History of Tracy's kenpo; Told by Jim Tracy

http://www.thetracyfamilyhistory.net/Chapter__80%20About%20the%20Author.htm

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

wow, accusing a dead man (parker) of stealing cash from celebs...
thats CLASS

FC,
I like you,and I know you are a Tracy BB
So, out of respect to you, i wont post what i as gonna

keep in mind, this is Jim Tracy, not Will Tracy. I'm part way thru it, find it interesting. I don't think he's said anything derogatory about Mr. Parker as far as I have gotten so far, i'm maybe 1/3 of the way thru it.

as far as whether or not Mr. Parker swiped the tips off the tables, i seem to recall hearing that elsewhere as well, but I don't remember where.

I don't think it was an attempt by Jim to make Parker look bad. I think he is just telling events as he remembers them, and he is illustrating how financially desperate those times were for Mr. Parker. It was a tough time, and a difficult business field that they were trying to get going. It really doesn't surprise me to hear things like this, and I don't say that at all in an accusatory way. Difficult times often lead people to make difficult decisions and sometimes do things they wouldn't otherwise do if they weren't approaching a point of desperation.

It's an interesting read. The thing that I find really interesting, as well as sad, is that it seems there is a long and strong history of mental illness in the family. That must have been very difficult to cope with, particularly in those times when treatment for mental illness was very rudimentary and often not available.

"Ed did lunch a lot with the stars. He never paid. Because of their status, they always tipped big. No coins, always bills were left on the table. Parker made sure that he was always the last to leave… then he would reach back and steal the tip. That is how the karate industry in America was originally funded."

Parker funded the Karate "industry" by stealing?

"Parker was intimidated by no one and ate like he was at a Hawaiian luau."

ROFLMAO!!


" I sat directly across from the daughter, Maria. She was an attractive blond college student two-years older than me, (seven pounds overweight)."

Seven pounds over weight? Jeez, he's a bit critical given how Al turned out weight wise eh?

"I have come to the conclusion that social dining is a woman’s thing."

Because he can't figure out which fork to use?


"Jimmy Wu teaches traditional Kung Fu to the first class of Caucasians in an American karate school. He is not teaching beginning students, but the best Parker ever produced. We did not have to put up with the traditional ten years of learning nothing. Three years studying under Parker put us all on the fast track. When Jimmy Wu took over the class, he was working with students who already had the equivalent of fifteen to twenty years of Kung Fu training."

Modesty anyone?

" Here is what I did: I contacted several yellow page companies in major cities by calling them collect. So far it cost us nothing. I had them send me their current yellow pages for free, which as a public utility they were obliged to do. It still cost us nothing. I looked at each city’s yellow pages to confirm that there was little, if any, karate school competitors. If there was too much competition I simply went on to another city. America was a big country and it was foolish to go head-to-head with good competitors when there were so many cities wide open. I then placed an ad in certain select city yellow pages. These were usually small display ads as it was foolish to place a large, expensive, display ad in a yellow pages when we were the only ad. The yellow page ad had to be connected to a phone number, also established for free. The phone number and yellow page ad did not start billing until the yellow pages came out. So far everything was free. It just took a lot of planning and time consuming work. The day the yellow pages came out I had the phone number disconnected. This automatically stopped the billing for both the phone number and yellow page ad. I now have yellow page ads in several major American cities...for free. "

"We now have one little problem. We have thousands of franchise pages printed but no way to collate them, put them in order. One of our instructors had a job working in the local government’s printing shop. And...he has a key to the shop! The instructor and I sneak into the shop in the middle of the night and use the government collating machine. It is a big job taking up most of two nights..
I tell you this story because I believe in being honest in writing this story. Also, I am telling you this story because the statute of limitations has run out.
We purchase a hardback book binder, which again was expensive. It continued to be expensive because in addition to the binding machine we had to keep on buying the custom printed book covers and binding materials.
We finally have our franchises ready to sign."

These quotes are something else! At least Jim Tracy admits the sleazy business practices and crimes that they used to get their business off the ground.

keep in mind, this is Jim Tracy, not Will Tracy. I'm part way thru it, find it interesting. I don't think he's said anything derogatory about Mr. Parker as far as I have gotten so far, i'm maybe 1/3 of the way thru it.

as far as whether or not Mr. Parker swiped the tips off the tables, i seem to recall hearing that elsewhere as well, but I don't remember where.

I don't think it was an attempt by Jim to make Parker look bad. I think he is just telling events as he remembers them, and he is illustrating how financially desperate those times were for Mr. Parker. It was a tough time, and a difficult business field that they were trying to get going. It really doesn't surprise me to hear things like this, and I don't say that at all in an accusatory way. Difficult times often lead people to make difficult decisions and sometimes do things they wouldn't otherwise do if they weren't approaching a point of desperation.

It's an interesting read. The thing that I find really interesting, as well as sad, is that it seems there is a long and strong history of mental illness in the family. That must have been very difficult to cope with, particularly in those times when treatment for mental illness was very rudimentary and often not available.


I read it pretty much as you did. Of course, it all depends on your background/perspective as to whether or not it is offensive. It was a different time. Laws that are now commonplace, were not on the books then. (For example,consider the current criminal laws against steroids. They were nonexistent at the time.) Civil matters that involve businesses are even more complex to figure out.

What about the reader's background/experience? Can he or she identify with things.

