TKD is not flying-jumping and spining kicks

[Manny]

I little older and a a little smarter. A few nights ago I asked myself why an over weight 40 years man do TKD, TKD is a dinamic MA where high spining jumping kicks are required to be a good practicioner/aprentice.

I can't jump, I can't do flying flashing kicks, I can do spining kicks, however from a mature man way of view or thinking, jumping flying or performing three kicks in a row in a flying pattern is not crucial.

My combo of good kicks are the front kick, the roundhouse kick, the back kick, the spining back kick, the axe kick and in some ways (need to improve it) the hook kick, all these kicks can be devastating if perfomed well without the jumping/flying moves. My punches are good even I have to restric them to chest,stomach,ribs,solar plexus but know that a good hook to the jaw of my oponent can knocked out or maybe a rapid jab can cut the foe.

Every time I see a video of koreans doing amaizing kicks I wish I could do them too but then I realice I'm not a flexible teen, with the speed to perform those kicks.

For these matters I tend to focus my kicksc to the mid section, my siping back kick can be devastating, my front kick to the plexus can do harm, a round house to the ribs can crushed them.

High kicks?? well I have to practice more, the ax kicks is good, however the hook kick and the round house kicks to the head it's a little harder to me.

I love to trow my mid section kicks repertory coupled with punches ohhhh yessssss.


Manny

[newGuy12]

my spinning back kick can be devastating

This is very good.

[terryl965]

Flash is for demo's, low powerful kicks are for S.D. so you are practicing S.D. congrats and those mid level kick win alot more often then people think at tournaments.

[Manny]

It's true, a high kick to head if not performed well the BG can grab it and knock one's to the floor, but a spining back kick is very hard to block and the blow is so hard that the BG will fly tothe floor, a good front kick to the groin or even the blader must to hurt a lot and a shin trougth the ribs can do a lot of damage.

Mi interest in TKD is to know how to defend myself, I'm not interested in how many cemet blocks I can break, not interested in how high I can kick, no sir my interest is to understand the principles of SD/MA and how to combine the blocks/dodges/locks/punches/kicks for disrupt an oponent.

Yes I know I can't kick high but this not take my sleep away, the youngers with good coordination,strength,stamina and a lot of lexibility and control can jump like leopards, I'm like a bear but weavere of the bear!!!

Manny

[Empty Hands]

...but a spining back kick is very hard to block...

Hard to block perhaps, but not hard to avoid. It is a fairly slow kick, and if you are telegraphing or you haven't set up your opponent, you will get charged and pounded when you start your spin.

[Kacey]

Spinning, jumping, and flying kicks are part of TKD, true - but they are not a very big part, except, as Terry said, in demonstrations. Yes, all students are required to learn them - but age, size, weight, physical condition, injuries, etc., will impact a person's ability to perform them, and such concerns should be considered by the instructor when teaching them and during testings. There are a few turning/spinning kicks I might use, should an appropriate opening arise, in self-defense, but in general, I would not use spinning or jumping/flying kicks in self-defense.

[tshadowchaser]

Spinning, jumping, and flying kicks are part of TKD, true - but they are not a very big part,

Then why is it that most of the time when you see a TKD student outside of the school he/she will be doing one of these kicks most of the time if they are practicing
not trying to start a warhere but lets face it that is what most people see TKD people practicing

[terryl965]

Then why is it that most of the time when you see a TKD student outside of the school he/she will be doing one of these kicks most of the time if they are practicing
not trying to start a warhere but lets face it that is what most people see TKD people practicing


Because it looks alot better than someone showing off a kick to the outer thigh. Flash is precieved as being what is the root of TKD, people are like awe look that gay or girl can really kick, hell my own son does all those kicks just to impress people but he knows that flash is for shows and demo's the meat and potatoes of TKD is the S.D principle we work on everyday. I hope that helps.

