opinions of cold steel japanese swords

[jarrod]

http://www.coldsteel.com/

i realize these aren't super duper authentic traditional katana, but if you want a sword for under a grand that cuts well & won't break easily, are these a good buy? what is the general opinion?

thanks,

jf

[Brian R. VanCise]

From everyone I have heard that has one they all comment that they are very beefy. That is that they are very heavy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[nitflegal]

It's been years since I handled one, so perhaps they've improved, but I wasn't impressed when I tried one. The balance was slightly off, the handle interior had compressed pretty quickly (so the tang wobbled in the handle), and the blade edge was prone to chipping. They weren't terrible and to be fair at the time they were about as good as you were going to get for under a grand for cutting. Nowadays however there are a lot of good basic cutters out there for under a grand. Although the handle design is way off from traditional Angus Trim's tactical katana series is outstanding for tamegishiri. I believe that you can get it with a more traditional tsuba and tsuka as well. Some of the Paul Chen/Hanwei stuff in the mid-range feels pretty good as well. There's a local guy who makes very nice feeling traditional stuff who is releasing swords that are more utilitarian for under a grand that are designed to be long-term cutters as well.

If you go to swordforum.com there are multiple threads from experienced test-cutters for recommendations for good cost-effective cutting blades. Be aware that if you're studying with a sensei you should check what the style's blade specifications are. A lot of the traditional arts have recommended kissaki lengths and styles, sori dimensions, etc. It would suck to spend several hundred dollars on a sword that threw off your taijutsu in the style.

Matt

[MarkBarlow]

I've done tameshigiri with a couple of them. The ones I tried had decent balance but I've got to agree with Brian, they seemed heavier than necessary. All in all, I think they're a good deal.

[Sukerkin]

The 'general' opinion is always going to be difficult to pin down, Jarrod as peoples views are going to be tempered (yeah, sword-based pun attack :D!) by what they want it for and what their background is.

Some of their output has a terrible reputation but the ones I've heard horror stories about have been European style blades (made in India :() rather than the Eastern style blades (made in China).

Their returns policy on the other hand has a very good reputation; so if you get a duff one then they'll replace it without hassle it seems.

Because these are factory produced katana-clones, it will inevitably be the case that the quality is not going to be fabulous but may well be good enough.

What sort of money are you planning on spending? The golden rule is always to buy the best that you can afford and if your budget doesn't yet reach a certain 'height' then wait until it does.

Here's a site about Cold Steel that seems relatively unbiased from a quick perusal:

http://www.sword-manufacturers-guide.com/cold-steel-swords.html

Here's a link to a company I would recommend you consider if you would like the real thing rather than a copy:

http://www.tozandoshop.com/category_s/41.htm

EDIT: Just to elaborate on Nitflegal's good advice above, SFI is down for maintenance at present and wont be back up until Monday.

[Ahriman]

I've handled CS katanas and am not really crazy about them especially as I like European stuff far more. They are far better made compared to CS's Euro line (uh-oh, never buy a messer or a bastard there unless you can modify it), but I felt some movement of the tang. If you want a Japanese styled sword with great cutting ability with little care to authenticity I recommend Gus Trim even as AFAIK he only makes the tac-kat.
Or visit me and I'll turn out something looking like a katana with very good cutting ability and durability at about 500 USD. (just kidding - I'm sure you can find the same quality there at about the same cost. You should seek out a not-so-mainstream maker, their quality is usually good without the monster prices at the cost of some lack in authenticity)

[nitflegal]

From everyone I have heard that has one they all comment that they are very beefy. That is that they are very heavy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

That tracks with the ones I've played with. Thing is, they were point heavy more than anything else. I don't mind a thicker and heavier sword for test-cutting but the balance point on the CS swords (again, the ones that I've handled at least) is too far forward. I suspect that it's to make cutting easier, which is fine so far as it goes, but it's not supposed to be a machete. It's going to train you in a different technique to some extent.

