MA Origin

[BrianF]

Is there a general opinion as to the 'Oldest' MA style? As countries conquered others and then in turn were conquered themselves, ideas undoubtedly were passed around. For example, my limited knowledge of TKD shows Japanese and Chinese influences for a number of reasons.

I am not looking for a 'my style is better than your style' conversation or anything like that. And I don't think there is a wrong answer to the question. Just curious.


BrianF

[Andrew Green]

Is there a general opinion as to the 'Oldest' MA style? As countries conquered others and then in turn were conquered themselves, ideas undoubtedly were passed around. For example, my limited knowledge of TKD shows Japanese and Chinese influences for a number of reasons.

I am not looking for a 'my style is better than your style' conversation or anything like that. And I don't think there is a wrong answer to the question. Just curious.


BrianF


Martial arts has been around for a very long time, pretty much as far back as history can take us.

There was even a complete martial arts system found painted on a pyramid wall I believe, and the idea of a structured fighting system likely existed long before that.

It's kind of like asking which language is the oldest, there really isn't much of a answer.

[Xue Sheng]

Cave man A hits Cave man B
Cave man B falls down.

Other than that it is very hard to say

pankration is rather old and something called glima, from Iceland, is possibly rather old and Mongolian wrestling is also fairly old too

As far as Chinese martial arts goes it is thought Shuaijiao is the oldest still in existence but note that does not mean it is the oldest CMA it is just the oldest still around or it might be the oldest in existence, hard to say.

[Andy Moynihan]

Back when Ug and Thongor had the world's first fight over, umm....the legends are spotty here but it was either over food, a woman or territory is what the experts have narrowed it down to.

What IS known is that over time the two began thinking up ways to hurt each other and ways to screw up the other's attempts to do the same and thus was born the nucleus of all arts that came after.

Ug was known for his contributions to the arts; the Pointy Stick, the Curved Stick With A String To Make Smaller Pointy Sticks Go Far, and the tactical strategy of "Groups Of Friends Who Protect Ug".

Thongor branched off and developed the AK-1 (what we now know in modern language as the "rock") The AK1-A1( sometimes referred to in the old, traditional tongue as "Stringy Piece Of Animal Skin With Pouch To Make AK-1 Shoot Further"), the idea of intercepting Ug's incoming blows with a counter attack, called "THONGOR COUNTERATTACK!!!", and the coconut helmet.

Took right off from there, it did. :D:D:D

[bowser666]

I think it is hard to say what system is or isn't the oldest. MA has been around since man existed. It started out as hunting and gathering and then man realized that these techniques can work against that other guy in a cave across the valley that takes a big chunk of my food when I hunt. Thus combat ( Martial ) arts began.

[bowser666]

Back when Ug and Thongor had the world's first fight over, umm....the legends are spotty here but it was either over food, a woman or territory is what the experts have narrowed it down to.

What IS known is that over time the two began thinking up ways to hurt each other and ways to screw up the other's attempts to do the same and thus was born the nucleus of all arts that came after.

Ug was known for his contributions to the arts; the Pointy Stick, the Curved Stick With A String To Make Smaller Pointy Sticks Go Far, and the tactical strategy of "Groups Of Friends Who Protect Ug".

Thongor branched off and developed the AK-1 (what we now know in modern language as the "rock") The AK1-A1( sometimes referred to in the old, traditional tongue as "Stringy Piece Of Animal Skin With Pouch To Make AK-1 Shoot Further"), the idea of intercepting Ug's incoming blows with a counter attack, called "THONGOR COUNTERATTACK!!!", and the coconut helmet.

Took right off from there, it did. :D:D:D

Rofl ANDY !!! You have waaaaaay too much time on your hands.

[elder999]

Is there a general opinion as to the 'Oldest' MA style?


I don't know about "oldest," but if you mean "oldest extant"-as in practiced today the way it was at or near the beginning- it's a toss-up. The Katori Shinto Ryu in Japan is pretty substantiated at about 700 yrs. old, and the various kalaripayattu of India is variously dated to the 11th or 12th century.Burmese Bokator, the Khmer foreunner of Muay Thai ,is said to date to about 800A.D. Some Chinese arts might equally old, and who knows what else is out there: African, Egyptian, European or other....

