Down Block for Shoot Defense

[FearlessFreep]

Please see this thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64058

I'm thinking of usages (w or wo mods) to the opening move(s) of Taegeuk Il-Jang for shoot defense. The downblock becomes a sweep of the opponents grasp and the step/punch is slightly angled to become a evasion/redirection

[StuartA]

Though I can see where your going with this (though I dont know Taegeuk Il-Jang), unless you sweep the arms away early on, its no good.. and theres much better double-leg take down defences than a low block. In the Ch'ang Hon system, theres one in the 2nd dan patterns for a start (Eui-Am)...

http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/Photos/IAOMAS_Seminar_2006/IAOMAS-May2006_098.jpg

Technique in action - full resistance.

Stuart

[FearlessFreep]

Basically my thought was to try to apply beginner form motions to high-probability attacks so I wanted to try to work out variations of Taegeuk Il-Jang (first form in the class) that could be used for high-likelihood attacks. Obviously an outer block and high blcok can be used against a lot of punches, but I was thinking of the downblock in the first move but also thinking of defenses against things like bull-rushes, grabs, shoves, etc..

So it's a sorta contrived combination of requirements and I'm still thinking it through on this one...

[StuartA]

Is a leg take-down a "high probability" technique?

It certainaly doent figure on the havoc chart (HAVOC = Habitual Acts of Violence + something something)

Stuart

[Marginal]

Though I can see where your going with this (though I dont know Taegeuk Il-Jang), unless you sweep the arms away early on, its no good.. and theres much better double-leg take down defences than a low block. In the Ch'ang Hon system, theres one in the 2nd dan patterns for a start (Eui-Am)...

Along those lines, I've thought for a while that the front Chancery looks a lot like a modified circular block as far as take down defenses go.
http://members.fortunecity.com/furnacehot/holds/image14.jpg

[FearlessFreep]

Is a leg take-down a "high probability" technique?

It certainaly doent figure on the havoc chart (HAVOC = Habitual Acts of Violence + something something)

Stuart

Not directly no but I got there from thinking of a general rush and grab.

I'd be very interested in seeing the HAVOC chart because that's what I'm thinking of.

I'm really trying to avoid trying to provide explanation for a form technique by resorting to esoteric or unlikely techniques. Starting with some basics and trying to keep it 'likely'

[Errant108]

I really don't see it working against a good shoot. Get someone with a background in wrestling and try it. The best thing against a shot is a sprawl.

"Sweeping the opponent's grasp" is actually not the thing you need to focus on when working against a shot. The forward inertia of your opponent, the guy trying to bowl you over, that is the key problem facing you.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I really don't see it working against a good shoot. Get someone with a background in wrestling and try it. The best thing against a shot is a sprawl.

"Sweeping the opponent's grasp" is actually not the thing you need to focus on when working against a shot. The forward inertia of your opponent, the guy trying to bowl you over, that is the key problem facing you.
Agreed.

Daniel

[Brian R. VanCise]

I really don't see it working against a good shoot. Get someone with a background in wrestling and try it. The best thing against a shot is a sprawl.

"Sweeping the opponent's grasp" is actually not the thing you need to focus on when working against a shot. The forward inertia of your opponent, the guy trying to bowl you over, that is the key problem facing you.

Yes it is going to be very, very, very hard to make that work against someone that is good with takedowns. The low block requires stability. What good takedown artist is going to shoot in when you are stable? http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif I for one am not.

[MJS]

I agree with the idea of being stable. My first preference would be to sprawl. That, IMO, seems to be the defense that has a pretty good success rate. :) It may be possible to step back and execute a strike as the person comes in. Ex: stepping one leg back so now you're facing the opponent sideways. Takes one leg out of play, not to say that they still couldn't get a single leg, but at least you have a leg back to possibly aid in the stability. It may be possible to execute a strike to their neck as they come in as well. As you step back, it may also be possible to use your forearms as a defense.

Blocking the arms...I don't see it as a high percentage move, compared to others that are out there.

Mike

[DavidCC]

I agree with the idea of being stable. My first preference would be to sprawl.
Mike


This seems like an oxymoron to me.


I agree that the arms are not the primary concern, it's the momentum that you have to deal with. Once that mass collides with you, if you are not stable enough, you will be uprooted, then the arms can wrap you up.

Of course it depends on the skill of the shooter... re-directing the arms could redirect the momentum, and if you are moving out of the way as well then that's ok.

But if you have real stability, you change the expected point of contact (earlier), and you initiate contact in such a way as to misalign the shooter, you'll disperse and absorb his momentum, he feels like he's shooting on a tree, and that can't feel good.