The best way I can describe it is that it felt dead and slow in my hand. I've used heavier swords, both Japanese and European, that were heavier but felt much livelier in my hands due to the balance and handle construction. I prefer those.

Matt

[jarrod]

[quote=Sukerkin;1019920]

What sort of money are you planning on spending? The golden rule is always to buy the best that you can afford and if your budget doesn't yet reach a certain 'height' then wait until it does.

[quote]

always good advice, whatever the purchase. i'm not in a particular hurry to purchase a sword, since presently i'm just dabbling in kendo & will probably do iaido once i move next year. my wife would have a seizure if i spent $1000 on a sword. $500 is probably more realistic.

[jonpalombi]

Greetings All,
As a spin-off forge from Huanuo Sword Arts (Fred Chen and the boys), there can really be little question about the quality of these Japanese-styled cutting swords. They are tough. However, there are 3 primary problems with them. overall. :knight2:
First, they are made by Chinese smiths whose understanding of JSA is largely limited to imitating other Chinese forges (like Paul Chen's Hanwei Forge) and samurai movies. Not to imply there has not been an extensive effort by Hanwei to research Japanese techniques and aesthetics. Paul' Chen's son is currently apprenticing in Japan, under a Master smith. I assume Fred Chen's people have done their homework as well. Even so, there is still the translation from one culture to the next and I do believe something gets lost in the sauce. Let's face it, we buy Chinese katanas, like these, because we can afford them. We can afford them because they are forged in China, not in Japan. I believe they would be better swords if the details were supervised by a qualified Japanese consultant.

Secondly, they are too heavy and the balance is just plain weird. Now, Huanuo, and Last Legend are much better designed and balanced. They are all either Fred Chen's production or spin-offs from his factories. So is Dynasty Forge, although I like them much better. I simply do not know why these other brands vary in design, from label to label. Huanuo and Last Legend are the best, in my opinion. "Blah, blah, blah..."

Thirdly, there seems to be some confusion on the part of the Cold Steel design team, about genuine historic Japanese swords. They have an odd cluster of shinken types. I own the O'katana. I got it for $250.00 because I wanted to see how it cut tatami. It is absurdly massive and poorly balanced. Very tip-heavy. I would hardly risk my life taking one of these monsters to the battlefield (were I living in a time when that might likely happen, that is). One would simply struggle with the awkward mass of it, while fighting in the specific style one had spent years training in to survive, in a real combat situation. Yes, I am familiar with the nodachi but they were the exception, not the rule. It might be a good executioner's sword but that's not really an avenue I would choose to pursue. And as far as chopping wood, I already have an axe. The Chisakatana is also quite unrealistic. As far as I know, kokotanas weren't 1/2" thick and the same weight as a standard katana. Their swords are not authentic in this and some other traditional ways. Hanwei seem better in this regard but there is much room for improvement. You get what you pay for, so it's kind of a balancing act. Unfortunately, only rich folks can afford the best and most correctly smithed cutting skinken. Thus, the Chinese alternatives...


Just my two cents worth, Jon Palombi :yoda:

[Brian R. VanCise]

[quote=Sukerkin;1019920]

What sort of money are you planning on spending? The golden rule is always to buy the best that you can afford and if your budget doesn't yet reach a certain 'height' then wait until it does.

[quote]

always good advice, whatever the purchase. i'm not in a particular hurry to purchase a sword, since presently i'm just dabbling in kendo & will probably do iaido once i move next year. my wife would have a seizure if i spent $1000 on a sword. $500 is probably more realistic.

Maybe a good iaito then is in your budget while you wait down the road for a shinken. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[nitflegal]

[quote=jarrod;1020273][quote=Sukerkin;1019920]

What sort of money are you planning on spending? The golden rule is always to buy the best that you can afford and if your budget doesn't yet reach a certain 'height' then wait until it does.



