Kenpo Weapons Techniques

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

What the heck is going on with all this horrible Kenpo weapons stuff?

NOW I KNOW I AM GONNA GET A BUNCH OF E MAILS SAYING THAT SO AND SO HAS DEVELOPED THIS AND THAT AND IT WORKS AND IT IS THE LATEST AND GREATEST THING. GM SO AND SO IS A EXPERT KNIFE/STICK FIGHTER AND PROFESSOR X OR Y JUST DEVELOPED MORE LANCE TECHNIQUES TO DEAL WITH THIS AND THAT. FORM 6, 7 & 8 ARE ALL WEAPONS FORMS AND THAT TEACHES BLAH BLAH BLAH

HOG WASH

THE KENPO WEAPONS TECHNIQUES ARE MOSTLY CATORGY COMPLETION AND SOME BASIC IDEAS. THAT IS IT!!!!!

KENPO IS A KICK BUTT EMPTY HANDS SELF DEFENSE ART!!!
NOT A WEAPONS ART!!!!
NOT A GRAPPLING ART!!!!!

HOLY COW PEOPLE

WHAT THE HECK!

If you want ground work go get trained in wrestling, judo or bjj.

If you want weapons training get some FMA training..

Don't try to fit a square peg in a round hole.


Just my thoughts.

[MJS]

And don't forget that just because you are having a hard time with something or that something is 'missing' it just may be your Kenpo that is lacking, not the whole art.

The above is a reply that I get when I too mention certain areas, such as grappling. It was not intended to take a shot at you or your post. In a way, I'm actually agreeing with much of what you say.

Now, this isn't to say that the weapons stuff won't work. However, and this is just my opinion, but if I'm going to dive into the ground or weapon world, I'd rather look at arts that specialize. I get my ground work from BJJ and my weapons work from Arnis. Have I made drastic changes in the Kenpo defenses? I try to maintain the Kenpo flavor, but I use the ideas from the others to make it better for me. :)

[kenpofighter]

That is why if you forget what the attack is for a teck. just make it for a right punch, because you have a good chance of being right. Kenpo was and is not a weapons art. Yeah, we have five knife defenses out of 150 to 154 teck. But I must say that we do have a few more club attacks.

[brianhunter]

I agree....sometimes when people try to "kenpoize" an outside element or issue people feel is lacking in the base system. When a lot of people do this they miss the essence of what they are trying to convert or fill in the system.

By the way Brian....I'll get those vids we took emailed before the end of the week. I was fun working out this weekend! I was watching the video from the camp last year and it appears we did a lot of joking/training together there too hahahaha.

[HKphooey]

As always.... if it works for you, use it. If it does not, don't! Simple as that.

(If it does not, you are probably doing it wrong :) )

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

What the heck is going on with all this horrible Kenpo weapons stuff?

NOW I KNOW I AM GONNA GET A BUNCH OF E MAILS SAYING THAT SO AND SO HAS DEVELOPED THIS AND THAT AND IT WORKS AND IT IS THE LATEST AND GREATEST THING. GM SO AND SO IS A EXPERT KNIFE/STICK FIGHTER AND PROFESSOR X OR Y JUST DEVELOPED MORE LANCE TECHNIQUES TO DEAL WITH THIS AND THAT. FORM 6, 7 & 8 ARE ALL WEAPONS FORMS AND THAT TEACHES BLAH BLAH BLAH

HOG WASH

THE KENPO WEAPONS TECHNIQUES ARE MOSTLY CATORGY COMPLETION AND SOME BASIC IDEAS. THAT IS IT!!!!!

KENPO IS A KICK BUTT EMPTY HANDS SELF DEFENSE ART!!!
NOT A WEAPONS ART!!!!
NOT A GRAPPLING ART!!!!!

HOLY COW PEOPLE

WHAT THE HECK!

If you want ground work go get trained in wrestling, judo or bjj.

If you want weapons training get some FMA training..

Don't try to fit a square peg in a round hole.


Just my thoughts.

Near as I can tell, you're preaching to the choir. When I wanted to leanr how to fight with sharp shiny thingy's, I didn;t turn to kenpo forms. I went to FMA, and some sepcialized JMA. Wrassle? BJJ. Throw people? Judo.

