discussion of techniques [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

pesilat

03-06-2003, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I also like the close quarters combat, but I am suprized to see so many others also prefer to be close. I was always taught in TKD to use distance to my advantage, in the past it has proven work but it has also gotten me in trouble I'm 6 ft.2" so I have a long reach, I guess with me I would have to feel out my oponent to see where they are comfortable and try to make them fight me where thier uncomfortable in sence making them fight my fight.

That's always what it boils down to.

It's also one of the reasons it pays to be well-rounded.

And why the person who's better with his tools (regardless of what they are or where they come from) that has the advantage.

A good long range fighter can keep people at long range. But a good close range fighter is good at getting through the long range into the close range. So the person who is better with his/her tools will have the advantage in getting into his/her game.

Having a specialty, but also being well-rounded, is the best method IMHO. It gives you the skill to deal with other games while getting into your own game. And it can help you counter other people's attempts to draw you into their game.

And, if you encounter someone who's better at your preferred game than you are, then, hopefully, you can find somewhere that they're not as comfortable.

Mike

pesilat

03-06-2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by akja
How do step? Do you step similar to Kali? How are you going to get around without me following?

Sounds more like Silat stepping to me. We get it from Langkah Sliwa (the square). It can be very deceptive. I'm not sure if this is what chufeng is talking about, but it sounds similar from his description.

Mike

James Kovacich

03-06-2003, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by pesilat
Not at all. Like I said, you're at the outside of what I consider my optimal striking range. I personally prefer to be a good deal closer.

Mike

What a differance a step makes. A bit closer will work for me too. I don't have too many pictures but that one is real close to my world.

I've been working out with a Wing Chun fighter and a JKD fighter and they are helping work in my range again with a new point of view.

chufeng

03-06-2003, 11:46 PM

Because I let you attack...full out...
...and I don't oppose it...I simply let it slip by...
You see the nervous system is wired to complete a task...
If you tell your arm to punch, it will, until a) it meets resistance, or, b) the action is depleted (completed).

I let you attack and by the time you complete your attack, I am no longer there. You can't track me, because I wait until you FULLY commit to the attack...if you don't fully commit, I just wait for you and tie you up or dispatch you when you arrive.

The key is, I don't block...
I move...

If I do block, it isn't a block at all, it is an attack...and that's another strategy, entirely.

:asian:
chufeng

James Kovacich

03-06-2003, 11:48 PM

James Kovacich

03-06-2003, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by pesilat
That's always what it boils down to.

It's also one of the reasons it pays to be well-rounded.

And why the person who's better with his tools (regardless of what they are or where they come from) that has the advantage.

A good long range fighter can keep people at long range. But a good close range fighter is good at getting through the long range into the close range. So the person who is better with his/her tools will have the advantage in getting into his/her game.

Having a specialty, but also being well-rounded, is the best method IMHO. It gives you the skill to deal with other games while getting into your own game. And it can help you counter other people's attempts to draw you into their game.

And, if you encounter someone who's better at your preferred game than you are, then, hopefully, you can find somewhere that they're not as comfortable.

Mike

You nailed it right there. When I'm in close, I get a chance to feel them out and let them determine for me what I'll do. Not them being in control though. If they step one way then I'll do this or that.

And when feeling them out, I can try and determine which range is their weakest. Theres always somebody who has faster hands or feet or who is a better grappler. So I have to be prepared to be able to go to any range that the fight goes or to take the fight to another range myself.

James Kovacich

03-07-2003, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by chufeng
Because I let you attack...full out...
...and I don't oppose it...I simply let it slip by...
You see the nervous system is wired to complete a task...
If you tell your arm to punch, it will, until a) it meets resistance, or, b) the action is depleted (completed).

I let you attack and by the time you complete your attack, I am no longer there. You can't track me, because I wait until you FULLY commit to the attack...if you don't fully commit, I just wait for you and tie you up or dispatch you when you arrive.

The key is, I don't block...
I move...

If I do block, it isn't a block at all, it is an attack...and that's another strategy, entirely.

:asian:
chufeng

I can see what your saying but I want to actually see it. I've been training with a guy who did White Crane Gung-Fu before JKD and with JKD he learned some form of Silat and Kali. He moves like what you say and I'm interested.

My Jun Fan is a little differant from the Jun Fan that distinctly resembles Bruces movements. The Maciases shortened up the techniques quite abit. By shortening up, I'm talking about hacking away at the essentials or chiseling the technique like you hear in JKD terminology.

What I'm doing is drawing a picture that I'm adding more tools into my toolbox. My footwork is changing slightly, but until I actually try applying it, I can't say yet.

chufeng

03-07-2003, 12:12 AM

AKJA,

Just to clarify...I allow the attack to occur...I let it develop to the point where the attacker KNOWS he is going to hit me, then I move.

In the instant of realizing that I've moved, the attacker realizes too late that he is fv<ked...(my apologies to the moderators...I simply wanted to make a point).

Hope that clarifies things.

:asian:
chufeng

James Kovacich

03-07-2003, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by chufeng
AKJA,

Just to clarify...I allow the attack to occur...I let it develop to the point where the attacker KNOWS he is going to hit me, then I move.

In the instant of realizing that I've moved, the attacker realizes too late that he is fv<ked...(my apologies to the moderators...I simply wanted to make a point).

Hope that clarifies things.

:asian:
chufeng

I hear ya. I really want to check out your art.

To get where I want to be, I don't mind gettin hit. In a fight, I have to expect getting hit. What I have to do is minimze the effects of any hits I take. I think its realistic, for me anyway to expect to get hit. But not be "willing" to get hit. Don't misunderstand that point.

Matt Stone

03-07-2003, 01:22 AM

Yiliquan has eight methods of footwork application. Ultimately, none of them matter. While they are learned and practiced separately, the final goal is that they blend into reaction devoid of thought, spurred by the intent of the attacker. Attacking a Yili student is like attacking water... It can either flow around you, splash away from you, or drive through you.

Let's play pretend for a moment...

Using your picture, we will "pretend" that the defender is you (or just the person on the right) and the attacker is the other guy (the gentleman on the left).

I tend to favor rolling over, driving through or destroying/punishing in place. I am heavy enough in stature and solid enough to allow for a good number of inferior techniques to hit me and literally bounce off. No worries.

With that mentality, I (akja, the guy on the right) would slam a left hammerfist down on the radial aspect of the attacker's right arm, simultaneously punching/striking with the right hand to the neck/chest area. I would let the right hand slip under his left arm, wrapping it around to engage him in a reverse arm bar, sliding the left hand up and behind his head to duck his head downward, causing his head to be propelled downward; I would also step with my right foot as I do this, pivoting around to face perpendicularly to the line of attack. I am partial to elbows and knees, so I would assist him in halting his head's downward progress by slowing its descent with my left knee. More can be done, but this is getting long enough to read as it is... ;)

That is only one simple example. It makes use of Heaven, Still and almost Wood Shape of Yiliquan's "Eight Shapes" (Yi Li Ba Xing Quan), the core and hallmark of Yiliquan as a whole.

And just to clarify, Yiliquan is a defensive art. Whenever Chufeng and I are "playing," and I am forced to attack him, I rarely land anything more than a tickling shot. Although he is very senior to me in training, understanding and experience, on the rare occasions when Chufeng launches an attack that I am able to react to, even my miserable techniques allow me to overwhelm him... Of course, that happens rarely if ever, and I usually pay for it dearly afterward... :D He's still pretty potent for an old fart.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

James Kovacich

03-07-2003, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Yiliquan has eight methods of footwork application. Ultimately, none of them matter. While they are learned and practiced separately, the final goal is that they blend into reaction devoid of thought, spurred by the intent of the attacker. Attacking a Yili student is like attacking water... It can either flow around you, splash away from you, or drive through you.

Let's play pretend for a moment...

Using your picture, we will "pretend" that the defender is you (or just the person on the right) and the attacker is the other guy (the gentleman on the left).

I tend to favor rolling over, driving through or destroying/punishing in place. I am heavy enough in stature and solid enough to allow for a good number of inferior techniques to hit me and literally bounce off. No worries.

With that mentality, I (akja, the guy on the right) would slam a left hammerfist down on the radial aspect of the attacker's right arm, simultaneously punching/striking with the right hand to the neck/chest area. I would let the right hand slip under his left arm, wrapping it around to engage him in a reverse arm bar, sliding the left hand up and behind his head to duck his head downward, causing his head to be propelled downward; I would also step with my right foot as I do this, pivoting around to face perpendicularly to the line of attack. I am partial to elbows and knees, so I would assist him in halting his head's downward progress by slowing its descent with my left knee. More can be done, but this is getting long enough to read as it is... ;)

That is only one simple example. It makes use of Heaven, Still and almost Wood Shape of Yiliquan's "Eight Shapes" (Yi Li Ba Xing Quan), the core and hallmark of Yiliquan as a whole.

And just to clarify, Yiliquan is a defensive art. Whenever Chufeng and I are "playing," and I am forced to attack him, I rarely land anything more than a tickling shot. Although he is very senior to me in training, understanding and experience, on the rare occasions when Chufeng launches an attack that I am able to react to, even my miserable techniques allow me to overwhelm him... Of course, that happens rarely if ever, and I usually pay for it dearly afterward... :D He's still pretty potent for an old fart.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

We see things similar or I'd say that I can see what your saying and I like it. It so far fits what I've been exposed to as a parallel art. I'm not saying my art or yours is equal but have similarities from a JKD point of view.

James Kovacich

03-07-2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by chufeng
AKJA,

YiLiQuan is totally defensive in nature...
So we always let the other guy commit before waxing him.
When I said "sweet zone" I was referring to a devastating counterattack...in fact in your picture, I would have already launched, either by completely closing the distance and punishing from the inside, or by "getting firmly behind the attack."
For that "behind the attack" technique, I would seem to disappear...but only for a moment...and then remind you where I am...oops.

:asian:
chufeng

To clarify.
In the picture, I'm the short one and I am not attacking. The big guy is attempting to grab me and I am demonstrating a natural defensive hand positioning that works well for me to transition into whatever direction the fight goes.

Johnathan Napalm

03-07-2003, 12:39 PM

What if the attack is a feint to draw you in? Almost all experts initiate feint attack first. The real attack may come after several feint attacks to set you up. How does Yiliquan deal with that?

James Kovacich

03-07-2003, 12:53 PM

I'm sure he'll have an answer. I do understand what they are saying. And that is exactly why I practice so differantly. I am a Gung-Fu man but if your Gung-Fu is good. Why would I try to match it? I could try but I probably wouldn't. My first choice would be to attempt to take the fight in another range. And if they are good there as well, then theres always another range or even back to the original range.

Fighting in combination of ranges is what I stress. Its hard to dictate a fight, so its second best to be competent wherever the fight goes.

James Kovacich

03-07-2003, 02:34 PM

I would like to get some input from differant arts on how you would defend against an attacker in a left lead and throwing a right cross.

You can be in a left lead or a right lead or both you could decribe both. What I want to hear is input based on differant arts.

pesilat

03-07-2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by akja
I would like to get some input from differant arts on how you would defend against an attacker in a left lead and throwing a right cross.

You can be in a left lead or a right lead or both you could decribe both. What I want to hear is input based on differant arts.

Umm ... well, your subject is "haymaker" but your question is "right cross." Which do you want?

I'll go ahead and answer the right cross question with stylistic answer from each of the arts that I teach (note, these aren't necessarily what I would do, though one of them would likely come out of me; but they're really just intended to give you a kind of flavor of each style). I'm going from a right lead in each of these.

Kali:
In & out entry (i.e.: my left is on outside of his arm, my right shoots under and inside, pinning his punch between my left hand and right forearm) with a right finger jab to the throat. Gunting to his right bicep (downward knuckle rake looking for his brachial nerve). Left hand traps his right down, while right moves into a backhand knifehand (angle 2) to his neck, as I step my right foot onto his left foot (the strike lands just after my foot pins his foot and disrupts his balance). From the knifehand, I slap the back of his neck to bring his head forward, then I reverse the motion of my right hand and meet his face with my right elbow, then unfold my elbow to hook the back of his head again. Then puter kepala (head turning throw, my left arm lifts his right arm up and to the right while my right hand tucks his head down and to the left). This should do some serious damage to his left ankle because I've got his foot pinned. Then I draw my weapon and get serious (it is Kali, after all :) )

Silat:
My left hand connects to the inside of his punch and I move my body forward, shunting his punch off to the side with my left hand. My left hand ends behind his neck. I pull his head forward with my left into my right elbow. Unfold my left hand as I step through with my left foot (now my left foot is behind his left foot and my left hip is against his left hip - I monitor his left hand with my right as I step through). Then I do a biset luar (outside rear sweep). As he falls, I bring my right elbow up in a vertical shot to the side of his neck/temple.

Sikal (hybrid of Kali and Silat):
In & out entry with right finger jab to throat. Slide deep, maintaining the pin of his arm between my right & left while I deliver a right vertical elbow to his chin. I unfold my right arm to the right side of his head and pull him slightly forward and down as I step my right foot to the outside of his left foot. I blend my weight into him and do a sapu luar (outside front sweep) to take his left leg out from under him.

Kun Tao Silat:
My right hand on the outside of his punch, I shoot in to hit him with a relaxed palm strike to the face while my right foot moves to the outside of his left foot and my right shin snugs against his left shin. I pivot to my left as I lower my right knee to the floor (through his left shin) to take him down with what we call a "kenjit kaki" (leg compression) in Silat. Groin shot. Leap into the air and come crashing down on his head (monkey energy).

Shen Chuan:
My right hand on the outside of his punch, I shoot in to hit im with a relaxed palm strike (Shen Chuan calls it a "lazy hand" strike) to the Gall Bladder 14 point just above the right eye. Drop my right elbow over his right hand, seat (drop my weight) and pivot to my right, pinning his hand in my right armpit while my left shoots a "burning" punch across his ribs under his arm (I get an incidental hyperextension of his elbow if I do it well). Catch the fingers of his left hand in my left hand, apply a finger lock while simultaneously applying an armbar to his right arm where it's pinned between my chest and right arm. "Shake like a dog" to disrupt his balance while dropping my energy (through the joint locks) toward one of his balance disruption points to drop him to the ground. Then I go home. (One of Shen Chuan's mottos: "Hit hard, hit fast, go to the house.)

Now, obviously, none of these are definitive answers. The opportunities for all these elements may or may not be there. These are simply possibilities intended to provide you with a "flavor" from each art.

Mike

James Kovacich

03-07-2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by pesilat
Umm ... well, your subject is "haymaker" but your question is "right cross." Which do you want?

I'll go ahead and answer the right cross question with stylistic answer from each of the arts that I teach (note, these aren't necessarily what I would do, though one of them would likely come out of me; but they're really just intended to give you a kind of flavor of each style). I'm going from a right lead in each of these.

Kali:
In & out entry (i.e.: my left is on outside of his arm, my right shoots under and inside, pinning his punch between my left hand and right forearm) with a right finger jab to the throat. Gunting to his right bicep (downward knuckle rake looking for his brachial nerve). Left hand traps his right down, while right moves into a backhand knifehand (angle 2) to his neck, as I step my right foot onto his left foot (the strike lands just after my foot pins his foot and disrupts his balance). From the knifehand, I slap the back of his neck to bring his head forward, then I reverse the motion of my right hand and meet his face with my right elbow, then unfold my elbow to hook the back of his head again. Then puter kepala (head turning throw, my left arm lifts his right arm up and to the right while my right hand tucks his head down and to the left). This should do some serious damage to his left ankle because I've got his foot pinned. Then I draw my weapon and get serious (it is Kali, after all :) )

Silat:
My left hand connects to the inside of his punch and I move my body forward, shunting his punch off to the side with my left hand. My left hand ends behind his neck. I pull his head forward with my left into my right elbow. Unfold my left hand as I step through with my left foot (now my left foot is behind his left foot and my left hip is against his left hip - I monitor his left hand with my right as I step through). Then I do a biset luar (outside rear sweep). As he falls, I bring my right elbow up in a vertical shot to the side of his neck/temple.

Sikal (hybrid of Kali and Silat):
In & out entry with right finger jab to throat. Slide deep, maintaining the pin of his arm between my right & left while I deliver a right vertical elbow to his chin. I unfold my right arm to the right side of his head and pull him slightly forward and down as I step my right foot to the outside of his left foot. I blend my weight into him and do a sapu luar (outside front sweep) to take his left leg out from under him.

Kun Tao Silat:
My right hand on the outside of his punch, I shoot in to hit him with a relaxed palm strike to the face while my right foot moves to the outside of his left foot and my right shin snugs against his left shin. I pivot to my left as I lower my right knee to the floor (through his left shin) to take him down with what we call a "kenjit kaki" (leg compression) in Silat. Groin shot. Leap into the air and come crashing down on his head (monkey energy).

Shen Chuan:
My right hand on the outside of his punch, I shoot in to hit im with a relaxed palm strike (Shen Chuan calls it a "lazy hand" strike) to the Gall Bladder 14 point just above the right eye. Drop my right elbow over his right hand, seat (drop my weight) and pivot to my right, pinning his hand in my right armpit while my left shoots a "burning" punch across his ribs under his arm (I get an incidental hyperextension of his elbow if I do it well). Catch the fingers of his left hand in my left hand, apply a finger lock while simultaneously applying an armbar to his right arm where it's pinned between my chest and right arm. "Shake like a dog" to disrupt his balance while dropping my energy (through the joint locks) toward one of his balance disruption points to drop him to the ground. Then I go home. (One of Shen Chuan's mottos: "Hit hard, hit fast, go to the house.)

Now, obviously, none of these are definitive answers. The opportunities for all these elements may or may not be there. These are simply possibilities intended to provide you with a "flavor" from each art.

Mike

Sorry about the "haymaker" I use it liberally to get the student differentiating in their mind the power punch from the jab.

That was exactly what I want to hear. By far the best post I've read in a while. Your right, you do know how to write!

That Petjak Silat USA link you sent me in that other thread teaches something along those lines?

pesilat

03-07-2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by akja
Sorry about the "haymaker" I use it liberally to get the student differentiating in their mind the power punch from the jab.

Not a problem. Personally, I always think of a haymaker as a hook that comes from "Arkansas to Ohio" :) But I know what you mean.

That was exactly what I want to hear. By far the best post I've read in a while. Your right, you do know how to write!

:o Thanks. I do my best.

[quoe]That Petjak Silat USA link you sent me in that other thread teaches something along those lines? [/QUOTE]

I've only had a very brief exposure to PSUSA, but what I described as a "Silat" answer was a pretty generic answer with a very Silat flavor (more specifically, a "Pukulan" flavor). I have no doubt that, though, that PSUSA would have an answer pretty similar to it in their repertoire.

There are a lot of different systems of Silat (literally hundreds and likely thousands). And there can be a huge amount of diversity between the various systems. Most of the Silat that I've trained in is of the "pukulan" variety. "Pukulan" means to strike or to hit. So "pukulan" systems tend to be standup systems with a lot of striking. The systems I've trained in generally use the striking to disrupt the balance and set up for sweeps/takedowns.

I'm not sure, but I believe that PSUSA would also be largely classified as a pukulan system. I know it has some influence from Pentjak Silat Serak which is definitely a pukulan system (and one of the places where my Silat is derived from).

Mike

Cruentus

03-07-2003, 04:40 PM

An ankle stomp with my rear left (if I am you) on to his lead ankle as a painful destraction, while maintaining control on his right hand grab w/ my left immediately comes to mind. I would then compress his right hand w/my left into my chest, shocking the wrist, and bringing him down a bit, while popping him in the face with an open palm right. I might then move into what we Modern Arnis practioners would call a "center-lock" on the wrist for the break.

This is just one hypothetical, but really it all depends on how the situation changes.

:cool:

chufeng

03-07-2003, 05:30 PM

What if the attack is a feint to draw you in? Almost all experts initiate feint attack first. The real attack may come after several feint attacks to set you up. How does Yiliquan deal with that?

Notice, I said fully committed attack...
YiLi practitioners develop the ability to "feel" the other person's intent...no intent, no attack, no worries...
A feint generally (not always) lacks such intent...
It is true that a really good fighter can initiaite a feint with strong intent...but they are rare.
In YiLi, we also train to take a good solid shot, so if something does get through, we just shake it off...
I'll even leave openings, to include just standing there with my arms at my sides, to get people to attack.

Does that mean I'm unbeatable? Hardly...
Does that mean I can't get hurt? Of course not...

You see YiLi really teaches how NOT to fight...so it is extremely unlikely that any of us would need to use our fighting skills for self defense...

:asian:
chufeng

James Kovacich

03-07-2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by chufeng
Notice, I said fully committed attack...
YiLi practitioners develop the ability to "feel" the other person's intent...no intent, no attack, no worries...
A feint generally (not always) lacks such intent...
It is true that a really good fighter can initiaite a feint with strong intent...but they are rare.
In YiLi, we also train to take a good solid shot, so if something does get through, we just shake it off...
I'll even leave openings, to include just standing there with my arms at my sides, to get people to attack.

Does that mean I'm unbeatable? Hardly...
Does that mean I can't get hurt? Of course not...

You see YiLi really teaches how NOT to fight...so it is extremely unlikely that any of us would need to use our fighting skills for self defense...

:asian:
chufeng

See, I figured you would have an answer. From what I have read from you and Yiliquan1, you have a good art. I am a Gung-Fu man, so I see things as they are. But I am also set in my ways and beliefs which are good for me.

What matters is the end result, coming full circle. The arts really are one, just like we as people are one. We all have minor differances but we are one!

Disco

03-07-2003, 06:31 PM

Based upon the photo, the attacker has grabbed you with his right hand. If this is a correct interpertation, then I would do the following.

Trap his hand with my right hand, rotate 90 degrees on my left foot and step back with my right foot as I lift my left arm to the outside of his right arm (behind the elbow) and put him in an open arm bar (This all happens simuitaneously). I am now facing sideways and I have forced the other side of his body to turn away from me. I now can execute a left sidekick to his knee. Since I still have his hand trapped I now can either rotate back to my left and do a wrist takedown or stay in the same position and do a wrist takedown from that position. If you are strong enough, you could snap the elbow when doing the arm bar, but you don't have to be strong to make it work as stated. Defense's such as this are especially effective for short people and females. If you are bigger, than it just works that much better.

Matt Stone

03-07-2003, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
What if the attack is a feint to draw you in? Almost all experts initiate feint attack first. The real attack may come after several feint attacks to set you up. How does Yiliquan deal with that?

Do you mean Yiliquan the art, or Yiliquan1 the person? ;)

As Chufeng said earlier, feints usually lack the intensity of a real attack, so they can often be discounted entirely.

When we train a feint, it is done as if it were the only technique being thrown at all. Feints should land as hard as "real" strikes if the other guy isn't either a) skilled enough to defend against it or b) dumb enough to stand there and take it.

If someone tries a high hand fake, I go for a nice low kick. If someone tries a low kick fake, I aim to put a fist sized hole in the middle of their forehead.

Ultimately, though, the opponent's intent is what causes the Yili practitioner to move. You will know what is coming, and getting out of the way (at minimum) is easier done than explained. After that, it's all gravy and grits... :D

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

sweeper

03-07-2003, 08:42 PM

well I like to out fight.. I'm just not good enough to fight on the inside against someone who is good on the inside or avoid being taken down if someone is a good grappler. When I'm standing up I like to fight in what would be an outside boxing range (in western boxing), I come in closer only when I have put the opponant on the deffencive. I can function closer but not optimaly, it isn't my comfort zone by any means (unless the other person is clueless in wich case I just try to stick my hands to them and apply alot of forward preasure and run em into something). to keep in my comfort zone I tend to use alot of thrusting kicks. also alot of toe kicks and kicks with the edge of my foot to scrape up the other person's shin.. the latter is to anoy people the former to keep range. Also like thai kicks to sweep people's lead foot out.

To deffend against a right cross, it depends on alot of things but genneraly I would either sink back with a fronmt thrust or a side kick to the shin/knee or body or I would try to cut off the angle of the punch/jam it with my left and simultaniously throw ajab (if I was right lead, cross if left) and than left turning hook, probably followed by a left side kick to the ribs or a left hook kick to the back/ side of their right knee and go from there.

Basicly I realy like striking things.. wetherI'm on the ground, inside or where ever I look for a striking solution, and if I'm offered a submision I usualy want to throw in a strike right before taking it. most of the time ground fighting you can throw alot of little strikes in that sort of anoy/distract your opponant, standing grappling I try to get a stalemate, I try to match up our arms so they can't strike or lock mine and I try to keep my footing so it's hard to get me down. usualy I try to headbutt in that situation.

James Kovacich

03-07-2003, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by sweeper
well I like to out fight.. I'm just not good enough to fight on the inside against someone who is good on the inside or avoid being taken down if someone is a good grappler. When I'm standing up I like to fight in what would be an outside boxing range (in western boxing), I come in closer only when I have put the opponant on the deffencive. I can function closer but not optimaly, it isn't my comfort zone by any means (unless the other person is clueless in wich case I just try to stick my hands to them and apply alot of forward preasure and run em into something). to keep in my comfort zone I tend to use alot of thrusting kicks. also alot of toe kicks and kicks with the edge of my foot to scrape up the other person's shin.. the latter is to anoy people the former to keep range. Also like thai kicks to sweep people's lead foot out.

To deffend against a right cross, it depends on alot of things but genneraly I would either sink back with a fronmt thrust or a side kick to the shin/knee or body or I would try to cut off the angle of the punch/jam it with my left and simultaniously throw ajab (if I was right lead, cross if left) and than left turning hook, probably followed by a left side kick to the ribs or a left hook kick to the back/ side of their right knee and go from there.

Basicly I realy like striking things.. wetherI'm on the ground, inside or where ever I look for a striking solution, and if I'm offered a submision I usualy want to throw in a strike right before taking it. most of the time ground fighting you can throw alot of little strikes in that sort of anoy/distract your opponant, standing grappling I try to get a stalemate, I try to match up our arms so they can't strike or lock mine and I try to keep my footing so it's hard to get me down. usualy I try to headbutt in that situation.

Sweeper,
Aren't you a JKD fighter? If so, the "inside" isn't your comfort zone, YET.

I'll be back to share later tonite better with you you and the others that shared.

James Kovacich

03-08-2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by PAUL
An ankle stomp with my rear left (if I am you) on to his lead ankle as a painful destraction, while maintaining control on his right hand grab w/ my left immediately comes to mind. I would then compress his right hand w/my left into my chest, shocking the wrist, and bringing him down a bit, while popping him in the face with an open palm right. I might then move into what we Modern Arnis practioners would call a "center-lock" on the wrist for the break.

This is just one hypothetical, but really it all depends on how the situation changes.

:cool:

I'm not sure. You said "I would then compress his right hand w/my left into MY CHEST, shocking the wrist,"

Were you pulling his wrist into YOUR chest of pushing his wrist into HIS chest?