Maybe a good iaito then is in your budget while you wait down the road for a shinken. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

One thing that Hanwei does very nicely is in their unsharpened steel training sword. I really dislike the standard "whippy" aluminum training iaito for kenjutsu training and much prefer blunted steel. For ~$130 on eBay you can get one of those and they hold up to some pretty energetic practice very well. It's not a good fit for actual iaido unless you're a fan of repetitive-motion injury due to the increased weight but as a training tool for kenjustu I'm certainly a fan.

Matt

[Sukerkin]

I largely concur with that, nitflegal but would add that you do get what you pay for and my Hon Jidai Koshirae from Tozando is not at all 'whippy', unlike some of the lower end iaito (even the base level Tozando ones have a fair amount of 'kipper' genes in them :D).

Sadly, as far as I can tell, they don't make the model any more. I shall have to research their current lines to see what the equivalent is - essentially anything that they say is recommended for Dan grades will be fine if others want to have a look before I get the chance.

Also, a great proportion of the cheap steel iaito that aren't monstrously tip-heavy have their balance point too near the hilt besides being too weighty - when it comes down to it, if you're serious about Japanese swordsmanship then you need to be looking at a mid-to-high end sword made in the country from which the art originated.

Weight is not always bad of course, it depends on the individual. For example, the shinken I mentioned before that is owned by a fellow student is too light for me, despite being otherwise superb.

If it was easy, everyone would do it :D.

[Flying Crane]

Could you guys please explain what is an Iaito and a Shinken?

thanks!

[Charles Mahan]

A shinken, at least as the term is being used here, refers to a sharp blade made of steel. An Iaito, again as the term is being used here, refers to a dull blade usually made of a zinc aluminum alloy. Iaito and shinken look almost identical from a distance of about 5 feet. More or less the same fittings, same size, usually close to the same weight, although shinken do come in weights far greater than iaito are usually available in.

Iaito are used extensively in Iai arts as an introductory sword which allows newer students to push the envelope a bit without worrying so much about maiming injuries. After a few years, length of time depends on the style and instructor, the student is expected to switch to a shinken. There are finer points of iai that you really need a shinken to work on.

[Flying Crane]

A shinken, at least as the term is being used here, refers to a sharp blade made of steel. An Iaito, again as the term is being used here, refers to a dull blade usually made of a zinc aluminum alloy. Iaito and shinken look almost identical from a distance of about 5 feet. More or less the same fittings, same size, usually close to the same weight, although shinken do come in weights far greater than iaito are usually available in.

Iaito are used extensively in Iai arts as an introductory sword which allows newer students to push the envelope a bit without worrying so much about maiming injuries. After a few years, length of time depends on the style and instructor, the student is expected to switch to a shinken. There are finer points of iai that you really need a shinken to work on.


So is the definition of a Shinken, sort of on the lines of a "real weapon"?, or is there something else that differentiates a Shinken from a real katana?

Can a Chinese-made weapon be a shinken, even if it is a katana clone?

[Sukerkin]

:D Now you step near a perilous can of worms, FC :lol:

A shinken is a real sword as you surmised but not all real swords are considered nihonto, which is the term for a genuine katana (it literally means 'Japanese Sword').

Oops, the missus is here to give me a lift home from work - back later ... {scampers}

Back at home ...

A good quality iaito will replicate the weight and balance of a shinken more closely than a cheaper one (which are the 'kippery' ones referred to above). My iaito was marketed as being near perfect in that regard which was why it was expensive - that and being shipped from Japan :eek:.

Some talk of sharpened iaito cropped up around the end of the 90's (as best I can tell) but that is really an oxymoron. By definition an Iaito is an unsharpened practise blade (steel or alloy) whilst a shinken is 'live'.

[Brian R. VanCise]

:D Now you step near a perilous can of worms, FC :lol:

A shinken is a real sword as you surmised but not all real swords are considered nihonto, which is the term for a genuine katana (it literaly means 'Japanese Sword').

