arrogant and inexperience

[thekuntawman]

i notice that people who have just a little experience, think they know a lot because they study with master so and so, and challenge even a filipino on the tagalog language! they believe that since they dont see your ad in the magazine you dont know much, and since you dont go around doing seminars and giving out certificates you are not that good. and they argue everything you say that they dont know much about, so you must not know what your talking about.

i am not talking about how people treat me, i am talking about how you guys treat remy presas kids.

i saw them in person, and i can tell you, the skill of those "children" is better than what i seen most of the "updated" modern arnis people have. you think you have to study with someone forever to stay good? TMS--too much seminar. your knowledge is only updated in your training, not re-certificate every year. the son of remy presas can show you a thing, if anything, how to look better swinging your sticks. so what if he doesnt know the new method of tapi tapi. is there art no longer presas style arnis? just because you didnt see tham at any of these seminars?

i think i am illiterate now. i never went back to the 8th grade in more than 20 years. that's bs.

so maybe they didnt study from there dad when you see them. when i teach my daughter and my brother, i do it at home. my brother is far ahead of my students with 2 years experience. i can bet money, that the presas kids got more than 3,4 seminars a year, mr know it all. now maybe he evolve to one direction, and they went another direction, but i am sure mr presas did not leave his kids with poor skills. and so what if the teaching is not the same what you got in those seminars, maybe you might like what they have to show that is new to you. but instead you insult them because you didnt know remy presas kids new arnis at all.

it is also disrepect for the students to show disresepct to the teachers children. do you think he would be pleased with you?

arrogance. no respect. green young lions.

in many filipino styles, and maybe you dont know this from watching video and going to seminar and reading websites, you would have to call presas juinior, gran master presas, like it or not. what do they have to do to get some respect, sell you a black belt certificate?

[Mickey]

Yet in the Mcmanus thread you hope people will attack someone, so it is ok if you say it is ok, but not ok if you think it should not be?

I am confused :confused:

[Cruentus]

Would you mind specifying "who" exactly your directing your post too. There are a lot of different Modern Arnis Factions, so some specification would be appropriate, I think.

[thekuntawman]

i dont follow who is who in modern arnis. but i read the post here because anything about philippine martial arts is interesting to me.

to answer micky's question, i am talking about anyone who been in the art for 10 years or less, and says he love remy presas, is not showing this love for your teacher by insulting his kids. now if you have just a little time in the art, how can you doubt the skill of someone who train with remy presas, MORE THAN YOU, just because you saw him 3-4 times a year in the last 10 years of his life? like those people in the philippines who study with him before he came to the US. is there knowledge less than yours because they didnt "update" training by taking seminars with people with less time and experience?

i am talking about the comment i read in any topic with the kids of remy presas. instead of welcome them, you are saying, who are you, i dint see you at any of those seminars?

i am not interested to read the old postings and see whose name is there. but those of you who got little respect, you know who you are.

if you are offended by the things i am saying here, than i am probably talking about you.

"Yet in the Mcmanus thread you hope people will attack someone, so it is ok if you say it is ok, but not ok if you think it should not be?"

no i dont want anybody to be attack. if i think they need attackig i will do it myself. i am talking about lisa mcmanus was a BROWN BELT in 1999. i know, because i know a friend of hers. and today, she is a 5th degree? the fault aint hers, dont insult her, insult the teacher who give it to her.

oh here, i'll say it...who ever gave her the 5th degree is bastardising the modern arnis name, how bout that?

[Dan Anderson]

Dear Kuntawman,
Not all of us are dissing the Presas family. I, Kelly Worden and Tim Hartman a just a few who have a good relationship with them. Kelly is the closest and has had the family do several seminars at this school in Tacoma. I gave them my demonstration slot at the first Filipino Martial Arts Gathering in San Francisco last year. Personally, I am glad they are on the scene.

I remember Prof. Presas mentioning MaryAnn a number of times and that she was a good arnisador. I also remember meeting Demetrio at a summer camp when he was a kid. They didn't see much of their father for quite some time but when he was ill, they welcomed each other with open arms and their reason for carrying on the Presas name with MARPPIO is because it is his wish that they continue the art. The more the merrier, I say.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Yes, the promotion of Lisa McManus to 5th degree now when she was a brown belt in 1999 is a bit premature.

[Cruentus]

Thanks for the clarification.

Although I agree with you on several of your points, now that you have clarified, I do not agree with the way you first presented yourself in this thread. The reason is because you are not a Modern Arnis student. Because of this, you came off as arrogent. If there was a political issues with Kuntaw (not that there would be, but this is just an example) I wouldn't jump into a forum for Kuntaw and pretend like I know what I am talking about, for I haven't been in the art to know the dynamics of the politics.

I think you it would have been more effective to ask a question, such as "Why is it that some people seem to show little respect for the Presas children?" or something of the like. You probably would have gotten some feedback regarding the situation. Then, of course if you disagree then say so.

People are more apt to listen to you if you are trying to understand them, then if you preach or rant at them. This is just my observation.

On a less critical note, as to the comment "who ever gave her (McManus) a 5th degree is bastardizing the modern arnis name." That is a keen observation, that I would have to agree with.

:asian:

[Mickey]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
i dont follow who is who in modern arnis. but i read the post here because anything about philippine martial arts is interesting to me.

to answer micky's question, i am talking about anyone who been in the art for 10 years or less, and says he love remy presas, is not showing this love for your teacher by insulting his kids. now if you have just a little time in the art, how can you doubt the skill of someone who train with remy presas, MORE THAN YOU, just because you saw him 3-4 times a year in the last 10 years of his life? like those people in the philippines who study with him before he came to the US. is there knowledge less than yours because they didnt "update" training by taking seminars with people with less time and experience?

i am talking about the comment i read in any topic with the kids of remy presas. instead of welcome them, you are saying, who are you, i dint see you at any of those seminars?

i am not interested to read the old postings and see whose name is there. but those of you who got little respect, you know who you are.

if you are offended by the things i am saying here, than i am probably talking about you.

"Yet in the Mcmanus thread you hope people will attack someone, so it is ok if you say it is ok, but not ok if you think it should not be?"

no i dont want anybody to be attack. if i think they need attackig i will do it myself. i am talking about lisa mcmanus was a BROWN BELT in 1999. i know, because i know a friend of hers. and today, she is a 5th degree? the fault aint hers, dont insult her, insult the teacher who give it to her.

oh here, i'll say it...who ever gave her the 5th degree is bastardising the modern arnis name, how bout that?


Thank you for the clarification. :)

[arnisandyz]

In defense of the kuntawman (not that he needs it)... No he may not be a modern arnis student or guro, but he IS a Pinoy of Filipino decent with a background and history of the way the art was and should be taught and its culture. And in our culture, anybody of seniority even outside of your "style" is due proper respect.

Going the other way. in a sence Grandmaster Presas invited this upon himself by offering the art to the world which is not always keen on Filipino culture.

[Rich Parsons]

the kuntawman,

Sir, Have I insulted you or the Presas Family? If so please advise me here or in private, as you see fit. :asian:


I can undertand your frustration, yet I might not agree with your delivery. We have crossed paths in the past, and I have not thought we were enemies or anything like that.

You speak of Arrogance and Inexperience. I would say that no country or group of people have no arrogance or all arrogance. To one culture it could seem normal and to another it could be arrogance, when actualy it is just being reserved. As for the inexperience, this is your judgement call, and it fair for you to say so. Yet, from many of your posts, you seem to be inexperenced to me in the ways of communications and instructions. You might be excellant as an instructor in person and to other Filipino's. To this I respect, until proven differently in person. So please, accept this not as an insult or challenge, just as a perception from someone of a different background and heritage. So, as one who is always willing to learn more, please advise me.

Thank You
:asian:

[Cruentus]

Professor Presas taught and developed a large portion of his art here in America. His art progressed until the day he died, and now it's up to his students to continue the progression. Given that he had travelled most weeks of the year to teach in America, many (or even most) of his students are American. Professor loved being Filipino, but when I knew him, he also loved being an American. If Professor had stayed completely traditional by the standards of his culture, he wouldn't have taught women, or university students in Physical education programs, or even non-Filipino's. He might not have even decided to develop "Modern" Arnis, but might have instead chosen to represent another system, such as Balintawak for example. The fact is, Modern Arnis was enabled to be created because Professor Presas didn't adhere to the constraints of any cultural view of "how things should be taught," Filipino, American, or other. How his students behave and interact, therefore, won't be constrained by these views either.

Bottom line: Respect is earned, not given freely, in any culture. No matter what your last name is, what color you are, what culture you come from, how old you are, or how long you trained; we all have to earn respect in the long run. Professor Presas earned it. He earned it the Phillipines, and he earned it here in America. Hell, he earned it all over the world.

The question is, will our leaders be able to do the same? Will you? A last name or a race only gets you so far.

Respectfully,
PAUL

P.S. Please understand that I mean no direct slam against the Presas Children, or against anyone in particular. I am simply stating my points, and the facts. :asian:

[Guro Harold]

Guys,

My two cents.