Any way. I like a foot stomp. And if I used my left to grab his right, I would probably pull him in just enough to deliver my right punch or eyejab. (In the pic its not clear but my right arm is on top of his left arm) The right punch can go directly to the face or throat or it can go to the stomach or solar plexus followed by a left punch or eyejab.

In the case of the low right punch and a left eyejab, a high right punch would be appropriate or a right horizontal elbow or just use the right to grab behind his neck and headbutt or just use your hand behind his neck to re-direct him a bit and finish with something else. Whatever, its about being in "control" and keeping him out of his fight game.

The combinations are endless. I barely even mentioned the throat. And thats mainly just the upper ranges.

I like my technique to be a little forcefull so that when I get to the small joints it will take away from them being forcefull and "uncooperative" so to speak.

My approach is simple and direct but equally important to be prepared to whatever direction the fight goes.

On some days we are winners and losers, preparedness is my best answer.

James Kovacich

03-08-2003, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Disco
Based upon the photo, the attacker has grabbed you with his right hand. If this is a correct interpertation, then I would do the following.

Trap his hand with my right hand, rotate 90 degrees on my left foot and step back with my right foot as I lift my left arm to the outside of his right arm (behind the elbow) and put him in an open arm bar (This all happens simuitaneously). I am now facing sideways and I have forced the other side of his body to turn away from me. I now can execute a left sidekick to his knee. Since I still have his hand trapped I now can either rotate back to my left and do a wrist takedown or stay in the same position and do a wrist takedown from that position. If you are strong enough, you could snap the elbow when doing the arm bar, but you don't have to be strong to make it work as stated. Defense's such as this are especially effective for short people and females. If you are bigger, than it just works that much better.

With your right hand. Which hand are you trapping, left or right? Is you right hand on his right wrist for the open arm bar. I don't see it. Maybe my feet are off. You started in a right lead, right?
I think from a right lead to move your left foot 90 degrees you have to move both feet. I do wnat to try and picture this one if you could try and figure why I can't picture it.

I do try and not cross my hands which would be the case if I used my right hand to trap his right hand. Depending on my feet positioning. He can trap 2 of my hands with 1 of his (because my right hand is now on the left side of my body) and if my left foot is back it leaves my left way to far away from being useful.

Any way I would like ti picture your technique. Thanx.

James Kovacich

03-08-2003, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by sweeper
well I like to out fight.. I'm just not good enough to fight on the inside against someone who is good on the inside or avoid being taken down if someone is a good grappler. When I'm standing up I like to fight in what would be an outside boxing range (in western boxing), I come in closer only when I have put the opponant on the deffencive. I can function closer but not optimaly, it isn't my comfort zone by any means (unless the other person is clueless in wich case I just try to stick my hands to them and apply alot of forward preasure and run em into something). to keep in my comfort zone I tend to use alot of thrusting kicks. also alot of toe kicks and kicks with the edge of my foot to scrape up the other person's shin.. the latter is to anoy people the former to keep range. Also like thai kicks to sweep people's lead foot out.

To deffend against a right cross, it depends on alot of things but genneraly I would either sink back with a fronmt thrust or a side kick to the shin/knee or body or I would try to cut off the angle of the punch/jam it with my left and simultaniously throw ajab (if I was right lead, cross if left) and than left turning hook, probably followed by a left side kick to the ribs or a left hook kick to the back/ side of their right knee and go from there.

Basicly I realy like striking things.. wetherI'm on the ground, inside or where ever I look for a striking solution, and if I'm offered a submision I usualy want to throw in a strike right before taking it. most of the time ground fighting you can throw alot of little strikes in that sort of anoy/distract your opponant, standing grappling I try to get a stalemate, I try to match up our arms so they can't strike or lock mine and I try to keep my footing so it's hard to get me down. usualy I try to headbutt in that situation.

I like to start in the clinch while training. I think it is overlooked as far as training goes. Everbody has offense and defense from the outside, inside and the ground. But the clinch is where "some" lose it.

I usually start from a right lead, it works well for standup and grappling. With a right cross, I could either use my right to stop the right cross. Depending on mt feet positioning and how fast the punch is and the angle of the punch. If I'm a little out to the left, I would use my right back of my hand for the interception. If I was a little out to the right, them I would use my right palm for the interception or I could step in and intercept with my left rear and execute the a direct right, punch, eyejab or anything appropriate.

Understanding the interception is te key. It is what sets your opponent off his game and into your game. Intercepting should not be elaborate or fancy. Just stop the attack and react, simple and direct.

Johnathan Napalm

03-09-2003, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by Yiliquan1 ....If someone tries a high hand fake, I go for a nice low kick. If someone tries a low kick fake, I aim to put a fist sized hole in the middle of their forehead.

Ultimately, though, the opponent's intent is what causes the Yili practitioner to move. You will know what is coming, and getting out of the way (at minimum) is easier done than explained. After that, it's all gravy and grits...

Some day, I'll drop by to see how that is done ;)

Disco

03-09-2003, 04:40 PM

Sorry if I was confusing. I will try to elaborate if I can. The attackers right hand has grabbed you and he is going to deliver a left hand punch (If you are talking about a right lead punch, then were into something different). I must preface this statement with the fact that all this happens rather quickly.

I trap his right hand/wrist with my right hand. Yes, I cross my body, but the entire movement is so quick your not in any additional trouble. My left arm is already on the outside of his right arm (were face to face). you can in fact now make an inside block with your left arm into the top portion of his right elbow. As you are doing the block, you will rotate your body to your right. you are also turning the hand/wrist clockwise (just a little turn of the wrist does a lot, it rolls the elbow into a strees position, you don't need a full wrist rotation). We like to use the term "Opening the gate". In military terms "Right Face". You are pivoting on your left foot while you swing your right leg around. You are now facing sideways to the attacker and you have actually pulled him slightly forward off balance. You are now in a position to sidekick to the knee, ankle or stomach. Depending upon the intensity of the block and rotating movement, you could snap the elbow. The aspect that makes this technique work is that you are going after two joints. The elbow and the wrist. We have tried this on many really big guys, weight lifters and body builders in training. There was no way that any of them were able to fight the move, and we did try. The pressure on the elbow was really severe. Now on some, we did have to make the blocking move a little more intense, but the outcome was the same. They all wound up in the same position. Now there is no way that this works in training going slow. Going against power to power with these guys we lose. But with the speed aspect we achieve the proper leverage. Now against the average guy in the street. Lots of pain and something may get broken or at the least hyper extended. I'll just stop right here, because from this position, your can do any number of things, whatever your personal preferance should be.

Now if I'm still confusing, try this. Just thought of this as a simpler example. Just the very basic move with no traps. Put both arms shoulder high with elbows bent. You now look like a football goal post. Now just right face and watch where your left arm contacts your partners arm. I'm sorry if this still makes no sense. The old saying a picture is worth a thousand words sure holds true. I'll attempt to see if I can get some pictures and post them. The move is so easy and so very tasteful for inducing pain

James Kovacich

03-10-2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Disco
Sorry if I was confusing. I will try to elaborate if I can. The attackers right hand has grabbed you and he is going to deliver a left hand punch (If you are talking about a right lead punch, then were into something different). I must preface this statement with the fact that all this happens rather quickly.

I trap his right hand/wrist with my right hand. Yes, I cross my body, but the entire movement is so quick your not in any additional trouble. My left arm is already on the outside of his right arm (were face to face). you can in fact now make an inside block with your left arm into the top portion of his right elbow. As you are doing the block, you will rotate your body to your right. you are also turning the hand/wrist clockwise (just a little turn of the wrist does a lot, it rolls the elbow into a strees position, you don't need a full wrist rotation). We like to use the term "Opening the gate". In military terms "Right Face". You are pivoting on your left foot while you swing your right leg around. You are now facing sideways to the attacker and you have actually pulled him slightly forward off balance. You are now in a position to sidekick to the knee, ankle or stomach. Depending upon the intensity of the block and rotating movement, you could snap the elbow. The aspect that makes this technique work is that you are going after two joints. The elbow and the wrist. We have tried this on many really big guys, weight lifters and body builders in training. There was no way that any of them were able to fight the move, and we did try. The pressure on the elbow was really severe. Now on some, we did have to make the blocking move a little more intense, but the outcome was the same. They all wound up in the same position. Now there is no way that this works in training going slow. Going against power to power with these guys we lose. But with the speed aspect we achieve the proper leverage. Now against the average guy in the street. Lots of pain and something may get broken or at the least hyper extended. I'll just stop right here, because from this position, your can do any number of things, whatever your personal preferance should be.

Now if I'm still confusing, try this. Just thought of this as a simpler example. Just the very basic move with no traps. Put both arms shoulder high with elbows bent. You now look like a football goal post. Now just right face and watch where your left arm contacts your partners arm. I'm sorry if this still makes no sense. The old saying a picture is worth a thousand words sure holds true. I'll attempt to see if I can get some pictures and post them. The move is so easy and so very tasteful for inducing pain

Thanx, buddy. I just copied it to word so that I could walk through it.

James Kovacich

03-11-2003, 05:58 PM

Okay, heres my next technique question.

How do you defend against someone shootin' in for your legs?

I will generally sprawl my legs and go down with them but if I'm quick I like to position my two arms below their armpits, controlling their arm movement and keeping their energy going upward rather than downward.

Disco

03-11-2003, 06:41 PM

There are two things that I like to do. The size of the attacker usaually determines the technique. For bigger attacker's I will move into them as they are coming forward and deliver a knee strike. You would be surprised what moving forward does to their timing and balance. After the knee strike, an elbow strike. Either down strike or sideways to the head.

The second technique (smaller attackers). I'll sprawl backwards, not to deep and catch the attackers shoulders. My right hand under his left shoulder and my left hand on top of his right shoulder. Push down with my left and pull up with my right. Sends them flying past you. This is a timing move that calls for some practice.

Question, have you had a chance to try the other technique we discussed?

Johnathan Napalm

03-11-2003, 07:23 PM

Cruentus

03-11-2003, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
If memory serves me well, I remember Guo Ronin posted something to the effect that if you immediately take your pants off, that would have a drastic deterrence effect on further aggression. :D

I guess that depends on what the shooter is after!:rofl:

pesilat

03-11-2003, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by akja
Okay, heres my next technique question.

How do you defend against someone shootin' in for your legs?

I will generally sprawl my legs and go down with them but if I'm quick I like to position my two arms below their armpits, controlling their arm movement and keeping their energy going upward rather than downward.

One that I really like (I got from Guru Stevan Plinck at a seminar and I hope I can do it justice in this explanation).

Angle toward one of the guy's arms, drop your weight to match his level, then use both arms to attack one of his arms and, through his arm, attack his axis. I found that this method not only did a lot to prevent the takedown, it also gave me ready access to a variety of other options like locks, strikes, and sweeps.

Mike

James Kovacich

03-12-2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by pesilat
One that I really like (I got from Guru Stevan Plinck at a seminar and I hope I can do it justice in this explanation).

Angle toward one of the guy's arms, drop your weight to match his level, then use both arms to attack one of his arms and, through his arm, attack his axis. I found that this method not only did a lot to prevent the takedown, it also gave me ready access to a variety of other options like locks, strikes, and sweeps.

Mike

I can't remember the name. But isn't that an actual takedown?

Like he jabs and you take the arm with both of your arms. One hand at the wrist and the other closer to the shoulder. And you apply the pressure betwwen his elbow and shoulder while controlling the wrist and take him down.

pesilat

03-12-2003, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by akja
I can't remember the name. But isn't that an actual takedown?

Like he jabs and you take the arm with both of your arms. One hand at the wrist and the other closer to the shoulder. And you apply the pressure betwwen his elbow and shoulder while controlling the wrist and take him down.

Sure. That's one option. But not the only one :)

Mike

Johnathan Napalm

03-12-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by chufeng
...In YiLi, we also train to take a good solid shot, so if something does get through, we just shake it off...

How do you shake off a MuayThai roundhouse to your thigh? Or worse, your neck/head?

Matt Stone

03-12-2003, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
How do you shake off a MuayThai roundhouse to your thigh? Or worse, your neck/head?

That would depend on where I got hit on the thigh... If it hits high on the leg near my glut minimus, no worries. If it hits on the midline of the lateral aspect of the TFL (tensor fasciae latae), then I'm likely to be a hurtin' unit... ;)

Hits to my head are usually more damaging to the person hitting me! :D But obviously they are a tad tough to "suck up."

I'll take your comments as legitimate ones rather than the typical "let's try to poke holes in something somebody said" comments that often follow right along after comments like we have made here...

I have taken very solid shots from Chufeng, and when ready, I have perservered... I have taken full power shots from our junior students with little concern for my own well being (they actually felt kind of nice). It can be done. I'm not saying that I'm invincible... Hope I made that clear.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

James Kovacich

03-12-2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Disco
There are two things that I like to do. The size of the attacker usaually determines the technique. For bigger attacker's I will move into them as they are coming forward and deliver a knee strike. You would be surprised what moving forward does to their timing and balance. After the knee strike, an elbow strike. Either down strike or sideways to the head.

The second technique (smaller attackers). I'll sprawl backwards, not to deep and catch the attackers shoulders. My right hand under his left shoulder and my left hand on top of his right shoulder. Push down with my left and pull up with my right. Sends them flying past you. This is a timing move that calls for some practice.

Question, have you had a chance to try the other technique we discussed?

Your second defense will work, its a good controlling defense but your first one, I have doubts. You will be giving him your knee, making the takedown easier. His will be low and shooting for your legs. You can knee the head, maybe with your hands controlling the back of his head but its way to dangerous.

If he's fast, the sprawl will take you to any number of various holds or submissions. One thing I don't do is use a technique that has the possibility of making their technique successful.

chufeng

03-12-2003, 03:22 PM

I have taken very solid shots from Chufeng, and when ready, I have perservered

...and when not ready, or when "surprised," he's folded like a house of cards...
No, we aren't invincible...we can and do get hurt from time to time...again, I doubt that I'll find myself in a situation where I will ever really need to use YiLi for defense against physical attack...if I do, my appearance is an asset...(slightly overweight, graying and balding, with a noticable limp)...surprise will on my side...
A Muay Thai attack to the leg still requires INTENT...How would I personally deal with it? I'd have to be there to know...many of my defenses just happen...I don't think or anticipate the attack.

Hope that helps...

:asian:
chufeng

Matt Stone

03-12-2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by chufeng
...and when not ready, or when "surprised," he's folded like a house of cards...

Thanks for keeping me honest...

House of cards doesn't quite illustrate quite adequately enough...

Last good solid shot I got (I remember it as a hammerfist kind of impact across my abdomen) had me down for the count for a good while... Took a nice panther fist kind of thing into the pocket of my shoulder which had me coughing in fits and unable to breathe normally for what felt like three weeks.

If I'm "in the zone," or whatever you want to call it, I can recall my opponent's strikes striking with all the force of a light rain. Just one of those things I keep working at...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

James Kovacich

03-12-2003, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by chufeng

No, we aren't invincible...we can and do get hurt from time to time...

I'd have to be there to know...many of my defenses just happen...I don't think or anticipate the attack.

Hope that helps...

:asian:
chufeng

I think thats an indicater that "you've arrived." If not yet, soon!

Disco

03-12-2003, 08:36 PM

The first defense I mentioned, the knee, was banned from football because it worked. This was the early years of football when many things were allowed. Like anything in the arts, not every technique is fashionable for all practicioners.

James Kovacich

03-13-2003, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Disco
The first defense I mentioned, the knee, was banned from football because it worked. This was the early years of football when many things were allowed. Like anything in the arts, not every technique is fashionable for all practicioners.

I don't discount the knee. The shooter is attacking your legs and using the knee places the knee closer to his hands.

People really underestimate how quick shooters are and how fast a takedown takes place.

A better defense strategy is to neutralize the attack first, then use an appropriate technique.

By this I mean. A shooter is attacking my legs, To neutralize the take down I might need to sprawel my legs and go down with him and work my way back to my feet.

Considering you chose a standup technique using the knee. It would make more sense to use one that mentioned earlier which is easier and will set up you knee safely.

When the shooter comes at you, his arms will try to wrap around your legs. That is your opening. He's opening his arms for you, take advantage. You position your arms under his armpits and control his arm movement preventing his takedown and keeping his energy up, opposite of what he wants.

From that position, you can use your knees or a guillitine choke or just break away and fight your fight.

There is no one answer to any technique and for differant people they will be differant as well as you stated.

But fight strategys vary based on ones physical structure and fught attributes.

My strategy. If you want my legs. I'm not going to make it easier for you. If you want to go toe to toe, I'm not going to make it easier for you. If you want to grapple. I'm not going to make it easier for you. If you want to run me over. I'm not going to make it easier for you.

We are all differant. Some can't fight like this because they hae minimal grappling exposure. You will need to practice in all ranges together and each range individually.

But if you don't. Not a problem. There are always other ways. I just minimize the effects of my attacker along with how I react to my attacker.

The same goes with a striker. A good striker will be able to it you. If you think nobody can touch you then you've already lost. If a striker is attacking me, I will use my attributes to minimize the effects of his strikes and and impose my fight on him.

sweeper

03-14-2003, 02:00 AM

yeah I just don't have the skill to fight close up inside against another skilled infighter. If the person doesn't know what they are doing than no problem, but against anyone who has a bit of experiience I would rather put them on the deffencive first than go inside.

I actualy prefer to be in a clinch to infighting, and when things go bad in fighting I usualy look to try to stalemate the upper body through a clinch of some sort and use kicks or other means to get an edge.

When deffending against a shoot I prefer to divert their body by controling thier head and punch them, if I'm to slow than I sprawl. But if I don't see it comming I usualy end up kneeing them because I'll see the lung but not read it as a shoot so I try to stop them with a thrust kick and nail them on the way up.

James Kovacich

03-14-2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by sweeper
yeah I just don't have the skill to fight close up inside against another skilled infighter. If the person doesn't know what they are doing than no problem, but against anyone who has a bit of experiience I would rather put them on the deffencive first than go inside.

I actualy prefer to be in a clinch to infighting, and when things go bad in fighting I usualy look to try to stalemate the upper body through a clinch of some sort and use kicks or other means to get an edge.

When deffending against a shoot I prefer to divert their body by controling thier head and punch them, if I'm to slow than I sprawl. But if I don't see it comming I usualy end up kneeing them because I'll see the lung but not read it as a shoot so I try to stop them with a thrust kick and nail them on the way up.

Like me, if he's a good puncher, I want to do something else also. Its natural for me to throw something else at him, like another range or style of fighting.

Training in the differant ranges makes it easy (when you have to fight a real fight) to discover what ranges they can not fight in. There are differant styles of standup fighting. fighting a boxer type, you use Gung-Fu or Thai, just differant enough that they may suufer. If its not enough, then grappling may be needed.

Today more and more people are putting more time in on the ground. Those that neglect this range are going to produce a generation of students that are lagging. They will stand by their teachings and it will happen.

When training "other" ranges as little as 20 minutes a day will help you greatly fight your fight.

As far as fighting inside with a skilled fighter, I will take a shot or two, if it means that I get a chance to find the range that he can't fight in. Also when fighting, taking a shot is always going to be minimized by your body movement.

If he can figt in all ranges, then "it's on!"

Johnathan Napalm

03-14-2003, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
....I'll take your comments as legitimate ones rather than the typical "let's try to poke holes in something somebody said" comments that often follow right along after comments like we have made here...

It was asked in reference to
: Originally posted by chufeng
...In YiLi, we also train to take a good solid shot, so if something does get through, we just shake it off...

I was just wandering how EXACTLY you Yili gangs train "to take a good solid shot", of which, MT Roundhouse to the thigh, is as solid a shot as it gets and has put down many good figthers from TKD, Karate and KungFu, and what have you. Many of these challengers stepped up to the MT fighters and the MT fighters just opened up on them and DOWN their go, limping to their eventual defeat. They were totally defenseless in the barrage of roundhouse to the thighs.

So HOW EXACTLY do you train to take a good solid shot, in YiLi?

James Kovacich

03-14-2003, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
It was asked in reference to

I was just wandering how EXACTLY you Yili gangs train "to take a good solid shot", of which, MT Roundhouse to the thigh, is as solid a shot as it gets and has put down many good figthers from TKD, Karate and KungFu, and what have you. Many of these challengers stepped up to the MT fighters and the MT fighters just opened up on them and DOWN their go, limping to their eventual defeat. They were totally defenseless in the barrage of roundhouse to the thighs.

So HOW EXACTLY do you train to take a good solid shot, in YiLi?

GOOD QUESTION! But as long as we are talking "no rules," there is no martial art ever developed that does not have weaknesses.

I expect to take shots, but with skill I expect them to be closer to glancing blows. But if I am hit solid, I am at home on the ground! At thats my point, time after time! Everybody thinks that they can't be tackled or knocked down.

Train for the worst and the better in you will come out.

Mormegil

03-14-2003, 10:36 PM

For the MT kick to the thigh...if I can't shield it in time (which I'm not even sure I really want to do), I would try to cut kick to the supporting leg. So, from a left lead (matching), I quickly step forward and right to get out power arc of the kick, and deliver a left hook kick to the supporting leg, probably with my own shin. Hopefully they would have fallen having their supporting leg knocked out from under them. If not, or even while they're falling (if I can be that fast), I follow with a R cross (I'm already would up for it), lead punch (hook, uppercut etc), and cross. Next move depends on the position they are in.

If I really didn't see the kick coming, and was immenently going to be hit, and there was nothing I could do to move out of the way or directly counter, I would roll my lead (left if matching), inward so the kick hits my hamstrings instead of the side of my thigh. I think I can take a lot more punishment there, and it will be less likely to buckle my knee. I'm not turned to the right, and will follow with a cross, hook, cross combo, maybe finishing with a lead kick.

I just wanted to add a couple of variations on the defense to the Right cross.

Another Kali counter (learned studying Lucaylucay kali / JKD), would be to slip outside, with a vertical elbow scissors - gunting to the wrist of forearm (r rising vertical elbow covering the face with a simultaenous l lowering parry to guide the arm into the hit. An immediate change in direction of both my arms, with my right arm going donw, and my right hand hooking to try to either grab, or merely hook his arm, pulling towards me, and a simultaenous left rising elbow - this should sandwich and either break the elbow or more likely in my case hyperextend it. This follows with a left finger jab to the face or eyes (sunkite) as I lower forearm onto their bicep to trap the arm with a simultaenous right horizontal elbow to the jaw or area between deltoid and bicep depending on the actual range (my own chin will be tucked under my right shoulder to guard against his left. I would then extend both my arms, right arm extending to grab the back of his neck, and left arm extending downward and outward to hook under right elbow, pull down with my right, and push up with my left for the head and neck throw previously described (puter kepala), with an optional right knee into the chest prior to the throw. I think that uses the "cadena de mano" princial - chain of hands.

A real elegant counter from Panantukan (Pilipino boxing) would simply be the sliding leverage punch with a standard boxing follow up. So as they right cross in matching leads, step out left with a fade, and a simultaenous lead vertical fist with the forearm cutting into his arm. The initial strike with the blade of the forearm should knock them a little of balance if it was a commited punch, and allow you the "guide" to follow the punch up to their face. In addition, it should lower the crossing arm making the face more accessible to a punch, as a good cross will cover the jab and cheek. The intial hit would hopefully clear the arm out of the way and allow follow up punches.

For that very first scenario, I am assuming that your arms are both on the outside. I was thinking, I would probably trap with the left arm across his body also trapping his left arm at the forearm (since it's already higher, and his right arm "looks" more tense), with a simultaenous right punch upward to the jaw. After that, I'm thinking I would step with my right, DEEP forward and left to get behind his right leg, as I crash my right forearm into his chest, keeping my right hand at his face or neck pushing him to my left. My left arm would probably sweep outdownward and out carrying his right arm with a grab. If I do this right, he will be leaning backwards, and be very off balance, and I will be leaning mostly forward. I would then do an outside right backsweep (biset luar) against his right leg, or if I'm unsure of my footing, twist my body to the left about 60 degrees, to get to the same position of the sweep, without moving my legs, instead moving my oponent over my "sweeping" leg. So this is a mix of Wing Chun/Jun Fan and Silat.

Another good follow up from the Wing Chun trapping using silat would be a kenjit siko, or an elbow compression. Basically, with the right hand, smack the face or chest as you step in DEEP with the left behind him (hip to hip), sink your hip down, and follow with your left forearm across his body or with a punch wedging/pushing him to your left. If done right, he will be 90 degrees off from the way he was originally (due to your nudge and wedge), and be leaning slight back over your left thigh. If he hasn't fallen yet, jam your left elbow into his face or the middle of his chest to drop him over your knee. A friend of mine into western wrestling didn't know what hit him when I pulled this one on him (sapus and bisets didn't work too well on him, as he switched his weight too quickly for me - I really should just have stepped on his feet instead).

chufeng

03-14-2003, 10:36 PM

So HOW EXACTLY do you train to take a good solid shot, in YiLi?

By taking good solid shots...

I'll have to add the MT roundhouse to our "defense against" listing...I'll keep you posted...

:asian:
chufeng

James Kovacich

03-14-2003, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by chufeng
By taking good solid shots...

I'll have to add the MT roundhouse to our "defense against" listing...I'll keep you posted...

:asian:
chufeng

While your at it, you could add my secret sneaky move!:D

James Kovacich

03-14-2003, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
For the MT kick to the thigh...if I can't shield it in time (which I'm not even sure I really want to do), I would try to cut kick to the supporting leg. So, from a left lead (matching), I quickly step forward and right to get out power arc of the kick, and deliver a left hook kick to the supporting leg, probably with my own shin. Hopefully they would have fallen having their supporting leg knocked out from under them. If not, or even while they're falling (if I can be that fast), I follow with a R cross (I'm already would up for it), lead punch (hook, uppercut etc), and cross. Next move depends on the position they are in.

If I really didn't see the kick coming, and was immenently going to be hit, and there was nothing I could do to move out of the way or directly counter, I would roll my lead (left if matching), inward so the kick hits my hamstrings instead of the side of my thigh. I think I can take a lot more punishment there, and it will be less likely to buckle my knee. I'm not turned to the right, and will follow with a cross, hook, cross combo, maybe finishing with a lead kick.

I just wanted to add a couple of variations on the defense to the Right cross.

Another Kali counter (learned studying Lucaylucay kali / JKD), would be to slip outside, with a vertical elbow scissors - gunting to the wrist of forearm (r rising vertical elbow covering the face with a simultaenous l lowering parry to guide the arm into the hit. An immediate change in direction of both my arms, with my right arm going donw, and my right hand hooking to try to either grab, or merely hook his arm, pulling towards me, and a simultaenous left rising elbow - this should sandwich and either break the elbow or more likely in my case hyperextend it. This follows with a left finger jab to the face or eyes (sunkite) as I lower forearm onto their bicep to trap the arm with a simultaenous right horizontal elbow to the jaw or area between deltoid and bicep depending on the actual range (my own chin will be tucked under my right shoulder to guard against his left. I would then extend both my arms, right arm extending to grab the back of his neck, and left arm extending downward and outward to hook under right elbow, pull down with my right, and push up with my left for the head and neck throw previously described (puter kepala), with an optional right knee into the chest prior to the throw. I think that uses the "cadena de mano" princial - chain of hands.