Oops, the missus is here to give me a lift home from work - back later ... {scampers}

Flying Crane personally my experience with fittings, blades, etc. including nihongi iaito and shinken is that you get in many ways what you pay for. I cannot tell you how many times I have picked up a sword made in China or from somewhere else and immediately felt that something was lost in translation. My experience tells me that if I want something of worth down the road that I need to have guidance and be willing to spend a little bit more. The last iaito I had made came from an excellent Japanese source who was referenced to me by one of my iaido teacher's and cross referenced through a Japan based Budo Taijutsu practitioner. In that I was extremely fortunate. I have in the past purchased a few cheap iaito and guess what they were really cheap compared to the Japanese made iaito. I also went down the same road with my shinken even to the point of meeting the Japanese maker and I could not be happier.

My point is that if you are looking for something of quality then take time and know that you may have to pay a little more but in the end that will be worth it. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

Now back to the Cold Steel Katana...... All I can say is that other people I know say it is BEEFY!

[Sukerkin]

Almost everyone I know has been down the road of increasing quality when it comes to their swords. We've all spent a lot more than we needed to by buying 'cheap' only to find that the blades really were cheap with sub-par fittings and terrible balance.

I heartily advise that you buy as high up the scale as you can reach - £300-400 will get you something good that you can use for many years.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Almost everyone I know has been down the road of increasing quality when it comes to their swords. We've all spent a lot more than we needed to by buying 'cheap' only to find that the blades really were cheap with sub-par fittings and terrible balance.

I heartily advise that you buy as high up the scale as you can reach - £300-400 will get you something good that you can use for many years.

I am also of this belief as in the end if you go this route Sukerkin and I will have saved you some money and grief. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Flying Crane]

I appreciate the words of wisdom gentlemen, and I am definitely of the mind that I am willing to pay more for something that I know with confidence is better quality. I hate poor quality stuff, and if the tradeoff is to buy cheap just to have something, vs. not buying until I can afford something high quality or even not at all, then I choose to not buy. I hate having "fakes" lying around. Especially when it comes to swords. I just don't see the point (no pun intented).

Truth be told, I have no real need to have a katana style weapon at all, other then personal interest and an affinity for such things. I'm not in a position to do any serious training with it, so it would really just be something for my collection. And from the information I've gleaned from the various threads right now, I'm seeing the bigger picture more clearly and feel much better informed, and thereby much more skeptical of the items that are readily available if I chose to purchase one. I was sceptical to begin with, and you guys have helped reinforce my skepticism. I suspect the pieces that are available to me right here in San Francisco's Chinatown may be a decent value FOR THE MONEY, but are low enough that even so, they probably have some real problems. "Value for the money" doesn't necessarily mean "good value".

I appreciate all the guidance you guys have given.

[Flying Crane]

You guys who have affordable, but quality shinken, who is the maker?

[hogstooth]

http://www.coldsteel.com/

i realize these aren't super duper authentic traditional katana, but if you want a sword for under a grand that cuts well & won't break easily, are these a good buy? what is the general opinion?

thanks,

jf

They are not very well balanced. But yes they do cut.

[nitflegal]

I largely concur with that, nitflegal but would add that you do get what you pay for and my Hon Jidai Koshirae from Tozando is not at all 'whippy', unlike some of the lower end iaito (even the base level Tozando ones have a fair amount of 'kipper' genes in them :D).

Sadly, as far as I can tell, they don't make the model any more. I shall have to research their current lines to see what the equivalent is - essentially anything that they say is recommended for Dan grades will be fine if others want to have a look before I get the chance.

Also, a great proportion of the cheap steel iaito that aren't monstrously tip-heavy have their balance point too near the hilt besides being too weighty - when it comes down to it, if you're serious about Japanese swordsmanship then you need to be looking at a mid-to-high end sword made in the country from which the art originated.

Weight is not always bad of course, it depends on the individual. For example, the shinken I mentioned before that is owned by a fellow student is too light for me, despite being otherwise superb.

If it was easy, everyone would do it :D.