....though, I guess Ug's "pointy stick method" is still extant in one form or another..:lol:

[Brian S]

I'll quote what a friend of mine recently said.


besides, the various 'official' TMA histories are 25% hyperbole, 25% bunk and 50% unverifiable - so it should be called folklore, not history.

according to folklore, Higaonna was illiterate. if you ask a shorin guy, they would point out he suppossedly was a depressed alcoholic womanizer for a decade after returning back from China. ask a goju guy, and they recall the folklore of him breaking the floorboards of the dojo with his stomp kicks. it's folklore and depending on which vantage, you can select the stories to project whatever view you'd like.



So eloquent! :angel:

[Phoenix44]

I had to do a report on the history of MA as part of my BB test. It's probably impossible to determine what was the "oldest" MA. Most of the "history" is apocryphal, for a variety of reasons.

People were illiterate, and so a lot of things didn't get written down.

There was a great deal of secrecy in the arts (still is). If the Master died before passing it on to his disciples...oh well.

Scrolls were destroyed in wars (or intentionally, to maintain secrets).

The martial arts were mixed, depending on on trade routes and who was invading whom at the time. Think of Korea...how many time was Korea invaded throughout history?

There are probably some arts you can trace a little, like India to China to Japan, but that was relatively recent compared to some of the other arts!

Pankration is very old. I saw depictions of some sort of boxing on a mural, probably 4000 years old, on Santorini. Wresting was a very early Olympic event. There are ancient artifacts supporting the existence of warrior women, Amazons, maybe 5000 years ago. And Sparta was an entirely militaristic society 2700 years ago.

So I have to agree with Andy's Ug and Thongor historical document. Martial arts probably developed in many places independently of each other, whenever two people decided they had to, or wanted to, kick someone else's ass.

And thanks for giving me the opportunity to use the word "apocryphal."

[Grendel308]

Andy, Brilliant! That is the best explanation of power politics I have ever heard. I love it! You need to go into politics.:lfao:
Lori M

[bowser666]

Andy, Brilliant! That is the best explanation of power politics I have ever heard. I love it! You need to go into politics.:lfao:
Lori M


Andy for President !!!!!! Nominate Ug as your VP :P

[chinto]

I would say as far as still taught systems perhaps India's Varjimusti is perhaps the oldest... but that is partly research and a lot of guess .. lol .. there is evidence that there was some influences on it by pancratian back in the day of Alexander the Great.. . I would not be surprised to find out that the egyptian and other systems from Egypt and persia and anchaint Isrial and samaria were influinces on pancratian ..

[zDom]

As GM Ed Sell pointed out,

(and this is my paraphrased version from memory; it was several years back)

the earliest documented use of martial arts was

"rock fu"

when Cain slew Abel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abel

[BrianF]

Thanks to all who have responded so far. Very helpful and informative.

BrianF

[JBrainard]

As GM Ed Sell pointed out,

(and this is my paraphrased version from memory; it was several years back)

the earliest documented use of martial arts was

"rock fu"

when Cain slew Abel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abel

That's priceless. :)

[7starmarc]

Pfft!

Everyone knows that the true origins of martial arts is sinanju, after all,


"Karate, Kung Fu, Ninjitsu - they are but shadows. Sinanju is the Sun."
- Grandmaster Chiun

[Bigjoemma]

Most Historians agree the oldest hand to hand martial arts on record is boxing from the middle east and Greece

[Imua Kuntao]

Yes, the bible has many instances that tell of martial skill, for example, when Jesus was in the garden and they came to get him with Judas, Peter drew a sword ( a barong i believe) and cut off a soldier's ear off. Of course it was fixed by Jesus. Before that there was the time when.......
If you are not a Christian then yes it was a caveman who began martial arts, or the dinosaurs.

[arnisador]

Oldest? No one knows. Ancient Egyptian images depict boxing. Older images in many areas depict spear-hunting or bow-hunting.

Oldest extant, or with a continuing lineage? Pankration was recreated...so almost surely either Western wrestling or an Indian/Chinese art, I'd guess.

[Mimir]

Pfft!

