Some schools will have contracts. Some have rather abusive ones, some none at all save for an insurance waiver. My school has certain stipulations. One is not competing in other tournaments without the permission of our Sabunim, nor attending any other events without their permission. Now, I personally view this as somewhat abusive. My question is, how do others view these restrictions? What other restrictions would be viewed as too heavy?

I see that as a bit intrusive but if it's a sports martial arts school I can imagine them thinking of you as on their "team". As to just attending, well, I don't get that.

I once signed a contract saying I wouldn't open up a martial arts school within a 50 mile radius--I didn't like it but options were scarce and luckily I knew I'd be moving before too long.

Not really worth the paper they are printed on. It's more of a guideline as to what the school expects from you as a student.

Contracts are generally a waste of time, and the worse a school is the larger the contract they want. That way you still keep paying long after you have realized that you are learning anything. The contract is the main tool ofthe Mc Dojo. Waiver's are a nice little psychological tool, it has no real value. It is a legal fact that a waiver no matter how well it is written up doesn't hold up in court.

I know of several schools that make contracts mandatory and they get by on their 40 students because the instructor doesn't have to teach that often. Most people paying are not in the class.

There is a school in my little city that, has people sign a 15 month contract for adults and a 24 month contract for children. You are guaranteed in writing to be a Black Belt by the end of your contract. Surprisingly he he has several 2nd degree Balck Belts running around but on a few 3rd or higher. Your second contract is for 36 months. These people think they know something, even though it is nothing but a sport school. In time they realize how little they know and then find a school that offers some substance.

Contracys are usually evil when it comes to the martial arst. tey are designed to protect the school owner and fleece the student.

I recently signed a 6 mo contract for a bjj school. I've only been around a couple weeks, but I can tell its no McDojo. I'll be psyched if I earn the first color rank (blue belt) before I graduate from grad school in approx. two years.

The limitations of the contract (that I noticed) are:

1. I am not allowed to claim I am a student of the school in a commercial setting.
2. I am limited to an average of 3 classes per week. I could pay more and get more classes, but this is all I have time for due to other commitments.

They will let me break the contract if I am injured or move away.

I don't like the idea of contracts since they only limit me, the consumer. But when a school is the best at what they do in the region you don't let it get in the way.

-Andy

I really don't have many limitations with mine. The only things I'm not allowed to do is go to other tournaments or events without my Sabunim's permission. I'm given unlimited classes, and two private lessons a month. I just don't like that I'm not allowed to attend seminars and stuff like that without permission. Oh well.

Deadhand

That doesn't seem like a bad contract at all. I have always had it that students could not attend tournaments without my permission. I have been around long enough to know who has a good tournament and where they would recieve unfair treatment. And from a business stand point, your instructor has to look at as a hurt studenis usually a n on paying student.

As fro seminars, I always encouraged my students to get more knowledge. I notice you call your instructor Sambunim, what korean style do you study.

If you haven't, I'd ask why? I'm curious on the answer.

My guess is its to help prevent confusion in new students.

:asian:

I study Tae Kwon Do, Ji Do Kwon Style. Umm... I'm wondering if it's a breach of ettiquette or not to say which chain.....

Not in my opinion, but I'm not familiar with TKD, so couldn't say.

Originally posted by deadhand31
I study Tae Kwon Do, Ji Do Kwon Style.

There is a thread in the TKD forum asking about the different styles of TKD. Could you post something there about the history of the Ji Do Kwon style or what distinguishes it from other TKD styles?

Not being allowed to attend seminars seems a bit controlling, but perhaps control of what kind of martial artists he produces is what your instructor wants. This was widely accepted I think for a long time, and cross-training was actively discouraged. The ethos is changing on that however (at least here in the States).

deadhand31 - where are you at in your training? (time you've spent training)?