Can't argue with anything that you wrote. I think a lot of it is that you truly do get what you pay for. I still don't own a katana at this point because it just doesn't make sense to purchase one before I can afford a first-rate one. For training tools, I do think that a steel sword gives very different feedback than a bokken or aluminum iaito. I could be completely imagining it but even the thicker iaito that don't resemble rubber bands just feel off to me. That said, I have a cheapy aluminum iaito as they can give great feedback on proper cutting dynamics; if your cut is anything but dead straight the thing starts twisting in your hand as the blades whips about.

I have to admit, the balance of the Hanwei blunt steel katana does feel decent to me. Not great and not especially lively but for an entry level practice tool it's a pretty good deal, IMHO.

Matt

[jonpalombi]

So is the definition of a Shinken, sort of on the lines of a "real weapon"?, or is there something else that differentiates a Shinken from a real katana?

Can a Chinese-made weapon be a shinken, even if it is a katana clone?

Hey Michael,
Shinken are katana/ "real weapons", insofar as their ability to cut and/or kill (a tatami mat or a living opponent). Both iaito and shinken are katanas, yet, do they resemble historic examples closely enough to be considered authentic? Are they forged in the same traditional manner? Your point is well taken. Based on my own limited experience with antique katanas, and I've been around the block, contemporary examples do closely mirror their genuine prototypes. Especially those made in Japan. Now this is of primary significance, only fools and madmen choose to exercise cutting practice with antique swords, for a number of reasons. Fortunately, historical Japan left many superior examples of swords/swordsmanship and philosophy. This sets a definite parameter. As far as Chinese katanas and to their validity, I have left my backyard littered with tatami shards in their wake. Is the lofty status of katana only to be applied to swords made in Japan? There are quality cutting swords being forged in Korea and China, these days. How they hold-up in comparison to their Japanese counterparts is the vital question. Some day I hope to procure a Japanese-made shinken (when I can afford to). Until then, I practice as I can, with what I have at hand.

Later, Jon Palombi

[Charles Mahan]

You guys who have affordable, but quality shinken, who is the maker?

I don't know if you would call it affordable or not. I purchased my shinken from Scott Irey sensei in 2003. He got it from Swordstore and mounted an antique tsuba on it. Cost me about $1800. This sword is clearly from a different smith than whoever is making their current line. Mine weighs about 950 grams or so. Last time one of our students ordered from Swordstore and specified a maximum weight of around 1000 grams, the one that was delivered was well over 1300 grams. It happened to more than one student, so I reckon they don't carry anything lighter. Of course we haven't ordered anything from them in a couple of years, so perhaps it is different now. Hard to say.

A couple of students have recently ordered swords from Mugendo Budogu and they've been suitable training weapons
http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page19.html

You should seek further opinions if you are looking for something to do tameshigiri with, but it is suitable for regular iai training. Assuming you are suitable for regular iai training with a shinken that is.

While it is true that a lot of subpar shinken are coming out of China, there are a few places where you can get some pretty decent training tools. Mugendo Budogu is one, Kim Taylor's Seidokai site is another. As always, it helps to have access to credible reviews.

[Ninjamom]

From everyone I have heard that has one they all comment that they are very beefy. That is that they are very heavy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif
This is what I have heard, too. In fact, I have heard them described as "Like cutting with an axe", and as "A repetitive-use shoulder injury looking for a place to happen."


..... they are too heavy and the balance is just plain weird. ....absurdly massive and poorly balanced. Very tip-heavy. ....... And as far as chopping wood, I already have an axe. .....
>
>
You get what you pay for, so it's kind of a balancing act. Unfortunately, only rich folks can afford the best and most correctly smithed cutting skinken. Thus, the Chinese alternatives...