[allenjp]

Didn't I see this same question on another thread? I'll say the same thing here as I did there: to defend a shoot takedown you MUST move your feet. If you want to you use a "low block" to strike or push on the back of the neck at the same time you sprawl, it might be effective in that capacity, but to stop a shot with just an arm block...not likely.

[MJS]

This seems like an oxymoron to me.


I agree that the arms are not the primary concern, it's the momentum that you have to deal with. Once that mass collides with you, if you are not stable enough, you will be uprooted, then the arms can wrap you up.

Of course it depends on the skill of the shooter... re-directing the arms could redirect the momentum, and if you are moving out of the way as well then that's ok.

But if you have real stability, you change the expected point of contact (earlier), and you initiate contact in such a way as to misalign the shooter, you'll disperse and absorb his momentum, he feels like he's shooting on a tree, and that can't feel good.

Well, lets look at this. The OP was suggesting to use a downward block. I imagine that the person shooting is going to go for the legs. Are you going to be putting yourself in an awkward position if you attempt a downblock? I would say yes, seeing that the shooter is going to be grabbing around knee level. Are you going to be able to do a downblock at that level without compromising your body? Not likely IMO. A sprawl IMO isn't putting yourself in an awkward position. You're removing the part of the body that is the target, which is the legs.

We have a few things that we can attempt, and if you notice, I gave a few of those examples. Some people may be more comfortable than others on the ground, so they may not prefer the sprawl over something else.

To clarify the part you quoted. If you are not willing to go to the ground with the sprawl, then you will need to have stability with your defense if you prefer to remain upright. Pretty much everything we do standing requires being stable, otherwise the odds of it working are going to be reduced.

Would you do the downward block against a shoot? What would your choice of defense be?

[FearlessFreep]

Didn't I see this same question on another thread?

Yes, I posted it in one forum and linked to it in another to get the opinions of both grapplers and TKD practitioners.

And I've been reading all posts, but I have a tendency to want to comment on every point of agreement or disagreement, so I've back off from commenting every time I wanted to,and just reading and learning : )

[DavidCC]

Would you do the downward block against a shoot?

Me? no.

[MJS]

Me? no.

And the next part.
What would your choice of defense be?

[StuartA]

Though probibly the best defence against a double leg takedown.. there is no sprawl in TKD!

If the OP wanted a TKD related technique, Im not sure about other forms, but Ch'ang Hon has them in Eui-Am tul as I mentioned, and though similar in concept to a sprawl, they use the palms pushing down. Though as another poster stated, moving the legs is pretty vital and again, the pattern app does this as standard.. hence why its the app for this defence.

Stuart

[Kempojujutsu]

You say there are no sprawls in TKD.

If you look at certain techniques a horse stance could be applied as a sprawl. Don't look at it as just a vertical stance dropping your weight. Look at it as a horizontal movement driving your hips away from the attacker.

[DavidCC]

And the next part.
What would your choice of defense be?


That depends on so many variables... but I'll re-iterate this much:

"But if you have real stability, you change the expected point of contact (earlier), and you initiate contact in such a way as to misalign the shooter, you'll disperse and absorb his momentum, he feels like he's shooting on a tree, and that can't feel good. "


and sometimes a sprawl is good too.

or an eye-poke

or a knee to the face

as my favorite Kenpo guy says "It Depends"

[StuartA]

You say there are no sprawls in TKD.
Yes I do!


If you look at certain techniques a horse stance could be applied as a sprawl. Don't look at it as just a vertical stance dropping your weight. Look at it as a horizontal movement driving your hips away from the attacker.
Sorry, as many will know, though I believe that some techniques/applications can contain a bit of "artist license", in the main the pattern technique should rememble the applications.. I dont know any sitting/horse stance movement that resembles a sprawl without some pretty big modifications (like turning the body horizontal, shifting the feet backwards etc.) .. so I still say theres no sprawls in TKD! But hey, if it works for you.. thats great.

Stuart

Ps. Kinda weird a kempo guy telling me whats in and whats not in TKD!!!

[Kempojujutsu]

When doing bunkai-using or coming up with idea's for a movement is. One needs to think in all directions, not take what is for granted.

Example since this thread is about a down block. There are other applcations for a down block:
1. Using it as a throwing technique.
2. Joint lock
3. Downward strike
4. a Choke
This list can go on and on. Some sytems of martial arts have taken so much out of their arts, it's become just a kids version of karate. While others have remained true too the orginal arts. I have studied TKD, my instructor in Kempo was a student of General Choi's. What he was taught back in the 60's is like night and day compared to today's TKD.