I. I think that we need to listen to Andy's clarifications in this regard.

II. Only the Presas Children are getting back on the scene. The other people like Mr. Dagooc have been around. Even so, they have a vast amount of experience from eating, breathing, and sleeping the art growing up. That has to be considered.

III. Common sense. To respect the father, in general, there must be some respect for his children. Them earning a spot in the world is a different thing but at least treat them with some decency. The alienation issue and lack of recent training is an issue that MARPPIO faced head on in their introduction of themselves at the seminar in Durham, maybe its something they do everywhere that they go.

IV. TheKuntawMan is not in Modern Arnis but he might have a contact associated with it and Ms. McManus;). Is this the typical reaction from those who are in Filipino family systems to the rapid promotion of Ms. McManus?

Palusut

[arnisandyz]

"Bottom line: Respect is earned, not given freely, in any culture."

So you mean to tell me if you meet you girlfriends father (your future father in law perhaps) for the first time, you are not going to show him respect until he earns it? Does he have to prove to you he diserves to be in the same room with you? Personally I would show respect even though I don't know the man, not only because the relation, but because he is much older and wiser than I am. In a totally unrelated side note: in America many people throw there mothers and fathers into nursing homes when they can't take care of themselves anymore, in the PI you have sometimes up to 4 generations living under one roof, no such things as nursing homes. (Is this different culture or diffent levels of respect?)

I am also proud to be Filipino AND American by the way I don't mean to cause more problems, but try to relate to both sides.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by PAUL
Thanks for the clarification.

Although I agree with you on several of your points, now that you have clarified, I do not agree with the way you first presented yourself in this thread. The reason is because you are not a Modern Arnis student. Because of this, you came off as arrogent. If there was a political issues with Kuntaw (not that there would be, but this is just an example) I wouldn't jump into a forum for Kuntaw and pretend like I know what I am talking about, for I haven't been in the art to know the dynamics of the politics.

I think you it would have been more effective to ask a question, such as "Why is it that some people seem to show little respect for the Presas children?" or something of the like. You probably would have gotten some feedback regarding the situation. Then, of course if you disagree then say so.

People are more apt to listen to you if you are trying to understand them, then if you preach or rant at them. This is just my observation.

On a less critical note, as to the comment "who ever gave her (McManus) a 5th degree is bastardizing the modern arnis name." That is a keen observation, that I would have to agree with.

:asian:

Paul,

When you get to Buffalo for the WMAA Camp, we should go to lunch on Saturday and talk. You have not done your homework or asked the right questions of the Kuntawman. He does have some background in Presas Style Arnis, he is an accomplished FMA player and instructor, he has inherited his family system of arnis/eskrima or as some would call it in the Philippines... 'kuntaw'
in addition to having a very credible reputation among some FMA instructors here in the USA. When I go to Sacremento, new spring for the graduation of a friend from college, I will be making a stop at Kuntawman's school to pay my respects and get some training.

He has made a number of important points and we should look at them carefully without regard for the screen name that he uses or our own assumptions about what he knows or does not know because of the name that he displays.

He has also made an error in his presentation, because he has based it on Pilipino culture and not the transplanation to American culture where the teach is not as revered as in the former.

BTW, don't you have a curriculum area entitled "kuntao" in the WMAA? Are you aware of the fact that before the WMAA was formed Datu Hartman used the the organizatiion names of "Arnis de Mano - Arnis Kuntao" and later he used "Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Sikaran". If everyone judged his system name as the totality of what he taught and represented could there not be a misunderstanding involving "kuntao"?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by DoctorB
BTW, don't you have a curriculum area entitled "kuntao" in the WMAA? Are you aware of the fact that before the WMAA was formed Datu Hartman used the the organizatiion names of "Arnis de Mano - Arnis Kuntao" and later he used "Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Sikaran". If everyone judged his system name as the totality of what he taught and represented could there not be a misunderstanding involving "kuntao"?

Yes, Mr. Hartman has always looked for a way to communicate to people that Modern Arnis is more than just stick-on-stick fighting, as some think--it also includes empty hand techniques. There is perhaps the possibility of a misunderstanding either way one goes!

[Cruentus]

You make some valid points, so I should clarify what I mean by "respect." I didn't think we where talking about respect for people in general. Generally speaking, I respect everyone unless they do something that causes me to LOSE respect for them. And of course, we all have a different level of respect for people because of a given status, like if they are your girlfriends parents, or your elders, or (since this is what started this) the children of your teacher.

But, I didn't think that was the kind of respect we are talking about here. I thought we were talking about respect (or recognition of status, or validation of skill, or whatever you want to call it) as an arnis player, or as a martial artist. There is a big difference between that kind of respect, and respecting someone because they are older, or your girlfriends father.

I respect my girlfriends father, but I don't recognize him as an Arnisador. I will respect you, Kuntawman, the Presas children, my girlfriends parents, or even a stranger I just meet. I will respect everyone and anyone on different levels. But, if you, the Kuntawman, the Presas Children, my girlfriends parents, or the stranger I just meet want recognition as an arnisador, that is an entirely different story. If anyone wants recognition as an arnisador, they have to EARN IT!

So, when I say that respect is earned, not given freely, in any culture, please understand that I am refering to recognition as a martial artist/arnisador, not just respect in general.

I may sound redundant here, but I want to hammer my point into everyones head because this is a touchy conversation, and I don't want to be misunderstood.

I respect Marppio for who they are, being the children of my late teacher. I have talked with Remy Jr. and Demetrio on the phone, and I must say that I like their personalities, and I respect them for their demeanor, and their status. If I was a school owner, I would consider bringing them to Michigan to host a seminar. Since I can't host them myself, I just hope that at some point I will get to see them. I was going to see them at the Filipino Brotherhood seminar in New York, but they couldn't make it. I was hoping to see them at the symposium, but they can't make it to that either. I would like to see them in action for myself, and hopefully someday that will happend.

Having said that.....do I recognize Marppio as being good arnisadors. I can't say that I do. I have yet to see them in action before I can make that determination. And I don't think that anyone has the right to say that I should without a doubt give them recognition as good arnis players (without having yet seen or trained with them) because of a last name. That wouldn't even be fair to them. I'm not saying that they ARE NOT good arnisadors either. I am just saying that respect as an arnisador has to be earned; and it can only happend for me when I play with them.

So, to further clarify, when someone says: "I bought so-and-so's tape, or I went to so-and-so's seminar, and I wasn't impressed," is this disrespectful? Or is it a valid opinion? I think it depends on the motive or how it is presented. But if the opinion is valid, then I think that person is entitled to it, and allowed to not give so-and-so credit as a good arnis player if they felt that "so-and-so" hasn't earned it. That "so-and-so" could be any arnis instructor, by the way.

So hopefully now I have clarified, and my point still stands: Respect [as an arnisador] is earned, not given freely.

Thank you,
PAUL

[Cruentus]

Thanks for the clarification on the Kuntawman.

I can see in his profile that he has experience in Filipino martial arts, but there is nothing that I saw in his profile about his training in Modern Arnis. He also says that "I don't follow who's who in Modern Arnis." So, he may be familiar with the system, but it appears that he is not in the system. There is a difference.

Example: I am familiar with Pekiti Tersia. I have trained with a few Pekiti folks, and I have attended seminars. But am I in the system? I would say not. So, if the Pekiti people had a forum, and if I got on and started making statements regarding political issues, and rebuking behaviors of Pekiti people with generalizations like "I don't agree with the way 'you guys' treat so-and-so," then how would I sound? I think I would sound arrogent. Plus it would be counterporductive. The Pekiti people would be asking themselves "who the hell is this guy" or "who does he think he is" rather then listening to what I have to say anyways.

I am not saying that the Kuntawman is arrogent, or a bad guy, or a bad martial artist. He probably is a good guy. I'd like to meet him someday. However, this doesn't change that I feel that he could have introduced this thread in a different manner, because the original way in which it was done came accrossed as kind of arrogent to me. I'm just glad that I asked for clarification instead of going with my original interpretation of his actions.

For the record, he did indeed clarify himself, so I don't think he was trying to be arrogent at all, even if that was the way he originally sounded to me. Once I was able to get past my original interpretation of his post, I was able to see his points more clearly.

One last thing.....I would be glad to get lunch sometime w/ you and chat in buffalo! :D

Paul

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoctorB
BTW, don't you have a curriculum area entitled "kuntao" in the WMAA? Are you aware of the fact that before the WMAA was formed Datu Hartman used the the organizatiion names of "Arnis de Mano - Arnis Kuntao" and later he used "Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Sikaran". If everyone judged his system name as the totality of what he taught and represented could there not be a misunderstanding involving "kuntao"?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


For the record the organization name was never Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Sikaran, it was the Can-Am chapter of the IMAF. This is found here, http://web.archive.org/web/20000303101456/http://www.wmarnis.com/

The name was used for my school cirriculum. This was used for in school belt promotions and was NEVER used as an organization.