Just my two cents worth, Jon Palombi
And a very good two-cents worth, sir! :asian:

[jonpalombi]

Hey Ninjamom,
Say, do Haedong Gumdo practitioners strictly adhere to cutting with Korean-forged jingum or is it acceptable to use Japanese-style shinken? And if so, how are the many forges in China, offering katanas at affordable price-points (like Hanwei, Huanuo, Last Legend, Dynasty Forge and Cold Steel), viewed by the HDGD folks and even the KSA community at large? Don't get me wrong, I love the jingum promoted by Martial Art Swords. I just have a tough time setting that kind of money aside for another cutting sword (these days). Once upon a time it was within my grasp. Once upon a time... Sorry, I digress. Of course, you get what you pay for. For those of you who haven't checked-out their website; http://www.martialartswords.com/index.php?cPath=2_13

Another question I am wondering about is this, do any contemporary schools of Korean swordsmanship use pre-JSA styled sabers? You know, like the single-handed gum Bruce Sims is often referring to, God bless him. Certainly by the time Japan was invading Korea (1592-1597), warriors like Admiral Yi Soon Shin carried two-handed gum. While the martial-mechanics illustrated in the Muye Dobo Tongji show both single and double-handed methods of swordsmanship, the sword being illustrated is a two-handed, Japanese-influenced saber. Much like the contemporary jingum. Also, is a kagum the same thing as a Japanese iaito? Do Korean schools practice solo sword-drawing, like unto Japanese iaido? Sorry about the 20 questions, after all, we are supposed to be critiquing Cold Steel cutting swords. So where was I? Oh yes, and I still say Hanwei, Last Legend and Huanuo/Dynasty Forge are much better investments. That is, for Chinese versions of Japanese katanas. Anyone out there have any suggestions for Japanese shinken? How do they perform/out-perform the Chinese knock-offs? Has someone had any experience with Both Japanese and Chinese cutters? Or even better, Japanese, Chinese and/or Korean cutters?

Be well and practice often, Jon Palombi

[Ninjamom]

Hey, Jon!

I responded to your questions as best as I could on a new thread here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1022943&postcount=1) so as not to derail the current thread.

Good to see you in the neighborhood!

[krieger]

My friend has a pair of CS swords which he adores. I do agree that they are more on the heavy side but I figured that came from the thickness of the blade.

Does anyone have any experience with these swords:

http://www.handmadesword.com/152-3.html

I got that particular set for graduation and have been left wondering if it was real or fake. I took it apart and to my satisfaction it was full tang. However, I still don't know if the quality is good. It's not very sharp either (even though I was warned it was D:) But it says the edge unsharpened...I just need to get it sharp then. Now, I'm not 100% sure if they purchased the sword directly from this sight but it's the same set.

[Sukerkin]

Going by what I can see on the website, they'll be okay for use as a cheap, rather heavy, iaito; altho' I clearly can't speak as to their feel or balance.

It does seem that they are not meant to be sharpened and given that they are made of an unspecified stainless steel alloy I certainly would not recommend doing any cutting with them (stainless being prone to shattering when used for sword blades).

Compare their product to something like:

http://www.tozandoshop.com/Tozando_Custom_Workshop_Iaito_p/070-it999.htm

or

http://www.jidai.jp/1052003.asp

[Aikicomp]

My friend has a pair of CS swords which he adores. I do agree that they are more on the heavy side but I figured that came from the thickness of the blade.

Does anyone have any experience with these swords:

http://www.handmadesword.com/152-3.html

I got that particular set for graduation and have been left wondering if it was real or fake. I took it apart and to my satisfaction it was full tang. However, I still don't know if the quality is good. It's not very sharp either (even though I was warned it was D:) But it says the edge unsharpened...I just need to get it sharp then. Now, I'm not 100% sure if they purchased the sword directly from this sight but it's the same set.

What you got was an Iaito which means it is dull for practice purposes and should not be sharpened. It's stainless (therefore brittle do not cut with it it may shatter), blade length would be OK for me (I'm 5'8") maybe a bit short, blade weight is 2.5 lbs not to heavy.

Are you studying Iaido or did you get it to have it so to speak. I can not remember what you said you wanted it for.

Michael