I hurt my friend out of love...

[Touch Of Death]

I feel kind of bad, but I have this female friend whom was throwing fake punches at me. I ignored the fients and continued with what I was saying to our other friend. She asked why I wasn't even flinching and I thought about it and explained that I somehow could tell that by the way she moved, I did not sense a threat. Later over a game of chess it came up that she felt she was capable of hurting me. With no bragging intended, I told her she would hurt herself before she ever hurt me. She demanded I up to feel the wrath of her punch; so, I did. She has been to the doctor twice since the incident.

I feel bad but, I felt she really needed to know, given her line of work, which is both security and bartending. Should I have let it go so far?
Sean

[thardey]

I feel kind of bad, but I have this female friend whom was throwing fake punches at me. I ignored the fients and continued with what I was saying to our other friend. She asked why I wasn't even flinching and I thought about it and explained that I somehow could tell that by the way she moved, I did not sense a threat. Later over a game of chess it came up that she felt she was capable of hurting me. With no bragging intended, I told her she would hurt herself before she ever hurt me. She demanded I up to feel the wrath of her punch; so, I did. She has been to the doctor twice since the incident.

I feel bad but, I felt she really needed to know, given her line of work, which is both security and bartending. Should I have let it go so far?
Sean

Really, how far did it go? Did she end up hurting herself, or did you hurt her while defending yourself?

My first thought is that she set the "pace" for the competition. (Which is what it sounds like) some competitions do end it trips to the doctor. At least she should be glad that she found a boundary line through a friend, and not an antagonist.

On the other hand, I know there are always the questions of "should I have been more careful, should I have not risen to the bait, etc." These questions must be asked, but know that there are no answers for them. Ask them, accept them as valid questions, and then move on to make sure that you don't lose a relationship.

[terryl965]

Sean sometimes people ego's are bigger than there common sense and we must always protect pourself from any type of harm. So the way I see it she made her decission and you did what you needed.

[Steve]

I can't imagine that any situation involving a friend would end with either in a hospital. It seems to me that there's a lot of information missing.

And you only feel "kind of" bad? Really? She must be a really good friend.

[thardey]

I can't imagine that any situation involving a friend would end with either in a hospital. It seems to me that there's a lot of information missing.

And you only feel "kind of" bad? Really? She must be a really good friend.

He didn't say anything about a hospital, and there's no need to get sarcastic.

I've hurt my friends accidentally while sparring, and I felt "kind of bad." I would have felt "really bad" if I had hurt them out of anger.

[Jade Tigress]

Sean, don't beat yourself up too hard about this. I can understand feeling bad about, and to an extent, you should. But, she provoked. I'm sure you used control. It's better she learn her abilities (or disabilities) from someone who knows control than thinking she's *all that* with someone who really doesn't care if they tear her apart.

We can all suffer injuries from our everyday training, it goes with the territory. What exactly happened? I'm sure you've apologized to her, but what the heck made her think she could take on a skilled martial artist? Chances are, if she was a trained martial artist, whatever technique caused the injury may not have affected a training partner the same way due to conditioning.

In any case, it wasn't intentional harm on your part and it sounds like she was being quite obnoxious.

[Kacey]

I don't know if it was love - annoyance, perhaps - but nonetheless, she persevered in her quest to have you punch her until you finally did - and, as hard as it is to deal with when you've hurt a friend, she asked for it. I hope she recovers quickly and well - and that she's learned from this to be wary of what she asks for, because she just might get it. Don't beat yourself up over it.

I do have one question - did she hurt herself hitting you, or did you react to something she did to provoke you? It's not quite clear - either way, she got what she asked for.

[The Anarchist]

Pain is a good teacher.

[arnisador]

I don't understand exactly what happened between "so, I did" and "She has been to the doctor twice".

[BrandiJo]

To me, it sounds more like she hit him and hurt herself (sprained wrist comes to mind) if thats the case she can take it as lesson learned and be more careful next time. If you struck back, or blocked overly aggressive i would understand your guilt but still she provoked you and you put her off for awhile it sounds like.

[Brian King]

Honesty does not have to be guilty or apologized for.

regards
Brian King

[Pacificshore]

Sounds to me like a self-inflicted injury. She'll heal like anyone else, and then get back to training and doing it properly too ;)

[morph4me]

I don't understand exactly what happened between "so, I did" and "She has been to the doctor twice".

Neither do I

[Cirdan]

Seems she had the privilege of getting an extremely valuable lesson...
Did the injury result from a bad fist or what?

[Brian R. VanCise]

I don't understand exactly what happened between "so, I did" and "She has been to the doctor twice".

It seems there is quite a bit of info left out.

[Jade Tigress]

I don't understand exactly what happened between "so, I did" and "She has been to the doctor twice".


It seems there is quite a bit of info left out.


I'm guessing that's because he feels so bad about it.

Upon re-reading, it does sound like it was a self-inflicted injury.

[Cryozombie]

The way I see it...

There are a lot of folks in the martial arts who think because they train that they can fight, but have never been in a situation to use it, and therefore have a sorta god complex... "I train, therefore I win" but they don't actually know how to apply that training.

I know... I myself went down that road before, and I see it all the time now. So....

Regardless of the outcome, the lesson was important. She was developing a habit that could/would have gotten her hurt worse or killed. Count whatever happened as somthing that became neccessary to help her development, and in the long run keep her safe.

[Brother John]

I feel kind of bad, but I have this female friend whom was throwing fake punches at me. I ignored the fients and continued with what I was saying to our other friend. She asked why I wasn't even flinching and I thought about it and explained that I somehow could tell that by the way she moved, I did not sense a threat. Later over a game of chess it came up that she felt she was capable of hurting me. With no bragging intended, I told her she would hurt herself before she ever hurt me. She demanded I up to feel the wrath of her punch; so, I did. She has been to the doctor twice since the incident.

