When does it happen?

[Kirk]

In my school, there are few 3rd browns. We have some black
belts that show up often, some 3rd browns that I haven't seen in
months. I think the highest rank (minus b.b.'s who are
instructors, really) that regularly show up are 1st and 2nd
browns. All the b.b.'s in my school can move. It looks awesome
when they do it. Often times, in a tech circle, they'll go off adding
all kinds of stuff to a technique. You'll be standing there, they do
the tech and then you get this barrage of hits all over your body
at a RAPID rate! It's amazing to see, and to feel! Truly
awesome! I've been to a few seminars, and a camp in my year
and a half of studying, I've got to see people outside my school,
and I've noticed ... no one under black really can move in the
manner I'm speaking of.

Move, like the guys in the When Kenpo Strikes (http://www.crunchmedia.com/Media/Videos/index.htm) video. I show it
to my friends, and I say now THAT'S kenpo! They like what they
see, and then go "can you do that"? I'm like ummm .. hell no.
The next question is ... how long until you can move like that. My
answer is ... I dunno. But in thinking about it, and reflecting on
my limited experience, I can't say I've seen anyone under black
do it. So my question is ... how much knowledge does it take? I
understand that every student is different, but in general terms ...
How much? What rank?

Don't worry, I won't hold anyone to anything, I'm just curious.
I understand body types, commitment, etc. Just Generally
speaking, there's plenty in my school under me that move
better than I do. Is it a confidence thing?

Also, in all fairness, I haven't had the opportunity to witness
EVERY non black belt move freely, going to town, whipping stuff
out.

:asian:

[tarabos]

that's a tough question all right. one that i don't think there's a definitive answer to. everyone's different. plus i've never seen the when kenpo strikes videos so i can't see what you're referring too :).

maybe the question is...if they had no belts on and you knew none of them, would you be able to guess their rank or years of experience...? i doubt it.

you probably want me to take a stab at a time frame though huh? eh....3-5 years. :idunno:

[tarabos]

also, the longer you are in kenpo, the slower their pace will seem to you.

when i saw my instructor bang out some techniques the first time i was floored. now i've been seeing it all the time for over ten years and while it's still impressive, it doesn't seem so super-human anymore.

people in the movies used to look faster to me as well...like van damme back in the day...now he just looks like a fool with his crappy outside cresent kick special.

[jfarnsworth]

Again as Tarabos said is there really a definitive answer, probably not. However I will say when anyone has the ability to move out of the "mechanical" stage then you will get your answer. It takes years and good quality instruction to get beyond the mechanical stage.

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Kirk

... how long until you can move like that. My
answer is ...

:asian:

I'm too friggin' old to move like that and I'm a BB... :wah:

[Michael Billings]

It depends on your aptitude and your teacher's attention to "How you move" rather than "what you do."

You have to learn material to "progress", but if you practiced 3 techniques for 6 months, with an instructor who knows how to teach explosive, relaxed, correct movement - that in that timeframe you could learn how to move better? Of course you would. But who is willing to let go of the ego and other material and make the sacrifice, and pay the money, to learn just 3 techniques.

There is the compromise that most students make. Get the material and over the years learn pieces of natural explosive relaxed movements in different techniques ... then it comes together and generalizes to other techniques, forms, sparring. Sometimes it happens in sparring first, or in forms. Regardless, if you recognize the "feel" of correct movement, you can start working on making similar movements closer to how you visualize yourself moving.

Patience little grasshopper, and hard work!!!

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com (http://kenpo-texas.com)

[Katie Simmons]

As everyone so far has said, everyone's different. It all depends on attitude and how much you practice, to a certain extent. However, usually around green belt, something clicks and they just get it. It's like suddenly everything falls into place. They start to move. It's awesome to watch. So, I'd say no later than 2nd brown.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Katie Simmons
As everyone so far has said, everyone's different. It all depends on attitude and how much you practice, to a certain extent. However, usually around green belt, something clicks and they just get it. It's like suddenly everything falls into place. They start to move. It's awesome to watch. So, I'd say no later than 2nd brown.

While I totally respect those who have posted, thank you Katie
for giving me a general guesstimate. I do totally agree, it
depends on multiple factors, but one couldn't possibly do it
without the knowledge. I guess I should've asked at what belt
do they have the knowledge to move that way.

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by tarabos
people in the movies used to look faster to me as well...like van damme back in the day...now he just looks like a fool with his crappy outside cresent kick special.



