So what is the origin of TKD

[Xue Sheng]

After reading much about Tae Kwon Do here on MT and realizing even though I at one time did train TKD I know little about its actual origin. I do realize much has been discussed here but I recently went to my old teachers Web page and found his



Taekwon-do is an art of self-defense whose techniques come largely from the ancient Korean martial art of Taek-kyon, the origins of which date back about 1,300 years. The system of Taekwon-do in its present form was formally introduced in 1955.

That led me to here

Taekkyeon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekkyeon

Taekkyon History - Turtlepress
http://www.turtlepress.com/info_taekkyon_history.asp

Is TKD a descendant of Teakkyeon?

[FearlessFreep]

Is there an emoticon for "oh, lordy, here we go again" ??

[Xue Sheng]

Is there an emoticon for "oh, lordy, here we go again" ??

Oh man the very first time I start a post in the TKD section and now you tell me I'm starting trouble.

Sorry it was not my intension it was a serious question. To any moderator if this is a problem thread please delete it.

Thanks
XS
:asian:

[igillman]

Asking about the history of TKD is like asking which religion our political party is right. There are many different variations and themes, all of the believers in each variation "know" they are right and will prove it with lots of stories, anecdotes and mythology.

Almost all of the factions say that Japanese Karate had an influence on TKD. How much of an influence, when, why how and other questions will lead you deeper into the swamp. Eventually you will sink into a quicksand of "he said, she said" statements.

Stay away from discussing the history of TKD. You will have more success teaching a pig to fly (given enough thrust it can) than you will finding the one true path through history.

[FearlessFreep]

N/P XS but the issue of the origin of TKD, especially in relationship to Taekyon , and a few related subjects seems to be coming up almost once every few weeks (and often intrudes on other threads as well) :)

and as mentioned above..it's a rather... contentious issue

[exile]

Best thing, XS, is just to look over some of the more representative recent threads to get a sense of what's at issue. Will be back with a link or two shortly. Those of us who were in these debates are pretty tired (and tired of them)—the (soon to be identified) following will give you an idea why.

OK, check out these three, for starters:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32145
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59861
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3898

Read 'em in excruciating detail and you'll see what FF and I are getting at!

[terryl965]

Have we not beaten this poor dead horse enough, man it just cannot be let go of. Let see if I can get everything down in also in order for everyone.

Korea itself was and is a small country, before TKD there was none, TKD became so great mainly because of a few pioneers that brought life into a New Art just to name a few http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif ME and ME http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif again if was not for me there would be no TKD plain and simple. I hope this can shed some light on the history and ego of ME. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif:bow::bow::bow:

[FearlessFreep]

Methinks Terry speaks Texan with a Korean accent....

[terryl965]

Methinks Terry speaks Texan with a Korean accent....

Yes I do

[tkd1964]

Have we not beaten this poor dead horse enough, man it just cannot be let go of. Let see if I can get everything down in also in order for everyone.

Korea itself was and is a small country, before TKD there was none, TKD became so great mainly because of a few pioneers that brought life into a New Art just to name a few http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif ME and ME http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif again if was not for me there would be no TKD plain and simple. I hope this can shed some light on the history and ego of ME. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif:bow::bow::bow:

I find this very fasinating. Is Me his first name and was he from China. I heard of Me Du Won but wasn't sure if this was the same Me.

Mike

[terryl965]

I find this very fasinating. Is Me his first name and was he from China. I heard of Me Du Won but wasn't sure if this was the same Me.

Mike

No not the same me this me is ME So Dumb, it is one of the very early kwon which dates back to India and there ancient art of fighting. By the way the book is comming out and I have all ready sold the movie rights for a nickel.

[jim777]

It's such a big event that Coca-Cola AND Pepsi are co-sponsoring the official "2008 TKD History Free SummerFest!!"

So grab a Coke or a Pepsi, and discuss anything but TKD History all Summer! :lol:

j/k ;)

[Xue Sheng]

And I thought CMA lineage was an rough issue...sheeesh :D

My bad sorry...

Mods, feel free to remove this thread from the face of the earth

[bluekey88]

Well, I for one, think coca-cola is the superior soft drink and when you drink it it gives you the "Real TKD."