I feel bad but, I felt she really needed to know, given her line of work, which is both security and bartending. Should I have let it go so far?
Sean

HOW was she hurt? Did she hurt her hand on you or did you strike her or cinch up a joint lock or something???

Your Brother
John

[Tez3]

I'm really sorry as this is going to sound so wrong but..ROFL!

I've come across this type of thing a few times especially as I'm a female, people will push and push you as they ( always men in my case) are so sure you can't hurt them so when you do all I can do is laugh my socks off. No sympathy for them I'm afraid. It's called poetic justice.

[Steve]

He didn't say anything about a hospital, and there's no need to get sarcastic.

I've hurt my friends accidentally while sparring, and I felt "kind of bad." I would have felt "really bad" if I had hurt them out of anger.
Oh, sorry. Doctor, not hospital. This is ridiculous. OP allowed himself to be goaded into some kind of interaction with his "friend" that he admits to knowing in advance will result in her being "hurt" and then feels "kind of bad." Seriously?

When I roll with someone who is brand new, they often don't know when they're in danger. It's my job as a more experienced person to keep us both safe. This would include people in situations like this. If you can't do that, maybe you should avoid showing your "friends" any of your techniques and try some of those tactics that self-defense studios often tout, like how to diffuse a situation without violence.

To be clear, what distinguishes this is that it clearly was not self defense. It was a situation that should have been diffused, but due (based on the OP's original post) to arrogance and a complete lack of situational awareness, escalated into a situation where someone got hurt, leading to two visits to the doctor.

[Sukerkin]

I know that we can speculate on limited information, it's one of the more useful human traits after all. But until ToD can fill in the blanks, if he wishes, we're not really going to be able to give a response appropriate to the situation.

[Steve]

Fair enough. This whole thing smacks of bullying to me, which happens to be a real button for me. I guess we'll wait for more information, if it's forthcoming.

Steve

[Tez3]

Why was she standing there throwing punches at someone who was in a conversation with someone else? turn it round the other way and see how people would approach the problem if he'd been throwing punches at her or a man had been throwing punches at another man.

[Steve]

Why was she standing there throwing punches at someone who was in a conversation with someone else? turn it round the other way and see how people would approach the problem if he'd been throwing punches at her or a man had been throwing punches at another man.Tez, gender is really irrelevant here. I understand, but there's a big difference in my mind between social dysfunction and contact resulting in injury. If you can't diffuse a situation where a "friend" who is clearly socially awkward and insecure (male or female), then you have to take more responsibility than just "feeling kind of bad," but happy that you taught her a lesson.

Once again, I'm hoping there's more to this story.

[Tez3]

Tez, gender is really irrelevant here. I understand, but there's a big difference in my mind between social dysfunction and contact resulting in injury. If you can't diffuse a situation where a "friend" who is clearly socially awkward and insecure (male or female), then you have to take more responsibility than just "feeling kind of bad," but happy that you taught her a lesson.

Once again, I'm hoping there's more to this story.

I'm sure there is more to it but nothing says that the friend is socially awkward and insecure. what is says is... this incredibly annoying and rude person was throwing punches at someone deep in conversation with someone else, this friend them started taunting him that he couldn't hurt her because what he did was rubbish so he gave in, gave her a demo and accidentally hurt her more than he meant to. A mistake was made, everybody makes mistakes so lets not jump on the OP and become holier than thou. She got hurt so won't do it again, he got hurt in hurting her so won't do it again. End of.

[Steve]

I'm sure there is more to it but nothing says that the friend is socially awkward and insecure. what is says is... this incredibly annoying and rude person was throwing punches at someone deep in conversation with someone else, this friend them started taunting him that he couldn't hurt her because what he did was rubbish so he gave in, gave her a demo and accidentally hurt her more than he meant to. A mistake was made, everybody makes mistakes so lets not jump on the OP and become holier than thou. She got hurt so won't do it again, he got hurt in hurting her so won't do it again. End of.
Tez, I think we're saying the same thing. You say "annoying and rude" and I say "awkward and insecure". Same stuff. Regardless, how the OP reacted is the important part. I sincerely hope I'm not coming off as holier than thou. I do think, absent further information, that the OP is largely responsible for allowing the situation to escalate. While her punching the air around him was annoying and rude, you don't think the dismissive response by him was equally annoying and rude? I do. I'm not saying the OP should be drawn and quartered. I'm saying he should feel more than "kind of bad" and he should take responsibility for his part in mishandling the situation rather than have a bunch of internet buddies tell him it was all her fault.

[Tez3]

Tez, I think we're saying the same thing. You say "annoying and rude" and I say "awkward and insecure". Same stuff. Regardless, how the OP reacted is the important part. I sincerely hope I'm not coming off as holier than thou. I do think, absent further information, that the OP is largely responsible for allowing the situation to escalate. While her punching the air around him was annoying and rude, you don't think the dismissive response by him was equally annoying and rude? I do. I'm not saying the OP should be drawn and quartered. I'm saying he should feel more than "kind of bad" and he should take responsibility for his part in mishandling the situation rather than have a bunch of internet buddies tell him it was all her fault.

In my book I'm afraid annoying and rude is certainly not the same as awkward and insecure! If someone was doing that to me while I was talking to someone they certainly would be ignored, it's incredibly bad manners to interrupt people in conversation. The OP does feels sorry thats why he posted, all I'm saying is probably a very British thing, it's done with and they should stop whinging and get on with it. All this touchy feely, must get counselling, sharing feelings stuff is morally sapping and weakens people, they both made mistakes, learn from it and straighten the backbone and get on with their lives.

