Can you PREDICT your opponent?

[Jenna]

Coucou y’alls :) Is it possible to predict your opponent?

And I am not talking bout FAST REACTION to an existing strike. No, I have been wondering can we forsee a strike in that fraction when the opponent has made their mind to move and but the signal-to-muscle is still en route. I do not mean this in a big mystical way either. Is it possible to anticipate your opponent’s first move or next move just that fraction before he physically moves? Or can we at best react with a great speed? I think there is a difference. And I think an advantage to us exists if prediction of some kind is possible.

Me, I know it is not the same thing and but I can often predict next move in a chess match though only by opponent’s pattern of deployment or by virtue of opponent being a known quantity. I have read Bruce’s Tao of JKD and methods of interception, and but I do find it a little confusing in places. I have maybe a little adeptness with my hand already on an opponent, and it is then just possible to feel the balance change before uke deploys in earnest. I think I am reasonably fast at moving from stance to technique and can close distance or evade with a little speed. And but I cannot properly anticipate a free-standing opponent with no contact between us. React fast, yes. Anticipate, nope not quite. Can you do this? Is this even possible? If so, what are the cues to watch for, particularly:

~ how can you spot a simple jab-type punch before it is thrown?
~ how can you spot a simple front kick or side kick before it launches out?

If that is all rubbish or theoretical, pffft.. then I apologise in advance :) I am just asking. I would be very open to any opinions.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[terryl965]

I believe over time one can fore see what is coming next by body mechanics dueing your time of training. I know I can almost always see it before they throw it but only on certaiain occassion that I am able to beat them to the punch or kick mainly when I feel a sense of damage coming from it.

[stickarts]

you can tell how someone positions their body what their most likely strike(s) will be. For example, someone in a side stance has one set of likely strikes whereas someone standing facing you with toes pointing straight ahead has other techniques that are more likely. I think many of the greatest fighters become very good at reading the opponents body position and what will likely follow.

[Deaf Smith]

If your opponent is very poorly trained they will in many cases telegraph their intentions by body language. This is where experienced fighters 'see' the others moves before they even really start to do them.

The body language, called telegraphing or tells, may be such crude things swinging their arms 'wonder woman' fashon, or dropping their sholders before certian punches, or shifting their hip before doing a sidekick, or, well many other ovious tells.

Other include eye shifting, or holding their breath, hunching shoulders, moving their punching arm backwards before throwing the punch, etc...

Now more subtile ways is to sense when the other guy is imbalanced. When their footwork is out of time and for a second you can see they are about to not have a balances stance (and thus you attack when that occurs.)

Even more subtle ones are like when you can sense their will or their concentration has fallen off. That will lead to slow refleaxes if you attack.

There are many others but yes you can read your opponent if the skill level between opponents is great.

Deaf

[Rich Parsons]

Coucou y’alls :) Is it possible to predict your opponent?

And I am not talking bout FAST REACTION to an existing strike. No, I have been wondering can we forsee a strike in that fraction when the opponent has made their mind to move and but the signal-to-muscle is still en route. I do not mean this in a big mystical way either. Is it possible to anticipate your opponent’s first move or next move just that fraction before he physically moves? Or can we at best react with a great speed? I think there is a difference. And I think an advantage to us exists if prediction of some kind is possible.

Me, I know it is not the same thing and but I can often predict next move in a chess match though only by opponent’s pattern of deployment or by virtue of opponent being a known quantity. I have read Bruce’s Tao of JKD and methods of interception, and but I do find it a little confusing in places. I have maybe a little adeptness with my hand already on an opponent, and it is then just possible to feel the balance change before uke deploys in earnest. I think I am reasonably fast at moving from stance to technique and can close distance or evade with a little speed. And but I cannot properly anticipate a free-standing opponent with no contact between us. React fast, yes. Anticipate, nope not quite. Can you do this? Is this even possible? If so, what are the cues to watch for, particularly:

~ how can you spot a simple jab-type punch before it is thrown?
~ how can you spot a simple front kick or side kick before it launches out?

If that is all rubbish or theoretical, pffft.. then I apologise in advance :) I am just asking. I would be very open to any opinions.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


What is the saying BeetleJiuce three times calls someone? Well here goes. Dan Anderson, Dan Anderson, Dan Anderson, Let us see if he shows up.

I say this as he teaches a sparring seminar to help people "read" the opponent when they face off to spar. It is about body mechanics and understanding what can be done with the weapons at hand.

Now for me, I can many times predict where the opponent will be based upon knowing my open areas. I try to move to cover them, as I expect others to read my openings and to react to them. This is reactive or counter fighting in defense which can lead you to being able to time your counter strike.

