Cutting

[MBuzzy]

I'm curious how often other Gumdo or other sword school out there practice live cutting?

How often and what do you practice? Bamboo? Straw? Paper? Fruit? Is this a primary part of your curriculum?

[Daniel Sullivan]

We try to do live cutting at least once a month, though that varries depending upon how many cutting mats we have. We use the rolled tatami mats and occasionally bamboo.

Daniel

[cdunn]

We usually cut once every couple of months - common targets are Playdoh balls, especially with kagum, paper, and bamboo. I can't remember cutting straw ever.

Paper is good for seeing the straightness and 'cuttingness' of your cut, while the Playdoh is essentially fruit that you can reassemble and cut again.

[MBuzzy]

We usually cut once every couple of months - common targets are Playdoh balls, especially with kagum, paper, and bamboo. I can't remember cutting straw ever.

Paper is good for seeing the straightness and 'cuttingness' of your cut, while the Playdoh is essentially fruit that you can reassemble and cut again.

Do you cut fruit with Kagums or Saegums?

[cdunn]

Do you cut fruit with Kagums or Saegums?

We do the playdough with Kagums - Only one of us even has a Saegum. I imagine we would do the same with most fruit.

Paper we do with both jingum and mokgum.

[Namii]

I wish we did more of it. We do the papercutting with mokgum maybe once every two months. When we do the demos we cut mats. We have never done the fruit cutting.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Haven't done any cutting for a while and none of my students are ready for any serious cutting. Frankly, I question the value of it beyond just being cool in demonstrations. Kind of like cool breaking, it is visually impressive, and it does reveal the correctness of a cut. But beyond that, I don't see a lot of practical value.

Now, I may be wrong on that, but that is my perspective at this point in time.

Daniel

[terrylamar]

...and it does reveal the correctness of a cut. But beyond that, I don't see a lot of practical value....

To my uneducated thinking, wouldn't this be the main reason for cutting?

[Ken Morgan]

In 12 years I've done it twice.

It's not that difficult, give me 20 minutes and I can teach a newbie how to do it.

Scratches the blade and leave a huge mess in the dojo..... you end up picking up pieces of mats for days.....:)

[Namii]

Yep.
Since I've posted last in this topic, I got a chance to cut mats for the first time about a week or so ago. It showed all kinds of stuff I was doing both right and wrong. I learned ALOT about my technique after having that opportunity

[Daniel Sullivan]

To my uneducated thinking, wouldn't this be the main reason for cutting?
No. The main reason for cutting was so that a sword smith could test the blade.

I can tell you if you are cutting correctly in about five minutes without the need for all of the accessories.

Just as you can tell if your students punch or kick correctly without the need of boards. Students aren't even allowed to use anything but a mokdo (bokken) for long enough that if the correctness of one's cutting required the cutting of mats and bamboo, the student's development would be severely hampered.

Daniel

[Ken Morgan]

I can tell you if you are cutting correctly in about five minutes
Daniel

I would argue Daniel that you could do it after watching one or two swings of the sword. What 10 seconds?

After you’ve trained for a while it is not that difficult to learn to recognise a good cut.

Cutting a target is a good thing for all students to try at least once, because it helps provide that visual of what they are doing, it helps reinforce what they have been learning in class.

Afterwards, go and buy a $15 machete, take it up to the cottage and find a young sapling about an inch in diameter, swing away with a big arc and you’ll go through it like a hot knife through butter. You don’t need a lot of training or some special battle ready blade that has been quenched in the fires of Mordor to be successful at it.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I would argue Daniel that you could do it after watching one or two swings of the sword. What 10 seconds?
Accounting for formalities (bowing in, student being told what to do, etc.), five minutes tops.

Just cuts, yes, about ten seconds.

Daniel

[Chris Parker]

No. The main reason for cutting was so that a sword smith could test the blade.

Speaking from a Japanese perspective, this isn't strictly true. The reasons for cutting would range from simply testing the quality of the blade, in which case only highly skilled cutters were employed to do so, to ensure uniformity in the cuts, and actually test the blade itself. As time went on, it became more and more about cutting to test the skill level of the cutter, ensuring that the cut is clean, not scalloped, moves cleanly through the target, and so on.

The main differences in the two reasons are that if it's done to test the blade, the variation is in the targets of the cuts (whereabouts on a body they would be performed, through the arms, torso, neck etc), and if done to test the swordsman, then the types of cuts would vary (angled down, horizontal, vertical, angled up, single hand), as well as the cutting targets changing (half mats, full mats, bamboo, unwrapped rolled mats, unsupported mats, multiple targets etc).

[terrylamar]

No. The main reason for cutting was so that a sword smith could test the blade.

