness if that's your goal. Kata should be learned to find the most efficient way of ending an attack.

[Hyper_Shadow]

Kata is the core of karate, it is the only uninterruptible information that hasn't changed by being passed down over the years. No one kata, no any kata, is capable of being mastered, we all strive to it and continue to strive, but that is what shimeijurasan is. A level of exactitude that is the goal of, though beyond the reach of, all practitioners.

[Grenadier]

Kata is an excercise.......NO one fights in Kata forms on the streets.


Of course they don't. At the same time, nobody street fights using classical grappling drills, where a partner extends his hand out and cooperates.

For that matter, nobody is going to fight in a tournament-style fight using the full blown movement taught in the kata. Strikes will be more compact, blocks will be shorter movements than their fundamental training preached. More reliance on the body movement to generate power will be seen.

However, when someone *practices* the techniques using the full movements (whether it be basic training or kata training), it gives them a better understanding of the mechanics involved, along with developing such mechanics, and as you stated earlier, conditioning.

Someone who rigorously trains in kata, and has an understanding of the proper mechanics, and fundamentals, is going to deliver a nasty punch or kick.

[Cirdan]

I like the way Chris Denwood explains it:



All of the genuine training in karate is derived from the kata. If we look more closely at the fundamental techniques in karate, it is my suggestion that these are essentially a physical method of being able to repetitively develop the principles contained within them. The key here lies in the principles rather than the actual techniques. I like to think of our common basic techniques as being the founder's way of best expressing those principles in ‘formal' action. Remember that without a physical technique to exist in, principles hold no form at all. We have to think about what's inside the technique in order to make the repetitive training of it worthwhile, since many of these don't (at face value) indicate any strong practical benefits.
For instance, who in their right mind would ever use the technique of junzuki (as it's commonly performed and understood in kihon) in a live fight? Only the most brave or brainless I'd expect! But let me ask you this question in another way – how many individuals would use the principles gained from practising the technique of junzuki in a live fight? If you study the concepts contained in this seemingly impractical technique, a whole range of useful elements can be extracted and adapted to increase your overall ability to apply functional movements. This is of course only if you have an open mind. In reality, this is exactly what karate demands and is what I believe makes the art so special. Among other things, practising junzuki repetitively and with the right mind (one that assesses principles) can actually teach us about balance, co-ordination, weight distribution, movement, creating energy, transferring energy, stabilisation and efficient motion, which I'm sure you'll agree are critical in becoming proficient in self defence.
(from an article at Iain Abernethy`s site)

[twendkata71]

Personally I look at kata as the encyclopedia of karate or a text book of sorts. The more kata you have learned and researched the broader your base of knowledge. Now I'm not saying learn a large number of kata just to learn kata. You have to research, study, practice, and break down each kata. Polish each one to infinity. And it does take a long time to really study and perfect these kata. I would suggest if you are going to start on such a journey, you should be at an advanced black belt level to start with,not at a intermediate or shodan/nidan level. At these levels you are just scratching the surface of total knowledge of karate. And in many cases the teachers won't even teach the really advanced aspects of karate until sandan or higher. A good teacher will know when its the right time and if the student it ready for such knowledge.
The thirst for more kata knowledge is apparent in even the most "Traditional " styles of karate like Shotokan, where some of the modern masters, like Kanazawa Hanshi, and Asai Hanshi have added or created extra kata that are not part of their traditional curriculum of kata.
Kanazawa added several Goju ryu kata to his curriculum like Seipai, suparempei, and seienchin from his trips to Okinawa to further his own knowledge. Asai created several kata for his organization's curriculum.
Mabuni's Shito ryu curriculum has as many as 60 kata. Which in my mind I don't see how anyone person could learn that many kata and effectively really know and polish these kata. In some cases certain kata are taught to certain black belts, no one person has learned the total curriculum of kata.

[Mrluckyman]

Only the most brave or brainless I'd expect! But let me ask you this question in another way – how many individuals would use the principles gained from practising the technique of junzuki in a live fight?