Respectfully
Tim Hartman

:asian:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Actually I used the word KUNTAO as suggested by Dr. Barber.

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoctorB
BTW, don't you have a curriculum area entitled "kuntao" in the WMAA?
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

This has rescently been changed to Mano - Mano to fit more in the spirit of FMA.

[thekuntawman]

hello
i didnt mean to offend people, only to point my finger to some people who have some attitude to remy presas kids. i notice the same attitude some pekiti tirsia people here in the US have to old students of leo gaje from the philippines that THEY never heard before. and from some of the sayoc students to leo gaje. wether we like it or not people will always hold opinions of us, its just that most people wont say it. i am just one of those people who always say it. right now it pissed people off becuase i am young, but when i get to be like 60 or something years old, people will listen and they will call my opinion "wisdom", even if they dont like it. but as a young man, my experience only is called "smart aleck".

your name means nothing, i agree. so is your race. but i also say, so is your resume, your bibliography, your popularity, and the size of your school or organization. but to many people respect is earned for people who have many videos and do lots of seminars. they have to see your name in the magazine a lot, or read it on the internet. i go by your ability to fight with your skills. but i also respect age and sometimes skill without seeing the fighting. but in talking about the presas kids, people say, i havent heard of you, you just popped into the scene (this part is not true, they are just not on the US seminar world), i dont know you. how about, nice to meet you, son of my arnis teacher? most of the modern arnis people i read about i had respect for before i saw the skills, only because they are high ranking students of remy presas, the brother of two of my teachers, ernesto and roberto. some i lost respect after i heard there talking, and saw that they did not have much skills, just long resume. now, i see some people like hoch, who turned his back to arnis, calling it impractical, when what he is doing is base in the "FMA".

[thekuntawman]

some of these people argue with people who knows more than they do because they think there teacher, remy presas knows more or is better than some little skinny young punk from the philippines. then you find out, he only saw his teacher 5 times a year, how can you have a lot of respect for that? my philosophy for respect was different then, i respected first, and got more later, or lost it later.

back to modern arnis, i study modern arnis, presas style for two years in the PI in ARJUKEN. when i came back to the US one of my good friends billy bryant showed me the "difference" of remy to ernesto's style. i didnt see much except remy likes stick to stick patterns, and ernesto like sparring. the basics are the same, but the philosophy in those days different. ernesto is not going to give a black belt unless you travel to him and train for a long time with him in his school remy travels to you, and will give the certificate faster. but for art, as somebody who knows up to black belt from both men, its the same. i dont know about tapi tapi, because i didnt see it yet.

you know i will have to go back and read the posting again because i forgot what i wanted to write.

[thekuntawman]

oh yeah, the reason i already gave it, that the presas kids didnt get much respect. but here is another one:

you dont know your dad's system like i do. you didnt train with him in the last 10 years, i dont think.

do you really think remy presas is going to leave his kids with average skills, and train them like he train everybody else, a few seminars a year and a camp??? no, i guarantee you they spent daily time with him, and when i met remy jr. i can see it in his movement, that he trained every day when he is learning. sorry, but you can look at someone and tell did he learn in seminar or in daily training. i disagree that you know modern arnis better because you knowed the new addition to the system. his root is the same, and some people have a stronger root than another, no matter how many leaves you see. men like dan, mr barber and mr inocallah, who have long time in modern arnis can probably show these new tapi tapi people a thing or two about modern arnis because of a longer root in the system. my thing is, remy jr will probably give you this better because he know his dad longer and have more time with him than anyone here.

sitting at bedside in death cannot add up to a lifetime of knowledge. you respect your senior even if you think your better in skills than he is, not all knowledge can be seen on a stupid video or a damn demonstration.

[thekuntawman]

i am sorry, this computer keeps throwing me out, and i forget what i wanted to say.

anyway, about arrogance. boasting is very common to filipino teachers. this is how we get the philippine martial arts today, that some teachers feel they have the best style, and there is only one way to see who is best. but you have your quiet killers, and your loudmouth ones.

today is not considered cool to say "my style is the best" but you will find many who will still do it, maybe behind closed doors, but they do it. you will also find it in the attitudes of the teachers. i consider this a good thing, because its keeps people on his toes, and the ones who are secretly afraid they are not as good either shut up, or they becomes enemy of the ones they wanted to be ("FMA doesnt work/ is not practical/ i improved it"). the rivalry is good, because this is how our old teachers got a chance to prove himself, and improve his styles.

the conflict or argue ment is good because it helps us get a thick skin, and not to get our feelings hurt easily, as i see many "FMA" teachers today have this kind of softness.

but dont confuse softness with humbleness. some of these humble men will hurt you. remy jr is very humble, but he is very good with his stick. also, dont confuse loud mouth with arrogance or ignorance. many loud mouth man can back themself up, they get many opportnity to prove themself.

when remy died, i am sure people came to remy jr, and ernesto, to say, you should take remys organization, they needed a leader. on bladeforums, i made one posting, title "advice for our modern arnis brothers". people got all mad and stuff, like who do i thing i am, i dont know modern arnis. but i know martial arts culture, and i know inexperience young teachers when i see it. 15 years in the martial arts is not a lot, trust me.

anyway, my uncle said to ernesto presas last year, to take over as modern arnis grandmaster in the US. i forgot what he said to my uncle, but i think it was something like, those people would never take that. so now, he is building another organization here, when those style is so similar to each other. remy jr, wanted to offer his knowledge, but you know, people are so high nose and all, saying i know remy and his style better than you, who are you? dont you know that the son of the "GM" will be the new GM in most style? and if there is somone better fighter than him, you accept his leadership, or break away, unless remy said "this guy will be the new leader". i didnt get to write remy jr, but i will probably do it tonight, i am sure he is suprised how different people are to him. he might have a lot to show you people, but you are not going to get much in one seminar or one demo, or one video. the heart of a martial art comes from being with your teacher day after day for a long time. who can say they have that except the ones who study with remy when he was in one place for a long time? my OPINION is, either the pilipino students, or his own son.

where i grew up, any parent can tell another persons kid, hey straighten up, when his parents are not there. martial arts teachers should be this way around even another teachers students. but even one teacher to another, who has more expereince than another, shouldnt be afraid to say, hey, my opinion is...

but to answer somebody question, i dont get offended. and i am not insulted. and i am not a flower smeller, so i talk to another martial artist how i talk to everyone else. maybe some people dont like me, but if you listen, you might hear me.

[Cruentus]

my OPINION is, either the pilipino students, or his own son.

Ahhhh..............so it's a racial thing. Gee, I sure hope not, because I have seen this racial thing before second hand. When Datu Hartman was promoted to "Datu" he got hammered on eskrima digest for recieving the title as a non-filipino. He also was challanged to a knife fight when he recieved the Punong Guro title in Germany, because he was not Filipino. These are just a few examples off the top of my head.

Racial things can get ugly. Professor Presas spent a lot of time here in the States, and there are plenty of non-Filipino's who had studied with him for a long time, whether it be in one place, or all the places they would travel to meet with him. And no, I am not refering to your average seminar Junkie who saw him twice a year between BJJ/Sambo and JKD Seminars, while running a Karate school at the same time. I'm talking about devoted students who put in their time. Shouldn't these people be considered as well?

His devoted students in the Philippines missed a quarter of a century of training with the man. This doesn't mean that they aren't good arnisadors, but it does mean that they missed a quarter of a century of progression with the art. Should they be the next GM or successor of "Modern Arnis." Not when their interpretation of the art is a quarter of a century behind. Could they be a master in their own right? Well, that depends on them. But sole heirs to the system...I think not!

Well how about all of Remy Presas' children then. If we are going to keep it traditional, and let the sole heirs to the art be the ones with the last name, then that would make 2 of his other children that no body ever seems to talk about (Renia and Joseph, both under 10 years old, I believe). Maybe we should crown them GM as well, while we're at it.

Doesn't sound so good, does it? How about we go with the recomendation of the Filipino government, then, who named Marppio the heirs to Modern Arnis. Oh wait....could this be the SAME Filipino Government that made Professor Flee for his life, which was brought him to america in the first place? Gee, I think it might be. O.K.....different leader, but same system, and same government. It might as well be the same leader. If we take this route, then we maybe we should get a recomendation from Narriphil (sp??) while we're at it.

No, not that solution? Well maybe we'll look at the will and trust and decide who should be the sole heirs based off of that. Wait a second....Remy Presas' children aren't even MENTIONED in the will. Uh oh...we'd better take on a differen't strategy, and quick, before people start to notice.

Maybe, then, we'll recommend an heir of the art based on general leadership and recognition by Remy, while Remy was alive. Surely that should do the trick. But wait a second....I've been in the system since 1990....and I didn't hear about Professor's children as students or teachers of Modern Arnis at all during that time while Professor was alive. But hey, I'm inexperienced (and sometimes arrogent...heh....), so perhaps with my world view being so small, and in my ignorance, they have been training with Professor, but I have missed it. Well, when I asked friends from other parts of the country, it seems that it isn't just me. NOBODY has seen them around in the 90's training with their father. O.K......so they missed the 90's. No big deal, right? Maybe they trained in the 80's with professor. Asked around.....nope, they sure didn't.