[tshadowchaser]

I know I was just trying to rile some people up :)

I think Manny has a good approach to what he is studying and a good perception of what he will be able to do and use if he ever needs to defend himself with TKD.
Keep to the basics they are what made the art in the beginning and what every study should practice more than the fancy stuff

[terryl965]

I know I was just trying to rile some people up :)

I think Manny has a good approach to what he is studying and a good perception of what he will be able to do and use if he ever needs to defend himself with TKD.
Keep to the basics they are what made the art in the beginning and what every study should practice more than the fancy stuff

Sir I knew you knew but was just doing my part here on MT and that is filling that void called actual posting with information about something that somebody could actually understand that was not in the last person thread where all the post whores hang out. Man say that five times fast with a mouth full of ice cream.:asian:

[DojangMom]

Oh, I don't know. I saw video of one of my instructors in a tournament where he performed a jumping back kick that knocked his opponent flat on his rear. I was impressed ... but, then again, at this stage of my MA training, it really doesn't take much to impress me. :D

[JadeDragon3]

Mi interest in TKD is to know how to defend myself, I'm not interested in how many cemet blocks I can break, not interested in how high I can kick, no sir my interest is to understand the principles of SD/MA and how to combine the blocks/dodges/locks/punches/kicks for disrupt an oponent.
Manny

Then your in the wrong martial art. TKD is more sport oriented then self defense oriented. All the flashy kicks are impractical for street fighting. Leaves you to vulnerable to groin strikes.

[terryl965]

Then your in the wrong martial art. TKD is more sport oriented then self defense oriented. All the flashy kicks are impractical for street fighting. Leaves you to vulnerable to groin strikes.

Please do not speak of which you do not know. TKD is not all about sport, there are still plenty of S.D, principle TKD schools out there. Why does everyone generlized TKD. Alot of Martial Art have the sport side to it, like Karate, Kung-Fu, Wushu, BJJ, MMA and the rest of them. TKD can stand up to all arts in the form of S.D. if you are witht he right instructor.

[JadeDragon3]

TKD can stand up to all arts in the form of S.D. if you are witht he right instructor.

What does S.D. mean?

[JadeDragon3]

Every TKD school that I have seen ephasizes high kicks to the head that leaves your groin open for attack or your base leg vulnerable for a sweep. Yes, kung fu can be sport oriented to but IMO kung fu is better suited for self defense because it is about 60% hand technique and 40% kicking where as if I were guessing TKD is 80% kicks and 20% hand tech.

[FearlessFreep]

What does S.D. mean?

Self Defense

[Kacey]

Please do not speak of which you do not know. TKD is not all about sport, there are still plenty of S.D, principle TKD schools out there. Why does everyone generlized TKD. Alot of Martial Art have the sport side to it, like Karate, Kung-Fu, Wushu, BJJ, MMA and the rest of them. TKD can stand up to all arts in the form of S.D. if you are witht he right instructor.


Every TKD school that I have seen ephasizes high kicks to the head that leaves your groin open for attack or your base leg vulnerable for a sweep. Yes, kung fu can be sport oriented to but IMO kung fu is better suited for self defense because it is about 60% hand technique and 40% kicking where as if I were guessing TKD is 80% kicks and 20% hand tech.

No one is disputing that that's what you've seen - however, those of us who train and teach TKD differently than that are disputing the generalization you've made from what you've seen. Do I teach my students to kick to the head? Yes... and I also teach them to kick to the knees. It's all about what's open at the time. Would I kick to the head in a SD situation? Not unless the person's head was below my hips - and I know how to get him there.... and I teach my students that too.

Browse through the TKD forum, and you'll see numerous discussion of just this issue; we're not trying to rag on you - just point out that our experiences are different than yours.

[terryl965]

Every TKD school that I have seen ephasizes high kicks to the head that leaves your groin open for attack or your base leg vulnerable for a sweep. Yes, kung fu can be sport oriented to but IMO kung fu is better suited for self defense because it is about 60% hand technique and 40% kicking where as if I were guessing TKD is 80% kicks and 20% hand tech.

No at my school and my instructor it is about a 50/50 split, there are those of us that have been here longer then the sport.