[Steve]

In my book I'm afraid annoying and rude is certainly not the same as awkward and insecure! If someone was doing that to me while I was talking to someone they certainly would be ignored, it's incredibly bad manners to interrupt people in conversation. The OP does feels sorry thats why he posted, all I'm saying is probably a very British thing, it's done with and they should stop whinging and get on with it. All this touchy feely, must get counselling, sharing feelings stuff is morally sapping and weakens people, they both made mistakes, learn from it and straighten the backbone and get on with their lives.
Tez, you're killing me here. First I'm holier than thou and now I'm touchy feely? If you only knew how far from the truth both of those characterizations really are! :)

I want to be clear that it is my opinion that the OP mishandled the situation and posted, not because he felt bad, but because he wanted for people to tell him that he was right and justified. THAT, to me, is touchy feely BS. "Oh, Sean. You were completely right. It's ALL her fault. She's lucky she has such a great friend." Come on.

I understand that I represent a minority opinion here. I'm okay with that. None of us knows all of the details of what happened and ultimately, we're (as someone else mentioned) filling in a lot of blanks. I could be reading this all wrong, and if that proves to be the case, I'll admit it freely.

[Tez3]

Tez, you're killing me here. First I'm holier than thou and now I'm touchy feely? If you only knew how far from the truth both of those characterizations really are! :)

I want to be clear that it is my opinion that the OP mishandled the situation and posted, not because he felt bad, but because he wanted for people to tell him that he was right and justified. THAT, to me, is touchy feely BS. "Oh, Sean. You were completely right. It's ALL her fault. She's lucky she has such a great friend." Come on.

I understand that I represent a minority opinion here. I'm okay with that. None of us knows all of the details of what happened and ultimately, we're (as someone else mentioned) filling in a lot of blanks. I could be reading this all wrong, and if that proves to be the case, I'll admit it freely.


Why did you assume I was addressing you on my post when I said being holier than thou or touchy feely? I wasn't.

[Jade Tigress]

It was a mistake. We're human. None of us is perfect and sometimes we make the wrong decision. In this case, they both made the wrong decision and hopefully they both learned from it.

[Steve]

Why did you assume I was addressing you on my post when I said being holier than thou or touchy feely? I wasn't.

How could I not? You quoted my post and so were, presumably, responding to me as I'm now responding to you. My bad.

As for the rest, I'm still interested in hearing more of the story.

[Touch Of Death]

Sean, don't beat yourself up too hard about this. I can understand feeling bad about, and to an extent, you should. But, she provoked. I'm sure you used control. It's better she learn her abilities (or disabilities) from someone who knows control than thinking she's *all that* with someone who really doesn't care if they tear her apart.

We can all suffer injuries from our everyday training, it goes with the territory. What exactly happened? I'm sure you've apologized to her, but what the heck made her think she could take on a skilled martial artist? Chances are, if she was a trained martial artist, whatever technique caused the injury may not have affected a training partner the same way due to conditioning.

In any case, it wasn't intentional harm on your part and it sounds like she was being quite obnoxious.Oh, I didn't apologize. She punched wrong and got instant tennis elbow, according to her doctor. I did admit that I knew she would suffer a consequence. I helped remove the doubt. I have since taught her, with the left hand, how to throw a punch.
Sean

[terryl965]

Oh, I didn't apologize. She punched wrong and got instant tennis elbow, according to her doctor. I did admit that I knew she would suffer a consequence. I helped remove the doubt. I have since taught her, with the left hand, how to throw a punch.
Sean

Did she at least thank you for al you did.

[Touch Of Death]

I don't know if it was love - annoyance, perhaps - but nonetheless, she persevered in her quest to have you punch her until you finally did - and, as hard as it is to deal with when you've hurt a friend, she asked for it. I hope she recovers quickly and well - and that she's learned from this to be wary of what she asks for, because she just might get it. Don't beat yourself up over it.

I do have one question - did she hurt herself hitting you, or did you react to something she did to provoke you? It's not quite clear - either way, she got what she asked for.
Too much power behind a winged out elbow. I would never hit her. Whom would I beat up on the chess board?
Sean

[Touch Of Death]

Oh, sorry. Doctor, not hospital. This is ridiculous. OP allowed himself to be goaded into some kind of interaction with his "friend" that he admits to knowing in advance will result in her being "hurt" and then feels "kind of bad." Seriously?

When I roll with someone who is brand new, they often don't know when they're in danger. It's my job as a more experienced person to keep us both safe. This would include people in situations like this. If you can't do that, maybe you should avoid showing your "friends" any of your techniques and try some of those tactics that self-defense studios often tout, like how to diffuse a situation without violence.

To be clear, what distinguishes this is that it clearly was not self defense. It was a situation that should have been diffused, but due (based on the OP's original post) to arrogance and a complete lack of situational awareness, escalated into a situation where someone got hurt, leading to two visits to the doctor.You have a point, but She does posture in public quite frequently. I just wanted her to know what would actually happen were she to land a punch. My point, to any and all, is that if you don't know how to punch, don't. You could hurt yourself.
Sean

[Touch Of Death]

It seems there is quite a bit of info left out.Not really. I told her she would hurt herself if she struck me, and she did. Nothing more to interject. I didn't block.
Sean

[Touch Of Death]

Fair enough. This whole thing smacks of bullying to me, which happens to be a real button for me. I guess we'll wait for more information, if it's forthcoming.