My -guess- is in most cases, requiring students to not overly expose themselfs to other training at the earlier stages may be intended to prevent confusion. I've got limited cross training in Kenpo, Wing Chung, JKD, Arnis and Tai Chi. I've got to say, it helps you see the similarities, but man, does it get confusing keeping them straight in your head. Its part of why I'm focusing on the Arnis for now. (Still want more sword training...bloody day job) :)

Well, Ji do kwon is more of a militaristic art. While Moo Duk Kwon tends to emphasize keeping the enemy at bay by mostly using kicks, Ji Do Kwon tries to exand on that, by also emphasizing moving in on your opponent, as well as close defense. One problem that my instructor sees in way too many students is practicing Tae Do. Tae means means feet or kicking, Kwon means hands or punching, Do means "Way of". Basically, he sees more people using only half of their natural weapons, their feet.

Oh, by the way, I study at Cho's in Southeastern wisconsin. I'm currently Blue Belt, (7 of 12 on the way of black belt), and I've been training for 13 months.

Not being allowed to compete in other tournaments is fairly reasonable. Not being allowed to attend (not compete in) other tournaments or seminars makes my alarm bells go off. To me, that signifies that they're afraid of losing you to another system/school, which means they aren't confident (conciously or subconciously) in the material they teach. But, that's just my little monkeyboy opinion, which is worth about $.02 (US).

Contracts can be good to help retain students by giving them a reduced rate for committing to a certain period of time. However, the student must be allowed to get out of the contract under certain circumstances (injury, death in the family, work relocation, alien abduction, etc.), and perhaps also have an option to pay some sort of early release fee as another way out of the contract. Other than that, I don't believe a contract should place any other restrictions on the students, especially regarding attendance of tournaments and seminars. Again, I can see disallowing competing in other tournaments, but I don't like disallowing attendance of same.

My instructor, just for poops-n-giggles, signed up for a TKD school while he was stationed here while in the U.S.A.F. He ended up hurting his knee at work pretty badly. Took a letter from a base physician to the guy running the school, basically saying that he shouldn't be goin' around kicking things. Guy wouldn't let my instructor out of the contract. That, my friends, is pure, unadulterated BS.

Now that I think about it (goin' stream of conciousness here, folks...watch out!), there would probably be some stipulations I'd put in the contract. If a student is unable to attend because they've been arrested for a felony involving physical violence, I'd say they are still entitled to pay off the remainder of the contract, but won't be allowed to train (if not in jail) during the contract's duration and is effectively expelled from the school. Maybe have something (as I think was mentioned in this thread) saying that a person can't make money off the school/system until a full teaching certification/rank has been reached (JKD instructors, take note :)). Fighting with other students results in expulsion along with payment of the remainder of the contract. Causing trouble with other schools results in the same punishment. Ideally, these punishments would never have to be enforced.

But I love making people pay for their stupidity :)

Cthulhu
ramblin'

As I said before contracts are tools of evil intent. I have had to sign a contractor two in my time. Luckily they were created by a putz. On the other hand an instructor with a great program still has to protect himself at times. It is the peope who have these warped contracts that get under my skin. Sign it for 5 yrs and you are guaranteed this belt. Before you do something like that go to Century and buy the belt, it ill be just a little cheaper but you won't feel as dirty

Originally posted by Cthulhu
But I love making people pay for their stupidity

On the one hand, yes. On the otehr hand, with no contracts you don't need all thoe clauses--you can cut them off at any time for any reason.

I'm not offended by instructors who use contracts to control their own revenue flow--to provide stability and an ability to plan--within limits.

Rob, your last post reminds me of a story from Moving Zen by C.W. Nicol(sp?). The author went to train in Japan and ended up at a karate (JKA) dojo. He innocently asked how long it would take to earn his black belt, and (possibly due to language problems) the instructor got angry, grabbed a belt from his supply, threw it at the author and told him to leave. Luckily, the matter was settled calmly and all issues were resolved.

If somebody asks me how long it would take to get a black belt, I'd probably reply rather flippantly, "From here? About 20 minutes. Just drive over to so-and-so...". Now, how long it takes to earn a black belt is another matter, and it's a question not easily answered.