[terryl965]

Self Defense


Thnak you

[JadeDragon3]

So tell me a little bit about TKD such as blocking method. Is it circular blocking or more power vs. power when blocking? What does your forms look like are they linear or do they go in all directions? I think if I'm not mistaken that TSD is more linear.

[bowser666]

I am not a TKD practitioner but I have to ask a question. Everytiem I go to a tournament or watch videos on TKD why do students 90% of the time have no hands up for blocking ? Everytime I see it my jaw drops. Can someone explain that to me. I have seen many many , tournaments, videos etc..... Its very consistent that there is almost no guard.

[JadeDragon3]

I am not a TKD practitioner but I have to ask a question. Everytiem I go to a tournament or watch videos on TKD why do students 90% of the time have no hands up for blocking ? Everytime I see it my jaw drops. Can someone explain that to me. I have seen many many , tournaments, videos etc..... Its very consistent that there is almost no guard.

Maybe its because at all the TKD tournament that I have seen they do not allow striking to the facial area. Why protect it if you know your not going to get hit there. Have you ever heard of Eric Moberly? He is supposed to be some really good TKD teacher. He is head of some organization that promotes instructors to master level. Anyways, he is supposed to be the youngest person to ever achieve the title Master. He lives here in the same town as me.

[FearlessFreep]

I am not a TKD practitioner but I have to ask a question. Everytiem I go to a tournament or watch videos on TKD why do students 90% of the time have no hands up for blocking ? Everytime I see it my jaw drops. Can someone explain that to me. I have seen many many , tournaments, videos etc..... Its very consistent that there is almost no guard.

In WTF (olympic) rules sparring there are not allowed hand techniques to the head so the habit is to drop the hands in attempt to bait the opponent to try to kick there (to set up a counter).

(Also, hands will often drop on certain kicks as a counter-weight for balance)

Possibly with the new rules come out to encourage more offense and less counter-fighting, this may change.

This is only for that rule set. Point Sparring allows hand techniques to the face so the approach and strategy is much different. Also, schools that take SD seriously practice blocks/counters to punches to the face so again, the approach is different (but since this is not part of tournaments, you don't see it publicly much)

[bowser666]

Maybe its because at all the TKD tournament that I have seen they do not allow striking to the facial area. Why protect it if you know your not going to get hit there. Have you ever heard of Eric Moberly? He is supposed to be some really good TKD teacher. He is head of some organization that promotes instructors to master level. Anyways, he is supposed to be the youngest person to ever achieve the title Master. He lives here in the same town as me.


I am not sure about the rules but I do know that they allow kicks to the head. But no hand strikes ? I find that odd. I thought that maybe it had something to do with the rules set but as I don't spar TKD I am unaware, so my apologies if I sound uninformed.

[FearlessFreep]

So tell me a little bit about TKD such as blocking method. Is it circular blocking or more power vs. power when blocking? What does your forms look like are they linear or do they go in all directions? I think if I'm not mistaken that TSD is more linear.

Blocking tends to be hard-linear. The TKD philosophy is, roughly, that a block is a strike to the opposing weapon. How that is done varies but our school works from an approach to move offline to avoid the strike power, but also to move inward to strike near the joint (such as striking the bicep or shoulder rather than the forearm... and the upper thigh rather than the shin).

TKD schools with a Hapkido influence will also use circular blocking.

This is very generalized and schools vary

[Kacey]

I am not a TKD practitioner but I have to ask a question. Everytiem I go to a tournament or watch videos on TKD why do students 90% of the time have no hands up for blocking ? Everytime I see it my jaw drops. Can someone explain that to me. I have seen many many , tournaments, videos etc..... Its very consistent that there is almost no guard.

Olympic style sparring allows kicks to the head, but not hand strikes; people leave their hands down to try to trick people into head kicks, as a set up for counter strikes.

Other variations have different rules, and therefore different habits; we allow strikes of all types to the head, and we all keep our hands up.

