San Ti Shi

[DaPoets]

I have begun my San ti practice. I'm begining with 10 minutes a day for the next 30 days. I found that after about 8 minutes or so I really started to "get it" I guess for lack of a better phrase. I'm hoping that I hit that point after a couple minutes after doing this for a month. Then I'll increse it to either 15 or 20 minutes at a time. I was told that this should be a good pace to correctly experience this and begin to understand it.

Thoughts?

[DavidCC]

my experience is similar - it takes a few minutes to "settle in" to it, get all the parts in place...

[Xue Sheng]

I have begun my San ti practice. I'm begining with 10 minutes a day for the next 30 days. I found that after about 8 minutes or so I really started to "get it" I guess for lack of a better phrase. I'm hoping that I hit that point after a couple minutes after doing this for a month. Then I'll increse it to either 15 or 20 minutes at a time. I was told that this should be a good pace to correctly experience this and begin to understand it.

Thoughts?

Don't rush Santi.

10 minutes means what? total or per side?


my experience is similar - it takes a few minutes to "settle in" to it, get all the parts in place...

Agreed

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Now that you started practicing Santi you will notice when you practice the form how much more it make sense. You will see even more clearly how Peng works.

Santi should not be rushed I recall when I was doing Santi and my teacher was fixing my posture and making me sink and my back leg felt like hot lava moving and I jumped out of Santi.

You should do Santi on both sides careful not to over do it is demanding.

[DaPoets]

Yes I am just doing 10 minutes per side. I don't want to rush anything just as stated. I guess I should have been more clear initially.

[East Winds]

DaPoets,

If you can do Santi for 10 minutes each side after this short time, then I suggest you are doing it incorrectly.If you have not experienced (as JadecloudAlchemist describes it) - hot lava moving and jumping out of Santi, then you are definitely not doing it correctly. Who is supervising your practise and stances? Correct Santi, as others have said, cannot be rushed. Its not like the TTCS set which can be "learned" in 12 weeks. Correct Santi training can take years to reach 20 minutes each side. I thought I was doing really good Santi until Grandmaster Yu Yong Nian made a very minor tweak to my posture, and I got the hot lava and jumping experience. You need a teacher. I suggest there is no one in the TTCS who has that experience. The answer is to visit a real Hsing-I school and try it out. But then of course, the TTCS will not allow you to do that, will they?

Very best wishes

[pete]

hey Dapoets... keep the faith.

difference with Xingyi, as opposed to Tai Chi, is the initial precision required to make the standing posture 'work'. With Tai Chi you can grow into all those adjustments as you develop in the art, but with Xingyi it is taught to be precise from the start.

i won't cast doubt into the quality of your instructor as others from half way cross the world seem to be relentless... if it works for you, then keep it going. if it's not working, or you begin to stagnate, question or move on.

one thing for sure is depending on your nature and psychic make-up, a lot of xingyi early on can be addictive and put a nasty edge on you. its probably a good idea to keep your santi shi in moderation and balance it with some tai chi or bagua. again, this really depends on the individual.

pete.

[DaPoets]

Everyday I practice my tai chi, lok hup ba fa, xing-yi and most days my tai chi sword and saber. This all keeps me balanced nicely.

[Xue Sheng]

Yes I am just doing 10 minutes per side. I don't want to rush anything just as stated. I guess I should have been more clear initially.

Are you standing in a posture similar to these?

http://wushu.one.pl/grafika/artykuly/santishi2.jpg

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/

Feet about 2.5 to 3 feet apart

Weight distribution 60 rear leg /40 front leg

If you drew a line from your back foot to your front foot the line would be at the heel of the back foot and the big toe of the front foot. Your front foot is turned in slightly. And your body is turned slightly as well

On the same side that is the back foot that hand is at the navel the side that is the front foot that hand is in front of you fingers slightly apart thumb a bit further forming what is referred to as the tiger’s mouth. The index finger of this hand is directly in front of your nose and you are focused on that finger but you are sinking your Qi to the Dantian.

[DaPoets]

Yes the general basis for the posture is similar to one of the xing-yi exercises that we do. It is getting used to the 60/40 weight balance and holding it. sinking Qi to the Dantian is something I have been working on for many years now. I am also slightly curling my toes, as if gripping the ground with my feet.

[East Winds]

Pete,

"i won't cast doubt into the quality of your instructor as others from half way cross the world seem to be relentless..."