SteveI love this response. Which of us was the bully? If you guess her you are on to something. This was the reason for the lesson.
Sean

[Touch Of Death]

Did she at least thank you for al you did.She was quite thankfull once I taught her to do it right.
sean

[MA-Caver]

My initial thoughts on this is probably the same as the one who said something about egos. Ego will definitely get you hurt. Egos throw common sense right out the window.
Presumably you're a higher rank than your friend? If so then it was pretty stupid to try to make a challenge on that. If not (you're the same ranks) then she should've also considered that you're going to be stronger than her unless she's been really working on her strength building regime.
A person telling me to hit them as hard as I can is asking for it. A person wanting to hit me as hard as they can is likewise asking for it. Not that I'll retaliate but like her, they could hurt themselves because unless their mind is focused they're going to probably hurt themselves.
IMO nobody has ANYTHING to prove to nobody. You do what you can do and try to improve on the things you can't.

Don't feel bad if it was all in training. If you're lucky and she's receptive then you two can talk it out. Like many of us here I hope she's in a frame of mind to discuss the situation rationally and accept where she might've been wrong.

[Kacey]

Oh, I didn't apologize. She punched wrong and got instant tennis elbow, according to her doctor. I did admit that I knew she would suffer a consequence. I helped remove the doubt. I have since taught her, with the left hand, how to throw a punch.
Sean

Sean, you didn't hurt her - she annoyed you into letting her hurt herself; there's a difference. You have nothing to feel guilty about, IMHO.

[jks9199]

Let me see if I understand this right...

You had a friend who was being kind of stupid, punching at you. You proceed to let her punch so incorrectly that she suffers instantly a chronic injury, that may not heal for many months, and may be a recurring problem for her.

And, I suppose, you're feeling a tad guilty about that.

I think you should feel some guilt over that. A few minutes thought, and you could probably have found a much better way to teach the same lesson.

However, she also brought it on herself, and bears the ultimate responsibility. She hurt herself; you simply failed to minimize the chance of that. There does come a time with some students that you have to let them learn lessons the hard way.

A side note... You're surprised that people came to the wrong conclusion. Reread your posts. You don't give much info to judge by. Perhaps a more complete story in the first place might have avoided the confusion.

[MA-Caver]

Let me see if I understand this right...

You had a friend who was being kind of stupid, punching at you. You proceed to let her punch so incorrectly that she suffers instantly a chronic injury, that may not heal for many months, and may be a recurring problem for her.

And, I suppose, you're feeling a tad guilty about that.

I think you should feel some guilt over that. A few minutes thought, and you could probably have found a much better way to teach the same lesson.

However, she also brought it on herself, and bears the ultimate responsibility. She hurt herself; you simply failed to minimize the chance of that. There does come a time with some students that you have to let them learn lessons the hard way.

A side note... You're surprised that people came to the wrong conclusion. Reread your posts. You don't give much info to judge by. Perhaps a more complete story in the first place might have avoided the confusion.
While I agree that the story wasn't that informative ... give the guy a break, as he was probably writing from the top of his heart... not his head... so at least kudos for him sharing this with us and trusting us to give him whatever that he needed to deal with this. :asian:

I agree that lessons ... some lessons have to be learned hard. But it's not easy to see a friend having to go through that... it says a lot about a person who hurts when their friend hurts too. :asian:

[arnisador]

I think you should feel some guilt over that. A few minutes thought, and you could probably have found a much better way to teach the same lesson.

However, she also brought it on herself, and bears the ultimate responsibility.

Yes, that's pretty much how I feel. It's her fault, but there's also an element of entrapment here.


Perhaps a more complete story in the first place might have avoided the confusion.

I assumed the tease was intentional and thought it silly.

[Tames D]

Let me see if I understand this right...

You had a friend who was being kind of stupid, punching at you. You proceed to let her punch so incorrectly that she suffers instantly a chronic injury, that may not heal for many months, and may be a recurring problem for her.

And, I suppose, you're feeling a tad guilty about that.

I think you should feel some guilt over that. A few minutes thought, and you could probably have found a much better way to teach the same lesson.

However, she also brought it on herself, and bears the ultimate responsibility. She hurt herself; you simply failed to minimize the chance of that. There does come a time with some students that you have to let them learn lessons the hard way.

A side note... You're surprised that people came to the wrong conclusion. Reread your posts. You don't give much info to judge by. Perhaps a more complete story in the first place might have avoided the confusion.
Hey, he did it out of love...http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif

[Dark Gift Concepts]

I think if you knew that what she was saying and about to do was going to be wrong and she might hurt herself, if you are a Martial Artist then knowing better you should have steered her from that train of thought.
Explained 1st why you thought what u did, maybe had her show you in slow-mo what she intended to do then correct her. But to have her do something that u knew would hurt her, even to the extent of a tennis elbow shows lack of respect and you just wanted your ego stroked and to def prove her wrong.

To hurt is the easiest thing in the world, but to heal and understand might take a lifetime.

[Touch Of Death]

I think if you knew that what she was saying and about to do was going to be wrong and she might hurt herself, if you are a Martial Artist then knowing better you should have steered her from that train of thought.
Explained 1st why you thought what u did, maybe had her show you in slow-mo what she intended to do then correct her. But to have her do something that u knew would hurt her, even to the extent of a tennis elbow shows lack of respect and you just wanted your ego stroked and to def prove her wrong.

To hurt is the easiest thing in the world, but to heal and understand might take a lifetime.True, but my whole intent was to show her that she is not as capable of hurting others as she pretends to be. I guess I only thought she would temporarily hurt her hand. The elbow thing was unplanned; however, I would hate to see her try to hit someone in real life and then suffer a serious beating or death as a result. I've known her for thirty years. I just wanted her to see.
Sean

[Dark Gift Concepts]

True, but my whole intent was to show her that she is not as capable of hurting others as she pretends to be. I guess I only thought she would temporarily hurt her hand. The elbow thing was unplanned; however, I would hate to see her try to hit someone in real life and then suffer a serious beating or death as a result. I've known her for thirty years. I just wanted her to see.
Sean

I truley understand, but since you have trained for awhile it is always best to find the better course. Alas it is what it is and from your response you know better, so lesson learned both ways.