....sorry, couldn't resist :)


It's such a big event that Coca-Cola AND Pepsi are co-sponsoring the official "2008 TKD History Free SummerFest!!"

So grab a Coke or a Pepsi, and discuss anything but TKD History all Summer! :lol:

j/k ;)

[terryl965]

And I thought CMA lineage was an rough issue...sheeesh :D

My bad sorry...

Mods, feel free to remove this thread from the face of the earth

Xue sorry I was just playing around but for a serious decussion I will do by PM so it does not get heated.

[Tames D]

Well, I for one, think coca-cola is the superior soft drink and when you drink it it gives you the "Real TKD."

....sorry, couldn't resist :)
But do you know the true history of Coca-Cola?http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Twin Fist]

can open.......................worms everywhere





After reading much about Tae Kwon Do here on MT and realizing even though I at one time did train TKD I know little about its actual origin. I do realize much has been discussed here but I recently went to my old teachers Web page and found his



That led me to here

Taekkyeon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekkyeon

Taekkyon History - Turtlepress
http://www.turtlepress.com/info_taekkyon_history.asp

Is TKD a descendant of Teakkyeon?

[Xue Sheng]

Xue sorry I was just playing around but for a serious decussion I will do by PM so it does not get heated.

Thanks


And don't EVER let me catch ANY of you in the CMA forum asking lineage questions :ticked: :uhyeah: :D

Just kidding

I was not aware that this was such a touchy topic, if I had been aware of this I would not have made this post at all and gone about looking into it via other means.

Like I have said before when I did train TKD I really did not care about its history or any MA history for that matter. Hell I was young and could actually train as much as I wanted to then.... without many additional responsibilities…. Oh and not much pain then either…. So that is what I did… train.

Sorry about posting the potentially inflammatory post :asian:

Next on the agenda is an MMA vs. TMA post followed by a post about the origin of Taijiquan which I am convinced was started by some Taoist guy named Walter that lived on the lower east side of Harbin. :D

[FearlessFreep]

Like I have said before when I did train TKD I really did not care about its history or any MA history for that matter. Hell I was young and could actually train as much as I wanted to then.... without many additional responsibilities….


I still don't actually :) Like I've alluded before "if it helps me punch harder, I'm all for it... if not.. then it's an idle curiosity but I don't take it too seriously", but that's just because of where my focus lies. Others have different interests

[newGuy12]

Thanks


And don't EVER let me catch ANY of you in the CMA forum asking lineage questions :ticked: :uhyeah: :D

Just kidding

I was not aware that this was such a touchy topic, if I had been aware of this I would not have made this post at all and gone about looking into it via other means.

Like I have said before when I did train TKD I really did not care about its history or any MA history for that matter. Hell I was young and could actually train as much as I wanted to then.... without many additional responsibilities…. Oh and not much pain then either…. So that is what I did… train.

Sorry about posting the potentially inflammatory post :asian:

Next on the agenda is an MMA vs. TMA post followed by a post about the origin of Taijiquan which I am convinced was started by some Taoist guy named Walter that lived on the lower east side of Harbin. :D

Mr. Xue Sheng, you are the best.
I think this issue is the most contentious issue of all the martial arts. I will not engage in any arguments. I would rather talk about politics, for as much good as it does. The same people line up on each side, each time, and then...

SIJAK!!!

The same thing, over and over. I am also very accepting of these TKD discussions, I am not one to become upset by them. I know who gave this TKD to me. I know who my GM was. That is the important part!!!

OH -- this tooth extraction -- it is something to keep me from practice -- I wish to ensure that the gum will heal nicely without the dry socket. So, no dojang and no gymnasium for a few days -- this is not good!

[jim777]

Thanks


And don't EVER let me catch ANY of you in the CMA forum asking lineage questions :ticked: :uhyeah: :D

Just kidding



I think it's a tribute to you that this is the only recent memory TKD history thread without any blood letting in it :D

[Xue Sheng]

I still don't actually :) Like I've alluded before "if it helps me punch harder, I'm all for it... if not.. then it's an idle curiosity but I don't take it too seriously", but that's just because of where my focus lies. Others have different interests

I was like that too... when I was closer to 30 than 50 and single :D

[Daniel Sullivan]

Personally, I'm happy with the modern history of Taekwondo. Trying to link it to subok or taekyeon is beyond the scope of my studies at this point in time.