LOL....That's some funny stuff....:rofl:

[MinnieMin]

Originally posted by Katie Simmons
However, usually around green belt, something clicks and they just get it.

Mr. Billings said that to me once. :)

[SRyuFighter]

A buddy of mine can move like nobody's business even when we were white belts he could hang with Black Belts speed wise. So maybe it's just a natural thing for a lot of people. I have gotten faster but not anywehre near him.

[SasPlume]

First of all, DAMN!!! What a wicked video! That's gotta be some of the best Kenpo on video that i've seen.

The only thing that i can say or suggest is to be like water. Ever flowing no matter what's in its path. when a rock pops up it doesn't stop it reacts with a change in movement from static to dynamic, from linear to circular.

SasPlume

[desert_dragon]

After 11/2 years you are most likely still moving in a mechanical stage. By the time you get to around 2nd brown you should be well into the fluid stage and possibly the spontaeous stage where grafting and adapting are second nature. You have to learn to relax and let it fly. You will soon relize that techniques teach you the ideal phase. In reality, the conceptual fighter relies on the spontaneous stage to react to what ever. A right hook punch does not absolutely mean you have to respond with five swords. Keep an open mind and relax, basically it will come when you stop worrying about it coming.:D

[pesilat]

My instructor told me once, "There comes a time when you cease to do martial arts and you begin to become martial arts."

I don't think it's a specific moment in time. It's a process. I guarantee that if you ask any of those BBs at your school, "When did it happen?" The answer you're likely to get is, "I don't know, I'm not sure it has happened."

They definitely won't be able to give you a definite answer as to when.

I think there are a series of "clicks." You hit a plateau and hang there for a while. Maybe even backslide a little. Then, one day, click, and you jump forward well beyond your plateau in an amazing moment of clarity. Then that clarity starts slipping away, but you don't slip all the way back to your plateau. And now you've "seen the future", so to speak. You know you can get there again.

I think this happens over and over again. But you don't really recognize your progress. You just keep working and training; fighting for each incremental step forward. Then one day, someone comes up and says, "Man! You're awesome. When did you notice the difference?"

Then you'll realize two things.
A: that you have arrived somewhere interesting
B: that those senior ranks weren't kidding when they saiid, "I don't know" in answer to your similar question

:)

Mike

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Again as Tarabos said is there really a definitive answer, probably not. However I will say when anyone has the ability to move out of the "mechanical" stage then you will get your answer. It takes years and good quality instruction to get beyond the mechanical stage.

As soon as Mr. Farnsworth says something goofy, it takes but a second to start flowing. I'm like a time bomb!:eek:

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by pesilat
I think there are a series of "clicks." You hit a plateau and hang there for a while. Maybe even backslide a little. Then, one day, click, and you jump forward well beyond your plateau in an amazing moment of clarity. Then that clarity starts slipping away, but you don't slip all the way back to your plateau. And now you've "seen the future", so to speak. You know you can get there again.

I think this happens over and over again. But you don't really recognize your progress. You just keep working and training; fighting for each incremental step forward.

I certainly can't recognize how much I progress, but I dunno for sure when I reach a plateau, because I get kinda desperate with trying to do things better and not being able to.

Usually the learning recovers sometime soon after you relax a little, which I think is when you've just absorbed and processed all you've learnt in the previous months. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
I certainly can't recognize how much I progress, but I dunno for sure when I reach a plateau, because I get kinda desperate with trying to do things better and not being able to.

Usually the learning recovers sometime soon after you relax a little, which I think is when you've just absorbed and processed all you've learnt in the previous months. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd say that's about right.

It's also one of the reasons that some people can go away for a bit and when they come back they seem a lot better than before they left. By taking a break from training and trying to force the improvement, their subconscious mind is able to freely mull over things and adjust.

This doesn't work for everyone, but when you reach a plateau and start struggling, you might try it some time. Explain to your instructor that you need to take a week off training to let things settle in your mind and body a little bit. During that week, don't think about training at all. At some point, something will likely click (and it'll most likely come screaming in from out of left field when you're trying to get to sleep :) ). When it does, note it, maybe practice it a little, but don't fixate on it. Let it roll by.

It's kind of like "macro meditation." Chances are that when you return to training, you'll either be past your plateau, or, at least, you'll be able to see the end of it. You'll likely be more focused and have better energy.

Like I said, this doesn't work for everyone and it doesn't always work in general. But try it a few times when you get stuck in a rut and see if it helps you.