O.K. here is a side bar. when I first rekindled my communication with Datu Hartman after Professors death, I had asked about MARPPIO. Hell, I didn't even know Professors kids even lived in the states still. I just hadn't heard anything about them. So I asked Tim about the family. Tim said that he knew them a little bit, and he had stayed with them before. When I asked about their experience in Modern Arnis, and why I hadn't heard of them while Professor was alive, he had said that they (the children) told him that they hadn't had anything to do with their fathers art since he brought them over in 1980. This is the truth, and it came from Marppio, and hopefully Datu Hartman won't B**ch slap me for saying so.

I could continue, but the point is, Kuntawman, you really don't know what the hell you are talking about. The dynamics of the situation, and the political arena of Modern Arnis is too complex for you're limited knowledge of the situation. I am not refering to your knowledge of FMA, of Filipino culture, but the situation. Period. For the record, also, I didn't want to have to throw this in your face, but you have kinda forced it out of me with your statements.


A Note on The Presas Children: I will give credit where credit is due, also. The Presas Children had done wonderful things for the art in the philippines, and I am sure learned a lot while Professor was in the philippines. They had put significant time and training in during that time. There are other students of the art who stayed in the philippines, such as Rodel Dagooc (From my understanding) and taught and propigated the art, and made it their own. Others who had been there in the beginning, such as Roland Dantes for instance, propigated MA in other areas of the world, such as Australia, I believe.

The point is, all these people may have something to offer, and are our brothers in the art. They are all worth seeing, even if it is only once. Should any of these people be crowned heir to Professors system, while having missed 20 years or more of progression of the art. No they shouldn't. Not unless they can prove that even thought they missed this progression, that they are still the kings of the modern arnis mountain though their skills.
Until that happends indefinatily, don't count on any of these people being recognized as such by the majority.

Kuntawman...want to know what Demetrio had said to me over the phone? He had told me to not worry about all the "successorship" and "Grandmaster" stuff. We are all successors, for we all hold modern arnis in our hearts. Not bad advise. I was very impressed by that statement. I think you should realize that Marppio is out there to teach what they know, not to claim Successorship, or to take away from the students who have been around since Professor lived in america. So, you shouldn't try to take away from these American students either. And by doing so, I don't think your helping Marppio at all.

Also, to Marppio: I am sorry to bring up so much dirt. I may have inadvertently offended you. That is not my intention. My intention, rather, is to put everyone who is a "successor" of the art in their own right, with the art in their heart, on an equal playing feild. I feel that the Kuntawman had not done this, but rather in his ignorance unfairly elivated some, while unfairly downplaying others.

Also everyone....sorry for the long post. That is what happends, unfortunatily, when I get pissed off. :soapbox:

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by arnisador
Yes, Mr. Hartman has always looked for a way to communicate to people that Modern Arnis is more than just stick-on-stick fighting, as some think--it also includes empty hand techniques. There is perhaps the possibility of a misunderstanding either way one goes!

You have missed the point of the comment in terms of the context of the total discussion.

More will be spelled out in a reply to Renegade.

You also wrote as the title:

"Re: Kuntao ("Ken Po" or more loosely "Kung Fu")"

Not quite accurate: kenpo/kempo is Japanese translation of the Chinese word "chu'an fa" and both are translated into English as "fist law" or "law of the fist". Kuntao actually translate into English as "China Way" or "Way of China" and was derived from an Indonesian language then later spelled "kuntaw" in some parts of the Philippines. It does not even "loosely" translate as "kung or gong fu". There is a good deal of Chinese martial arts in Kuntao, particularly as practiced in Indonesia, Malaysia and the Southern Philippines, however the Kuntaw style could be either a Chinese variant of the internal arts or it could be a variant of Shotokan.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Renegade
For the record the organization name was never Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Sikaran, it was the Can-Am chapter of the IMAF. This is found here, http://web.archive.org/web/20000303101456/http://www.wmarnis.com/

The name was used for my school cirriculum. This was used for in school belt promotions and was NEVER used as an organization.

Respectfully
Tim Hartman

:asian:

Let me make this comment, Tim, because we are in a bit of a disagreement. I hosted two seminars for you in 1992 and 1993 and the logos that YOU provided had the names Anis de Mano - Arnis Kuntao and in 1993 the logo titles words were Arnis de Mano - Arnis Sikaran. There was nothing mentioned about Can-Am Chapter of the IMAF! If you had provided that information it would have been published as such, even if the words did not appear on the logo!

In addition I have one of your business cards with each of the above titles in place under your name. On the web site you have one thing but it is not consistant with what you had on your business card. I am well aware that your cards changed over time but what I posted was factual and correct.

Renegade, also wrote:
Actually I used the word KUNTAO as suggested by Dr. Barber.

Correct and thanks for the acknowledgement. BTW, I assume the part that I got half right from your perspctive was regarding the Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Arnis title. I passed the idea along frorm Professor, who had suggested that I use the term when I founded the "Western New York Modern Arnis Associates" in 1989. He was aware of the fact that Kuntao was taught in the Philippines and it would have, in his opinion, been acceptable to use the term to indicate that I taught an empty hand art in conjuction to my stick arts. I decided against using the term because I did not have any instruction in the art AND I had a perfect companion art to arnis in my Tracy Kenpo.

Which now brings us to the critical point - you misunderstood what I wrote to Paul and took my comments entirely out of context. Paul made several assumptions based on the screen name "Kuntawman". The point that I was making for his consideration was that there is a kuntao segmant of the WMAA curriculum AND if someone were to focus on that they would have a distorted and incomplete understanding of the curriculum as well as what Paul (WMAA) actually teaches.

To spell it out a bit more given your comments and those of Arnisador, some people could assume that you and the WMAA instructors have trained in and use the Kuntao Silat arts of the Philippines or Indonesia. You do not! But reading the curriculum information does not clearly indicate that fact. Someone might ask a WMAA instructor to show their juru #1 or their lankas. Your system does not contain instruction in either. So is it misleading to use that term? Perhaps! Could there be misunderstandings? Yes?

Because we have talked and discussed some curriculum matters in the past, I am well aware that "Kuntao" in your organizational context is a belt requirement that refers to escapes from grabs,
use of joint-locks and throws. If memory serves, you have 33 techniques in that belt grouping.

In context, my message for Paul's consideration was, 'do not just focus on the screen name'! Nothing more and nothing less. Using an example that he is familiar with allows him to consider my point more critically. Don't get your knickers all in a knot, there was no intention to misrepresent you or your organization.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Cruentus]

In context, my message for Paul's consideration was, 'do not just focus on the screen name'!

Personally, My Knickers aren't in a knot over the use of the term Kuntao. I don't know about Arnisadors or Renegades...uh...knickers.

I do want to say that I had looked in Kuntawmans profile, and I based my posts off of the information I had available on his background that he presented in the profile, as well as based off of what he said in this thread, and other forums.

Just wanted to clarify, but I got your point.

Thx,
PAUL :asian:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoctorB
I hosted two seminars for you in 1992 and 1993 and the logos that YOU provided had the names Anis de Mano - Arnis Kuntao and in 1993 the logo titles words were Arnis de Mano - Arnis Sikaran. There was nothing mentioned about Can-Am Chapter of the IMAF! If you had provided that information it would have been published as such, even if the words did not appear on the logo!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

I'm on my way to Philly in the morning so I don't have much time.

The cards and logos were for my school, not an organization. Remy used the Arnis De Mano, Jornales the Sikaran. I taught both in my program so both were in the name. I NEVER had an organization until Remy had me do the Can-Am Chapter of the IMAF.

Respectfully,
Tim Hartman
:asian:

[Pappy Geo]

Quoted by Paul:

"Demetrio had said to me over the phone? He had told me to not worry about all the "successorship" and "Grandmaster" stuff. We are all successors, for we all hold modern arnis in our hearts."




That about sums up MARRPIO'S ideology the way I understand it from them also. They believe there is/was only one Grandmaster and that was Remy Sr.

Since the professor always projected Modern Arnis as the "Art within your Art" how can there be a pure Modern Arnis? With the Professor gone, the art dilutes as he was the evolutionist. When you adapted the art to your present foundation a new flavor evolved. Every Senior has a different flavor of Modern Arnis, are any more correct than the other? Just evolved differently to adapt to your foundation, your physical body limitations, how you were encouraged to develop by the Professor.

It appears Modern Arnis has blended differently across the world, was it ever a "pure" system even when the Professor was alive? I guarantee you, every Datu and Sr, will do the forms and practice the system differently from each other.

Us Northwest guys will have a slightly different style than the Eastern US family, the Texas family, the German family and different from the Filipino Modern Arnis practioners. Marrpio has the same foundation as the rest of us from a different part of the world and time, they also have evolved along their path differently as each one of us has.