[terryl965]

Maybe its because at all the TKD tournament that I have seen they do not allow striking to the facial area. Why protect it if you know your not going to get hit there. Have you ever heard of Eric Moberly? He is supposed to be some really good TKD teacher. He is head of some organization that promotes instructors to master level. Anyways, he is supposed to be the youngest person to ever achieve the title Master. He lives here in the same town as me.

Sorry never heard of him and if he is KKW type of instructor he can't be they have age limits per there own organization. Sorry KKW stands for the Kukkiwon.

[terryl965]

So tell me a little bit about TKD such as blocking method. Is it circular blocking or more power vs. power when blocking? What does your forms look like are they linear or do they go in all directions? I think if I'm not mistaken that TSD is more linear.

Actually in sport sparring Olympic they really never block they evade and counter. Traditionally they way I learned we also never blocked because each block is consider a strike to deliver as much pain as possible.

[FearlessFreep]

Sorry never heard of him and if he is KKW type of instructor he can't be they have age limits per there own organization. Sorry KKW stands for the Kukkiwon.

ATA

from the archive...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59219

[terryl965]

ATA

from the archive...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59219


Thanks FF so know I understand

[Manny]

Well I know with the right aproach TKD can be a very good self defense tool, in order to kick to the head we must to be pretty fast and catch our foe with offset guard, this is dificult to do when you are fighting for your life. In the worst scenario kicks to the midsection and below are the key and hands to the midsection to above is the key however, bites, eye pocking,troat crushings are smart things to do.

If a BG can't see you you have the advantage, if a BG can't breath you have the edge, if a BG can't walk he cant follow you.

Offcourse a good roundhouse kick to the jaw can end the fight in seconds but you have to very skillfull to perform that kick in the heat of the fight.

The way I perform a spining back kick is when my oponent goes for em that's wehn I sping and trust my heel in his midsection, yes timing is important, the other way I use the spining back kick is afther a roundhouse kick for example.

One evening I was doing light sparring with a youngster using the chest protectors, it was light sparring when I went for the guy he spin and trust me (lightly) his heel on my chest and I felt a sting, it was a light kick but he concentrate the power in the heel so I felt the sting, next day I had a bruise and was light sparring!!!!

TKD is a very good sport, as judo,as karate, etc, but TKD can be very efective in the streets all depends on the aproach.

Manny

[Flynn_]

Then your in the wrong martial art. TKD is more sport oriented then self defense oriented. All the flashy kicks are impractical for street fighting. Leaves you to vulnerable to groin strikes.
Yet another person talking about something they don't know. Why is it all the people who don't actually do T.K.D. claim that it is more of a sport and not very effective for self defense etc. Maybe that is W.T.F. style but not I.T.F. style which most people seem to know nothing about. Someone would think a martial artist like yourself would be all honourable and humble and not speak about what they don't know. I have been shocked by the "know it all" type of comments left by martial artists who don't even practice Taekwondo on this board. Edit: Just to add, ofcourse Taekwondo is effective in self defense. It is a martial art and self defense is an essential part of that. Lots of techniques can be utilised effectively in a self defense situation and it has throws, locks and releases just like most martial arts do. I can only imagine people are thinking of W.T.F. style when they say "It is the wrong art for self defense" and "it is more sport orientated". What nonsense, coming from people who don't even train in Taekwondo.

[JadeDragon3]

Yet another person talking about something they don't know. Why is it all the people who don't actually do T.K.D. claim that it is more of a sport and not very effective for self defense etc. Maybe that is W.T.F. style but not I.T.F. style which most people seem to know nothing about. Someone would think a martial artist like yourself would be all honourable and humble and not speak about what they don't know. I have been shocked by the "know it all" type of comments left by martial artists who don't even practice Taekwondo on this board.

I have seen a lot of TKD stylist from both ITF & WTA & American Tae Kwon Do Association. All the TKD I've seen looked pretty usless for real fighting. Heck, TKD wasn't invented untill like the 1940's or 50's for the soldiers in the Korean war. I personally know the youngest man ever to recieve the title of master. His name is Eric Moberly. He lives here in Lexington Kentucky. He traveled to Korea for training. He is now in charge of something to do with promoting people to master here in the U.S. I also have numerous friends that do TKD. Some do ITF and all those other orginizations. I have not been impressed.

