Sparring: More Harm Than Good?

[MJS]

In this (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1002718&postcount=23) thread, Allenjp made a comment that caught my eye and I wanted to start a seperate thread for discussion on the subject. He said this:



One other thing about some of the OP's posts, that I have tried to say time and again. If you feel that techniques that aren't used in free full contact sparring against fully resistant opponents can't be effective in a real fight, IMHO you are wrong. There are many, many techniques that are simply too DANGEROUS to practice at full speed in free sparring, because they are intended to seriously injure, maim, or even kill your opponent. That is why many disciplines, and individual schools feel that free sparring can lead to a fighter developing bad habits. In the stress of a real fight, concious thought for many people goes right out the window, and they revert back to what they most often do in practice, and if they practice too much in sparring, that will be non lethal or non injurious techniques, which may be just what you need to employ in a serious situation to quickly put an opponent out of comission and save your life.

Now, I'll preface this by saying that I'm in full agreement with what he said. Many arts, are frowned upon because of a lack of or very little sparring. But that does not mean that the art in itself is bad. Certain groups make fun of those that dont spar, usually poking fun at what they call, "The deadly" strikes such as eye shots, hits to the groin, etc.

An art that usually takes alot of heat is Ninjutsu, or more properly named, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Folks say that its useless because they don't spar and because the students of that art think that its too 'deadly' due to the dirty tricks.

Now, I don't feel that one should have to fall back on an eye shot to win a fight and unless you do it, you're going to lose. But, if you can't do those things, its one less tool that you have to use if needed. Then again, throwing on a pair of goggles, will allow those hits to the eyes to be trained, even in sparring. But, there are things that just can't be trained due to the nature of them. So while they're not done in sparring per se, they are still drilled, usually in techniques, and done in a slow fashion, ie: simulated. In other words, we can train a technique in which the persons neck would be broke, however, we make adjustments so we avoid that injury, yet the context is still there. :) I do think that sparring is good. However, I don't think that people should lose focus and assume that is all you need. Sparring and real fighting or SD are 2 different things. :)

Enough rambling and on with the question...do you feel that sparring is all thats needed or do you feel that it should be proportioned with the other aspects of the art?

[jkembry]

In my training we use slow-speed sparring and I have learned much from that...as well as watching others spar. Being new to MA (less than a year) I believe sparring should be proportional to other training, kata, bunkai, etc. I can only speak for the way I feel about my training in my particular style (Uechi-ryu). I am sure other styles will be different. It will be interesting to see what others think.

[Sukerkin]

Sparring is a useful adjunct where practical and it certainly helps those who have not come from a 'rough and tumble' background to not fear taking a hit or dishing one out.

I find it a good sign that this thread has come up actually as it makes a nice change to flip the coin over from all those threads naysaying kata/drills as a training format.

Kata is where you learn to do the techniques properly and with power. Sparring is practice for a different set of skills. Taking hits, as noted above and also learning a little about tactical changes and opportunities 'on the fly'.

There are things that are simply not practical (as in 'safe') to practise in sparring. For example, in common with other arts, in Lau there are strikes to 'sensitive' or potentially fatal areas and breaking techniques which you just cannot use in a fight that is not real.

[Grenadier]

The way I see it, if someone can throw a strong, accurate punch, with good timing, distance, focus, etc., and have its point of impact at the surface of the target (excellent control), then I see no reason why he can't aim that same punch 12 inches beyond the mere surface, in a real fight, since he certainly has the ability to land his punch where he intends for it to land.

Whether nor not the fist will be properly clenched, or whether he's going to be balanced or off-balance when he makes the impact, is a different matter, though, and that's something that does need some contact work. This does not, however, mean that sparring is the only way of learning such mechanics. For example, the said student could punch at a heavy bag that has been mounted against a wall, where a poorly clenched fist will be felt with any type of hard punch, and where bad balance will certainly be evident.

I have nothing against free sparring in a dojo, as long as the two fighters spar in a civil manner, and don't try to hit each others' vitals. If they want to throw some solid punches to each others' bodies, etc., then so be it. It gives people a chance to experience being hit, and how to deal with such situations, without having the multitude of injuries that would normally occur, if full face contact were allowed.

Sparring is a good tool to use in a dojo. However, it's not the only tool, and every teacher should have several tools at his access.

[Flying Crane]

My kenpo instructor assisted with the shodan test for a student from another school. The school in which this student trained has a heavy focus on sparring.

What my instructor noticed was this: when they were testing the student on his reactions to attacks, he ignored all of the self defense techniques that are the foundation of kenpo, and instead tried to spar his way out of the attack. Seems like no matter what the attack was, be it an arm grab, bearhug, strike, whatever, this student would try to wriggle away and then face the attacker and turn it into a sparring match. Had he simply done his techniques, or variants of such, he could have nullified the attack from the getgo.

[bowser666]

Sparring is just one ingredient in the recipe of becoming a good Martial Artist. Sparring is critical as all the techniques in the world don't amount to anything, if you have never tried to apply them. You also need to learn how to take a hit as well. Granted it is not as random or chaotic as a real street fight , but it will help teach you how to control your fear, adrenaline, etc....... It all comes with time.........

[exile]

My kenpo instructor assisted with the shodan test for a student from another school. The school in which this student trained has a heavy focus on sparring.

What my instructor noticed was this: when they were testing the student on his reactions to attacks, he ignored all of the self defense techniques that are the foundation of kenpo, and instead tried to spar his way out of the attack. Seems like no matter what the attack was, be it an arm grab, bearhug, strike, whatever, this student would try to wriggle away and then face the attacker and turn it into a sparring match. Had he simply done his techniques, or variants of such, he could have nullified the attack from the getgo.

And this is affliction is particularly acute in Taekwondo, meaning, the network of TKD schools which put so much emphasis on the Olympic sparring specialization of the art that they no longer know what SD applications are. Not being able to see the forest for the trees is one thing; cutting down all but one tree and then declaring that tree to be the forest is something else, and it describes the contemporary fate of TKD in much of North America. The nostrum seems to be, well, all of this stuff works if you just open up the distance and then use your kicks and whatnot. But realistically, you are very likely not going to get a chance to do that, and if you could do that, then you wouldn't need TKD, because you could just keep on going, in the opposite direction of your attacker, and get away! Minimal risk, minimal legal complications, minimal ethical issues. The point is, from an SD point of view, competence in a MA becomes critical just in those situations in which you can't open the distance, and your only alternative to getting damaged is close-in fighting—which often requires you to close the distance still further.

My take is, it's completely irresponsible for MA schools to sell sparring as preparation for the nasty, extremely unpleasant and perilous situations in which a dangerous bully, sadist or defective brings the threat of physical violence to your doorstep in a way that you can't ignore, or deflect, or escape from. Given the treasure-house of resources that the TMAs provide for just that situation, there's absolutely no excuse for McDojo/McDojangs to palm off strategies which require you to have eight feet of distance between you and your attacker as viable SD, or to claim that effective point-scoring has anything but an accidental relationship (at best) to your ability to protect yourself.

The problem is, as in your example, FC, a lot of people actually believe that learning to handle yourself under the basically antiseptic conditions of a ring match has anything to do with what you're facing when some belligerant jerk in a bar or convenience store lineup or wherever decides that all of his problems are your fault and you're gonna pay for that...