I Have spent time with the Presas family they are absolutely wonderful people, very sincere, extremely talented and actually both Remy Jr and Demetrio have separate specialty talents developed down different paths from each other. They have the right to claim the hertigage, they do not want to claim the "Grandmaster" title, with the heritgage they feel comes the responsibility to share their knowledge and continue down the path their father began. They are not interested in the politics only in sharing with and embracing Modern Arnis practitioners as family and I ask you this why not share with them what you have that they may not, make this a two way street for everybody's benefit?

Acknowledging what I have just discussed why not accept that we all may be a little different in our interpretation of modern Arnis but we are still in the same family? Share like mature family members not bicker like young siblings.

Pappy Geo

[arnisador]

I honestly am not sure where I stand on the issue of whether or not there ever was a pure Modern Arnis--surely if there was it changed with time--but one thing I would disagree with is that "Art within your Art" was the (main) reason why there wasn't. I think there were other reasons that were much more important--evolution and disorganization and the seminar teaching style, for example.

[thekuntawman]

"who can say they have that except the ones who study with remy when he was in one place for a long time? my OPINION is, either the pilipino students, or his own son."

this is has nothing to do with race. i am talking about people who train with remy presas when he taught in the same place, every day, for a long time. when you study with someone a few times a year, and maybe one week camp or something, you cannot get what you will get from a few years or even ONE year of training full time with a martial art teacher. well, you have to get study for a much longer time than what you are comparing to.

let me ask a question, how long did remy presas go without HIS teacher? probably a long time. after a point you do not need to be fed your information. i dont believe your going to get to that point in a few years when you study only a few times a year. so am i talking about people who learn here in the US with mr presas? yes i am. study in the seminar, and it will take you probably 10 times longer to achieve the level you will get when you train full time. but i am not talking about race, i am talking about time in training, and commitment. ernesto presas has some committed students, because they came to the philippines to study with him for 1, 2 months, and sometimes two or three times a year. how many people who go to these seminars can say the martial art is that important to them? how about one guy, from texas, who stayed in the philippines for one year just to learn arnis, you cannot compare his commitment level to the one of a seminar goer. pissed off? good. its true. my only point about the pilipino students is they will have a look into the arnis art that a seminar goer cannot get in his study, and he should not shut out these people because the miss the last 20 years or whatever.

now my point about remy junior is he is a connection to remy senior. if you dont like him, dont. but you cannot say you love remy and reject his son. and for his art, if you dont see what he has to offer you will miss something. if you dont want to that is fine to, because it doesnt change my life.

i am only offering advice, those who dont want it just dont take it.

remy jr is only offering information. those dont want that information, dont take that either. but if you disrespect him in public dont get mad when you raised the eyebrow of people who "don't know what the hell they are talking about."

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by PAUL
Personally, My Knickers aren't in a knot over the use of the term Kuntao. I don't know about Arnisadors or Renegades...uh...knickers.

I do want to say that I had looked in Kuntawmans profile, and I based my posts off of the information I had available on his background that he presented in the profile, as well as based off of what he said in this thread, and other forums.

Just wanted to clarify, but I got your point.

Thx,
PAUL :asian:

Hello Paul,

Yeah, knickers... and I know that you got my point, that's why I dropped out of the thread and let you and Kuntawman continue the discussion as it would develop between the two of you. On the other hand, Renegade's presentation of what was or was not an organization vs. a school name or curriculum, while very clear in his mind was not as clear to others including myself, because of his business cards and two school names that he used at different times, both before and during the run of the Can-Am Chapter of the IMAF.

Thanks for making sure that I understood that you got my point and accepting the invitation to lunch at the WMAA Camp.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Renegade
I'm on my way to Philly in the morning so I don't have much time.

The cards and logos were for my school, not an organization. Remy used the Arnis De Mano, Jornales the Sikaran. I taught both in my program so both were in the name. I NEVER had an organization until Remy had me do the Can-Am Chapter of the IMAF.

Respectfully,
Tim Hartman
:asian:

I can accept what you have posted, however the failure to have a clear presentation on your former business cards and the fact that you have also used both "Horizion Martial Arts" and "Western NY Institute of Martail Arts" as school names - both of which were used in the Yellow Pages of the phone book, just further muddies the waters. Just drop the whole thing, Tim, it is in the past, your presentations of school vs. organization vs. business names were not very clear in the 1990's, except to you and a few close associates.

The WMAA as the organization and your re-establishment of "Horizion Martial Arts" as a school name are much cleaner and easily understood.

Paul understand my point about "kuntao" and there is no need to take this diversionary discussion any further. It is done!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[ARNIS PRINCESS]

Originally posted by DoctorB
I can accept what you have posted, however the failure to have a clear presentation on your former business cards and the fact that you have also used both "Horizion Martial Arts" and "Western NY Institute of Martail Arts" as school names - both of which were used in the Yellow Pages of the phone book, just further muddies the waters. Just drop the whole thing, Tim, it is in the past, your presentations of school vs. organization vs. business names were not very clear in the 1990's, except to you and a few close associates.

The WMAA as the organization and your re-establishment of "Horizion Martial Arts" as a school name are much cleaner and easily understood.

Paul understand my point about "kuntao" and there is no need to take this diversionary discussion any further. It is done!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


Dr. Barber-

What is your problem?! YOU started this whole bit about organization vs curriculum names, and when Mr. Hartman gives his explanation about his use of the term "kuntao", YOU decide ..there is no need to take this diversionary discussion any further. It is done! Who named you "Organization/Curriculum/Business Card Police"? I also have Mr. Hartman's business cards. Did you happen to mention that his business card also states "International Modern Arnis Federation"? Just because someone puts a logo on their card, does not mean that it is "their" organization. Case in point, I also have a card from Punong Guro Doug Pierre. There are two logos - GrandMaster Remy A. Presas Modern Arnis logo and Modern Arnis Domog logo. Is "GrandMaster Remy A. Presas Modern Arnis" Mr. Pierre's organization - or does he just teach Modern Arnis? Is Modern Arnis Domog an organization? Or is it a school? Or is it just a curriculum? Not very clear - is it?

As for the name of Mr. Hartman's school changing....you are obviously not a businessman. Dissolution of partnerships is a daily occurance. Unless agreed upon, a business name cannot be used after a partnership is dissolved. And I am sure we both can name many businesses that have changed their name for whatever the reason.

It is amusing to see you tell Mr. Hartman ...there is no need to take this diversionary discussion any further. It appeared that Mr. Hartman was only trying to clarify a misstatement on your part. Unfortunately, when the discussion started going against you, you decide it was "diversionary".

I would consider "diversionary" - mentioning YOUR symposium on every thread you can possibly sneak it into.

And speaking of your symposium, you have already lost the Presas Family, Kelly Worden and Dan McConnell. Are you sure you want to risk losing another instructor due to your caustic remarks? I, myself, was looking forward to seeing Datu Worden and the Presas family. I am definitely rethinking my decision to attend the event.

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo:
Since the professor always projected Modern Arnis as the "Art within your Art" how can there be a pure Modern Arnis?

The closest thing to a pure Modern Arnis was HIS performance of it, in my estimation.

With the Professor gone, the art dilutes as he was the evolutionist.

Not necessarily. He evolved it from a Filipino art (balintawak and what he learned from his family) and blended it with other arts, most notably karate and judo and later, small circle ju-jutsu. Are we not doing the same with the art, Kelly, Tim and I among others?

When you adapted the art to your present foundation a new flavor evolved.

Absolutely

Every Senior has a different flavor of Modern Arnis, are any more correct than the other? Just evolved differently to adapt to your foundation, your physical body limitations, how you were encouraged to develop by the Professor.

It appears Modern Arnis has blended differently across the world, was it ever a "pure" system even when the Professor was alive? I guarantee you, every Datu and Sr, will do the forms and practice the system differently from each other.

To quote Prof. Presas, "You got it, baby."

Us Northwest guys will have a slightly different style than the Eastern US family, the Texas family, the German family and different from the Filipino Modern Arnis practioners. Marrpio has the same foundation as the rest of us from a different part of the world and time, they also have evolved along their path differently as each one of us has.

Yep.

I Have spent time with the Presas family they are absolutely wonderful people... They are not interested in the politics only in sharing with and embracing Modern Arnis practitioners as family and I ask you this why not share with them what you have that they may not, make this a two way street for everybody's benefit?

Acknowledging what I have just discussed why not accept that we all may be a little different in our interpretation of modern Arnis but we are still in the same family? Share like mature family members not bicker like young siblings.

Sounds like a good idea and thanks for the good post. See you in West Linn next weekend.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by ARNIS PRINCESS
And speaking of your symposium, you have already lost the Presas Family, Kelly Worden and Dan McConnell. Are you sure you want to risk losing another instructor due to your caustic remarks? I, myself, was looking forward to seeing Datu Worden and the Presas family. I am definitely rethinking my decision to attend the event.