[The Last Legionary]

So, you've caused permanent injury to someone, because you wanted them to see how unskilled they were? Well, that's ****ing brilliant. Good job. Good thing it wasn't someone claiming they could fight off a rapist. I doubt the cops would believe the "I had to rape her because she said she could fight off a rapist and I had to prove her wrong, because I cared about her" bit. Some people, sheesh.

[Dark Gift Concepts]

So, you've caused permanent injury to someone, because you wanted them to see how unskilled they were? Well, that's ****ing brilliant. Good job. Good thing it wasn't someone claiming they could fight off a rapist. I doubt the cops would believe the "I had to rape her because she said she could fight off a rapist and I had to prove her wrong, because I cared about her" bit. Some people, sheesh.

The master has spoken...Buuuuuhhhhaaa

[The Last Legionary]

The master has spoken...Buuuuuhhhhaaa
No, just me. I never claim to be a master of anything. I do however know enough not to burn the village to save it.

[Cirdan]

Well perhaps she could have hit a bag instead but the results would have been pretty much the same.

[Shotgun Buddha]

Better she get an injury now in training that pops her little bubble, than have had to find out she can't punch when it really counted.
Im with Tez on this one. Over here in Ireland, most people would just consider this a bit of poetic justice.

[arnisador]

Better she get an injury now in training

She isn't in training, as I understand it.

[Tez3]

She isn't in training, as I understand it.


then it's probably time she was!

Things like this happen all the time, mistakes made, lessons learned.
One thing for sure the OP won't be sharing anything with us again as he has now been accuse of being a bully then practically a rapist. Then again 'sharing' is vastly over rated!

[The Last Legionary]

On the "then it's probably time she was!" part, I agree.

However I disagree with "Things like this happen all the time, mistakes made, lessons learned. ". How would you feel if you were the one hurt because your "well meaning" friend decided to show you the error of your ways? Should your instructor dislocate something on you as a correction? Break something? There are better ways, and any competent instructor will know that. Then again, is "The Trash Heap" a trained instructor, or just a student who aspires towards such "greatness"? I'm too lazy to look. :lol:

On the rest, no I didn't accuse him of being a rapist. I made a comparison to the logic of his statement. RIF!

[Brian King]

Sean wrote in the OP

“given her line of work, which is both security and bartending.” And
“She does posture in public”

Somebody that does security work should not be posing and acting tough. It hurts the industry image as well as the so called professionals. A professional should understand that as the Anarchist wrote on page one, “Pain is a good teacher”. It is not the only teacher granted but it is an honest teacher and it is usually a quick teacher for example in Systema we have a saying that “a wooden floor is an honest friend” referencing learning how to roll on a hard surface and the benefits that it provides. Hopefully the female learned more than merely some body mechanics. As security it may be her job to protect customers and property, to work with others to promote safety and calmness no matter how chaotic of circumstances, it is too bad that she was injured, but, it could have been tragic had it happened while she was ‘on the job’.

Sean also wrote in the original post

” Should I have let it go so far?”

No, I do not think that he should have. I am not saying that because the female was injured (I think that the injury served a needed purpose) but I am saying that because Sean is questioning himself. He says that he feels bad and wonders if he should have let it go so far. This questioning shows in my opinion that he was not ready to injure her or allow her to injure herself at the start of the experience and now he seems to be trying to justify his actions in his own mind. Some people also like to hold on to the ‘feeling bad’ part and this might also suggest a weakness in the psyche that should be addressed. What I am trying to say and doing a poor job of it is that in order to provide honesty in any circumstances a person needs to have a strong and healthy psyche but especially so when an injury (Physical, spiritual or mental injury) may occur, otherwise two (or more) injuries may occur some of which may be self inflected.

Regards
Brian King

[Steve]

then it's probably time she was!

Things like this happen all the time, mistakes made, lessons learned.
One thing for sure the OP won't be sharing anything with us again as he has now been accuse of being a bully then practically a rapist. Then again 'sharing' is vastly over rated!
Tez, is there value in sharing something with people who aren't willing to give you honest feedback? I think that the slippery slope to rape is out of line, but I stand by my original assessment of what happened. I haven't read anything by the OP to suggest that my initial intuition about what happened was off base.

I don't think it's a huge deal, but I do think that the OP needs to accept responsibility for HIS part in escalating the situation. I also think that he should consider that there are things he could have done to help his "friend" learn the same lessons without resorting to violence.

Was his "friend" at least partially culpable? Sure. But she's not here. She's not posting on a public board looking for insight. He is. As a result, I'm providing feedback to him on my opinions about his behavior. The way I see it, talking to him about HER behavior amounts to gossip and hearsay and doesn't do anybody any good. If she decides at some point to join us, we can (IMO) at that time get into her actions.

[Svart]

A lot of you seem to be taking this as the OP knew she would quite severely injure herself. What USUALLY happens when someone punches you in the arm or such? If they put their weight behind it they might sprain their wrist a little and itll be better in a few hours.
The OP wasnt telling her to do a backflip over a moving car knowing that she couldnt actually do a back flip, OR jump over a moving piece of a metal.
Hell, Ive punched a bulldozer while messing around and only skinned knuckles. Ive thrown bad punches and hurt my wrist a little. THIS is what he was most likely expecting, something that would be fine in an hour or so, not more permenant. I mean really, the scale of damage she actually did is quite rare.
Your friend kicks a rock like a ball. What happens? They stub their toe and swear. One out of *insert random large number here* times, they will damage the ligaments in their knee or have their organs replaced with cans of tuna.
What happened was a bit of a freak accident. Unfortunate, but not something that the OP expected.