[Sukerkin]

That is a very accurately depicted picture of the falsity that over dependence on sparring can bring, Exile http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif.

I used to love sparring in my Lau days but even tho' we did what was deemed to be full contact, our instructors took care to tell us time and again that sparring was good practice for competitions (and our school used to win a LOT). What they warned us of was not to make any assumptions about the reality of fighting from our sparring.

It's that bit that I think gets lost sometimes in the Sparring versus Kata debates. Sparring, exclusively pursued without any other forms (yeah, MA pun attack :D!) of training, fosters bad technique. Kata exclusively, even with good visualisation, will always benefit from actually seeing and reacting to a physical person trying to hit you.

Kata and Sparring, where at all practicible, is superior in results than either alone.

[kempo-vjj]

I train in phillipino and silat with a mixture of other things. A while ago I attended a class where my children go and sparred a black belt from their school. It is a traditional Okinawan Goju school. I had never sparred before except like two step sparring maybe, slowly. I felt all out of sorts. My training is find an entry, destructions and take down/ take out, giving me my exit. Not playing tag. I felt at first like I was missing something from my training, but then I had to put it in perspective.

[Empty Hands]

You can drill techniques, even with partners, for many years until you can do them in your sleep. However, if you never try to apply those techniques in a chaotic situation where you don't know what is coming next and failure means a fist in the face, then when you face that situation your techniques will fail you.

"Hey, why didn't he leave his arm out when he punched so that I could arm bar him and unleash my 37 move technique of destruction!"

Sparring is also invaluable in other difficulties you will face. Only sparring can effectively teach you timing and distance in a fighting situation. Only sparring can teach you if your efforts at set-ups and deception are working. Only sparring will teach you what it takes to apply your techniques on the fly in a non-ideal situation.

That said, many schools seem to have their sparring sessions turn into generic kickboxing with nary a technique in sight. It is important to incorporate the rest of your system into your sparring. The reason many don't of course is that it is difficult to do. An important clue as to what might happen if you have to apply your techniques when your life is on the line and you have never trained with a resisting opponent!

[Andrew Green]

If in a real situation I will "fight as I train" and stick to the rules, not doing anything that is "dangerous" because that is how I train, will these people practicing deadly techniques not also "fight the way they train" and pretend to excecute deadly techniques without following through because that is how they train?

It seems like a very weak argument to me as that one comes out of it pretty naturally.

[stickarts]

Sparring is just one ingredient in the recipe of becoming a good Martial Artist. Sparring is critical as all the techniques in the world don't amount to anything, if you have never tried to apply them. You also need to learn how to take a hit as well. Granted it is not as random or chaotic as a real street fight , but it will help teach you how to control your fear, adrenaline, etc....... It all comes with time.........

These comments touch upon my view as well. Sparring is required with us before you can test for blackbelt. I have found sparring to be a very valuable training method for timing, learning what you can give and take, conditioning, and confidence building. Its certainly not a real fight and its important that students know that, but it does still develop skills.
Not only that, I have found sparring to be lots of fun! Getting in there and learning and also really going for it. :0)

[Kacey]

As with anything else in life - in martial arts or outside of it - there needs to be a balance. Each piece of a martial art is there for a reason, and needs to be presented to students and practiced in a balanced amount; otherwise, you run the risk of missing something valuable. Sparring is an important part of martial arts to me - and the one that freaked me out the most when I started - everything has its place, and needs to be included.

If you don't agree with the above, well, differences make the world more interesting! And there are a wide variety of MAs and classes out there that will fit the preferences of any practitioner - so enjoy!

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Great topic!
I think sparring/martial sports are very valuable tools but I think there is a tendency in some circles to overemphasize sparring and grappling matches as representative of fighting ability and what works in a fight. You may have a better idea of how you perform under pressure but you run the risk of conditioning yourself to respond improperly to dangerous situations.

I'm reminded of an article I read a while back about a professional MMA fighter who was attacked in a back alley in Las Vegas by two thugs. The fighter scooped one of the thugs up in a double-leg takedown and slammed his head against a dumpster, knocking him out cold. The other thug pulled out a knife and tried to stab the fighter. The fighter side-stepped and executed a beautiful arm-drag, taking the criminal down and putting him in cross-legged arm bar. The bad guy began tapping and the MMA fighter let go and was thereby stabbed an ungodly number of times. I think it was 47 but I could be wrong.

Another example was the time the two guys on TUF got in a fight in the backyard. The one guy tried to pull guard and arm-bar but the other lifted him up and slammed his head on the concrete pool deck.

My teacher also told me story of a fight he got into outside a bar. My teacher said he threw a perfect roundhouse kick to the head and said to himself, "Yeah, I scored a point!" and then realized he was in a fight with an annoyed drunk guy that he just tapped on the head with his foot.

_Don Flatt

[FearlessFreep]

Said it before and say it again

When all else is equal, size wins
When all else is equal, speed wins
When all else is equal, strength wins
When all else is equal, technique wins
When all else is equal, training wins
When all else is equal, experience wins
When all else is equal, conditioning wins
When all else is equal, will wins
Things are never equal


My point behind that concept is that any encounter is going to be an n-dimensional matrix of interactions, if you will.

Look at any sport. In football does good defense beat good offense? You can't say because my good pass rush may beat your good pass blocking but your defense if just enough to beat my mediocre offense so that my superior defense is not enough to stop your good enough offense from scoring just enough to win. Too many dimensions to pin it on one idea.

From that standpoint, softball is better self-defense training than bowling, even if neither is really good training it in it's own right.

Is Tae Kwon Do Olympic sparring really good training for a street fight? Well, it does encourage speed, stamina, strength, and quick thinking... which is good and may be good enough, even if the ingrained tactics and techniques are not the greatest training for that venue. Then againm you could say the same about football, or soccer.

Full contact sparring, no contact sparring, forms, 'liveness' training, partner drills...what's the best mix? Hmm.... I dunno..but they all become part of the whole.

So you and I are in a fight...does your 'unrealistic sparring tactics and techniques' beat my 'more realistic but never pressure tested tactics and techniques'.... um.. I don't know. Probably then comes down to who is bigger and who is faster and who wants to live more and...lots of things.

I guess it seems to me that there are a lot of ways to train and your chance of survival depends not just in the mechanisms of your training but a lot fo things about how you apply it to your own body and can draw upon it when in need.

[sgtmac_46]

My Hyena style is far too deadly to spar with......it would kill virtually anyone who tried. ;)

Seriously, if you want to learn how to impress your friends and neighbors with your Staff routine to music, sparring isn't important. If you want to know how to engage in physical conflict with another human being, sparring is CRITICAL!

[Flying Crane]

perhaps the real question is....what KIND of sparring?

[Sukerkin]

Absolutely, FC. Sparring, at the end of the day is playing at fighting. Noone, so far at least, has said that it has no value - it's just that you have to keep it's value in perspective.

As with anything in the martial arts, you have to beware of extremes and meld elements together that compliment each other.

So that said, anyone fancy sparring with me? What d'ya mean it's dangerous? Doesn't everyone practice their emptyhand arts against live blade katana's? :lol:.

[Flying Crane]

So that said, anyone fancy sparring with me?


Sure. I'll use my 80# recurve bow and a score of bodkins. Starting at 50 meters...

:rofl:

[Sukerkin]

You will note that I very carefully delineated the parameters - smart-pant :p :lol:.