[Kacey]

Depends on the opponent. As Deaf said, less-trained or untrained opponents are much more likely to telegraph their movement; more trained opponents are less likely to do so. There are situational factors as well. There's no straight, single answer to this question.

[punisher73]

In simple terms, "yes".

If you look at how your opponent is standing, how he is holding his hands and what he is presenting you will know which body weapons he is most likely to use.

Now, if you take a look at how you are standing what are you presenting as a target to them?

Then it becomes a matter of experience of looking at how the body moves. If they are REALLY going to throw a punch there will be movement prior to that. If they are very good at throwing a technique the movement will be minimal and also the time before the technique is launched/lands will be minimal as well.

The more experience you have the better you can read your opponent.

Although, I think we have all had an experience that we can't consciously explain where "we just knew" beforehand.

[Sukerkin]

In MJER, a great deal of the partner work is specifically targeted on strengthening the abilty to determine the intention of an attacker and reducing the 'signals' you give off about what you're going to do.

It's all part of zanshin and is why it is developed as a general awareness of the person in front of you rather than a strong focus on any one part of them.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Yes. As others have said body langauge is a great indicator.

If it is predicting on probability than it is a math formula.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability

[jarrod]

ok, i'm a little hesitant to tell this story for fear of ridicule, but here goes.

my kickboxing coach is also a high level kung fu & wu style tai chi practitioner. i've never trained kung fu with him but the brief time i spent studying tai chi with him has been very influential.

during tai chi practice, he would often emphasize feeling the "strings" of energy. i.e., as your right hand moves, a string of chi pulls the left one along behind it, as if the left is not moving but following a path. he told me that after quite some time in tai chi, he could feel his opponent's strings "pushing" before they moved. i tend to believe him, because he has amazing defense. (during the last full-contact fight i saw him in, his opponent didn't land a single blow in three rounds. he was 50 years old at the time).

anyway, he has a very powerful, off-tempo straight blast. i'll be sparring with him, next thing i know i feel like a freight train stopped just in front of me. one time we were sparring, & i swear to god i saw a flash of white light come from him. i thought "here it comes" & circled to his off-side just in time to see him go blasting by me. it only happened that one time, but it was enough to give me a very healthy respect for the martial applications of internal training.

[Shotochem]

In simple terms, "yes".

If you look at how your opponent is standing, how he is holding his hands and what he is presenting you will know which body weapons he is most likely to use.

Absolutely, by keeping at a specific angle and distance you can limit the options of your opponent.


Now, if you take a look at how you are standing what are you presenting as a target to them?

Baiting your opponet especially a lesser skilled or untraind one works quite well.

Then it becomes a matter of experience of looking at how the body moves. If they are REALLY going to throw a punch there will be movement prior to that. If they are very good at throwing a technique the movement will be minimal and also the time before the technique is launched/lands will be minimal as well.

The more experience you have the better you can read your opponent.



I can see many things coming at me I still get hit.


Although, I think we have all had an experience that we can't consciously explain where "we just knew" beforehand.

We all get lucky sometimes if we play the percentages.:)

[Jenna]

I believe over time one can fore see what is coming next by body mechanics dueing your time of training. I know I can almost always see it before they throw it but only on certaiain occassion that I am able to beat them to the punch or kick mainly when I feel a sense of damage coming from it.
Hey Terry :) I think it is interesting that you mention an impending "sense of damage". I have definitely become aware of a sharpening of the senses when I feel in most danger. I'm still not sure though about the actual specific body mechanics you mention. I mean, sure some crazy, drunken pub carpark punches have a big flag raised before they are thrown and but if you are faced with one of your TKD guys, in a simple front kick say, what moves first? Does he shift balance? Can you tell from his eyes? I am just intrigued at the possibility of being able to forsee in these terms. Thank you :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Jenna]

you can tell how someone positions their body what their most likely strike(s) will be. For example, someone in a side stance has one set of likely strikes whereas someone standing facing you with toes pointing straight ahead has other techniques that are more likely. I think many of the greatest fighters become very good at reading the opponents body position and what will likely follow.