I have used a junzuki in a live fight...... it was very effective knocking both attackers to the ground....they did not get up on their own either...however, I have practiced precise techniques through lots of kata practice for over 30 years....someone less practiced might not have the same effectiveness....moral is: "Proper Practice Prevents Poor Performance....

[Brian S]

I like the way Chris Denwood explains it:


(from an article at Iain Abernethy`s site)

I have a poblem with Abernathy's theoris he sells. His mind is so open that his brain fell out. Kata does not translate to modern mma fighting. Kata techniques are for quickly and efficiently ending an attack. They are not for sprawling,mounting,and doing an armbar.

The fact is, he is making money from his theories. It's only a matter of time before more theories emerge.

[tshadowchaser]

Is more better???

Well that depends on what is taught in each one. If only the same techniques are taught in every one than a few will do, but if different techniques are the emphases of each than more is better.

[Cirdan]

I have a poblem with Abernathy's theoris he sells. His mind is so open that his brain fell out. Kata does not translate to modern mma fighting. Kata techniques are for quickly and efficiently ending an attack. They are not for sprawling,mounting,and doing an armbar.


I might not be up to date on Abernathy`s latest work but is this not exactly what he is saying too?

[Mrluckyman]

. Which in my mind I don't see how anyone person could learn that many kata and effectively really know and polish these kata. In some cases certain kata are taught to certain black belts, no one person has learned the total curriculum of kata.

Not all but....It has taken 36 years @ approx. 2 hours/day...I have learned 134, --- 77 Karate,33 Kobudo, 24 Iaido, including Kihon waza, Bunkai Oyo, Henka Waza..All are traditional and were learned from some of the greatest Sensei......Some Kata are similar, i.e. Rohai, Rohai Nidan, Rohai Sandan all use the same basic pattern but vary the techniques.... in this way they teach the same theory but different methodology to execute with variety of weapons, i.e. openhand block, verses closed hand strike.... Most are very different with amazingly simple and yet complex bunkai oyo and resulting henka waza.....Some envolve a variety of Bunkai Oyo encompassing Karate, Jiu Jitsu, Aikido techniques...some may say that's not traditional, but that is how I was taught.... I respect my sensei's and there fore I don't change them.... I just practice them.... That's what Sensei wanted.... someone to practice..... If you know 5 or 50 it doesn't matter..... practice is what matters.... I am thankful the Lord God Almighty allowed me the privilege of learning and practicing martial arts while in this life..... thank you Jesus! thank you sensei!

[Brian S]

I might not be up to date on Abernathy`s latest work but is this not exactly what he is saying too?


His articles about karate on the ground and his interpretations of kata are just take offs of mma.

Karate does not encompass all ranges and some people just can't grasp that. They wish to somehow legitimize karate by spreading that it covers everything when in fact it does not.

[Hyper_Shadow]

As far as I'm concerned there is no way that anyone can say that they've managed to 'learn' any kata. Two fatal flaws in todays kata training:

1.We don't live in the age when they were created, so we can't actually ask the guy who made them what the moves mean.
2.Even if we did know the original application; they could be a load of crap. People like to inflate their own egos by spreading crap now, who's to say they weren't doing it 400-600 years ago?

As far as training basic techniques is concerned, there are many practical uses for kata. Both strengthening of the body and conditioning the mind for the rigors of long hard training. In regards to bunkai, who's to say they've learned a kata? There are tonnes of different applications to a single movement and there are going to be new observations all the time to improve an existing application.
To stay on topic, yes, more is better, but on it's own it's nothing. Learning a couple of applications is also equally ineffective as you then haven't actually studied the workings of the kata itself. Now if you were to learn the movements, rythm, balance grace and timing; couple that then with a few shown applications for base principles you can then progress onto the next and most important stage of kata development and that's being able to spot techniques in kata autonomously. It is at this stage that the movements for the kata become transparent and the technique shows its true combative form.
However, it is at this stage, that the true focus of refining and tuning the base movements to the kata is usually lost. People tend to learn the moves, then some application then proceed to perform sloppy and unpracticed kata. This goes against the very grain of shimeijurasan.
They all work in coexistence. Do-Jitsu-Jutsu. You can't have one without the other.
I like to think of it like a human body. The Do, makes up the skeleton. It gives shape and proportion to the overall body. The Jitsu is like the skin. It is the outer layer that is seen by everyone and gives definition to the body. The Jutsu is the heart and organs. The things we don't see and can't understand unless years of study are undertaken to do so. Yet they allow the body to work and exist. No skeleton means you have a heap of chaotic skin on the floor. No skin means your organs fall out and die. No organs means the entire body cannot ever live.