[Brian S]

I agree with alot that has been touched on so far, including the original poster.
For instance: A kick to an opponents inside leg forcing them to bend and turn,the head and jaw are grabbed and quickly torqued in the opposite direction. To me this seems applicable against an untrained resisting (unsuspecting) attacker. It also seems realistic that the outcome would be terrible for him. Yet it is a common move (bunkai)practiced in kata. I don't think anyone would want to subject themsleves as a guinea pig for this one.

[MJS]

You can drill techniques, even with partners, for many years until you can do them in your sleep. However, if you never try to apply those techniques in a chaotic situation where you don't know what is coming next and failure means a fist in the face, then when you face that situation your techniques will fail you.

Good points. This is why, IMHO, one should be sure to train their techniques with resistance and some movement. This past week, I was going thru some spontanious drills with my instructor. Just random attacks...I had no idea what he was going to throw. So, he'd throw his shot, and I'd begin my defense. During the strikes that I was throwing to him, he'd not only offer some resistance, but attempt to block and counter. We were still working techs. and not sparring. Certainly gives a new outlook to doing something, when your opponent is fighting back/resisting, rather than just standing there. :)

[MJS]

If in a real situation I will "fight as I train" and stick to the rules, not doing anything that is "dangerous" because that is how I train, will these people practicing deadly techniques not also "fight the way they train" and pretend to excecute deadly techniques without following through because that is how they train?

It seems like a very weak argument to me as that one comes out of it pretty naturally.

Now,couldn't the same be said of BJJ? I mean, I'm sure people don't break arms, KO on a regular basis or choke out their opponents each class. So, it comes down to...where we draw the line.

[MJS]

Sparring is a useful adjunct where practical and it certainly helps those who have not come from a 'rough and tumble' background to not fear taking a hit or dishing one out.

I find it a good sign that this thread has come up actually as it makes a nice change to flip the coin over from all those threads naysaying kata/drills as a training format.

Kata is where you learn to do the techniques properly and with power. Sparring is practice for a different set of skills. Taking hits, as noted above and also learning a little about tactical changes and opportunities 'on the fly'.

There are things that are simply not practical (as in 'safe') to practise in sparring. For example, in common with other arts, in Lau there are strikes to 'sensitive' or potentially fatal areas and breaking techniques which you just cannot use in a fight that is not real.

Good points. This goes right back to what I said in my OP. Its funny, because if we stop and think about it, there is alot that we train that we need to use caution with, yet even though I'm not actually hitting certain targets with full speed/power, I still find myself going for those targets.

On the other hand, like someone already mentioned here, if we don't really put our fingers thru their eyes, and we stop, whats to say that if we really want to do that eye gouge, we won't stop? In this case, and this is just my opinion...:)...but I'm going to say that alot of it again, falls on how you train. If you're already conditioned to do those strikes, I feel its going to be more second nature.

[MarkC]

"So that said, anyone fancy sparring with me? What d'ya mean it's dangerous? Doesn't everyone practice their emptyhand arts against live blade katana's?"

Up to this point in my life, I haven't been attacked by anyone wielding a katana, or any type of sword.:)

[kidswarrior]

My teacher also told me story of a fight he got into outside a bar. My teacher said he threw a perfect roundhouse kick to the head and said to himself, "Yeah, I scored a point!" and then realized he was in a fight with an annoyed drunk guy that he just tapped on the head with his foot.

_Don FlattWhich brings up a *sidebar* I'd like to make. Sparring in an antiseptic environment may be the only way to stress test ones ability to...take a hit, find the range, etc, etc. (add your own list), for someone who's never been in a fight. But some people have a fairly rich background in *street* (or whatever you want to call it) fighting. For such people, I see sparring as a step back, not forward.

K-G's instructor's fight is a humorous case in point (hope he came out of that OK :)).

[kidswarrior]

You will note that I very carefully delineated the parameters - smart-pant :p :lol:.That's OK, I understand your rules and am willing to accept. :asian: But as I believe Michael was intimating, some of us cheat. :D Can you say, cut-down scattergun?

[Sukerkin]

Bah! Have you not seen that episode of The New Avengers? I shall swat your puny missiles aside with the might of my yado :lol:.

[exile]

Good points. This is why, IMHO, one should be sure to train their techniques with resistance and some movement. This past week, I was going thru some spontanious drills with my instructor. Just random attacks...I had no idea what he was going to throw. So, he'd throw his shot, and I'd begin my defense. During the strikes that I was throwing to him, he'd not only offer some resistance, but attempt to block and counter. We were still working techs. and not sparring. Certainly gives a new outlook to doing something, when your opponent is fighting back/resisting, rather than just standing there. :)

This is a point that is consistently, infuriatingly overlooked in many discussions of kata, hyungs, forms, patterns—call 'em what you will. These teaching tools give you instruction in what to do, but they cannot possibly teach you, in themselves, to do it. Only you can do that, by just this sort of 'pressure testing', noncompliant 'live' CQ training, kata-based sparring—again, call it what you will. It's a step you can't leave out. And the trouble is, if you're going to do it right, it's going to be somewhat unpleasant, possibly rather painful, and, in rare cases, a bit more damaging than you want. One of the biggest advocates of this type of training, Iain Abernethy, say this about it in his April, 2007 article in Black Belt, 'Making Kata Work'"


If you wish to use the form's techniques and principles in live situations, you need to practice against noncompliant opponents because that's what you'll be facing... I've bled, broken bones and dislocated joints through my own adventures, so I fully appreciate that heavy contact isn't for everyone...

It's essential to gain live experience in applying the fighting techniques and principles recorded by kata. Without it, all the knowledge you gain from kata study will be theoretical. It's foolish to expect this theoretical knowledge to miraculously become practical knowledge when you need it.

(p. 103). Pretty sobering, eh?

But it's not surprising. Look at what kids go through at, say, Marine boot camp. Horrible discomfort, pressure-testing under fire from live ammo, severe physical stress... because the reality of war is even more horrible, and there's no way to prepare a soldier for actual combat other than training under the nastiest conditions imaginable... and that still won't be nasty enough, probably. And it's still more severe for special ops outfits like the Rangers, the Green Berets, the British SBS/SAS, and the Israeli commando units whose names themselves are kept completely secret. The message is, if you want to survive conflict, you have to train to that level of conflict, or as close to it as possible. That's what Abernethy is saying, and warning us about, even while advocating that kind of training.


Which brings up a *sidebar* I'd like to make. Sparring in an antiseptic environment may be the only way to stress test ones ability to...take a hit, find the range, etc, etc. (add your own list), for someone who's never been in a fight. But some people have a fairly rich background in *street* (or whatever you want to call it) fighting. For such people, I see sparring as a step back, not forward.

Exactly. When you get down to it, you are going against someone who has done this before. And if you haven't done it before, at least in a very realistic 'simulator', you're going in at a severe disadvantage.

The problem is, fighting, real survival fighting, is about as unpleasant an experience as anyone can imagine. When you strip away all the media sanitization and choreography, it's about broken bones, damaged joints and blunt force trauma administered with your own limbs. We hate to think about it. A lot of this emphasis on etiquette, on the 'cultural' aspects (as though we could really get into the mindset of the people who originally created these arts), on all of that sort of thing, strikes me as an avoidance mechanism to distract ourselves from the basic irreducible facts of the TMAs: these skill sets were meant to do major damage, under frightening circumstances. If you're not willing to train them for that use, then you're making a big mistake in thinking they'll help you, should the worst possible sort of trouble come your way...