A real elegant counter from Panantukan (Pilipino boxing) would simply be the sliding leverage punch with a standard boxing follow up. So as they right cross in matching leads, step out left with a fade, and a simultaenous lead vertical fist with the forearm cutting into his arm. The initial strike with the blade of the forearm should knock them a little of balance if it was a commited punch, and allow you the "guide" to follow the punch up to their face. In addition, it should lower the crossing arm making the face more accessible to a punch, as a good cross will cover the jab and cheek. The intial hit would hopefully clear the arm out of the way and allow follow up punches.

For that very first scenario, I am assuming that your arms are both on the outside. I was thinking, I would probably trap with the left arm across his body also trapping his left arm at the forearm (since it's already higher, and his right arm "looks" more tense), with a simultaenous right punch upward to the jaw. After that, I'm thinking I would step with my right, DEEP forward and left to get behind his right leg, as I crash my right forearm into his chest, keeping my right hand at his face or neck pushing him to my left. My left arm would probably sweep outdownward and out carrying his right arm with a grab. If I do this right, he will be leaning backwards, and be very off balance, and I will be leaning mostly forward. I would then do an outside right backsweep (biset luar) against his right leg, or if I'm unsure of my footing, twist my body to the left about 60 degrees, to get to the same position of the sweep, without moving my legs, instead moving my oponent over my "sweeping" leg. So this is a mix of Wing Chun/Jun Fan and Silat.

Another good follow up from the Wing Chun trapping using silat would be a kenjit siko, or an elbow compression. Basically, with the right hand, smack the face or chest as you step in DEEP with the left behind him (hip to hip), sink your hip down, and follow with your left forearm across his body or with a punch wedging/pushing him to your left. If done right, he will be 90 degrees off from the way he was originally (due to your nudge and wedge), and be leaning slight back over your left thigh. If he hasn't fallen yet, jam your left elbow into his face or the middle of his chest to drop him over your knee. A friend of mine into western wrestling didn't know what hit him when I pulled this one on him (sapus and bisets didn't work too well on him, as he switched his weight too quickly for me - I really should just have stepped on his feet instead).

That was alot. I need to read that post a few more times to get it. I will get back with some questions. Thanx!

Erkki

03-14-2003, 10:59 PM

MT roundhouse kicks can be devastating, but only good, trained fighters can deliver them with sufficient power to take someone out right away. Most MT kicks from most people will take a couple of hits for the damage to take it's toll. Yeah, it hurts, but it doesn't immobilize you with one shot. If he gets you with more than one shot, you need to practice more or take up crochet.
Yili would respond well to that type of attack. A MT style roundhouse strikes with the shin, not the heel or ball of the foot. Therefore the attacker is closer. Which means it will take less time for the Yili defender to move into the defender and take his ground. This will do two things: It will change the focus of the kick, thereby making it far less potent, and it will catch the attacker in a vulnerable position (being on one leg), which will make it easier to take his ground. While he's flailing around trying to regain his root, he's open for pretty much anything.
Obviously, there are other ways to deal with this particular attack, but this is one of them.

sweeper

03-15-2003, 01:07 AM

well a thai style kick I would either close in and throw a cut kick or a thrust kick or step out and shield with the knee, if I can't step I just shield and if I can't shield I shift weight and turn the knee in, that can minimise the power alot. Now do you mean how do you train to take a direct kick? or how do you deal with them kick in genneral? I mean if I'm just standing there and don't react and a good thai style round kick lands on my thigh I'm probably gona fall over just because 50% of my weight is gona be on that leg, if I'm actualy fighting, unless I'm blind I cna't see that happening.

As to a thai kick to the head/neck, same thing, exceptI would be alot more likely to close and shield (with elbows/forearms)rather than pull out and shield and I might just sink back depending on range and try to bob/slip it. If I got hit in the head with one I would hope I could catch it on my forehead and be braced, otherwqise down I go.. If it hits my neck than down I go.

James Kovacich

03-17-2003, 07:52 PM

Whats your defense against a roundhose kick to the stomach? It could be rear leg or front leg or you could explain both.

Main point is its a mid level kick.

sweeper

03-17-2003, 09:11 PM

that deppends on wether it's an opening or if we are exchanging blows. If we are boxing and someone throws it in there I will probably try to close and punch them to take away their power, if we are outside and they are comming in on me I'll probably block with a knee/shin if it's lower torso, or an elbow/forearm in combination with my oposite sie hand for upper torso. If I can see it comming much in advance I'll probably sink back a little and try to catch it, or try to beat it with a side kick or front thrust.

Mormegil

03-18-2003, 02:41 AM

Originally posted by akja
Whats your defense against a roundhose kick to the stomach? It could be rear leg or front leg or you could explain both.

Main point is its a mid level kick.

I'm going with the rear leg example in matched left leads here:

I'll probably have to go back to the cut kick on this one, and do the same follow up as I described with the Muay Thai low line kick. Of course that's if I see it coming and can react.

Otherwise, I would probably try to step forward and left with my left foot, and back and right with my right foot to take some of the bite off it (Filipino triangle footwork), while doing a low boxing cover taking the hit with my forearm, and extending my left arm to cover my left and try to push them off balance. I'm not wound up for a right cross, left body hook, right cross, lead kick or better yet right downward overhead punch, left uppercut, right overhead punch, lead kick.

My Question:

How might some of you react or defend to this scenario:
Attacker slaps your lead hand out of the way with their rear hand and throws a simultaenous lead punch to your head. The slap is substantial and the direction is downwards and towards you, pinning your forearm to you floating ribs if done right.

If your curious, this is a Wing Chun / Jun Fan technique, called Pak Sao / Chun Choi (Jun Fan specifically, "flying Pak Sao")

pesilat

03-18-2003, 03:52 AM

Originally posted by akja
Whats your defense against a roundhose kick to the stomach? It could be rear leg or front leg or you could explain both.

Main point is its a mid level kick.

Well, since your first question was looking for stylistic responses, I'll stay in that vain.

I'll only deal specifically with the kick. The follow ups could be anything that suits the moment depending on the person's reaction/energy.

Kali:
Draw a blade and cut his leg. No blade? Fine. Pinalubos (sp?). Bring both hands down on the top of the kicking leg at about mid-calf while bringing my knee up into the underside between my hands, shearing motion between my knee and hands looking for fracture/break.

Silat:
Shelf the kick while moving toward the person - inside the arc of his power. Sweep the supporting leg.

Shen Chuan:
Step inside the arc of power, hook over the kicking leg, knee to one of the pressure points on the inside of the thigh of the standing leg, blend, sink toward a balance disruption point, and pivot to drop the guy.

Kuntao Silat:
Drop below kick, "monkey roll" through supporting leg for takedown (and probably leg break).

Mike

Mormegil

03-18-2003, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by pesilat

Kali:
Draw a blade and cut his leg. No blade? Fine. Pinalubos (sp?). Bring both hands down on the top of the kicking leg at about mid-calf while bringing my knee up into the underside between my hands, shearing motion between my knee and hands looking for fracture/break.

Mike

Any suggestions on this technique? I've been training it for a while, and I don't really feel to confident with it. 1) I'm afraid that the kick might go through my "sandwich" - though that probably shouldn't happen as long as my forearms are pointing slightly upwards to cover. 2) I feel off balance on one leg - at least with a Muay Thai shield, I'm leaning forward and can absorb the blow, with this, I'm not sure where my energy/weight/momentum should be going.

James Kovacich

03-18-2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Mormegil

My Question:

How might some of you react or defend to this scenario:
Attacker slaps your lead hand out of the way with their rear hand and throws a simultaenous lead punch to your head. The slap is substantial and the direction is downwards and towards you, pinning your forearm to you floating ribs if done right.

If your curious, this is a Wing Chun / Jun Fan technique, called Pak Sao / Chun Choi (Jun Fan specifically, "flying Pak Sao")

First depends on my footwork (placement, in motion etc). Second, assumming we are both right lead. My left hand can either catch your punch on the inside of your arm and continue to an eyejab or strike with the same arm (that was all one continous motion, 1 move, not 2). When I catch your hand it would be my back hand on your inside arm. OR.

My left hand catches the outside of your punching wrist, while re-positioning my lead foot to back, possibly pulling you or attempting a takedown.

The first would be quick natural reaction. While the second one is if you might be stronger than me and I need to call on other resources.

pesilat

03-18-2003, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
Any suggestions on this technique? I've been training it for a while, and I don't really feel to confident with it. 1) I'm afraid that the kick might go through my "sandwich" - though that probably shouldn't happen as long as my forearms are pointing slightly upwards to cover. 2) I feel off balance on one leg - at least with a Muay Thai shield, I'm leaning forward and can absorb the blow, with this, I'm not sure where my energy/weight/momentum should be going.

Generally, I find that problems like what you describe come from a lack of commitment (this may not be your problem, but it's the most common cause).

Always think "attack." Yes, you're right, if your elbows are down, then the kick usually won't get through. But if it does, it should have been slowed down. Some of the energy should have been bled off. Often, if it gets through, you can drop your arms, trap the leg, takedown and lock.

As far as your balance, try using the same body mechanics that you use for a Muay Thai knee. But instead of having your hands on the back of his head or body, they're on his leg. And instead of kneeing into his face/ribs, you're kneeing into his leg.

Hope that made sense and helps :)

Mike

pesilat

03-18-2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil

My Question:

How might some of you react or defend to this scenario:
Attacker slaps your lead hand out of the way with their rear hand and throws a simultaenous lead punch to your head. The slap is substantial and the direction is downwards and towards you, pinning your forearm to you floating ribs if done right.

If your curious, this is a Wing Chun / Jun Fan technique, called Pak Sao / Chun Choi (Jun Fan specifically, "flying Pak Sao")

I think the following would be applicable to all 4 of the arts I train in (though each would have a different flavor/emphasis/follow up).

As he pushes into me through the trapped arm, go with the energy of the push so I can pivot. Fire your other hand, elbow down, just over his incoming fist to cut his line, deflect his punch, and hit him in the face.

Of course, there are other possible answers, but this is one that I would personally consider a "preference" because of its use of economy of motion.

Mike

James Kovacich

03-18-2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by pesilat
Well, since your first question was looking for stylistic responses, I'll stay in that vain.

I'll only deal specifically with the kick. The follow ups could be anything that suits the moment depending on the person's reaction/energy.

Kali:
Draw a blade and cut his leg. No blade? Fine. Pinalubos (sp?). Bring both hands down on the top of the kicking leg at about mid-calf while bringing my knee up into the underside between my hands, shearing motion between my knee and hands looking for fracture/break.

Silat:
Shelf the kick while moving toward the person - inside the arc of his power. Sweep the supporting leg.

Shen Chuan:
Step inside the arc of power, hook over the kicking leg, knee to one of the pressure points on the inside of the thigh of the standing leg, blend, sink toward a balance disruption point, and pivot to drop the guy.

Kuntao Silat:
Drop below kick, "monkey roll" through supporting leg for takedown (and probably leg break).

Mike

Boy, you have a lot to draw from!

James Kovacich

03-18-2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
I'm going with the rear leg example in matched left leads here:

Otherwise, I would probably try to step forward and left with my left foot, and back and right with my right foot to take some of the bite off it (Filipino triangle footwork), while doing a low boxing cover taking the hit with my forearm, and extending my left arm to cover my left and try to push them off balance. I'm not wound up for a right cross, left body hook, right cross, lead kick or better yet right downward overhead punch, left uppercut, right overhead punch, lead kick.

Somebodys been woking with me on this type of footwork. I find it to work well with my body although I'm programmed more to go through my opponent than to "adjust" my feet in this way.

It will take some time, but once I've blended the "Kali" style footwork with my Jun Fan/Western Boxing style footwork, it will be a good flow.

Johnathan Napalm

03-18-2003, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
...... Of course that's if I see it coming and can react.....

lol Yes, EXACTLY! That is the KEY....

All the techniques posted by everyone are fine and dandy, and all that, if "you see the attack coming and can react.."

So how do you "see it coming"?

99 out of a hundred people, over-estimate they ability to react in time and under-estimate how fast the attack comes in. Sooo, get into the ring and SPAR!! lol

Johnathan Napalm

03-18-2003, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Erkki
MT roundhouse kicks can be devastating, but only good, trained fighters can deliver them with sufficient power to take someone out right away. Most MT kicks from most people will take a couple of hits for the damage to take it's toll. Yeah, it hurts, but it doesn't immobilize you with one shot. If he gets you with more than one shot, you need to practice more or take up crochet.
Yili would respond well to that type of attack. A MT style roundhouse strikes with the shin, not the heel or ball of the foot. Therefore the attacker is closer. Which means it will take less time for the Yili defender to move into the defender and take his ground. This will do two things: It will change the focus of the kick, thereby making it far less potent, and it will catch the attacker in a vulnerable position (being on one leg), which will make it easier to take his ground. While he's flailing around trying to regain his root, he's open for pretty much anything.
Obviously, there are other ways to deal with this particular attack, but this is one of them.

lol, you are assuming that the MT fighter is a one trick pony. All real attacks are in combo, ie, one attack with several follow up, each depending on the out come of the previous attack...

Johnathan Napalm

03-18-2003, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by akja
Whats your defense against a roundhose kick to the stomach? It could be rear leg or front leg or you could explain both.

Main point is its a mid level kick.

Raise your knee, turn it outward to intercept it. Shield your head/neck with your elbow, b/c that Roundhouse may actually go for your head. Seen that happened many times and down they went! lol

Immediately follow up with counter attack to break his momentum. Unless he is a moron, he is not taking just one shot at you. Always think follow-up.

Johnathan Napalm

03-18-2003, 08:32 PM

Mormegil

03-18-2003, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by pesilat
Generally, I find that problems like what you describe come from a lack of commitment (this may not be your problem, but it's the most common cause).

Always think "attack." Yes, you're right, if your elbows are down, then the kick usually won't get through. But if it does, it should have been slowed down. Some of the energy should have been bled off. Often, if it gets through, you can drop your arms, trap the leg, takedown and lock.

As far as your balance, try using the same body mechanics that you use for a Muay Thai knee. But instead of having your hands on the back of his head or body, they're on his leg. And instead of kneeing into his face/ribs, you're kneeing into his leg.

Hope that made sense and helps :)

Mike

That does. Thanks. I really like the idea of doing it like a Muay Thai knee. I can't wait to try that out!

pesilat

03-18-2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by akja
Boy, you have a lot to draw from!

LOL. Yup. I'm still a relative youngster, but I've toddled around the block a couple of times and am familiar with some of the houses in the neighborhood :)

Mike

pesilat

03-18-2003, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
That does. Thanks. I really like the idea of doing it like a Muay Thai knee. I can't wait to try that out!

Cool. Glad I could help :D

Mike

Erkki

03-18-2003, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
lol, you are assuming that the MT fighter is a one trick pony. All real attacks are in combo, ie, one attack with several follow up, each depending on the out come of the previous attack...

Actually, I assume that all attacks will be in the form of a combo. Whatever he throws, it doesn't matter. My objective is to take him out before he can fire that second technique with enough power to do any damage. How do I do that? It's called timing.

Mormegil

03-18-2003, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Yeah, that would do it, if you time it fast enough.

If however, as it most likely to happen, the kick comes too fast, then pray that you have conditioned your shin, and use a shin to shin block. That would be the shortest reaction time counter.

Good point. I assume you're talking about the first technique, the cut kick. I don't do as much sparring as I would like, in fact I only go to the gym once a week (I'm in grad school, so broke and no free time). So honestly, I can pick up most people's Thai kick and counter with a cut kick, when thrown ALONE. In combo...well, I'm just not there yet. In that case, I'd have to go with the oh ***** technique of the leg roll, the second one I mentioned.

Just to clarify on the cut kick, I'm not trying to beat the oponent to the punch...er kick. Firstly, I'm sidestepping to take the bite out of the kick. That takes about as long (maybe 10-15% longer) to do that raise my leg for the shin block. His kick should then land at my back, at the point of his knee or thigh (less power), at the end of his power arc ("zero pressure" principal from Kali). Just after his kick lands, and WAY before he plants down, I should have made contact against the supporting leg.

I really liked the responses to my question. It's really interesting to see a non Jun Fan / Wing Chun response to a Jun Fan / Wing Chun technique. Obviously, I'm use to training with the expected technique and counter from that art.

Akja, for every counter there is a counter. I now this could keep on going, but I just had to throw in my response to that reaction. So, I'm talking about the first response, the natural one, inside block to eye jab. Once I felt the obstruction on my right lead punching hand, I would probably automatically shoot my left fist up in an uppercut, sliding over your right arm to maintain the trap for a punch to your chin. Now here's the tricky part. Knowing me, if your block was relatively light, not crossing the center-line much (as I think it would be if you were to continue to an eye shot in one motion), my right hand would pull down into a guarding hand (vertical palm facing left), hooking your forearm in to block the eye shot. These would be at the same time, left punch / right guarding hand (don't remember the Cantonese name). This would be immediately followed with a left slapping trap (pak sao) to your left hand (grabbing the forearm) to replace the pressure from my right hand that just left, I would also try to keep pressure on your right arm at the elbow with my forewarm forcing in and down into your floating ribs to maintain the trap on your right. I mentioned the right arm just left, it went for a punch upward to the face or jab. I think I would probably go to the kenjit siko again, as I mentioned before.

Now I mentioned the tricky thing. Well, back at your block, if it was a really, really strong block, knocking my hand away from center line, I would and take your energy from your block, dropping my arm, as I left slap block (pak sao) your left arm as it comes in for the strike clearing out of the way, leading into my right arm for a back fist coming from behind and under my left arm (think of a speed bag motion).

That's what I would LIKE to do. What I would probably do, is this: As you block hard, I woudl sense the "emptiness" and do the wrong thing - left uppercut as I would in the original scenario. I think I would still attempt the right back fist with the left block, but it would rpbably be too late. I would have been nailed in the eye. I don't like that trade.

Pesilat. I really like your counter. As the punch comes in, would you say it would be prudent for me to execute a right wing block (boang sao) to counter your sliding leverage punch? Depending on the energy, I would follow by an elbow rollover to a left grab (lop sao) and right backfist , or a right lop sao and left uppercut, followed by a slapping block to the left arm and right punch as mentioned above.

Of course a counter to the lop saos would be a shoulder check and or head butt. Man, it never ends!

pesilat

03-19-2003, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by Mormegil
Pesilat. I really like your counter. As the punch comes in, would you say it would be prudent for me to execute a right wing block (boang sao) to counter your sliding leverage punch? Depending on the energy, I would follow by an elbow rollover to a left grab (lop sao) and right backfist , or a right lop sao and left uppercut, followed by a slapping block to the left arm and right punch as mentioned above.

Yes, a boang sao would be a valid counter if you could change the energy of your punch quick enough.

But here's another possibility. Pivot clockwise and right tan sao while shooting a punch over my trapped arm with your left hand. This requires a less dramatic change in structure (i.e.: going from a punch to tan sao vs. punch to bong sao).

Mike

sweeper

03-19-2003, 01:56 AM

in responce to Mormegil's question, I would most likely use my rear hand to stop the lead punch wial sinking back and stopping their forward motion with a lowline sidekick or a front thrust to their thigh/hip. But if I was going forward at the time and couldn't sink I would probably use my back hand to ntry to nock the punch outside and slip inside than try to tie them up in a clinch of some sort or if that wasn't posable, thrust kick.

James Kovacich

03-19-2003, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Mormegil
Good point. I assume you're talking about the first technique, the cut kick. I don't do as much sparring as I would like, in fact I only go to the gym once a week (I'm in grad school, so broke and no free time). So honestly, I can pick up most people's Thai kick and counter with a cut kick, when thrown ALONE. In combo...well, I'm just not there yet. In that case, I'd have to go with the oh ***** technique of the leg roll, the second one I mentioned.

Just to clarify on the cut kick, I'm not trying to beat the oponent to the punch...er kick. Firstly, I'm sidestepping to take the bite out of the kick. That takes about as long (maybe 10-15% longer) to do that raise my leg for the shin block. His kick should then land at my back, at the point of his knee or thigh (less power), at the end of his power arc ("zero pressure" principal from Kali). Just after his kick lands, and WAY before he plants down, I should have made contact against the supporting leg.

I really liked the responses to my question. It's really interesting to see a non Jun Fan / Wing Chun response to a Jun Fan / Wing Chun technique. Obviously, I'm use to training with the expected technique and counter from that art.

Akja, for every counter there is a counter. I now this could keep on going, but I just had to throw in my response to that reaction. So, I'm talking about the first response, the natural one, inside block to eye jab. Once I felt the obstruction on my right lead punching hand, I would probably automatically shoot my left fist up in an uppercut, sliding over your right arm to maintain the trap for a punch to your chin. Now here's the tricky part. Knowing me, if your block was relatively light, not crossing the center-line much (as I think it would be if you were to continue to an eye shot in one motion), my right hand would pull down into a guarding hand (vertical palm facing left), hooking your forearm in to block the eye shot. These would be at the same time, left punch / right guarding hand (don't remember the Cantonese name). This would be immediately followed with a left slapping trap (pak sao) to your left hand (grabbing the forearm) to replace the pressure from my right hand that just left, I would also try to keep pressure on your right arm at the elbow with my forewarm forcing in and down into your floating ribs to maintain the trap on your right. I mentioned the right arm just left, it went for a punch upward to the face or jab. I think I would probably go to the kenjit siko again, as I mentioned before.

Now I mentioned the tricky thing. Well, back at your block, if it was a really, really strong block, knocking my hand away from center line, I would and take your energy from your block, dropping my arm, as I left slap block (pak sao) your left arm as it comes in for the strike clearing out of the way, leading into my right arm for a back fist coming from behind and under my left arm (think of a speed bag motion).

That's what I would LIKE to do. What I would probably do, is this: As you block hard, I woudl sense the "emptiness" and do the wrong thing - left uppercut as I would in the original scenario. I think I would still attempt the right back fist with the left block, but it would rpbably be too late. I would have been nailed in the eye. I don't like that trade.

Pesilat. I really like your counter. As the punch comes in, would you say it would be prudent for me to execute a right wing block (boang sao) to counter your sliding leverage punch? Depending on the energy, I would follow by an elbow rollover to a left grab (lop sao) and right backfist , or a right lop sao and left uppercut, followed by a slapping block to the left arm and right punch as mentioned above.

Of course a counter to the lop saos would be a shoulder check and or head butt. Man, it never ends!

YES, offense is defense and defense is offense. The counter you mentioned is too close to what I do. When someone knows the way I fight, its time to change it up. A differant range or style to see what they will "give me."

When I talked about going through my opponent. I wasn't talking about "hard" blocks. I meant that I'm more at home going forward than backward. I have a better base, thus better technique. In your example of your counter and my example of the "change up," pretty much explains it.

I'm not set on one way although I do prefer some ways over others.

Johnathan Napalm

03-19-2003, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
My Question:

How might some of you react or defend to this scenario:
Attacker slaps your lead hand out of the way with their rear hand and throws a simultaenous lead punch to your head. The slap is substantial and the direction is downwards and towards you, pinning your forearm to you floating ribs if done right.

If your curious, this is a Wing Chun / Jun Fan technique, called Pak Sao / Chun Choi (Jun Fan specifically, "flying Pak Sao")

How did you get your lead hand to be within range of the attacker's rear hand? What was it doing sticking all the way out there? Throwing it way out there, open yourself up to all kind of opponent's counter. A pretty disastrous position to be in.

Personally, I would never allow my attacking limbs to be sticking out there to allow this to happen. All strike is delivered as a hybrid of thrust and snap, ie, the attacking limb is withdrawn 3-5 inches behind the target, irrespective of hit or miss.

More important, my hands are mostly for defence ie parrying , and feinting. 99% of my attack would be kicks.

In counter to PS/CC, move your head out of attack line, close in with a rear elbow (swimming, horizontal or rising, depending on the situation) to the head and a barage of knees as well as more elbows and a couple of knife-hands to the neck. lol

James Kovacich

03-19-2003, 03:51 PM

Mormegil

03-19-2003, 04:50 PM

pesilat

03-19-2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
How did you get your lead hand to be within range of the attacker's rear hand? What was it doing sticking all the way out there? Throwing it way out there, open yourself up to all kind of opponent's counter. A pretty disastrous position to be in.

Personally, I would never allow my attacking limbs to be sticking out there to allow this to happen. All strike is delivered as a hybrid of thrust and snap, ie, the attacking limb is withdrawn 3-5 inches behind the target, irrespective of hit or miss.

More important, my hands are mostly for defence ie parrying , and feinting. 99% of my attack would be kicks.

This technique (Pak Sao) is most commonly achieved when the person is defending against a punch.

Person A punches with right hand.
Person B does a backhand parry with his right hand.
Person A closes, uses his left hand to slap B's right forearm and trap it against B's chest. Then A continues his punch.

It's not the only way it can happen, but that's the way it's commonly taught.

Another way it can happen, though, is this:

Person A punches with right hand.
Person B parries with his left hand and, using forward momentum, traps A's right forearm against A's chest while B delivers a right punch over top of the trap.

When used properly, it has nothing to do with "leaving a limb out there," though that's how it's often trained at beginning levels and people get confused. What it boils down to is timing.

Check out this article: http://www.impactacademy.com/articles/show_article.php?article=applied_trap_hands.htm

I think it does a pretty good job of explaining the principles involved in the applicaton of trap hands. Of course, I'm probably a little biased about it's quality since I wrote it ;) But if I didn't think it was a quality article with good info, I wouldn't have it posted on my website.

In counter to PS/CC, move your head out of attack line, close in with a rear elbow (swimming, horizontal or rising, depending on the situation) to the head and a barage of knees as well as more elbows and a couple of knife-hands to the neck. lol

Well, if you're hand is trapped well, then you won't be able to easily get it out to deliver the elbow and, if it's not easy to get out, then better options need to be examined.

Mike

Mormegil

03-19-2003, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by pesilat
This technique (Pak Sao) is most commonly achieved when the person is defending against a punch.

Person A punches with right hand.
Person B does a backhand parry with his right hand.
Person A closes, uses his left hand to slap B's right forearm and trap it against B's chest. Then A continues his punch.

It's not the only way it can happen, but that's the way it's commonly taught.

Another way it can happen, though, is this:

Person A punches with right hand.
Person B parries with his left hand and, using forward momentum, traps A's right forearm against A's chest while B delivers a right punch over top of the trap.

When used properly, it has nothing to do with "leaving a limb out there," though that's how it's often trained at beginning levels and people get confused. What it boils down to is timing.

Check out this article: http://www.impactacademy.com/articles/show_article.php?article=applied_trap_hands.htm

I think it does a pretty good job of explaining the principles involved in the applicaton of trap hands. Of course, I'm probably a little biased about it's quality since I wrote it ;) But if I didn't think it was a quality article with good info, I wouldn't have it posted on my website.