[Tez3]

I'm British we don't do sharing, we have to know each other for forty years before we get beyond discussing the weather, I kid you not.
We met an American couple a while back and within half an hour of knowing them we knew everything about them and their family including all the tragic bits, we were horrified tbh.
I get hurt all the time in training, it's not a big deal. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
I don't think she was hurt because her well meaning friend thought he was teaching her a lesson, she was hurt because he didn't duck when she punched him and she hurt herself, tough! One of our guys threw a punch the other guy moved and the lad who punched dislocated his shoulder, she could have done the same.
You may think I'm hard hearted, I'm not but I live and work with the British military who have an expression .......sympathy comes between s**t and syphilis in the dictionary. (will have to wait and see if that makes it past the censor lol) They endure suffering, mutiliation and death as well as fear daily out in the sandy regions so it's unlikely that any of us will feel for someone who punched someone and hurt their hand etc. Sorry but we're not known for having the stiff upper lip for nothing lol!

[ChingChuan]

What happened was a bit of a freak accident. Unfortunate, but not something that the OP expected.

Yep, I agree. Accidents do happen! Of course, we could berate the OP for not stopping her - but she started it, he just didn't do anything to stop her. She chose to try and hit him, he didn't force her to do that, did he? (so the rape analogy is a bit offensive to me - rape is always done by force, while the OP let something happen to himself).

[Tez3]

I have to say I think the rape remark was bang out of order.

[Touch Of Death]

So, you've caused permanent injury to someone, because you wanted them to see how unskilled they were? Well, that's ****ing brilliant. Good job. Good thing it wasn't someone claiming they could fight off a rapist. I doubt the cops would believe the "I had to rape her because she said she could fight off a rapist and I had to prove her wrong, because I cared about her" bit. Some people, sheesh.
I didn't strike her. Chill out.
Sean

[Touch Of Death]

On the "then it's probably time she was!" part, I agree.

However I disagree with "Things like this happen all the time, mistakes made, lessons learned. ". How would you feel if you were the one hurt because your "well meaning" friend decided to show you the error of your ways? Should your instructor dislocate something on you as a correction? Break something? There are better ways, and any competent instructor will know that. Then again, is "The Trash Heap" a trained instructor, or just a student who aspires towards such "greatness"? I'm too lazy to look. :lol:

On the rest, no I didn't accuse him of being a rapist. I made a comparison to the logic of his statement. RIF!We test the logic of our motion all the time. She is the one who wanted to hit me. She was not a student until that moment. There is no comparing letting someone hit you to rape. You are out of line with that logic. The snowball effect is a falacy.
Sean

[The Last Legionary]

Sorry, too busy chilling to continue here. As you can tell, I'm turning Smurf Nut Blue.
:rofl:

[Touch Of Death]

Sorry, too busy chilling to continue here. As you can tell, I'm turning Smurf Nut Blue.
:rofl:Oh, by all means, defend your position. Logic is on your side.
LOL
Sean

[The Last Legionary]

Oh, by all means, defend your position. Logic is on your side.
LOL
Sean
Depends on the amount of cervesa I've had. LOL!

[shihansmurf]

Sorry, too busy chilling to continue here. As you can tell, I'm turning Smurf Nut Blue.
:rofl:

Have you been peeking?

Mark

[Steve]

I'm British we don't do sharing, we have to know each other for forty years before we get beyond discussing the weather, I kid you not.
We met an American couple a while back and within half an hour of knowing them we knew everything about them and their family including all the tragic bits, we were horrified tbh.
I get hurt all the time in training, it's not a big deal. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
I don't think she was hurt because her well meaning friend thought he was teaching her a lesson, she was hurt because he didn't duck when she punched him and she hurt herself, tough! One of our guys threw a punch the other guy moved and the lad who punched dislocated his shoulder, she could have done the same.
You may think I'm hard hearted, I'm not but I live and work with the British military who have an expression .......sympathy comes between s**t and syphilis in the dictionary. (will have to wait and see if that makes it past the censor lol) They endure suffering, mutiliation and death as well as fear daily out in the sandy regions so it's unlikely that any of us will feel for someone who punched someone and hurt their hand etc. Sorry but we're not known for having the stiff upper lip for nothing lol!Tez, I have become friendly with many people in the UK and have never had a person repeatedly misinterpret my posts as you have. It's like you've decided to bicker with me and look for fault or offense where there is none. I'm confident, in spite of your continued lessons on British culture, that it has nothing to do with your being a Brit and my being an American.

For example, I'm not sure why you keyed on the word "sharing" as you did. I had to go back and look at my post to see what I might have written that would agitate you so severely. I still, frankly, don't get it. I wasn't suggesting that we all have a hug and cry it out. By sharing, I meant posting... anything. Believe me, I'm as appalled by the thought of a group hug as you seem to be.

EDIT: I went back and looked and I think you're the one who actually used the term "sharing." I was using it so that it would be clear what I was responding to. You said something about the OP not being likely to share anything with us again. My response being that if he were sharing with us and we lied to him, what's the point?

As for the rest, I have never said that the lady in this anecdote is without fault. Again, as plainly as I can say it, the OP needs to accept responsibility for HIS part in escalating (or failing to diffuse) the situation, which I believe is at least as significant as hers. While she was being annoying and rude, his behavior (in his own words) were equally so and I'm not surprised at the outcome.

[thardey]

How hard did she throw this punch? Did she throw it with all her weight behind it? Has she thrown punches before?

Typically, when someone strikes another object with a bare fist for the first time, they don't go whole hog on the thing - if they have punched things before, they realize that if you do it wrong, it hurts!

I've been in this situation before, with nothing coming of it -- usually I turn my left shoulder to them, give it a flex, and let them hit! They feel the solidness of the impact, feel a little sting, and then are open to instruction. Nobody's ever hurt themselves, because nobody's been stupid enough to hit me that hard without knowing what they're doing.