[jks9199]

I've said this before. I'm sure I'll say it again.

Sparring is ONE way of practicing the techniques you've learned against a partner. It's not the only way. It's a poor comparison to a real fight -- and even poorer to a real attack. But sparring is one more way to see how some sorts of pressure feel. It's a way to find out what it feels like to hit, and be hit, and to continue to function.

You have to couple sparring with drill (yes, kata is just one form of drilling when you boil it down), as well as work with a partner who becomes increasingly non-compliant as your confidence and comfort increases. You have to do exercises that simulate what may happen in a real attack, with enough of a safety factor that your training partners can help you prepare.

Is sparring a help or a hurt? It depends on your goals and on how you're sparring. The first experience I had in the police academy of hitting a role player -- I tagged him nicely, pulling my punches just like I would in class. I was nice... I hit him several times, in good targets... but they weren't effective. Too much of my training had focused on pulling punches. (The next time I got to hit a role player... he saw stars for about 20 minutes. Through headgear and mats on the floor.) Now, if I were to go into a tournament tomorrow, I'd have a problem. I'd probably do poorly, and lose -- but I bet the guy(s) I fought wouldn't want to face me outside the ring. Why? Too much of my training of late has been to do harm, quickly and effectively. Not play a specialized game of tag.

[jks9199]

The way I see it, if someone can throw a strong, accurate punch, with good timing, distance, focus, etc., and have its point of impact at the surface of the target (excellent control), then I see no reason why he can't aim that same punch 12 inches beyond the mere surface, in a real fight, since he certainly has the ability to land his punch where he intends for it to land.

But if he doesn't practice delivering a strike, through a variety of methods of practice, he will stop that strike in the real deal. That's what he's practiced, and it's what he'll do under pressure. I've proven this through personal experience.


Whether nor not the fist will be properly clenched, or whether he's going to be balanced or off-balance when he makes the impact, is a different matter, though, and that's something that does need some contact work. This does not, however, mean that sparring is the only way of learning such mechanics. For example, the said student could punch at a heavy bag that has been mounted against a wall, where a poorly clenched fist will be felt with any type of hard punch, and where bad balance will certainly be evident.

These are all good methods. None are adequate by themselves.


I have nothing against free sparring in a dojo, as long as the two fighters spar in a civil manner, and don't try to hit each others' vitals. If they want to throw some solid punches to each others' bodies, etc., then so be it. It gives people a chance to experience being hit, and how to deal with such situations, without having the multitude of injuries that would normally occur, if full face contact were allowed.

Sparring is a good tool to use in a dojo. However, it's not the only tool, and every teacher should have several tools at his access.
Your final line says it all. Sparring is but ONE method of practice; each has its place in training.

[Deaf Smith]

Sure sprring helps. Lots of good training methods help. And all can hurt if you don't keep you prespective as to what you are doing.

Kind of like the debate over if IPSC shooting helps or hurts ones practice for defensive skills. Even the SF learn from IPSC masters. They have found out all trigger time is good. Just keep it in prespective.

Deaf

[allenjp]

Now,couldn't the same be said of BJJ? I mean, I'm sure people don't break arms, KO on a regular basis or choke out their opponents each class. So, it comes down to...where we draw the line.

Have you ever sparred in a BJJ class? We don't break limbs or choke people out on a regular basis, or at least we don't mean to, but it does happen (getting choked unconcious is probably more common than broken limbs, although two people in my school have been out for weeks with bone breaks). The thing is that the way we spar, somone has to tap out, and you are taught not to tap out until you are convinced you have no way out. And they will continue to apply more and more pressure on that armbar or choke until you tap out, because if you don't tap, they don't think they have applied the technique correctly. So if your arm gets broken, or you get choked unconcious it is your fault because you didn't tap fast enough. So in that system, you know that the techniques are working, and the tap is effectively your partner asking you for mercy in not breaking his arm or continuing to apply the choke until he is dead, because he has tried and is unable to escape your technique. But you apply the techniques the exact same way you would in a real fight. All you have to do in a real fight is not let go.

Since my quote started this thread I want to clarify something. I don't think sparring is bad. But it has to be done the right way, and no it is not tne ONLY way to learn to apply techniques effectively. I think that sparring IS a good way to lose the fear of getting punched, and learning SOMEWHAT not to let your nerves disable you in a fight. But it CAN lead to bad habits if not done correctly, or if it is relied upon too heavily, without thinking of the implications of it.

One example I can think of is this: most schools don't spar with bare knuckles, they use gloves, and with good reason. Have you ever hit someone in the head with your bare knuckles? If not, let me tell you, it HURTS. And many, many times people break their hands doing it. So what happens then? If you normally spar with gloves, but you don't have time to put your gloves on before some jerk starts swingin' at you, so you punch him and break your hand and now you are unable to continue to punch him effectively. If you have not trained for this contigency in all your sparring, and if sparring is what you rely on to train for a real fight, you are now screwed. I think that all forms of training are valid if one keeps the right mindset about them, and keeps an open mind.

This is why I have said before that when I am training in BJJ I always keep in mind that in a real fight I most likely will not be fighting someone who is wearing a thick, heavy Gi. So It's likely I won't be able to use many of the Gi chokes that we practice so much in a SD situation. Some of those chokes will work however with a tee shirt, and so I am constatnly testing them on someone with a tee shirt to see which ones will work. I also ask my instructor frequently if he thinks certain techniques will work on someone wearing something other than a Gi. Another thing we do a lot is grab the Gi sleeves to control an arm, well with a tee shirt that won't work either so in class I try to always modify the hold and hold the wrist or the elbow directly without using the sleeve.

In the end I think it's all about mindset. My point in my previous post was to not DISCOUNT techniques JUST because they are not trained in sparring.

Sorry about the super long post...

[MJS]

Have you ever sparred in a BJJ class?

Yes, many times. :)



We don't break limbs or choke people out on a regular basis, or at least we don't mean to, but it does happen (getting choked unconcious is probably more common than broken limbs, although two people in my school have been out for weeks with bone breaks).

Since I've been grappling, my most serious injury was to my knee. This was done by a very new person, who, IMHO, felt it necessary to drift from the subject of the class, and crank my knee. I'll spare the few words I used and what I did, but it wasn't long before he knew his error and the meaning of control. :)


The thing is that the way we spar, somone has to tap out, and you are taught not to tap out until you are convinced you have no way out. And they will continue to apply more and more pressure on that armbar or choke until you tap out, because if you don't tap, they don't think they have applied the technique correctly. So if your arm gets broken, or you get choked unconcious it is your fault because you didn't tap fast enough. So in that system, you know that the techniques are working, and the tap is effectively your partner asking you for mercy in not breaking his arm or continuing to apply the choke until he is dead, because he has tried and is unable to escape your technique. But you apply the techniques the exact same way you would in a real fight. All you have to do in a real fight is not let go.

But, I would think that broken arms are not happening on a regular basis. If they are, the training partners will be few and far between. :) Sure, when I roll, and find myself in a bad position, I try to escape. However, safety is first on my mind at least. I'm not going to sacrifice my arm because of ego. :)

I guess thats what sparked that comment I made. I'd say that in most cases, someone will tap before the serious injury happens. So most of the time, like with our empty hand techniques which involve eye shots, breaks, etc., we never go all the way.