Everyone knows that the true origins of martial arts is sinanju, after all,

:rofl: That is exactly what I thought of when I read this post! :highfive:

Love the Destroyer series! :ninja:

[Brian S]

Many people seem to equate older with being better which is why others want to legitimize their art by caliming it's the oldest(TSD,TKD).

In fact, I think what people practice today to be the most effective ma ever availiable.

[tshadowchaser]

I am just going to skip over all the posts and say

The oldest style would be some type of hand fighting or club (stick) fighting. It came about when OOOG hit MOOG to get his food back before history was recorded. It continued over the ages and was observed and copied by others down through the ages with revisions being made till we get to today.

[Xue Sheng]

Ever see Jurassic Fight Club
(http://www.history.com/minisites/jurassic-fight-club)

There's your origin :D

[geezer]

Back when Ug and Thongor had the world's first fight...

...Ug was known for his contributions to the arts; the Pointy Stick, the Curved Stick With A String To Make Smaller Pointy Sticks Go Far, and the tactical strategy of "Groups Of Friends Who Protect Ug"...

While I appreciate Mr. Moynihan's contribution, I'm afraid his information is less than accurate. I speak with some authority on this matter as a sworn disciple of the Great-Grandmaster, Th' Ug, the 1,021st generation inheritor of the sustem of Th' Uggery founded by our most-exalted Great Originator, "Ug the Unbeatable". I must point out that the lies of the Thongorites have long been disproven, if you will only reference the petroglyphic and pictographic records at Altamira, Lasceaux and elsewhere. Despite the oft quoted Thogorite motto, "You cant go wrong with a Thong", it is clear that Ug easily defeated Thongor, Gruk, Hgruf, B'dass and all other challengers until his untimely death resulting from injuries sustained in his well known Pointy-Stick duel with a 9 foot tall Cave Bear. It is a matter of some pride among us practicianers of the art of Th'Uggery that the bear died first, prompting Ug's oft quoted final words "Hgrak frak, blech shong p'tooey!" which can be loosely translated as "See you in Hell you bloody bastard!".

I really hope this clears up which lineage is the one, true authentic original, oldest and best martial art ever devised. And as the top certified and only duly ordained US representative of the Grand Inheritor of the system, please direct all inquiries about lessons, ranking, certification, dvd's, on-line training programs, souveniers, autographed photographs, and official th'uggery memorabilia to me at my website. Thank you in advance for your inerest.

[Andy Moynihan]

While I appreciate Mr. Moynihan's contribution, I'm afraid his information is less than accurate. I speak with some authority on this matter as a sworn disciple of the Great-Grandmaster, Th' Ug, the 1,021st generation inheritor of the sustem of Th' Uggery founded by our most-exalted Great Originator, "Ug the Unbeatable". I must point out that the lies of the Thongorites have long been disproven, if you will only reference the petroglyphic and pictographic records at Altamira, Lasceaux and elsewhere. Despite the oft quoted Thogorite motto, "You cant go wrong with a Thong", it is clear that Ug easily defeated Thongor, Gruk, Hgruf, B'dass and all other challengers until his untimely death resulting from injuries sustained in his well known Pointy-Stick duel with a 9 foot tall Cave Bear. It is a matter of some pride among us practicianers of the art of Th'Uggery that the bear died first, prompting Ug's oft quoted final words "Hgrak frak, blech shong p'tooey!" which can be loosely translated as "See you in Hell you bloody bastard!".

I really hope this clears up which lineage is the one, true authentic original, oldest and best martial art ever devised. And as the top certified and only duly ordained US representative of the Grand Inheritor of the system, please direct all inquiries about lessons, ranking, certification, dvd's, on-line training programs, souveniers, autographed photographs, and official th'uggery memorabilia to me at my website. Thank you in advance for your inerest.


Not a bad article. In fact even largely correct.

Except for the tiny, and, I'm sure, totally accidental omission of the fact that on the day of the fight, Th'Ug rigged the match by sending 39 cavewomen to Thongor's dressing cave, and though he satisfied them all, entered the ring with his stamina markedly depleted. :D

[chinto]

As GM Ed Sell pointed out,

(and this is my paraphrased version from memory; it was several years back)

the earliest documented use of martial arts was

"rock fu"

when Cain slew Abel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abel


hmm ya rock fu is pretty old all right!