A bit poetic I know, but it's the understanding I've carried since I was about 12 years old.

His articles about karate on the ground and his interpretations of kata are just take offs of mma.



Karate does not encompass all ranges and some people just can't grasp that. They wish to somehow legitimize karate by spreading that it covers everything when in fact it does not.

On that front I have to disagree. I'm not a big fan of Ian Abernethy's latest work, I have to agree he does seem to be pandering towards a more MMA oriented audience. However, as far as karate is concerned it encompasses pretty much everything. It means empty hand. If you have empty hands on the ground, it's still karate, if you have empty hands when grappling with someone, it's still karate. It's narrow minded and very linear branches of karate that will argue otherwise. To argue over something like that however is like trying to argue whether it's better to eat arsenic or cyanide. You just can't form a proper argument because in the end it misses the fact that both the arsenic and cyanide will still end with the same effect, just different ways.
As for legitimizing karate. What for? As long as it works it's legitimate enough. I been training in karate for years. I can ground fight and fight standing up. I can grapple and I can exchange blows. Remember that those farmers and poorer folk that relied on old Tode Jutsu from the chinese had to be able to fight with what they had and without causing too much risk to themsleves or their farmland (what goods and injured rice farmer who's field is on fire?). It has been used in wartime for centuries, so as far as I see it that seems legitimate enough, that's with the support of todays MA society or not.


Most are very different with amazingly simple and yet complex bunkai oyo and resulting henka waza.....Some envolve a variety of Bunkai Oyo encompassing Karate, Jiu Jitsu, Aikido techniques...some may say that's not traditional, but that is how I was taught.... I respect my sensei's and there fore I don't change them.... I just practice them.... That's what Sensei wanted.... someone to practice..... If you know 5 or 50 it doesn't matter..... practice is what matters.

I like how you train. Believe me that approach is probably more traditonal than people would have you believe.

[TimoS]

In my opinion, regarding karate kata, less is more. There are so many applications to each kata and just knowing them isn't enough. You have to train them constantly so you can tap into those should the need arise without a split second hesitation


I have learned 134, --- 77 Karate,33 Kobudo, 24 Iaido, including Kihon waza, Bunkai Oyo, Henka Waza..

What style has 77 empty hand kata? Incredible amount!
In the kobudo I've started practising we have only 6 different bo kata to be learned until 5. dan, plus 2 sai kata and 1 kata each for tonfa, nunchaku, nunte and eku, and in my opinion, that is more than enough. Sure the booklet mentions something like 26 different bo kata, but what's the point in learning only the outside form and maybe "academically" know the applications (or I should say: know about the applications). Been there and done that and now I want to learn to really use the stuff and less is truly more there! In karate we're told to select maybe three kata and then really get to know those, practise those daily and just maintain the others (we have something like 19 empty hand kata, of which 7 or 8 are part of the "core curriculum" and 1 bo kata, so there's plenty to choose from)
The main question to me really is, am I 100% confident I could use those kata in a real life situation? Are all those applications of all those kata so well learned that I could call upon them without thinking?

[Grenadier]

What style has 77 empty hand kata? Incredible amount!


Probably a combination of two or more styles. For example, someone who has studied Shito Ryu and Shotokan Karate could certainly have that number of empty hand kata. There could easily be significant overlap, though, since both systems have a lot of similar kata (Enpi, Bassai Dai / Sho, Gankaku, Gojushiho Sho / Dai, Jion, Naihanchi / Tekki, etc).