Intersting topic.

Daniel

[jim777]

Historically speaking, what I'd really like to know is if frankfurters really come from Frankfurt, and if hamburgers really come from Hamburg. No one ever touches that subject, so there must be a reason. Just sayin'

:lol:

[terryl965]

Historically speaking, what I'd really like to know is if frankfurters really come from Frankfurt, and if hamburgers really come from Hamburg. No one ever touches that subject, so there must be a reason. Just sayin'

:lol:

why is Italy credited for the pizza when it came from china, that one is mind blowing.:erg:

[FearlessFreep]

why is Italy credited for the pizza when it came from china, that one is mind blowing.:erg:

Well I know it has something to do with Japanese Occupation in WWiII...it always comes back to that


Although I don't know if that's the occupation of China...or Italy

[jim777]

I thought the Japanese occupation of Italy was what brought us spaghetti? If it's really pizza, then I slept through more classes than I thought :lol: I guess it also plays a role in the origin of Sake, which is just bad Japanese Pinot Grigio :lol:

[newGuy12]

I think it's a tribute to you that this is the only recent memory TKD history thread without any blood letting in it :D

YET

[newGuy12]

Yes, as an aside, I will say this -- there is ONE place in my city where you can get a RIGHTEOUS pizza pie! I mean a pizza that will turn your head! Me and my weightlifting buddy are going to go there again someday and put one away! Oh, you people have made me hungry now!

[Xue Sheng]

Historically speaking, what I'd really like to know is if frankfurters really come from Frankfurt, and if hamburgers really come from Hamburg. No one ever touches that subject, so there must be a reason. Just sayin'

:lol:

And they jumped on me for asking about TKD history.

Damn it man are you INTENTIONALLY trying to start a war :D

Hot Dog History (http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/HotDog/HDIndex.htm)

Hamburger History (http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/HamburgerHistory.htm)

[Xue Sheng]

The Japanese occupied Italy :confused: :confused: :confused:

[FearlessFreep]

The Japanese occupied Italy :confused: :confused: :confused:

200 years from now, archeologist will be reviewing these computer records and arguing that very point...

[Xue Sheng]

200 years from now, archeologist will be reviewing these computer records and arguing that very point...

DAMN!!! I did it again.. started a flame post without even trying... and 200 years form now no less :uhyeah:

OK I'm off to start my MMA vs TMA post now followed by my "If you don't train Sanshou your a wimp" thread :D

[jim777]

The Japanese occupied Italy :confused: :confused: :confused:

Yes, it was in the middle of the end of the opening third of WW 1 5/16th. I'm pretty sure it was in all the papers...

:lol:

[Windsinger]

Yes, it was in the middle of the end of the opening third of WW 1 5/16th. I'm pretty sure it was in all the papers...

:lol:
:idunno:
I thought it was during the Euro-Asia Wars (aka the 76 Second Nightmare).
;)

[Xue Sheng]

Yes, it was in the middle of the end of the opening third of WW 1 5/16th. I'm pretty sure it was in all the papers...

:lol:


ahh that explains it... I know so little about WW 1 5/16th :)

[FearlessFreep]

ahh that explains it... I know so little about WW 1 5/16th :)

That's because you forgot to convert to metric

[Xue Sheng]

That's because you forgot to convert to metric

:rofl:

[terryl965]

Ok back to something useful, did the korean design TKD or did TKD design the Koreans?

[Xue Sheng]

Ok back to something useful, did the korean design TKD or did TKD design the Koreans?

Now that is an interesting question but I imagine you would have to know a lot about Korean culture prior to the appearance of TKD and Korean Culture after. And I know very little about Korean culture

[tkd1964]

I think a good question is, Is the Taekkyon of today the way it was practiced years ago? We know that Lee Yong Bok started to learn Taekkyon in 1984 under Song Duk Ki and Shin Han Sung. Both these men died in 1987 and on top of that Master Song was 94 when he died. So Mr. Lee only learned for three years from a 90 year old man a complete art. Either it is a simple art or other things were added to enhance it.

[rmclain]

I think a good question is, Is the Taekkyon of today the way it was practiced years ago? We know that Lee Yong Bok started to learn Taekkyon in 1984 under Song Duk Ki and Shin Han Sung. Both these men died in 1987 and on top of that Master Song was 94 when he died. So Mr. Lee only learned for three years from a 90 year old man a complete art. Either it is a simple art or other things were added to enhance it.

Things were added and made up to make the Taekyun of today. Mr. Song admitted in the early 1960's that he didn't remember much. He was rather unknown or valued until around 1983 or 84. Most of the Taekyun Masters in Korea today never met him. Perhaps Shin Han Sung knew more Taekyun that Mr. Song - I don't know anything about him (Shin Han Sung) or his background.

R. McLain

[YoungMan]

I look at it like this: Taekwondo is rather like a continuoum, with one end being a mirror image of Japanese karate, and the other end being totally Korean.
In the beginning, Taekwondo was very much like karate, although different schools were more or less. For example, Jidokwan and Songmookwan were very much like karate because that's what their founders studied. I think Chungdokwan was not quite so much because Lee's background was a little different. The Chungdokwan videos on Youtube, to me, show techniques and methods of execution different from pure karate, such as jumping side kick breaks and high roundhouse kicks to the head during one step, especially showing longer pivoting kicks.
However, as Taekwondo progressed, the continuoum swung the other way toward a purer Korean style and incorporated more native Korean techniques, including Taekkyon, which is where we are today. This is most notable in the circular, sweeping, and jumping kicks. I don't see those kicks in karate. Somehow, Koreans rediscovered them and reintroduced them to Taekwondo.

[terryl965]

I look at it like this: Taekwondo is rather like a continuoum, with one end being a mirror image of Japanese karate, and the other end being totally Korean.
In the beginning, Taekwondo was very much like karate, although different schools were more or less. For example, Jidokwan and Songmookwan were very much like karate because that's what their founders studied. I think Chungdokwan was not quite so much because Lee's background was a little different. The Chungdokwan videos on Youtube, to me, show techniques and methods of execution different from pure karate, such as jumping side kick breaks and high roundhouse kicks to the head during one step, especially showing longer pivoting kicks.
However, as Taekwondo progressed, the continuoum swung the other way toward a purer Korean style and incorporated more native Korean techniques, including Taekkyon, which is where we are today. This is most notable in the circular, sweeping, and jumping kicks. I don't see those kicks in karate. Somehow, Koreans rediscovered them and reintroduced them to Taekwondo.

Excellent point Youngman, over the last twenty years TKD has made great stride to get away from th eKarate influence and try to develope there own since of TKD. But we also must embrace the past for the future to grow.

[rmclain]

I look at it like this: Taekwondo is rather like a continuoum, with one end being a mirror image of Japanese karate, and the other end being totally Korean.
In the beginning, Taekwondo was very much like karate, although different schools were more or less. For example, Jidokwan and Songmookwan were very much like karate because that's what their founders studied. I think Chungdokwan was not quite so much because Lee's background was a little different. The Chungdokwan videos on Youtube, to me, show techniques and methods of execution different from pure karate, such as jumping side kick breaks and high roundhouse kicks to the head during one step, especially showing longer pivoting kicks.
However, as Taekwondo progressed, the continuoum swung the other way toward a purer Korean style and incorporated more native Korean techniques, including Taekkyon, which is where we are today. This is most notable in the circular, sweeping, and jumping kicks. I don't see those kicks in karate. Somehow, Koreans rediscovered them and reintroduced them to Taekwondo.

Grandmaster Kim mentioned that they only had a few basic kicks when he was training in the early 1950's (front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick & flying side kick, front-running kick, inside cresent kick, etc.).

He said that alot of people started experimenting with new ways to kick. One of his friends at the Changmoo-kwan (I forget his name) got known for doing a "new kick" - the jump spin back kick. Grandmaster Kim says none of his friends at the other kwan were doing it yet and he never saw anyone doing it until this time. Then, many people started imitating it from the school and other schools. Whether, this kick was "new" is unknown to me - more likely new to these students - yet present in other arts around the world.

Grandmaster Han Jae-ji, Hapkido, talks about his days of hanging a sock of dried peas from the ceiling of his house and coming up with the spinning wheel kick, - where you touch the floor with your opposite hand when the kick spins around. He told me that story two times in person. Also, the flying version of this kick. Seems this kick was unique to Hapkido circles for a while.

R. McLain

[exile]

I think it's also important to bear very much in mind the exposure some of the early TKD pioneers had to Chinese styles, particularly those in the northern part of the country neighboring Korea. Long Fist Changquan, for example, which was known to at least the Korean military for several hundred years (it appears to be the core technique set outlined in the Muye Dobo Tong Ji's single chapter on unarmed combat) has been described (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changquan) as follows:


The Long Fist style is considered to contain a good balance of hand and foot techniques, but in particular it is renowned for its impressive acrobatic kicks. Of contemporary wǔshù events, Long Fist techniques are most popular and memorable with its whirling, running, leaping, and acrobatics. Chanquan moves are difficult to perform, requiring great flexibility and athleticism comparable to gymnasts.

Long Fist’s arsenal of kicks covers everything from a basic front toe-kick to a jumping back-kick, from a low sweep to a tornado-kick. Specifically, typical moves in modern Changquan include: xuanfengjiao (旋风脚; "whirlwind kick"), xuanzi (旋子; "butterfly jump"), cekongfan (侧空翻; "side somersault"), and tengkongfeijiao (腾空飞脚; "flying jump kick").

Something that's important to bear in mind when investigating historical origins is just how far and wide objects and ideas can diffuse. My favorite example is Ireland in the Dark Ages—nominally one of the most isolated periods in European history, when roads were barely maintained, economies were almost purely local, infrastructure was a mess, and feudalism was just beginning to get started. Near-chaos. But analysis of the blue dyes in the reknowned early-9th c. Book of Kells, maybe the greatest illuminated mansuscript of all time, created on the tiny little rock/island of Iona, reveals that these dyes were made from ground lapis lazuli, which was available at that time only from Persia. Thousands and thousands of miles of dangerous passage were somehow successfully negotiated—on a regular basis, apparently—to supply the scriptorium in maybe the westernmost place in Europe with necessary supplies. And there are many similar well-documented cases, showing how much contact even distant human groups maintain with each other, even during the worst of times.

Given this pattern (the Silk Route is another brilliant illustration of the same thing), it's very difficult to completely isolate and localize the source of particular cultural elements—including literature, music, graphic arts, building styles and methods... and fighting techniques. It's a pretty safe bet that stuff in all of these categories circulated widely, and given the long-documented impact of imperial Chinese culture on its neighbors, it's not surprising that so many of them have a good deal in common with the expanding Han empire, even if they inevitably supply their own twist to it...

[GlassJaw]

I was not aware that this was such a touchy topic,


A matter of national pride. Kinda like when a few years (only much more intense) when the US was upset at France for not jumping on the "Coalition of the Willing" bandwagon and Congress responded by renaming their commissary's French Fries as "Freedom Fries".

In order to legitimize TKD as a distinctly Korean art, promoters have traditionally clung onto a connection, however tenuous, between TKD and an arguably native martial art. The claim is not just for the purposes of promoting TKD to the world, but also in order to get the Koreans themselves, who are often wary of identifiably foreign influences on their culture, to accept it as their own.

Unfortunately, while such a connection may be referenced in early TKD writing, the extent of its contribution (or even the connection's existence) cannot be clearly demonstrated. Nor can it be clearly disproven. Thus, it has become a matter of personal belief.

"My master told me X, so that's the way it really happened."

Internationally, most of us have little personal investment in the issue, being so far removed from it.

Dan

[GlassJaw]

For example, Jidokwan and Songmookwan were very much like karate because that's what their founders studied. I think Chungdokwan was not quite so much because Lee's background was a little different.

From what I've read of Great Grandmaster Lee Won Kuk, he opened his original Blue Wave Gym to teach karate after having been a student of Shotokan directly under Funakoshi O-Sensei.