The difference is, that, (unlike you) some of us from "half way cross the world" have a few years experience of TTCS and therefore know what we are talking about.

Anyway thanks for your continued input.

[pete]

basically you have an opinion within a general context. it may be an informed opinion, but opinion nonetheless.

i enjoy a nice cold beer every so often, really enjoy a guinness and have little use for budweiser. that is my opinion. so i enjoy my guinness, or an occasional sam adams. let all those who drink buds continue to drink their buds if that is what they like. it IS all beer, and their choice is no threat to my opinion.

Dapoets seems to be sincere and dedicated in his practice. we can all share our experiences without getting overly preachy or condescending. that is not what Tai Chi is about. that is not what this forum is about.

pete.

[East Winds]

Pete,

Thanks for your valuable input. Some of us consider it is important to teach correct Chinese Internal Martial Arts. i.e. arts with a martial content. If you wish to teach otherwise or support those who do, then you are contributing to the destruction of these arts. And of course you are correct. I am contributing from the basis of informed opinion which I find is always a more accurate form of debate. By the way, you really need to find out the difference between opinion and taste. And I’m still waiting for you to tell me which form of Taiji you teach. Your website (like you) is surprisingly silent on the matter. But then perhaps you think it doesn’t matter so long as you call it Tai Chi.

Very best wishes

[pete]

East Winds,

i am glad you find value in my input, and hope that your practice and sincerity towards the art will continue to mature as a result.

nobody, not you nor i, have exclusivity to what we all share as Tai Chi, or Martial Arts for that matter. What we do have is our experience, our vision, and yes our opinions on how best to practice, grow, and share what we do.

as for me, what i do and from whom i've learned, is quite clear and available for yourself to read, or anyone interested in taking classes.

Bury west fishes,

Pete

[East Winds]

DaPoets,

"sinking Qi to the Dantian is something I have been working on for many years now".

This is of course the mainstay of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan training for the issue of fajing within the form. I was not aware that the TTCS taught this process. Can you give us some indication of the training processes involved please?

Very best wishes

[DaPoets]

I finished my 1st book on xing-yi and surprisingly it clearly states that there are two roads for practicing xing-yi. One is for the combat art, and the other is the Taoist healing art for longevity. Neither is greater than the other as it is the practitioner's goal and intent of the mind and body that makes the difference.

I think there is no confusion as to why I practice the internal martial arts that I do. I'm not one for combat even though I have gone that route in the past. I am one of longevity, youthfulness, and cultivating shen. Cultivating Shen is my primary focus and TTCS has done a great deal for me over the years in acheiving this. Liuhebafa, xing-yi, taijidao, taijijian, taijiquan, are all tools to help acheive this. San Ti Shi is another tool to help me improve my xing-yi and thus was the purpose of this thread. Pete I great appreciate your thoughts and comments and I equally appreciate East Winds as well as he helps me keep my eyes open. His experience in TTCS is vastly different than mine as he is accross the pond and I would get a call from Master Moy to just go have dinner...

TTCS didn't touch on San Ti Shi much at all BUT there are those in TTCS that have gone fairly deep into xing-yi and luckly due to my proximity to T.O. I have the luxury to go deeper in my training that just a week long workshop.

I appreciate all of the comments and thoughts,

DaPoets

[DaPoets]

DaPoets,

"sinking Qi to the Dantian is something I have been working on for many years now".

This is of course the mainstay of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan training for the issue of fajing within the form. I was not aware that the TTCS taught this process. Can you give us some indication of the training processes involved please?

Very best wishes

I began my training in this while in college just before I became introduced to the TTCS. long story short, the Chinese teachers at my university were deep into tai chi and qi gong and taught me a good deal.
As for TTCS, it is not formalized instruction as not everyone would understand it because it is easier to understand when your body/mind is going through the changes needed to truly feel and grasp this. The easiest way I can explain the TTCS teachings of this are during open practice with very senior instructors. Here you will learn a great deal more on this as well as healing qi gong application if you are at that level. Most that become aware of this need to practice cultivation for many years before even attempting any form of healing qi gong.

Again this is from my experience of what I am seeing and experiencing. This is something you would not see accross the pond.

[Xue Sheng]

I finished my 1st book on xing-yi and surprisingly it clearly states that there are two roads for practicing xing-yi. One is for the combat art, and the other is the Taoist healing art for longevity. Neither is greater than the other as it is the practitioner's goal and intent of the mind and body that makes the difference.