Well, if you're hand is trapped well, then you won't be able to easily get it out to deliver the elbow and, if it's not easy to get out, then better options need to be examined.

Mike

Good points. But to be fair to his question/criticism, I asked about the "Flying Pak Sao" specifically. So no prior hand contact before the Pak sao. I look forward to the article myself.

pesilat

03-19-2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
Good points. But to be fair to his question/criticism, I asked about the "Flying Pak Sao" specifically. So no prior hand contact before the Pak sao. I look forward to the article myself.

That's the second description I gave :D - unless I'm misunderstanding your term "Flying Pak Sao."

Mike

Mormegil

03-19-2003, 10:39 PM

Yeah. I would also call Scenario B a flying pak sao.

I guess I was thinking pre-emtive pak sao. Before they even start to punch, remove the obstruction and hit. Maybe I have the terminology wrong. I'm no instructor.

pesilat

03-20-2003, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by Mormegil
Yeah. I would also call Scenario B a flying pak sao.

I guess I was thinking pre-emtive pak sao. Before they even start to punch, remove the obstruction and hit. Maybe I have the terminology wrong. I'm no instructor.

Don't know if your terminology is right or wrong. I'm not an instructor in JF/JKD. I'm familiar with some of the terminology because I've been around the JF/JKD crowd for several years.

I know exactly what you're talking about. In my personal timings, it'd be a timing #2. I set the timing without a tactile reference. So the "preemptive" and the "flying" would, in my personal method, be the same timing. Only difference would be an offensive mode vs. defensive mode.

Mike

Johnathan Napalm

03-20-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Erkki
Actually, I assume that all attacks will be in the form of a combo. Whatever he throws, it doesn't matter. My objective is to take him out before he can fire that second technique with enough power to do any damage. How do I do that? It's called timing.

Have you fought a Muay Thai fighter before?

Johnathan Napalm

03-20-2003, 01:58 PM

Johnathan Napalm

03-20-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
To clarify a few things. I was inventing this situation in the context of my own personal experience. Most of what I do is in a relatively squarish stance. My shoulders are at about a 45 degree angle to the imaginaring "center line" (plane actually) drawn between me and my opponent.

This position isn't a static one. I wouldn't go into on guard close enough to be trapped. This would usually happen from a slightly longer range, and the opponent would shuffle forward quickly (pushing off with the rear leg, in an explosive fencing type advance), to get into range. As they slap the hand, their shoulders squared up momentarily, giving them a bit more reach.

Another way to get myself into this position, is the attacker, from long range fakes or DOES a low kick, first stepping forward with the rear foot. When they plant their lead leg, they would have advanced enough for the rear hand trap.

If he was in a traditional stance where my shoulders were parallel to the center line between us, then this wouldn't work. If I was in the traditional stance, and he wasn't, he could still trap my lead arm if he's in the 45 degree stance.

\----\

the '\' are the shoulder line of the oppoenents, and the line between is the center line.

KICK 'em!! and KICK 'em HARD! Low kicks to the legs, follow with high kicks to the upper torso. Fast combo! Most people are not trained to deal with that. Most people think they can intercept the first attack and win the fight with their counter.

Johnathan Napalm

03-20-2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by pesilat
....Another way it can happen, though, is this:

Person A punches with right hand.
Person B parries with his left hand and, using forward momentum, traps A's right forearm against A's chest while B delivers a right punch over top of the trap.

When used properly, it has nothing to do with "leaving a limb out there," though that's how it's often trained at beginning levels and people get confused. What it boils down to is timing......

Oh well, there are a million reasons not to punch that way. But this would only be argumantative. Ideally, you would not throw punches that way. But let's just suppose it happened.... B slapped A's lead hand punch. A's lead hand bended. A's lead elbow followed the momentum and aimed for B's head. Now, while you may use the word "trap", but you are just slapping A's lead hand punch, right? You are not grappling A's lead hand, right? If so, then what is stopping A from using his both elbows and knees? In fact, this is a classical Muay Thai technique when your punch is parried. In Muay Thai, you do not want to over-committ when you slap (or in Muay Thai term, sweep) away an attack. B/c if you sweep too hard and over committ, you just invite the elbow to your face. But, if I read you correctly,

Well, if you're hand is trapped well, then you won't be able to easily get it out to deliver the elbow and, if it's not easy to get out, then better options need to be examined.

you are saying that my hands (A's hand in this case) are "trapped" . How so?

Mormegil

03-20-2003, 03:13 PM

I thought was suppose to be a thread about how people of different backgrounds would counter different techniques.

I think akja was hoping it wouldn't turn into "You shouldn't do that because of this!"

But since it has...:(

I would just like to clarify - the trap isn't at all like a Muay Thai sweep. It doesn't slap to the side - it's not a parry. It slaps inward and downward. The target is the forearm near the elbow, and you attempt to drive it down towards the floating ribs. The momentum shouldn't allow for a lead elbow, as you are making contact 1-2 inches from the elbow.

pesilat

03-20-2003, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Oh well, there are a million reasons not to punch that way.

Little confused. Not to punch what way? I didn't specify how the punch was thrown and it doesn't matter. The principle can be applied against virtually any punch.

B slapped A's lead hand punch. A's lead hand bended. A's lead elbow followed the momentum and aimed for B's head.

I think you're misinterpreting the term "slap." When related to "pak sao" and trapping, it's not a slapping parry (which is what I think you're envisioning).

Yes, if I just slap the back of his fist or his forearm with no commitment, then I'll definitely eat his elbow if he has a clue.

But that's not what I'm doing. In slo-mo, it would look like I'm connecting to his forearm, then pushing his forearm into his chest and pinning it there. At speed, it's a committed slapping motion that either (a) drives his arm into his chest or (b) "rides" his arm in as he retracts the punch.

The trap is not indefinite. He can pull his arm out. But for a half second or so, his arm is no longer an obstacle. Trapping is, simply, "obstacle removal."

Also, good trappers will be standing on (trapping) your lead foot as they trap your hand, too.

But, this technique is a "classical" trap and not often encountered outside of sparring. It's used to teach a principle. The classic traps are very difficult, and sometimes impossible, to pull off in a fight (or even hard sparring). But the principles of trapping are universal.

Now, while you may use the word "trap", but you are just slapping A's lead hand punch, right? You are not grappling A's lead hand, right? If so, then what is stopping A from using his both elbows and knees?

I think I summed this up in my previous paragraph. And, as far as the knees, well, if I'm standing on a guy's foot, it's hard for him to use that knee.

In fact, this is a classical Muay Thai technique when your punch is parried. In Muay Thai, you do not want to over-committ when you slap (or in Muay Thai term, sweep) away an attack. B/c if you sweep too hard and over committ, you just invite the elbow to your face.

Absolutely! But that's not at all what we're discussing with the "pak sao."

But, if I read you correctly,
you are saying that my hands (A's hand in this case) are "trapped" . How so?

I think I've explained this as well as I can in this medium.

As far as a kicker keeping his opponent at long range. It's a good theory. But someone who wants to come in, will get in. I know, Muay Thai has a good infighting game, too. But if someone's infighting is better and they get past the kicks, then they'll have the advantage.

If you don't think people can get past the kicks ... well, you need to get out more ;)

And, kicking can't be a solution for everyone. Personally, I can kick. I can kick reasonably well. But I"m not a kicker. I don't like the long range. I can cope with it, but I don't like it. The primary reason is my eyesight. I've got poor depth perception. So at long range, I'm at a disadvantage. It's hard to deal with an incoming attack when you can't accurately guage how far away it is. So I prefer to be in close where I don't have to rely so much on eyesight and I can let my hands/arms/shoulders/head/body/hips/legs/feet do their thing by touch.

As far as my experience with Muay Thai, I used to regularly spar with a Muay Thai player. When I met him, he was 16-0 on the amateur Muay Thai circuits in Europe. He's very good. I was able to get past his kicks and I was able to trap him and I was able to beat him on the inside range.

Did I always win? No way. He's very good. He's also a warrior in a very real sense; he's an army infantryman attached to the 101st Airborne. He doesn't know the meaning of the words "go easy" or "give up." He cleaned my clock on occasion. But I cleaned his on occasion, too.

Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for Muay Thai and the people who train in it. Same for Kyokushin (looked at your profile). They're both good arts wth a lot to offer.

But your responses so far in this thread have given me the impression that you've never faced someone who really understands trapping. I'm not trying to insult you, just stating the impression I'm getting.

You are, though, familiar with the trapping principle (whether you call it that or not). The "plumb" is a form of trapping. You know how, when you get caught in a good plumb by someone who really knows what they're doing, you feel smothered? That's what fighting a good trapper feels like. You're kept off balance, your hands and feet always seem to be tied up in disadvantageous positions, you can't seem to get a solid shot fired off from anywhere, and you keep getting hit. It feels like the guy has sprouted a couple of extra limbs.

Is it possible to counter? Of course. Everything's possible to counter. But against a good trapper, it's rough.

I hope all of that made sense. If not, ask away and I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability in this medium.

It's funny because things like this can take hundreds of posts to hash through out here. But in person, it could be answered within a few minutes because the motion can be seen and the energy of it can be felt. Ah well ... finding a good explanation for things in this medium helps improve my understanding of the material. It's all a part of training :)

Mike

Johnathan Napalm

03-20-2003, 04:45 PM

lol, yes. On paper, it is always easy to say "if you do this, then I would do that". Of course, it is academic and totally worthless until you actually take it out to test whatever you hatch out on paper.

And people talk about what works and doesn't work when they spar their friends. Try that in the ring with a real opponent, then I'll tip my hat off to you. lol

As for getting past my kicks, lol, hmmm... there is no point in arguing what I can or cannot do, over an internet forum. Prove nothing.

Yes I know people talk about trapping a kick. lol. Looks good on paper. Try that in real life, in the ring, on the street. Not against your friendly training partners. Then see how well that work. (Hint: get good dental plan. :D )

You can say I don't know how good a trapper can be, and I can say you don't know how fast a kick can snap at your leg but ended up on your head. That is pointless. Moving on.

(Actually I do know how good a trapper can fight. My father was rather good at it. I always lost to him when I was a kid. May be that is why I swore never to fight like a trapper ever--when I grew up. :D )

Was it Bruce Lee who said "fighting is the art of moving"? Against a trapper or just about anyone I don't know (which is just about every attacker), I would stay out of range. As soon as he gets within range, combo attack! (combo snap kicks to his weapons first) . Yes, if I went trapping against a good trapper, I would lose. So, don't fight the way your opponent is strongest at. (Hardly original. I know)

In regards to your confusion over "Not to punch that way", well, you ought to know that throwing a single lead punch is one of the most risky attacks. Unless you are very good at non-telegraphic attack, it is a lousy idea. It just opens yourself up for counters.

pesilat

03-20-2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
lol, yes. On paper, it is always easy to say "if you do this, then I would do that". Of course, it is academic and totally worthless until you actually take it out to test whatever you hatch out on paper.

Yup.

As far as my using trapping in fights. I have. But, to my knowledge, none of the fights I've ever been in involved a Muay Thai guy, so wouldn't have worked very well for the example I was discussing ;)

However, I have successfully used trapping in real fights.

But, as I pointed out, the "classical" traps are just a route to learning and ingraining the principles of trapping. They aren't generally used that way when truly applied.

Was it Bruce Lee who said "fighting is the art of moving"? Against a trapper or just about anyone I don't know (which is just about every attacker), I would stay out of range. As soon as he gets within range, combo attack! (combo snap kicks to his weapons first) . Yes, if I went trapping against a good trapper, I would lose. So, don't fight the way your opponent is strongest at. (Hardly original. I know)

Yup. But the trapper will feel the same :) He'll do his best to get past your kicks and get inside. And you'll do your best to keep him out. The person whose better at their respective job (or luckier) will have the advantage.

Same same. To say that kicking beats trapping every time or trapping beats kicking every time is useless. Depends on the skills/luck of the kicker vs. the skills/luck of the trapper in that specific environment at that specific moment in time.

Mike

pesilat

03-20-2003, 05:30 PM

Also, just like you wouldn't try to kick if you didn't have the range, a trapper won't try to trap if the opportunity isn't there.

Mike

Erkki

03-20-2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Have you fought a Muay Thai fighter before?

What do you mean by fighting? I've sparred MT fighters numerous times, if that's what you mean. Why?

sweeper

03-20-2003, 10:40 PM

well I would consider myself a kicker, although I practice JKD. From my experience JKD is not predominantly a kicking art, it's much more upperbody, genneraly a JKD fighters goal is to be good in every range and not to have a home range, but genneraly most kicks are on the way in or as a distrction for fists, I think most often JKD fighters end up setting up a cross orahook to the jaw as quick as posable, I would guess maybe 75% punches and 25% kicks.. Diffrent perspectives from diffrent people :-)

As to the discusion, Just because things are stating off with a lead doesn't mean it's a single punch, but I don't think it matters within the context of this thred, I think this thred is largely for the discusion of how people deal with a given thret/technique/combination, and in that context we are realy looking at an optimum situation (at least a situation as interpreted by the reader) or perhaps it would be better to say a theoretic attack and a theoretic responce, like the question "how do you take a thai kick to the thigh or head/neck?" well that assumes the technique lands just the same as a trapping question assumes that the situation arises..

Dang hopeI made sence :-p

pesilat

03-21-2003, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by sweeper
I think this thred is largely for the discusion of how people deal with a given thret/technique/combination, and in that context we are realy looking at an optimum situation (at least a situation as interpreted by the reader) or perhaps it would be better to say a theoretic attack and a theoretic responce, like the question "how do you take a thai kick to the thigh or head/neck?" well that assumes the technique lands just the same as a trapping question assumes that the situation arises..

Dang hopeI made sence :-p

Made perfect sense to me. I'd actually say that the point of this thread (and whoever started it would really be the one to answer this) was to get an idea of how people in other systems might respond to a given situation. To get a small taste of the flavors other systems have to offer.

That's why I've tried to keep my responses very stylistic. To try to give the questioner a small taste of the style. Of course, in this medium, it's very difficult to accomplish. But I think that was the point of this thread and, overall, I think it's managed it well :)

Mike

James Kovacich

03-21-2003, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by akja
No, its a pretty good position to be in. Footwork will put you in position to do as explained.

Its typical JKD, not "point fighting" which I think you visualized by your disription of ............."What was it doing sticking all the way out there? "

Also, you're going to use 99% kicks??????

Yes, it is a better controlling position to be in. If your outside you are positions are too "equal," I want the the edge and inside is that for me.

And the "ring" is not a real test. You need to take of the gloves and do heavy full contact sparring in "all ranges" to prove what works and what does not work, and that is the bottom line!

It takes time to understand how and when to trap. And when you get it, you realize it is just one tool in your toolbox. If you discount it, not a problem. There are many techniques that work everyday for many people which I choose not to use. Thats my way, as we all have our own ways.

Also a fighters footwork is to assist you in becoming the victor in your fight. Although you can "RUN" from your oppenent, like you "SUGGESTED", but if you want to be a runner then "YOU" should be in "TRACK AND FIELD."

Back to your kicking. Low line kicks are good but you will not fake out a JKD guy with your low line kicks. You will get a few in but there is no way that your kicks are faster than the hands. My hands are close to the target (the head), your low line target is more of a distraction (unless you get a knee or something vital).

Muy Thai is a great art but it too, if you want to prove it in reality needs to take off the gloves and be judged on a level playing field.

Johnathan Napalm

03-21-2003, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Erkki
What do you mean by fighting? I've sparred MT fighters numerous times, if that's what you mean. Why?

Just wanted to know if you were simply talking on paper or from experience. :)

As I have posted earlier, most people (yours truly included) tend to over estimate one's ability to intercept and underestimate the attacker's speed in attack. If you realize how fast the kicks can come in, you would appreciate how hard it is to do something about them. LOL every time I hear or see someone talk about how to trap a kick, I LMAO. Most kickers, even the McDojo's ones are pretty damn good these days. Whatever Bruce Lee thought was cool 30 years ago, is no longer cool. Every JoeBlow and his uncle have learned to kick and hit fast and hard. Most MA today, listen to the same line of garbage their founders have passed down. They have the tendency to assume everyone in other arts would still be fighting the same way they did 30 years ago or 50 years ago or whenever.

I know this sound treacherous, my own art, Kyokushin was the hardest Karate back then. But whatever Oyama thought was cool back then, is no longer exclusively Kyokushin. Every other art has adopted the same "stuff" that makes Kyokushin powerful.

Therefore, ones need to examine the current state of art fighting, not "on paper, classical stuff" . Honestly, I would like to see Yilli proves itself by sending its fighters into the ring. Else, it is just on paper. Kyokushin made its mark by sending its fighters to take on all challengers. Oyama used to instruct his top students to go take on the best in a particular region where he wanted to establish a branch for Kyokushin. Even our lowly brownbelts are expected to defend the dojang against all challengers. (Damn cannon fodders! :mad: ) *sigh* Those were the ol' days.

Johnathan Napalm

03-21-2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
I thought was suppose to be a thread about how people of different backgrounds would counter different techniques.

I think akja was hoping it wouldn't turn into "You shouldn't do that because of this!"

But since it has...:(

I would just like to clarify - the trap isn't at all like a Muay Thai sweep. It doesn't slap to the side - it's not a parry. It slaps inward and downward. The target is the forearm near the elbow, and you attempt to drive it down towards the floating ribs. The momentum shouldn't allow for a lead elbow, as you are making contact 1-2 inches from the elbow.

Sorry. Just that instinctively, a single lead punch like described, makes me sweat. lol I just could not imagine doing that without having it being a feint to set the opponent up.

Still, due to the close range AND having being trapped, my instinct would be to use the close-range weapons, ie the elbows and the knees. I understand this is not trapping. But , "fighting has no rules", right? With your lead hand trapped and suppose your lead leg blocked, your other weapons must immediately come to the rescue. A push kick from the rear leg would open up the field again.

Johnathan Napalm

03-21-2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by akja
Yes, it is a better controlling position to be in. If your outside you are positions are too "equal," I want the the edge and inside is that for me.

Ok, you are in JKD right? Isn't the single lead punch the Single Direct Attack (if I got the term correct)? Now isn't that one of the most risky attack, second only to Attack by Drawing? Isn't it true that non-telegraphic is the key word?

I would think prudently, you would use a lead punch as a feint.

May be you prefer to fight within trapping range. That is fine. To each his own.

And the "ring" is not a real test. You need to take of the gloves and do heavy full contact sparring in "all ranges" to prove what works and what does not work, and that is the bottom line!

You are right. It isn't. But it is the best we have. I suppose you could enter Sabaki challenge. No gloves, no pad. Full Contact. Still, no punching to the head and neck and no front kick to the knee. Grappling is permitted, with condition attached.

Having said that, I still think Lumpinee Stadium is the ultimate challenge. JMO, of course.

It takes time to understand how and when to trap. And when you get it, you realize it is just one tool in your toolbox. If you discount it, not a problem. There are many techniques that work everyday for many people which I choose not to use. Thats my way, as we all have our own ways.

Yes. It is just another tool. There is no one single "killer tool" out there.

Also a fighters footwork is to assist you in becoming the victor in your fight. Although you can "RUN" from your oppenent, like you "SUGGESTED", but if you want to be a runner then "YOU" should be in "TRACK AND FIELD."

RUNNING may not be as bad as you put it. LOL . He who runs away, lives to ......ehhhh... drink beer, eat steak, watch TV and enjoy life, than to be 6 ft under, rotting.... :D

Back to your kicking. Low line kicks are good but you will not fake out a JKD guy with your low line kicks. You will get a few in but there is no way that your kicks are faster than the hands. My hands are close to the target (the head), your low line target is more of a distraction (unless you get a knee or something vital).

If you say your hand is faster than my kicks, I will have to take your words for it, since there is no way to prove one way or the other. lol

I don't think your hands are closer to the target. Moreover, with all due respect to an instructor, I think you underestimate how fast the kicks are these days. Bruce Lee was 10 years ahead of most martial artists at the time. That was 30 years ago. So, his techniques and ideas are no longer 10 years more advance. Nowaday, most martial artists can kick extremely fast and usually throw multiple kicks to multiple targets, with only rechambering the same foot. Do no think that most martial artists are as incompetent as those Bruce Lee used to criticize back then. All the Karateka and TKD folks have learned, or uncovered on their own, JKD's concepts, and adopted many of them.

Muy Thai is a great art but it too, if you want to prove it in reality needs to take off the gloves and be judged on a level playing field.
The gloves hardly change the playing field. The other weapons are unshielded.

There is the Sabaki Challenge, if you are interested. But this year's fight has just pasted the application deadline. Too bad. But 2004 is the one to shoot for, then. lol

James Kovacich

03-21-2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Ok, you are in JKD right? Isn't the single lead punch the Single Direct Attack (if I got the term correct)? Now isn't that one of the most risky attack, second only to Attack by Drawing? Isn't it true that non-telegraphic is the key word?

I would think prudently, you would use a lead punch as a feint.

May be you prefer to fight within trapping range. That is fine. To each his own.

You are right. It isn't. But it is the best we have. I suppose you could enter Sabaki challenge. No gloves, no pad. Full Contact. Still, no punching to the head and neck and no front kick to the knee. Grappling is permitted, with condition attached.

Having said that, I still think Lumpinee Stadium is the ultimate challenge. JMO, of course.

Yes. It is just another tool. There is no one single "killer tool" out there.

RUNNING may not be as bad as you put it. LOL . He who runs away, lives to ......ehhhh... drink beer, eat steak, watch TV and enjoy life, than to be 6 ft under, rotting.... :D

If you say your hand is faster than my kicks, I will have to take your words for it, since there is no way to prove one way or the other. lol

I don't think your hands are closer to the target. Moreover, with all due respect to an instructor, I think you underestimate how fast the kicks are these days. Bruce Lee was 10 years ahead of most martial artists at the time. That was 30 years ago. So, his techniques and ideas are no longer 10 years more advance. Nowaday, most martial artists can kick extremely fast and usually throw multiple kicks to multiple targets, with only rechambering the same foot. Do no think that most martial artists are as incompetent as those Bruce Lee used to criticize back then. All the Karateka and TKD folks have learned, or uncovered on their own, JKD's concepts, and adopted many of them.

The gloves hardly change the playing field. The other weapons are unshielded.

There is the Sabaki Challenge, if you are interested. But this year's fight has just pasted the application deadline. Too bad. But 2004 is the one to shoot for, then. lol

Yes, the trapping and clinch range is a good place for me because if you use Thai, then I'll use something else, I'll find what you don't know.

The main reason you can't trap effectively in Thai is the gloves are in the way. Even small grappling gloves are clumsy.

I also meant that your hands are fster than your feet and they can deliver way more strikes in a short amount of time compared to the legs. The legs are a very dangerous weapon when used in combination with "all of your tools," no one tool will win consistantly.

It depends on which target we are talking about when we speak of which target is closer. Your hands should be "up," so that would put them pretty close to your opponents head. Your feet may be closer to your opponents legs, but the head is a more vital target unless you get something vital like a knee.

I'm using my legs more and more. I started out in Kajukenbo, I was a kicker. But Jun Fan "fixed" my hands and I have faith in them as I do with all of my tools.

If I was taller, my ranges would be a bit differant I'm sure.

I have a student who I'm training that is a Thai fighter, probably could of been a pro if he wasn't into the "street" caca. Eventually he will be ready to fight in the cage fights.

In my opinion that is a more level playing field.:D

sweeper

03-21-2003, 05:37 PM

JN where do you live that you can throw elbows in MT fights?

also I think it's simple direct attack, not single direct attack. That is do say it's an attack you just throw at the target directly, when you lead off with it it's hard to hit with, but in that given case you don't lead off with it, you use a hand imobalisation attack (the pak sao) to pin their arm down, as soon as the arm is out of the way you nail them and continue however you think is best.

Personaly I want to see a UFC style competition without rounds, ending when someone goes down, bare knuckle but with shoes on alowing most of the illegal strikes (head buts, small joints, etc) just leaving out the realy hash stuf like eyes and spine, that would be interesting. also would be interesting to see a fighting system on a hard surface, would bet take downs and standing grappling would be much mroe important.

as to the thai kicks thing, most any student of JKD under a dan inosanto lineage is going to have at leaste some exposure to mauy thai, and the same goes for other lineages. It's not like people isolate them selves than claim they are the best (well I'm sure some do but most don't), and that goes for pritty much any system. And as for progresion in JKD, I agree there is some stuff that's out dated, usualy instructors compensate for this by modifying aspects of the art or add/subtracting something, problem is, because in some sence there is no single head of JKD no one realy wants to say they have changed anything, but in reality if you look at alot of JKD instructors, like alotof schools thatadd in some SE asian arts or sevate orBJJ or whatever, they are either trying to improve what they have or they are riding fads.. In genneral I think most people try to improve though.
But for the kicking thing, there are alot of JKD instructors who also train in, fight in and/or teach Mauy Thai.

Erkki

03-22-2003, 02:58 AM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
As I have posted earlier, most people (yours truly included) tend to over estimate one's ability to intercept and underestimate the attacker's speed in attack. If you realize how fast the kicks can come in, you would appreciate how hard it is to do something about them. LOL every time I hear or see someone talk about how to trap a kick, I LMAO.

If you wait until the kick begins, you will not be able to defend against it in time. This is why Yili practices a technique called connecting. Ask Chufeng or Yiliquan1 for a description of connecting.

Honestly, I would like to see Yilli proves itself by sending its fighters into the ring. Else, it is just on paper. Kyokushin made its mark by sending its fighters to take on all challengers. Oyama used to instruct his top students to go take on the best in a particular region where he wanted to establish a branch for Kyokushin. Even our lowly brownbelts are expected to defend the dojang against all challengers. (Damn cannon fodders! :mad: ) *sigh* Those were the ol' days.

When Sifu Starr had his school in Omaha he would regularly have people drop by for a challenge where his lower ranking students would defend the school. Yili students were also on the AAU tournament scene in the early 90's and did quite well. But a distinction was made: there is tournament fighting and there is 'real' fighting.
FWIW, Sifu Starr, the founder of Yili, holds black belt rank in Kyokushin. You would probably really like Yili and should try to stop by one of our schools sometime. Where are you located? Perhaps someone is nearby.

Johnathan Napalm

03-22-2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by sweeper
JN where do you live that you can throw elbows in MT fights?

also I think it's simple direct attack, not single direct attack. That is do say it's an attack you just throw at the target directly, when you lead off with it it's hard to hit with, but in that given case you don't lead off with it, you use a hand imobalisation attack (the pak sao) to pin their arm down, as soon as the arm is out of the way you nail them and continue however you think is best.