Since my quote started this thread I want to clarify something. I don't think sparring is bad. But it has to be done the right way, and no it is not tne ONLY way to learn to apply techniques effectively. I think that sparring IS a good way to lose the fear of getting punched, and learning SOMEWHAT not to let your nerves disable you in a fight. But it CAN lead to bad habits if not done correctly, or if it is relied upon too heavily, without thinking of the implications of it.

Agreed. :) I am certainly not against it, and I apologize if any of my posts gave that impression. :)


One example I can think of is this: most schools don't spar with bare knuckles, they use gloves, and with good reason. Have you ever hit someone in the head with your bare knuckles? If not, let me tell you, it HURTS. And many, many times people break their hands doing it. So what happens then? If you normally spar with gloves, but you don't have time to put your gloves on before some jerk starts swingin' at you, so you punch him and break your hand and now you are unable to continue to punch him effectively. If you have not trained for this contigency in all your sparring, and if sparring is what you rely on to train for a real fight, you are now screwed. I think that all forms of training are valid if one keeps the right mindset about them, and keeps an open mind.

Agreed.


This is why I have said before that when I am training in BJJ I always keep in mind that in a real fight I most likely will not be fighting someone who is wearing a thick, heavy Gi. So It's likely I won't be able to use many of the Gi chokes that we practice so much in a SD situation. Some of those chokes will work however with a tee shirt, and so I am constatnly testing them on someone with a tee shirt to see which ones will work. I also ask my instructor frequently if he thinks certain techniques will work on someone wearing something other than a Gi. Another thing we do a lot is grab the Gi sleeves to control an arm, well with a tee shirt that won't work either so in class I try to always modify the hold and hold the wrist or the elbow directly without using the sleeve.

Agreed again. Certainly a good idea to be well rounded in all aspects.:)


In the end I think it's all about mindset. My point in my previous post was to not DISCOUNT techniques JUST because they are not trained in sparring.

Lots of agreeing going on here! LOL! :) Like I said, I've said the same thing to folks that feel that if you can't do it in sparring......


Sorry about the super long post...

No worries, it was a great post!

Mike

[allenjp]

Completely off topic but...

can someone please tell me how to quote only part of someone's post?

Now back on topic...

MJS, thanks, I guess we'll just have to agree to AGREE on almost everything...LOL

Agreed, these injuries don't happen often thankfully...

The difference between BJJ techniques and say, eye gouges, in sparring IMHO is that you really can't ever apply an eye gouge full force in sparring because you'll poke out your partner's eyes. With say, a choke, I can actually apply that choke full force, the same way I would in a real fight. I am therefore really CHOKING my partner, but I let go when he asks me to. In a real fight, all I have to do is refuse to let go when asked to do so.

Hope that doesn't seem confusing, I confuse myself often...

[MJS]

Completely off topic but...

[quote]can someone please tell me how to quote only part of someone's post?

Use these [ ] with the word quote in between them, in the beginning of the post you want to quote. At the end, do the same thing, but put a / before the word quote. :)

Now back on topic...


MJS, thanks, I guess we'll just have to agree to AGREE on almost everything...LOL

Sounds good! :)



The difference between BJJ techniques and say, eye gouges, in sparring IMHO is that you really can't ever apply an eye gouge full force in sparring because you'll poke out your partner's eyes. With say, a choke, I can actually apply that choke full force, the same way I would in a real fight. I am therefore really CHOKING my partner, but I let go when he asks me to. In a real fight, all I have to do is refuse to let go when asked to do so.

Hope that doesn't seem confusing, I confuse myself often...

Good points. :) I guess I was just looking at the eye shots like this...due to their sensitive nature, it doesnt take much to get some reaction. An eye lash, sand, etc., in the eye and it takes alot out of you. Going with that, IMO, it shouldn't take much to get a reaction.

Speaking for myself only, but I really don't look at any shot as a fight stopper. I like to use one shot to set up the next, and the next, and.... If I'm lucky enough to have the guy drop to the ground after a groin shot, great for me. :) But, I'm not banking on that. Even if the person moves, I still got a reaction. Hopefully, I can use that to my advantage and follow up with something else.

[allenjp]

Speaking for myself only, but I really don't look at any shot as a fight stopper. I like to use one shot to set up the next, and the next, and.... If I'm lucky enough to have the guy drop to the ground after a groin shot, great for me. :) But, I'm not banking on that. Even if the person moves, I still got a reaction. Hopefully, I can use that to my advantage and follow up with something else.

I agree with that, you can't really count on any one technique to end a fight. I watched the Jackson-Griffin fight on Saturday (killer fight BTW) and the commentator said that in a fight he had in Brazil, Griffin had a broken arm and refused to tap, continued fighting and won the fight with his good arm. Sometimes you gotta realize that you need to have contingencies set up in case your "knock out shot" doesn't.

Thanks for teaching me the trick.

[jks9199]

[quote=allenjp;1006125]Completely off topic but...



Use these [ ] with the word quote in between them, in the beginning of the post you want to quote. At the end, do the same thing, but put a / before the word quote. :)

Now back on topic...



Sounds good! :)




Good points. :) I guess I was just looking at the eye shots like this...due to their sensitive nature, it doesnt take much to get some reaction. An eye lash, sand, etc., in the eye and it takes alot out of you. Going with that, IMO, it shouldn't take much to get a reaction.

Speaking for myself only, but I really don't look at any shot as a fight stopper. I like to use one shot to set up the next, and the next, and.... If I'm lucky enough to have the guy drop to the ground after a groin shot, great for me. :) But, I'm not banking on that. Even if the person moves, I still got a reaction. Hopefully, I can use that to my advantage and follow up with something else.

Just to stay off topic briefly... begin by using the "Quote" function or Go Advanced from the Quick Reply button. Then, depending on what you want to do, just delete the parts that you don't want in the post. If you look at the menu bar above the area where you're typing, you'll see something that looks like a comic strip's word balloon; clicking on that will give you a set of the quote][/quote marks (I omitted the leading and tailing bracket so it'll show) to either paste what you want to quote or (if you have text highlighted) wrap the quote controls around it.

[ares]

I think sparring is extremely valuable. Some people who are very confident with regular class exercises tend to freeze up when someone comes at them in a fighting situation. They forget what they are taught and try to counter. But you still can have control in sparring. One person I was sparring with came at me with a superman punch and I moved back. After I did, he said that he didn't expect me to do that since I'm usually more aggressive. The floor in our classroom is carpet and concrete. I told him that I moved back because I didn't want to hurt him and then went on to explain that I was going to move forward and take his legs out from under him while he was in the air. Landing on the floor might have injured him and that isn't nice. We always use head gear and try to protect ourselves at all times. I think that I would be better prepared to defend myself in a real situation because of sparring.

[sgtmac_46]

Anyone who DOESN'T us sparring as part of their training isn't training for the real world.

Boxers don't just hit the speed bag and do pad drills....they get in the ring and spar.

Football players have scrimmage games.

You can't practice for the real thing if you don't realistically simulate the real thing......training without sparring is like driver's ed without ever getting in the car and driving around town.