I am not disputing this and in fact I agree but Xingyiquan was a Chinese Military style and is considered an old Chinese Military martial art which was most certainly for fighting.

I am of the opinion that it you seperate the 2 or emphasize one over the other you only get half the picture and half the benefit.

[East Winds]

DaPoets,

Clearly we mean different things when we talk about sinking the chi to the dantien. In Traditional Yang we do this by applying Yang Cheng-fu’s 10 essences during our form practise. The first 5 essences are external and cumulative whilst the second 5 essences are internal. Try applying the first five essences the next time you do your form. They are:



Lift the head – raise the spirit
Sink the shoulders and elbows
Loosen the chest and round the back
Loosen the waist and open the Kua
Differentiate between the substantial and insubstantial. (be aware of how the weight changes in the legs).


Remember they are cumulative. You cannot have essence two until; you are doing essence one and you cannot be doing essence 3 until you are doing essence 1 and 2 and so on. This is not an easy process, but is the whole and simple secret of Yang Family Taijiquan. Remember the saying “There are no secrets” – Yang Cheng-fu told us them all. We just don’t pay attention to them because they are so simple.

I will be interested to hear your progress if you try and implement the essences. I was often told in the TTCS “You cannot do this yet because you are not ready, or you are not sufficiently advanced” What utter nonsense!!

Very best wishes

[DaPoets]

I'm very confused why you said "clearly we mean differnt things when we talk about sinking the chi to the dantien." This is something I have been doing for many years now and the steps you stated are natural to me and are done w/ out thought. Did I say something to make you think otherwise? Or are you comparing your TTCS experience to mine...


DaPoets,

Clearly we mean different things when we talk about sinking the chi to the dantien. In Traditional Yang we do this by applying Yang Cheng-fu’s 10 essences during our form practise. The first 5 essences are external and cumulative whilst the second 5 essences are internal. Try applying the first five essences the next time you do your form. They are:



Lift the head – raise the spirit
Sink the shoulders and elbows
Loosen the chest and round the back
Loosen the waist and open the Kua
Differentiate between the substantial and insubstantial. (be aware of how the weight changes in the legs).

Remember they are cumulative. You cannot have essence two until; you are doing essence one and you cannot be doing essence 3 until you are doing essence 1 and 2 and so on. This is not an easy process, but is the whole and simple secret of Yang Family Taijiquan. Remember the saying “There are no secrets” – Yang Cheng-fu told us them all. We just don’t pay attention to them because they are so simple.

I will be interested to hear your progress if you try and implement the essences. I was often told in the TTCS “You cannot do this yet because you are not ready, or you are not sufficiently advanced” What utter nonsense!!

Very best wishes

[DaPoets]

Xue Sheng,
Please clarify "half the benefit". I ask this because do you mean that only focusing mainly on the health aspect of xing-yi that I'm not getting the full health benifits unless I also explore the combat art side as well, or are you saying that even though I'm getting the health benifits of xing-yi, I'm only experiencing half of what xing-yi has to offer as I'm missing the combat aspect. I believe are are speaking of the latter but I just wanted to clarify.

Thanks as always!

DaPoets


I am not disputing this and in fact I agree but Xingyiquan was a Chinese Military style and is considered an old Chinese Military martial art which was most certainly for fighting.

I am of the opinion that it you seperate the 2 or emphasize one over the other you only get half the picture and half the benefit.

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,
Please clarify "half the benefit". I ask this because do you mean that only focusing mainly on the health aspect of xing-yi that I'm not getting the full health benifits unless I also explore the combat art side as well, or are you saying that even though I'm getting the health benifits of xing-yi, I'm only experiencing half of what xing-yi has to offer as I'm missing the combat aspect. I believe are are speaking of the latter but I just wanted to clarify.

Thanks as always!

DaPoets

What I am saying is that to get the full health benefit of Xingyiquan you need to train the combat side as well, conversely if you do not train the health side of Xingyiquan you will not gain the full combat side. I feel the same way about Taijiquan.

You can gain health benefits form training only the health side in either style, just not the full benefit. Or at least this is what I have been told and read and this is of course IMO.

It is not necessary to look to the combat side of any of these however it is just that IMO you will not gain the full benefit without doing so. This is not saying you will not gain any benefit just not all you could. Don’t forget that training the combat side is also learning how to direct qi and unify the body.