[twendkata71]

Mrluckyman, is the president of the Traditional karate association, a shito ryu stylist primarily ,Training in Motobuha shito ryu, among others. So, his training history is extensive. This is why he knows so many kata.
In my case I know so many kata because of the different kata I have learned from the four major styles of japanese karate and Okinawan shorin ryu, while associated with the USAKF team coach and technical commitee head for WUKO(now WKF)(Don Madden)and the president of the USAKF(George Anderson) and former president of the USANKF(Roger Jarret) , Learning to be a referee you had the opportunity to learn all of the kata of the four major styles in WKF. But, you can't just learn them you have to work on mastering each one. knowing each kata in depth and polishing each one. It has taken me 27 years to learn the 42 kata and 15 weapons that I know. And I admit I have not yet mastered half of them. But, I keep working on it, and trying hard every day. I want to be able to give my students the best knowledge I can.
If you would like a list of teachers I have learned kata from, please private message me.

[jtbdad]

Kata: a formal exercise of punches, kicks, stances, blocks, strikes done in a prearranged pattern. Kata is designed with self defense movements and secret "hidden" techniques that when sufficiently practiced become self evident. A method to practice self defense movements while attaining physical fitness. An excellent method of physcial fitness and cardio.

While those who don't know a multitude will argue that more is NOT better, as it is impossible for one to master more than a few.... I would disagree....Stances, Punches, Kicks, etc. are done the same whether in the street or dojo..one kata or another.. More kata offer more diverse study for individuals with the ability to learn, retain, and yes master the movements.... Of course there is the complete "under the surface" multitude of henka waza, bunkai oyo, etc. "some go deep, some go wide" Most will argue; "To truly understand a kata one must do more than scratch the surface." I agree, but I think we sell our selves short to believe that it takes "a lifetime of study" to master a few kata.....It takes a lifetime to master a few, if a few is all you know..... We humans are capable of so much more.... I practice more kata than most karate-kas....that is because my Sensei taught me more than a few....this was not a request, it was a requirement. I have been told by more than one that "Quality is better than quantity" and I agree...... I just believe that it is possible to have both! Quality OF Quantity! and visaversa! Its in the practice methods, and amount of time on the floor.

Incidentially..... this was usually said after looking at my systems kata list...... Not one of them refused to learn a new kata when given the chance.... and why not, If you have been practicing the same kata list for many years, wouldn't it be nice,refreshing and invigorating to learn something new that is authentic?

Lets quit saying it TAKES a lifetime to master..... those of us who have practiced more than half our lives and continue to do so, do it for one reason, NOT MASTERY, we practice because we love what we do... nothing more, nothing less...... those who didn't fall in love with Kata, quit long ago or will shortly.,....

Is more better? NO its not better, however, it is invigorating,challenging, and a lot of fun!



I have studied Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu for over 30 years. There are 18 Kata in the system. Once I have learned all that I can from them perhaps I will look for more. I suspect I will never go looking.
I'm not sure number is as important as learning to learn from them.

[Victor Smith]

Is more Kata better, sure it is, it of course depending on one's needs.

I've known good Isshinryu practitioners who had no interest in doing more than Isshinryu's 8 empty hand forms and never tried the 6 weapons kata.

I've trained with instructors who've trained in 400-500 Chinese forms. In fact in the 80 or so empty hand forms in Faan Tzi Ying jow Pai (Norhtern Eagle Claw) one form Lin Kuen has 50 rows of techniques and may well be more complex than the entire body of Okinawan karate. As I understand it though the Northern Chinese arts build on each other and as you move into the more advancing forms you discontinue the earlier ones. You have to perform their basics correctly from the earlier sets in the advanced ones, so you spend your focus on advancing all the time.

With the exception of choosing to train in Isshinryu, and likewise choosing to study Yang Tai Chi Chaun and other Chinese forms to become a more knowledgable judge, I've never sought to study forms with anyone else. On the other hand it was explained to me if you are a black belt you don't say I can't, and training many places with many friends I've probably studied close to 200 kata, kuen, hung, sets and forms, and practiced most of them for several decades before I made senior choices.

I never tried to teach what was shared with me to my students, simply because it was outside of their need. I choose to visit those dojo and in turn trained, and if that meant learning another form so be it, I had no right to say no, I was a guest.

Of course many of them were variations of forms, Variations of Seisan, Chinto, Bassai dai and so forth. That made it sometime easier.

I never trained with anyone, ever who worried about mastering anything. Kata or tools, not endings. Your body keeps changing, inreasing its potential, your knowledge moves forward, you age, slow, learn new tactical doctrines....

I once remarked to the instructor who studied many hundreds of forms that I can't do it all, I was doing too much. His reply, it's not what you retain, it's what you experience that is important. If you have the opportunity and follow it, you gain deeper understanding of what others are doing. That is the key.

Those who can do, that's just it, nothing more.

I do understand great performance, the mastery term can be used, but it doesn't last. That great performance is a result of decades of movement, forwards, backwards, sideways, and when you see it, you have no idea what would be the answer 10 years later either.

It's neither the kata or the bunkai which is the answer, imo.

The goal is to have the knowledge and unerstanding how to tactiacally set up an attacker so your technique moves through them, interrupting their wa.

the pleasant pefection.

[Mrluckyman]

Probably a combination of two or more styles. For example, someone who has studied Shito Ryu and Shotokan Karate could certainly have that number of empty hand kata. There could easily be significant overlap, though, since both systems have a lot of similar kata (Enpi, Bassai Dai / Sho, Gankaku, Gojushiho Sho / Dai, Jion, Naihanchi / Tekki, etc).
actually there are no overlaping kata in our syllabas... I learned one with each name...i.e. I call them Heian so I don't list Pinan and Heian only Heian.... I have no doubt some of these kata are from different ancient sensei, all kata on our list are from before WWII.... We don't do "modern" kata, not even for Shiai.... learned them or at least 90% from Soke Joe Ruiz..... checked the kata movements with Yamazaki Sensei in 1998 and He said they were legit, but that almost nobody does some of them anymore....and Yes I practice Shito-Ryu.... which does appear to have 36 traditional kata from combining Naha-te and Shuri-Te.... Some kata i.e. Sansu (82 moves), Kumote (spider hands obviously Chinese), we have 5 bassai (Dai, Sho, Ni, San, Tomori) Long and very advanced....seem to be indigenous and can be traced back to Kiyoshi Aihara (Hawaii) and Kanki Izumagawa (Japan) two early modern martial art meijins.....interestingly I have been looking for similar kata from other systems/styles and have been unsuccessful thus far.....weapons came mostly from "Koga-Ryu"... I have only one other source of a "Koga" encounter..... It seems, Kiyoshi Yamazaki, Sensei had occasion for a "Koga Ninja Clansman" to visit his dojo.....to prove his authenticity, the Kogaman told Yamazaki, Sensei the distance from the front door of his dojo to his office within 1/4 of an inch... He told me the Kogaman measured by dragging his finger along the wall as they walked to the office.... Yamazaki Sensei was impressed. After he measured the distance himself.....so it appears to be legit...I know, from watching and having them used on me, they work, they are awsome to view, even more awsome to practice. bunkai is incredible!!!!

[Brandon Fisher]

I teach a total of 23 empty hand kata up to 5th Dan and I feel that really is a lot when its not just the steps / movements. There are so many waza in those kata that I am very content with them. I am not working on expanding my kobudo background as well.

[Grenadier]

actually there are no overlaping kata in our syllabas... I learned one with each name...i.e. I call them Heian so I don't list Pinan and Heian only Heian.... I have no doubt some of these kata are from different ancient sensei, all kata on our list are from before WWII....


Now that's impressive, indeed!

Glad to have you aboard this forum, and I look forward to hearing about your experiences!

[Dan Anderson]

I have a poblem with Abernathy's theoris he sells. His mind is so open that his brain fell out. Kata does not translate to modern mma fighting. Kata techniques are for quickly and efficiently ending an attack. They are not for sprawling,mounting,and doing an armbar.

The fact is, he is making money from his theories. It's only a matter of time before more theories emerge.
Brian,

Not necessarily so. Kata can translate to mma fighting although that was not the initial use, especially against a sword wielding opponent. If one slips in the heat of things and does go to the ground, the sprawling, mounting and armbars become useful. Seeing as how ancient kata came from an area that lacked pavement for firm footing, I have a hard time with the possibility of there never being the contingency of going to the ground in the kata somewhere.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[hogstooth]

His articles about karate on the ground and his interpretations of kata are just take offs of mma.

Karate does not encompass all ranges and some people just can't grasp that. They wish to somehow legitimize karate by spreading that it covers everything when in fact it does not.

I do not dispute your interpretation on this individual. You have your right to your opinion. But let me ask you this. Can you say for sure what the original intent of the hidden meanings of your kata are?
How can you? Who can say what they really meant? The founders taught their art to their family and it may be several generations in some arts before it was taught to the public or outsiders. Then they are absorbed into different arts and passed down again. By the time it gets to us who knows what the original intent was.
It is human nature to put a spin on everything we do. To adapt it to our needs and our understanding of how it best suits us as individuals.
I wonder what the original intent was when the founders learned a form in china and brought it back and reformulated it into what we know today as Karate? But is Karate today what the founders actually practiced? Are the Kata today the Kata that the founders invented and are the interpretations of the hidden techniques the same that they intended them to be?
I don't think they are. Humans have a way of evolving to things that impact them.
I understand your point and I think that he is trying to shift Karate to mma to prove that it is still viable but if even one of his
interpretations has worth doesn't it warrant consideration? After all we are all just guessing as to the original intent of the founder unless the founder is still alive. who knows he may be closer than the rest of us. I pray not but you will never know unless you can talk to the dead of course bn.
Just food for though. God Bless.

[Brother John]

When I studied Karate under my sensei the standard was...

Learn the 1st kata well, not perfect, but consistently correct and continually improving...
then learn the next and begin the same process until you were again consistently correct and continually improving...
...and then learn the 3rd until such time as you were consistently correct and continually improving...

then the 4th...
5th
-
100th....

Quantity? A matter of time.
Quality? A matter of tireless dedication to excellence through details!!

BOTH are good, both together.........
a LIFETIME of good Budo!

Your Brother
John

[twendkata71]

Excellent post. My thougts exactly.





When I studied Karate under my sensei the standard was...

Learn the 1st kata well, not perfect, but consistently correct and continually improving...
then learn the next and begin the same process until you were again consistently correct and continually improving...
...and then learn the 3rd until such time as you were consistently correct and continually improving...

then the 4th...
5th
-
100th....

Quantity? A matter of time.
Quality? A matter of tireless dedication to excellence through details!!

BOTH are good, both together.........
a LIFETIME of good Budo!

Your Brother
John

[exile]

I might not be up to date on Abernathy`s latest work but is this not exactly what he is saying too?

Yup. Check out his Karate's Grappling Methods, and you will read the following:


Grappling is to be avoided if at all possible. This is especially true of ground fighting. Your aim when you go to the ground is to regain your feet as quickly as possible; it is not your aim to use all kinds of locks and holds... the more time you spend on the floor, the more time your attacker's friends and accomplices will have to kick and punch you.

...In all honesty, if you go to the ground alone, either on your own or with your opponent, your chances of getting up are not good...you must do everything you can to get to your feet as quickly as possible.

(p. 19)

Repeatedly, in his books and DVDs, Abernethy sounds this note: he shows the depth of grappling applications within the kata—applications stressed by Gichin Funakoshi and Choki Motobu, among others—but emphases that on the ground, you can use some of the same vertical moves encoded in the kata to control your opponent enough to let you get to your feet first and dispatch them with linear striking techniques.

So it's very strange to read the following:



His articles about karate on the ground and his interpretations of kata are just take offs of mma.

MMA, which for the past decade was dominated by fighters whose purpose was to go to ground and win there?? Whose poster children are the Gracies? With Abernethy telling us in book after book just what he says above: to hell with the ground, get upright as soon as possible, and here's how to do it??


Karate does not encompass all ranges and some people just can't grasp that. They wish to somehow legitimize karate by spreading that it covers everything when in fact it does not.

Here's Abernethy telling us to avoid the ground at all costs, that you may find yourself there, in which case you need to know how to get up from it, and there are extensions of karate's vertical techs which will help you do that; and now we're apparently being told that Abernethy is trying to 'legitimize karate' by claiming its techniques are extendable to something like the ground game, as in MMA.

Let me just suggest that if people want to understand what Abernethy is really saying about karate and the ground range, they read what he says, rather than relying on a summary which gets what he says inside out and backward, and in a pointlessly nasty way to boot. Abernethy's mind is so open that his brains have fallen out? Really... :rolleyes:

[seasoned]

Show me another move, the famous words of many a new student. Show me my next kata so I can take my next test is a song heard so very often in many a DoJo. “Is more better?” Give me one hundred students and we may come up with but a few warriors. Kata teaches us so much more then just moves. As some of us know, kata is the foundation that all of our Martial arts comes from. Kata is a solo proving ground where we delve deep into our mind and we are able to function beyond any rules that can bind us. Kata is where we can unleash that animal part of us that most people outside of Martial arts will never experience. In Kata we are able to take our opponent to the death, I look at it as a way of bringing out our violent nature, but at the same time with a sense of control over anger which is truly our enemy. Kata is where you can truly meet our opponent on the battle field and win decisively, to the death. If this is where your Kata is bringing you, then if you want 100 of them, so be it. “Is more better” This is a personal choese. When shooting a gun there is but one way to kill with it, point and fire. Law enforcement and the Military are able to spark that part of a persons mind that is able to function under life and death situations. They are touching something deep within the minds of their people similar to what Kata can do for us, and that is a sense of realism. We need to ask ourself what is Kata to me, and where is my training taking me.

[hungfistron]

Is more better??


No.

[shihansmurf]

I used to be a fan of training a large number of kata. I had the idea that if I had a large body of knowledge that it ment I was a better martial artist. When I was exploring American Kenpo and a bit of Tracy kenpo I got it in my head that the more techniques(which are very much like miniture kata, although mostly performed with partners) I knew, the better of a fighter I would be.

Then I discovered boxing and JKD concepts.

Armed with a limited arsenal and filtered through a training program that vastly improved my strength, speed, and endurance, my skills as a martial artist grew by leaps and bounds.

For me, the object lesson was clear. I learn better with a teaching model that stresses fewer skills to internalize, that I can then polish to a higher level of proficiency. I personally would rather spend my training time developing functional attributes like power, agility, speed, flexibility, timing, and such, I just don't utilize kata, or a plethora of techniques, as the pirmary means of doing so. I use weight training, running, eliptical(although I am starting to think that there is a demon trapped in each of those machines), shadow boxing, heavy bag traing, sparring, lots of drilling(kihon), and finally kata(with special emphasis on bunkai) to accomplish those training goals.

On a consistant basis I train and teach as my white through shodan program the following kata.
Taikyokyu
Heian 1-5
Tekki 1-3 ( I prefer to teach them really as one large kata but I break them up into the three segments through the brown belt program)
Bassai
Kanku Dai
After that I work the following as appropriate, when the mood strikes me or when a students is ready to learn one for grading.
Jion
Empi
Gojushiho
meikyo
chinte
unsu

I just don't really train the rest. When I get around to grading next year I guess I'll brush up, but untill then I focus on the ones that provide a solid work out for me and the material the my students are currently working on.

All of the above only applies to me and how I think. A huge number of other martial artist have had tremendous results with the traditional methods of learding and internalizing dozens if kata and a coupel of hundred techniques. In the process of doing so they develop functional strength, speed , agility, co-ordination (infact, there are two sets in EPAK calles Coordination Sets One and Two respectively) and endurance. They learn timing, good form, motion economics, and solid footwork. In short, it is as valid and effective of a teaching model as the small number of kata method that I espouse.

The key is matching up the student to the correct method. No one way will work for all students.

Mark