Dear ARNIS PRINCESS,

I am not one of the promoters but I sincerely hope that you are going to attend the Symposium. I know for a fact that training and exposure to different flavors of Modern Arnis is going to be the focus of this event. Forum discussion and the dissing of other instructors or other affiliations is not.

As to losing the Presas family and Kelly Worden, I think Kelly had the Presas family already booked in Tacoma at his school. I think Dan McConnell has family committments. They will be missed as they represent a very valid portion of current day Modern Arnis. Senior IMAF and IMAF, Inc. representatives will be missed for the same reason.

Anyway, the Symposium will go on and it will be an excellent event. I continue to look forward to a very positive camp and will continue pushing the positive end of it. I hope you will attend.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[Pappy Geo]

Sidebar here for Dan,

I was watching with Kelly a 1984 video yesterday called "T-Town battle of the black belts" (T for Tacoma). There was this thin young guy with lots of hair I mean lots of hair kicking butt in the ring. I said to Kelly whoever that is, is a real firecracker! He laughs and said that is Dan! No way! Yep everybody's changes! Laura Worden was only about 22, she would have been a candidate for the show on TV "are you hot", really foxy! ( she is still good looking but a lady now). She too was kicking butt! Kelly was the Referee tall, skinny not even 30 yet.

Priceless treasures from nearly 20 years ago! Is it time to start a Modern Arnis historical museum or library of old pictures and videos of the Professor and the senior students?, bonding everyone's common respect for the art. Maybe the could be reproduced and sold to support the cost of such library.

Anyway I got a real kick out of it!

[Cruentus]

The one thing that you continue to disregard is Professor Presas' dynamic and diverse relationships that he had developed, not just in the Philippines.

Now, I'm sure he had developed a good student/teacher relationship to his core students in the Phil.; I know that there were people dedicated to him, who trained with him diligently while he was in his native country. Maybe Marppio, his own children and others, were some of these dedicated students. I can't say for certain (nor can you), for we weren't there.

But the sad fact is, Professor was tossed out of his own country, and was forced to come to the U.S. Why do you continue to deny the possibility that while he was here in the U.S., that he could have had some "American" students who had the same level of dedication as did his students in the Philippines? That is why I brought up the race thing. I just call things like I see them. Because you continue to deny even the possibility that an "american" (non-filipino) could possibly have the same, if not more dedication then his "Filipino" students, I thought that your stance is culturally biased. You must admit, when seeing things from my viewpoint, that your stance does seem culturally biased, doesn't it? Regardless, you said that it was not a racial thing. So, I will take your word for it and move on.

Now don't think that I was "pissed off" because you were somehow correct. I was angry because I have someone who is not really in the system that I have been dedicated to, or who knows all the facts, making a bunch of accusations, declerations, and assumptions. This would piss off anyone. And I'm sorry if I was rude, but if you go into a situation with out knowing all the facts, you should expect to get spanked. Unfortunatily I was the one to do the spanking. I am glad that there is no hard feelings because of it.

Now, having said that, I might understand where you are coming from. I'm guessing that you've taken your stance because your experience of Modern Arnis and Remy Presas' students has been through maybe a few day seminars, or camps. This is a fair guess, because that was how Remy taught. I am also guessing that you noticed that it seemed like most of the people in the seminars were there to suppliment their training in another art, and were people who only saw him twice a year, if they were lucky. This has probably lead you to believe that Remy's students in the states couldn't possibly have even close to the same understanding of Remy's art as his students who were with him in the Philippines. If I am wrong in my assumptions here, please tell me. If this is correct, however, then I can actually understand why you took the position you did.

Having said that, let me shed some light on a different side that you may not have seen through your few encounters with Remy, or from your connections with other FMArtists. There were a good # of students (although smaller in %) that were greatly dedicated to them. They allocated one weekend a month at least to see him and train, wherever he was. Some of these people are career martial artist. Others (like myself, actually) are not career Martial Artists, but had the benifit of being able to allocate the $$ and time to see him that often during different periods of their life.

Now, lets figure this out, and do some silly math. Let's say someone was able to go to 4 camps in a year (this is not unreasonable, for we usually had 4 in the midwest that I could hit every year if I wanted to, about one for every season). Your usual camp runs Friday, Saturday, and part of Sunday. You train about 12 hours (morning, afternoon, evening sessions) on Fri. and Sat., and maybe only about 6 on Sunday. So that is about 30 hours a camp. Now the Michigan Summer camp started with an afternoon and evening session on Thursday. So for that camp, we are looking at about 38 hours of training. Then let's say that this very dedicated person was able to hit about 6 seminars that year, in addition to the 4 camps. We'll low ball our figure, and say that each seminar was about 6 hours long (some were longer, but that was about average). 6x6=36. None of this is unrealistic; 6 seminars and 4 camps is only 10 times for one year. So, lets add it all up....90 (from the 3 camps)+38(summer camp)+36(seperate seminars)=164 hour of seminar training w/ Professor during that year. I just outlined my basic training schedule (by the way) for a couple years running before the year of Remys death. Considering that I'm nobody special, this isn't unreasonable.

That adds up to be about 3 to 3 1/2 hours of training a week if you had access to a FMA instructor all the time, or at a school. This is just from seminar training alone. Even though it is of a diffrent quality because it is one-on-one training, I only see Manong Ted Buot for my Balintawak training only 1-2 hours a week, and I would consider myself a dedicated Balintawak student.

Now, Let's also figure that this seminar "junkie" has students, or has a Modern Arnis Instructor who is just as dedicated to train with, for about 2 hours a week(as I did until my original instructor retired and I inherited students and trained even more). If you figure this for lets say 48 weeks (minusing any breaks, missed classes, or holidays), then that adds up to be an additional 96 hours of VALID training, even if it is away from Remy. If you add that to my figure above (96+164=260) then that adds up to be 260 hours of training. This averages out to be ruffly 5 to 5 1/2 hours of training in a FMA school every week.

Then let's figure out people who hosted Remy for the seminars. If did what you were supposed to as a host, you gave him nice accomidations, and made sure he was completely taken care of. If you were smart (like I was the one time I had the pleasure of hosting him :p) then you bugged him to train, and maybe got about 4 hours of personal time in.

None of these figures include personal training time, mind you.

Kuntawman, I just detailed out my training schedule, maybe give or take, for a running few years before Professor Passed away. The years prior to this, when I was too young and didn't have the means to take on such a gruelling schedule, I had the benifit of training with a Modern Arnis Black Belt who had this same level of dedication, to help develop my skills when I could only see Remy Presas twice a year. The point is, I am a nobody. I have no title or significant position in Modern Arnis. There are others who had gone to the 2 week camps (12 hour sessions for 2 week straight), and who had professor stay with them for weeks and months at a time, and got a ton of personal training time in. Now that's dedication. Since we talking about "children" taking over the art, there was one of these dedicated students, an american, who addressed Professor as "father" in Taglog, as Professor addressed him as "son." This person, as well as some of these other dedicated people, are todays Modern Arnis leaders.

Now is this the same as having your instructor around in one place at one time. No, it is definatily different, and more sporadic. However, I would argue from my experience that when your not sure when you'll train with your teacher again, or if you know you have to wait a month to see him again, you cherish every moment, more so then if you were training at a school somewhere. So, I wouldn't discount these people who trained in America in this fashion of not having the dedication of his students in the Philippines. That just isn't a fair assessment. Training in this fashion may be different and unique, but it doesn't make these students who had to train like this any less in terms of dedication and skill.

Now after having shed a different light on the subject, maybe now you can see what I am saying. I must also say again that I am not trying to take away from Professors Filipino students, or his children. But I am trying to level the playing field, so to speak. If you choose to deny the facts that I am proposing to you here, then there will be nothing I, or anyone can do to change your mind. I hope, however, since I took the time and care to give you this lengthy explaination, that you will reconsider your position.

Respectfully,
PAUL
:cool:

[norshadow1]

Originally posted by ARNIS PRINCESS
Dr. Barber-

What is your problem?! YOU started this whole bit about organization vs curriculum names, and when Mr. Hartman gives his explanation about his use of the term "kuntao", YOU decide ..there is no need to take this diversionary discussion any further. It is done! Who named you "Organization/Curriculum/Business Card Police"? I also have Mr. Hartman's business cards. Did you happen to mention that his business card also states "International Modern Arnis Federation"? Just because someone puts a logo on their card, does not mean that it is "their" organization. Case in point, I also have a card from Punong Guro Doug Pierre. There are two logos - GrandMaster Remy A. Presas Modern Arnis logo and Modern Arnis Domog logo. Is "GrandMaster Remy A. Presas Modern Arnis" Mr. Pierre's organization - or does he just teach Modern Arnis? Is Modern Arnis Domog an organization? Or is it a school? Or is it just a curriculum? Not very clear - is it?

As for the name of Mr. Hartman's school changing....you are obviously not a businessman. Dissolution of partnerships is a daily occurance. Unless agreed upon, a business name cannot be used after a partnership is dissolved. And I am sure we both can name many businesses that have changed their name for whatever the reason.