And if one is truly adverse to the combat of things I imagine (speaking purely based on opinion) it could detrimental to the psychological side of things

And just as a note:
To Yang Chengfu's 10 Essences they are rather important to Yang Taiji and I am not saying you could not apply them to Xingyiquan but I would not worry about them when talking Xingyiquan. Xingyiquan has its own approach and its own things to focus on

[East Winds]

DaPoets,

I asked you how you trained sinking the Chi to the Dantien and you gave a non answer. I gave you a specific answer as to how we did it in Traditional Yang and you implied that you did the same in TTC. That is patently not the case as can be shown by the photographs you produced in another post. Lest I be accused of opinionating, let me explain. The excessive forward lean, as for instance in Brush Knee, negates essence 1. The excessive forward lean raises the shoulders and therefore negates essence 2 and 3. The squaring of the hips and the sticking out of the backside negates essence 4. I agree with Xue Sheng that these aspects have nothing to do with Hsing-I but it was you who told us you had vast experience of Sinking the Chi. I merely asked how you trained that aspect. I will ask again. How do you train Sinking the Chi to the Dantien? And please don't try and imply that your TTCS experience is so much superior to mine. It is clear from your posts that you have little experience outwith that of the TTCS.

[mograph]

If I may ...

DaPoets, since we know that training santi shi and (even) mentioning qi is contrary to TTCS orthodoxy ...

... are you saying that your training is contrary to TTCS orthodoxy?

... or are you saying that training santi shi and the sinking of the Qi to the dantien is reserved for indoor students such as yourself?

[DaPoets]

Mentioning qi is not contrary to TTCS as it is openly spoken about and explained in classes that I attend. It probably isn't spoken of much as many instructors may not fully be aware of the matter. Like any organization or training style, you have to find the instructor that is right for you and your level and abilities.
Qi flows easily when there is emptiness, lack of tension, correctly stacked skeletal structure, intension and spirit. This is what TTCS teaches from my experience. Now is there more than 1 version of Tai Chi... yes... Is anyone one version "greater" than another, perhaps. This is what has been working for me for many years now.

I don't recall which pictures were refered to but there are many different levels and understanding of taijiquan in TTCS and there is very bad tai chi out there and there is spectacular tai chi out there.

I hope this clears things up.


If I may ...

DaPoets, since we know that training santi shi and (even) mentioning qi is contrary to TTCS orthodoxy ...

... are you saying that your training is contrary to TTCS orthodoxy?

... or are you saying that training santi shi and the sinking of the Qi to the dantien is reserved for indoor students such as yourself?

[DaPoets]

[quote=East Winds;1007876]DaPoets,

How do you train Sinking the Chi to the Dantien? /quote]

answer= through and enlightened teacher. You can read all the books on the subject but to do this correctly you need a teacher to show you the way.

[East Winds]

DaPoets,

Thank you, I already know that. I also know how to sink Chi to the Dantien. I am asking you what methodology you use. Simple question?

Very best wishes

[East Winds]

DaPoets,

The photographs I referred to were posted by you on the thread Taoist Tai Chi versus Traditional Yang. Presumably you posted them as good examples of Taoist Tai Chi (why would anyone post bad examples of their art!!). But never mind here is perfect example of what I mean. brush knee (http://66.221.207.36/english/images/awarenessday_pics_2006/Australia_Perth_IAD02.JPG?PHPSESSID=04008962739c33 ac6ddd39e38ff1153d)

Very best wishes

[DaPoets]

I think you are looking for a structured 1 - 10 step process. From years of practice I just will it and it happens when I'm in a relaxed state. I practice this while waiting in line, in the elevator, at a stop light, on the phone etc... When my body is relaxed, mind at ease, the spirt and qi go where asked. I do this during my liuhebafa & taijiquan practice and even complete the orbit through different tongue connections. Sinking qi to the lower dan tian is a good start of the process and you then get to a point where you are "full" and the circulation (orbit) can happen or the blockages worked on if they exist. My blockages are nearly all gone, thus my desire to cultivate shen which is the next stage for me.