I can tell you if you are cutting correctly in about five minutes without the need for all of the accessories.

Just as you can tell if your students punch or kick correctly without the need of boards. Students aren't even allowed to use anything but a mokdo (bokken) for long enough that if the correctness of one's cutting required the cutting of mats and bamboo, the student's development would be severely hampered.

Daniel

OK, but I would still argue that the sword user cannot see himself and necessarily tell if he is "cutting" properly. In other words, it would be immediate feedback for the user, when done properly, a confidence builder. Much like breaking boards is a confidence builder. Though, if your technique is not good, you will hurt your hand and/or the board will not break.

[Daniel Sullivan]

OK, but I would still argue that the sword user cannot see himself and necessarily tell if he is "cutting" properly.
Not true. You'll have to trust me on that. :)


In other words, it would be immediate feedback for the user, when done properly, a confidence builder. Much like breaking boards is a confidence builder. Though, if your technique is not good, you will hurt your hand and/or the board will not break.
Yes, it would be immediate feedback. Yes, it is a confidence builder. But unless students are handling sharps from white belt, it is really not useful as a teaching technique. So far as I have seen in sword arts, students practice with a mokgeom, possibly graduating to a kageom at some point well after green belt or equal rank. Usually, a student isn't handling a jingeom, until they are a yudanja, by which point any serious issues with the students cuts should long have been recognized and addressed.

Daniel

[Ken Morgan]

Anyone can learn to cut through a target in very little time at all, it is really unnecessary to put in serious sword training to be able to put a sharp sword through a couple of rolled up mats. Get your tip speed going quick enough on the sword and even a “poor” cut will cut through mats. Swords have always been a popular weapon because even untrained people using almost zero technique will kill people very well. Rwanda is a more recent example.

[cdunn]

OK, but I would still argue that the sword user cannot see himself and necessarily tell if he is "cutting" properly. In other words, it would be immediate feedback for the user, when done properly, a confidence builder. Much like breaking boards is a confidence builder. Though, if your technique is not good, you will hurt your hand and/or the board will not break.

Every stroke of the sword has its own feedback. Part of the training is learning to listen to it. Things change when you have an object in your hand.

[Namii]

Every stroke of the sword has its own feedback. Part of the training is learning to listen to it. Things change when you have an object in your hand.

Agree with you there. When I have it off angle just the slightest bit, the sound is different.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Indeed. There are many things that will give immediate feedback that do not require additional equipment (mats, stands, etc.). These things should be learned long before you are allowed to handle sharps.

Daniel

[Uchinanchu]

Hello all,

Sorry I do not get on here as much as I used to. A bit busy with everything that life tends to throw at you, when you are not looking.
I just wanted to add my two yen pieces worth of advice. No disrespect intended towards anyone or any particular art/style, but from my personal experience, cutting is an integral part of one's training in studying the Japanese sword arts. If you do not cut, you will never know whether or not your technique is up to snuff or not, period.
Yes, it is important to be properly trained in the basics/kata and to have a good/qualified sensei judge your progression so as to determine whether or not you are ready for a shinken or not. At the same time though, alas, not all students (or teachers for that matter) are created equally in terms of skill level or understanding.
On occasion, I have personally witnessed this very thing, when going to the local Budokan to practice cutting with a large group of other interested parties from various dojo and ryuha. The one thing that I noticed time and time again was that the people who practiced kendo, could NOT cut through their logs, nine times out of ten! The kendoka who had the least amount of difficulty in cutting were those who also practiced some form of iaido. The best cuttings were performed by those who's sole practice was Iaido.
Practicing only with a bokuto, is a first step for the beginner in many styles of Iaido. But at the same time, it is but a step. Training with a bokuto is not the same as training with an Iaito, and training with an Iaito is not the same as training with a shinken. A shinai is not even part of the equation, when training to learn how to cut. That is probably why many kendo styles have initiated training kata with iaito into their curriculum these days.
Sorry for the long winded message, but I have one last point to make. Though a sensei does play a deciding factor in when a student can START using a shinken, ultimately, it is up to the individual practitioner to make that transition. Keep in mind that many of the Koryu arts do not have dan rankings, and certainly do not have kyu rankings. They have what is referred to as mennomaki or menkyo kaiden. The dan system is handed out by the federations (ie. Zen Nippon Iaido Renme) that the respective Ryuha belong to. So time in training (not rank) plays a more important role in deciding if one is ready for the live blade or not.
Again, my apologies for my long windedness.

Respectfully yours in the martial arts,
James

[Chris Parker]

Hello all,

Sorry I do not get on here as much as I used to. A bit busy with everything that life tends to throw at you, when you are not looking.
I just wanted to add my two yen pieces worth of advice. No disrespect intended towards anyone or any particular art/style, but from my personal experience, cutting is an integral part of one's training in studying the Japanese sword arts. If you do not cut, you will never know whether or not your technique is up to snuff or not, period.
Yes, it is important to be properly trained in the basics/kata and to have a good/qualified sensei judge your progression so as to determine whether or not you are ready for a shinken or not. At the same time though, alas, not all students (or teachers for that matter) are created equally in terms of skill level or understanding.
On occasion, I have personally witnessed this very thing, when going to the local Budokan to practice cutting with a large group of other interested parties from various dojo and ryuha. The one thing that I noticed time and time again was that the people who practiced kendo, could NOT cut through their logs, nine times out of ten! The kendoka who had the least amount of difficulty in cutting were those who also practiced some form of iaido. The best cuttings were performed by those who's sole practice was Iaido.
Practicing only with a bokuto, is a first step for the beginner in many styles of Iaido. But at the same time, it is but a step. Training with a bokuto is not the same as training with an Iaito, and training with an Iaito is not the same as training with a shinken. A shinai is not even part of the equation, when training to learn how to cut. That is probably why many kendo styles have initiated training kata with iaito into their curriculum these days.
Sorry for the long winded message, but I have one last point to make. Though a sensei does play a deciding factor in when a student can START using a shinken, ultimately, it is up to the individual practitioner to make that transition. Keep in mind that many of the Koryu arts do not have dan rankings, and certainly do not have kyu rankings. They have what is referred to as mennomaki or menkyo kaiden. The dan system is handed out by the federations (ie. Zen Nippon Iaido Renme) that the respective Ryuha belong to. So time in training (not rank) plays a more important role in deciding if one is ready for the live blade or not.
Again, my apologies for my long windedness.

Respectfully yours in the martial arts,
James

(Psst, James... uh, "Korean Sword Arts" section, my friend....)

That said, cutting can be a vital part of some systems, but that doesn't make it integral in all of them. As noted, proper cutting mechanics can be taught without actually cutting targets, and it really doesn't take much skill for a sharp blade to cut through a target, whether the mechanics are perfect or not. And some systems will absolutely use it, others won't. What may be important to remember is that "learning to use a sword" isn't really about learning how to allow a sharp bit of metal to separate objects from themselves, or flesh from itself, it's about learning the strategy and tactics of the system in question, learning it's movements and approach to combat, which happens to use a sword.

I'm with you on the Kendo/Iaido comparrison, as well. Just one little point, though, kata has always been a part of Kendo, however most have only really bothered to learn it when they have to for a grading, rather than actually study them.

Here is a video that was apparently taken before WWII, featuring two of the few men to have been awarded Tenth Dan in Kendo.

kUTkp83vlws

Later the kata were "simplified" so Kendoka wouldn't have too much of an issue learning them.....

[Daniel Sullivan]

(Psst, James... uh, "Korean Sword Arts" section, my friend....)
Hey, I'm just happy to see activity in this section! Since much of what is seen in KSA is often purloined from JSA, his points regarding koryu arts are certainly in place.:)


That said, cutting can be a vital part of some systems, but that doesn't make it integral in all of them. As noted, proper cutting mechanics can be taught without actually cutting targets, and it really doesn't take much skill for a sharp blade to cut through a target, whether the mechanics are perfect or not. And some systems will absolutely use it, others won't. What may be important to remember is that "learning to use a sword" isn't really about learning how to allow a sharp bit of metal to separate objects from themselves, or flesh from itself, it's about learning the strategy and tactics of the system in question, learning it's movements and approach to combat, which happens to use a sword.
You and I are on the same page regarding the place of cutting. Personally, I think that at some point, everyone should do so, even if only once. But cutting stationary targets is kind of a skill unto itself, much as board breaking is, and has dynamics all its own.


I'm with you on the Kendo/Iaido comparrison, as well. Just one little point, though, kata has always been a part of Kendo, however most have only really bothered to learn it when they have to for a grading, rather than actually study them.

Here is a video that was apparently taken before WWII, featuring two of the few men to have been awarded Tenth Dan in Kendo.

kUTkp83vlws

Later the kata were "simplified" so Kendoka wouldn't have too much of an issue learning them.....
I have seen this video. The practice of modern kendo seems, from my exposure, to be almost entirely focused on shiai. Neither good nor bad, but while effort has gone into maintaining a one to one correlation between a strike with the shinai and a cut with a sword, there is no getting around that kendo is practiced using a longer implement which is straight rather than curved. Though the shinai is meant to represent a sword, in terms of what you are doing, a shinai handles more like a cane than a sword.

Daniel