Personaly I want to see a UFC style competition without rounds, ending when someone goes down, bare knuckle but with shoes on alowing most of the illegal strikes (head buts, small joints, etc) just leaving out the realy hash stuf like eyes and spine, that would be interesting. also would be interesting to see a fighting system on a hard surface, would bet take downs and standing grappling would be much mroe important.

as to the thai kicks thing, most any student of JKD under a dan inosanto lineage is going to have at leaste some exposure to mauy thai, and the same goes for other lineages. It's not like people isolate them selves than claim they are the best (well I'm sure some do but most don't), and that goes for pritty much any system. And as for progresion in JKD, I agree there is some stuff that's out dated, usualy instructors compensate for this by modifying aspects of the art or add/subtracting something, problem is, because in some sence there is no single head of JKD no one realy wants to say they have changed anything, but in reality if you look at alot of JKD instructors, like alotof schools thatadd in some SE asian arts or sevate orBJJ or whatever, they are either trying to improve what they have or they are riding fads.. In genneral I think most people try to improve though.
But for the kicking thing, there are alot of JKD instructors who also train in, fight in and/or teach Mauy Thai.

I was talking about authentic MT, not watered down American Kickboxing where they are more interested in defeating the Thais by taking away their weapons than in defeating Muay Thai.

Simple Direct Attack it is then. Sorry about the mistake in JKD terminology.

Regarding kicking, MT kicking is only one aspect and MT kicks are not as extensive in variety as what you would encounter in TKD, for example. I would not dismiss the kicking techniques from TKD. TKD has thousands of techniques. Granted most of them are there b/c they can be performed, not b/c they are of serious practical use. (lol, I am opening myself up for flame by the TKD folks) But there are serious gems in the rest of the techniques.

If you say that the JKD folks are up to date and can prevail over kick attacks from these folks, I will have to take your words for it. No point in arguing otherwise. However, I wouldn't be that cavalier as to think any less of any other martial arts. HA! You see, Bruce Lee's concept of " Do not judge, but learn from all art" is been universally adopted (or bastardized :D ) by people outside of JKD.

Johnathan Napalm

03-22-2003, 05:14 PM

Back to techniques.

How do you counter this attack:

A is in orthodox, ie Nouth-Paw on guard. You are B. A initiates an attack in 3 stages. Of course, you would only see one at a time.

1. A throws a cross ie right-hand punch. A brings his rear leg forward at the same time.

2. As you expect to counter the punch, you discover that is a feint. (A snap that is withdrawn instantaneously)The real attack is the right leg that A was bringing forward and now is turning into a rising kick (unchamberred).

3. As you immediately ready to check kick /stop kick that right leg from A, A brings it back , chambers it to deliver a side piecing kick to your head or chest. OR is he chamberring to deliver a roundhouse? :) Is he aiming for the ribs or the head or the solar plexus?

Johnathan Napalm

03-22-2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by Erkki
If you wait until the kick begins, you will not be able to defend against it in time. This is why Yili practices a technique called connecting. Ask Chufeng or Yiliquan1 for a description of connecting.

When Sifu Starr had his school in Omaha he would regularly have people drop by for a challenge where his lower ranking students would defend the school. Yili students were also on the AAU tournament scene in the early 90's and did quite well. But a distinction was made: there is tournament fighting and there is 'real' fighting.
FWIW, Sifu Starr, the founder of Yili, holds black belt rank in Kyokushin. You would probably really like Yili and should try to stop by one of our schools sometime. Where are you located? Perhaps someone is nearby.

I used to give instant credibility to anyone from Kyokushin. (Not that I don't give any to Sifu Starr). That was when I was young and ignorant. lol. Kyokushin used to produce first rate fighters. But like most organizations that look inward, it has gone down hill and splintered and what not. Besides, what used to make Kyokushin folks powerful, is no longer exclusively Kyokushin anymore. Almost all other arts have discovered the "secrets" independently.

As I have stated long before my arugment with the Yili folks, that I have a mission to fulfill at this time and I am not available. (some will perceive this as a cop out. lol . But as I have stated before, I am not concerned about people's opinions. ) I definitely would love to observe Yili first hand and would be honored to train with the Yili folks.

pesilat

03-23-2003, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Back to techniques.

How do you counter this attack:

A is in orthodox, ie Nouth-Paw on guard. You are B. A initiates an attack in 3 stages. Of course, you would only see one at a time.

1. A throws a cross ie right-hand punch. A brings his rear leg forward at the same time.

2. As you expect to counter the punch, you discover that is a feint. (A snap that is withdrawn instantaneously)The real attack is the right leg that A was bringing forward and now is turning into a rising kick (unchamberred).

3. As you immediately ready to check kick /stop kick that right leg from A, A brings it back , chambers it to deliver a side piecing kick to your head or chest. OR is he chamberring to deliver a roundhouse? :) Is he aiming for the ribs or the head or the solar plexus?

OK. But you're making some assumptions about how I (and everyone else) will try to respond to 1 & 2.

And you're demanding that we don't see the leg coming forward with the punch.

But, for the sake of argument, I'll play along :D None of these are "the only response" from these arts. They're just the first ones that come to mind that I think are somewhat representative of the art.

Kali:
Strike the back of his hand with a right backhanded knuckle rap. Maybe I connect, maybe I don't. As the kick rising kick coms in, drop my right elbow down to intercept it. Maybe I connect, maybe I don't. I don't care what he's got his leg chambered for, I'm going to step on his left foot and shove.

Silat:
Cut the lines with hands and feet, and disrupt his balance. Don't care that he's faking. Don't care that he's throwing the kick. I'm in his face already, have him off balance, hit him when and where I can, and take him down and out.

Kuntao Silat:
Drop low under the punch. Oh look, he's handing me his leg. Takedown and lock.

Shen Chuan:
Strike over the incoming fist (the fact that it's a feint has no bearing on this) and hit with a relaxed hand strike to Gall Bladder 14 point (I think that's the right point, just above and to the outside of the eye). My right leg is moving in to check and control his lead (left) leg. It encounters his right leg moving forward and checks it instead. I drop my body and let my right arm fall, the back of my fist rakes his face, then trenches into his body. As it moves down his body, it encounters his left hand in its "on guard" position, bounces off of it (trampoline principle) and comes back up into the underside of his chin/throat. Then my right hand catches his right hand, my left shoots under his right arm, I step under, have a nasty wrist lock on his right hand, and a balance disruption that allows me to drop him.

Don't know how much sense any of that'll make in writing. And, as before, bear in mind that these are simply representations of stylistic answers. What I would really do would depend on the energy I felt at the time. And, maybe, I'd just end up getting clocked. Feces occurs.

Mike

sweeper

03-23-2003, 04:01 AM

If you say that the JKD folks are up to date and can prevail over kick attacks from these folks, I will have to take your words for it. No point in arguing otherwise. However, I wouldn't be that cavalier as to think any less of any other martial arts. HA! You see, Bruce Lee's concept of " Do not judge, but learn from all art" is been universally adopted (or bastardized ) by people outside of JKD.

Yeah it is hard for either of us to argue because I don't think either of us have had a ton of experience with the respective groups we aretalking about, what seems like it wouldn't work to one of us might work just fine it's just we havn't practiced it enough. For example I'm not sure how you are differentiating between american kickboxing and mauy thai. As I said I don't practice mauy thai so I can't realy pick up on sutalties in the art (or what apear as such to me). If you could elaborate on that a little it could help me out some (I'm assumming you are tlaking about the diffrence between a fighter like maurice smith,who tends to use his hands well rather than someone who "kicks 99% of the time" ?

as to the question.

If I were to respond to the first punch in a manner that represented how I would fight I would either drop out on a diagonal or go forward to the right. I would (if I'm in an optimal position) be fighting southpaw so I want to fight like a southpaw, I would look to get my lead (right) foot outside is lead (left) foot and box him from there. As it isn't boxing of course that means I have to get my lead leg in closer to his so I can shut it down, so I would try to jam the cross and step right and either jab rightor hook right depending on what his lead does (I would actualy probably end up fienting a jab than hooking as this seems to be a favorite for me). Basicly I'm gona try to get within the optimal arch of a round kick, because I'm to the right it's harder to hit me with his right side kick, I'm assumming that A would hit me with a right thrust kick to the chest. And knowing me I would get hit and get pushed back.

Now if I was in an orthodox lead I would probably respond to a cross (if I read cross, wich means hip movement) with a jab to cut off the angle (throw the attck either on an intercepting angle or to their head to cut the power) wich means closing on them, I would then probably see the round kick and try to knee/shin shield like you suggested, and open up for the side thrust, if I was hast enough I would probably snap out my right and drop back out to the left, but most likely I would be step back and tuck as the kick came and try to pary it to the side.

genneraly when something happens like this (get caught in a trap) I try to get out of the battle, so I try to either evade going back or side to side or I clinch.

Matt Stone

03-23-2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I used to give instant credibility to anyone from Kyokushin. (Not that I don't give any to Sifu Starr). That was when I was young and ignorant. lol. Kyokushin used to produce first rate fighters. But like most organizations that look inward, it has gone down hill and splintered and what not. Besides, what used to make Kyokushin folks powerful, is no longer exclusively Kyokushin anymore. Almost all other arts have discovered the "secrets" independently.

True, but I know my teacher trained in Kyokushin back in the 60s - 70s, when being Kyokushin meant regular ass-beatings disguised as dojo training... :lol:

As I have stated long before my arugment with the Yili folks,

We had an argument? When? I know we were debating some issues about crime in Asia, but wasn't aware there were any hard feelings on either end...

I definitely would love to observe Yili first hand and would be honored to train with the Yili folks.

I could understand your desire to watch Yili, but why would you be "honored" to train with us? We are no more special than anyone else that trains hard and tries to understand their art. We are just a bunch of regular guys that think beating the piss out of each other is a neat way to say "hi." :D

But, if you are ever up this way, feel free to drop in. We welcome any idiots to join us in the collective ass-beatings... :lol:

(*NOT saying that John is an idiot - just that I feel that way about myself every time I limp back to my car after training, wondering what it is I get out of having my ass handed to me so regularly...*)

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Matt Stone

03-23-2003, 11:45 AM

Oh yeah, by the way...

In Yili, we don't block kicks... That's a dumb thing to do. So the "official" doctrine is don't "block" them or otherwise directly oppose them. Move closer to negate their effectiveness, move further away to eliminate the possibility of their landing. Move to an outside quarter to take yourself out of his "target area" thereby making him unable to kick you at all (if you are standing next to him he better be a circus performer if he is going to get a kick to land! :D ).

But we wouldn't stand there and drop a low block or summink onto an incoming leg... Bad mojo in trying to do that.

All of that having been said, some of us psychos aren't against the idea of attacking the leg, kicking the kick or punching the kicking leg. But, as implied by calling us "psychos," it's a dangerous proposition at best.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

James Kovacich

03-23-2003, 09:29 PM

James Kovacich

03-23-2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by pesilat
Made perfect sense to me. I'd actually say that the point of this thread (and whoever started it would really be the one to answer this) was to get an idea of how people in other systems might respond to a given situation. To get a small taste of the flavors other systems have to offer.

That's why I've tried to keep my responses very stylistic. To try to give the questioner a small taste of the style. Of course, in this medium, it's very difficult to accomplish. But I think that was the point of this thread and, overall, I think it's managed it well :)

Mike

You got it! Just constructive interpetations and strategys from differant arts on their views and differances to the application of techniques. Thats what I had in mind.

It is my point of view that no one art will right or wrong but "all" will be right for "their" application.:asian:

sweeper

03-24-2003, 01:18 AM

if you are standing next to him he better be a circus performer if he is going to get a kick to land!

hmm.. there's this TKD I practice with, he does TKD and JKD, he has kicked me in the head when we are boxing, not close like a clinch but pritty close.. bugs the hell out of me :-p

James Kovacich

03-24-2003, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by akja
It dosen't matter what the target is. Too many feints, thus too much wasted time and movement. By the time A "brings back his leg" (feint), B has plowed him over with a single or double leg takedown AND issued a serious "ground and pound!" :D

How about we start out with the same right rear punch from a conventional stance. It also is a feint. But only one feint, quickly followed with a successful left jab.

How will you finish?

Johnathan Napalm

03-24-2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

We had an argument? When? I know we were debating some issues about crime in Asia, but wasn't aware there were any hard feelings on either end...

No hard feeling at all. Lol. The only argument was you folks insisted that I have made certain assumption about your "activities" in bars. lol As for Yilisifu anf Chufeng thinking that my life story was Indiana-Jones like, I kind of actually felt flattered, as I really thought it was pretty boring and mundane as it was. Little did I know that to other folks, it was actually that extreme.

I could understand your desire to watch Yili, but why would you be "honored" to train with us? We are no more special than anyone else that trains hard and tries to understand their art. We are just a bunch of regular guys that think beating the piss out of each other is a neat way to say "hi." :D

But, if you are ever up this way, feel free to drop in. We welcome any idiots to join us in the collective ass-beatings... :lol:

It is always an honor to be invited over.

Besides, with Mr Starr being a Kyokushin BB, makes a strong case that he wouldn't have swap what is essentially an effective MA for Yilli if Yilli has no value.

However, you folks are more than 1500 miles a way. So it will have to wait. But I do look forward to visiting.

Johnathan Napalm

03-24-2003, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by akja
How about we start out with the same right rear punch from a conventional stance. It also is a feint. But only one feint, quickly followed with a successful left jab.

How will you finish?

If it is a duel, I would be in my usual south paw stance or north paw stance, doesn't matter.

Side kick to the leg. It is a hybrid of thrust and snap kick. Hit or miss, doesn't matter. Rechamber without setting the foot down, side kick to the mid section. Or I might go with simple single direct side kick to the midsection, if he leans/lunge.

If he caught me by surprise and I am facing him, one of my leg is on a rising, snap kick to his chest, or head, depending on if he moves forward or not.

Needless to say, my upper body will bend backward to get out of range at the same time.

OR

Assuming in north paw stance, I slide (left foot step forward to 11o'clock, pivot on ball of left foot then swing right foot to the left) to my left (his right) and roundhouse kick him in the back of his kidney or cutting his legs from behind or knifehand his neck or straight punches to the right of his head.

This circular movement to the attacker's sideway is nothing more than footwork.

James Kovacich

03-24-2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
If it is a duel, I would be in my usual south paw stance or north paw stance, doesn't matter.

Side kick to the leg. It is a hybrid of thrust and snap kick. Hit or miss, doesn't matter. Rechamber without setting the foot down, side kick to the mid section. Or I might go with simple single direct side kick to the midsection, if he leans/lunge.

If he caught me by surprise and I am facing him, one of my leg is on a rising, snap kick to his chest, or head, depending on if he moves forward or not.

Needless to say, my upper body will bend backward to get out of range at the same time.

OR

Assuming in north paw stance, I slide (left foot step forward to 11o'clock, pivot on ball of left foot then swing right foot to the left) to my left (his right) and roundhouse kick him in the back of his kidney or cutting his legs from behind or knifehand his neck or straight punches to the right of his head.

This circular movement to the attacker's sideway is nothing more than footwork.

I use both stances also but assuming that we are in conventional stances and I feint with the right and deliver a successful left jab.

I have the oppurtunity to finish with a right horizontal elbow or a right cross. Depending on how my (right) strike affects their movement, I'm going to go through my opponent. If he's slightly stunned I may choose to just chop him down by attacking the legs and then going high with my hands. But it would be just as fast to follow up the right with a takedown finishing with a break, all depending on what he gives me.

James Kovacich

03-24-2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by sweeper
hmm.. there's this TKD I practice with, he does TKD and JKD, he has kicked me in the head when we are boxing, not close like a clinch but pritty close.. bugs the hell out of me :-p

If he's a high kicker, try using your knees to lower your body without hunching over. As you lower your body, you move in. Your head is out of harms way and your in position to take him down. If he's on one leg its even easier to take him down.

Mormegil

03-24-2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Back to techniques.

How do you counter this attack:

A is in orthodox, ie Nouth-Paw on guard. You are B. A initiates an attack in 3 stages. Of course, you would only see one at a time.

1. A throws a cross ie right-hand punch. A brings his rear leg forward at the same time.

2. As you expect to counter the punch, you discover that is a feint. (A snap that is withdrawn instantaneously)The real attack is the right leg that A was bringing forward and now is turning into a rising kick (unchamberred).

3. As you immediately ready to check kick /stop kick that right leg from A, A brings it back , chambers it to deliver a side piecing kick to your head or chest. OR is he chamberring to deliver a roundhouse? :) Is he aiming for the ribs or the head or the solar plexus?

"too many feints" may not necessarily be a bad thing. But in this case, if he goes continues, I think I would probably have gotten in between 2 & 3.

So at 1) I would slip outside, with a split entry attempt, with a nerve shot to the inside right arm. But, before I connect, they've withdrawn, and slide their right leg up for an apparent rising kick. I would continue my right hand forward for the punch to the face (striking into emptiness), and lower my left hand to jam the rising foot with my palm, while stepping forward with my right foot. At this range, they would have to step back to be able to kick me, as I'm in the way of a front chamber. If I've connected with the right punch, I'm thinking, go with the chain punch, since my left hand is down. Three or 4 rapid vertical fist punches as I continue forward into my opponent. Follow up depends on where they end up.

Here are my questions

#1
A crazy wild eyed, obviously untrained attacker is running at you weilding a kitchen knife. He has in his right hand, icepick hold, blade towards him - single edged kitchen knife :)

He's RAPIDLY thrusting it up and down (3-4 "stabs" a second) in a vertical motion towards the neck or collarbone area, if your were in front of him already. The motion hinges at the elbow, and is relatively non-commital (ie, their shoulder isn't turning with the strike, just the elbow bending). His left arm is just flailing back and forth to his left as he runs at you.

Assuming you can't run, what do you do?

#2
A crazy calculating, obviously trained knife fighter, got close to you (3 feet), and pulled out a knife from his back pocket (3 inch blade), and thrusts upward diagonal from his right to your sternum. He has it in knife up (as oppose to icepick), blade outward. His left hand is held up, floating near his chest.

sweeper

03-24-2003, 06:37 PM

well the problem is more that he doesn't throw alot of high kicks. In fact he didn't realy throw any untill my instructor saw me leaving openings :-p he told him to start kicking me in the head. I have gotten alot better about it, but some times when I'm in what apears to be close, I'll throw a somewhat heavy handed punch and he'll sink back and kick me in the head.

James Kovacich

03-24-2003, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by sweeper
well the problem is more that he doesn't throw alot of high kicks. In fact he didn't realy throw any untill my instructor saw me leaving openings :-p he told him to start kicking me in the head. I have gotten alot better about it, but some times when I'm in what apears to be close, I'll throw a somewhat heavy handed punch and he'll sink back and kick me in the head.

Its pretty natural for your instructor to know "what you have."

For your situation I think its just a matter of protecting your head. When I train with guys from differant styles I sometimes take a while to figure them out and go through exactly what you described.

As far as going in on your attacker (the kicker) its still a good strategy but like with any technique your head needs to be protected. For me, I'm just way more comfortable going forward and thats why you will hear a lot of that from me.

James Kovacich

03-24-2003, 07:58 PM

James Kovacich

03-25-2003, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Mormegil
"too many feints" may not necessarily be a bad thing. But in this case, if he goes continues, I think I would probably have gotten in between 2 & 3.

So at 1) I would slip outside, with a split entry attempt, with a nerve shot to the inside right arm. But, before I connect, they've withdrawn, and slide their right leg up for an apparent rising kick. I would continue my right hand forward for the punch to the face (striking into emptiness), and lower my left hand to jam the rising foot with my palm, while stepping forward with my right foot. At this range, they would have to step back to be able to kick me, as I'm in the way of a front chamber. If I've connected with the right punch, I'm thinking, go with the chain punch, since my left hand is down. Three or 4 rapid vertical fist punches as I continue forward into my opponent. Follow up depends on where they end up.

Here are my questions

#1
A crazy wild eyed, obviously untrained attacker is running at you weilding a kitchen knife. He has in his right hand, icepick hold, blade towards him - single edged kitchen knife :)

He's RAPIDLY thrusting it up and down (3-4 "stabs" a second) in a vertical motion towards the neck or collarbone area, if your were in front of him already. The motion hinges at the elbow, and is relatively non-commital (ie, their shoulder isn't turning with the strike, just the elbow bending). His left arm is just flailing back and forth to his left as he runs at you.

Assuming you can't run, what do you do?

#2
A crazy calculating, obviously trained knife fighter, got close to you (3 feet), and pulled out a knife from his back pocket (3 inch blade), and thrusts upward diagonal from his right to your sternum. He has it in knife up (as oppose to icepick), blade outward. His left hand is held up, floating near his chest.

For both techniques I'm assuming that I can get into a southpaw stance where I'm most comfortable to react from.

#1) Theres little time and his left hand isn't doing anything. I hardly use a cross block for the knife defense I will use it. When I cross block my left wrist is on top of my right wrist.

My left wrist grabs hist right wrist (my thumb is facing down), and my right moves around the inside of his arm and bck inside to grab my left wrist with my right hand( figure4 his arm), and put pressure backwards and down and disarm him and finish with something appropriate.

#2) This time his left hand is in a fight position but he's not rushing me. I'll use the same cross block but this time my left hand will grab his right wrist on the bottom (my thumb is up) and Simulataneously my right hand come accross and grabs his right hand ( I grab an his back hand and my thumb is at his thumb and my fingers overlap his hand to his palm). I can throw a knee or groin kick here too if my feet are in position.

Now I twist his wrist and bring his arm back accross my chest to my right side while I step back with my foot and I step through with my left foot ( My back is facing him), and his arm is now under my shoulder and straightened out. I continue to take him down and disarm and submit hit.

Johnathan Napalm

03-25-2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by akja
You got it! Just constructive interpetations and strategys from differant arts on their views and differances to the application of techniques. Thats what I had in mind.

It is my point of view that no one art will right or wrong but "all" will be right for "their" application.:asian:

Talking "what and how" on paper is just to expose to different options. There is no point in arguing whether one's timing is better than the other person. The only productive thing you can get out, is to see how others may counter an attack that is different from yours. And hopefully, your knowledge base expand as a result.

Johnathan Napalm

03-25-2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
"too many feints" may not necessarily be a bad thing. But in this case, if he goes continues, I think I would probably have gotten in between 2 & 3.

So at 1) I would slip outside, with a split entry attempt, with a nerve shot to the inside right arm. But, before I connect, they've withdrawn, and slide their right leg up for an apparent rising kick. I would continue my right hand forward for the punch to the face (striking into emptiness), and lower my left hand to jam the rising foot with my palm, while stepping forward with my right foot. At this range, they would have to step back to be able to kick me, as I'm in the way of a front chamber. If I've connected with the right punch, I'm thinking, go with the chain punch, since my left hand is down. Three or 4 rapid vertical fist punches as I continue forward into my opponent. Follow up depends on where they end up.

Yes. Jamming (by moving in close)A when he rechambers would stall his attack. Common tactic to stall a kick. Tricky timing though, as always.

One of the techniques is to drop down to do a sweep of the attacker's standing leg.

Here are my questions

#1
A crazy wild eyed, obviously untrained attacker is running at you weilding a kitchen knife. He has in his right hand, icepick hold, blade towards him - single edged kitchen knife :)

He's RAPIDLY thrusting it up and down (3-4 "stabs" a second) in a vertical motion towards the neck or collarbone area, if your were in front of him already. The motion hinges at the elbow, and is relatively non-commital (ie, their shoulder isn't turning with the strike, just the elbow bending). His left arm is just flailing back and forth to his left as he runs at you.

Assuming you can't run, what do you do?

A. South paw or north paw. Stay out of range. Lean upperbody away. Move in. Roundhouse or side kick, to the knee.

B. Take off your belt (if you have one) and use the belt knuckle to smack at his face to stun/distract him. You can use your jacket or purse too. Then you can attack his lower limbs or other targets of opportunity.

C. If you carry a can of pepper spray, it is time to use it. It does not have to disable him. Just impair him is sufficient. Pepper spray is inflammatory and causes inflammation at the mucous membrane, thus reduces his air intake to bare minimum and shuts off his eyes. Be sure you get the law enforcement version, not the K Mart version.

#2
A crazy calculating, obviously trained knife fighter, got close to you (3 feet), and pulled out a knife from his back pocket (3 inch blade), and thrusts upward diagonal from his right to your sternum. He has it in knife up (as oppose to icepick), blade outward. His left hand is held up, floating near his chest.

Got to go. Will answer this later.

James Kovacich

03-25-2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Talking "what and how" on paper is just to expose to different options. There is no point in arguing whether one's timing is better than the other person. The only productive thing you can get out, is to see how others may counter an attack that is different from yours. And hopefully, your knowledge base expand as a result.

Thats exactly my intention. My "views" on a lot of martial arts has changed after seeing them in a differant light!

James Kovacich

03-25-2003, 12:56 PM

Johnathan Napalm

03-25-2003, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
#2
A crazy calculating, obviously trained knife fighter, got close to you (3 feet), and pulled out a knife from his back pocket (3 inch blade), and thrusts upward diagonal from his right to your sternum. He has it in knife up (as oppose to icepick), blade outward. His left hand is held up, floating near his chest. [/B]

Wicked thrust there. Backward blast, if possible. Then left kick to his exposed right side, as his knife hand stretches out.

If not possible, then left hand block (you had better have a firm block there), right hand knuckle punch to the neck, or jab to the eyes, or straight punch to the eyes (yes! the area surrounding the eyes are extremely susceptible to strike), or front kick to the groin (if target is within reach, else kick to the face if he is crouching)

The military teaches a cross hand block, grap that hand, kick to the groin, twist arm and turn, yank him to the ground, disarm him. Hmmmm...... too many steps. Murphy's law might take over.

Johnathan Napalm

03-25-2003, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by akja
For #2 from a south paw, a half step shuffle back avoiding the knife and a full step shuffle forward and a low JKD (with my upper body leaning back) side kick to the knee. Front or rear knee, whichever is in position for me to take.

Then proceed with one of my other examples to disarm.

Pendulum swing?

James Kovacich

03-25-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Pendulum swing?

I think thats what some call it. I came from the "Macias Method" and they use a little differant terminology. Thats why I said a low JKD side kick. The shuffle is JKD, the kick is Savate, except without the arms flying all over the place. The hands are always in position for whatevers next.

A lot of the Oakland guys did go to Dan Inosanto for certification. So the terminology is similar. But they turned their backs on Dan and said their JKD is differant.

The Maciases have walked their own path all along and they are by far more "technical" than any of the other "original" Oakland students.

Johnathan Napalm

03-25-2003, 03:22 PM

I know practically nothing about Savate. Is it true that in Savate kicks, there is no chambering? (Ie you just use your leg like a club.)

James Kovacich

03-25-2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I know practically nothing about Savate. Is it true that in Savate kicks, there is no chambering? (Ie you just use your leg like a club.)

I think your in the right direction with your assumption on Savate. I don't know it either, I just know pretty much where the JKDs techniques came from on, early on that is. Today is way to differant for anyone to know it all.

Your a kicker, it might be in your interest to give it a search and see what you come up with.

Johnathan Napalm

03-25-2003, 04:21 PM

Actually I have searched. Surprisingly there is almost no info on Savate. I have a feeling that it must be exclusively French. Just a wild guess.

Mormegil

03-25-2003, 04:22 PM

I'm not so sure about the lack of chambering.