[Xue Sheng]

Like I said nothing wrong with Yang Chengfu's 10 essences (http://www.yangstyletaichi.co.uk/page13.htm)) but this is Xingyiquan not Yang Taijiquan - Follow the link (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/) and select "Pounding" and you will get a lot of info that is more applicable to Xingyiquan than the 10 essences

Some key elements to Xingyiquan are the Six Harmonies:



The hands harmonize with the feet,
The shoulders harmonize with the hips,
The elbows harmonize with the knees,
The heart harmonizes with the intent,
The intent harmonizes with the qi,
The qi harmonizes with the power.
In order for your jing to be effective and powerful, these principles must be followed, regardless of the style you practice.

- Dai Long Bang, 1750 A.D.


And 7 key points



Sink the waist - the coccyx is curled under. Imagine the tailbone is trying to touch the nose.

Relax the shoulders - the shoulders become rounded, getting "behind" the arms.

Depress the chest - the chest becomes hollow and sunken in conjunction with the shoulders rounding.

Press - the tongue is gently touching the roof of the mouth while the hands reach and press outwards.

Lift - the anus is lifted and contracted.

Moving across and moving smoothly must be understood - "moving across" is to rise and "moving smoothly" is to lower.

Rising, drilling, falling and overturning must be clearly separated - when one raises the arms in Xingyi, this is drilling. When the arms fall, this they must overturn.

From Konghua Xingyiquan (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/)

[Xue Sheng]

DePoets

I just realized that I never asked you what you learned in the 10 days of Xingyiquan

Wuxing (5 elements) or Animal forms or something else?

[Xue Sheng]

More about Santi

Front foot is turned about 15 degrees inward and the rear foot is at 45 degrees outward

The weight distribution is generally said to be (back leg/front Leg) 60/40 or 70/30

There are also high, middle and low level stances

High level means your feet are about 2 of your foot lengths apart
Middle level means your feet are about 2.5 of your foot lengths apart
Low level means your feet are about 3 of your foot lengths apart

The higher being more for cultivation and health the lower being more for combat.

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

It was DaPoets who raised the question of sinking the Chi with this quote "sinking Qi to the Dantian is something I have been working on for many years now." I was merely asking him how he did it. From his last reply, clearly he has no idea!!!:erg:

Very best wishes

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

It was DaPoets who raised the question of sinking the Chi with this quote "sinking Qi to the Dantian is something I have been working on for many years now." I was merely asking him how he did it. From his last reply, clearly he has no idea!!!:erg:

Very best wishes

My apologies if I gave the impression that I was aiming this at you or your post, I was not, I should have been more clear and not so over zealous

I was just pointing out to DePoets what Xingyiquan is and what it isn't.

However after reading all of this stuff I am thinking about a comparison between Yang Chengfu's 10 essences and Xingyiquan's written guides (if you will)

[JadecloudAlchemist]

There is no seperation of health and martial.

If you practice correctly health will result.
If you practice correctly you will be able to protect yourself.

When you seperate the oneness of Hsing Yi it becomes diluted it is the same for all arts.

If you look closely at the Wu hsing form you will find that they do relate to the channels. If you do practice with martial intent your Qi will flow thru the arm channels and leg channels which also rises the Shen.

All of this starts at San Ti. Because with correct San Ti is correct movement correct movement will result in correct intent and technique which results in protecting yourself and good health.

Xue gave a lot of useful info for free too!!:highfive:

[East Winds]

JadecloudAlchemist.

Right on the money!!!

Very best wishes

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

No offence taken. I realised that I had highjacked the thread somewhat, but when you get a chance to ask a TTCS person to give a specific reply to a specific question, that is when you can show the shallowness of their teachings.

My own exposure to Hsing-I is the same as DaPoets. A one week course. However mine was with a true exponent of the art - Peter Ralston!! I did not pursue my studies of the art.

Very best wishes

[mograph]

If you do practice with martial intent your Qi will flow thru the arm channels and leg channels which also rises the Shen.

Indeed. I'd add that martial intent is neither anger nor aggression.

We should not fear martial intent in the internal martial arts. Combined with wisdom, calmness and compassion, martial intent and healthful practice can reap great health benefits, such as those described by JadecloudAlchemist.

(Of course, I can't speak for external martial arts, but that would be a different forum.)

[Xue Sheng]

Guess what I have been reading this morning

Go here (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html)... again

Click Crushing

Under training you will find San Ti Shi Exercise

Under Theory & Principles (also under Crushing)
What makes a complete system - it is talking mainly Bagua but it is applicable

[PHElwood]

the emptyflower.com website is very helpful- the description of santi shi here is quite well presented. Thank you, Xue Sheng.