Hey Frank :) Yes I see that. I see if your opponent is in a certain position then only a subset of his moves can be performed (like chess again). And but still, even if he is presenting his left leading side, he can still throw left or right punch and right kick etc.. What I wonder Frank, is what part of him moves first. What are the cues that he is about to let something loose?
Thank you,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Jenna]

When their footwork is out of time and for a second you can see they are about to not have a balances stance
Hey Deaf Smith :) I found this statement intriguing and maybe if you call in again you would maybe have a little more to add?? Can you really pick up on out of time footwork? Is that possible? I am guessing that takes a lot of dedicated training?? Thank you :)


Now for me, I can many times predict where the opponent will be based upon knowing my open areas.
Hey Rich :) Do you ever deliberately leave areas open (like the chess pawn) hoping to draw your opponent in there? Yes, that is risky, but would help in predicting.. and though it is more of an entrapment scenario I think.. Thank you my friend :)


If they are REALLY going to throw a punch there will be movement prior to that.
Hey punisher73 :) thanks for your input. Can you tell me anything about the specific movements you might expect to see immediately before the punch or kick?? I would be interested to learn these things. Thank you again :)


Yes. As others have said body langauge is a great indicator.

If it is predicting on probability than it is a math formula.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability
Hey JcA :) Thank you for this. I have read a little into kinesiology and kinesics and but again, can you tell me what in particular YOU would look for or expect to see in an opponent once they have decided to move, but have not quite moved.

Though I am avid for my mathematics, I am happy to leave the statistics (they usually only tell me I will lose!) :D Thank you again! You help is most welcome.


he told me that after quite some time in tai chi, he could feel his opponent's strings "pushing" before they moved.
Hey jarrod :) that is a cool retelling. And thank you for it!


It's all part of zanshin and is why it is developed as a general awareness of the person in front of you rather than a strong focus on any one part of them.
Hey Sukerkin my friend :) Do you have a concrete notion of what is meant by "a general awareness"? I am wondering what you would be looking for? I wonder by the time we see the opponent break into his move, did we simply miss the cue that preceded that move? If so, I wonder what was that cue? Can it be spotted prior to the move being made? I know all moves might surely have different prior flinches or whatever that is why I was just wondering about straight non-telegraphed punches or non-flamboyant kicks. Thank you again for your help with this :)

Thank you to all again :) I am endebted as always :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[terryl965]

Hey Terry :) I think it is interesting that you mention an impending "sense of damage". I have definitely become aware of a sharpening of the senses when I feel in most danger. I'm still not sure though about the actual specific body mechanics you mention. I mean, sure some crazy, drunken pub carpark punches have a big flag raised before they are thrown and but if you are faced with one of your TKD guys, in a simple front kick say, what moves first? Does he shift balance? Can you tell from his eyes? I am just intrigued at the possibility of being able to forsee in these terms. Thank you :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


Jenna position and angle of feet and wieght swfting at the hips are some sure tells for TKD people. Your body can only go so many direction and like in Basketball where the hips goes so does the rest of the body. Stand in a normal fighting stance and have apartner throw various kicks and punches at you and see how many time you can predict what is coming by simple body movements, before to long you will see it before they throw it. Try it and get back with me.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Things I look for depend on the situation of course.

If you are fighting someone who is holding a weapon than the chances go up on the probability of the opponent using the knife.

If the person is with a friend chances go up the friend will enter the fight.

All of these are methods of predicting. By noticing defaults or strenghs in an opponent we can predict how he will shield it or use it to his advantage.

[Rich Parsons]

Hey Rich :) Do you ever deliberately leave areas open (like the chess pawn) hoping to draw your opponent in there? Yes, that is risky, but would help in predicting.. and though it is more of an entrapment scenario I think.. Thank you my friend :)

Thank you to all again :) I am endebted as always :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


Jenna,

Yes, I leave myself open all the time. I do it for those I am training with so they can learn to read and take advantage. Once they take advantage I then cover it up and give them something else. To do this is hard, one has to consciously choose to do it and recognize it or it may become a "Bad Habit".

I also use it to bait people. ;)

Thanks

[diamondbar1971]

IMO, i think that being able to predict is an absolute addition to ones personal arsenol, and this will become more obvious as we get older and need to compensate for that little half step we all will eventually lose...

[tshadowchaser]

Is it possible for me to anticipate my opponents moves? YES, but I have been reading body movement for a long time now. Dose that mean I will always be fast enough to avoid the movement? NO, I have gotten older and slower

[Jenna]

Jenna position and angle of feet and wieght swfting at the hips are some sure tells for TKD people. Your body can only go so many direction and like in Basketball where the hips goes so does the rest of the body. Stand in a normal fighting stance and have apartner throw various kicks and punches at you and see how many time you can predict what is coming by simple body movements, before to long you will see it before they throw it. Try it and get back with me.
Hey Terry :) Thank you very much for this. I have tried what you suggested and but I still wonder if the best that can be achieved is a very fast reaction to a punch or kick that is ALREADY out there?? And which is not quite the same as predicting just that moment before it goes. Maybe I just do not have the skill for it. I tried something recently and I wonder have you ever had your training partner fake a move to see if you could predict what he was planning. I found leading-hand jabs impossible to recognise. For other moves I have noticed slight hip movements and was at least able to foresee which side the shot was coming from. Best I seem to be able to do is to have my training partner to fake a move and then manage to point to the correct limb that he was thinking of launching out! And I am at best, 50% accurate. Tell me you can predict more accurately and I will take heart that I am not wasting my time with this... :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Jenna]