When I was a young man I hitchiked around and had very little money. Sometimes I would enter a diner and order a cup of coffee. After the people at the next table or chair would leave, I would simply reach across, take the leftovers, and was well content to eat what had been left. If I had had a wife and children maybe I would have taken some tips.

Jim

Dress it up however you want to, Jim Tracy just called Ed Parker a thief.

his instructor, and he called him a thief.

Even IF my instructor was a thief, i wouldnt call him one in public

I understand it all very well and am not offended or bothered by the read. I have met Al Tracy, at one of his seminars in Whicita Tx., I was a member of the United Kenpo Assoc. under J. T. Will, and I once had a chance meeting with Tom Conner here in San Antonio, Tx, he brought Dick Raney here to run a franchise, according to him. After having met Mr. Conner even though the visit was about 40 min.s I could see him doing the things that were said of him. I believe Tracys are honest, but I am just another reader. I cant myself see Mr. Parker doing what was said, but I once saw a good man steal food right out of a grocery store. Who can really say what they would do under any given circumstances?

I understand it all very well and am not offended or bothered by the read. I have met Al Tracy, at one of his seminars in Whicita Tx., I was a member of the United Kenpo Assoc. under J. T. Will, and I once had a chance meeting with Tom Conner here in San Antonio, Tx, he brought Dick Raney here to run a franchise, according to him. After having met Mr. Conner even though the visit was about 40 min.s I could see him doing the things that were said of him. I believe Tracys are honest, but I am just another reader. I cant myself see Mr. Parker doing what was said, but I once saw a good man steal food right out of a grocery store. Who can really say what they would do under any given circumstances?

Me. I, like most people, can see someone stealing to survive, i.e., to prevent starvation or to get life saving medicene etc., but to keep a Karate school open when he could have just got a job instead?

Clearly, Jim Tracy (I won't presume to say that he speaks for his brothers) has little problem with fraud (The Yellow Pages scam) or misappropriation of government equipment, since the only reluctance he seems to have with talking about such things is the statute of limmitations. Heck, he seems proud of how clever they were to come up with those schemes.

But I would think that one should have more clear evidence of a crime before accusing someone of it (even though you can't libel the dead legally). It seems like a cheap shot to tell that story about someone else if they aren't around to dispute it.

Don't even get me started on the "7 pounds overweight thing" :)

I my self know much of the histroy of martial arts here in San Antonio, Tx. I wouldn't tell of all things negitive, but I have known of an instructor here to change his name more than 5 different times, and he was/is a child sex offender, he no longer teaches. Others used to accuse each other of stealing students, and "pencil whipping" the books, these are just a few things. What really gets me upset is the stealing of material/knowledge from another teacher to be able to teach something new or advanced to thier own students. Its funny when you are the only one around with certain knowledge like some tradional bo kata from a particular style, and then you find out you were on someones camera being video taped. Yes there are things I know about but for the sake of the martial arts business, I wouldn't say much about them. I know to steer clear of certian individuals who would practice bad methods of conducting business. Most of the teachers here are OK, there are many new ones trying hard to make it, I wish them luck. It is a hard business to be in, we sell something the buyer cannot see, feel, taste, or here, at least in the beginning.

Dress it up however you want to, Jim Tracy just called Ed Parker a thief.

his instructor, and he called him a thief.

Even IF my instructor was a thief, i wouldnt call him one in public


Well, give him a call then and take it up with him if you really feel this way. If you are really offended by it, then go to the source and set the record straight, if you have information to the contrary.

I don't believe he was calling him a thief. I believe he was just illustrating how desperate the times were. I didnt' get the impression that Jim was casting judgement over it either. He was just relating what happened.

Me. I, like most people, can see someone stealing to survive, i.e., to prevent starvation or to get life saving medicene etc., but to keep a Karate school open when he could have just got a job instead?


seems to me it was sort of the same thing. Sure, Jim mentioned that this is how Kenpo was "funded" at that time. I think what he really meant was, this was how Mr. Parker was forced to survive, while trying to work on being successful with kenpo. That's how I read it anyway, given the full context of what was said.


Clearly, Jim Tracy (I won't presume to say that he speaks for his brothers) has little problem with fraud (The Yellow Pages scam) or misappropriation of government equipment, since the only reluctance he seems to have with talking about such things is the statute of limmitations. Heck, he seems proud of how clever they were to come up with those schemes.


well, these were hardly high crimes and treason worthy of the gallows. A bit sneaky? yup. Does it tarnish their image? Maybe. I guess it depends on your perspective. Personally, it doesn't really bother me much, but then again, I myself have used my employers copy machine to photocopy personal things from time to time. I simply find it an interesting account of the history of how things developed in Tracy kenpo.


But I would think that one should have more clear evidence of a crime before accusing someone of it (even though you can't libel the dead legally). It seems like a cheap shot to tell that story about someone else if they aren't around to dispute it.


He knew Mr. Parker pretty well and was in frequent close contact during this time. I suspect he was in a position to know what was happening.

If you want to really dispute it, give him a call and see if you can set the record straight with him. If you have evidence to dispute what Jim stated, then bring it forth and see what Jim has to say about it. Get him to retract his statements on the matter. If you are really upset about it, then see if you can get something done about it. Let us know how that turns out for you.


Don't even get me started on the "7 pounds overweight thing" :)

You've mentioned this twice now. Does it strike close to home for some reason?

Was it an odd thing to say? Maybe. I'm not sure it's worth starting a crusade over.