Stevebjj, to be honest, what turned me off from your first post was the sarcasm. It was neither helpful, nor instructive. (Which I responded to.) After the first post, you've made some really good points, but it's hard to separate them from the feeling I got from the first post of kicking ToD while he was "offloading" or sharing. You don't do that in an AA meeting, or a Anger Management class, that kind of sarcasm is counter-productive. Unfortunately that clouded the effectiveness of your later posts. Fortunately, ToD seems to have been able to take your points for what they were, and learned from them.

[Steve]

Stevebjj, to be honest, what turned me off from your first post was the sarcasm. It was neither helpful, nor instructive. (Which I responded to.) After the first post, you've made some really good points, but it's hard to separate them from the feeling I got from the first post of kicking ToD while he was "offloading" or sharing. You don't do that in an AA meeting, or a Anger Management class, that kind of sarcasm is counter-productive. Unfortunately that clouded the effectiveness of your later posts. Fortunately, ToD seems to have been able to take your points for what they were, and learned from them.Fair enough. For whatever it might be worse, my initial post was less about sarcasm than incredulity.

As for the "offloading" or sharing thing, I said this in my last couple of posts, but I'll give anyone my honest opinion. As far as I'm concerned, why post on a public forum if you aren't interested in hearing points of view different from your own? I can admit when I'm wrong and have no problems with it, and I respect that there are people who disagree with me. It's okay. I don't mind. But as far as I'm concerned, don't as questions you aren't prepared to have answered. The original question by the OP was, "Should I have let it go so far?" The answer from me is unequivocably, "No, and then some."

Edit to add that I don't usually get into side discussions like the one with Tez, but in this case I feel as though she is repeatedly misunderstanding my posts, and so I'm trying to explain my position. In looking back, it may seem like I'm trying to beat up on the OP, but I'm not. I don't think this is all that big a deal, really. I just think that he should feel more than "a little bad." Ultimately, he should feel responsible, because he could surely have handled it better, so that it didn't go so far.

[Sukerkin]

I think you've done a very good job of expanding and explaining your position, Steve.

It's very easy to get things turned around and misinterpreted in textural communication. Something can be said that a voice inflection or an eyebrow tweak can utterly change the meaning of - with words on a screen much is lost.

We've all been misinterpreted at one time or another, sometimes badly. If it becomes a problem, PM's or e-mails are an excellent way to iron out 'creased' communiques as you can take your time and go into greater detail. Trying to do it 'in thread' often either fails or creates even greater problems - 'public' positions are harder to modify than private ones in every arena.

[seninoniwashi]

Honesty does not have to be guilty or apologized for.

regards
Brian King

Brian, I think that's one of the truist thing I've read on these boards!
Nice one :asian:

[Tez3]

Stevebjj, you've taken the fact I answered one of your points by quoting your post to mean that I was talking to you exclusively, I wasn't.
The sharing comment wasn't addressed to you. It was my opinion of the whole thing.

[Touch Of Death]

How hard did she throw this punch? Did she throw it with all her weight behind it? Has she thrown punches before?

Typically, when someone strikes another object with a bare fist for the first time, they don't go whole hog on the thing - if they have punched things before, they realize that if you do it wrong, it hurts!

I've been in this situation before, with nothing coming of it -- usually I turn my left shoulder to them, give it a flex, and let them hit! They feel the solidness of the impact, feel a little sting, and then are open to instruction. Nobody's ever hurt themselves, because nobody's been stupid enough to hit me that hard without knowing what they're doing.

Stevebjj, to be honest, what turned me off from your first post was the sarcasm. It was neither helpful, nor instructive. (Which I responded to.) After the first post, you've made some really good points, but it's hard to separate them from the feeling I got from the first post of kicking ToD while he was "offloading" or sharing. You don't do that in an AA meeting, or a Anger Management class, that kind of sarcasm is counter-productive. Unfortunately that clouded the effectiveness of your later posts. Fortunately, ToD seems to have been able to take your points for what they were, and learned from them.
Not hard at all really. And she did hurt her hand a little but that only lasted a few days. I later taught her a little trick on preventing injury by anchoring up through the center and hitting with the heel palm for now.

Sean

[thardey]

Not hard at all really. And she did hurt her hand a little but that only lasted a few days. I later taught her a little trick on preventing injury by anchoring up through the center and hitting with the heel palm for now.

Sean

That is odd that she hurt herself that badly. By "tennis elbow" I assume that to mean a pulled tendon?

Where did the punch land on your body?
(Now I'm asking so that this doesn't happen to me!)

[Tez3]

Tennis elbow is ...http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/tennis_elbow.html#2

[Steve]

Stevebjj, you've taken the fact I answered one of your points by quoting your post to mean that I was talking to you exclusively, I wasn't.
The sharing comment wasn't addressed to you. It was my opinion of the whole thing.Okay. I give up. It's all me. It was a freakish combination of coincidence and my imagination. My fault entirely. :banghead:

As for the rest, the only thing I'm unclear on is how she ended up with a repetitive stress injury from one punch. How many times did she end up hitting you?

Do you think your friend would be interested in coming here and providing her side of the story? I think that would go a long way to filling in some of the holes in the story, or at least provide an alternative perspective.

[kwaichang]

I feel kind of bad, but I have this female friend whom was throwing fake punches at me. I ignored the fients and continued with what I was saying to our other friend. She asked why I wasn't even flinching and I thought about it and explained that I somehow could tell that by the way she moved, I did not sense a threat. Later over a game of chess it came up that she felt she was capable of hurting me. With no bragging intended, I told her she would hurt herself before she ever hurt me. She demanded I up to feel the wrath of her punch; so, I did. She has been to the doctor twice since the incident.