But back to the topic, a guarantee of a black belt by the end of a contract is utter crap. If I ever see that in a contract, I know it's a sure bet to leave immediately. That's like guaranteeing (man, that word looks odd) a college degree at the end of a contract. Colleges don't do that (at least the respectable ones don't). If a student doesn't put the work in during their 4/5 years, then they don't get the degree. As far as I'm concerned, a student signs up to learn something, not gain rank. If gaining rank is their primary goal, send them to a CMD school. With enough money, they'll have a black belt in no time.

Cthulhu
a little less grumpy, but grumpy still

Actually I would send them to my worst competitor. That type of student usually eats away at the fabric of a school. If I ever went into a place and I saw it in a contract tat I was guaranteed a rank I would have to becarried out because I was laughing so hard.

First of all, needing "permission" to do anything is ridiculous. I can see asking your students to talk to you about it first so that you can give them your advice, ie - on fair tournaments etc etc but to ask permission? No. I can't go for that.

Second, who is it exactly who has ripped through 7 belts in 13 months? How much are you paying per belt?

Well, like I said before, we test every other month. I don't like it either, in fact even my instructor doesn't like it either. I'd like to see testings every 4 months or more. In fact, starting last promotion, I've begun intentionally opting out of every other testing from now on. If I had gone in to test, I would be High Blue now instead of blue. Most people in my branch of the school system will slow down when they hit red. In all cases, we never test for black until our instructor feels that we're truly ready. Personally, I'd like to see my instructor (Posabunim) run his OWN school. I'm sure that he would actually run it in a less lenient format.

Oh, and testing is $40. Deputy black belt testing is $80, and black belt testing is around $100. It's $200 for first degree testing.

As for guaranteeing black belts, that's stupid. My school doesn't do that, but our contract states that we have a six month minimum, and that there is no maximum time to test for black belt.

Just a side not, here's my school's belt hierarchy: White, High White, Yellow, H/Yellow, Green, H/Green, Blue, H/Blue, Red, H/Red, Deputy Black, Black.

In our school we have a mo. to mo. option, two 6mo. options and two 1yr. options. Of course there are diff. $ for the options. This is because we have some people who choose to pay for a certain length of time in advance. Also, as a business, we need to maintain "fiscal stability" and this helps us to this end. I think whether your a student or an owner makes a difference.

I can't believe schools put black belt guarantees in thier contracts. What a joke I would've walked out if my current sifu had any crap like that. I don't think contracts are really a bad thing since it can prevent hidden costs some instructors might try and pull on the unwary. But to guarantee a black belt in it thats just sad.

Sorry, I was confused as to who was doing what. Thanx for straightening it out.

Contracts at our school are more just to let the students know what is expected from them. The usual contract is for 12 months. Some of us however are part of a group called Black Belt Club, where we are given a little extra attention by Senseii. The aim of this club is to groom us to be the best black belts we can be, not just physically but also spiritually. Our contracts in this club are for 3 years. The good thing is we still only pay the same as what the others pay for 1 year.
The only real stipulation that is made through these contracts is that we train a minimum of 2 classes per week.

--Dave

So you signed a contract that asks you to be financially responsible for a longer period of time but for the same rate as those who decided to sign a contract for a smaller time period?

How much "extra attention" are you getting and of what sort?

Moo -

Where are you teaching, and how many students? I hope everything is going well. Any update on the wife and kids?

I am teaching in Hilliard (suburb of Columbus) Ohio. I think there are about 40-50 students at the present. We just signed on with a management company and are anticipating some growth. Wouldn't that be lovely? My lovely Wife and The Girls (notice the caps.) are great. Sometimes it's fun being the only guy in a sorority. Hey, I can pee sitting down................:lol:
Can I say that here? :D

Originally posted by GouRonin
How much "extra attention" are you getting and of what sort?