I had a teacher who did some Savate. The side kick I learned actually had a GIANT chamber. The knee came up to the chest, and the thrust actually propels you forward to gain some ground, so you can start the kick out of range. I think the kick was called the Chaise, or something like that. I can't spell French, but it was pronounced, 'Sha-Say'

I found the kick to be ridicously telegraphic for me - maybe I just wasn't doing it right.

Akja, I'm having trouble imagining in my mind's eye your defenses. When you say left over right on the first scenario, do you mean, left in front of right, or right in front of left, with the left being on top? Also, is your left "wrist" grabbing his wrist a typo?

Also, pardon my ignorance. What is a south paw vs. north paw stance?

Johnathan Napalm

03-25-2003, 04:32 PM

North Paw is just the traditional boxing stance, ie left lead. South Paw is the JKD stance of right lead.

James Kovacich

03-25-2003, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
I'm not so sure about the lack of chambering.

I had a teacher who did some Savate. The side kick I learned actually had a GIANT chamber. The knee came up to the chest, and the thrust actually propels you forward to gain some ground, so you can start the kick out of range. I think the kick was called the Chaise, or something like that. I can't spell French, but it was pronounced, 'Sha-Say'

I found the kick to be ridicously telegraphic for me - maybe I just wasn't doing it right.

Akja, I'm having trouble imagining in my mind's eye your defenses. When you say left over right on the first scenario, do you mean, left in front of right, or right in front of left, with the left being on top? Also, is your left "wrist" grabbing his wrist a typo?

Also, pardon my ignorance. What is a south paw vs. north paw stance?

South paw is a right lead and the north paw is a left lead or conventional stance.

The left over right is the cross block which comes from Karate. Some people might call it an X block, when you cross your wrists overhead to catch a block. Sound familiar?

When my left grabs his wrist, it is the transition from the cross block to the disarm where my left goes from the cross position to a "gripping" position on his wrist and all at the same time my right hand goes around his right arm and back to my left wrist to make a "figure4" armcrank.

I'll goe through some of my books and scan a couple of pics and post them here. They will be separate though, meaning a pic of the cross block and a pic of the arm crank and you should be able to see it clear as day after that.

All techniques that I describe are how I use them and not exactly in the same format that I may have learned them. But thats the way that we make techniques work, by learning them and modifying them to fit us.

I'll try and remember to do that tonite.

Mormegil

03-25-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by akja

When my left grabs his wrist, it is the transition from the cross block to the disarm where my left goes from the cross position to a "gripping" position on his wrist and all at the same time my right hand goes around his right arm and back to my left wrist to make a "figure4" armcrank.

I think I get it. I assume, your right hand goes underneath the opponent's arm, in a counter-clockwise manner, reaches over, then pulls inward to tuck their elbow in towards you.

The confusion stems from my usual implementation of the figure-4, which involves an outside right to right grab, with my left hand grabbing my right forearm. Same thing, just switched arms.

James Kovacich

03-25-2003, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
I think I get it. I assume, your right hand goes underneath the opponent's arm, in a counter-clockwise manner, reaches over, then pulls inward to tuck their elbow in towards you.

The confusion stems from my usual implementation of the figure-4, which involves an outside right to right grab, with my left hand grabbing my right forearm. Same thing, just switched arms.

Yes, you can go under or straight around and with either hand as well. I write the way I use most freely use a technique and the way I apply it allows me to go forward. If we end up on the ground, I plan to be on top.

James Kovacich

03-26-2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by akja
Yes, you can go under or straight around and with either hand as well. I write the way I use most freely use a technique and the way I apply it allows me to go forward. If we end up on the ground, I plan to be on top.

I went through several of my books last nite and each one described the figure4 armlock/crank as going under the arm. It will provide much more torch in the long run but the way I do it is way easier and faster to pull off and when your in that position (your position vs. his position) you will not need the extra torch.

In disarming any weapon, the common goal is a combination of the simplest, most direct, fastest and most efficient use of your technique.

Mormegil

03-26-2003, 02:57 PM

The upward diagonal knife thrust to the belly is a tough one.

One of the reasons I asked, was to get some better ideas for how I would handle it. Personally, I can pretty much avoid getting stuck, by blocking/parrying with my lower left outside forearm with the elbow sort of down, and redirecting / pushing it to the inside, as I step with my right foot back and left to swing to the outside.

I would have to be pretty quick to do this at speed (I don't know if I'm there yet, but I've seen others do this well), and grab his wrist/hand with my right from underneath, and switch my left hand to a wrist lock, grabbing the pad of the thumb, turning the blade to the left. Once I've got the lock, I can try to either eject or grab the blade from the back for the disarm. This works best if the attacker gave a relatively commited thrust, which would probably be necessary from 3 feet away. Before I could grab, I might have to slide my right arm below his wrist to kind of hook him in to control things slightly - sort of a travelling x-block, with the left elbow down, left forearm facing up & right forearm down. I need to ask someone to feed this to me so I can see what comes out.

An experienced knife fighter might quickly withdraw the blad with an outward turn to cut me on the forearm. This is why I block with the outside of my forearm. Less arteries and if I get cut on the outside, I can still grab and form a fist, unlike if my tendons get cut on the inside.

I really like the kick to the knee that several people mentioned. I personally would avoid the midline or high kicks, as a good knife fighter will block or jam using the knife, and you can get stuck or cut pretty badly using your own power.

James Kovacich

03-26-2003, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
The upward diagonal knife thrust to the belly is a tough one.

One of the reasons I asked, was to get some better ideas for how I would handle it. Personally, I can pretty much avoid getting stuck, by blocking/parrying with my lower left outside forearm with the elbow sort of down, and redirecting / pushing it to the inside, as I step with my right foot back and left to swing to the outside.

I would have to be pretty quick to do this at speed (I don't know if I'm there yet, but I've seen others do this well), and grab his wrist/hand with my right from underneath, and switch my left hand to a wrist lock, grabbing the pad of the thumb, turning the blade to the left. Once I've got the lock, I can try to either eject or grab the blade from the back for the disarm. This works best if the attacker gave a relatively commited thrust, which would probably be necessary from 3 feet away. Before I could grab, I might have to slide my right arm below his wrist to kind of hook him in to control things slightly - sort of a travelling x-block, with the left elbow down, left forearm facing up & right forearm down. I need to ask someone to feed this to me so I can see what comes out.

An experienced knife fighter might quickly withdraw the blad with an outward turn to cut me on the forearm. This is why I block with the outside of my forearm. Less arteries and if I get cut on the outside, I can still grab and form a fist, unlike if my tendons get cut on the inside.

I really like the kick to the knee that several people mentioned. I personally would avoid the midline or high kicks, as a good knife fighter will block or jam using the knife, and you can get stuck or cut pretty badly using your own power.

Any knife disarm is hard as well as dangerous. I need a lot of work there because its something I never really focused on. If you think about it, a knife is a very likely weapon to be attacked with.

I stated that I really don't like the cross block. The reasons are, for the knife situation, I "created a bigger" target for the attacker to cut or stab by crossing my arms.

My main reason though is because in Jun Fan, if they use a cross block, its to easy to trap his two arms with one of my hands leaving me one free hand to strike with.

Mormegil

03-26-2003, 05:30 PM

I would like to clarify a few points about my post.

When I said I would have to be pretty quick, that's because as this point, I don't think I could pull off that disarm at speed. I think I can parry the thrust, and not get stuck, but at this point, I don't have a good answer for a disarm that I'm confident with. What I posted is a theoretical solution, that I don't think I can pull off just yet with an experienced knife fighter.

The analogy of the "traveling" x-block: I'm not a big fan of the x-block myself. I want to differentiate a "traditional" x-block with what I would try to do. It doesn't block as an x. It blocks with a lowered elbow, blocking/parrying at the outside forearm, then it pushes the arm down and to the right, and my right arm shoots in underneath. At this point, it looks kind of like an x-block, except it's turned on it's side. The left arm would be over the right, and the whole thing would be rotated counter-clockwise about 60-80 degrees. In Jun Fan terminology, it would be an overlapping low left biu sao over a low left boang sao, except the energy is all wrong (just to give an idea of the structure). This is transitional, as the right hand twists clockwise to expose the palm to the back of the opponent's hand to grab, while both arms move up to carry the opponent's limb up.

James Kovacich

03-26-2003, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
I would like to clarify a few points about my post.

When I said I would have to be pretty quick, that's because as this point, I don't think I could pull off that disarm at speed. I think I can parry the thrust, and not get stuck, but at this point, I don't have a good answer for a disarm that I'm confident with. What I posted is a theoretical solution, that I don't think I can pull off just yet with an experienced knife fighter.

The analogy of the "traveling" x-block: I'm not a big fan of the x-block myself. I want to differentiate a "traditional" x-block with what I would try to do. It doesn't block as an x. It blocks with a lowered elbow, blocking/parrying at the outside forearm, then it pushes the arm down and to the right, and my right arm shoots in underneath. At this point, it looks kind of like an x-block, except it's turned on it's side. The left arm would be over the right, and the whole thing would be rotated counter-clockwise about 60-80 degrees. In Jun Fan terminology, it would be an overlapping low left biu sao over a low left boang sao, except the energy is all wrong (just to give an idea of the structure). This is transitional, as the right hand twists clockwise to expose the palm to the back of the opponent's hand to grab, while both arms move up to carry the opponent's limb up.

Where do you live in L.A.?

I will be going down there to train with one of my instructors later this year. Maybe we could train sometime in the future.

Right now I have buisness in Fresno and I go to Fresno about twice a month. That is half way to L.A. from San Jose.

sweeper

03-26-2003, 06:19 PM

1: the crazy unskilled knifer.

I'm assumming I'm very cramped, enough so that I can't get around him. I want to throw anything and everything at him, if there is nothing I'll take my coat or shirt off and whip it at him or throw it because I probably am gona need a distraction to get the knife. I would then slap the knifehand inside with my left wial stepping left to get out of the blade path, and meet it with a horizontal elbow. On the elbows rebound I would use my right hand to peel the knife out. If I still have control of the arm I would getmy right hand on his wrist and left hand/forearm/elbow on his tricep and pull him off ballance and into whatever keeped my from running.

2: The crazy skilled knifer.

This one sucks even more.. he's close so I don't have alot of time.. if I can move back or to the side to keep out of range, I will. If I can't I would block the hit with my forearm in tight, basicly trying to minimise dammage, and throw a thrust kick to create distance, hopefully I can kick him to a side(if I'm in a good position) and run. I would try to get a weapon if at all posable, and using it to keep him from a fas advance try to get around him or try to draw a long attack I can deal with without as much risk.

Johnathan Napalm

03-26-2003, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil .......An experienced knife fighter might quickly withdraw the blad with an outward turn to cut me on the forearm. This is why I block with the outside of my forearm. Less arteries and if I get cut on the outside, I can still grab and form a fist, unlike if my tendons get cut on the inside.

I really like the kick to the knee that several people mentioned. I personally would avoid the midline or high kicks, as a good knife fighter will block or jam using the knife, and you can get stuck or cut pretty badly using your own power. [/B]

An experienced knife fighter will just slash as you and use the knife as nothing more than an extension of his hand. He wouldn't stick it all out to let you grap it. He knows all too well about all those common knife disarm techniques.

If you have time to gauge whether the attacker is experienced or not, great. (and good luck too , lol ) But most likely you would be surprised. The one who means to stab you, WILL NOT brandish the knife and wave it around. He will most likely hide it from sight, and try to get close enough and insert it into you. That is why most of the widely known disarm techniques simply don't work. Not only they don't work, they would most likely get you sliced into pieces. ( :D Good luck Akja. Hope you have really good medical insurance and life insurance :D )

pesilat

03-26-2003, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
An experienced knife fighter will just slash as you and use the knife as nothing more than an extension of his hand. He wouldn't stick it all out to let you grap it. He knows all too well about all those common knife disarm techniques.

If you have time to gauge whether the attacker is experienced or not, great. (and good luck too , lol ) But most likely you would be surprised. The one who means to stab you, WILL NOT brandish the knife and wave it around. He will most likely hide it from sight, and try to get close enough and insert it into you. That is why most of the widely known disarm techniques simply don't work. Not only they don't work, they would most likely get you sliced into pieces. ( :D Good luck Akja. Hope you have really good medical insurance and life insurance :D )

Yet again, this thread is a discussion of stylistic responses, not how applicable they may or may not be :)

When it comes to application, there are no guarantees. No example can be offered than someone can't poke holes in. This is especially true with knives.

But by reading different stylistic responses to various attacks, we can learn more about how other styles approach things and, in turn, may gain some more depth into how we approach them ... if we keep an open mind.

Mike

edited to remove double-up of "Mike" (hate it when I do that)

James Kovacich

03-26-2003, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
An experienced knife fighter will just slash as you and use the knife as nothing more than an extension of his hand. He wouldn't stick it all out to let you grap it. He knows all too well about all those common knife disarm techniques.

If you have time to gauge whether the attacker is experienced or not, great. (and good luck too , lol ) But most likely you would be surprised. The one who means to stab you, WILL NOT brandish the knife and wave it around. He will most likely hide it from sight, and try to get close enough and insert it into you. That is why most of the widely known disarm techniques simply don't work. Not only they don't work, they would most likely get you sliced into pieces. ( :D Good luck Akja. Hope you have really good medical insurance and life insurance :D )

We are just discussing the differant approaches to differant situations. Nobody here is teaching. If you want instruction, you need to pay for it!:D

You're wrong. If you paid attention to my posts throughout all the threads that "we've" contributed to, then you would know that my instincts are grab or trap and thats exaxtly what it takes to stop the knife, to make that initial "stop" and transition to disarm.

It is quite possible to get stabbed or slashed, the odds are against you, but thats not the focus of the topic.

Also I admitted that I never took this area serious enough before and I need work at it. And you are right about the slashing, if I wanted to cut someone, they would be cut!

But your Thai is to differant for you to see the techniques the way "our" master instructors do. Traditional Ju Jitsu is the answer, you just have to see it for what it is.

No art can be used the way you learn it in class. You have to look past the robotic movements and actually see the techniques in your mind.

You learn it, then you learn to flow with it.

James Kovacich

03-26-2003, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by pesilat
Yet again, this thread is a discussion of stylistic responses, not how applicable they may or may not be :)

When it comes to application, there are no guarantees. No example can be offered than someone can't poke holes in. This is especially true with knives.

But by reading different stylistic responses to various attacks, we can learn more about how other styles approach things and, in turn, may gain some more depth into how we approach them ... if we keep an open mind.

Mike

Mike

You read my mind! I'll be back after I train.

:asian:

Johnathan Napalm

03-26-2003, 08:13 PM

I am simply relaying what real life knife attack is like. It is nothing like what most MA folks think it is. It is seldom "a thrust from this angle" or "a slash from that angle" . If ypu want to pretend that is how knife fight is really like, go right ahead. What do I care?

I have been stabbed, cut, slashed with long knives, short knives and even a spear. But, hey, what do I know? Afterall, those BOOKS written by SENSEIs or MASTERS who have never have anyone coming to them with a real knife wanting to spill their guts, must be telling the truth! :D

Talk to any one who REALLY know knife fighting. They would tell you all the commonly known disarm techiniques would just get you FILLETED like a fish!

pesilat

03-26-2003, 08:20 PM

James Kovacich

03-27-2003, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I am simply relaying what real life knife attack is like. It is nothing like what most MA folks think it is. It is seldom "a thrust from this angle" or "a slash from that angle" . If ypu want to pretend that is how knife fight is really like, go right ahead. What do I care?

I have been stabbed, cut, slashed with long knives, short knives and even a spear. But, hey, what do I know? Afterall, those BOOKS written by SENSEIs or MASTERS who have never have anyone coming to them with a real knife wanting to spill their guts, must be telling the truth! :D

Talk to any one who REALLY know knife fighting. They would tell you all the commonly known disarm techiniques would just get you FILLETED like a fish!

So you got speared, you must of been in the pen. Thats not the same as the street. Theres no where to run much less the ability "to fight your fight".

With the attacker continuing to slash. I addressed that earlier before you even brought it up. Thats what taking control of the wrist is all about. He can't slash or stab if you control his wrist movement. It dosen't matter how you stop his wrist and take control of it, but it would work much better if you new what to after you did stop his "stabbing or slashing" arm movement.

I'm not trying to argue with you. We seem to agree about half of the time, and thats pretty good!

But you assume that knowbody else has ever "really fought" and you also think the same of "our" Sensei and Sifu. Dosen't make sense at all. You relate to competion so I think you will understand this. There are "reasons" why Tank Abbot loses more than he wins.

"ALL" arts take time and practice to be able to use them. We could say the same for Muy Thai and Western Boxing too.

As far as knife fighting and reality. If you train in "decent" martial arts you will have a chance to survive. If you don't train in the martial arts, you will have less of a chance if any of surviving.

James Kovacich

03-27-2003, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by sweeper
1: the crazy unskilled knifer.

I'm assumming I'm very cramped, enough so that I can't get around him. I want to throw anything and everything at him, if there is nothing I'll take my coat or shirt off and whip it at him or throw it because I probably am gona need a distraction to get the knife. I would then slap the knifehand inside with my left wial stepping left to get out of the blade path, and meet it with a horizontal elbow. On the elbows rebound I would use my right hand to peel the knife out. If I still have control of the arm I would getmy right hand on his wrist and left hand/forearm/elbow on his tricep and pull him off ballance and into whatever keeped my from running.

2: The crazy skilled knifer.

This one sucks even more.. he's close so I don't have alot of time.. if I can move back or to the side to keep out of range, I will. If I can't I would block the hit with my forearm in tight, basicly trying to minimise dammage, and throw a thrust kick to create distance, hopefully I can kick him to a side(if I'm in a good position) and run. I would try to get a weapon if at all posable, and using it to keep him from a fas advance try to get around him or try to draw a long attack I can deal with without as much risk.

If you were able to get your jacket off, that will work.

Its really dangerous for any kind of a block when your attacker has a knife. I know if I had the knife a guy tried to block, I would re-direct my thrust at the arm and the same with the kick, his leg would get stabbed. The focus ( for me in my mind) is stop the the attacking arm without getting cut and the rest will happen so fast, what you know will come into play.

I think its time for another new scenario.

Mormegil

03-27-2003, 01:08 AM

Mormegil

03-27-2003, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm

Talk to any one who REALLY know knife fighting. They would tell you all the commonly known disarm techiniques would just get you FILLETED like a fish!

What are some of the "commonly" known knife disarms? I just want to know, to see if the ones I've learned are considered "common" -- they tend to come from Kali, which is pretty blade oriented.

pesilat

03-27-2003, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by Mormegil
What are some of the "commonly" known knife disarms? I just want to know, to see if the ones I've learned are considered "common" -- they tend to come from Kali, which is pretty blade oriented.

The most common knife disarm that I've seen is what we call the "thumb base disarm." Get hold of the base of the thumb, pinch the tar out of it, and apply leverage against the knife (either side of the blade or the handle) to strip it out.

This concept can be applied numerous ways. The most common variation that I've seen is the "wrist lock" version. You get their blade hand in a standard wrist lock position, then strip the knife out.

Mike

Mormegil

03-27-2003, 01:54 AM

Yeah. Those are what I have mostly learned. Would you consider these techniques to be a guarantee to be filleted?

I wanted to know what J. Napalm considers common knife disarms, so I know what "doesn't work."

BTW: pesilat, any comment for a response to the knife attacks mentioned?

pesilat

03-27-2003, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by Mormegil
Yeah. Those are what I have mostly learned. Would you consider these techniques to be a guarantee to be filleted?

I wanted to know what J. Napalm considers common knife disarms, so I know what "doesn't work."

BTW: pesilat, any comment for a response to the knife attacks mentioned?

There are no guarantees that you will or won't be filleted :)

I mean, you could stand there, do nothing, and, by sheer luck, his blade hits your belt buckle, the knife slips in his hand, cuts his fingers, and he disarms himself while you're standing there with your finger up your nose :) Anything's possible. Just less than likely.

For me, training disarms isn't about training disarms. The disarms are the icing on the cake. They add some flavor to the training. But the cake is in learning methods of getting control of the weapon. Every time I train a disarm, I'm actually training to get control of the weapon. The disarm is bonus. If I train 10 disarms that all involved the same basic method of getting control of the weapon, then that's 10 repetitions of that basic controlling method. The disarms just keep things interesting.

As the saying goes, "disarms are incidental if not accidental."

But, if I never train the disarms, then I will have nearly no chance of getting them, even if they are sitting right there in front of me and the opportunity is dropped in my lap.

So, having said all that, here's some responses to the proposed knife attack :)

#1 (assuming blade in right hand):
Step forward and to my left (female triangle) whlie bringing my right forearm to meet his descending forearm (with my right palm facing him to put the relatively safe region of my forearm toward the sharp part of the blade). Don't stop his energy, in fact, as I pivot clockwise, I bring my right hand down and my left hand up under his arm to look for a hyper-extension of his right arm. This motion also helps me keep his left hand (which may have another weapon) away from me and I'd be checking his right leg/foot with mine as well (probably trapping his right foot with my right foot). Hook my left hand in the crook of his right elbow and pull toward my chest. This should bend his elbow while also unbalancing him. As I bend his elbow with my left hand, I drive the blade toward him with my right hand, using my thumb on the back of his hand to aim the point of the blade at him. Hopefully I stab him with his own blade. Failing that, I would flow into a disarm if it were there, or I'd flow into a lock to maintain control of his blade hand/arm and take him down.

#2 (assuming blade in right hand):
Step forward and left (female triangle) and cup my left hand under his elbow. Lift with my left hand (he's already going upward with the blade, I'm just adding a little more momentum now that I'm off line). Shoot my right hand under his right tricep, "ridge hand" to the far side of his neck while shooting my right arm as deep as I can, ideally getting my right shoulder under his right tricep and into his armpit with my right leg behind his right leg and our hips touching. Pivot my upper body counter clockwise to unbalance him (keeping the bicep/tricep area of his knife arm pinned tight between my right shoulder, my chin, and my left hand on his right bicep, and my right his compressing tight and applying whatever pressure it can to his left carotid). I continue pivoting while I sweep back with my right leg through his right leg ("biset luar" from Silat). As he falls, I go down with him and end up kneeling on my right knee just behind his back with his right arm still pinned between my right shoulder and my chin. Slide my left hand to the outside of his right forearm. Pull my head out while pushing to my left with my right shoulder and pulling with my left hand, bringing his arm across my left upraised knee where I can hyperextend it. As I hyperextend/break his right arm, I hit/grab his throat with my right hand to keep his mind off of countering/escaping the hyperextension/break. If he does manage to roll, then I lower my left knee, driving his arm to the ground with my left hand, then kneel on the forearm with my left knee and pry the blade from his hand with my left while hitting him as hard and fast as I can in the head/throat area.

Mike

James Kovacich

03-27-2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by pesilat
There are no guarantees that you will or won't be filleted :)

I mean, you could stand there, do nothing, and, by sheer luck, his blade hits your belt buckle, the knife slips in his hand, cuts his fingers, and he disarms himself while you're standing there with your finger up your nose :) Anything's possible. Just less than likely.

For me, training disarms isn't about training disarms. The disarms are the icing on the cake. They add some flavor to the training. But the cake is in learning methods of getting control of the weapon. Every time I train a disarm, I'm actually training to get control of the weapon. The disarm is bonus. If I train 10 disarms that all involved the same basic method of getting control of the weapon, then that's 10 repetitions of that basic controlling method. The disarms just keep things interesting.

As the saying goes, "disarms are incidental if not accidental."

But, if I never train the disarms, then I will have nearly no chance of getting them, even if they are sitting right there in front of me and the opportunity is dropped in my lap.

So, having said all that, here's some responses to the proposed knife attack :)

#1 (assuming blade in right hand):
Step forward and to my left (female triangle) whlie bringing my right forearm to meet his descending forearm (with my right palm facing him to put the relatively safe region of my forearm toward the sharp part of the blade). Don't stop his energy, in fact, as I pivot clockwise, I bring my right hand down and my left hand up under his arm to look for a hyper-extension of his right arm. This motion also helps me keep his left hand (which may have another weapon) away from me and I'd be checking his right leg/foot with mine as well (probably trapping his right foot with my right foot). Hook my left hand in the crook of his right elbow and pull toward my chest. This should bend his elbow while also unbalancing him. As I bend his elbow with my left hand, I drive the blade toward him with my right hand, using my thumb on the back of his hand to aim the point of the blade at him. Hopefully I stab him with his own blade. Failing that, I would flow into a disarm if it were there, or I'd flow into a lock to maintain control of his blade hand/arm and take him down.

#2 (assuming blade in right hand):
Step forward and left (female triangle) and cup my left hand under his elbow. Lift with my left hand (he's already going upward with the blade, I'm just adding a little more momentum now that I'm off line). Shoot my right hand under his right tricep, "ridge hand" to the far side of his neck while shooting my right arm as deep as I can, ideally getting my right shoulder under his right tricep and into his armpit with my right leg behind his right leg and our hips touching. Pivot my upper body counter clockwise to unbalance him (keeping the bicep/tricep area of his knife arm pinned tight between my right shoulder, my chin, and my left hand on his right bicep, and my right his compressing tight and applying whatever pressure it can to his left carotid). I continue pivoting while I sweep back with my right leg through his right leg ("biset luar" from Silat). As he falls, I go down with him and end up kneeling on my right knee just behind his back with his right arm still pinned between my right shoulder and my chin. Slide my left hand to the outside of his right forearm. Pull my head out while pushing to my left with my right shoulder and pulling with my left hand, bringing his arm across my left upraised knee where I can hyperextend it. As I hyperextend/break his right arm, I hit/grab his throat with my right hand to keep his mind off of countering/escaping the hyperextension/break. If he does manage to roll, then I lower my left knee, driving his arm to the ground with my left hand, then kneel on the forearm with my left knee and pry the blade from his hand with my left while hitting him as hard and fast as I can in the head/throat area.

Mike

Man, you always post good!
You're able to see the "WHOLE" picture rather than just the exterior of things.

Your diversified martial arts seem to not only blend and overlap well with each other but also compliment each other.

You have very good insight in the arts!:cool:

pesilat

03-27-2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by akja
Man, you always post good!
You're able to see the "WHOLE" picture rather than just the exterior of things.

Your diversified martial arts seem to not only blend and overlap well with each other but also compliment each other.

You have very good insight in the arts!:cool:

:o Aw shucks, I just call 'em likes I sees 'em ;)

But, yeah, I think my diverse background has helped me a lot. Specifically, though, my approach to the diversity has helped. Rather than looking for the differences (which are easy to find), I look for the similarities. In doing so, I gain not only more breadth, but more depth at the same time.

I learn to spot the underlying concepts and principles that they share instead of focusing on what they do differently.

I think this is one of the common pitfalls that people encounter when cross training.

Mike

Johnathan Napalm

03-27-2003, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by akja

..... You're wrong. If you paid attention to my posts throughout all the threads that "we've" contributed to, then you would know that my instincts are grab or trap and thats exaxtly what it takes to stop the knife, to make that initial "stop" and transition to disarm. .....