Is it possible for me to anticipate my opponents moves? YES, but I have been reading body movement for a long time now. Dose that mean I will always be fast enough to avoid the movement? NO, I have gotten older and slower
Hey tshadowchaser :) Can you tell me at all how you anticipate? how did you learn it and what are you looking for in an opponent ready to strike? Surely if you are able to accurately anticipate at least some of your opponent's moves, you can cover the ground more quickly with your block or evade or counter, than you could otherwise. I think this is fighting smart...
Thank you again :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[terryl965]

Hey Terry :) Thank you very much for this. I have tried what you suggested and but I still wonder if the best that can be achieved is a very fast reaction to a punch or kick that is ALREADY out there?? And which is not quite the same as predicting just that moment before it goes. Maybe I just do not have the skill for it. I tried something recently and I wonder have you ever had your training partner fake a move to see if you could predict what he was planning. I found leading-hand jabs impossible to recognise. For other moves I have noticed slight hip movements and was at least able to foresee which side the shot was coming from. Best I seem to be able to do is to have my training partner to fake a move and then manage to point to the correct limb that he was thinking of launching out! And I am at best, 50% accurate. Tell me you can predict more accurately and I will take heart that I am not wasting my time with this... :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


Jenna I can fore see about 70% of the time what is coming the problem is with age comes wisdom but also comes being slower to re-act, that is why by predicting what can come from the angke of the hips and the position of the feet you are able to be nore accurate is your preditions.

[14 Kempo]

I did not read every post within this thread, so if I'm repeating something, I'm sorry ...

Actions can be predicted, a lot of it comes with experience. However, another way of looking at it is in setting up your opponent by working your guard. Work in quadrants and position your guard as to make one quadrant more attractive than the others. Example, I stand in a fighting stance, left foot forward, however, I lower my left hand guard and raise my right, a reverse guard as we call it in our style. I have just made my upper left quadrant more attractive to my opponent and raised the chances of a strike to that area, I can therefore 'predict' that a strike will come and therefore be prepared to beat or counter that strike. Anyway, it is something that I am working on and it seems to work, it's just that I don't all the time http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Hope that is understandable ...

[tshadowchaser]

Can you tell me at all how you anticipate? how did you learn it and what are you looking for in an opponent ready to strike?

watching the center of the chest while not forcibly focusing on it will let you see from what area the attack is most likely to be generated from. Also know what your opponent likes to do helps. This is good for the school however if on the street always expect the unexpected but still watch the center of the chest to see what body part is moving. That is one of the ways

Moving forward into an attack changes what your opponent dose as his/her first movement was intended to be used with you at a certain distance

[FearlessFreep]

Heck, I can't even predict my own movement

[14 Kempo]

Heck, I can't even predict my own movement

LOL ... so very true for a lot of us!

[Sukerkin]

Hey Sukerkin my friend :) Do you have a concrete notion of what is meant by "a general awareness"? I am wondering what you would be looking for? I wonder by the time we see the opponent break into his move, did we simply miss the cue that preceded that move? If so, I wonder what was that cue? Can it be spotted prior to the move being made? I know all moves might surely have different prior flinches or whatever that is why I was just wondering about straight non-telegraphed punches or non-flamboyant kicks. Thank you again for your help with this :)

Jenna

The best way I can describe it is that you are aware of the whole body in a diffuse focus, rather than either pinpointing your attention on one spot or trying to consciously keep track of several.

The common giveaway for many people, oddly enough, is a tightening of facial expression before they attack, a look of having 'made a decision'. For others, it is a slight inclination forward of the head or the whole body Sometimes this can be as minimal as the shifting of the weight distribution in the feet (something that you can see quite clearly when people are barefoot in the dojo (all hail hakama and tabi :D)).

In the end, this is one of those 'riding a bike' skills. Someone can explain what works for them and tell you what they think they're observing but only practise will reveal what works for yourself.

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Can an opponents movements be read to predict the particular attack that will be thrown? Yes. The fist is the last thing that moves when someone is punching and the foot is the last thing to move in a kick. Experience will teach you this slowly. You can speed this process by study.

1st study yourself from various postures and positions with an opponent in various postures in positions at various angles and distances. What types of movements are free to make from that situation? What movements cannot be done without an adjustment? What adjustments can you make to free your movement?