Well, lets see, firstly there is at least one extra class a week, sometimes more, we get extra personal pointers during regular classes, where the instructor will correct our stuff before seeing to others. We get more intense education in the use of pressure points in combat. As well as all this, we receive some of the most incredible education in life empowerment skills, you have ever seen. From my own personal experience, this last point would have to be the most valuable of all. Due to these teachings, I have gone from being a bit of a thug, to being someone who gives a s*** about what happens to other people. My missus reckons the changes in me are the only reason we have managed to stay together this long, 12 years next month. She says that if I hadn't changed when I did, she'd have been long gone.
I get the impression from my senseii, that if I were to leave before my contract was up, he would not chase me for the money. I could be wrong, but hey I don't intend leaving any time soon.

Hope this gives some idea of what I get for my bucks.

--Dave


Mod Note - Please don't try to get around the Profanity Filter by using unusual characters. Thank you.

Hate contracts. If I study I expect to pay but dont think Im going to pay if I move to another state or I find the instructor dose not or can nt prvide good instuctuion.
As far as saing you may only go where the instructr says,well sounds like he's afraid you'll see something you like better.
Going to tournments alone May not be the safeest thing for beginers You really should have friends and instructors nearby for the first few years.
Shadow

Moo -

40-50 students! That's pretty good for FMA! Do you have your own space? How many kids? Are you having knife-fighting birthday parties?:p

That's really cool to hear. Does Matt still train with you?

We have knife fighting birthday parties........blind folded. :p
Actually I save the knife stuff 'till I see a certain maturity factor. We teach Modern Arnis and Aikido, seperately. How's the bjj going? I'm still working on pencak silat mande muda, particularly harimau. Fits nicely with alot of the modern arnis stuff.

With interest in Contracts, here's a thread that has some thoughts.

Here is my favorite contract story.

There is an instructor in my city. The guy has been teaching for a very long time, but he has a couple screws loose. I know, because I trained with him for a short time. The night when he punished us with pushups for two hours for no reason, and then started screaming at the voices in his head, was when I stopped going back. But somehow, he has managed to train some fierce people. True story. I'm not making this up.

Anyway, My wife also trained with him, but years after I left and before we met, and she knew people who continued to train with him years after she left. So here is the contract. He decided that he wanted to start training a group of teenagers and young adults who he felt showed promise. So he created a special training group for them, meeting several nights each week for intense workouts. In the meantime, he basically abandoned his class of adults, some of whom were studying with him for years. Everyone who agreed to be part of this group paid for the whole year in advance, non-refundable.

As part of the agreement, the students agreed that they absolutely would not miss a session. If they did, then they had to pay a penalty of something like $25. If they did miss a session, they could appeal their case to a body of their peers, who were pressured by the teacher to deny the plea. A friend of my wife missed a session because the traffic on the bridge after work was clogged due to an accident. She was caught in the traffic and just could not make it. Of course her plea to the board fell on deaf ears.

So these people pay for a year in advance, and they pay again if they don't show up. This guy is a business genious. I should take lessons.

Hey Tess...

Your thread looked like it was going to link to something else...but nada amiga.

On another note...Contracts mainly came about because, Sensei Sokey Pants got tired of running all around God's green dojo looking for the guy that didn't pay but was still coming to classes. They spout lines like, "I'll get ya tomorrow, Sensei..." or "OOOOH! I knew I forgot something." Then there is my favorite, " I was just going to call you about that."

I personally don't like contracts but I understand how they are necessary for some folks who just don't feel like dealing with the BS. I have a friend that teaches in New York that went the other way because he only has about fifty students (he teaches a non-profit program and all the funds just go to paying the rent and bills). He has a sign in register book at the desk when you walk in the door. If you are taking class that day you walk up and sign in. There are three ways to pay. You can pay the ten bucks a class when you walk in the door. You can save some cash if you come alot and pay a reduced tuition for the whole month. (from fifty to sixty-five depending on the number of students he has...the more he has the less everyone pays). Or you can go with a billing company that he has that takes it right out. If you go with the first two, you either pay for the class up front ( for the first option) or pay for the month up front (on the first day in class at the begining of the month). If you don't pay then you don't train.

The whole billing thing is screwy as no one really has a handle on how to do it right. All we can do is keep training and hope for the best,

Regards,
Walt

Hey Walt :)

Nope no link, just reviving this old thread ;)

~Tess