..... Traditional Ju Jitsu is the answer, you just have to see it for what it is. ....

Disarm? In knife fight, the first rule is DISENGAGE. Your best shot at coming out alive is to cripple him and HAUL ASS! (not necessary in that order!) lol

It is a matter of opinion, but using T JJ in a knife fight, is the quickest way to the morque. Any one who holds a knife already know how NOT to get grapped.

Just think about it. If you were to use a knife, are you NOT well aware of all the block and grap disarming techniques? Are you not going to slash and cut and kick and punch as well? ie blending the knife as if it is just part of your hands and legs? Or are you going to make the usual mistake of taking a big jab? Are you not going to becareful that you don't let that knife hand been intercepted and the knife taken away from you?

So what makes you think the thugs and criminals who practice daily among themselves to win fights DON'T already know all the block and grap techniques? Most MA guys have this hallucination that the criminals are big fat and lazy. That just aint the reality. The criminals study and practice real fighting daily too. Yes, they practice knife fighting daily to harden themselves. That is why I always LMAO as the McDojo sifus pretending they can really hack it in the real world.

This is not a question of difference in timing and execution, which there is no point to argue about. This is about whether the defence is realistic or not.

Johnathan Napalm

03-27-2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by akja
....with the attacker continuing to slash. I addressed that earlier before you even brought it up. Thats what taking control of the wrist is all about. He can't slash or stab if you control his wrist movement. It dosen't matter how you stop his wrist and take control of it, but it would work much better if you new what to after you did stop his "stabbing or slashing" arm movement.....

So, what you are saying is you can just grap and trap, and that would "stop his wrist and take control of it"?

Johnathan Napalm

03-27-2003, 03:27 PM

James Kovacich

03-27-2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
So, what you are saying is you can just grap and trap, and that would "stop his wrist and take control of it"?

Not at all. What I'm saying is what you and maybe others too, are seeing this big elaborate lenthy technique of several movements to MAYBE get accomplished.

But that is so far from the truth. What it really is. The attacker is thrusting with the knife overhead. Stop that arm. Thats it. How we go about it will be differant, thats what we are are discussing and thats the point of the thread.

But no matter what. The answer for you and me is "stop that arm". Thats it. After stopping the arm, "our" training will kick in and we will go from there.

No matter what angle, a knife is a knife. I'm learning from these threads but it takes an open mind.

If you say no way, it will never work. Then it won't work, FOR YOU! Your defeated without even trying! Because your blinders are on. All you have to do is train. How you train is your choice. But in here you have the oppurtunity to pick the brains of thousnads of people. Some of them are as stubburn as me and you. So, there are plenty of people willing to "act right".

All you have to do is see the immediate task and act. If you we're to take control of the arm, then you should be able to "finish" in a fashion which is comfortable to you.

Johnathan Napalm

03-27-2003, 03:42 PM

There is a problem with presenting flawed techniques that will get people injured or killed.

I understand that you have to do something about that attacking knife hand. It is obviously ludicurous to simply give up. But you must take into account that the attacker already has contigency plan for your block and grap. It is very likely that as soon as you raise your arm to block or grap, that thrust or stab is turned into a slash filleting down your arm. Do you want to continue to bet your health and life that is not the case?

Fine. May be it is best to put things this way then.

Suppose you are attacked by a psycho using a diagonal upward stab from his right handed, with a 9 inch hunting knife. As soon as you block, that knife blade slashes along your blocking arm. How do you deal with this possibility?

James Kovacich

03-27-2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
There is a problem with presenting flawed techniques that will get people injured or killed.

I understand that you have to do something about that attacking knife hand. It is obviously ludicurous to simply give up. But you must take into account that the attacker already has contigency plan for your block and grap. It is very likely that as soon as you raise your arm to block or grap, that thrust or stab is turned into a slash filleting down your arm. Do you want to continue to bet your health and life that is not the case?

Fine. May be it is best to put things this way then.

Suppose you are attacked by a psycho using a diagonal upward stab from his right handed, with a 9 inch hunting knife. As soon as you block, that knife blade slashes along your blocking arm. How do you deal with this possibility?

I understand exactly your point of view but if you don't stop the attacking arm, then your dead. It makes more sense to train.

Also learning the techniques "the long way" is a part of the learning process. If you only learn the shortcuts to everything, then your art is going to suck.

Its up to "us" as individual martial artist to make "our" arts work for us.

The techniques are not flawed. What you don't see is that in reality, we don't know how or which way the fight will go. But if you are limited to say Muy Thai, then you will lose because Muy Thai is not well rounded. My art is similar to JKD but by definition, it is not. But the reactions of a JKD player is what will save your life and thats the way I practice and teach.

If you want to grow as amartial artist, there is no getting around learning the techniques the "long way".

If you don't have faith in the MA that much you should go to this forum, you'll fit right in.:D

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/

James Kovacich

03-27-2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Disarm? In knife fight, the first rule is DISENGAGE. Your best shot at coming out alive is to cripple him and HAUL ASS! (not necessary in that order!) lol

It is a matter of opinion, but using T JJ in a knife fight, is the quickest way to the morque. Any one who holds a knife already know how NOT to get grapped.

Just think about it. If you were to use a knife, are you NOT well aware of all the block and grap disarming techniques? Are you not going to slash and cut and kick and punch as well? ie blending the knife as if it is just part of your hands and legs? Or are you going to make the usual mistake of taking a big jab? Are you not going to becareful that you don't let that knife hand been intercepted and the knife taken away from you?

So what makes you think the thugs and criminals who practice daily among themselves to win fights DON'T already know all the block and grap techniques? Most MA guys have this hallucination that the criminals are big fat and lazy. That just aint the reality. The criminals study and practice real fighting daily too. Yes, they practice knife fighting daily to harden themselves. That is why I always LMAO as the McDojo sifus pretending they can really hack it in the real world.

This is not a question of difference in timing and execution, which there is no point to argue about. This is about whether the defence is realistic or not.

We're discussing techniques not TRACK N FIELD!:D

Mormegil

03-27-2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm

Suppose you are attacked by a psycho using a diagonal upward stab from his right handed, with a 9 inch hunting knife. As soon as you block, that knife blade slashes along your blocking arm. How do you deal with this possibility?

A 9 inch hunting knife would actually be a god send for a disarm. A 2 inch spyderco or box cutter is a b***. Most disarms I've learned go against the flat of the blade for an ejection (usually towards the oponent's face if possible)

How do I deal with the posibility. 2 ways:

1)Make sure it's not a static block. I would think more of a parry, and get out of the way using footwork. A static block is a target, a moving parry is a moving target. Moving targets are harder to hit.

2) Make sure I used my outside forearm for the "block." At least I won't bleed to death (as fast), like a cut on the inside forearm.

A couple of things I want to add. True, disengaging is the best stratagy. But this is a worse case scenario, you can't run (I think it was in my original post). In this case, the next most important thing in my opinion is to control the weapon hand. I may be grabbing his hand, and get a cross in the face, but I would prefer that to a slash to the vitals. This also explains why I would prefer to go to his outside, it will limit the use of his other limbs.

Out of curiousity, Johnathan, do you visualize people's techniques before presenting your analysis?

James Kovacich

03-27-2003, 06:27 PM

James Kovacich

03-27-2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Several points:
1. Don't get into a knife fight. (Duh! Obviously!) You will get slashed. And getting cut is one of the worst sensation in life. Ranks right upthere as feeling your car being crashed while you are sitting in there. Errrr...

2. If you have no option, the most effective way is, whether you grap or not, you must accompany your block, parry, or grap, or evasion with a STRIKE to the vital/weak points (groin, knees, solar plexus, throat, eyes etc). The dumbest thing is to assume you can arm wrestle the cold blade away with your jutjitsu ( :D sorry akja, )

If people don't care to listen to criticism of techniques, fine with me. I won't post then.

You don't understand Ju Jitsu or you've never seen anybody that was good enough at it which is the same for all arts. If you paid attention to my FIRST knife disarm post, I stated that while grabbing his right wrist with your left hand you can use your right hand to attack his right bicep. If you've ever been attacked in your bicep or seen it practiced you would know that alone may be enough to disarm the attacker.

Was that a good enough strike for you?:D

James Kovacich

03-27-2003, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by pesilat
:o Aw shucks, I just call 'em likes I sees 'em ;)

But, yeah, I think my diverse background has helped me a lot. Specifically, though, my approach to the diversity has helped. Rather than looking for the differences (which are easy to find), I look for the similarities. In doing so, I gain not only more breadth, but more depth at the same time.

I learn to spot the underlying concepts and principles that they share instead of focusing on what they do differently.

I think this is one of the common pitfalls that people encounter when cross training.

Mike

Johnathan Napalm, TAKE NOTE. You need to memorize that post! Its got you written all over it!:D

James Kovacich

03-27-2003, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
That is why I always LMAO as the McDojo sifus pretending they can really hack it in the real world.

This is not a question of difference in timing and execution, which there is no point to argue about. This is about whether the defence is realistic or not.

Just who are these MCDOJOS your talking about?

You know I must of jinxed myself. I made a comment on another thread that we went 10 pages in here without bickering. Then here comes JN talking about MA don't work.:D

James Kovacich

03-27-2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
If I'm not mistaken, a knife fighter will have to stick his arm out at some point to score a hit/cut (assuming he doesn't simply throw the knife at you). I'm not saying he will keep it flailing out there, but to put a knife into you, he will have to use his arm.

I know it's very, very difficult to get the disarm, and I really doubt I could get it on the first or second strike (or third) especially the one I described. You can only do the disarm, when the disarm "presents itself."

Mainly, I was talking about parrying the strike, and an "ideal" disarm. I have not been in a knife fight. But from my limited knife sparring experience, I think I can parry a knife thrust some of the time. The way you make it sound, it's completely hopeless, and I should just go and present my belly to be slashed.

Perhaps criticisms of individual techniques should be kept to personal messages.

I think you see things right. To disarm a knife attack is not only dangerous but something that needs to be mastered to make work. The same could be said about Muy Thai. what chance would a REAL Thai fighter have against a REAL fighter out of the Inosanto school.

I am assuming that the 2 fighters would be considered equal (same age, same weight,same amount of years training).

Lets see the Thai fighter has a few skills, but its all Thai, thus being held back by the limatations of one style. On the other hand a fighter from the Inosanto Academy has the oppurtunity to learn JKD, BJJ, Kali, Silat, Shootwrestling and probably about 10 or 15 more arts AND Muy Thai. Thus an example of "having no limitations as limitation, using no way as way". The Thai fighter would be neutralized and destroyed.

There are many things that I see when it comes to my way "offense is defense and defense id offense". But you throw a knife into the picture and throws out the window many techniques. But not all of them and thats what is important. People that say that won't work, just can't see it in their mind, so it must not work :rolleyes:, if they can't see it in their mind, then they themselves are the ones that can't fight.

Back to where I WAS headed with this. In Ju Jitsu its common to block in an arking motion, like a half circle. you know like the wax on, wax off. Its a "catch all" block. Theres nothing to master and it works.

Picture your self in any stance left lead or right lead and the attacker is in the conventional left lead. So he throws a powerful right cross. Do you block, parry, intercept?

A Ju Jitsu player only needs to tie that arm up. The circular block would go from the inside of the attackers punching arm and go over it and all the way around and back under his arm trapping his arm under your armpit. It stops the punch (the immediate threat) and you now have an arm to lock, crank or whatever, your choice. Just tying up the arm with your left arm will leave your right arm free to attack.

I mentioned that technique because I like to train like that. But that same technique could be my defeat if he had a knife in that arm that I trapped under my armpit.

Thats why we are in here talking about these scenarios. To see what works and when and where and how.:cool:

pesilat

03-28-2003, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by akja
Johnathan Napalm, TAKE NOTE. You need to memorize that post! Its got you written all over it!:D

Don't drag me into this ;)

I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone. It's just a common thing I see everywhere :)

Mike

Mormegil

03-28-2003, 04:18 PM

I was working the heavy bag at my college gym, and on one of the other bags was a boxer. We had an interesting discussion about on guard positions, covering up and such. He had a lot more experience than me - fighting for several years, while I've been sparring for a month.

He made some suggestions to me concerning my guard, that it was too open, compared to his compact infighter's boxing guard. After thinking it through, I realized lots of weaknesses to his guard open to non-boxer types (open to low line kicks, knees, elbows, throws etc.).

It got me thinking...scenario for this thread:

A boxer type with a tight compact infighter guard somehow slips in right in front of you (I'm saying his shoulders are a foot and half away from yours). You can pretty much tell he's going to start firing uppercuts. His arms are up, vertical, presenting his outside forearms about 3 to 4 inches of gap between, his fists are covering his temples, his chin is way down into his chest.

What do you do? Or what general tactics do you apply?

Johnathan Napalm

03-28-2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by akja
Thugs and criminals do not practice daily how to fight and and fat chance they know all the blocks....

Good lord, Isweated a cold sweat reading this post of yours. Please say it ain't so. You have no idea about life on the street, my friend...

What do they say about "Underestimating your opponents" ?

Johnathan Napalm

03-28-2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by akja
You don't understand Ju Jitsu or you've never seen anybody that was good enough at it which is the same for all arts. If you paid attention to my FIRST knife disarm post, I stated that while grabbing his right wrist with your left hand you can use your right hand to attack his right bicep. If you've ever been attacked in your bicep or seen it practiced you would know that alone may be enough to disarm the attacker.

Was that a good enough strike for you?:D

Question, what's the difference between a knife fight and defence against a knife attack?

Johnathan Napalm

03-28-2003, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by akja
Just who are these MCDOJOS your talking about?

You know I must of jinxed myself. I made a comment on another thread that we went 10 pages in here without bickering. Then here comes JN talking about MA don't work.:D

I see that whenever I pointed out the flaw in certain technique in reference to the presumed attack being unrealistic, I was taken as stating that MA does not work.

To clarify, MA works, provided that you train realistically. If you use defence techniques against knife attack to engage in a knife fight against trained knife fighter, then it won't work.

Johnathan Napalm

03-28-2003, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by akja
I understand exactly your point of view but if you don't stop the attacking arm, then your dead. It makes more sense to train.

Also learning the techniques "the long way" is a part of the learning process. If you only learn the shortcuts to everything, then your art is going to suck.

Its up to "us" as individual martial artist to make "our" arts work for us.

The techniques are not flawed. What you don't see is that in reality, we don't know how or which way the fight will go. But if you are limited to say Muy Thai, then you will lose because Muy Thai is not well rounded. My art is similar to JKD but by definition, it is not. But the reactions of a JKD player is what will save your life and thats the way I practice and teach.

If you want to grow as amartial artist, there is no getting around learning the techniques the "long way".

If you don't have faith in the MA that much you should go to this forum, you'll fit right in.:D

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/

I have never mentioned Muay Thai as the best choice of art (there is no such thing as just ONE BEST CHOICE), let alone for defence against knife attack. In any case, it is my fault to have pissed on TJJ in the first place. For that, I am sorry. lol So I am not going to rebutt your lecture here.

Mormegil

03-28-2003, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
If you use defence techniques against knife attack to engage in a knife fight against trained knife fighter, then it won't work.

What if you're a trained knife fighter without your knife?

I have to believe that something will work. It sounds so absolute the way you put it.

James Kovacich

03-29-2003, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Good lord, Isweated a cold sweat reading this post of yours. Please say it ain't so. You have no idea about life on the street, my friend

Been there, done that. :D

James Kovacich

03-29-2003, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by Mormegil
I was working the heavy bag at my college gym, and on one of the other bags was a boxer. We had an interesting discussion about on guard positions, covering up and such. He had a lot more experience than me - fighting for several years, while I've been sparring for a month.

He made some suggestions to me concerning my guard, that it was too open, compared to his compact infighter's boxing guard. After thinking it through, I realized lots of weaknesses to his guard open to non-boxer types (open to low line kicks, knees, elbows, throws etc.).

It got me thinking...scenario for this thread:

A boxer type with a tight compact infighter guard somehow slips in right in front of you (I'm saying his shoulders are a foot and half away from yours). You can pretty much tell he's going to start firing uppercuts. His arms are up, vertical, presenting his outside forearms about 3 to 4 inches of gap between, his fists are covering his temples, his chin is way down into his chest.

What do you do? Or what general tactics do you apply?

Double hand trap. You grab his wrists (on the the outside), your fingers and thumb go from the outside of the wrist and over the top to the inside. Your just reaching out straight and grabbing both wrists, your hands are better position because they are both on top. You can strike or whatever you like.

James Kovacich

03-29-2003, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I have never mentioned Muay Thai as the best choice of art (there is no such thing as just ONE BEST CHOICE), let alone for defence against knife attack. In any case, it is my fault to have pissed on TJJ in the first place. For that, I am sorry. lol So I am not going to rebutt your lecture here.

I used Thai (I new you could relate to Thai) as an example so that you would realize that all arts have weaknesses. I have more experience in BJJ but now I'm learning TJJ. The two ats go well together. They both have what the other lacks.

James Kovacich

03-29-2003, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
I see that whenever I pointed out the flaw in certain technique in reference to the presumed attack being unrealistic, I was taken as stating that MA does not work.

To clarify, MA works, provided that you train realistically. If you use defence techniques against knife attack to engage in a knife fight against trained knife fighter, then it won't work.

The idea is there is no choice but to die or defend.

James Kovacich

03-29-2003, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Question, what's the difference between a knife fight and defence against a knife attack?

A knife fight could be taken as both fighters have knives.

James Kovacich

03-29-2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by akja
Double hand trap. You grab his wrists (on the the outside), your fingers and thumb go from the outside of the wrist and over the top to the inside. Your just reaching out straight and grabbing both wrists, your hands are better position because they are both on top. You can strike or whatever you like.

Heres 4 pics that are "similar" to the double hand trap. The first, upper left is not exactly a double hand trap but very close. My right hand has his left hand trapped at his wrist. My left hand should be trapping his outside right wrist with my left hand and my fingers wrapping over the top of the wrist, instead of riding the top of his arm, which is just as good for me. Its important to have your thumbs along side your fingers to allow your swift movement to come.

The next 3 pics are just examples of how you can, after taking control of both of his arms, manuever your hands and ultimately your attack with quick, simple and direct movements.

That is a good fighting range for me and the double hand trap really leads to an endless amount of offense and defense.

Johnathan Napalm

03-29-2003, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
What if you're a trained knife fighter without your knife?

I have to believe that something will work. It sounds so absolute the way you put it.

Trained knife fighter w/o my knife? Hmmm.... Against another trained knife fighter ?

Well, to be brutally honest with you, a trained knife fighter (w/ his /her knife) will almost always prevail. I know some people will get indignant and want my head over this. But the experienced fighters will tell you that is the case. (Of course we are talking about a "competent" trained knife fighter. And we are talking about "almost always prevail". Needless to say that nothing in life is absolute.

Put your self in the picture. Suppose you are holding 2 sharp knives (push daggers would be better suited) in your hands. And now you are going to just treat them simply as extension of your hands. So you will strike (punch and kick) the way you normally would. Do not think in terms of stabbing and cutting or slashing. Just in terms of your bare hand strike and block techniques. Now, don't you think suddenly your lethal power has suddenly gone up 10X. Instead of a punch that hurts, you have a punch that wounds. Instead of blocking your knife hand strikes, your opponent is asking to be filletted. Instead of warding off your kicks, he has to be concerned about your hands that follow.

Suddenly, all the trapping may no longer work. Tangling with sharp knives is not the same as tangling with bare hands.

That is how a sharp edged weapon magnifies your power.

Everyone assumes that the knife fighters are just like the idiots portraited by Hollywood, who are there to be the punching bags for the good guys. lol

Johnathan Napalm

03-29-2003, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by akja
Been there, done that. :D

Then you should know better...

Mormegil

03-29-2003, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm

Put your self in the picture. Suppose you are holding 2 sharp knives (push daggers would be better suited) in your hands. And now you are going to just treat them simply as extension of your hands. So you will strike (punch and kick) the way you normally would. Do not think in terms of stabbing and cutting or slashing. Just in terms of your bare hand strike and block techniques. Now, don't you think suddenly your lethal power has suddenly gone up 10X. Instead of a punch that hurts, you have a punch that wounds. Instead of blocking your knife hand strikes, your opponent is asking to be filletted. Instead of warding off your kicks, he has to be concerned about your hands that follow.

That's kind of ironic. The first art I ever trained was Kali. That's a bladed weapon art, primarily. So first thing I learned were weapons, stick, sword, knife etc. The empty hand aspect is viewed as an extension of the weapon work. Most if not all of the Kali defenses can be done with a knife, and will work better that way.

For example, that nerve destruction (gunting) I mentioned a while back in the thread to defend against the cross, is really a knife technique. Instead of striking the brachial nerve (or whichever nerve) on the inside of the bicep as I parry, instead I'm slashing there, or the inside forearm to cut the tendons (and arteries) for the disarm. Another example was the upward vertical elbow to outside of the crossing arm. With a knife in icepick hold blade outward, that's really a slash to the forearm.

We worked knife offense, defense (armed and unarmed). In my opinion, arts that seriously train weapons can give you a fighting chance against an knife wielding opponent. I really don't think it's completely hopeless.

Johnathan Napalm

03-29-2003, 06:18 PM

Hopeless would be a strong word. But it would be beneficial that people realize what the odds are against them and not foolhardly getting over-confidence in themselves, only to realize the reality too little too late.

Techniques that teach you to defend attacks with knife are NOT worthless.

You asked earlier about what the commonly known knife disarm techniques are. Sorry for not answering this earlier. The commonly taught knife disarm methods usually assume 3 scenarios: 1. An attack by someone using the Regular hold ie "ice-pick" hold, and stabbing from top to bottom. 2. An oriental hold (blade on top, the thumb side vs the pinky finger side), a thrust from the bottom up. 3. A straight stab.

1. Regular hold attack: A X- block or coss hand block; turn and graps the arm; step to the left. Continue to twist the arm downward. Here, there are deviations. Some teaches you to use the attacker's momentum and push the knife into his groin. Others would continue to twist his arm and to disarm the knife.

Experience of the Russians (they practiced on the prisoners from their gulags): YOU MUST KICK to the groin or knee or solar plexus, as you block or immediately right after, before you continue.

Experience of the Israelis (they have to fend off terrorists): If the range is too close, then you are dead. No defense. If you noticed the attack, blocking is the only way to prevent harm. Then block. Immediately execute a counter strike. MUST execute counter strikes. The key to defence against knife attack is the counter strike. Their experience is, most attackers are programmed to stab multiple times. The skilled ones would NOT let you grap his arm at all. He would just deploy it like a spring to execute multiple stabs.

The preferred defense : if the range is there, bend your upper body away, execute side kick or round house to the knee or solar plexus. Another option is front kick to the chin. This of course, the range is there.

2. Oriental hold: Again, if the attack is from close range, and you have no choice, then , execute x-block or inside left arm block . Grap the arm, execute the "Cavalier leverage" ie. Twist it upward, outward and backward. The attacker would fall over. Then you can disarm or attack him with your kicks.

Again, real world experience dictates a kick to the groin or any other vital points is absolutely necessary , preferrable to be executed simultaneously. Also, it may be simply a block, counter strike and then JUMP clear or flee. This isn't heroic. But that is the lesson learned in real life. Even, block and JUMP clear, is necessary.

Preferred defence would be same as in 1. . Another option is move to the leftside as soon as you block (if you have to block) or if the range and timing is there before you block, then you are now away from the side zone, and can attack his side with punches or kicks. This is the Enshin Karate's favourite strategy: move to your side and pound you.

3. Straight stab. Same as in 2.

Noted, this is defence against knife attack. That is, you are NOT in stance, ready for one on one, knife fight. You are basically been ambushed and are not in stance. Actually, it is preferred that you DO NOT get into ready stance. You DO NOT want to tip off the attacker that he is dealing with a pro. B/c then he would use tricks and deceptions. There are also scenarios where you are threatened with a knife. That may or may not make the situation simpler. In any case, this is NOT knife fighting, just defence against knife attacks. Hope I am not overly critical. But most instructors do not realize the critical need for simulatneous counter attack to stop the attacker. Most also would use the same techniques in a knife fight, assuming (incorrectly ) that they would be attacked the same way.

Getting into a one-on-one knife fight, the opponents would use deceptions, tricks and what not, and would not make it that easy for you to use these block and grap routines. You would get filletted if you use these routines carelessly.

Mormegil

03-30-2003, 02:51 AM

Thanks for the reply on techniques. Very informative.

I can see your point about certain defenses being relatively vulnerable to an experienced knife fighter.

Just on a side note, I thought I would relate what happened to me earlier today. With this long (200+) thread going, I was thinking about the knife defense stuff we were discussing. Now, I posed the knife attack questions, and I didn't really have a good answer myself (or at least one I was vaguely confident in). I did post a possible counter, involving blocking/parrying the upward thrust with the outside of the left forearm, to the inside, and going for a wrist lock to control the weapon.

Well, I wasn't really sure if this technique would even be valid for the knife angle in the scenario (not even worying about an experienced knife fighter). So I asked a friend (NOT a trained knife fighter) to try to stab me with that angle using a rubber training knife. I just wanted to see if the mechanics of the block were valid. As he wasn't feinting, or even retracting for a cut very well, I had no problems blocking the thrust (mechanics valid!). As expected (even with an untrained person), getting control of the knife was a little harder. I got it on his second stab attempt, and went for the lock.

Here I have to agree with Johnathan that pain is necessary for any kind of disarm. Once I applied the wrist lock, he just let go (and kind of fell), before I could even attempt the knife strip. Funny thing is, after simulating a couple of knee strikes, I let him go, and he picked up the knife and "stabbed" me!

Johnathan Napalm

03-30-2003, 04:03 PM

I was in a hurry yesterday. Let me clarify .

I don't necessary favour the X-block (although the military teaches it; not that would mean anything), mainly for the fact that when you get ambushed, the reflexive action is one arm block from the inside out. That also gives you the other hand (right hand, assuming a right-handed attacker) to execute simultaneous or immediately followup counter strike. The counter strike is the key. It stalls the attacker's action through the CNS. Then, you can either jump back, more counter strike, or disarm.

Johnathan Napalm

03-30-2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
That's kind of ironic. The first art I ever trained was Kali. That's a bladed weapon art, primarily. So first thing I learned were weapons, stick, sword, knife etc. The empty hand aspect is viewed as an extension of the weapon work. Most if not all of the Kali defenses can be done with a knife, and will work better that way.

For example, that nerve destruction (gunting) I mentioned a while back in the thread to defend against the cross, is really a knife technique. Instead of striking the brachial nerve (or whichever nerve) on the inside of the bicep as I parry, instead I'm slashing there, or the inside forearm to cut the tendons (and arteries) for the disarm. Another example was the upward vertical elbow to outside of the crossing arm. With a knife in icepick hold blade outward, that's really a slash to the forearm.