[sgtmac_46]

I agree with that, you can't really count on any one technique to end a fight. I watched the Jackson-Griffin fight on Saturday (killer fight BTW) and the commentator said that in a fight he had in Brazil, Griffin had a broken arm and refused to tap, continued fighting and won the fight with his good arm. Sometimes you gotta realize that you need to have contingencies set up in case your "knock out shot" doesn't.

Thanks for teaching me the trick. Yeah, decapitation is really one of the few '100%' reliable fight enders.

[Hyper_Shadow]

This is an awesome topic. Personally I am in full favour of sparring. As I see it it can't fully prepare you for the danger of live situations and I have enough live experience to appreciate that. But it is better than nothing. It means that I keep myself sharp enough to a be cut above the norm whenever necessary.
Also, I would point out that I'm personally not going to wait to be attacked by anybody. If I percieve a situation as being potentially dangerous to me I'm going to initiate the attack. My instructor used to say, 'Do to others as they would do to you; only do it first and ten times as bad.' Sparring can get you used to taking the initiative and throwing the first punch which is a fear I've seen in many highly skilled and competent martial artists. Whether they have reservations about using their techniques is unknown to me if they have then it touches on the previous post about what TMA's are for.
But I'm rambling and it's not productive. The point I'm making is that sparring, although nowhere close to actual combat, is better than not sparring at all. It allows you to become comfortable with certain amounts of adrenaline in your body from taking knocks and being put under a little physical danger. It gets you used to seeing through your opponents techniques and spotting the tiniest signals that you are going to be attacked. Mostly it gets you used to being on the offensive from the start.

[allenjp]

This is an awesome topic. Personally I am in full favour of sparring. As I see it it can't fully prepare you for the danger of live situations and I have enough live experience to appreciate that. But it is better than nothing. It means that I keep myself sharp enough to a be cut above the norm whenever necessary.
Also, I would point out that I'm personally not going to wait to be attacked by anybody. If I percieve a situation as being potentially dangerous to me I'm going to initiate the attack. My instructor used to say, 'Do to others as they would do to you; only do it first and ten times as bad.' Sparring can get you used to taking the initiative and throwing the first punch which is a fear I've seen in many highly skilled and competent martial artists. Whether they have reservations about using their techniques is unknown to me if they have then it touches on the previous post about what TMA's are for.
But I'm rambling and it's not productive. The point I'm making is that sparring, although nowhere close to actual combat, is better than not sparring at all. It allows you to become comfortable with certain amounts of adrenaline in your body from taking knocks and being put under a little physical danger. It gets you used to seeing through your opponents techniques and spotting the tiniest signals that you are going to be attacked. Mostly it gets you used to being on the offensive from the start.

The tiniest little signs of agression, and you attack, and ten times as bad as what you think they will do will be...no offense (wouldn't want to show you any agression) but you may want to read some of the threads that have to do with the legal ramifications of your actions in a physical confrontation.

Here's one: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64547

[allenjp]

Yeah, decapitation is really one of the few '100%' reliable fight enders.

or a .45 caliber sized hole in the opponents forehead...

[chinto]

Sure. I'll use my 80# recurve bow and a score of bodkins. Starting at 50 meters...

:rofl:


ahh bodkin arrows.... you got neighbors who wear milonese plate, or perhaps Gothic or Maximilian plate armor around?? you just have to love a good bodkin against mail or good plate armor! really gives them the point of the argument at a distance!! you have to use a good penetrating reasoning strategy with your arguments in such cases. you know, really loose your full arguments!! :knight2:
uh ohh i have to stop now! .. this punishment is going from bard to verse!!!!

ohh and he really should keep that shield up in position.. especially with a heater shield!

[sgtmac_46]

or a .45 caliber sized hole in the opponents forehead... Often.....though don't count on a bullet in the head to stop the fight.....especially from a lessor caliber.

Anecdotal true story:

I know a gentleman who's spent his life skirting the law.....we'll call him 'Dave'. He and another gentleman who used to be 'business' partners had a falling out.....we'll call the other man 'Ken'. Both of these men are the kind of rough men prone to violence that most folks really never meet.

At any rate some threats had been made back and forth and Dave, knowing Ken's unpredictable violent nature and mental instability took them very seriously. One day while Dave was at a mutual friends house, Ken shows up there. As an example of how violence in the REALLY REAL world begins, Ken walks in and sees Dave sitting at a kitchen table and walks over and in a pleasant manner says 'Hi'.

Dave, having decent instincts, already has his 9mm Ruger in his hand next to his right leg out of sight responds. 'Hi Ken'......and without missing a beat Ken raises a .22 caliber revolver and fires a shot point blank at Dave, striking him in the forehead. Dave falls backwards in his chair as Ken fires another shot, which passes through the edge of his left bicep.

Now, Dave doesn't know he's been shot in the forehead, but he does know he's being shot at. Dave rolls backwards and lifts his 9mm and he and Ken exchange multiple shots as Dave is running down the hallway.

Dave, being a decent shot, has managed to strike Ken 9 times, most of them in the upper torso, and put 9mm rounds in to Ken's liver and lungs and a couple of other organs. Dave reloads and Ken is laying on the floor. Dave walks back in with his now reloaded 9mm and Ken starts begging him to call an ambulance. Dave tells him he's not calling anything that Ken should just DIE! And Ken raises the .22 again, and Dave puts a couple more rounds in to him.

Now, Dave has been shot twice, once directly in the forehead and once in the shoulder. Dave does not know he's been shot, he thinks Ken hit him with the pistol and then shot AT him. He feels pain in his arm and realizes he's been shot there, but it's a grazing wound of no consequence. Ken dies on the floor in a pool of his own blood, having shot first what should have been a fatal shot.

Oh, by the way, as Dave was a known criminal, the local prosecutor charged Dave with 2nd Degree murder based on the notion that he went too far in coming back after escaping down the hallway and shooting Ken again (this is prior to the current Missouri incarnation of the enhanced castle doctrine). A jury took exactly 20 minutes to come back with a 'Not Guilty' verdict based on self-defense.




*All names have been changed to protect those involved. The case is several years old and already adjudicated. The above story comes from witness statements and the statements of 'Dave'......'Ken' could not be reached for comment.

[kidswarrior]

Often.....though don't count on a bullet in the head to stop the fight.....especially from a lessor caliber.

Anecdotal true story:

I know a gentleman who's spent his life skirting the law.....we'll call him 'Dave'. He and another gentleman who used to be 'business' partners had a falling out.....we'll call the other man 'Ken'. Both of these men are the kind of rough men prone to violence that most folks really never meet.

At any rate some threats had been made back and forth and Dave, knowing Ken's unpredictable violent nature and mental instability took them very seriously. One day while Dave was at a mutual friends house, Ken shows up there. As an example of how violence in the REALLY REAL world begins, Ken walks in and sees Dave sitting at a kitchen table and walks over and in a pleasant manner says 'Hi'.

Dave, having decent instincts, already has his 9mm Ruger in his hand next to his right leg out of sight responds. 'Hi Ken'......and without missing a beat Ken raises a .22 caliber revolver and fires a shot point blank at Dave, striking him in the forehead. Dave falls backwards in his chair as Ken fires another shot, which passes through the edge of his left bicep.

Now, Dave doesn't know he's been shot in the forehead, but he does know he's being shot at. Dave rolls backwards and lifts his 9mm and he and Ken exchange multiple shots as Dave is running down the hallway.