[IcemanSK]

I have seen a lot of TKD stylist from both ITF & WTA & American Tae Kwon Do Association. All the TKD I've seen looked pretty usless for real fighting. Heck, TKD wasn't invented untill like the 1940's or 50's for the soldiers in the Korean war. I personally know the youngest man ever to recieve the title of master. His name is Eric Moberly. He lives here in Lexington Kentucky. He traveled to Korea for training. He is now in charge of something to do with promoting people to master here in the U.S. I also have numerous friends that do TKD. Some do ITF and all those other orginizations. I have not been impressed.

Yes, there are schools like that, but you have obviously not seen many of the schools of the instructors on this board. Don't lump all TKD into the things you have seen. Just as you certainly wouldn't want anyone to add your school to the minority of bad stuff in your Art. BTW, your TKD history is sorely lacking.

[JadeDragon3]

Well enlighten me oh great one. Inform me all about TKD and how effective it is in real life (especially since no contact is allowed to the head at tournament and all those high kicks that leave your nuts vulnerable, etc....).

http://www.moberlyskravmaga.com/Instructors.html

This is a link to the TKD school here. Eric Moberly is okay fighter but because he has branched out to other styles. He runs several successful school in Ky.

[Inugami]

Tae Kwon Do my ass, looks more like MMA.

Tae Kwon Do is very good, ANY MARTIAL ART IS VERY GOOD! It really depends on the fighter and what you are taught. JadeDragon3 you're kinda being ignorant.

[KickFest]

all those high kicks that leave your nuts vulnerable, etc....
Let me guess, you're a ground fighter? Have you tried striking someone's groin when they're seriously trying to kick and punch you? It's not as easy as you seem to think.

I will concede that TKD has its problems both politically and as a fighting system (I've complained before about the sparring rules. Neither ITF or WTF are perfect in this regard), but as you can see from members of this board, its practitioners are constantly trying to find ways to better the art. However, to call TKD "pretty useless" is going a bit far IMO.

Perhaps you were referring to this picture?
http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/97/combobreakerkarategq5.th.jpg (http://img359.imageshack.us/my.php?image=combobreakerkarategq5.jpg)


TKD is more sport oriented then self defense oriented
Depends on the school. I have attended both ITF and WTF and neither were sport orientated schools.

It seems from your comments that your knowledge of TKD is somewhat sketchy, but it does highlight the general view of a lot of people these days. TKD is currently the art that everyone likes to bully, and I sincerely hope that one day you see something that will change your mind.

P.S. Wipe the olympics from your mind. That's NOT Taekwondo :soapbox: *grumble grumble*

[KickFest]

ANY MARTIAL ART IS VERY GOOD! It really depends on the fighter and what you are taught. (emphasis added)

This is said so often it's starting to sound like an excuse. The whole "it depends on the fighter" stance is flawed because the fighter you are is dependant on how you train, and what you are taught equates at least partially to the martial art you study! For me this ranks right up alongside the "size doesn't matter" myth.... errr, in martial arts that is ;)

Regardless of how hard I trained, I'm sure there are some styles I (personally) wouldn't be able to beat with TKD. However for street defense against Joe Public and similar striking arts it will do just fine, thanks :)

[Jade Tigress]

ATTENTION ALL USERS

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Super Moderator

[Inugami]

(emphasis added)

This is said so often it's starting to sound like an excuse. The whole "it depends on the fighter" stance is flawed because the fighter you are is dependant on how you train, and what you are taught equates at least partially to the martial art you study! For me this ranks right up alongside the "size doesn't matter" myth.... errr, in martial arts that is ;)

Regardless of how hard I trained, I'm sure there are some styles I (personally) wouldn't be able to beat with TKD. However for street defense against Joe Public and similar striking arts it will do just fine, thanks :)


Uh... some students train harder and grasp things better. Some are naturally born for a martial art or are better fighters.