We worked knife offense, defense (armed and unarmed). In my opinion, arts that seriously train weapons can give you a fighting chance against an knife wielding opponent. I really don't think it's completely hopeless.

You have illustrated how a knife in a trained hand, is a weapon to reckon with. Life is precious. There is no need to piss it away against the odd. Nothing is absolute. But you need to know what you are up against. Remember the saying, " For the guy with a hammer, every problem he sees is a nail"? :) Don't fall into the trap that MA is gonna solve all problems. lol

Johnathan Napalm

03-30-2003, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil ..... With a knife in icepick hold blade outward, that's really a slash to the forearm....

Who would want to use trapping against that? ;)

Mormegil

03-30-2003, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Who would want to use trapping against that? ;)

I like trapping. It's fun, but you're right. I wouldn't use trapping against a knife wielding opponent. I don't trap that well. I would revert to Kali knife fighting tactics, even if I didn't have a knife, or couldn't get it out in time.

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
There is no need to piss it away against the odd. Nothing is absolute. But you need to know what you are up against.

Totally in agreement. Here's another saying from Punong Guro Edgar Sulite (paraphrased): In a knife fight, you only have 1/3 chance of survival. There are 3 scenarios: 1) You are better than your opponent, he dies you live. 2) Your opponent is better than you, you di, he lives. 3) You are about equally matched, you both die.

But still, this is an "academic" discussion of techniques. So I think it's valid to talk about these techniques.

So back to the discussion. Nobody answered my boxer scenario. Here' it is again:

A boxer type with a tight compact infighter guard somehow slips in right in front of you (I'm saying his shoulders are a foot and half away from yours). You can pretty much tell he's going to start firing uppercuts. His arms are up, vertical, presenting his outside forearms about 3 to 4 inches of gap between, his fists are covering his temples, his chin is way down into his chest.

What do you do? Or what general tactics do you apply?

Johnathan Napalm

03-30-2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
......Totally in agreement. Here's another saying from Punong Guro Edgar Sulite (paraphrased): In a knife fight, you only have 1/3 chance of survival. There are 3 scenarios: 1) You are better than your opponent, he dies you live. 2) Your opponent is better than you, you di, he lives. 3) You are about equally matched, you both die....

hahahaha... love the 3rd scenario!

Johnathan Napalm

03-30-2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
......But still, this is an "academic" discussion of techniques. So I think it's valid to talk about these techniques....

Agreed.

So back to the discussion. Nobody answered my boxer scenario. Here' it is again:

A boxer type with a tight compact infighter guard somehow slips in right in front of you (I'm saying his shoulders are a foot and half away from yours). You can pretty much tell he's going to start firing uppercuts. His arms are up, vertical, presenting his outside forearms about 3 to 4 inches of gap between, his fists are covering his temples, his chin is way down into his chest.

What do you do? Or what general tactics do you apply?

Jump backward. (JKD's backward blast? ;) )

Ask him WTF his problem was. LOL

If he advanced, roundhouse to his knees. ALWAYS use a hybrid of thrusting and snapping kicks (you don't want to 1. let your leg be grapped, 2, leave an opening for him to move in to counter you. Snap kick. Snap back. Ready for follow up.

Other strike options, hybird sidekick, front kick. Other targets, head, hip, kidney.

Other footwork options: If he advances, and you are left lead, then pull left foot back slightly and diagonally to the left, draw right foot to the left. Now you are ready to pound him from his right side. A cut kick to the back of his (both) legs is nice. So is a right cross to his jaw. Or a left reverse punch to his right kidney.

If you are right lead, move to the right (right foot first) and proceed the same way.

James Kovacich

03-30-2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Hopeless would be a strong word. But it would be beneficial that people realize what the odds are against them and not foolhardly getting over-confidence in themselves, only to realize the reality too little too late.

Techniques that teach you to defend attacks with knife are NOT worthless.

You asked earlier about what the commonly known knife disarm techniques are. Sorry for not answering this earlier. The commonly taught knife disarm methods usually assume 3 scenarios: 1. An attack by someone using the Regular hold ie "ice-pick" hold, and stabbing from top to bottom. 2. An oriental hold (blade on top, the thumb side vs the pinky finger side), a thrust from the bottom up. 3. A straight stab.

1. Regular hold attack: A X- block or coss hand block; turn and graps the arm; step to the left. Continue to twist the arm downward. Here, there are deviations. Some teaches you to use the attacker's momentum and push the knife into his groin. Others would continue to twist his arm and to disarm the knife.

Experience of the Russians (they practiced on the prisoners from their gulags): YOU MUST KICK to the groin or knee or solar plexus, as you block or immediately right after, before you continue.

Experience of the Israelis (they have to fend off terrorists): If the range is too close, then you are dead. No defense. If you noticed the attack, blocking is the only way to prevent harm. Then block. Immediately execute a counter strike. MUST execute counter strikes. The key to defence against knife attack is the counter strike. Their experience is, most attackers are programmed to stab multiple times. The skilled ones would NOT let you grap his arm at all. He would just deploy it like a spring to execute multiple stabs.

The preferred defense : if the range is there, bend your upper body away, execute side kick or round house to the knee or solar plexus. Another option is front kick to the chin. This of course, the range is there.

2. Oriental hold: Again, if the attack is from close range, and you have no choice, then , execute x-block or inside left arm block . Grap the arm, execute the "Cavalier leverage" ie. Twist it upward, outward and backward. The attacker would fall over. Then you can disarm or attack him with your kicks.

Again, real world experience dictates a kick to the groin or any other vital points is absolutely necessary , preferrable to be executed simultaneously. Also, it may be simply a block, counter strike and then JUMP clear or flee. This isn't heroic. But that is the lesson learned in real life. Even, block and JUMP clear, is necessary.

Preferred defence would be same as in 1. . Another option is move to the leftside as soon as you block (if you have to block) or if the range and timing is there before you block, then you are now away from the side zone, and can attack his side with punches or kicks. This is the Enshin Karate's favourite strategy: move to your side and pound you.

3. Straight stab. Same as in 2.

Noted, this is defence against knife attack. That is, you are NOT in stance, ready for one on one, knife fight. You are basically been ambushed and are not in stance. Actually, it is preferred that you DO NOT get into ready stance. You DO NOT want to tip off the attacker that he is dealing with a pro. B/c then he would use tricks and deceptions. There are also scenarios where you are threatened with a knife. That may or may not make the situation simpler. In any case, this is NOT knife fighting, just defence against knife attacks. Hope I am not overly critical. But most instructors do not realize the critical need for simulatneous counter attack to stop the attacker. Most also would use the same techniques in a knife fight, assuming (incorrectly ) that they would be attacked the same way.

Getting into a one-on-one knife fight, the opponents would use deceptions, tricks and what not, and would not make it that easy for you to use these block and grap routines. You would get filletted if you use these routines carelessly.

You had all that inside your head and you chose to nitpick me, shame on you. :soapbox:

Speaking for myself. My answers come from the way "I flow", not from the textbook of defense. Realistically an ambush is an ambush. But the discussion is about reactions.

Please help me keep it civilized. I have to admit, I let my head go sometimes, but I've really been trying be like that.

I want to hear how you as well as others react compared to the way I see things.

James Kovacich

03-30-2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
I like trapping. It's fun, but you're right. I wouldn't use trapping against a knife wielding opponent. I don't trap that well. I would revert to Kali knife fighting tactics, even if I didn't have a knife, or couldn't get it out in time.

Totally in agreement. Here's another saying from Punong Guro Edgar Sulite (paraphrased): In a knife fight, you only have 1/3 chance of survival. There are 3 scenarios: 1) You are better than your opponent, he dies you live. 2) Your opponent is better than you, you di, he lives. 3) You are about equally matched, you both die.

But still, this is an "academic" discussion of techniques. So I think it's valid to talk about these techniques.

So back to the discussion. Nobody answered my boxer scenario. Here' it is again:

A boxer type with a tight compact infighter guard somehow slips in right in front of you (I'm saying his shoulders are a foot and half away from yours). You can pretty much tell he's going to start firing uppercuts. His arms are up, vertical, presenting his outside forearms about 3 to 4 inches of gap between, his fists are covering his temples, his chin is way down into his chest.

What do you do? Or what general tactics do you apply?

I answered that one with the double hand trap.

Johnathan Napalm

03-31-2003, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by akja
You had all that inside your head and you chose to nitpick me, shame on you. :soapbox:

Speaking for myself. My answers come from the way "I flow", not from the textbook of defense. Realistically an ambush is an ambush. But the discussion is about reactions.

Please help me keep it civilized. I have to admit, I let my head go sometimes, but I've really been trying be like that.

I want to hear how you as well as others react compared to the way I see things.

lol Care to tell me what the heck you are trying to say there? :)

Mormegil

03-31-2003, 02:06 PM

If I was going against a boxer, especially one who got on the inside, I would probably favor knees and elbows.

If he uppercuts, I would catch the uppercut while I lean back and deliver a thrusting knee ("TANG!!!" for all you MT guys).

Stepping down, I would probably throw a few diagonal downward elbows, and go for the plaum (sp?), MT style clinch, with my forearms pincering his neck, where I can continue to throw knees.

Alternatively, I might do some Silat throw - either an outside front sweep (sapu luar), after grabbing his opposite shoulder and twisting, or shoot in deep for a Kenjit Siko, or elbow compression, which I think was described earlier.

James Kovacich

03-31-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
If I was going against a boxer, especially one who got on the inside, I would probably favor knees and elbows.

If he uppercuts, I would catch the uppercut while I lean back and deliver a thrusting knee ("TANG!!!" for all you MT guys).

Stepping down, I would probably throw a few diagonal downward elbows, and go for the plaum (sp?), MT style clinch, with my forearms pincering his neck, where I can continue to throw knees.

Alternatively, I might do some Silat throw - either an outside front sweep (sapu luar), after grabbing his opposite shoulder and twisting, or shoot in deep for a Kenjit Siko, or elbow compression, which I think was described earlier.

From the double hand trap, you can pin both his arms with one hand.

After grabbing both wrists (you have a controlling grip, you're elbows are down), you're left arm (quickly) goes over the top of his right arm and grabbs his left wrist and simultaneously you bring your left elbow into your own ribs.

Your left elbow is essentially trapping his right arm between your elbow and your ribs and your left hand has his left wrist.

Your right hand immediately goes straight to the eyejab. Follow the eyejab with any number of strikes and you can after the eyejab , grab his right wrist with your right hand (same technique on with your other hand), bring in your right elbow to your ribs trapping his left arm with your right elbow and you have his right wrist trapped as well and you can deliver your left punch.

In theory you can go from trap and strike to trap and strike repeatedly.

This is also a variation for when someone tries to grab you.

Mormegil

03-31-2003, 03:28 PM

Interesting. I never thought of trapping them to your own ribs. I usually think of trapping / jamming them to their own ribs.

Might this technique be a problem if they try to counter by using your pulling energy and running into you with a shoulder or body check? That's a counter against lop sao I've seen. I'm not invalidating this technique, just posing a question - after all, for every technique, there is a counter, and a counter-counter...

James Kovacich

03-31-2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
Interesting. I never thought of trapping them to your own ribs. I usually think of trapping / jamming them to their own ribs.

Might this technique be a problem if they try to counter by using your pulling energy and running into you with a shoulder or body check? That's a counter against lop sao I've seen. I'm not invalidating this technique, just posing a question - after all, for every technique, there is a counter, and a counter-counter...

It would be most effective in a situation like you are "squaring off" or he is attempting to grab you, no excessive energy in either direction. You are facing eachother.

You need to try it, when you trap his arm in your ribs, his arm will bend and your forearm will be holding his arm near his elbow. It would be a good technique in close to enable yourself a quick eyejab which will lead to better strikes.

My opinion of someone running at you, prepare for the groundwork. There are techniques to prevent going down but its equally important that if you go to the ground is that end up in a good position.

James Kovacich

04-01-2003, 11:03 AM

ITS TIME FOR A NEW SCENARIO. ANY TAKERS?

James Kovacich

04-01-2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by akja
ITS TIME FOR A NEW SCENARIO. ANY TAKERS?

OK, here we go. I want to hear your defenses for a single or double leg takedown or both and a football type tackle.

Many of our peers, including one of my instructors don't practice grappling because they have techniques that will prevent them from being taken down.:D So there should be a good pool of defense techniques out there.

pesilat

04-01-2003, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by akja
OK, here we go. I want to hear your defenses for a single or double leg takedown or both and a football type tackle.

Many of our peers, including one of my instructors don't practice grappling because they have techniques that will prevent them from being taken down.:D So there should be a good pool of defense techniques out there.

I assume your big smiley face is because you know better than to think anyone can do anything to guarantee that they won't end up on the ground (takend down or otherwise).

The standard sprawl is good. Unfortunately, it's also "standard" and most groundfighters have a good repertoire of tools to counter the sprawl. But it's still a good tool.

Also, as a sidenote (and something you're probably aware of, just a pet peeve of mine), "grappling" and "groundfighting" are two different things :) "Grappling" can be done standing, kneeling, lying, floating, or flying (never know when you might get in a fight in a swimming pool or during freefall ;) ). "Groundfighting" means fighting on the ground and might include grappling, but can also include striking, weapons, etc.

Anyway ... to your actual question:

I'll again address this from a kind of stylistic perspective (these responses all have as much to do with my mood at the moment as they do with the specific arts/systems that I study).

Kali (if the player has doesn't have time to draw his blade): sprawl and start slamming elbows into available targets (targets may vary depending on circumstances) like side and back of head, neck, spine.

Silat: underhook the lead arm and lift while slamming other hand into the back of his head to do a "puter kepala" (head turning throw) - what Judo and Aikido would call a "kaiten nage"

Kuntao Silat: drop down and roll forward into and through his legs

Shen Chuan: sidestep toward leading arm, slap leading arm down, drop a "burning elbow" through the guy's ribs ("burning punch" is an elbow that trenches the surface instead of slamming), after the burning elbow, uppercut into his groin and sweep his leg with your arm, then head for the house.

Mike

James Kovacich

04-01-2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by pesilat
I assume your big smiley face is because you know better than to think anyone can do anything to guarantee that they won't end up on the ground (takend down or otherwise).

The standard sprawl is good. Unfortunately, it's also "standard" and most groundfighters have a good repertoire of tools to counter the sprawl. But it's still a good tool.

Also, as a sidenote (and something you're probably aware of, just a pet peeve of mine), "grappling" and "groundfighting" are two different things :) "Grappling" can be done standing, kneeling, lying, floating, or flying (never know when you might get in a fight in a swimming pool or during freefall ;) ). "Groundfighting" means fighting on the ground and might include grappling, but can also include striking, weapons, etc.

Anyway ... to your actual question:

I'll again address this from a kind of stylistic perspective (these responses all have as much to do with my mood at the moment as they do with the specific arts/systems that I study).

Kali (if the player has doesn't have time to draw his blade): sprawl and start slamming elbows into available targets (targets may vary depending on circumstances) like side and back of head, neck, spine.

Silat: underhook the lead arm and lift while slamming other hand into the back of his head to do a "puter kepala" (head turning throw) - what Judo and Aikido would call a "kaiten nage"

Kuntao Silat: drop down and roll forward into and through his legs

Shen Chuan: sidestep toward leading arm, slap leading arm down, drop a "burning elbow" through the guy's ribs ("burning punch" is an elbow that trenches the surface instead of slamming), after the burning elbow, uppercut into his groin and sweep his leg with your arm, then head for the house.

Mike

Your right, I do know the differance but neglected to use the word groundfighting.

Actually, I used the big smiley face because even though I didn't see it back when I was my instructors student. Today I use "variations" of his takedown defenses. Meaning I evolved like a circle, I set out on my own path and came back around to what he was saying in the first place. Just slightly differant from my interpetation of the tasks at hand.

But in the same breath, I came to have faith in my technique by putting those years on the mat in BJJ fixing my weaknesses.

I like the sprawl, it just happens without thinking like an immediate defense reaction. But I'd prefer to keep my base and control the assailants head, either at the back of the neck or a combination of the back of the neck and the sides of the head.

Also one hand behind the neck and one hand below the nose but above the lips. This can be painfull, you push up on the nose and and he will put his head back and with your other hand on the back of his neck you can guide him where you want him.

You can also use your that same hand is at the nose to strike.

I left out the exact fininsh on purpose. It can vary so much and I really don't know what I will "feel" at the moment. But after more comments come in I will relate from my view.:asian:

Mormegil

04-01-2003, 11:59 PM

I've never tried this, but what do you guys think?

As the guys comes in for the tackle, sink down, dropping one foot back (half sprawl?), blocking him with your forearms at the shoulders, and clamp in immediately for the MT plaum (sp?). Twist their neck, and hence their head, and hence their body to the same side as the foot you moved back. Either pull them downward and let go for a fall, or fire a knee.

At first, I was thinking regular sprawl, but I think that might be weird with the plaum.

I have no idea if this would be effective. Any comments?

pesilat

04-02-2003, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by Mormegil
I've never tried this, but what do you guys think?

As the guys comes in for the tackle, sink down, dropping one foot back (half sprawl?), blocking him with your forearms at the shoulders, and clamp in immediately for the MT plaum (sp?). Twist their neck, and hence their head, and hence their body to the same side as the foot you moved back. Either pull them downward and let go for a fall, or fire a knee.

At first, I was thinking regular sprawl, but I think that might be weird with the plaum.

I have no idea if this would be effective. Any comments?

You'll have to get low enough to be below their center of gravity. Otherwise, they'll bowl you over. If you could do that, though, then it should work fine.

Mike

vin2k0

04-02-2003, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by akja
The picture attached (I'M THE SHORT GUY) is a classic position that I like to be in. In this range I've nearly eliminated the striking range. I'm also in a decent controlling the position. Its easy to move into close range strikes or grappling whether it be on the ground or standing up.

I would argue that in the picture you have attached you are at no advantage over your opponent. You are in range for him to head butt you... he is facing you... his legs are open to kick you freely... The only advantage you may have here in real life is that you know martial arts and hopefully the aggressor doesn't, in which case you should have the upper hand. :asian:

James Kovacich

04-02-2003, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by vin2k0
I would argue that in the picture you have attached you are at no advantage over your opponent. You are in range for him to head butt you... he is facing you... his legs are open to kick you freely... The only advantage you may have here in real life is that you know martial arts and hopefully the aggressor doesn't, in which case you should have the upper hand. :asian:

Maybe from a Karate perspective its not as advantageous as it is in Gung-fu, but thats where my sensitivity is.

I spend a lot of time with my students (even biginners) right there in that range and we work in both directions. A fight can can go in any direction at any time. There is no way to predict or count on anything.

Many people work heavy on the outside ranges and to the opposite extreme many people are working on the ground which is fine. Many people say that most real fights end up on the ground. So if that has any truth to it, then which range is it that we are actually "losing control" of the fight and ending up on the ground? Pretty much that same range in that picture. That range is overlooked and anybody I teach will learn all the ranges including that range.

Its only natural, that if you work stand up fighting and ground grappling that you would work the in between as well.

The pic shows my range where I flow well and where I'm comfortable and thats the "advantage" that the picture can't tell the observer.:asian:

James Kovacich

04-02-2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by pesilat
You'll have to get low enough to be below their center of gravity. Otherwise, they'll bowl you over. If you could do that, though, then it should work fine.

Mike

Also an option when you get your center of gravity low enough is to put your arms underneath his armpits and control his arms upward keeping his energy flowing upward instead of downward. It helps you to stay in control and on your feet.

vin2k0

04-02-2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by akja
I spend a lot of time with my students (even biginners) right there in that range and we work in both directions. A fight can can go in any direction at any time. There is no way to predict or count on anything.

Many people work heavy on the outside ranges and to the opposite extreme many people are working on the ground which is fine. Many people say that most real fights end up on the ground. So if that has any truth to it, then which range is it that we are actually "losing control" of the fight and ending up on the ground? Pretty much that same range in that picture. That range is overlooked and anybody I teach will learn all the ranges including that range.
.:asian:

I do not dispute that we should practise from this position, we should indeed practise from every position, i was simply commenting that the position in the picture isnt a perfect position to be in... sorry if i was mis-understood.:(

Bod

04-02-2003, 01:00 PM

I would argue that in the picture you have attached you are at no advantage over your opponent. You are in range for him to head butt you... he is facing you... his legs are open to kick you freely... The only advantage you may have here in real life is that you know martial arts and hopefully the aggressor doesn't, in which case you should have the upper hand.

I disagree. Since the defenders arms are on top of the aggressors it make it very difficult for the aggressor to kick. The kick would be immediately telegraphed through the arms, and a swift push down would stop the motion immediately. It is in fact not only possible but easy to do this with your eyes shut.

The aggressor doesn't have the same advantage as to stopping the defender's kicks though ...

A headbutt or grappling is a danger, but closing the gap is difficult since the arms can be turned to the side, or pulled, neutralising such an attack. This takes more skill though in my experience.

You have to understand that this range is all about feeling the aggressor's moves rather than seeing them, and it is what the 'Southerny' Kung Fu styles excel in.

I don't mean to sound all preachy or anything, BTW, your objection was certainly valid, and shed a lot of light on the variations in style of the posters to this forum, and I have really enjoyed this thread so far.

Personally I like to be in even closer, because I am a judo man now, but even in full on grappling, the moves I mentioned above work well to control your opponent's whole body through the use of his arms alone.

On the subject of the forward tackle the defence depends on how low your opponent is and how fast he is coming at you.

If you cannot sink fast enough to get under him, and this is a real possibility, then you have to push him down sprawling a little. You may be able to strike down too, but I have never practiced this. I've never seen anyone push up from here, and I imagine striking or kicking up would be difficult. Even if you connect with an upwards kick, knocking him out even, you may still get bowled over. Correct me you kickers if you've had success this way.

I constantly push my opponents head into the mat in practice, when someone tries a surprise tackle, and this skill was very simple to learn. You don't really need to sprawl too much, but if you don't you have to move around your opponent, which is learned very quickly and instinctively.

If the person comes at you higher, then pushing down will be of no use, but you can get underneath him or move around him. I've found this sort of response harder to learn, because a low charge or leg grab is just that, and nothing more, but a bit higher up and there is a lot more variation, the whole gamut of fighting techniques in fact.

I'd like to see what the strikers and kickers have to say about the tackle. Are any of you allowed to do low tackles in sparring? I think the tackle is one of the most basic types of attack - i.e. heavy, long, force coming straight at you, so the response to this sort of attack should shed a lot of light onto the variations in style.

James Kovacich

04-02-2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by vin2k0
I do not dispute that we should practise from this position, we should indeed practise from every position, i was simply commenting that the position in the picture isnt a perfect position to be in... sorry if i was mis-understood.:(

Not misunderstood. We all see things from a differant perpective and thats what this thread is about. If we are able to see what others see then we should be able to grow as individual martial artists.

Bod

04-02-2003, 01:27 PM

I agree. Training with people from different styles is always interesting, but this is sort of discussion is almost as good.

James Kovacich

04-02-2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Bod
I disagree. Since the defenders arms are on top of the aggressors it make it very difficult for the aggressor to kick. The kick would be immediately telegraphed through the arms, and a swift push down would stop the motion immediately. It is in fact not only possible but easy to do this with your eyes shut.

The aggressor doesn't have the same advantage as to stopping the defender's kicks though ...

A headbutt or grappling is a danger, but closing the gap is difficult since the arms can be turned to the side, or pulled, neutralising such an attack. This takes more skill though in my experience.

You have to understand that this range is all about feeling the aggressor's moves rather than seeing them, and it is what the 'Southerny' Kung Fu styles excel in.

I don't mean to sound all preachy or anything, BTW, your objection was certainly valid, and shed a lot of light on the variations in style of the posters to this forum, and I have really enjoyed this thread so far.

Personally I like to be in even closer, because I am a judo man now, but even in full on grappling, the moves I mentioned above work well to control your opponent's whole body through the use of his arms alone.

On the subject of the forward tackle the defence depends on how low your opponent is and how fast he is coming at you.

If you cannot sink fast enough to get under him, and this is a real possibility, then you have to push him down sprawling a little. You may be able to strike down too, but I have never practiced this. I've never seen anyone push up from here, and I imagine striking or kicking up would be difficult. Even if you connect with an upwards kick, knocking him out even, you may still get bowled over. Correct me you kickers if you've had success this way.

I constantly push my opponents head into the mat in practice, when someone tries a surprise tackle, and this skill was very simple to learn. You don't really need to sprawl too much, but if you don't you have to move around your opponent, which is learned very quickly and instinctively.

If the person comes at you higher, then pushing down will be of no use, but you can get underneath him or move around him. I've found this sort of response harder to learn, because a low charge or leg grab is just that, and nothing more, but a bit higher up and there is a lot more variation, the whole gamut of fighting techniques in fact.

I'd like to see what the strikers and kickers have to say about the tackle. Are any of you allowed to do low tackles in sparring? I think the tackle is one of the most basic types of attack - i.e. heavy, long, force coming straight at you, so the response to this sort of attack should shed a lot of light onto the variations in style.

Thats a pretty good decription of what I see on the tackle. If hes low, controlling pressure on the head down, if he's upward, my arms under the armpit or go low and take him down. The takedown has to be swift and powerful and followed witha quick finish.

James Kovacich

04-04-2003, 08:24 AM

Whats your favorite techniques and why?

Mormegil

04-05-2003, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by akja
From the double hand trap, you can pin both his arms with one hand.

After grabbing both wrists (you have a controlling grip, you're elbows are down), you're left arm (quickly) goes over the top of his right arm and grabbs his left wrist and simultaneously you bring your left elbow into your own ribs.

Your left elbow is essentially trapping his right arm between your elbow and your ribs and your left hand has his left wrist.

Hmm. This sort of happened to me today while sparring.

Now, I know what you mean.

I was straight blasting (jik chun choi) not giving enough forward pressure, and he trapped both my arms with one of his. He then began punching me in the head. Luckaly for me, his trap wasn't that strong, I was able to wiggle up and pull him into a plaum (MT clinch). From there, I threw the requisite knees (simulated, of course - not enough padding).

Fun stuff.

pesilat

04-06-2003, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Mormegil
Hmm. This sort of happened to me today while sparring.

Now, I know what you mean.

I was straight blasting (jik chun choi) not giving enough forward pressure, and he trapped both my arms with one of his. He then began punching me in the head. Luckaly for me, his trap wasn't that strong, I was able to wiggle up and pull him into a plaum (MT clinch). From there, I threw the requisite knees (simulated, of course - not enough padding).

Fun stuff.

Something to remember about trapping (and something that is often overlooked by a lot of people) is that trapping isn't intended to hold the person's arms down for any major length of time. Trapping is intended to remove the obstacles between the weapon and target. A good trap will keep the obstacles out of the way long enough to land one or two shots. A lucky trap (or against someone who doesn't understand traps at all) will allow you to land more than a couple of shots.

But, hopefully, the one or two shots you land will be enough to give you the upper hand in the fight. Failing that, you still landed a couple of "freebie" shots and that's never a bad thing.

Mike