Also, here's a great article about plateaus (and some other stuff) that one of my instructors wrote: http://www.joerlansdale.com/shenchuan/newsletter/volume2/issue1cover.htm

Mike

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
As soon as Mr. Farnsworth says something goofy, it takes but a second to start flowing. I'm like a time bomb!:eek:

I'm not sure what you're getting at but I don't think I like it:eek: :mad:

[stacks]

in the time i have spent in kenpo and with all the students i have had from white to B.B. the one thing i tell all my students who are in awe at the movements or speed of another student, I tell them to do their technique or kata THEIR way not his/her way. the beautiful thing about kenpo is that when you are taught a move or form and you honed up your skill to it, your speed and balance is yours not like the other guy. the same thing i tell my fighters (fight your fight not his/hers) there is no wrong way or slower, there is only your way, it will happen and you won't even see it, it will all of a sudden just be there

if you chase 2 rabbits, both will get away "focus"

stacks :asian:

[pesilat]

Originally posted by stacks
in the time i have spent in kenpo and with all the students i have had from white to B.B. the one thing i tell all my students who are in awe at the movements or speed of another student, I tell them to do their technique or kata THEIR way not his/her way. the beautiful thing about kenpo is that when you are taught a move or form and you honed up your skill to it, your speed and balance is yours not like the other guy. the same thing i tell my fighters (fight your fight not his/hers) there is no wrong way or slower, there is only your way, it will happen and you won't even see it, it will all of a sudden just be there

if you chase 2 rabbits, both will get away "focus"

stacks :asian:

Very good point.

And, I'm going to take a tangent here but I think it's still relevant to the discussion, one of the best ways to develop speed and power and accruacy is through slow training. Running things slow - be it forms, kata, techniques, etc. - ingrains them into your muscles better. Speed and power will come over time. The better ingrained the movements are, the faster and more powerful they will be because they will still be fluid, economical, and have good body mechanics. They'll also likely be more accurate.

Anyone can flail quickly. But it takes time, patience, and dedicated slowness to reach a level where you can "flail quickly" with fluid power and accuracy.

Moving slowly and precisely through the basics is one of the hardest things to get people to understand. They want to come in and bang things out fast and hard from the get-go and this, in the long run, stunts their growth.

Mike

[Michael Billings]

Keep the faith, train hard, train consistantly, and care about the quality of your training. Just being there every day is not enough. ... or is it?

It is if you are there say 3,520 days, every day, and still refuse to test for Black. Maybe you have a home, but it is not the right home for you. Realize, I literally mean 10 years.

I know some really fine Brown Belts who will never strap on a Black. They have the ability, skills, attitude, are excellent teachers, but refuse the next step. They just can't see themselves in a Black Belt. These guys would never demean or ask the value of a Black Belt, or questions it's value the way some people have to. Rather they set standards for themselves totally unobtainable by anyones standards. They have been weighed, they have been measured, and they found themselves wanting (A Knight's Tale.) But the rest of us consider them some of the Blackest Brown Belts in the world, who should have been Black years ago. A couple I know are at 15 or more years of training. They for sure don't get why people think they have to have a Black in 4 years or 5. I don't either sometimes.

All instructors know there are plateaus when we risk losing, and do lose students. Orange Belt is a common one, as is Green. Then there is the Browns who are happy where they are. Another level is Shodan, or 1st Black. That was the goal, they got it, they move on. Some move "well" some don't. But what does it matter? You stay long enough, train hard enough, have the right teacher, and you will learn how to flow, rip, tear, and explode, with a relaxed power that is amazing to others. Just perserver, with the right teacher.

It comes when it comes and rank does not have anything to do with it, or it does not have to.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com (http://kenpo-texas.com)

[stacks]

Originally posted by pesilat
Very good point.


Anyone can flail quickly. But it takes time, patience, and dedicated slowness to reach a level where you can "flail quickly" with fluid power and accuracy.

Mike
agreed, any monkey can punch and kick. I tell all my students "you had to crawl to walk - walk to run " you have to start with the basics and work your way from there. the guy on the top of the mountain did not fall there
stacks:karate:

[theletch1]

Wow, Pesilat, I thought I was the only one that did kata and self defense at what I call "tai-chi" speed! It works for me when I'm just learning a new technique or a new kata and once I've learned the basics of the move I'll continue to do the move at slow motion to make sure I have all the angles correct. By the time I've done it SLOWLY a bunch of times I can normally bang it out at an impressive speed CORRECTLY. Speed is great but not worth anything if you're not doing anything but flopping around.
I don't think there is any particular moment when speed happens. For me it's been a gradual thing and I still have a long way to go. I've had brown 3s tell me I'm really getting a lot faster than when I started (I'm a green now) but I can't see it. I guess that is the way it is supposed to happen. Don't concentrate so much on getting fast and just allow experience to make you fast.

respectfully,
theletch1 :asian:

[pesilat]

Originally posted by theletch1
Wow, Pesilat, I thought I was the only one that did kata and self defense at what I call "tai-chi" speed!