I feel bad but, I felt she really needed to know, given her line of work, which is both security and bartending. Should I have let it go so far?
Sean
The way you lay it out, you couldn't have responded any other way. You tried to tell her verbally and she didn't believe; so physical is what she had to have to show her her dangerous belief.
http://park1.wakwak.com/~hisamaro/1anijyu1.gif

[allenjp]

Depends on the amount of cervesa I've had. LOL!

Ummmm, that's cerveZa. Your Spanish ignorace is showing lol!!!

[allenjp]

You know, I've had a similar situation to this with a female friend of mine. She took a couple of months of Krav Maga with a very questionable instructor who seemed more interested in handing out belts so he could charge belt testing fees than actually training anyone (I know this because I had my son learning Okinawan Karate with him for about a year).

Aaaaanywho...she on occasion has sworn up and down that she could really hurt me if she wanted to. My reaction has always been to laugh and shake my head and say "OK". She has never actually demanded that I spar with her or anythng to that effect, but I'm not quite sure how I would handle it if she did.

My initial reaction is to think that I would spar with her, but take it easy and just tell her where she is exposing herself to attack or injury, maybe teach her a thing or two. But I really don't know if that would be truly feasible. I mean after all, if she is trying to prove she could really hurt me, she may really try to hurt me. I would really feel stupid if I allowed MYSELF to be injured like that.

I think I would probably end up taking her down and either pinning her or applying a submission just enough for her to feel the strain but not really injure her.

Anyway I think it's hard for anyone to judge that situation unless they've actually been in it.

[kwaichang]

Ummmm, that's cerveZa. Your Spanish ignorace is showing lol!!!

it isn't spelled with a capital "Z"

unless you've had mucho!!

[kwaichang]

. I would really feel stupid if I allowed MYSELF to be injured like that.

I think I would probably end up taking her down and either pinning her or applying a submission just enough for her to feel the strain but not really injure her.

Anyway I think it's hard for anyone to judge that situation unless they've actually been in it.

I had a few similar situations and the best one was when the guy did try to attack me from the side as I was talking to someone, I sent a straight fisted punch towards his face and blew his hair out of his eyes, without hitting him and kept up my conversation. He never tried it again.

[Svart]

As for the rest, the only thing I'm unclear on is how she ended up with a repetitive stress injury from one punch. How many times did she end up hitting you?



Tendon damage can occur after a single incident, such as lifting something very heavy, causing a tear in the tendon.
http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/tennis_elbow.html#2

[Tez3]

Perhaps it wasn't tennis elbow as such? people tend to call all injuries to the elbow that for want of an easily described phrase.
Steve my posts really weren't aimed at you honestly and I apologise if you thought they were. I thought you'd just get the point I was making not think the whole thing was aimed at you.

[Touch Of Death]

That is odd that she hurt herself that badly. By "tennis elbow" I assume that to mean a pulled tendon?

Where did the punch land on your body?
(Now I'm asking so that this doesn't happen to me!)Her first shot was right to the pubic bone, but I asked her to bring it up a knotch. After that I accepted two more shots to the belly. I just tensed that spot.

sean

PS I did not react with pain when hit in the pubic bone. One of my pet peves is someone making a Broadway production on a close call.

[Touch Of Death]

Okay. I give up. It's all me. It was a freakish combination of coincidence and my imagination. My fault entirely. :banghead:

As for the rest, the only thing I'm unclear on is how she ended up with a repetitive stress injury from one punch. How many times did she end up hitting you?

Do you think your friend would be interested in coming here and providing her side of the story? I think that would go a long way to filling in some of the holes in the story, or at least provide an alternative perspective.Her Doctor described it as Tennis Elbow. You are welcome to call it something else.
Sean

[kwaichang]

sounds like she over extended her arm thus locking the elbow, much like in tennis, thus the diagnosis matched a condition well recognized.

[Darth F.Takeda]

You have a point, but She does posture in public quite frequently. I just wanted her to know what would actually happen were she to land a punch. My point, to any and all, is that if you don't know how to punch, don't. You could hurt yourself.
Sean

Better she learned this way and not acting like Bennta Badass to someone who does not care, or worse she thinks she is a BA and gets into a fight and gets seriously hurt and maybe violated as well.

[Touch Of Death]

sounds like she over extended her arm thus locking the elbow, much like in tennis, thus the diagnosis matched a condition well recognized.Nope, she was close. Her elbow winged out and all her body weight went into and out the elbow. I felt fine.
sean

[kwaichang]

ah, ha! She jammed it.

[Bodhisattva]

I feel kind of bad, but I have this female friend whom was throwing fake punches at me. I ignored the fients and continued with what I was saying to our other friend. She asked why I wasn't even flinching and I thought about it and explained that I somehow could tell that by the way she moved, I did not sense a threat. Later over a game of chess it came up that she felt she was capable of hurting me. With no bragging intended, I told her she would hurt herself before she ever hurt me. She demanded I up to feel the wrath of her punch; so, I did. She has been to the doctor twice since the incident.

I feel bad but, I felt she really needed to know, given her line of work, which is both security and bartending. Should I have let it go so far?
Sean

Weird post.

[Sukerkin]

I have no wish to be critical but I'm puzzled as to how you might think that such a dismissive reply might be helpful?

A person is, without question, entitled to their opinion.

It is, however, beholden upon someone taking part in what is essentially an intermittent conversation, via an emotional-context-deficient medium, to be a touch more expressive of what they mean than a 'drive by' that appears more snipe than anything else.

[Touch Of Death]

Weird post.Thank you. I try to keep it interesting.
Sean

[Tames D]

Thank you. I try to keep it interesting.
Sean
Is it a true story?http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Touch Of Death]

Is it a true story?http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gifOn my honor.
Sean