[tko4u]

I am a younger guy at 22. I will admit I throw my share of flash kicks. Jump spin hook, Jump side into jump spin hook, all those fun things, but if I am sparring, I will usually stick to the basics and just combo them up. :headbangin:

[JadeDragon3]

Tae Kwon Do my ass, looks more like MMA.

Tae Kwon Do is very good, ANY MARTIAL ART IS VERY GOOD! It really depends on the fighter and what you are taught. JadeDragon3 you're kinda being ignorant.

I just calls em' like I sees em'.

That particular TKD school that I posted teaches Krav Maga as well as TKD. Master Eric Moberly has three other schools that teach TKD only. And no you are wrong, ANY martial art is good is just not true. Do you think that capoera(sp?) is good? It's very impractical, almost all the kicks are done from a handstand position. It might be good as far as exercise but for martial combat its very bad.

[tshadowchaser]

TKD as taught in the USA may has changed over the last 40 years. Back in the 1960's sparring in many TKD schools involved heavy contact. If you look at the history of professional "karate" in this country you will see many of the early champions where from TKD.

Sport, Olympic or non Olympic, and being child and family friendly has cause much change over the years but what is taught can be very devastating when taught not as a sport but as a means of survival.

[Sylo]

I enjoy the high flying kicks, and while not effective for SD. Being able to do them, means that my body is in excellent shape. I would never use them in a fight, but being able to perform them could mean that I am in much better condition to win the fight than someone else that can't. Takes alot of conditioning and leg strength to pull off some of those kicks. Imagine how much power my front and side kick would have.

[Inugami]

I just calls em' like I sees em'.

That particular TKD school that I posted teaches Krav Maga as well as TKD. Master Eric Moberly has three other schools that teach TKD only. And no you are wrong, ANY martial art is good is just not true. Do you think that capoera(sp?) is good? It's very impractical, almost all the kicks are done from a handstand position. It might be good as far as exercise but for martial combat its very bad.

wow you're stupid, THATS NOT A MARTIAL ART.

[Twin Fist]

All the TKD I've seen looked pretty usless for real fighting.

You have never seen any TKD from the texas Allen Steen lineage, clearly.

and by the way Hoss, you should be carefull, statements like:
"ANY martial art is good is just not true." show how much you dont know, rather than how much you DO know.

the art doesnt make the fight, the fighter makes the art.

[Sylo]

I really don't think this should have turned into a donnybrook "my art is better... " argument. All martial arts, are made up of some form of kicking/punching. Some of them have added in grappling, and joint/pressure point strikes etc. However, the basis for all of them are very similar. So to say one is completely useless would be false, simply because they are all based on the same principle.

One may not be "as" effective as another, depending on many different variables that one person could never be able to name. What I would like to add is...

TKD does have powerful kicking and punching techniques. TKD does have leg conditioning and strengthening stances.

SD is about being in the best possible surroundings when the situation arises. you can even the odds, by learning a martial art or arts, and by keeping an open mind, and being aware of your surroundings. Many self defense fights are won simply by knowing the surroundings better than your opponent.

TKD helps me to keep a clear mind. There is alot of positive things to learn from it, as with any martial art. I feel confident in my ability to defend myself if the need ever arose. The cool thing is, I don't usually go around looking for fights so TKD works really well for me.

[Empty Hands]

the art doesnt make the fight, the fighter makes the art.

I think the truth is in the middle. The ability of the fighter makes the most important difference, but some arts are more effective than others if the ability of the fighter in each is the same. Other arts are highly effective, but only in very specific circumstances - i.e. the sword arts or to a lesser extent BJJ.

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Brian R. VanCise
MartialTalk Super Moderator

[terryl965]

Tkd is as useful as any other Martial Art if it is tought right. Better known as Texas Karate is one of the toughest styles around if you can find the right instructor. Come on look at all the water down programs and see for yourself. TKD gets the bad rap like Karate did before and in a few years some other art will be the new whipping child.