Nope :)

It's something that's been stressed to me by several of my instructors. And something that I've found to be completely true over the years.

Speaking of Tai Chi, I'm going to go check out a Tai Chi class in an hour :) If the guy's any good - and, unless he's flat-out lying about his background, he should be - then I'll start training in Tai Chi every Mon/Wed.

Mike

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I'm not sure what you're getting at but I don't think I like it:eek: :mad:

Good, keep looking out thru the curtains, you'll see me waiting for you!:cool:

[satans.barber]

I don't think I can move like that, at 1st brown :(

I can snap out the pre-set techniques OK, but if I have to make something random up then it's never quite in the same style, or at least it doesn't feel that way. Without taping myself I wouldn't know!

I do think it's a gradual thing though, rather than a moment of clarity as some people have suggested. It's like playing instruments, you don't suddenly become good one day, it's just years of practice and refinement, like anything else.

Ian.

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Good, keep looking out thru the curtains, you'll see me waiting for you!:cool:

:eek: (peeks through the curtains)

[marshallbd]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Again as Tarabos said is there really a definitive answer, probably not. However I will say when anyone has the ability to move out of the "mechanical" stage then you will get your answer. It takes years and good quality instruction to get beyond the mechanical stage. Could you elaborate on what you mean by the "mechanical Stage"?

[Michael Billings]

I think at my 1st Black, I may have been still "Primitive", or maybe just real fast and hard "Mechanical", with occassional burst of the Spontaneous Stage.

Primitive Stage - the stage of learning where moves are crudely executed. See also: Mechanical Stage, Spontaneous Stage.

Mechanical Stage - the stage of learning where movements are clarified and defined. Students will often be more equipped to verbalize answers rather than physically utilize them.

Spontaneous Stage - stage of learning where the student's reactions are natural.

See here for more definitions:

Kenpo-Texas.com Link (http://kenpo-texas.com/kenpoterminology.html#M)

-Michael

[KenpoDave]

[i]I can snap out the pre-set techniques OK, but if I have to make something random up then it's never quite in the same style, or at least it doesn't feel that way. [/B]

Check your opponents/partners. You should be able to tell by their reaction, or ask them.


I do think it's a gradual thing though, rather than a moment of clarity as some people have suggested. It's like playing instruments, you don't suddenly become good one day, it's just years of practice and refinement, like anything else.[/B]

I think it is both. A gradual climb with intermittent spikes. But I like what Katie said about green belt. I tell my students that it is like up until green, you have been learning the notes and the chords, but now we are going to start playing the song.

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

I know some really fine Brown Belts who will never strap on a Black. They have the ability, skills, attitude, are excellent teachers, but refuse the next step. They just can't see themselves in a Black Belt. These guys would never demean or ask the value of a Black Belt, or questions it's value the way some people have to. Rather they set standards for themselves totally unobtainable by anyones standards.

Excellent topic! I had wondered about this lately.

I just don't understand.... If a person put in the time and effort to go from white all the way through to brown, why stop? What is "unattainable" about getting to black?

Why should the BB test be radically different than testing for lesser belts (other than being more intense and longer)? Is it the thesis? Are the members of the evaluation board to be feared? Is the cost of BB testing prohibitive? What reasons have been given for stopping at brown?

- Ceicei

[marshallbd]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I think at my 1st Black, I may have been still "Primitive", or maybe just real fast and hard "Mechanical", with occassional burst of the Spontaneous Stage.

Primitive Stage - the stage of learning where moves are crudely executed. See also: Mechanical Stage, Spontaneous Stage.

Mechanical Stage - the stage of learning where movements are clarified and defined. Students will often be more equipped to verbalize answers rather than physically utilize them.

Spontaneous Stage - stage of learning where the student's reactions are natural.

See here for more definitions:

Kenpo-Texas.com Link (http://kenpo-texas.com/kenpoterminology.html#M)

-Michael Thanks Michael......I added the link to my favorites so that I can refer to it often. It should help me greatly when reading these posts until I can master the terminology