It is amusing to see you tell Mr. Hartman ...there is no need to take this diversionary discussion any further. It appeared that Mr. Hartman was only trying to clarify a misstatement on your part. Unfortunately, when the discussion started going against you, you decide it was "diversionary".

I would consider "diversionary" - mentioning YOUR symposium on every thread you can possibly sneak it into.

And speaking of your symposium, you have already lost the Presas Family, Kelly Worden and Dan McConnell. Are you sure you want to risk losing another instructor due to your caustic remarks? I, myself, was looking forward to seeing Datu Worden and the Presas family. I am definitely rethinking my decision to attend the event.

Gee Whiz Arnis Princess,

I understand where both sides of the discussion are coming from and I also understand that there was a very good possibility for mistaking the differences between an organizational name and a school or curriculum name, because the stuff was evolving over a long time. When I lived and trained in Buffalo, I had a similar view to that which Dr. Barber has expressed. Please note that Mr. Hartman, has never claimed to have studied Kuntao, but uses it as a sub-title in his belt structure. Also note that Paul, clearly understood the point that Dr. Barber was making. The matter does need to be closed. Datu Hartman and Dr. Barber will take care it without our help, I am sure.

Now I can't say too much about the symposium in terms of your decision to attend, however, I do think that the man has the right to mention it as often as he wishes. He always stresses the positives and points out where some issues being debated could be discussed and perhaps technical aspects viewed at the Symposium. I understand that some people, including yourself, from what you have posted, are not happy to see these posts, but why are you so focused on the symposium statements? He has posted some great observations and corrected information. Plus he has provided good source material to support his positions. He does not just act on opinions and beliefs alone.

I also have to say that I am impressed with the line-up in spite of the absence of Datu Worden and the Presas Family. I was very impressed with the way Dr. Barber handled the change in plans by Datu Worden and the Presas Family. Both had indicated in that were going to attend and their names were mentioned for months on multiple forums and digests, before the new plans for the Tacoma event were announced. Its a done deal, they will not be there, but the event will go on. Guro Dan McConnell's recent withdrawal was handled with a good deal of grace by Dr. Barber. No ill will or sour grapes were expressed. People are going to do what they need to do. Family and work should always come before a martial arts event. Guro McConnell, put his family first and I applaud him for that decision.

Personally, I am disappointed that Mr. Delaney, Ms. McManus, Dr. Schea, Mr. Gauss, Mr. Smith, Mr. Zwalinski and Mr. Ladis, all declined to attend. On the other hand, I am very pleased to see and support ALL of the instructors who have agreed to be part of the program. These people have my respect and admiration because they are willing to share with any and all people who attend the event. Dr. Barber is merely the organizer, not a presenter, therefore not attending because of him is disrespectful, IMHO, toward the presenters. They should be the focus of this program.

I would guess that Dr. Barber is going to be at the WMAA Camp in May, since he has arranged to go to lunch with Paul, perhaps you should talk with him there, face to face. I doubt that he would avoid you if you were there. He is being supportive of this WMAA event, although he is not a member of that group. It is obvious to me, from what you wrote, that you are close to Datu Hartman, so why wouldn't you support him at the symposium?

Difference of opinion do happen and sometimes the best way to handle them is to leave the people involved alone to resolve the matter. I hope that you will attend the symposium and support the instructors who are giving of their time and expertise.

Lamont

[thekuntawman]

i see your point, and i now understand. one weekend a month, that is good. i dont consider it equal to training where you progress, like beginner classes this year, intermediate next year, advance the year after, etc. but you are getting good supervision even one weekend the month. so for my downing of that, i apologize.

my problem is when people say something bad about the ones who are with remy presas in the past and study full time with him then, and they say, who do you think you are, you missed the last 20 years. if these people are black belters before you started, they are your senior period. in those days, mr presas did not have 5, 6 degrees of belts. so a 2nd degree from 1971 is less than a 4th degree of 1999? what i see is younger inexperience poeple who say they are superior, and lost respect because they learn some new drills that were not around in 1970.

but for the presas children, i still say they have some "insight" a part time student can not get. when you are in a seminar with beginners and intermediate, and you are advance or expert already, you need good one on one, and coaching while you fight against other people in your level. i dont think this happens in a seminar so exchange with people who did get it, is necessary.

it is difficult for me to hear someone point about his own credibilaty, when he is putting down the person in order to build it up. i am not trying to take away from the american students, i am only saying the advantage remy's full time people had over the seminar people can and should be taught to the american students. but you know what? the attitude of the american students is " i dont need the filipino students!"

now of course the new students can show the older ones what they miss in the last 25 years, and i believe that is what the gathering in new york will be for. but i didnt bring it up, because i am only mentioning the issue with the presas kids, it was in many of the recent postings.

[Cruentus]

I can agree that whether you trained in the 60's, 70's, 80's, or 90's, and whether you trained in America, or the Philippines, we can all learn from each other. I also agree with you, then, that we shouldn't invalidate what each person has accomplished.

I am glad we had this discussion, Kuntawman, and that we were able to work this out! :asian:

[ARNIS PRINCESS]

Originally posted by norshadow1
Gee Whiz Arnis Princess,

The matter does need to be closed. Datu Hartman and Dr. Barber will take care it without our help, I am sure.


Lamont

Lamont-

You missed my point. Is it Dr. Barber's job to point out what he feels are inconsistencies in everybody's organizations/schools/curriculums?


BTW, don't you have a curriculum area entitled "kuntao" in the WMAA? Are you aware of the fact that before the WMAA was formed Datu Hartman used the the organizatiion names of "Arnis de Mano - Arnis Kuntao" and later he used "Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Sikaran". If everyone judged his system name as the totality of what he taught and represented could there not be a misunderstanding involving "kuntao"?

Dr. Barber was the one who opened the door on this point. Then, when Mr. Hartman spoke out to clarify the situation, Dr. Barber decided there was no need to take this "diversion" any further. If it was a diversion, then why did Dr. Barber introduce the subject at all? You can't make a statement, then prevent people from stating their counterpoint. The door swings both ways.

I have attended Mr. Hartman's seminars in the past, although I don't get to train as often as I would like. I felt Dr. Barber was unfair with his statements which is why I replied, just as you were defending your friend from what you felt you unfair statements in your opinion.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
Sidebar here for Dan,

I was watching with Kelly a 1984 video yesterday called "T-Town battle of the black belts" (T for Tacoma). There was this thin young guy with lots of hair I mean lots of hair kicking butt in the ring. I said to Kelly whoever that is, is a real firecracker! He laughs and said that is Dan! No way! Yep everybody's changes! Laura Worden was only about 22, she would have been a candidate for the show on TV "are you hot", really foxy! ( she is still good looking but a lady now). She too was kicking butt! Kelly was the Referee tall, skinny not even 30 yet.

Priceless treasures from nearly 20 years ago! Is it time to start a Modern Arnis historical museum or library of old pictures and videos of the Professor and the senior students?, bonding everyone's common respect for the art. Maybe the could be reproduced and sold to support the cost of such library.

Anyway I got a real kick out of it!


Dan Anderson Had Hair? Wow thos Pictures really must have been old. :cool: :rofl:

Sorry Dan, I could not resist. :D

[Rich Parsons]

I can see where there could be confusion.

As Paul's signature states, "No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously..."

Or to miss-interpret your intentions or to read something into nothing. Hence the miss reading the business cards. Why would anyone have there own organization when Remy was alive without his direct approval. Yes Tim lead the Can AM chapter of the IMAF. I see this as a chapter of a larger organization. Not an organization itself.

I believe that Tim knew of the issue of some of the instructors in Michigan (* None I was directly affiliated with *) joining another organization of Arnis or Modern Arnis. Yet, they were then not accepted or welcomed around Remy Presas like they were before. So I do not think that Tim would have risked being ignored or cast out by creating his own organization.

Yes, near the end of GM Presas life Tim talked to Remy and told him he could not continue with the existing IMAF, and he left and formed the WMAA which is an organization not a chapter or a curriculum.

So, I can see where the confusion could have happened, yet I do not think it would have passed a deep pass or inspection if anyone had bothered to look deep into the issue. Datu Hartman would not have risked losing his teacher and someone he had a very personal relationship with.

Just my opinion. Take it leave it. No Big Deal

:asian:

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Dan Anderson Had Hair? Wow those Pictures really must have been old. :cool: :rofl:

Sorry Dan, I could not resist. :D

Rikki (don't lose that number),
I still have hair. What I use to have on my head has migrated to my chest. It's warmer there.

Dan
:rofl:

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by ARNIS PRINCESS
Lamont-

You missed my point. Is it Dr. Barber's job to point out what he feels are inconsistencies in everybody's organizations/schools/curriculums?

Dr. Barber was the one who opened the door on this point. Then, when Mr. Hartman spoke out to clarify the situation, Dr. Barber decided there was no need to take this "diversion" any further. If it was a diversion, then why did Dr. Barber introduce the subject at all? You can't make a statement, then prevent people from stating their counterpoint. The door swings both ways.