The sign on his dojang in Seoul was the same as the sign on his teacher's dojo in Tokyo advertising his art as "Chinese boxing". The Chinese calligraphy on the sign would be pronounced "tang soo do" (or "kong soo do") by Koreans and "karate" by Japanese.

I don't believe he ever claimed in those early days that what he was teaching was anything other than his version of Shotokan karate (especially since his gym was recognized by Shotokan's main dojo).

I have read that the name of his gym "Chung Do Kwan", was based on "sung do kwan" (the Korean transliteration of "Shotokan"), but modified because it would have been perhaps presumptuous to use the exact same name that Gichen "Shoto" Funakoshi uses for his own schools.


Dan

[exile]

From what I've read of Great Grandmaster Lee Won Kuk, he opened his original Blue Wave Gym to teach karate after having been a student of Shotokan directly under Funakoshi O-Sensei.

The sign on his dojang in Seoul was the same as the sign on his teacher's dojo in Tokyo advertising his art as "Chinese boxing". The Chinese calligraphy on the sign would be pronounced "tang soo do" (or "kong soo do") by Koreans and "karate" by Japanese.

I don't believe he ever claimed in those early days that what he was teaching was anything other than his version of Shotokan karate (especially since his gym was recognized by Shotokan's main dojo).

I have read that the name of his gym "Chung Do Kwan", was based on "sung do kwan" (the Korean transliteration of "Shotokan"), but modified because it would have been perhaps presumptuous to use the exact same name that Gichen "Shoto" Funakoshi uses for his own schools.


Dan

Very interesting, GJ. Our own Kwan name, Song Moo Kwan ('Pine Tree Martial [training] Hall/School') is based very closely on Shotokan ('Waving Pines House'); Byung Jik Ro, the Founder, always emphasized his connection to Funakoshi, even in his latter years as a high-ranked technical consultant to the WTF.

[Xue Sheng]

I think it's also important to bear very much in mind the exposure some of the early TKD pioneers had to Chinese styles, particularly those in the northern part of the country neighboring Korea. Long Fist Changquan, for example, which was known to at least the Korean military for several hundred years (it appears to be the core technique set outlined in the Muye Dobo Tong Ji's single chapter on unarmed combat) has been described (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changquan) as follows:



The Long Fist style is considered to contain a good balance of hand and foot techniques, but in particular it is renowned for its impressive acrobatic kicks. Of contemporary wǔshù events, Long Fist techniques are most popular and memorable with its whirling, running, leaping, and acrobatics. Chanquan moves are difficult to perform, requiring great flexibility and athleticism comparable to gymnasts.



Long Fist’s arsenal of kicks covers everything from a basic front toe-kick to a jumping back-kick, from a low sweep to a tornado-kick. Specifically, typical moves in modern Changquan include: xuanfengjiao (旋风脚; "whirlwind kick"), xuanzi (旋子; "butterfly jump"), cekongfan (侧空翻; "side somersault"), and tengkongfeijiao (腾空飞脚; "flying jump kick").

Something that's important to bear in mind when investigating historical origins is just how far and wide objects and ideas can diffuse. My favorite example is Ireland in the Dark Ages—nominally one of the most isolated periods in European history, when roads were barely maintained, economies were almost purely local, infrastructure was a mess, and feudalism was just beginning to get started. Near-chaos. But analysis of the blue dyes in the reknowned early-9th c. Book of Kells, maybe the greatest illuminated mansuscript of all time, created on the tiny little rock/island of Iona, reveals that these dyes were made from ground lapis lazuli, which was available at that time only from Persia. Thousands and thousands of miles of dangerous passage were somehow successfully negotiated—on a regular basis, apparently—to supply the scriptorium in maybe the westernmost place in Europe with necessary supplies. And there are many similar well-documented cases, showing how much contact even distant human groups maintain with each other, even during the worst of times.

Given this pattern (the Silk Route is another brilliant illustration of the same thing), it's very difficult to completely isolate and localize the source of particular cultural elements—including literature, music, graphic arts, building styles and methods... and fighting techniques. It's a pretty safe bet that stuff in all of these categories circulated widely, and given the long-documented impact of imperial Chinese culture on its neighbors, it's not surprising that so many of them have a good deal in common with the expanding Han empire, even if they inevitably supply their own twist to it...