Now reverse the proccess. Have your opponent assume various postures and positions while you assume different postures and positions at various distances and angles. Study the movements they need to make in order to launch various attacks.

Kata is a really useful tool for both these studies.

More important than trying to predict particular attacks would be learning to see without looking (periphial vision) and moving offline when you see movement while you strike or counter to where the opponent is moving to rather than where they came from.

_Don Flatt

[bowser666]

I always found that sparring is liek poker. Everyone has their tell. Whether it is a eye movement , a shifting of the feet, telegraphing etc..... Looks for shifts in weight from foot to foot, stance changes, alot of fighters will also move a shoulder forward on the same side they are striking with just before they attack. Just look for the telegraphing movements. Most people that have no formal training will telegraph as well. From my experience anyways.

[morph4me]

With proper distance an a diffused focus you can start learning what to look for, the weight shifts, the difference in tension, the shoulder and hip movementsetc. When you get more comfortable and begin recognizing what's happening, distance becomes less of an factor, because you react sooner.

Diffuse focus would be the same kind of focus you have when you drive a car, you don't stare at the bumper of the car in front of you, you keep your gaze diffused so you can see what's going on around you, see when the cars ahead are braking, etc.

Add an invitation to "attack me here" and you can accurately predict the attack most of the time.

[Jenna]

Thank you all again :)

I maybe should have said my art is Aikido and my style is not primarily striking. I am happy to defend and counter a full-power, direct attack. Yet I would like even better if I could extract another little advantage by predicting those strikes. I have done this once or twice, but more in luck than in spotting the opponent's flinch or his "giveaway" as I think of it. And but I am certain it can be done.

I am happy to "See the whole tree but watch for the apples falling" as one of my first senseis would have suggested and this I think is the diffuse focus morph4me and Sukerkin, you both have mentioned. And but within that, I am trying to pick up the cues that a strike event is about to happen. Telegraphing is very helpful but seldom happens (to me at least) with an adept opponent.

Likewise, "Predicting by probabilities" as I would call it, I see as either being aware of the subset of possible moves the opponent can make as 14Kempo you mentioned, OR leaving an open door for him to to enter at as Rich P has said (though this can be SO risky for me anyways). And I think by these we give ourselves shorter odds in the bet. Still, I would call this a pseudo-prediction and not the full monty :)

browser666 mentioned "shifts in weight from foot to foot, stance changes, alot of fighters will also move a shoulder forward on the same side they are striking with just before they attack" and these are the kind of specifics that I would like to understand. Not for every move there is, but for simple front punch and front or side kick. What are the body cues? Does anyone know the body mechanics of it?? I have tried to observe, and but until the strike is out, I cannot tell what went before.. Ah, I am probably not explaining too well..

Anyways, thank you all most sincerely for taking the time and for your patience as I take myself all round the houses trying to build the phrasing for what is in my head :) Yes, air mostly, ha!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Hawke]

Hey Jenna,

You got some good advise on predicting your opponent's movements.

"See the whole tree but watch for the apples falling" is a phrase I have not heard in ages. In Kenpo (EPAK) we call it white dot/black dot focus. An old Chinese saying is "see nothing to see everything."

Where do you focus? The eyes? The chest? The hips? A soft unfocused gaze around the middle of the chest to see the shoulders and hips has worked for me, but may be a different position for you.

Keeping your distance is good as others have mentioned to give you more time to react. There may be times when you want to move first and not play the "who has the faster reflex game." So predicting your opponent will be a big help.

Ever heard of grooming gestures? A person may wipe, scratch, look away before they launch an attack (this is more real life than sparring).

When watching an opponent move think of a bullwhip. Ages ago an aikido instructor Terry Dobson did a seminar with a bullwhip. The last part to hit/snap is the tip but the power generating from the whip came from the body (feet, hip, shoulders). Same goes for punches and kicks. The fist is last to hit, but the power started in the body. When you see the signs you know a fist is about to fly out.

Some signs to look for:
drop in height
dip in shoulder

Others have already mentioned the eyes telegraphing, weight shifts, and direction of the hips.

Speaking of weight shifts, a nice time to close the gap and strike is in the middle of the opponent's weight shift or stance change.

Hope this helps a little.

[Sukerkin]

Some nice, concise, phrasings above for how this 'feels' :tup:. Before now, I've described it in a pseudo-zen way:

See everything; focus on nothing.

I've always liked that and it's very similar to Hawke's but I reckon the 'tree' analogy might have the edge on us :D.

[shihansmurf]

White dot/Black dot focus in kenpo is a good way to visualize the concept of awareness.

Overall I find that the more I train and the more familiar I grow with a given fighter, the more I learn the way that he/she telegraphs their movements. That's about as close as I can get to predicting anything. If I were good at "predicting" things I would spend a lot more time in Las Vegas.:)

I still drop my right shoulder a bit before I throw a straight punch. I'm starting to accept that I'll never quite get it out of my system but I have gotten pretty good at hiding it.

Mark

[Rich Parsons]

Thank you all again :)

Likewise, "Predicting by probabilities" as I would call it, I see as either being aware of the subset of possible moves the opponent can make as 14Kempo you mentioned, OR leaving an open door for him to to enter at as Rich P has said (though this can be SO risky for me anyways). And I think by these we give ourselves shorter odds in the bet. Still, I would call this a pseudo-prediction and not the full monty :)


Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


Jenna,

I would be embarrassed by the full monty. ;) I never said I was the best, only offering information that was not yeah I do that also. :D

But I see your point(s) and acknowledge them as points of concern or consideration.

Thanks

[Kosho Gakkusei]

A relevant quote from the skski website (http://www.skski.net/kempo.html).



The Kosho Shorei Ryu Bujutsu (martial arts) are based on the study of the preparatory arts. This life-study occurs 24 hours a day, and is the most important aspect of Kosho Shorei, True Self-defense. The preparatory arts teach the Kempo-ka to control his environment in a way that inhibits conflict from taking place. In this way, he is able to live in harmony with his environment and the people in it. The preparatory arts allow students to structure themselves such that they effectively prevent self-generation of what we call negative stimuli. This element of control allows one to eliminate self-conflict.
Negative stimuli are any use of our psycho-physical systems which are less than 100% efficient in the resolution of the specific situational conflict we are within. For example, we all have two forms of vision: peripheral and tunnel vision. Kosho Shorei Kempo Bujutsuka, who study the natural truths or laws pertaining to the martial arts primarily, understand this, and its significance. By studying themselves and their systems of functionality, they are most effectively able to use their skills and attributes in any situation. The significance of understanding visual modes is great: Our eyes send nerve impulses to the brain to allow us to perceive and react to environmental stimuli. The cones, which are cells on the retina responsible for perceiving form and color, are greater in number in the center of the retina than on the periphery. Therefore, when we look directly at something, much more detail is perceived, sent to the brain, and processed. This takes time. Tunnel vision makes relatively quick reaction impossible due to the volume of information we ask our brain to process in this mode. Tunnel vision should be used when we want to intently study something. Peripheral vision, on the other hand, was designed for detecting motion. The smaller number of cones on our retina's periphery do not pass along as much information pertaining to color, depth-perception, subtle shading and toning of objects. What we receive is simply where objects in our environment are, and where they are going. The brain then calculates speed and other factors that allow us to deal with our environment. The understanding of peripheral vision's benefits, and specific ancient methods of employing this understanding in a self-defense situation is one of Kosho Ryu's fundamental studies. The additional understanding of posturing, weightedness from left to right leg, hearing and visual ranges, and other factors create quite a large bit of preparation students of Kosho Ryu can use to control an opponent. However, these factors are used mostly in the physical arts, which are the lowest levels of Kosho Ryu Bujutsu.
True Kosho Shorei happens in the mind. Perception of a potential attacker's intent, based upon things such as his demeanor, flesh and eye-white color, degree of apparent excitement or agitation, tone of voice, body language, verbal expression, and of course his words and gestures all help us determine his situation, including his weaknesses. Kosho Ryu teaches you apply this, along with your understanding of your own psychology, in order to better understand yourself as well. We cannot understand attackers until we understand ourselves. Perception of ourselves is not only important for self-diagnosis and self improvement, but also to understand how an attacker might perceive us, and therefore what he might do.

This is the art of seeing without looking.
_Don Flatt

[tshadowchaser]

You are receiving some great information and ideas on how to predict your opponent, however remember that all of what has been said takes practice. None of those who do these things where able to do them correctly or constantly the first time they tried.
Like everything else in the arts it takes time and practice and discipline to do these things

[terryl965]

You are receiving some great information and ideas on how to predict your opponent, however remember that all of what has been said takes practice. None of those who do these things where able to do them correctly or constantly the first time they tried.
Like everything else in the arts it takes time and practice and discipline to do these things


You are absolutely correct it take alot of time to get anywhere with predicting, anticipating or actually seeing it before it happens by certain movements.

[Jenna]

You are receiving some great information and ideas on how to predict your opponent, however remember that all of what has been said takes practice. None of those who do these things where able to do them correctly or constantly the first time they tried.
Like everything else in the arts it takes time and practice and discipline to do these things
Hey tshadowchaser :) Yes of course, this is true and I agree completely. And but I think there is another aspect that I have noticed and I wonder would you or anyone have a comment. When I am in happy randori with another aikidoka, I can predict their movement with a decent accuracy and with no great worry. I like to take myself around people and places though and have found when I face players from other arts KF, JJ and TKD for example, I have no notion what to look for IN TERMS OF PREDICTION. I can still defend to best of my ability and but zero chance of prediction. Zero for me.

I do try to spread my wings and see other arts and try them, and try them against my aikido also, for my own improvement. And but one can never know everything about everything. I understand this. If I could just figure out the pre-movement flinches for simple straight front punch or front or side kick I would be happier.

For me, knowing what to look for in that fractional interim between the opponent thinking of his punch and actually throwing it, is what I am keenest to learn at this time..
Thank you sincerely for your patience :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[tshadowchaser]

People from other arts are doing something from that which is normal to you. Their body movements are different from the aikidoka even if they are trying to do the same thing ( punch, kick, etc.).
Yes you may be able to figure that a movement is coming from the top half of the body or the lower half but if you have not faced these moves countless times you may not recognize the “tell” when it is presented.
Sometime it is also a “feeling” you get rather than an actual knowing. Listen to this feeling and react without questioning it. You might get some surprising results.
Your opponents level of training may also have something to do with if you pick up these “tells”. Practice with those of beginning ranks then intermediate ranks. Watch how each throws that punch or kick and start to see what they do just prior to delivering the attack. For that matter just visit a “karate” school and sit and watch people practice. You will see some interesting movement in the bodies when they perform.
Not much help I know , just more thoughts

sheldon

[Jenna]

Not much help I know , just more thoughts

Hey Sheldon :) Never say that. I promise you I consider every thought and every opinion given.

And I want to say I appreciate the spirit in which everyone here has given those thoughts and opinions and expertise and I want to say thank you to everyone who has contributed and for patience at my endless questions and rambling on and on :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[morph4me]

Hey tshadowchaser :) Yes of course, this is true and I agree completely. And but I think there is another aspect that I have noticed and I wonder would you or anyone have a comment. When I am in happy randori with another aikidoka, I can predict their movement with a decent accuracy and with no great worry. I like to take myself around people and places though and have found when I face players from other arts KF, JJ and TKD for example, I have no notion what to look for IN TERMS OF PREDICTION. I can still defend to best of my ability and but zero chance of prediction. Zero for me.

I do try to spread my wings and see other arts and try them, and try them against my aikido also, for my own improvement. And but one can never know everything about everything. I understand this. If I could just figure out the pre-movement flinches for simple straight front punch or front or side kick I would be happier.

For me, knowing what to look for in that fractional interim between the opponent thinking of his punch and actually throwing it, is what I am keenest to learn at this time..
Thank you sincerely for your patience :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

When you practice against other arts, are you in the same place mentally as you are when you practice with other aikidoka? If you aren't as relaxed because you aren't as familiar with them, you might be "in your own way" with regards to predicting their attacks. If you practice with someone that will go slowly so that you can relax, you may find yourself equally adept at predicting their movements.

[chinto]

yes I can in that I tend to read the movements of that attacker better then the averedge person on the street. I will tend to spot the movements earlier and more correctly then that averidge person would. this is not mind reading but practice and a skill like any other.

[still learning]

Hello, Many times you can set up an opponent (feint) to make your opponent do what you want them to do or move to!

Everyone knows it takes experience to see those small movements to predict the opponent actions.

In most sports,football,baseball,basketball...you can predict the opponents line of attack thru experiences....

In martial arts it is the same training...you can learn to predict alot of attacks from your opponent...we this learn as part of our training thru sparring and contact fighting.....!

Even dating someone..we can predict if they like us or not...well many times anyway...

Predicting is base on experience ...more experiences's ....the more predictions possible!

Aloha ( oh oh? ....I predict...this may get blown down?)

PS: Predict = before it happens ........sore body= after it happens .....best be pro-active!!

[tshadowchaser]

still learning, well said you have stated what many have said in a different way

[Jenna]

When you practice against other arts, are you in the same place mentally as you are when you practice with other aikidoka? If you aren't as relaxed because you aren't as familiar with them, you might be "in your own way" with regards to predicting their attacks. If you practice with someone that will go slowly so that you can relax, you may find yourself equally adept at predicting their movements.
Oh no sir :) I am well out of my zone! Tom, you are exactly right in what you say and but I think being out of zone is a also good thing, no? In the dojo with my Aikido guys I never have to face the high kick - few of us can even stretch a kick to head height!! Nor am I ever concerned about leg sweeps and the like. I am sure you maybe appreciate that? Even in NGA? When I train with my own guys I can see our Aiki atemi / sword hand / shuto types coming from the next county. And there is no art in the prediction. Nor does feeling for balance change present a problem with my hand or hands already on the opponent. And but I accept that in my own style of Aikikai we are in no way conditioned for striking beyond functioning as uke.