Dave, being a decent shot, has managed to strike Ken 9 times, most of them in the upper torso, and put 9mm rounds in to Ken's liver and lungs and a couple of other organs. Dave reloads and Ken is laying on the floor. Dave walks back in with his now reloaded 9mm and Ken starts begging him to call an ambulance. Dave tells him he's not calling anything that Ken should just DIE! And Ken raises the .22 again, and Dave puts a couple more rounds in to him.

Now, Dave has been shot twice, once directly in the forehead and once in the shoulder. Dave does not know he's been shot, he thinks Ken hit him with the pistol and then shot AT him. He feels pain in his arm and realizes he's been shot there, but it's a grazing wound of no consequence. Ken dies on the floor in a pool of his own blood, having shot first what should have been a fatal shot.

Oh, by the way, as Dave was a known criminal, the local prosecutor charged Dave with 2nd Degree murder based on the notion that he went too far in coming back after escaping down the hallway and shooting Ken again (this is prior to the current Missouri incarnation of the enhanced castle doctrine). A jury took exactly 20 minutes to come back with a 'Not Guilty' verdict based on self-defense.




*All names have been changed to protect those involved. The case is several years old and already adjudicated. The above story comes from witness statements and the statements of 'Dave'......'Ken' could not be reached for comment.The ring of truth. Love it.

[Empty Hands]

Often.....though don't count on a bullet in the head to stop the fight.....especially from a lessor caliber.

Indeed. This guy lived.
http://asapblogs.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/21/ripleys_believe_it_o_cart_2.jpg

[Andy Moynihan]

:eek::eek::eek:

Whiskey.....Tango.....FOXTROT!!!?!?!?!?!!!!!???

[Sukerkin]

Seconded, Andy. How on earth?

Is that genuine, EH? I mean, the hilts inside his head :faints:.

[Empty Hands]

:eek::eek::eek:

Whiskey.....Tango.....FOXTROT!!!?!?!?!?!!!!!???


Seconded, Andy. How on earth?

Is that genuine, EH? I mean, the hilts inside his head :faints:.

Oh yes my friends, entirely genuine. :D It was a completely random attack when this gentleman opened the door. He then walked down to a friend's house to get help. The knife was removed 4 hours later, and this fellow survived more or less intact. He has some memory problems, headaches, and his left hand is paralyzed, but that isn't bad considering. This was also the largest object ever removed from a human skull.

This sort of thing is more common than you think. Phineas Gage had a railroad spike blown right through his frontal lobe and survived. He is famous in psychological circles because that specific damage changed his personality in interesting ways. I also remember seeing the news of when a kid fell on a combine spike which completely pierced his skull from right between his eyes. He recovered completely.

[kidswarrior]

Oh yes my friends, entirely genuine. :D

This sort of thing is more common than you think. Phineas Gage had a railroad spike blown right through his frontal lobe and survived. He is famous in psychological circles because that specific damage changed his personality in interesting ways.Phineas Gage has always fascinated me. Quite a story, and what first got me thinking about the different functions to different parts of the brain. :)

Kinda puts a new light on one-step drills where we practice assuming a hard punch here will cause this reaction, eh??? ;)

[Empty Hands]

Kinda puts a new light on one-step drills where we practice assuming a hard punch here will cause this reaction, eh??? ;)

So if I punch in the forehead, I cause a loss of inhibitions and good behavior in my opponent, and if I punch him in the side of the head, I cause memory problems? Cool. :D

[shihansmurf]

So I've got about twenty great cookbooks in my kitchen. I own a set of absurdly expensive cookware, a complete set of hinkle knives, and a good selection of quality foodstuffs. I have watched countless hours of cooking shows. My father, a Chef by trade, spent years training me to cook. I've eaten meals that span the spectrum from gourmet to Mc Donalds.

Does this mean I'm a Chef?

Does it mean I can even make SpaghettiO's?

All the above means squat.

I'm a good cook because I've actually cooked thousands of meals. Some turned out well, others not so well.

I've had 24 years in the dojo.....

Mark

[sgtmac_46]

Indeed. This guy lived.
http://asapblogs.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/21/ripleys_believe_it_o_cart_2.jpg EXCEDERINE HEADACHE #25!!!! :eek:

[Steve]

Well, as I'm new around here I'm not sure how many times these threads have been wrung through.

In my opinion, the crux of this situation has to do with a personal belief regarding how one learns. Personally, I think that sparring is critical to internalizing technique. I won't bother to go into why, as I'm sure you guys have heard it all a million times. What I'm not sure about, having read this thread, is that it's not an either/or situation. In BJJ, we drill a lot. I work on flow drills, solo drills at home, partner drills during open mat. We work positional drills where there is a specific goal, and we work compliant drills where the intent is to learn details. I'd say that fully 1/2 of each class is spent working through drills. We drill in warm-ups as we roll, hip escape, or sit through up and down the mat. We then drill technique. Forgive me if I'm telling you guys something you already know. It just sounds like there are a lot of people who just don't understand that even in an "alive" style such as BJJ, drills are understood to be critical.

Understanding this, I'm baffled when someone would suggest that we stop with drills and not take the next logical step, which is to incorporate increasing degrees of spontaneous and random resistance up to and including sparring. Taking this one step further, I think it's critical to get someone sparring ASAP. I agree with John Will 100% when he asserts that people don't learn something 100% BEFORE they do it (http://bjj-australia.blogspot.com/2008/07/walking-tightrope.html); they only learn it AFTER they've done it. In other words, the details only follow context. Without context, in this case in the form of sparring, the details are largely unaccessible.

[allenjp]

Well, as I'm new around here I'm not sure how many times these threads have been wrung through.

In my opinion, the crux of this situation has to do with a personal belief regarding how one learns. Personally, I think that sparring is critical to internalizing technique. I won't bother to go into why, as I'm sure you guys have heard it all a million times. What I'm not sure about, having read this thread, is that it's not an either/or situation. In BJJ, we drill a lot. I work on flow drills, solo drills at home, partner drills during open mat. We work positional drills where there is a specific goal, and we work compliant drills where the intent is to learn details. I'd say that fully 1/2 of each class is spent working through drills. We drill in warm-ups as we roll, hip escape, or sit through up and down the mat. We then drill technique. Forgive me if I'm telling you guys something you already know. It just sounds like there are a lot of people who just don't understand that even in an "alive" style such as BJJ, drills are understood to be critical.

Understanding this, I'm baffled when someone would suggest that we stop with drills and not take the next logical step, which is to incorporate increasing degrees of spontaneous and random resistance up to and including sparring. Taking this one step further, I think it's critical to get someone sparring ASAP. I agree with John Will 100% when he asserts that people don't learn something 100% BEFORE they do it (http://bjj-australia.blogspot.com/2008/07/walking-tightrope.html); they only learn it AFTER they've done it. In other words, the details only follow context. Without context, in this case in the form of sparring, the details are largely unaccessible.

So you want someone to strike your throat or gouge your eyes while sparring?

I will say once AGAIN for those that seem to not understand this for some reason:

I don't think sparring is bad. I think it is a good thing. I just don't think that certain styles or techniques should be discounted as completely ineffective because they are not practiced full force in sparring against a completely resistant partner.

[Andrew Green]

So you want someone to strike your throat or gouge your eyes while sparring?


If those things are important to your training where appropriate safety equipment, use appropriate levels of contact and go for it. Safety goggles and throat guards aren't terribly hard to find.