I have attended Mr. Hartman's seminars in the past, although I don't get to train as often as I would like. I felt Dr. Barber was unfair with his statements which is why I replied, just as you were defending your friend from what you felt you unfair statements in your opinion.

Hello Arnis Princess and Lamont,

Thank you for your observations and comments, however the matter is closed! IF Tim wants to discuss it on his return to Buffalo next week, he has my phone number, he will call me.

I did acknowlege his Tim's comments, however, his comments do not in any way invalidate the impression that was created by his usage of logos and seveal titles. He knows what what he registered as business names, I know how it all appeared to me.

Tim has some valid points as do I, therefore if the discussion is to continue, he and I will do it as we have since 1987 - one calls the other to clear the air! I doubt that the call is necessary, but it is his choice to make. I have nothing more to say about the matter to anyone else!

Ms. Arnis Princess, also wrote:

"And speaking of your symposium, you have already lost the Presas Family, Kelly Worden and Dan McConnell. Are you sure you want to risk losing another instructor due to your caustic remarks? I, myself, was looking forward to seeing Datu Worden and the Presas family. I am definitely rethinking my decision to attend the event."

Please be advised, that I did not lose anyone! Those people choose to do something different on the weekend of July 11, 12
& 13 of this year. Two of the three provided us with their reasoning for making those choices. I accept and acknowledge their decisions. I have publicly wished them all well. Your implication does not appear to be valid based on the public information provided and I refuse to speculate on anything with regard to their decisions.

If you choose not to attend the Symposium, so be it. That is your decision to make. The planning goes forward and the Symposium will be held, so long as there are at least three instructors ready to work. I have solid committments from four instructors that they will be there regardless of the number of people signed up. All four have promised that they will have some students there as well.

As of today there are 8 pre-paid deposits and 2 paid in full participants. The discussions with possible venders are on going and should be completed within the month. I will bring at least one (1) prototype of each wooden training sword/bolo that one vendor is making specificly for the Symposium to the WMAA Camp in May for people to review. The Symposium is on!

If you choose not to attend, please have a good, peaceful and relaxing weekend.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[norshadow1]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
Quoted by Paul:

"Demetrio had said to me over the phone? He had told me to not worry about all the "successorship" and "Grandmaster" stuff. We are all successors, for we all hold modern arnis in our hearts."

That about sums up MARRPIO'S ideology the way I understand it from them also. They believe there is/was only one Grandmaster and that was Remy Sr.

Since the professor always projected Modern Arnis as the "Art within your Art" how can there be a pure Modern Arnis? With the Professor gone, the art dilutes as he was the evolutionist. When you adapted the art to your present foundation a new flavor evolved. Every Senior has a different flavor of Modern Arnis, are any more correct than the other? Just evolved differently to adapt to your foundation, your physical body limitations, how you were encouraged to develop by the Professor.

It appears Modern Arnis has blended differently across the world, was it ever a "pure" system even when the Professor was alive? I guarantee you, every Datu and Sr, will do the forms and practice the system differently from each other.

Acknowledging what I have just discussed why not accept that we all may be a little different in our interpretation of modern Arnis but we are still in the same family? Share like mature family members not bicker like young siblings.

Pappy Geo

Dear Pappy Geo,

I waited to respond to your post because I wanted to carefully consider everything that you wrote. I have just one disagreement with your stated positions. I am refering to your
assertion that:

"Since the professor always projected Modern Arnis as the "Art within your Art" how can there be a pure Modern Arnis? With the Professor gone, the art dilutes as he was the evolutionist."

My take on this is that 1. Professor Presas was the Founder 2. He built the art around a blending of Crossada, Palis Palis, Balintawak, Shotokan Karate and Judo. (See his 1974 pubication on Modern Arnis.) Therefore Modern Arnis was Never a 'pure' art, it was from the very begining an eccelctic creation suited to his needs and experiences.

With the above in mind, I submit that Modern Arnis can not become a "diluted" art because it was built on the conceptual framework of the art within your art principles. Without these principles there would not be a Modern Arnis as we know it.

There are some very solid adaptations of Modern Arnis that follows the "art within your art" concept, although people have added their own, not Professor's combinations to achieve their personal renderings. The "evolutionists" are us, not the founder!

The real test of the art is in the player, not particularly which direction that one took. The "dilution" is in the individual, not the system or direction. I have seen several very strong and exciting versions of Modern Arnis and I have seen several people who are commited to a strict replication of what Professor taught, including mimicking has accent and jokes! That to me is "dilution"!
It is attmpting to establish a 'tradition based' art inspite of what Professor often said he wanted and definately in contrast to his own actions.

Professor searched out new ideas. He added new innovation to the art. He sought to learn more about Modern Arnis, because it was a work in progress for him. I first saw Professor in 1992 and last saw him in 1999. His art was evolving during that time, therefore, if I follow his lead, I/we should be adding to the art as we know and use it. We should not be trying to "preserve" it in a time capsuale.

"Acknowledging what I have just discussed why not accept that we all may be a little different in our interpretation of modern Arnis but we are still in the same family? Share like mature family members not bicker like young siblings."

I do not have a problem acknowledging what you have posted, nor am I opposed to people having different interpretations regarding the art. In fact I enjoy those differences. The bickering could be stopped almost immediately if the current organization and group leaders would step up, speak out and demonstrate the cooperation that you obviously want to see. I agree with you on that point. So why don't we leave Jeff Delaney and Lisa McManus alone? If they want to make asses of themselves with ridiculous promotions and grand titles, let them! Instead of trying to berate someone who is sponsoring an event that could and should benefit ALL of Modern Arnis, support the man's efforts, even if you (generalized and collective meaning) can't or won't attend.

I believe that attending events sponsored on the East Coast or West Coast or Mid-West or Southeast or Southwest is what we should be doing, based on time, cost, opportunity and travel considerations. We can't go to everything, but we all can probably get to something. We need to put the art and personal growth ahead of organizational affiliations and restrictive instructor loyality - resembling cultish behavior. In order to achieve true cooperative ventures, some egos have to be put aside! I have noticed that at least one member of this forum is going to attend the WMAA Camp, although he is not a member of that organization. It is true that he will be there in part to promote an event, but that could have done by sending a student with flyers.

I also know that he is passing on a Kenpo event, announced in
July 2002, regarding succession being held in Chicago the very same weekend, because we were planning to go there together. I will maintain those plans, but I also understand why he had to change his plans so that he could be supportive of the WMAA Camp.

It is easy to say that we need cooperation, it is much more difficult to see it in action. It is easy to say what people should be doing to achieve cooperation, but in truth, we have to put that into practice as individuals, one by one, because it is the right thing to do, for the art and the 'family'. I don't expect to see you on the East Coast on July 11, 12 & 13, because your instructor is hosting the Presas Family that same weekend; however it would be great to see you mentioning the East Coast event in a positive manner. There is certinly no conflict between the two events given the 3500 miles of seperation.

That is my take on a limited disagreement and a "HUGE" amount of agreement, with what you posted.

Lamont

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
i notice that people who have just a little experience, think they know a lot because they study with master so and so, and challenge even a filipino on the tagalog language! they believe that since they dont see your ad in the magazine you dont know much, and since you dont go around doing seminars and giving out certificates you are not that good. and they argue everything you say that they dont know much about, so you must not know what your talking about.

i am not talking about how people treat me, i am talking about how you guys treat remy presas kids.

i saw them in person, and i can tell you, the skill of those "children" is better than what i seen most of the "updated" modern arnis people have. you think you have to study with someone forever to stay good? TMS--too much seminar. your knowledge is only updated in your training, not re-certificate every year. the son of remy presas can show you a thing, if anything, how to look better swinging your sticks. so what if he doesnt know the new method of tapi tapi. is there art no longer presas style arnis? just because you didnt see tham at any of these seminars?

i think i am illiterate now. i never went back to the 8th grade in more than 20 years. that's bs.

so maybe they didnt study from there dad when you see them. when i teach my daughter and my brother, i do it at home. my brother is far ahead of my students with 2 years experience. i can bet money, that the presas kids got more than 3,4 seminars a year, mr know it all. now maybe he evolve to one direction, and they went another direction, but i am sure mr presas did not leave his kids with poor skills. and so what if the teaching is not the same what you got in those seminars, maybe you might like what they have to show that is new to you. but instead you insult them because you didnt know remy presas kids new arnis at all.

it is also disrepect for the students to show disresepct to the teachers children. do you think he would be pleased with you?

arrogance. no respect. green young lions.

in many filipino styles, and maybe you dont know this from watching video and going to seminar and reading websites, you would have to call presas juinior, gran master presas, like it or not. what do they have to do to get some respect, sell you a black belt certificate?


Dear thekuntawman ,

I am still wondering if I was one of the ones you were commenting about being arrogant and inexperinced and I think thereby rude. The last being my words.

Please, let me know, either here or through PM.
I see you have not been on for about a week at this tme of the post. I hope it finds you in good health and you and yours well.

Yet if have insulted or perceived to insult then I want to know.
:asian: