Is teaching for free a bad idea?

[geezer]

I'm starting a new Escrima class. So far it's just a few people and most of them are damn near broke. We work out at a park and I have plenty of equipment, I have no overhead and I don't care about the money. But I do care about commitment. On the one hand, my instructor isn't charging me a penny, but I've known him for 25 years (once he was my student in another art) and I do my best to find ways to show my appreciation (one of which is starting this class). On the other hand, it's been my experience that the typical student values what they pay for. If I don't demand a minimal cash commitment, they drift away after the novelty wears off. What do you think?

[harlan]

Well...are you looking for 'typical' students?

Let the chaff fall away.

[terryl965]

The only problem is this serious people will not be in that class, they are casual students. If you want serious student charge something, if the money is not an issue take what you make and buy can goods and drop it off at your local food bank or use it to better the community you live in by sponsoring some childern for sports activities. A trust fund could be set up for the childern hospital to help buy coloring books and toys for the patience. Also go to the local Senior center and buy them some things they could use like toilitees and such. There is always a way to give back and see have people see value in what you do. Just let them know from the get go to little you charge per month will be going for this and that. Best of Luck.

[harlan]

What constitutes a 'serious student'?

[exile]

We operate through the Columbus Rec Center network, which entails that we don't charge anything (beyond stuff like boards for breaking, testing fees and so on). I don't think it hurts us, but yes, if we were charging something we might see a bit more commitment from students. Since it's not an option for us, there's no point in our worrying about it. But I do wonder every so often if people would stick with it more if we were charging them something up front...

[Grenadier]

Geezer,

You're actually correct, that it may very well take the charging of tuition to get people going.

I know it sounds like a salesman's point of view, but when it comes down to it, people will perceive a value associated with your program. Even if your program is one that offers high quality instruction, there are always going to be a good number of people (the bulk of them, in fact) who are going to perceive it as not having a high value, simply because they don't see any cost justification.

I've seen many schools that have had excellent teachers, do poorly in terms of business, simply because they weren't charging enough (under 50 / month). In your customers' minds, they are going to value something *because* they paid for it.

On the other side of the coin, I've seen many a school that had mediocre to poor instruction, yet, were charging 100+ / month. The key here, is that the students / customers, in their minds, were getting their money's worth out of what the school offered. If they perceive a value, then they'll pay for it.

The way I see it, charge what you think the market will bear. If that means that you charge your poor students 20 / month, then so be it. If they really like the training, then they'll make themselves pay for it. If not, they probably would have quit sooner, rather than later.

You'll still probably be teaching the same number of students, and at the same time, end up with some more $$$ in your pocket.

[pesilat]

Charging money does turn away the "looky-loos" but it can also turn away people who would be serious and dedicated students.

The problem is that not charging money can turn people away, too.

Some people won't take you seriously as an instructor if you don't charge money.

Also, charging no money can attract "looky-loos" - but I've never found that to be much of a problem because they usually move on once they realize that it actually takes work and that there is no magic pill to become [insert favorite MA icon] overnight.

An instructor I highly respect told me once, "What I teach is priceless - I can't put a price on it by charging for it - but my time and effort is worth something. That's what I charge for."

So the bottom line is what's it worth to you? You don't have to calculate it in monetary terms. Whatever you get from it - your own training time, experience teaching, hanging out with friend doing something you enjoy, whatever; is it worth the time/effort you put into the teaching?

You're investing time/effort. If you feel the return on that investment is worthwhile then don't worry about it. If you don't feel the return is worthwhile then charge whatever you need to charge to make it worthwhile - and remember that what you charge doesn't have to be monetary either - it can be barter.

Mike

[championmarius]

Its a tough call to make. If you don't need the cash, but would like some commitment, have them pledge, or donate, money to a charitable organization or cause in return for services rendered...
Or charge a fee, with the knowledge that all funds gathered will be used to pay for a group trip to a seminar or martial vacation in the future. If they pay towards it, they have incentive to continue training until the trip, to get their money's worth...

[Grenadier]

In the past, the schools where I have taught at, have awarded scholarships to those who are in bad financial straits. We allowed them to train without charging them tuition, just to let them enjoy the martial arts. We gave them the gi for free, but they would still have to pay for exams at a reduced cost, though.

While the idea was a noble one, it also failed to produce any students who stuck around for the long term. Most of these "scholarship students," would quit shortly after joining (within a month), and those who stuck around for more than a month, would usually quit at any sign of having to put forth any amount of money, even if it were for a small amount.

I can still remember one particular scholarship student, who had decided to play some tackle football with his buddies after Karate classes, while wearing his gi. Those gi's were designed to be able to hold up to a decent amount of wear and tear, such as the stresses coming from basic grappling moves, but they were NOT meant to serve the same purpose as a football jersey.

Anyways, this student then said "can you give me a new gi?" I told him that I would allow him to purchase one from us at *our* cost, which would have been about 17 bucks at the time. At that time, he said "forget it" and never came back.

Another scholarship student stuck around for 3 months. So, I gave her an exam form to fill out. Instead of charging the usual 30 dollars for an exam, I crossed out the 30 and replaced it with "15" to let her have a discount. That's when the mother came up to me and said that her daughter was "not ready." It was a load of crap, of course, since her daughter was actually a good student, and ahead of the others by a good bit. I tried to tell her that there's no point in holding her back, since there's nothing more for her to learn at the white belt level.

The mother then asked if I could just teach her daughter the more advanced techniques, without making her take the test. I told her that I couldn't do that. She then said "I don't have the money, and can't afford the exam."

She grabbed her daughter, and left in a huff. She even ended up putting the gi that we gave her daughter (for free) in the consignment shop. A few months after that, I ran into her at the store, and saw her shopping cart loaded with many bottles of Mad Dog 20/20 malt beverages and several packages of Pabst Blue Ribbon beer. I estimate that the value of the bottled / canned hangover liquids to be easily 40 dollars, if not more.

To me, this says that the mother perceived no value in the martial arts program that she was given for free, and somehow got it in her mind, that free things are cheap in terms of actual value. If she places the value of Mad Dog 20/20 and PBR beer above the value of the martial arts, then she would have yanked her kid out sooner or later, even if I gave her a free exam.

Is this to say that ALL scholarship students are bad news? Of course not. There may very well be a hidden gem that will turn into a true blessing for your dojo. If anything, the above mentioned girl could have been a truly good student, if it weren't for the parents.

Unfortunately, though, in my experiences, those hidden gems are very, very rare...

[arnisador]

I'm starting a new Escrima class.

Great! Thanks for helping spread the FMA.


I don't care about the money. But I do care about commitment.[...]On the other hand, it's been my experience that the typical student values what they pay for. If I don't demand a minimal cash commitment, they drift away after the novelty wears off. What do you think?


That has been my experience. You have to charge at least a token amount or they won't stay. We have to disabuse ourselves of the notion that most of our students are like us--dedicated lovers of the arts. Until they become that, charging is mandatory. I've learned the hard way that being a "nice guy" just gets you students who aren't invested in the study of the art.

[Brian S]

I don't agree with the people saying you have to or need to charge.

I study goju and have for free since I was 17yrs old(I'm 34). I had five serious students for more than five years that earned blackbelt and three of them still come around. We have had three students for the last four years that are brownbelts and are serious students.

I have also found it useful that I can pick who I teach. Some people just need to be run off imo.

People pitch in for belts, certs, and t shirts when asked and are usually closer than a normal dojo in my opinion.

Nothing wrong with not charging. You don't need to get money to find 'serious students'.

[Zeno]

The pros to no-charge are that you're offering self-protection techniques to ANY who may desire to learn it. That itself is a great service to the community.

The way I see it, is that you can't know if you're committed to something without trying it. I doubt you're going to meet someone committed to you and your teaching without having first met and trained at least a little with you. What I'm saying here is, regardless to whether or not you charge your students, you're going to find those who fall away from you, and those who stick with you.

What no-charge also makes easier is a second chance for students who didn't stick with it. Maybe a couple months down the road they want to give it another shot? It's not like they have to pay, so why not? It makes going back easier.

There are plenty of committed people in the world that don't have much money. With current gas prices, that's pretty much everyone now. ;)

However, you also have to figure of the toll it may take on you. Though you have few students now, people tend to flock to things that are free. You're sure to bump into enough "window shopper" students, who just go for a bit of a sample. The number of students you have is surely going to boost significantly. It may get a bit overwhelming at times, and you may need some extra help from another qualified Escrima instructor, who you may have to hire.

Money could help you expand.

It's great that you don't care about the money. However, if you care about your students and your teaching influence, then you may need to charge. That doesn't mean you have to go outrageously high priced. You could just do a monthly plan, where no one's wallets are taking too much of a hit. All proceeds could go to the growth of your practice.

If you charged, you could toy with it a little, offering % cuts from monthly tuition to those who bring in new members or just help you with your cause (like hanging up flyers, business cards, etc).

It will allow you to take in a higher percentage of students with what many could consider an "honest effort". You can make it so your classes do cost something, but it isn't much, and could be even less. Tell your students of the opportunities for lower tuition. Allow them to take pride in your service to them. The students/practitioners are the life of any martial art. Let it be contagious.

Either path you choose, I wish you the best of luck.

[Pacificshore]

I'm starting a new Escrima class. So far it's just a few people and most of them are damn near broke. We work out at a park and I have plenty of equipment, I have no overhead and I don't care about the money. But I do care about commitment. On the one hand, my instructor isn't charging me a penny, but I've known him for 25 years (once he was my student in another art) and I do my best to find ways to show my appreciation (one of which is starting this class). On the other hand, it's been my experience that the typical student values what they pay for. If I don't demand a minimal cash commitment, they drift away after the novelty wears off. What do you think?
I agree with your assessment as that has happened to me in the past. I've found that there are really very few people out there that understand the true value of what an instructor is teaching them when it is free. We are raised to think more along the lines of something of value if there is a cost to it, so why not start by having them pay a nominal daily fee, or maybe charge them quarterly so that they are committed for a longer haul, and then hopefully they have a better understanding of the value of their training.

[Nolerama]

A few months after that, I ran into her at the store, and saw her shopping cart loaded with many bottles of Mad Dog 20/20 malt beverages and several packages of Pabst Blue Ribbon beer. I estimate that the value of the bottled / canned hangover liquids to be easily 40 dollars, if not more.

That's a LOT of PBR!

[SageGhost83]

I'm starting a new Escrima class. So far it's just a few people and most of them are damn near broke. We work out at a park and I have plenty of equipment, I have no overhead and I don't care about the money. But I do care about commitment. On the one hand, my instructor isn't charging me a penny, but I've known him for 25 years (once he was my student in another art) and I do my best to find ways to show my appreciation (one of which is starting this class). On the other hand, it's been my experience that the typical student values what they pay for. If I don't demand a minimal cash commitment, they drift away after the novelty wears off. What do you think?

Well, if they are truly interested in what you are teaching and they want to stick with it, then they are going to do that regardless of if they are paying or not. The same is true if they are not committed - they will drift away even if they are paying because they will feel that the money that they spend on your class is better spent on something else that interests them. So paying is not a sure sign of long term committment, and if they are only showing up because they payed then they are probably not very motivated to begin with. It is awesome that you train at a park and don't have to worry about overhead. The dojo is wherever you make it :supcool:.

[IcemanSK]

I tend to agree that charging something makes a difference in the attention level of a student. I have a student who is my neighbor. He started training under me when he suggested he do some work for me in trade for classes. It's worked out well for us both. He worries that I'm getting the short end of the stick.

[Deaf Smith]

Teaching for free. What a concept! I realize this is America, and free enterprise is one of the founding principles, but teaching for free. Hmmm.

I have a form of TB. As in True Believer. The martial arts for me is, well, one of my advocations as well as recreations. My profession is computers. It's were the dough is and I tend to go where it is (not only CICS/COBOL/JES2/VSAM but ASP.NET/VB.NET/SQL, and now VM/VS to, yes old dogs can learn new tricks.)

So I can teach basicly for free. Note I said basicly cause a wise person charges enough to pay of incidentals as well as have a very good libility release.

When I had my own school I did not charge a high price and those who could not afford were given duties to compensate (like sweeping the floors, cleaning the bathrooms, etc..) And the day I open a new one, after I retire, it will be the same. And I'm a hard task master.

What are the advantages of teaching for free?

Well, if you don't like the students attitude, you can say 'bye' real easy. Also you can demand more and push the students harder as you don't worry about them quitting and hurting your bottom line. Also, you call for test when YOU think they are ready, not when the bills come due.

Disadvantages? You don't earn your living doing this, so you have better have a good living doing something else cause it takes up many an evening! Make sure you have a very understanding wife!!!

For me, teaching for free is the way to go. But for others that have a family to feed, I can see it would not be feasible.

Deaf

[jks9199]

I'm starting a new Escrima class. So far it's just a few people and most of them are damn near broke. We work out at a park and I have plenty of equipment, I have no overhead and I don't care about the money. But I do care about commitment. On the one hand, my instructor isn't charging me a penny, but I've known him for 25 years (once he was my student in another art) and I do my best to find ways to show my appreciation (one of which is starting this class). On the other hand, it's been my experience that the typical student values what they pay for. If I don't demand a minimal cash commitment, they drift away after the novelty wears off. What do you think?


The only problem is this serious people will not be in that class, they are casual students. If you want serious student charge something, if the money is not an issue take what you make and buy can goods and drop it off at your local food bank or use it to better the community you live in by sponsoring some childern for sports activities. A trust fund could be set up for the childern hospital to help buy coloring books and toys for the patience. Also go to the local Senior center and buy them some things they could use like toilitees and such. There is always a way to give back and see have people see value in what you do. Just let them know from the get go to little you charge per month will be going for this and that. Best of Luck.


I tend to agree that charging something makes a difference in the attention level of a student. I have a student who is my neighbor. He started training under me when he suggested he do some work for me in trade for classes. It's worked out well for us both. He worries that I'm getting the short end of the stick.

I have found that, as a general rule, students who train without making some form of payment don't appreciate what they're getting. It may be something about the Western Culture, but people seem to decide something is valuable only if they pay for it. People also seem to take greater pride and ownership in something they had to purchase or work for... Ever see someone who never would have given a second thought to abusing someone else's property, who suddenly demands that you handle things with kid gloves when they buy it.

But that doesn't mean that payment must be monetary... You can find various ways to allow students who can't pay cash (or if you don't want money...) to pay for their training, as others have described in examples above.

One thing that I've noticed is that many times students take for granted the set up and preparation involved in clinics or classes, for example... An easy way to "pay" for your training is to help prep the facility.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think you have to figure out what works best for you. Both way's can work. For myself I charge but it is simply to maintain the Training Hall and to aid in Research and Development. Due to this fact that my expenses are low I have great leeway in who I keep on as a student. I am in the end only interested in training quality people. My book, dvd business keeps everything else rolling.

People do appreciate it more when they pay for something. Otherwise quite often it just does not mean as much.

However find what works for you based on your individual needs but think it through carefully. Good luck!

[YoungMan]

I would not teach for free for a couple of reasons. First, as stated, people tend to value more what they pay for. In other words, many think if its free, it can't be any good. After all, what you get for free in this country is often the worst of the lot.
Second, my knowledge and skill are worth something. That doesn't mean gouge people, but charge a fair price for what you have to offer. I can't charge the same price as someone with a fully equipped gym, but I can charge what the local economy will support. It's called capitalism. And since I don't make my living teaching Taekwondo, I also have a great deal of flexibility in whom to teach and how (legal liabilities aside).

[harlan]

Just to be clear: people are stating that their knowledge and time are worth something, and want to ensure students will stay by charging them money.

As a student...don't you think MY time is worth something? Okay...I pay you for your time and attention and knowledge. I hope you didn't want more...like respect, or gratitude or good attendance or long term committment to your school or art. After all...you get compensated for the time...whether or not a student shows up.

And another thing...just be clear that YOU, as an instructor don't 'get' anything from your students other than cash. Because if you need training partners to keep your skills sharp, or long term students that advance to the point that YOU can work your art...then you are taking without compensating. How do you even THAT out?

[YoungMan]

Easy. I teach students. I practice with fellow instructors and black belts. And I teach students a martial art not just a set of techniques.

[Brian S]

That's only 'easy' if you have all of those.

[harlan]

Not directed at you Youngman, but to follow up on your post for clarification:

Do teachers see their 'student's as not contributing to their own (the teacher) training? Especially after 'bringing them along' for 5, 10, 15 plus years?

[Brian S]

I learned more in the first year of teaching from my students than from the years before.

Students do give back, whether they know it or not.

[MJS]

I'm starting a new Escrima class. So far it's just a few people and most of them are damn near broke. We work out at a park and I have plenty of equipment, I have no overhead and I don't care about the money. But I do care about commitment. On the one hand, my instructor isn't charging me a penny, but I've known him for 25 years (once he was my student in another art) and I do my best to find ways to show my appreciation (one of which is starting this class). On the other hand, it's been my experience that the typical student values what they pay for. If I don't demand a minimal cash commitment, they drift away after the novelty wears off. What do you think?

Whether or not you charge may not necessarily mean that you will retain students. If they're going to leave, they're going to leave. As for teaching for free...I see nothing wrong with it. :) IMHO, there comes a time when we should give something back. Now, it could be said that you're giving back by teaching for money, and yes, that is true. But in this case, you're doing something nice for people who can't afford much. Their 'payment' IMO would be their dedication to you, and the lessons that you teach. :)

Good job! :)

Mike

[MJS]

There was talk about what is a serious student. Someone who is serious is, IMHO, someone who dedicates themselves to the training. Its very possible that there're many people in the world who are serious and would love to train, but perhaps havent found the right school. Maybe the art they're looking for isn't offered in a commercial location. And as the OP said, maybe they'd love to train, but can't afford it.

Another way of charging someone could fall into another category. Instead of giving cash, perhaps having some agreement to do something for the community. I've seen many students fall short in a school, and the instructor has them help to clean the school, do office work, etc. So, if you're teaching in a park, there is no school to clean, but what about the park? I don't know about anyone else, but nowadays, you can't walk anywhere without seeing garbage tossed on the ground. After the workout, grab a garbage bag, walk thru the park and pick up trash. Donate your time to some form of community service.

In the end, everyone walks away with a positive experience. :)

Mike

[jks9199]

Just to be clear: people are stating that their knowledge and time are worth something, and want to ensure students will stay by charging them money.

As a student...don't you think MY time is worth something? Okay...I pay you for your time and attention and knowledge. I hope you didn't want more...like respect, or gratitude or good attendance or long term committment to your school or art. After all...you get compensated for the time...whether or not a student shows up.

And another thing...just be clear that YOU, as an instructor don't 'get' anything from your students other than cash. Because if you need training partners to keep your skills sharp, or long term students that advance to the point that YOU can work your art...then you are taking without compensating. How do you even THAT out?
You've got a valid point, but it seems like you've buried it under a posture of entitlement and demand.

This thread is about charging students for the training provided. Sadly, many to most of us have found that too many students squander what we give them if they don't have to pay for it in some fashion. Let's leave the true professional instructors off the table for the moment; obviously, they must successfully balance the demands of the market with their desire to teach, and it ain't easy. The instructors like me who have full time jobs still have costs... Some of us can absorb the cost of instruction (perhaps rent, insurance, equipment, etc.) -- and some of us accept that it's going to be a bit of a financial burden. Hopefully, the burden is reasonable in light of what we get out of teaching. So, we do expect students to contribute to the costs of their training in some fashion, instead of simply "giving it away."

To expand on that a little -- I only offer one formal class a week. My experience has been that if I offer more classes, no matter how much the students scream for more classes, they don't show up. They start making excuses... But with one class, they value that night and that time and don't miss it. Draw what conclusions you wish.

But, as I said -- you do have a point. It IS a two way street. I've seen people who teach solely to have a pile of sparring partners... Sometimes, they end up with a few good students, but that's not their purpose. If it's clear that's what they're doing (like running a gym as a pro or semi-pro fighter), no problem. That's honest. And, in truth, that's what the instructor owes the student.

Honesty. Honestly and fairly offer the art to the student. Honestly encourage and teach them. My goal is for every student to make black belt -- but the reality is that some never will achieve a black belt. If, as a teacher, you're honest with the students, I find that they'll in turn be honest with you, and give you their best efforts. I do expect my students to teach me... because, in breaking things down, and sharing them with students, I learn more about my art. I want my students to be honest in sparring with me; try to hit me, don't simply assume that "the teacher is too good to be hit."

Respect? I expect my students to respect the fact that I'm the teacher, in that training hall. If they don't respect me -- they shouldn't be training with me. I expect them to respect those I bring in as guests, because they respect me. And I respect the students in return. I respect their time and their effort and their dedication -- because without students an art will die.

The biggest problem I have with your post is that you see a purely mercantile approach; you pay your dollar, you get your training. Teaching anything is never successful as a purely mercantile proposition like that. I can deliver you a package for $x. I can build you bookshelf or cabinet for $y, and simply give it to you. I can't give you knowledge in the same manner. The sharing of knowledge is a two-way proposition; there's no way that I won't get something back from teaching you, beyond the cash. You'll ask a question that makes me realize something new; you'll be moving as my opponent, and I will get the practice and chance to see things. Even the most sterile of learning environments, like writing a book or preparing a videotaped lecture, forces me to re-examine what I'm doing, and figure out how to explain it.

Let me use an example from the class I taught last week. I was working my students on their front kicks, with everyone taking turns holding the pads. While teaching, I took turns with the students kicking and holding pads. Holding the pad, I could feel things about their technique -- just like they could feel things when I kicked the pad they held. But I also had to watch them... Well, along the way, we noticed that something was off in MY kicks! It took a couple of us looking, and it was a problem that several of the students were encountering, as well. We solved it -- and we all learned (or rediscovered) a piece of the kick. Did they get what they paid for? Did I get more than money in return for teaching? Was it an unfair transaction?

[harlan]

I thought the thread was about about asking for payment in order to ensure students would value the training, and stick around for their money's worth. I thought I read into it that the HOPE was that by tricking students to stick it out long enough to realize some benefit from the training.

My previous posts were an attempt to point out some other aspects. I personally don't have a problem with people that charge...but either way...the expectations from both sides should be clear. As you say...honesty. And that means honesty with one's self as well...on what a teacher gets as well as gives. I kinda think each student, teacher, and relationship can be so different that the decision whether or not to charge just muddies the water.

[cfr]

Greetings Geezer. I currently have 3 instructors that teach me for free in various styles. You know one of them, and I have been with him for the least amount of time. My commitment level is high enough with two out of the three of them to show up consistantly week after week and train to my max potential, even in 110 + degree weather. It is also high enough to do all of this, knowing that none of them has any sort of ranking system, so I will never obtain a black belt or anything like it with any of them.

As you are aware, I have been on the fence with the 3rd teacher/ style as I'm just not sure it's for me (really depends on the day you ask me), and have been in question since I began. However, I honestly don't think I would have a higher commitment level if I was paying $$$.

I cant tell you what you should be doing, but can tell you my experience as a non paying student.

[kidswarrior]

I think as Kris Wilder says, Eventually every student leaves. The question of how long we keep them, and whether a 'commitment' on their part of some kind, a sacrifice if you will (money, whatever), helps or hurts, has got to be an individual instructor's decision.

I've taught MA 3 1/2 years and never charged--but as exile, I'm in a situation where I can't even if I wanted to (19 years as public HS teacher, tho). Soon, however, will be opening a second location/group, and am still struggling with whether to charge or not. If I do, things like business license, taxes, etc. come into play. That's fine for those who do this for a living, but I have a career already, and those things would be one more thing to eat up my already little time off.

One thing I've toyed with, is having younger (teen) students do service in the community to offset their hours. Maybe a little extra work for me, but may also send the message I'm really after. Anyway, this has turned into a good thread on a topic that's come up before. :bangahead:

[Shicomm]

If you can do it then why not ?
Commitment is not something that can be measured in paying for classes or for something else imho.

There really are good people out there that really want to learn and have a good heart but just don't have the cash to access regular teaching.

If i would be in the run to teach somebody i would want to know him / her .
When that person would be on a very low income but good hearted and willing to learn i would help out where possible .

Sharing can be such a good thing !

[Imua Kuntao]

Yes, a very bad idea

[Live True]

I can only offer the experience of a student who has (sorta) been taking karate classes for free. I say (sorta) because I pay a high gym membership to be able to take this "free" class. I searched hard for a non-popcorn dojo where I would learn the skills, history, and application of the chosen art. What I chose is considered a "hobby" dojo because our instructors train for the love of what they do and as an aside to thier day jobs. I drive an hour to get to classes, and the gym fee is high...but my sensei and coaches receive no fees, except incidentals to cover belts ang gi's.

Recently, we were kicked out of the commercial gym where we train because our instructors refused to go commercial and charge for thier training. Know what happened? The 9 regular students are all looking at thier local schools, churches, restaurants, community centers, parks, etc. in order to continue training. We're training one on one and privately when we can 't meet as a class! We will find a way to train and a place to train, because we love what we do.

It's the training and the community that have bound us together, not any fee we pay. Do we all attend every class. No. Do we train and practice privately. DEFINATELY. Do we take our training seriously. OH YES.

Several of us, myself included, have some financial constraints, and the "free" training has allowed us to discover a new joy in our lives (and some good things about ourselves). Myself, I am 5 months pregnant and continue to practice and train (although at some slower speeds, currently).

IMHO, charging doesn't get your dedicated students....good teaching and chance play just as much a part in that ultimate synergy of meetings and joinings.

[TheOriginalName]

Hi there,

I know it's not exactly the same but i do math tutoring free of charge for the same reason, not all people have a disposable income and money isn't a huge problem for me.

But i do require commitment. If a student hasn't done the set homework during the week without a good excuse will result in me packing up and leaving. It might seem harsh but they learn very quickly that simply because i'm "cheap" doesn't mean i'm "soft".

So perhaps a similar approach could be taken - if you don't turn up for a week then you don't come back at all......??

Just a thought.

[jks9199]

I don't think anyone has suggested that the only way to pay for classes is to write a check or fork over greebbacks.

But, if you value what you're getting, you should be doing something to pay for it. That something begins with training hard... but it also may include cleaning the floor, setting up the training area, or other methods of "payment." The other night, I look up and see two students watching as the other instructor is preparing the facility. I made a pointed comment that at least one of them should perhaps help...

[geezer]

And another thing...just be clear that YOU, as an instructor don't 'get' anything from your students other than cash. Because if you need training partners to keep your skills sharp, or long term students that advance to the point that YOU can work your art...then you are taking without compensating. How do you even THAT out?

This is an excellent point. And, as jks also pointed out, we do get a lot in return from our students. So, even if I don't charge money, I am still getting some compensation for my instruction and I need to consider that in the equation. 1. I am working on building up a set of training partners. 2. I am improving my basics through instruction (as jks noted). 3. Having a class forces me to commit to regular training. 4. If the class grows, I will have a sufficient student base to pay to bring in some "heavy hitters" for seminars and improve my own skills. 5. And, if enough students pay cash to cover my own training debts, maybe my wife will get off my back about the money I blow on the martial arts!!!

[Martial Arts Training]

Depends on the quality of instruction. If you can give your students their money's worth, then go ahead and charge, however, if this is a casual thing, then I think charging would turn them away.

[AJPerry]

I have to say... CHARGE for your lessons.

As others have said you can put the money towards new equipment, your local community or even a couple of social gatherings for the students to reward them for training with you.

the main reason I believe in charging for lessons is that it does get rid of the hobby people, the time wasters that try it for a week or two and decide it's too much effort.

i agree with free introductory lssons to guage interest but if you never ask for a commitment then you will be punishing your good students by wasting your time with samplers.

I know it doesn't cost you much to entertain these testers but you are devalueing your time and being disrespectful to the people that turn up for every lesson and truely want to learn from you. Show your serious students the respect they deserve and get your new students to commit to you before you share your precious time with them.

[AIKIKENJITSU]

I'm starting a new Escrima class. So far it's just a few people and most of them are damn near broke. We work out at a park and I have plenty of equipment, I have no overhead and I don't care about the money. But I do care about commitment. On the one hand, my instructor isn't charging me a penny, but I've known him for 25 years (once he was my student in another art) and I do my best to find ways to show my appreciation (one of which is starting this class). On the other hand, it's been my experience that the typical student values what they pay for. If I don't demand a minimal cash commitment, they drift away after the novelty wears off. What do you think?
I've been teaching off and on for over thrity years. If you don't charge, you will easily get students who are curious and you may get someone who likes what you teach and stays for a long period. But if you charge, they may not have the money. So if you don't need the money, then why charge? I teach for the city, and I can use the money, I admit. But the biggest thing is that you as an instructor have to be in that class every teaching day, where the students come and go when they want to. Can you handle that? Also, you live with frustration of teaching a student great material, only to see him drop out after 8 months. There are very few dedicated students. I teach only a few adults and I have one up to black belt (studying 1st degree) and two are up to brown. It's nice, buy they only come when they want to.
To have a complete class you should shoot for at least 10-15 students. If you don't charge, that should be easy. But after all these years, I still love teaching. Good luck!

[harlan]

I've yet to see a valid survey that shows a correlation between charging and committment. To me, charging is no different than offering rank...it's viewed as some kind of incentive to keep students. But it can't last, and sooner or later the student that doesn't committ is going to leave...but no one seems to have a problem with teaching someone for 3-5 years, or BB level, and then seeing them leave? I don't think there is some kind of magical number of months or years that has to occur before one has a 'committed' or dedicated student.

What is the problem with the idea of 'weeding out' students from the very beginning...instead of trying to keep the ones that may quit anyway?

[The Boar Man]

I've been on the receiving end of free lessons (for several years) and given free lessons trying to bring up a workout partner and to try and in some way duplicate what my instructor had (in providing us with free lessons and workout space). Likewise I also have charged next to nothing ($5.00 for lessons about 1 1/2-2 hours long) for private and semi private lessons. And I have charged higher rates as well. And I've taught for the YMCA and City Rec. centers as well as attended commercial schools over the years. So here is my .02 cents FWIW.

1) Having the student pay for lessons isn't shafting the student, nor will it make them committ to staying with you for years either. Although it is a GENERAL principle that if people have to work or pay for something they will see it as an investment and value it more. If people get something for free than often times they will not value it as highly as if they were paying for it. I speak from experience here with my free lessons. I didn't realize how good we had things untill I was out in the real world (after relocating) and looked for instruction.

2) The people who come and go will come and go if you offer them lessons for free or not. And since this is the case I wouldn't base my teaching prices on them. I wouldn't try and hold onto people who won't be there a year from now by not charging them. Instead I would charge and IF you have someone who is a committed student or someone who has financial needs not being met than you have the right to teach them for free or at a reduced rate. No one says you must charge everyone, you're the teacher it's your class.

3) In my instructor's dojo we were like family, he chose people who he invited to train over at his house. We came and worked out and it was great. But he didn't open it up to anyone, it was his choice and he offered lessons to people that he knew. Now being in the martial arts for many years and teaching and such he had a large group of contacts (previous students, other instructors etc. etc.) from which to draw from. This is key because he didn't have the hanger ons the wanna bees etc. etc. come to his workouts and drag things down.

And where I was lead to believe that everyone would want to workout like what I had with my instructor and to develop that same kind of family/workout group I offered low fees (free instruction to some) and tried to duplicate what we had it was a bitter disapointment to say the least. Well I should say I thought everyone would jump at the chance to have something like I had, but it was not to be.

I see nothing wrong with not charging for class, however I see nothing wrong with charging for class as well.

Mark

[The Boar Man]

Now I'll list why I would charge for lessons

1) Undoubtbly you have spent money on your lessons in the past and I see nothing wrong with charging for you teaching what you have paid to learn.

2) If you are having a class than you are committing to a time and a place for the lessons, even if you aren't charging than you are supposed to be there. So if you set up classes on a Saturday and you are asked to work OT then to me you still show up and that is your committment to your students. Now you might show up and no one is there, if you aren't charging anything it is easy for your committment to your students to start to turn since they have cost you money (by you turning down the OT). However if you have charged than it is a simple business decesion, I must go because I have accepted money and am being compensated for my time (even if no one shows up).

I have turned down OT for the Saturday when I was suppposed to teach ($5.00 a lesson period) and not have people show up. I was out gas, time, and the OT money I could have made at work. Several $100.00's lost. I also turned down OT for a free private lesson with a friend who didn't show because he needed to get his hair trimed (he was also a long time martial artist).

3) Your time away from family and or work is vaulable. Again if you set up classes and the wife/girlfriend/son or daughter has something going on that you should or want to be at you need to make arrangements to have someone cover your class, cancel them, or blow off the family. It is hard to justify blowing off family with "well I've got to teach" when you not being compensated for it. Also it makes it easier for arguements to start about how you value your art more than your family etc. etc. BEEN HERE done that.

And looking back on it if the students aren't going to show or aren't going to stick around forever than why put them a head of your family?

4) If you are really teaching students and you are the only one there with a student guess who is the UKE? That's right BEEN HERE done that too. So bringing up the student teaching them to hit with sticks, apply locks etc. etc. your body is the one taking the punishment, again for what?

If you are being paid something than it might make up for your co-pays.

I love teaching, I love teaching the martial arts, I love teaching the FMAs. Nothing thrills me more than seeing a student all of the studen "get it" with a technique. I love the realization or the feeling that comes over you when something you have been doing for several years all the sudden is reaveled in a different light. What is even cooler is when you are working with a student and you see this. I don't want my post to sound like sour grapes and all but I also believe that we as martial artists sometimes live in a fantasty world and this false belief that it is wrong to charge for what we know and that we need to have some master/disciple relationship with our students and we'll get that if we charge nothing.

It definetly is not about just money though, it's much more.

Mark

[Flying Crane]

I have a close friend who has asked if I might teach him some kung fu and/or kenpo. I met him while I was training in capoeira, he was a classmate then. He has kept with capoeira for about 15 years, and has recently begun teaching. He also has a chodan in tae kwon do from when he was in high school, back in the early 1980s, and some aikido experience. He is definitely a dedicated martial artist, and has been a close friend for about 14 years or so.

I was given permission by my kenpo instructor, and my kung fu sifus to teach him, and possibly couple of other people who have expressed some interest. If I teach, especially the close friend and possibly his wife, I will definitely not charge him for it.

I am not opening a school. I have just enough room in my home for 3 or 4 students, if we're careful. I'm not trying to make a living off it, and I expect to have just about zero overhead. So I have the luxury of being very selective about who I would teach. I'll just teach people to whom I WANT to pass on the goods. Nobody else will even know that I am doing it. No advertising, not open for random people to stop in and "sign up".

at this stage in the game, I think the exercise of teaching will benefit my own understanding of my arts greatly. That's my payoff. And like I said, he's a friend. So I see no reason to charge.

Depends on your circumstances.