I don't understand why you feel you need to be Mr. Parker's Champion (which I doubt Mr. Parker needs), and I don't understand why you feel such a strong need to take issue with what Jim Tracy has to say. I just don't get where you are coming from.

how about because it is extreemly disrespectfull to talk smack about your instructor?

how about it is extrremly disrespectfull to talk smack about the dead?

How about because for 18 years now all the tracy's have done is talk smack?

how about because no one cares how many fancy cars they had in the 60's?

How about because they BRAG about turning out half trained black belts to run those chain schools?

How about because we have THEM to thank for the McDojo's now?

I could go on and on and on.

FC,
please dont get me wrong. I have a LOT of respect for the STYLE you practice. Seriously, I think the Tracy system of kenpo is very good, very complete, and well rounded. The FEW tracy BB's I have seen all seemed to know thier stuff. I have no doubt you do as well.

Whatever thier skills in Kenpo, the actions of Al and Jim are IMO highly disrespectfull of thier instructor, without whom they would be unknown, and thier art, without which they would be unknown.

FC, please believe me, I am not trying to insult YOU, or your style. If you studied directly under one of the tracy brothers, then I apologize for bad mouthing your instructor.

how about because it is extreemly disrespectfull to talk smack about your instructor?

how about it is extrremly disrespectfull to talk smack about the dead?

How about because for 18 years now all the tracy's have done is talk smack?


well, he's just telling the history the way he remembers it. Keep in mind, this history is a small part of a much larger family history that he has written, most of which has nothing to do with kenpo. This is just the section about he and his brothers, and their involvement in kenpo. Yes, he did post it on the internet, yet he has hardly run around trying to attract attention to it. It actually looks to me like it is posted for his family and friends to read. I was completely unaware of it until Mr. Bishop posted the link. I simply find it interesting to read about their experiences. I am probably 3/4 of the way thru it, and honestly, I don't see anything yet that I would say was disrespectful of Mr. Parker, at least not intentionally. It seems that some people are taking issue with WHAT is being said, but it reads to me like Jim is not deliberately trying to talk smack about MR. Parker. He is just telling the history the way he remembers it. Nothing about what he has said about MR. Parker was done in a derogatory or accusatory way. And he has said some very flattering things about Mr. Parker's skills and how he taught them at that time.


how about because no one cares how many fancy cars they had in the 60's?


neither do I. I don't care about the fancy cars. I don't care that they DID own them, and I would not care if the HADN'T owned them. It's just part of the history and what they were doing at the time. Again, just an interesting story.


How about because they BRAG about turning out half trained black belts to run those chain schools?

How about because we have THEM to thank for the McDojo's now?


according to our very own DOC Ron Chapel, Mr. Parker actually was working on setting up a chain of schools, and he actually embraced the term "McDojo", including its McDonalds implication. It seems that Mr. Parker felt it made good business sense, and this is what he was trying to accomplish.

We do not have the Tracys to thank for McDojos. That responsibility is shared by many people throughout the martial arts, in many styles, including kenpo, but also including virtually all other styles taught in the United States.

As far as half-trained black belts go, I don't know, I wasnt' there. I suppose some were better than others, and Jim alludes to certain schools that were not doing well. That may or may not have been due to instructors with inferior skills. But I do know that they also trained a lot of very skilled and capable martial artists, many of whom are now teachers.

Did every student Mr. Parker trained turn out to be a stellar martial artist and teacher? How many of the less-than-impressive ones are also wearing black belts with a lot of red tips?


FC,
please dont get me wrong. I have a LOT of respect for the STYLE you practice. Seriously, I think the Tracy system of kenpo is very good, very complete, and well rounded. The FEW tracy BB's I have seen all seemed to know thier stuff. I have no doubt you do as well.


I appreciate that, and I also do my best. How well do I personally stack up against the rest of the world? I dunno, really. That's between myself and my instructor, I guess, and I don't lose sleep over it one way or the other.


Whatever thier skills in Kenpo, the actions of Al and Jim are IMO highly disrespectfull of thier instructor, without whom they would be unknown, and thier art, without which they would be unknown.


I just do not see the disrespect in what Jim has said. In my opinion, it is just not there. It's a history from Jim's point of view. COuld he be mistaken about some things, perhaps remembers things incorrectly, or misunderstood something that he saw 40 years ago? Sure, that's possible. But it's his version of the history, and nobody should take it as anything other than that. Nobody said, "Hey, here's Jim Tracy's story, this is the gold-bound indesputable unbiased truth". Nobody has said that, and you don't need to take it as such. It's just another point of view, and I would point out that compared to many things that Will Tracy has said, Jim's story is very very reasonable and cordial with regards to Mr. Parker.


FC, please believe me, I am not trying to insult YOU, or your style. If you studied directly under one of the tracy brothers, then I apologize for bad mouthing your instructor.

I am not a direct student of the Tracys, but my instructor was a direct student of both Jim and Al Tracy, beginning in about 1963. He was actually there when a lot of things were happening, this was at a time when the Tracys were still part of Mr. Parker's organization, as he says: "we were still all one big happy family" at that time. He actually learned the Two-Man set from Mr. Parker directly, when Mr. Parker was visiting the Tracy's school in San Jose. He witnessed the split, and a lot of what went on during that time. So he is in a position to know, as well.

I don't even see this topic as having anything to do with the whole split issue, and I don't want to steer the discussion in that direction. As I keep saying, it's just Jim's story, read it for what it's worth, or not. I don't see anything to fight about in what Jim says.

FC,
thank you for being reasonable. I appreciate your opinion and viewpoint

FC,
thank you for being reasonable. I appreciate your opinion and viewpoint

You are welcome, and thank you too.

If you want to really dispute it, give him a call and see if you can set the record straight with him. If you have evidence to dispute what Jim stated, then bring it forth and see what Jim has to say about it. Get him to retract his statements on the matter. If you are really upset about it, then see if you can get something done about it. Let us know how that turns out for you.


I have no need to dispute it per se. I think it was a cheap shot at Parker to say it. If it's true, then why mention it? Seems like muckraking to bring it up at this point. a way to tarnish his image long after he was around to defend himself against the charges.


You've mentioned this twice now. Does it strike close to home for some reason?

Was it an odd thing to say? Maybe. I'm not sure it's worth starting a crusade over.

It goes to Jim's state of mind and what he obsesses on. How does he know that she was exactly "7" pounds over weight? What was the relevance of this statement? If you notice the smiley face after my statement, you would know that i have no intention of starting a crusade over it. It just makes him seem odd which goes to how reliable he is about the rest of what he says IMO.


I don't understand why you feel you need to be Mr. Parker's Champion (which I doubt Mr. Parker needs), and I don't understand why you feel such a strong need to take issue with what Jim Tracy has to say. I just don't get where you are coming from.

I dislike it when people try to promote their own image by tearing down someone else's. That's how this reads to me.

I have no need to dispute it per se. I think it was a cheap shot at Parker to say it. If it's true, then why mention it? Seems like muckraking to bring it up at this point. a way to tarnish his image long after he was around to defend himself against the charges.


I think you have a very simplistic way of looking at things.


I dislike it when people try to promote their own image by tearing down someone else's. That's how this reads to me.

I don't buy this explanation. In the time you have posted here on Martialtalk, I've definitely noticed a trend wherein you target a certain group or individual, and you like to go after them. For some reason, you seem to have a vendetta against the Tracys, among others.

I don't know why that is, because from what you have posted on your background, you don't seem to be in either a Parker lineage or a Tracy lineage. So I don't understand why you are so eager to nit-pick and manufacture offense where none existed, any time the Tracys come up in discussion, or when they have written something.

So what's the deal? Why all the animosity towards the Tracys? What's your personal involvement, and why the axe to grind?

I think you have a very simplistic way of looking at things.



I don't buy this explanation. In the time you have posted here on Martialtalk, I've definitely noticed a trend wherein you target a certain group or individual, and you like to go after them. For some reason, you seem to have a vendetta against the Tracys, among others.

I don't know why that is, because from what you have posted on your background, you don't seem to be in either a Parker lineage or a Tracy lineage. So I don't understand why you are so eager to nit-pick and manufacture offense where none existed, any time the Tracys come up in discussion, or when they have written something.

So what's the deal? Why all the animosity towards the Tracys? What's your personal involvement, and why the axe to grind?

Well, sorry you feel that way. You seem overly sensitive regarding YOUR defense of Jim Tracy. Why do you feel the need to defend him when he put his story up for all to read? Let the man's words speak for themselves and don't jump on those of us that have issues with the things that he says. He didn't have to write them and make them public, but having done so, they are up for criticism.

When you uncritically defend his writing, you sound like a Koolaid drinker rather than a student who studies a particular style. I think you're smarter than that.

Well, sorry you feel that way. You seem overly sensitive regarding YOUR defense of Jim Tracy. Why do you feel the need to defend him when he put his story up for all to read? Let the man's words speak for themselves and don't jump on those of us that have issues with the things that he says. He didn't have to write them and make them public, but having done so, they are up for criticism.

When you uncritically defend his writing, you sound like a Koolaid drinker rather than a student who studies a particular style. I think you're smarter than that.


I'll ask again: what's your axe to grind against the Tracys?

I'll ask again: what's your axe to grind against the Tracys?

Nothing against, or for, the Tracys per se. Just some of what they write. Especially when they bash on others needlessly.

Nothing against, or for, the Tracys per se. Just some of what they write. Especially when they bash on others needlessly.

well you may not realize it, but at times the way you post here really looks like you have a vendetta. Whether you intend that or not, that is the impression that at least I get. I'd like to bring that to your attention. It's up to you to decide if you want to adjust your style. But at least I've pointed it out.

I've stated it in various ways throughout this thread, and I'll say it once more: I don't believe Jim was deliberately bashing Mr. Parker in any way. In my opinion, having read almost the entire document (I do have a few pages to go yet) he was telling his story, and that included his observations of Mr. Parker as well. Given the full context of what he was writing, nothing he said about Mr. Parker was done in a disrespectful or accusatory or derogatory way. It is just the story as he remembers it.

My instructor was a direct student of Jim Tracy, starting in about 1963 or so. He has told me that Jim actually idolized Mr. Parker, really thought the world of him.

If you review his document, he never even mentions the Split that happened between them and Mr. Parker (unless he mentions it in the last few pages that I haven't read thru yet). He basically just says that they studied under Mr. Parker, then opened their own school, and studied with some kung fu unstructors, and started doing their own thing and running their business and opening their own schools. That's all he says about it. He doesn't talk about Mr. Parker's changes in the system, he doesn't cast judgement over that, he doesn't accuse Mr. Parker of watering down or destroying the system, he doesnt say anything about it at all. He just talks about what he and his brothers were doing at that time. This document is not about Mr. Parker. Mr. Parker is only in the document in his role as the Tracy's kenpo instructor. Nothing more is said about it. It really makes one wonder if the big nasty Split that everyone wants to argue about is a great big myth. My instructor has mentioned that it really was not as big and bad as most people like to believe, altho there were certainly some rough times between them. He even mentioned that Al and Ed had a cordial phone discussion just a couple weeks before Mr. Parker passed away.

This document is not about the split, and it's not a "Tracys vs. Parker" story that he tells. He can't avoid talking a little bit about Mr. Parker because of course Mr. Parker was a part of their lives. But this is not a war document.

If you can't see that, I don't know how to help you out. Agree to disagree if you like, but I think if you are finding things to argue about in this document, then you must be really looking hard for something to get upset about.

I think more is being made of this article. Sounds like they all did something, they may not be proud of today, to get their schools off the ground.

As with all the people we a place on a pedestal, we never want to see the dark side of things.

Parker and Tracy have given a lot to karate. I'd rather concentrate on that.

It's kind of interesting, when Jim talks about the growth of Tracy's, and the resistance of other martial arts schools to them, it sounds eerily similar to what's happened in the club soccer world here in Dallas the past 5 years. A person with a vision enters the market, and winds up overtaking all their competitors who are still doing things under the old model.

While the Tracy's were a major influence in the spread of and the teaching of the martial arts in America, whether or not the commercialization of the art was a positive thing is an open question.

FC is right about one thing, this essay, by JIM Tracy is nowhere near as critical of Ed Parker as anything Al Tracy writes. Read his stuff sometime and you will see LOTS of Parker bashing.

Al or Will? I've read what Will had to say about Tom Connor, Jim is much more even-handed in his portrayal.

well you may not realize it, but at times the way you post here really looks like you have a vendetta. Whether you intend that or not, that is the impression that at least I get. I'd like to bring that to your attention. It's up to you to decide if you want to adjust your style. But at least I've pointed it out.

I've stated it in various ways throughout this thread, and I'll say it once more: I don't believe Jim was deliberately bashing Mr. Parker in any way. In my opinion, having read almost the entire document (I do have a few pages to go yet) he was telling his story, and that included his observations of Mr. Parker as well. Given the full context of what he was writing, nothing he said about Mr. Parker was done in a disrespectful or accusatory or derogatory way. It is just the story as he remembers it.

My instructor was a direct student of Jim Tracy, starting in about 1963 or so. He has told me that Jim actually idolized Mr. Parker, really thought the world of him.

If you review his document, he never even mentions the Split that happened between them and Mr. Parker (unless he mentions it in the last few pages that I haven't read thru yet). He basically just says that they studied under Mr. Parker, then opened their own school, and studied with some kung fu unstructors, and started doing their own thing and running their business and opening their own schools. That's all he says about it. He doesn't talk about Mr. Parker's changes in the system, he doesn't cast judgement over that, he doesn't accuse Mr. Parker of watering down or destroying the system, he doesnt say anything about it at all. He just talks about what he and his brothers were doing at that time. This document is not about Mr. Parker. Mr. Parker is only in the document in his role as the Tracy's kenpo instructor. Nothing more is said about it. It really makes one wonder if the big nasty Split that everyone wants to argue about is a great big myth. My instructor has mentioned that it really was not as big and bad as most people like to believe, altho there were certainly some rough times between them. He even mentioned that Al and Ed had a cordial phone discussion just a couple weeks before Mr. Parker passed away.

This document is not about the split, and it's not a "Tracys vs. Parker" story that he tells. He can't avoid talking a little bit about Mr. Parker because of course Mr. Parker was a part of their lives. But this is not a war document.

If you can't see that, I don't know how to help you out. Agree to disagree if you like, but I think if you are finding things to argue about in this document, then you must be really looking hard for something to get upset about.

Well, he put that stuff in there and then posted it for all to read. It's still the English language and the stuff he says is pretty low. I'm sure that he could have painted Parker any way he wanted, but he had to talk about his "stealing" etc. He obviously knows what kind of impression that is going to give to those that read it. So I still think it's a cheap shot. Just because others have said worse things (Like his convicted felon brother Will), doesn't excuse this in my opinion. And even if it WAS Will that wrote the stuff on Al's site, Al is still the one that published it and gave it a home on the web.

I think their story could have been told without all of that.

Given the full context of what he was writing, nothing he said about Mr. Parker was done in a disrespectful or accusatory or derogatory way. It is just the story as he remembers it.


neither you nor Dan can be certain of his intention.

the real meaning of any communication is it's effect on the listener (or reader). The intent of the author is irrelevant.

neither you nor Dan can be certain of his intention.

the real meaning of any communication is it's effect on the listener (or reader). The intent of the author is irrelevant.

Yep. There are multidimensional forms of communication that transmit information differently to a reader and are dependant upon that reader's background/experience/perspective. Allusion, metaphors, and meter are some examples.

Anyone that uses allusion, for example, is "constantly risking absurdity" (yep, that is an allusion), when the reader only understands it in a one dimensional, logical, linear manner--sort of like testifying in court.
When one insists on that type of a reading, there can be little or no argument.

That's why people that write published articles/stories have the benefit of editors. They can clean up the parts that have too obscure of a meaning, etc.

My take on the woman who was "7 pounds"overweight": Either Jim Tracy is a champion weight guesser, or she made a big deal about being "7 pounds overweight" and it stuck with him through the years, or there is an inside story that was not presented. An editor could certainly have helped him present that little story with alittle more background. Anyway, I read it and, without instantly thinking him to be absurd, decided that there is alittle more to the story than was presented.

Jim

Yep. There are multidimensional forms of communication that transmit information differently to a reader and are dependant upon that reader's background/experience/perspective. Allusion, metaphors, and meter are some examples.

Anyone that uses allusion, for example, is "constantly risking absurdity" (yep, that is an allusion), when the reader only understands it in a one dimensional, logical, linear manner--sort of like testifying in court.
When one insists on that type of a reading, there can be little or no argument.

That's why people that write published articles/stories have the benefit of editors. They can clean up the parts that have too obscure of a meaning, etc.

My take on the woman who was "7 pounds"overweight": Either Jim Tracy is a champion weight guesser, or she made a big deal about being "7 pounds overweight" and it stuck with him through the years, or there is an inside story that was not presented. An editor could certainly have helped him present that little story with alittle more background. Anyway, I read it and, without instantly thinking him to be absurd, decided that there is alittle more to the story than was presented.

Jim

Thanks Jim, this is exactly what I've been trying to say here.

Well, he put that stuff in there and then posted it for all to read. It's still the English language and the stuff he says is pretty low. I'm sure that he could have painted Parker any way he wanted, but he had to talk about his "stealing" etc. He obviously knows what kind of impression that is going to give to those that read it. So I still think it's a cheap shot. Just because others have said worse things (Like his convicted felon brother Will), doesn't excuse this in my opinion. And even if it WAS Will that wrote the stuff on Al's site, Al is still the one that published it and gave it a home on the web.

I think their story could have been told without all of that.

well, agree to disagree then, I don't have a problem with respectful disagreement.

neither you nor Dan can be certain of his intention.


you are right, we don't know absolutely what he was thinking. I've never met him, and neither can I read his mind.


the real meaning of any communication is it's effect on the listener (or reader). The intent of the author is irrelevant.

well, yes and no. The effect on the listener/reader is an end result, but it may be a misunderstanding of what the author intended, and that is very relevant. That's how fights sometimes get started, that never should have.

I think part of the problem is that the Parker kenpo world has become sort of highly sensitive to anything the Tracys might say, largely due to Will's writings. Keep in mind: this document is Jim, not Will, and Will's writing is actually pretty irrelevant to the discussion. Jim does not address any of the issues that Will addressed, that got the kenpo world so upset. But because they are both Tracys, I think there is a tendency to jump to a quick judgement and read insult in things in which it doesn't actually exist and was never intended.

Jim's writing is a bit chaotic, and as Jim Hanna pointed out, a good editor could have cleaned that up a lot. Jim Tracy has been very open in his writing about the illnesses and difficulties, including mental illnesses, that he has suffered over the last number of years, and how it has affected him, including his ability to think straight. I give him a lot of credit for being so open about that. So I think that chaotic writing style needs to be kept in mind when reading this, and it ought to be recognized that perhaps not everything he says comes out the way he might have intended, and the true message he meant to deliver might get garbled. In reading Jim's work, I think you cannot take everything in a simplistic, one-dimensional and 100% literal way. Instead, you gotta be willing to look at the bigger story and recognize Jim's difficulty in writing, and realize the message behind the words may not be exactly what the words themselves say if you only read it on a simplistic level.

Again, this document is about the Tracys, not Ed Parker. Ed Parker's role in this story is very minor, he is not the focus of debate. Rather, he is just one of many powerful influences in the Tracys lives.

FC is right about one thing, this essay, by JIM Tracy is nowhere near as critical of Ed Parker as anything Al Tracy writes. Read his stuff sometime and you will see LOTS of Parker bashing.

Hmm. I'd like to see it. Could you put up a link to something Al Tracy has written about Ed Parker?

this document is about the Tracys, not Ed Parker. Ed Parker's role in this story is very minor, he is not the focus of debate. Rather, he is just one of many powerful influences in the Tracys lives.


and that is what Master Al tracy said to me, along time ago..

this document is about the Tracys, not Ed Parker. Ed Parker's role in this story is very minor, he is not the focus of debate. Rather, he is just one of many powerful influences in the Tracys lives.


and that is what Master Al tracy said to me, along time ago..

Well, it's about the Tracy's, that's true. But in the middle of the Tracy story, there's a cheap shot at Mr. Parker.

And even if Al Tracy hasn't written anything negative about Mr. Parker, he's hosted Brother Will's Parker-bashing stories on his site for years, which is giving tacit approval to them.

Well, it's about the Tracy's, that's true. But in the middle of the Tracy story, there's a cheap shot at Mr. Parker.

And even if Al Tracy hasn't written anything negative about Mr. Parker, he's hosted Brother Will's Parker-bashing stories on his site for years, which is giving tacit approval to them.


i know what you are talking about, and it's no big deal that there is no love loss between Tracy and myself, but i remember a story that Al Tracy was telling me about Mr Parker and it was not nice,but when you try to talk to him or Pat,it's like they don't care what you say (i know this for a fact it happen to me), but just wanted to add my 2 cents.:)

Well, it's about the Tracy's, that's true. But in the middle of the Tracy story, there's a cheap shot at Mr. Parker.


only if you insist upon looking at it in a simplistic and unsophisticated way.


And even if Al Tracy hasn't written anything negative about Mr. Parker, he's hosted Brother Will's Parker-bashing stories on his site for years, which is giving tacit approval to them.

He did for a while, but Will's writings have been gone from Al's website for years now. Give Al a call and straighten him out about it. Bitching about it here isn't going to change anything. If you object so strongly to it, go to the source and see if you can do something about it.

Starting to sound like your personal vendetta is coming to the surface again. What's your personal interest in it?

only if you insist upon looking at it in a simplistic and unsophisticated way.



He did for a while, but Will's writings have been gone from Al's website for years now. Give Al a call and straighten him out about it. Bitching about it here isn't going to change anything. If you object so strongly to it, go to the source and see if you can do something about it.

Starting to sound like your personal vendetta is coming to the surface again. What's your personal interest in it?

Seems like I started commenting on a published story, and you started in defending Jim Tracy like he was your dad. When someone puts a story out there for the public to read, commenting on it is fair game. It doesn't have to be "personal". And as to the "Vendetta" thing you keep mentioning, That would require them to have done something to me personally. They haven't. But are you going to tell me that you only comment on things that you have some personal stake in? Or are you free to make observations on things that are out there for public consumption?

It looks like the only reason that Al took those stories off of his site, is because Will put up his own and published them there instead. But they were up for a long time. Either way, Al must have agreed with the content for them to stay up there on his webpage for so long.

Well, it's about the Tracy's, that's true. But in the middle of the Tracy story, there's a cheap shot at Mr. Parker.

And even if Al Tracy hasn't written anything negative about Mr. Parker, he's hosted Brother Will's Parker-bashing stories on his site for years, which is giving tacit approval to them.

Actually, they were on the Tracy's site from 1997-1999, when Will was hosting the Tracy's site on his servers. Those articles have not been on the Tracy's site since Al Tracy began hosting it himself.

thats good at least

It looks like the only reason that Al took those stories off of his site, is because Will put up his own and published them there instead.

No, Al Tracy took them down in 1999, when he began hosting the Tracy's site instead of Will. They reappeared on Will's site about 3 years ago.

But they were up for a long time. Either way, Al must have agreed with the content for them to stay up there on his webpage for so long.

They were up for two years, 10 years ago, when the site was published and hosted by Will Tracy.

You are still trying to drag Al Tracy into your opinion of the things his brothers have written, as if there is some Tracy's agenda against Ed Parker. And since you don't have facts, you are making them up.

How exactly, Dan, are Will and Jim Tracy involved in the Tracy System of Kenpo? Seriously. Will Tracy hosted the Tracy's site starting in about 1995 as a favor to Al Tracy because Will owned the servers and had the expertise. When Al Tracy got to that point, he took it over. Will's writings reflect his memories of kenpo, Ed Parker, and his feelings on the state of American Kenpo today, not Al Tracy's feelings. I asked Al Tracy about 10 years ago what his brother Jim was doing, and he told me that Jim had not been involved in the martial arts for 20 years. 10 years ago.

Here's the deal...Al Tracy's stuff is on Al Tracy's website. Will Tracy's stuff is on Will Tracy's website. And guess where Jim Tracy's stuff is...Jim Tracy's website.

Is some of it controversial? You betcha. But stick to the facts.

you know what guys, a hundred years from now this will still be going on,:idunno: and you know something,all the talking and yelling and people saying this and that (myself also) will not change anything, why??? because it is what it is. btw i had a long conversation with this man about alot of tracy stuff http://a807.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/58/m_70b8dee2159cb96d1ef337f5dda8ee16.jpg Ray Arquilla, and me with some of his Black Belts @ the WCG, i'm sorry i can't seem to make it larger.

(http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=202730314&albumID=1133554&imageID=15312740)

No, Al Tracy took them down in 1999, when he began hosting the Tracy's site instead of Will. They reappeared on Will's site about 3 years ago.



They were up for two years, 10 years ago, when the site was published and hosted by Will Tracy.

You are still trying to drag Al Tracy into your opinion of the things his brothers have written, as if there is some Tracy's agenda against Ed Parker. And since you don't have facts, you are making them up.

How exactly, Dan, are Will and Jim Tracy involved in the Tracy System of Kenpo? Seriously. Will Tracy hosted the Tracy's site starting in about 1995 as a favor to Al Tracy because Will owned the servers and had the expertise. When Al Tracy got to that point, he took it over. Will's writings reflect his memories of kenpo, Ed Parker, and his feelings on the state of American Kenpo today, not Al Tracy's feelings. I asked Al Tracy about 10 years ago what his brother Jim was doing, and he told me that Jim had not been involved in the martial arts for 20 years. 10 years ago.

Here's the deal...Al Tracy's stuff is on Al Tracy's website. Will Tracy's stuff is on Will Tracy's website. And guess where Jim Tracy's stuff is...Jim Tracy's website.

Is some of it controversial? You betcha. But stick to the facts.

Well thanks for clearing that up. I guess since you always hear about "The Tracy Brothers" and their Kenpo system, and two of the three of them have negative things to say about Parker, it can get confusing. If Al Tracy never said anything negative about Parker publicly, and never hosted the negative articles on his website, then I appologize for making that statement.

Seems like I started commenting on a published story, and you started in defending Jim Tracy like he was your dad. When someone puts a story out there for the public to read, commenting on it is fair game. It doesn't have to be "personal".


no, I simply disagree with your interpretation of what was written. You keep stating your take on it, so I'll keep stating mine. I think you've made up your mind on the topic from the very beginning and you aren't willing to consider any other possibility. That's OK if you want to hold your position, but I'll keep contesting it when you speak up about it.


And as to the "Vendetta" thing you keep mentioning, That would require them to have done something to me personally. They haven't. But are you going to tell me that you only comment on things that you have some personal stake in? Or are you free to make observations on things that are out there for public consumption?


In my opinion, you seem to look for things to attack the Tracys on. This seems to go farther than simply commenting on something that was published. I keep trying to understand why this is. From what I know about your martial history, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, you aren't and have never been, in either a Parker lineage, or a Tracy lineage. So why do you take such an interest in this? Was Mr. Parker a personal friend of yours? It just doesn't make sense to me that you are so intensly interested in the politics of an art that you aren't a part of. That's what I am trying to understand, and that's why it looks to me like you, or someone you are connected to, must have some kind of personal vendetta. It's the only explanation I've been able to come up with, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I guess it all comes down to, "Have you met the Tracys?" "Have they personally done anything to wrong you? " Have you ever trained with them?

If you have, you may have the right to judge them. If you have not, do not base your opinion of them on an article.

Again, we have all said things that we may not be proud of or are taken out of context.

I guess it all comes down to, "Have you met the Tracys?" "Have they personally done anything to wrong you? " Have you ever trained with them?

If you have, you may have the right to judge them. If you have not, do not base your opinion of them on an article.

Again, we have all said things that we may not be proud of or are taken out of context.

Yeah, this was pretty much dropped over a week ago and resolved via PMs.

This argument is silly and does more to pull us apart than bring us together. The past is the past and I think a lot of fingers could be pointed at a lot of people over the years based upon “somebody doing someone wrong” but in the end analysis what difference does it make now? It would seem that all this comes down to is who gets to throw the last punch.

So who has or knows the true kenpo? Sorry to inform all of you but the answer is “none of us”. There is no “true kenpo” and never was. Kenpo is not something you can package and own. Chow knew this and though he tried to change it by creating American Kenpo so did Ed Parker. I have to think that deep down the Tracy’s know this too. Why? It is because when you teach someone something you cannot continue to own what they now know. You can pull their belt and tell the world of their misdeeds but you cannot take back their training.

Parker contributed a lot to what we now know, but so did the Tracy’s and for that matter many others. Kenpo is not just a fighting system it is also an evolutionary process tied to the defensive needs of the times. When things change so does kenpo. It has to or risk no longer being relevant.

So keep this fight going if you wish but know that your competition is using this to eat you alive. As for me, I wish to take the high road. I wish to build kenpo up not tear it down. We have so much we could learn from each other and we have such a wonderful platform from which to build on. Continue this silliness if you wish but when your schools are empty and your bank accounts are dry you might try and remember that you had a chance to really be a part of something that would contribute positively to the image of what we teach, but you chose to go down fighting your family and not the evil that our art was intended to counter.

Excellent post....

This argument is silly and does more to pull us apart than bring us together. The past is the past and I think a lot of fingers could be pointed at a lot of people over the years based upon “somebody doing someone wrong” but in the end analysis what difference does it make now? It would seem that all this comes down to is who gets to throw the last punch.

So who has or knows the true kenpo? Sorry to inform all of you but the answer is “none of us”. There is no “true kenpo” and never was. Kenpo is not something you can package and own. Chow knew this and though he tried to change it by creating American Kenpo so did Ed Parker. I have to think that deep down the Tracy’s know this too. Why? It is because when you teach someone something you cannot continue to own what they now know. You can pull their belt and tell the world of their misdeeds but you cannot take back their training.

Parker contributed a lot to what we now know, but so did the Tracy’s and for that matter many others. Kenpo is not just a fighting system it is also an evolutionary process tied to the defensive needs of the times. When things change so does kenpo. It has to or risk no longer being relevant.

So keep this fight going if you wish but know that your competition is using this to eat you alive. As for me, I wish to take the high road. I wish to build kenpo up not tear it down. We have so much we could learn from each other and we have such a wonderful platform from which to build on. Continue this silliness if you wish but when your schools are empty and your bank accounts are dry you might try and remember that you had a chance to really be a part of something that would contribute positively to the image of what we teach, but you chose to go down fighting your family and not the evil that our art was intended to counter.

I think you should have read the date on the previous post before saying "Continue this silliness" since the argument had been dropped.

Thank you for your reply. The subject may have been dropped but that does not mean that people have quit reading it. I have only added my 2 cents worth because I hear these types of discussions all the time and I just felt a need to say what I felt needed to be said. If you disagree with my statements I am willing to discuss it with you otherwise we will consider the subject dropped.

Thank you for your reply. The subject may have been dropped but that does not mean that people have quit reading it. I have only added my 2 cents worth because I hear these types of discussions all the time and I just felt a need to say what I felt needed to be said. If you disagree with my statements I am willing to discuss it with you otherwise we will consider the subject dropped.

Your observations are accurate in a general sense. But the disagreement between Danjo and myself has been cleared up thru some private discussions, and we understand and respect each others positions. With that regard, we don't have an argument continuing on here. Thanks for your thoughts.

I have been reading the Tracy's biography as well. Although I am only through a portion of of, I do find it interesting on their take of the arts from then to now.