[StuartA]

When doing bunkai-using or coming up with idea's for a movement is.
Actually, Bunkai means to take a movement and explain it.. not coming up with ideas just for the sake of giving them meaning! Researching moves is different from pure bunkai!


One needs to think in all directions, not take what is for granted.
Okay thanks, Ill try and remember that! :)


Example since this thread is about...
My response to your response was that there are no sprawl techniques in TKD, to which you replied there is, stating to "think in all directions" and offering "horse stance" as a viable option.

Although in your head this may seem like a good technique to use (a bit like the initial downblock example), in practice it is inherently flawed, as a double leg take down (which the initial post refered to) goes for the thighs and has lots of forward momentum and what ever technique is used as a sprawl or similar needs to move the defenders legs back (which a horse stance doesnt do) to allow the upper bodys weight to drop onto the attackers back aka "the sprawl". Furthermore, simply dropping into horse stance would make no difference to the attack working as anotomically the thighs cannot be spread wide enough to stop both of them still being grabbed, that, the forward momentum of the attack and the lack of stability in the directions needed make it a bad technique to use against such an attack.

You could in theory jump back with both feet at once to create a horse stance whilst falling forward, but then its not a horse stance anymore... but a sprawl or a bad version of it, though unless this is practiced a lot its doubtful it would work anyway.

Like I said, such a technique does not appear in TKD or any TKD patterns that I know of, though thats not to say a "sprawl" cannot be used in a TKD class. Perhaps Kempo has such a technqiue within its forms, but AFAIK TKD doesnt.

The technique I offered as a viable alternative however does appear in TKD, performed exactly as it is shown in the pattern (hence it is continually practiced as it is used and is ready for the next step of applying resisting oppoenents). It has both the body weight and the legs moving back, and instead of using your upper body to push the opponents down, it uses the palms.


There are other applcations for a down block:
1. Using it as a throwing technique.
2. Joint lock
3. Downward strike
4. a Choke
This list can go on and on.
Thanks, Ill have to get hold of a book and look them up :boing1:


Some sytems of martial arts have taken so much out of their arts, it's become just a kids version of karate. While others have remained true too the orginal arts. I have studied TKD, my instructor in Kempo was a student of General Choi's. What he was taught back in the 60's is like night and day compared to today's TKD.
This all sounds like a very interesting subject for another thread (honestly), but I doubt the sprawl was in 60s TKD, just like its not in there now!

Stuart

[Kempojujutsu]

Actually Bunkai in my hurry to post is too analysis the movements. To study the application of the fighting techniques within ones kata. From my instructor, things may not look as they appear in kata.

[StuartA]

Actually Bunkai in my hurry to post is too analysis the movements. To study the application of the fighting techniques within ones kata. From my instructor, things may not look as they appear in kata.

Yes I agree on the first part, that its to analysis the movement and explain it.. but that explanation should be based on how the movement is performed in the kata/pattern/form, which was my point! The horse stance example doesnt fit that, as (apart from it not working IMO) the move as you describe it isnt performed as in a kata/pattern/form to closely resemble a sprawl, certainly its not in TKD (which was my first point).. though I'm open to correction on forms of TKD I dont know of!

If it is, please point out a form/pattern that has a horse stance with the student falling forwards into it, whilst moving their legs backwards or a closely related technique, as opposed to just going into a horse stance, as by that form of analysis we can change any technqiue to fit the desired effect (In theory, but not in practice), which isnt the point of bunkai!

The pieces should fit the puzzel, not the other way round!

Stuart

[matt.m]

Every block is a strike. They are breaking techiniques. I suppose that is why I like the hyungs better than the tae guek's. However, after a while they start to more or less blend.

My point is this, I have started il jang and chong gi, the first two forms no matter how you slice it they both begin with a left turn and downward block with the left arm.

I have broken 2 - 1and a quarter pine with the down block.

[punisher73]

As a strike to the head/neck as you use evasive footwork, I can see it.
If you use the reverse motion of the downblock you can perform a crossface/neck crank to counter it as some wrestlers do.

Just because a technique isn't spelled out in a kata, DOES NOT mean that the style did not have it in there. Remember, Okinawa had it's own form of wrestling that almost everyone played. The early pioneers of karate would have been familiar with this and knew how to counter it. If you look at the "Bubishi" you will see pictures of using single leg takedowns. So again, early karatekas would have been familiar with both executing a takedown and defending against it.

But, I would also agree that a "horse stance" as a sprawl defense it stretching it a little. The horse stance is used for a grappling defense, but it is more in line with the greco-roman upper body clinching to provide stability.