[allenjp]

If those things are important to your training where appropriate safety equipment, use appropriate levels of contact and go for it. Safety goggles and throat guards aren't terribly hard to find.

Then how will I know how effective these techniques would have been on my opponent in a real fight, when I jab my sparring partner's goggles, and he laughs and says "you didn't really get my eyes"?

Kind of reminds me of when my kids play good guy-bad guy, and when one points his toy gun at the other one and says "bang! I got you" and the other one says "no, because I have a super invinceable forcefield".

What about bone breaking techniques? There is no guard to protect against those. Are we to assume they are useless in a real fight then?

We may have to agree to disagree here, which is fine, but IMHO lethal and debilitating techniques simply cannot be sparred with effectively. But that doesn't mean they are useless.

[Sukerkin]

I concur with your conclusion, allenjp. As has been said several times before in this thread alone, sparring is 'play' fighting - it has to be for safeties sake.

It is a useful adjunct to kata (or vice versa, depending on how you want to look at it) but it is not preparation for that time when it is for real.

I can't claim the large experience that some of our fellows here can (thank goodness) but I have had to make use of what I have trained 'out in the wilds' and that included breaking techniques that were drilled in kata and play-acted in sparring.

I keep banging on about it, for which I apologise to those who are fed up of hearing it but training without visualisation, without bunkai and without feeling is the only training that is a waste of time.

[sgtmac_46]

So you want someone to strike your throat or gouge your eyes while sparring?

I will say once AGAIN for those that seem to not understand this for some reason:

I don't think sparring is bad. I think it is a good thing. I just don't think that certain styles or techniques should be discounted as completely ineffective because they are not practiced full force in sparring against a completely resistant partner. I agree based on the fact that some techniques are difficult to spar, such as eye-gouges.....but lets assume that there was some room like on Star Trek TNG where holograms take on real form. Imagine you could go in that room and practice ALL of your skills, even the lethal ones, against realistic human being proxies....you could stab them, break their bones, gouge their eyes, all realistic with no real injuries to any real human beings.

THAT kind of training would be the most effective training available....short of that we have sparring.


Then how will I know how effective these techniques would have been on my opponent in a real fight, when I jab my sparring partner's goggles, and he laughs and says "you didn't really get my eyes"?

Kind of reminds me of when my kids play good guy-bad guy, and when one points his toy gun at the other one and says "bang! I got you" and the other one says "no, because I have a super invinceable forcefield".

What about bone breaking techniques? There is no guard to protect against those. Are we to assume they are useless in a real fight then?

We may have to agree to disagree here, which is fine, but IMHO lethal and debilitating techniques simply cannot be sparred with effectively. But that doesn't mean they are useless. As noted before, it isn't that sparring isn't the MOST effective training method......but that some effective techniques don't lend themselves to non-injury sparring. Are many of those techniques 'effective'? Absolutely....and they would be even MORE effective if you could spar using them.

[Sukerkin]

I am sorry that I trully do not agree that sparring is the most effective training method, Mac. It inculcates as many bad habits in it's way that non-visualised kata do. Combine the two (sparring and real kata) and we have about the best we can do. Not perfect but good enough.

However, a Holodeck would be a glorious step forward in martial arts training, especially for those of us whose art of choice involves the use of three foot razor blades :D.

[Steve]

So you want someone to strike your throat or gouge your eyes while sparring?

I will say once AGAIN for those that seem to not understand this for some reason:

I don't think sparring is bad. I think it is a good thing. I just don't think that certain styles or techniques should be discounted as completely ineffective because they are not practiced full force in sparring against a completely resistant partner.I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone denying that a poke to the eye, a fish hook or a strike to the throat is effective. I think that sparring is the best way to develop the timing and technique necessary to hit a moving, unpredictable, resisting target where you want to. Said another way, if you don't spar, I don't believe your chances of hitting what you aim for when you need to are very good. Does that makes sense?

I agree with sgtmac_46 when he says that some techniques are more difficult to spar effectively. There are programs that do incorporate sparring with weapons and such.

Once again, I'm not suggesting that sparring is the only way to train. My point was simply to suggest that even in "alive" arts like BJJ, we do a heck of a lot of drills. We also do a lot of sparring. While I read many people saying that in their traditional style they do kata and spar, I got the impression that people believe that in BJJ we are taught a technique and then just... I don't know, fight until class is over.

The title of the thread is "Sparring: More Harm Than Good?" My belief is that sparring is one integral part of training. No more or less. Kata... well, I notice that some people have made a point of saying "non-visualized kata." I'm not sure if that's to distinguish kata from the many training drills I mentioned, or if there's some other specific reason for it. Regardless, slowing things down and working the techniques in various ways and to varying degrees of resistance are also important.

Allen, did you happen to read John Will's article? I appreciated his point of view. You don't wait until a child has perfected the art of throwing a football before you allow him to play in a game. It's only when he's in the game, developing context, that he can begin to understand the details.

[jks9199]

Any form of practice must have some inherent flaws in comparison with the real deal, unless you're going to walk down the street and pick fights and call it practice. (If you do, I suspect you'll quickly be given more opportunities to practice in a much more confining setting, if you know what I mean...)

Free sparring is a means of practicing the techniques against a partner who isn't playing by a script -- but is agreeing not to kill or maim you. You can vary the level of contact from barely-touching tag to near-full, but the truth is that you're not going to work at full force with your sparring partner. You just won't have many partners for long... You can armor up, and hit each other harder -- but you still have to restrict the targets. And the simple fact that you ARE NOT fighting for your life remains.

Now, you can pound a punching bag or makiwara as hard as your limbs can stand (or harder...) if you want -- but it's movement is going to be pretty limited, and it won't really hit back. You can do drills with focus mitts where the holder wallops you if you don't get out fast enough, or leave an opening... but that's not quite the same as fighting, is it?

The trick in training is to be aware of the necessary flaws, and work with various methods to balance them. I can't hit my training partner full force -- but I can hit the bag. Later, I can work with my training partner to avoid/counter, etc.

[shihansmurf]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone denying that a poke to the eye, a fish hook or a strike to the throat is effective. I think that sparring is the best way to develop the timing and technique necessary to hit a moving, unpredictable, resisting target where you want to. Said another way, if you don't spar, I don't believe your chances of hitting what you aim for when you need to are very good. Does that makes sense?

Makes perfect sense. Simply put, if you can't hit me in the face with your fist when I'm trying to stop you then you ain't gonna land an eye gouge either. If I train in an alive manner against a resisting opponent then I am at a tremendous advantage against any adversary that doesn't. Nothing prevents me from eye gouging or throat ripping, or kicking low, in fact I am better at it than someone that doesn't pressure test their skill set.

All that being said I think that kata is an invaluable training aid.It helps us improve our attributes, perfect proper form, gives us a bit of cardio(at least until we have it internalized enough that the movement becomes non-taxing), and is a good way to shadow box in an organized manner. Make no mistake, however, it is preparation for the big game.

Just my view
Mark

[tshadowchaser]

From the title of the thread I will simply say that sparring has its good and bad points.
What good comes from it will be determined by the rules you spar under and the quality of your opponent and the instructor who watches then breaks down what you did correctly and incorrectly. Positive criticism of the performance of those sparring will help them improve.
The bad points are that it is not a real fight and may lead you to develop habits that could cause harm to you in the street.