I think the weapons sets in kenpo aboludly suck. The knife and stick sets are filled with bad ideas...I often have to de-program kenpoka around this idea. Luckily, having them try to use their sticks while I come at them in full Arnis mode, it doesn't take long. When I started Arnis, it was considered absolute blasphemy to go outside the kenpo system for anything. At the friday night seminars the year after Mr. parker died, some guy was there teaching "kenpo sticks". I held mine like an escrimador, and he promptly went off on why we should never do it like the FMA's.

I went along for the sake of respectfulness to Mr. Parker (it was the memorial IKC), but the rest of the seminar, I never saw him present stuff that wasn't better adressed in FMA. I look at it functionally: who actually has more front line experience training, sparring, and fighting with sticks....kenpo guys, or FMA guys. So, who is more likely to have better practical experience informing their expertise?

D.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

As always.... if it works for you, use it. If it does not, don't! Simple as that.

(If it does not, you are probably doing it wrong :) )

Hey, Brian...you coming to budocamp?

[HKphooey]

Hey, Brian...you coming to budocamp?


Actually it is Wayne. :) Where is the camp?

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Actually it is Wayne. :) Where is the camp?

Sorry about that. In a fit of my usual coordinative excellence, I hit the wrong button...was aiming (mentally, anyway) for Brian Hunter. However, if you're interested, we'd love to have you. Omaha, Nebraska, mid september (www.budocamponline.com (http://www.budocamponline.com)).

Back to target practice,

D.

[Doc]

Ed Parker's vision of his modern Kenpo was, and has always been philosophically, an empty hand art/science.

In his transition to the Chinese Influence of Ark Wong and others, he installed, (with the assistance of Chuck Sullivan), A Staff Set at the urgings of Sifu Ark Wong to "improve body mechanics." Obviously from a self-defense perspective, a staff is not a consideration in day-to-day self defense. (please keep the broom stick in a parking lot argument to yourself).

When Gil Hibben created the Parker Knife as his black belt thesis project, in sparked some interest in knives with Ed Parker himself, but still essentially lay dormant until the IKC Kata/Forms Divisions began to grow.

Originally, "kata" was a singular group of competitors, primarily because initially Ed Parker taught Kenpo really didn't have "forms" of any note or codification. Thus the first IKC was dominated by Japanese and Okinawan Traditionalists. In fact, only stand-out Kajukenbo competitors Carlos Bunda in black uniform, and Steve Sanders in white, made much of splash even in "kumite" or sparring divisions. Thus, the very basic and developing forms of kenpo were not suitable for competition. Imagine your odds of winning in black belt competition with "Long One."

So this prompted Ed Parker to create forms specifically to allow Kenpo in His Lineage to compete in His Tournament. Every form after "Short Three" was specifically created for that purpose, and a division created to accommodate them. As previously stated, originally there was one "kata" division. Than with the explosion of Chinese Stylist participating, Forms were divided into "hard," and "soft" divisions.

Some Kenpo/Kajukenbo students had difficulty fitting, (and winning), in the two divisions, so a third division of "medium forms" was created specifically to accommodate them.

Than the traditionalist started bringing weapons forms into their competition and winning. With complaints from empty hand competitors of unfair competition, an "open" weapons forms division was created.

With the introduction of traditional weapons forms divisions to the IKC, Parker was deluged by Kenpo Students to create weapons forms so they could compete. This is what brought weapons into the commercial kenpo curriculum. None of those forms were created for kenpo self-defense purposes.

[IWishToLearn]

*Bookmarks post*

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Ed Parker's vision of his modern Kenpo was, and has always been philosophically, an empty hand art/science.

In his transition to the Chinese Influence of Ark Wong and others, he installed, (with the assistance of Chuck Sullivan), A Staff Set at the urgings of Sifu Ark Wong to "improve body mechanics." Obviously from a self-defense perspective, a staff is not a consideration in day-to-day self defense. (please keep the broom stick in a parking lot argument to yourself).