I do not doubt anything you are saying here but I just wanted to clarify the Long Fist that most see these days is Wushu competition based and the long fist that inspired it, although rather high kicking and acrobatic, is not exactly the same.

[exile]

I do not doubt anything you are saying here but I just wanted to clarify the Long Fist that most see these days is Wushu competition based and the long fist that inspired it, although rather high kicking and acrobatic, is not exactly the same.

Right, and thanks for emphasizing that point, XS.

[terryl965]

Very interesting, GJ. Our own Kwan name, Song Moo Kwan ('Pine Tree Martial [training] Hall/School') is based very closely on Shotokan ('Waving Pines House'); Byung Jik Ro, the Founder, always emphasized his connection to Funakoshi, even in his latter years as a high-ranked technical consultant to the WTF.

This is true and alot of people just do not or want to believe this, why I have no ideal but let me ask you this then. If Karate was the main stage for Tae Kwon Do wqhat happen in those later year that seem to have change like the wind. Why change what has always been a tribute to those GM of the past? Why not keep the roots of the Karate based and then just expand on everything else?

[exile]

This is true and alot of people just do not or want to believe this, why I have no ideal but let me ask you this then. If Karate was the main stage for Tae Kwon Do wqhat happen in those later year that seem to have change like the wind. Why change what has always been a tribute to those GM of the past? Why not keep the roots of the Karate based and then just expand on everything else?

I think it comes down to this, Terry: an honest acknowledgement of your life and work requires, first of all, self-confidence and self-assurance, whether we're talking about individuals or whole societies. And those traits have been in pretty short supply for much of recent Korean history, given their bitter experience of colonial occupation going back to the late 19th century. Admitting that you owe major debts to a hated enemy for what is now one of the jewels in your cultural crown—as TKD is in Korea—is not going to be an easy thing in a country which can still remember how the hated racist Japanese military regime force thousands of sisters, wives and daughters into prostitution as 'comfort women' and pressed husbands, sons and fathers into conscript service. That experience will be bitter in the memory of the Koreans for generations to come—and the reluctance of the Japanese to own up to their loathsome war crimes against their neighbors (look at how Nanking has mysteriously disappeared from their recent school textbooks, eh?) doesn't do much to help the case.

Add, as a second big helping of motivation for that denial, the mystique of TKD as an Olympic sport, and the desire to strongly separate it from karate in order to keep that mystique humming. A lot of the youngest generation of managers in the ROK bureaucracy might not feel exactly the same sharp intense anguish about the horrors of the Occupation (as vs. their parents and grandparents, who do), but they are well aware that TKD is a hot brand, even though its star is fading as that of MMA brightens. As long as TKD is an Olympic property, that's the way it's going to be. So there's a cynical nationalist economics which doesn't give a rat's ass about what actually happened, and who learned what from whom, if a feel-good alternative can be circulated and established. In a lot of the cultures in this part of the world, there is a very marked distinction between kinds of truth: official truth, and 'real' truth, and it's considered bad form to insist too much on the latter (which the Japanese call honne, as vs. the former, tatemæ). Karel von Wolferen discusses the distinction in his great book The Enigma of Japanese Power, but it's not just true of the Japanese, but of Korean and Chinese culture as well. It's considered bad form to question the official line too much, because it's understood that the official line has been put out there on 'our' behalf, and you're letting down the side to point out all the holes in it.

So the official line on the connections between KMAs and JMAs has a kind of protected status, because It Makes Us Look Good. It's a major cultural difference between Asian and western cultures, I think. And it all tends to give popular support to the kind of denial you're complaining about.

My feeling is, as long as we take our attitudes toward TKD from the ROK official line, we're going to be entangled in their contradication in this area. Time has come, I believe, to head out on our own.

[tkd1964]

When General Choi was the Ambassador to Malaysia, he said many didn't even know of Korea and some thought it was part of China. He was very Nationalistic and wanted not only fellow Koreans to take pride of their Nation but also those in other countries. He used TKD as a tool to spread the Korean culture with his Demo teams.