And but jabs, hooks, simple side kicks and whatnot, these are the staples of outside fights, yes? That is why I have taken leave of myself and befriended practitioners of one or two other arts. I am not seeking to learn their arts, only how they strike. I am happy to DEAL with these as I see them coming. I would dearly love to be able to predict them BEFORE they come as I can with Aikido atemi. I am just uncertain of what to look for. I had thought there may have been specific knowledge of this and but I guess folk know how to do it while maybe not knowing exactly HOW they do it. I can see a backwards roll of the hips before most Aikido atemi are thrown. If the opponent is noving forwards I will notice a sudden forwards thrust. That is the general pattern I spot in Aikido terms. Boxers have a great tempo and but that can be a giveaway too. Though I have never matched a boxer when we have mucked around in my dad's gym. Never without taking a crazy load of hits before managing just one Aiki tech! And that is just mucking about and not for real, no ways!

I guess it is as most folk have rightly said, simply knowing the art? There are a lot of arts though. I had hoped striking mechanisms might have been similar? And but yes, this thread however has been very very helpful indeed. As has your advice :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[morph4me]

Oh no sir :) I am well out of my zone! Tom, you are exactly right in what you say and but I think being out of zone is a also good thing, no? In the dojo with my Aikido guys I never have to face the high kick - few of us can even stretch a kick to head height!! Nor am I ever concerned about leg sweeps and the like. I am sure you maybe appreciate that? Even in NGA? When I train with my own guys I can see our Aiki atemi / sword hand / shuto types coming from the next county. And there is no art in the prediction. Nor does feeling for balance change present a problem with my hand or hands already on the opponent. And but I accept that in my own style of Aikikai we are in no way conditioned for striking beyond functioning as uke.

And but jabs, hooks, simple side kicks and whatnot, these are the staples of outside fights, yes? That is why I have taken leave of myself and befriended practitioners of one or two other arts. I am not seeking to learn their arts, only how they strike. I am happy to DEAL with these as I see them coming. I would dearly love to be able to predict them BEFORE they come as I can with Aikido atemi. I am just uncertain of what to look for. I had thought there may have been specific knowledge of this and but I guess folk know how to do it while maybe not knowing exactly HOW they do it. I can see a backwards roll of the hips before most Aikido atemi are thrown. If the opponent is noving forwards I will notice a sudden forwards thrust. That is the general pattern I spot in Aikido terms. Boxers have a great tempo and but that can be a giveaway too. Though I have never matched a boxer when we have mucked around in my dad's gym. Never without taking a crazy load of hits before managing just one Aiki tech! And that is just mucking about and not for real, no ways!

I guess it is as most folk have rightly said, simply knowing the art? There are a lot of arts though. I had hoped striking mechanisms might have been similar? And but yes, this thread however has been very very helpful indeed. As has your advice :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


I believe that if you look at an attacker more as an "interested observer" and less as a "potential victim" that your mind is calm and you would be able to see the attack before it is launched and definetly before it has landed and your body will do what it is trained to do. When you first started practising Aikdido I'll bet you never saw the attacks coming either. I suggest an exercise, step into the ring with a boxer and don't think technique, let him move around the ring and throw punches and simply avoid them, do the same with the other martial artists you train with don't worry about techniques, just avoid the attack. I think you'll be quite suprised by how quickly you can predict the attack and figure out what to look for. When you can avoid the attacks you'll begin to find yourself in familiar positions and your techniques will happen.

[kidswarrior]

OK, I admit to not reading the middle pages of this thread, but've been outa town so if this post is redundant or has been squashed already, please overlook it.

I was trained in Kung Fu San Soo to look in an unfocused way at their torso--hip crease to shoulder, or if one had x-ray vision, their spine. Another way of saying what Sukerkin's beat me to:

See everything; focus on nothingBecause the first tell is going to be movement of the spine, which leads to movement of the hip/shoulder, whatever, which will propel the limb movement. Don't have any scientific/empirical evidence, but it's worked for me pretty well. I think TShadowchaser also nails my *feeling* on this (pun alert ;)):
Sometime it is also a “feeling” you get rather than an actual knowing. Listen to this feeling and react without questioning it. You might get some surprising results.These two gents have so well stated 'my' view, I may have to steal their material. :D Many thanks. :asian:

____
Edit: And now I see Hawke beat me to the punch as well:
A soft unfocused gaze around the middle of the chest to see the shoulders and hips has worked for me.