When Gil Hibben created the Parker Knife as his black belt thesis project, in sparked some interest in knives with Ed Parker himself, but still essentially lay dormant until the IKC Kata/Forms Divisions began to grow.

Originally, "kata" was a singular group of competitors, primarily because initially Ed Parker taught Kenpo really didn't have "forms" of any note or codification. Thus the first IKC was dominated by Japanese and Okinawan Traditionalists. In fact, only stand-out Kajukenbo competitors Carlos Bunda in black uniform, and Steve Sanders in white, made much of splash even in "kumite" or sparring divisions. Thus, the very basic and developing forms of kenpo were not suitable for competition. Imagine your odds of winning in black belt competition with "Long One."

So this prompted Ed Parker to create forms specifically to allow Kenpo in His Lineage to compete in His Tournament. Every form after "Short Three" was specifically created for that purpose, and a division created to accommodate them. As previously stated, originally there was one "kata" division. Than with the explosion of Chinese Stylist participating, Forms were divided into "hard," and "soft" divisions.

Some Kenpo/Kajukenbo students had difficulty fitting, (and winning), in the two divisions, so a third division of "medium forms" was created specifically to accommodate them.

Than the traditionalist started bringing weapons forms into their competition and winning. With complaints from empty hand competitors of unfair competition, an "open" weapons forms division was created.

With the introduction of traditional weapons forms divisions to the IKC, Parker was deluged by Kenpo Students to create weapons forms so they could compete. This is what brought weapons into the commercial kenpo curriculum. None of those forms were created for kenpo self-defense purposes.

Yeah, but what would you know about it? Oh...wait...I seem to recall something about somebody running the IKC's for a dozen or so years, including writing the rulebook and scoring criteria for judges to follow in various forms divisions. Nevermind.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Being a taekwondoist, I see a lot of taekwondo schools that start introducing weapons into their taekwondo curriculum.

Some won't do so until after the student in blackbelt. This is mainly to offer the student something more than just more kicks and punches and poomsae to keep them interested and thus, paying.

Some do so at points in the kyu ranks. Frankly, I think that this is just a gimmick to entice kids into joining and sticking around past green belt. I see no benefit to weapons in an empty handed art in the kyu ranks and limited benefit in an empty handed art in the dan ranks, particularly in kukkiwon or WTF schools.

I don't know if the same dynamic rears its head in kenpo or other styles, so if I'm way off base or off topic, my apologies.

Daniel

[MattJ]

With the introduction of traditional weapons forms divisions to the IKC, Parker was deluged by Kenpo Students to create weapons forms so they could compete. This is what brought weapons into the commercial kenpo curriculum. None of those forms were created for kenpo self-defense purposes.

Sorry so late to the party, but I just saw this! Very interesting, Doc. Certainly explains a lot about some of the weapons techniques and forms in EPAK.

[hafoc]

I hang out at a local Parker Kenpo school, which is run by a wonderful guy, one of the world’s few real gentleman. He allows me to work out solo there and to experiment with my material on his students without any complaint. So, I’ve had the chance to observe Kenpo up close, particularly its weapons stuff. It’s pretty much the same sort of waving sticks and stick-like objects in the air that you see in other karate and TKD dojos. They don’t even practice partner training they way they do with the empty hand stuff (a real strength of the system IMO).

Among other things, I work with a sword group out of Atlanta. The core of our practice is partner drills and then free play. Our material is worlds apart from what you see either in this Kenpo school or in the other karate schools I’ve trained in. (Before you argue that you can’t compare swords and sticks, let me just say that a two-handed sword is used in much the same way as any staff.)

There are a number of reasons for this, but a major reason I think is the sparring. We go full contact as if these were real weapons and we really meant to hurt or kill each other. Until you do that, you really can’t appreciate what works and what doesn’t. We’ve seen the same thing happen as a result of MMA: what karate people thought were devastating blows and sure fire techniques turned out not to be.

Unfortunately, the students in the dojos who don’t have the benefit of this sparring and more realistic training, generally think they’re learning the real thing. It’s a shame and a disservice to the students.

I say this with regret, since I spent many years waving sticks around in the air myself. Those years didn’t prepare me in the least to deal with a situation in which the other guy really meant to hurt me.